Ologies with Alie Ward - Ceramology (POTTERY) with Potted History’s Graham Taylor & Sarah Lord Taylor

Episode Date: September 10, 2025

Porcelain. Earthenware. China. Archaeology. Stoneware. Anthropology. Amphora. Throwing wheels. We got it all. Master potters, history aficionados and Potted History’s icons Sarah Lord Taylor and Graham Taylor are here for our 8th anniversary episode. We get the dirt on ceramics versus pottery, where clay comes from, if there’s enough in the world, how can you spot clay in the wild, how long have humans being making pots, what were the first ceramics, what is glaze exactly, why did your pots explode, what excavations of stoneware have revealed about our ancient ancestors, the Venus figurines of history, the hidden ingredients that might surprise you, and how to feel about thrift store finds. Also: how to bond with a potter instantly.  Visit the Potted History website and follow them on Instagram, TikTok, and YouTubeDonations went to Cancer Research UK and Little LiftsMore episode sources and linksOther episodes you may enjoy: 5th Anniversary Special! Xylology (LUMBER), Experimental Archeology (OLD TOOLS/ATLATLS), Canistrumology (BASKET WEAVING), Museology (MUSEUMS), Indigenous Pedology (SOIL SCIENCE), Geology (ROCKS), Scatology (POOP)400+ Ologies episodes sorted by topicSmologies (short, classroom-safe) episodesSponsors of OlogiesTranscripts and bleeped episodesBecome a patron of Ologies for as little as a buck a monthOlogiesMerch.com has hats, shirts, hoodies, totes!Follow Ologies on Instagram and BlueskyFollow Alie Ward on Instagram and TikTokEditing by Mercedes Maitland of Maitland Audio Productions and Jake ChaffeeManaging Director: Susan HaleScheduling Producer: Noel DilworthTranscripts by Aveline Malek Website by Kelly R. DwyerTheme song by Nick Thorburn

Oh, hey, it's yesterday's pants, also known as today's pants. Allie Ward, let's ruin a manicure in the best way possible. It's Ologies' eighth year this week, eighth anniversary, rather. This is episode 467. It is our anniversary. So I checked on the traditional gift guide for an eighth anniversary, and it's pottery, folks. Finally, also, you can enjoy our fifth anniversary episode on Wood, which we did about reclaimed lumber. Loved it.

But Ceremology, it comes from the Greek seramos for pottery, which was easy. Not only is this an anniversary episode, but it's also a two-for because we've got two guests and they're both equally the best. It's a parent-child duo of accomplished ceramic artists. Plus, there is another sibling who helps run the business and there's Jess in the studio, although they're not on this interview. But many of you are freaking out, freaking out, wigan, just seeing their names in the title. But if you don't know their work, they run the studio potted history as well as it's educational and very cool YouTube channel.

And for decades, they've been making museum quality replicas of these ancient ceramics for institutions and museums and heritage sites and private collectors and TV. And on top of that, they are very pro accessibility and they've run workshops on ancient craftsmanship for universities and lay people alike. And they give advice for research projects. They are so into the craft in the history of pottery, there was no one else I would have rather sat down with via a video chat from Northumberland, England. Love them. And before we get to it, just a quick thanks to all the potters and the non-potters via patreon.com slash ologies who submitted questions for this episode. Thanks to everyone in Ologies merch from Ologiesmerch.com. Thank you to the folks who help out the show now going into its ninth year, which is the longest I've ever held a job by leaving reviews, which helped the show so much. I read all of them, including this. recent one from Dr. Tess West, who wrote, Smells Like Sharpened Pencils. Each episode of Ologies has that slightly giddy sensation of your favorite teacher pulling out a fresh transparency sheet for the overhead projector

and captivating the imagination of every kid in the glass. Also, thank you to Bunny who left the review, minus some stars because we have swears in the show. Bunny, we made you a whole show. It's called Smologies, S-M-O-L-G-I-E-S. They are linked right in the show notes. They're in their own filth-free feed of classroom-safe, kid-friendly episodes. They're called Smologies.

We made them for you. I hope you enjoy them. No swears. Smologies. Also, thanks to sponsors of the show who make it possible to donate to a cause of the ologist choosing each week. Okay, grab Grandpa's old dress shirt, reverse it as a smock. Let's get into an art project on the difference between ceramics and pottery, where clay

comes from, if there's enough in the world, how you can spot clay in the wild, how long of humans been making pots? What were the first ceramics? What is glaze exactly? Why did your pots explode? What's porcelain? When was the wheel invented? Not that wheel, but the other wheel. What excavations of stoneware have revealed about our ancient ancestors, the Venus figurines of history, the hidden ingredients that might surprise you, how to feel about thrift store finds, and how to bond with a potter with master potters, artists, history aficionados, and icons of pottery. Lord Taylor and Graham Taylor, what you will love. You know something or if you've cut something, we edit a lot.

Trust me, I couldn't do it without edits. but the first thing I'll have you say is if you could tell me your first and last name and also the pronouns you use just to make sure we say anything right. Graham Taylor, he, him. Sarah Lord and she, her, I forgot, for the long day. Thank you so much for talking to me. I know it's evening over there. And now y'all are a father-daughter duo.

Yeah, we are. Potters and also in the archaeology realm. Yeah, ceramics brings together. there are all sorts of different bits and pieces, and it's sort of the merging of the four ancient elements, you know, earth, air, fire, and water. And that's sort of appropriate, because when you make clay things at a microscopic scale,

you're joining platelets together, etc. So we sort of merge archaeology, experimental archaeology, and geology, because, of course, we're using the raw materials of the earth. So you've sort of got an overlap of ologies going on. And while I don't think there is a specific... for making ceramic objects. It's on the cusp there of all sorts of things.

Also, side note, we do have a fabulous episode on experimental archaeology, all about something called atlattles. I'll link it in the show notes. You use one at the dog park. You don't even know it. Your work definitely involves a lot of archaeology. That's one reason I wanted to talk to you both is because I was really torn between having an episode just about the making of pottery versus the history of it.

and that's what you do, which is so amazing. But I understand, Graham, you have been a potter in ceramics for a long time, and Sarah, you grew up around the studio. Graham, how did you get started? How long you got? Basically, I grew up where we are now in Northumberland, and there's lots of archaeology everywhere, and I was always fascinated living in this landscape of the history of it.

Yeah, I was one of these weird kids who would spend his time wandering around ancient monuments rather than going and playing football, you know. But I also was artistic, but interested in science, but I didn't want my science too sciencey, I suppose. So I ended up doing an arts foundation course, largely with the intention of doing graphics, because that was sort of what I knew, went into a ceramic studio and went. Hey, this is it. I don't really believe in any sort of spiritual stuff going on, but it was like I'd done it before. You know, you sort of got that feeling of, yeah, yeah, this just feels right, just feels like the right thing. And yeah, ceramics took me as an undergraduate student. I became interested in the idea that what I was doing had this heritage that went back thousands of years. And in that, there were bits of technology which weren't really used

anymore. And I went in search of that in order to bring it into sort of contemporary practice. So I was making teapots, cups, sauces, jugs, all the things. I'm talking to American noise, pitchers, pitchers. Okay, ologites, you're all over the globe. But yes, as an American, I did not know that pitchers were called jugs by the rest of the English-speaking world. Honestly, when someone says jugs around me, it's usually not even about a vessel of any sort. Now, another word we don't use enough, ewer, which is like a vase or vase shaped jug or pitcher in America, usually quite fancy. And apparently if you look up ewer, the most prominent example will be this tall ornate silver affair with spirals and these floral motifs. And it's the trophy for the international racing competition with yachts from all over the world, which is called the America's Cup, even though

America may not even be competing. Also, branding-wise, an America's Cup would just be called a pitcher. But no one who owns a yacht wants to compete for the pitcher, unless perhaps it's pitcher of beer, which is the only time the Brits call their jugs a pitcher. But let's get back to the clay at hand. And in that, that developed into a hunt for ancient technology. When I graduated, my wife and I both worked in the pottery at that stage, Sarah's mom. And we ended up at a pottery. in Scotland, where we worked for three years, and then got offered a job out in Lesotho in Southern Africa, where I found myself among people who were still making pots in the way people would have done here in the Neolithic. They were digging their own clays, hand-forming the pots, firing them in open fires. And it was just wonderful to see that that technology was still alive and still being used. And it sort of grew out of that. And eventually, when I came back to the UK in the end. We set a pottery workshop and yeah, that became the sort of thrust of the workshop.

As for Sarah joining in, well, yeah, I mean, she'll no doubt tell you, as a kid, they enjoyed the pottery workshop as somewhere to play and run round and jump into the piles of shredded paper that we had to pack the pots in and stuff like that. I'm not sure the people at work for you enjoyed us being there. No, no, no. We were a bit of a nuisance. But, No, it was good fun to kind of just, yeah, to see all this production. It was lovely. Sarah will tell you herself, she went off on a completely different route and came back to the pottery. Basically, what happened was we had a Christmas dinner one year when I'd been ridiculously busy running all over the country doing demos and workshops and things like that. And the kids said to me, Dad, you need an apprentice.

And I said, well, who'd want to work with me? And Sarah very foolishly said she would. So yeah. So did my middle sister Claire, but yeah. And I know Claire is also in midwifery and does more of the tech and admin, but Sarah, did you feel like when you first started working with Clay, did it feel familiar to you? Or did you feel like there was a learning curve to getting the hang of it? No, it definitely did feel familiar. So my background was actually textile. So I studied costume design. And I worked for many years at Scottish Opera doing men's suits. So I'd always did. done stuff with my hands. When I started throwing, Dad tried to teach us to throw when we were kids and we just weren't interested. You know, and you're like, oh, boring dad's stuff. We've got other things to do. And I regret that now. But when I came to start throwing, it did feel like I understood what I was doing. It didn't feel entirely alien to me. And I love being in the workshop, yeah, sitting, kind of making things. And the history I find so fast.

I think I'd never enjoyed dates and things like that. So wars and guns and all of that stuff, not interested. But when you've got like, these people were here and they were eating this and they were, you know, clothing themselves in this and you've got objects with fingerprints on and you can start to think about stories, it's the real people doing real everyday things, not the kings of the queens and all of that. That's what I love so much about what we do is because we're looking into that everyday life of real people. And I love that. That's such a good point.

I feel like most of, yeah, history that we're taught does focus on monarchy's wealth or killing. And that's such a great point. I'm wondering, too, we're talking about ceramics and throwing and pots. And this is a very stupid question, but that's like what I'm here for. There's no such thing. No this thing is a stupid question. We'll say not smart. But, like, what is the difference between pottery and ceramics and porcelain?

What are they different clays? Are they different techniques? What is it? Well, it all starts with clay, I suppose, except that glass also sort of falls into the category of ceramic as well. So it's a little bit blurred at the edges. Yes, glass is a ceramic. And according to chapter three of the textbook, biomaterials, artificial origins, and tissue engineering. A ceramic is something hard that's inorganic, not metal, and molded and set

at a high temperature. And they can be crystalline or not. Now, major characteristics of ceramics are their high hardness, their insulating properties of heat and electricity and corrosion resistance. Also, they're brittle and they fracture. Brick is a ceramic. Cement is a ceramic. A pumpkin's a very. But basically, clay is an aluminum hydrocylicus. I beg your pardon? So, what does that mean? Basically, it means that you've got this very strange material which is composed of little flat platelets. And those little flat platelets, when you add water to them, will glide over one another because their little chemical bonds are weak enough to let you shape them. So it's this wonderful material that you can manipulate around and you can shape into things. When you've dried it

out and you have to thoroughly dry it out, and we might talk about firing things later, what you've got is a pot which still has some chemically combined moisture in there. And when you start to heat it up, the first few hundred degrees are really quite dangerous because it can turn to super steam in there and blow the whole thing apart. And anybody who did pottery at school probably had their teacher tell them that they'd left air bubbles in the clay because, and their pot blew up and ruined everybody else's work. and in actual fact it's just the teacher was firing the kiln too darn fast. That's all it is. Yeah, so no guilt, no guilt to anyone who blew up something in the kill.

No guilt, no guilt. But as you reach about 550 degrees Celsius, those platelets start to melt together on the edges. They start to fuse together at the edges. And it's once you cross that boundary that you end up with ceramic, you end up with pottery, which basically means that if you wet it again, it's not going to turn soft and moldable again. This is the point of no return. And that takes you up to 550 Celsius. Once you get higher, depending on the type of clay, those bonds start to fuse more and more and more until you get up into really high temperatures like 12,300 Celsius.

And that demands special clays, fairly pure clays, what we'd call call cailonite, which is the stuff they dig up in Cornwall here, but originates with the Chinese porcelains in a place called Jing to Jen, where they were digging up this wonderful material, which you could heat up to these extremely high temperatures. And it basically fuses the whole clay together. So much so, and you probably know with porcelain, if you hold it up to the light, you can see light through it. It's just this wonderful material, which allows you to create things, which are so remarkably hard. So at 1,300 degrees Celsius or nearly 2,400 degrees Fahrenheit, those bonds really start to fuse. And yeah, when people say, let's use the good China, dear,

that is China with a lowercase C. Even though this type of pottery was developed a few thousand years ago in China, it's also called porcelain. And that's from the French word for a type of shell due to this glassification and this translucent property owing to the really tiny or fine particle clay, which is called Kaelin, K-A-O-L-I-N. Now, K-O-L-L-I-N occurred. Now, K-E-L-L-L-N occurred. in nature when minerals like feldspar decompose out of granite and if you are horny for rock info we have a great geology two-parter that will link for you to make fine china you need this cayolin and some minerals like the soft stone alabaster which was later swapped out for feldspar because you could fire it at lower temperatures now other things you could add to this fine white clay calen are

bones, straight up, ground-up bones that have been set on fire and then mashed around. Some bone china contains nearly half-ground-up bone. And why was this? Oh, well, one porcelain maker had a shop right near a bunch of slaughterhouses and was like, holy smokes, boy, howdy, why not add some freaking bone to this stuff? Looks great. What do we call it? Bone China? No notes. Moving on. Love it. And of course, here in Europe, sort of 15, 16th, 17th century, people went berserk for it. I mean, to the expense they were paying huge sums of money for this stuff coming from China. And I have a couple of little pieces from a shipwreck, which are very precious. They're lovely little, so thinly made, so beautifully made. And this, you know, takes me back to

sort of what it is that makes us do this, because most times when you're working on a piece, it ends up giving you this remarkable respect for these craftspeople of the past that they were producing this super fine, wonderful stuff, or really elaborate pieces of work, or they've worked out special ways of making things. Often when we're demonstrating at public venues and things like that, you will get somebody who comes along who, in their question, imply that how did these quite stupid people in the past manage to do this sort of thing? And you go, no, no, no, no, recalibrate. They understood things we don't understand anymore, and they knew about. materials. Yeah, they probably couldn't operate an iPhone, but at the same time, they could

create these wonderful things. And they would probably be able to learn how to operate the iPhone quicker than you'd be able to work out how to make this. It's hot, you know. So, yeah. And what about the types of clay? I mean, I think about like terracotta clay and I think about red clay and white clay's. Are there different types that are regional? And do you have to purify them before you make something with them? Is that why there might be bubbles that explode or? I love these people. Well, here in Britain, the far south, we have the China clays, which drove the sort of industrial revolution, white and blue China that went all over the world. This is not the only place you get China clays. I mean, they're called China clays because originally they came from

China. But they are extremely pure clays in that. what kale and I, this wonderful chemical that makes clay possible is, is decomposed floor spa from granite. So it's a volcanic rock, which over millions of years has decomposed through other gases being forced up through it. And I went down a hole looking up abandoned kale in quarries, where the clay is washed out from the decomposing granite. And when I say I went down a hole, it's because I found one video where a guy's on a day hike and is walking around the rim of a quarry lake. And what he thinks is the earth is really just a thin crust over a slurry of like quicksand texture. Mineral slop.

And he gets sucked in with one foot and then he scrambles up the granite. He almost dies, but he lives to tell the tale. And he posted this video to be like, heads up, be careful when you're in an abandoned clay quarry lest you be suction into Mother Earth's wet grasp once again. But yeah, this clay can be moved around the earth's surface by water flows or even ice sheets over time. And it can get finer or it can pick up like the rock equivalent of lint as it goes, sort of. So in the north of Britain, you have what we call boulder clays, which tell you a lot about what the clay is like. It's full of rocks. But people have exploited that clay for thousands of years because if you wash it, if you mix it with lots

of water and you settle it out, you can get a perfectly good clay. But now it's got other stuff mixed with it, mostly iron oxide is what makes terracotta. It makes it red. So the red clay comes out of the ground looking mucky brown is what it comes out of the ground looking, sometimes yellow, but it'll fire to a beautiful red colour. And depending on the amount of iron oxide in there and things, it'll fire red. Primary clays where they've been deposited, at or near to where the granite decomposed will often be white or light colors and light cream. So the pure clay picks up other stuff. So it may vary in mineral or metal content and strength and have different color or texture. So the rougher clays may be used for like earthenware,

which is fired at a lowish temperature. It's a bit porous, not usually glazed. It is certainly not coffee mug material, but it's good for planters or roof tiles. Now, stoneware is kind of a step up and it's fired a little hotter, making it less porous and it's better for dishes and things. But weird to think, whenever you handle ceramics, not only are you using a product of just innumerable generations passing down techniques one by one, but also from the very terra of a place you maybe have never been or never will be with minerals gathered through the eons. I plan to sit outside tomorrow morning over a cup of something hot and cry about it.

So, yes, over the whole world, you will get different kinds of clay that have formed in different places. Are there places that are clayless? Are there regions that just were not blessed with stashes of clay? Well, Scandinavia's not blessed with lots of clay, largely because of the mountainous nature of it. It hasn't sort of yielded that. As a result, when you look at, say, Viking pots, they're often made of soapstone. They're often steertite or something like that. So they're carving them rather than forming them from clay. So gossiping about clay types, do you have, you can admit it here, but do you have favorite clays to work with or any that you don't? Yes. Yes, so do. And I mean, what we often do is a lot of the time we are making pots

that are going to be used for handling collections and for displays in museums or just for collectors around the world who want to put them on their shelves. And we need to be certain of how they're going to behave. So what we generally do in those cases is we are taking commercially prepared clays and messing them up. The people who went to all the effort of getting these clays nice and clean would be horrified by what we do to the clay sometimes. But I like working with quite gritty clays because I tend to make big sort of amphora and sort of larger pots and things. But Sarah, of course, does very fine modelling and very fine sculpting.

So she does a lot of the figurines and stuff like that. So she obviously works with a lot finer clay. So I think we would debate what was the best clay, definitely it was. Yes, definitely. But I do also have clays that I hate to work with, but they're really functional. I made dad a gift of a little figure of a horse and rider, and I put lots of paper into it because the paper sort of sits inside

the clay and almost creates a skeleton that means it holds together more easily and isn't going to snap because when clay's dried out, it's so brittle, it's very, very fine. So it's absolutely horrible to work with. It's a bit like, you know, when Blu-Tac gets hot and it gets kind of like that sort of stretchy, kind of sticky. I had never heard of Blu-Tac, and in fact-checking this aside. I spelled it a number of different ways thinking it was some kind of clay or maybe a medical substance and then realize that blue tack is the sticky putty that you can use to adhere posters on walls because it kind of heats up when it's in your hands and then it peels off when you need it to. Do we lack this blue tack in America like we do health care? I don't know. Anyway,

imagine trying to sculpt gum fresh from a mouth. Yeah, it's like that to work with. So it's horrible. all so brilliant to work with. So yes, I sort of, I hate it and love it at the same time. This is a piece that the original of which is in what's called the Willets Collection in Brighton Museum. There was just this wonderful, wonderful horse, which Sarah managed to make in our quite small workshop and fire in our single kiln without me knowing, which is a remarkable achievement. I mean, it really was. And there was a horrible moment where he came into the workshop very quickly. So I very quickly threw some bubble wrap over the top of it. And then when he left, I lifted the bubble wrap off.

And it was almost dry. It caught on the lady's hat and pulled her head off. And I was absolutely horrified. But thankfully, because I'd used the paper clay, I could get it back on there. But I thought I've spent hours on this and I've ruined it in like a second. It was just the most horrible moment. But yes, it did survive. I mean, the idea of putting paper and clay might sound really weird.

but when you go back to Neolithic Bronze Age, Anglo-Saxon Viking pottery, they're using clays from the surface, from muddy puddles, etc. That already has a lot of organic material in. You know, I always say with a Bronze Age or a Neolithic potter, they wouldn't have had to look far for clay. A lot of these people were driving animals in and out of fields or whatever every day. Here in Britain where it rains a lot, you're going to be driving them through muddy puddles. You're going to spot where the clay is.

And of course, the animals are also helping you by adding organic material to the clay as they go. And in fact, I mean, some pottery traditions, you do add animal dung to the clay to make it more workable, more plastic. Not one of my favorite things to do, but, you know, it works well. And yes, this is well documented, such as the 2022 study, an experimental approach to assessing the tempering and firing of local pottery production in Nubia during the New Kingdom period, which notes that the addition of organics, for example, plant fibers and animal dung, and I'm assuming the plant fibers in animal dung, increases the plasticity of the clay, and that these organic-tempered vessels, if you will, were often lighter in weight and more portable. Now, what about Murdacotta, you ask? Oh, you haven't heard of it. You must not have visited the Italian Museum of Shit,

known as the Museo de la Merda, which in 2016 presented ceramics made from cow dung, tuscan clay, straw and other farm waste in variable quantities, they say. But from the creations of a horse to the creation of a horse. Well, a technical question, if it's sculptured, is it still pottery? Or is pottery only something that's thrown on a wheel or like a pinch pot? I think you'd get a different answer from all sorts of different people. For me, pottery and ceramics are almost synonymous with one another. There are blurred edges. And of course, we have high power engines made of ceramic now. We have jet engines made of ceramic. So it would be difficult to sort of define those as pottery. Yeah, yeah, I've just done a pottery project. I've built a jet engine, you know, but I sort of classify it all. I have a

fascination with it all. And one thing I love about what you do is just how much history you put into your pieces with making so many replicas, too. And can you tell me a little bit about why that began as a passion for you of keeping museum objects for museums, but also having, being able to make replicas where other people and other can see things in three-dimension across the world. How did that begin? It began, really. The first thing that happened, really, when I got back to the UK with the family, I like that mug. That's a nice, sorry. So just as a reminder, we were chatting by video. And I have a few mugs. I'm quite partial to, Quatro ceramics made me a custom art thou a spirit of health or a goblin damned mug from

the vamprology episode. And I also love Corey from Belfast Clay Studio in Maine's work. And this morning I casually lifted a whitefish pottery 24 ounce clay stein to my lips, filled to the brim with hot green tea. And on video calls, I take for granted that this thing is shockingly large and it looks like a medieval tankered. And to my delight and my shock, I had impressed these new friends that I adore. This is my daily driver. Your listeners can't see that, but that is one heck of a heck of a month. That is a good one. I, to my shame, I'm sitting here with an industrial mug sitting next to me. I was going to ask, you guys must have your daily driver mugs that you use. We've got lovely ones at home, but in the workshop, I have to say,

Yeah, no. They get broken. Sorry, in answer to your original question, we came back to the UK and I sort of had all these influences, including living in Lesotho for years and seeing ancient pottery made, came back and I started researching a little bit, really with the intention of doing more sculptural stuff. And I got talking to the archaeologists at the Northumberland National Park, Rob Young and Paul Frodgham, who were at that stage busy digging and a Bronze Age site in a valley just really close by. They came to talk to me because they'd found within these hot, some clay-lined pits and, of course, various bits of Bronze Age pottery, and then some burial mounds in which grave goods in the form of pottery had been placed,

including a rather beautiful Bronze Age urn, which very sadly had the cremated remains of a small child with enough skull fragments to know that it probably died of meningitis. Oh, wow. And even after four and a half thousand years, it's still poignant. It still makes you go, wow, that's amazing. So I looked it up and I found a BBC article furnishing photos of these 4,000-year-old terracotta-hued food vessels that look like planters with almost a cable-knit texture and fluted cuffs at the top. And Graham describes a request he got. for a contemporary piece of pottery that was heavily influenced by these excavated vessels and their textures. And it was to be used as a centerpiece in the visitor's center. And as an

experienced potter, could he make a replica of a precious artifact to serve as an educational tool? And I said, yeah, I can. Word got to the head of the National Park. And he came and he said, look, Prince Charles is visiting fairly soon. Could you make a set of these to give to Prince Charles as a gift. So our King Charles owns one of ourselves. Graham's replicas held such attention to detail and reverence for potter's past that they have landed in the hands of various leaders and dignitaries globally, which years later still seems to baffle and amuse him. So the Pope ended up with some of our pottery, Dum Chow Ping, who was then the leader of China, and I think Fidel Castro actually ended up with a piece.

These are our claims to fame. Was that something that you ever kind of thought would be a trajectory for you? No. That's got to be a bit surreal. Well, it was. There were interesting bits and bits that were maybe more interesting that we would have liked at times. When it comes to the way that you use pottery to educate in history, like, how far back do you go when it comes to teaching? Do you ever have to inform people

and like, when did pottery start? Is that the Venus of Will? No. Graham held a small figurine up to his webcam for me. And before this interview, I tried to study a few historical pieces and I thought maybe this was the famous squat and very curvy Venus of Willendorf. Turns out, I don't know shit about pottery history.

And that is why we're all here. She's a Dolny Vestinjitza. But yeah, she's from the Czech Republic. She's lovely. Tell me more. So I just put it here, because I knew that would come up at some stage. So the figure he's holding is roughly a four-inch-tall,

rich brown ceramic sculpture of a woman with wide hips, a very deep navel, a smooth head and pendulous breasts. And it's noteworthy because of its age. What age are we talking? Remember, fine China is about 2,000 years old. Ancient Grecian pottery, about 3,000 years old. So when was this figure made in what is now the Czech Republic? 28,000 years ago, 28,000 years ago.

28,000 years. That's a long time, but it's very late in human development. It's really late in human development. This is the first time we know of that anybody has taken a piece of clay, deliberately formed it, and then fired it. There are bits of clay in caves that may be earlier, but they've not been fired, and that was the key. And a lot of the ones in the fire were broken.

exploded in the fire. And the debate was whether they were being made as some sort of sacrifice to the fire or whether they were being made to distribute. And that Venus of Willendorf I mistook it for is actually carved out a stone. So not ceramic at all. Again, what do I know about historic ceramic figurines? Not much, which is why I'm making an expert 3,000 miles away talk to me. Two of them, actually. One of the facts I love about the Darlenevesen Yitz is on the bottom, there's a child's fingerprint. Now, we could say that it was made by a child, but I've got a son, and I know that he comes into the workshop and goes, what's that, mum, and gives it a prod. And this is what I love, like, having been made, it's lying, drying, and a child just comes up and pokes it in the bottom.

And I can completely see it now as well. So, yeah, it's a wonderful little detail that clay gives you, because other things, when they're carved, the fingerprints are not there anymore, but clay preserves that human touch in a way that I don't think anything else does. And it's amazing. How long before you start seeing pots or pinch pots or thrown pots, when do they think maybe it went from figurines to vessel? Well, there are huge gaps. It's the problem. Basically, we see these figurines and odd ones being produced as sort of around Europe. The next real leap forward is in China and Japan. And it's around about 19,000 years ago, you start to see the first pots that we know of. One of the issues is, and the ones from China come from fairly deep in a cave.

Now, although people will still refer to Paleolithic people as cavemen, not many of them lived in caves, so pots being found in a cave is quite special. But pottery that has been fired as pottery before, sort of prehistoric pottery is mostly fired in open fires, not in kilns, which means it only gets up to about 800 degrees C, 900 degrees C on a windy day. It means it's not very firmly fired. It's not very strongly fired. Rain, frost, ice will destroy it, completely destroy it. So the likelihood of finding anything from that sort of deep time is quite unlikely. So figurines came first and maybe they were made to be beautiful and then tossed in the fire like you would throw a coin into a well or maybe like a

wedding ring into the ocean but then dang these clay creations like a horror villain they only got stronger forged in fire so once your ancestors realized holy shit this works actually they were like well let's start the container store but with more hair and mud so about 19,000 years ago as far as we know, we start seeing pots and such. And indigenous people in the Americas have been making clay pots for millennia. And many first forms involved a big long clay noodle coiled on top of itself to make the sides of the pot and then smoothed over. And in some places, you can see the impressions left by leaves or mats they were created on in the bottom of the pot. But from those first figurines, it'll be a while before the potter's wheel, like 14 or so thousand years.

I mean, the potter's wheel. Southern Iraq, probably about 3,000 BC. You know, whenever I demonstrate, I demonstrate on a stick wheel, spun with a stick. It's a momentum wheel because we know that the Romans use it. We know the ancient Greeks used it. We know medieval potters used it. And it's the same sort of thing that would have been. in use in southern Iraq, about 3,000 BC, gets to Britain with the Romans in 43 AD.

So, you know, we were a little bit behind the game. You don't want to rush into these things, though, do you? You know, you've got to be sure it's right for you. Right. Just give it a couple thousand years. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And, you know, we were talking about in Forrest, too, those huge vessels. I've always wondered, you know, Roman and Greek huge vessels like that, why were

they pointed at the bottom, it seems like it would be difficult to set it down. This is a question we always get. I'm only laughing because it is the question that everybody asks. Why is it pointed? What do you want a pointed vessel for? That's crazy. They're pointed because their main function is to go into a ship. They are vessels for carrying liquid products, mostly wine, olive oil, fish sauce,

but they also ship things like sort of dates and figs and things packed in honey. and they're there to be shipped in an ancient Roman or Greek ship, and the whole of that ship is, you know, whole shape. It's sort of V-shaped. There would be little in the way of flat surfaces, and even if there were, this ship is going to be rolling around. So what you need is something allows you to fix those things into place. And when you've got the timbers of the ship and other lats of wood nailed across those,

you can leave gaps into which the pegs of the amphora are going. go and the amphra are then stabilized and you tie across all the tops with rope and there have been finds, I think, in the Mediterranean of ships where there is evidence still of weaving of rope or pieces of wood or whatever through the handles and you ship them. But there are other reasons. From a potter's point of view, when you fire huge pots with big flat bottoms to them in what is an updraft kiln. Now, in a Roman or Greek kiln, the fire is at the bottom of the kiln, and then at the top, you close it off because you normally pack in from the top of the top of the kiln. So the fires at the bottom, if you've got your pots packed in there with the

flat bottoms on the bottom of the kiln, that bottom of that pot heats first. And what it does first before it shrinks, it expands because it's being heated. But the flames are heat in the bottom faster than they're heating the sides. So the sides don't expand as fast. The danger of cracking is huge. If your pot has a nice pointy base and is sort of aerodynamic, the flames pass up past it and they heat the whole pot and they heat it nice and evenly, and they do so without the risk of cracking. It's also the case that in the workshop that you can get pots crack in the bottom just because they dry too fast or whatever. But a peg, peg makes sure that that won't happen. And this peg he's talking about is that kind of pointed

end of the amphora. So imagine a pitcher, if you will, or imagine a jug, depending on where you are. And rather than having that flared, wide, flat base, instead, this jug comes to a dull point at the bottom. And this can be wedged in between the amphora's below it, kind of like stacking chairs in the hull of a ship. And when they get to the other end, when they get to wherever they're going, they can be picked up. You pick up one handle, you pick up the peg at the bottom, off you go with it. You can pour it. A single person can pour it, although in fairness the biggest ones were 13 and a half gallons in a single vessel, 13 and a half gallons of wine. I always reckon that's half a hen party, isn't this?

I'm ready to party with the battle. In one vessel. But, you see, you can pick it up, you can pour it. And it has so many advantages. We have, the Ashmolean Museum in Oxford has some wonderful little statuettes of camels with amphora on the side of them, and they are tied on by being tied across the handles at the top and round the pegs at the bottom and held onto the camel. They have so many advantages that they remain the shape for carrying liquids for several thousand years. And even in medieval Britain, you would still have wine from Europe that was coming

in Amphra that was still being produced even as late as that. Do you get so excited when you hear of like shipwrex being discovered with. Yeah, yeah. Amphra, you know, of course, always cracking it open to see what it's inside is always exciting. Salty water. Yeah. Well, can I ask you some questions from listeners who know that you're coming on. Yeah, yeah. Wonderful. And before we get to those questions, patrons, we will donate to not one but two charities for this eighth anniversary episode in Graham selected Cancer ResearchUK.org, which funds scientists, doctors, and nurses to help beat cancer sooner. They also provide cancer information to the public and they carry out world-class research. Now, for Sarah, we're donating to littlelifts.org.com. That's a charity she chose.

that provides the most thoughtfully hand-picked gift boxes to people affected by breast cancer. So we're sending donations to both of those causes in honor of Graham and Sarah, also sending our warmest thoughts and hugs to them both. And thank you to sponsors of the show for making those donations possible. Okay, so let's get to questions from patrons via patreon.com slash ologies, which you also can join for as little as a dollar a month. Also, Patreon just rolled out social media posts via Patreon. They're called Quips, and so I've had a lot of fun recently making them so you can check out patreon.com slash ologies to see what's new there. Now patrons, Anuja, Joshi, Quinn, Jordan,

Ann Hanlon, and New Hampshire Gym asked in Jim's words, what's your favorite firing technique? Raku, salt, wood, gas, etc. Well, 23 Skadoo said, I'd love to know the origin story behind Raku firing. Okay. Questions from listeners. We'll fire them off, if you will. Oh, Deborah Brunner wants to know. Hi, this is Deborah from Placentia, and I was wondering what the backstory is on raccoo firing. Basically, it originates with the tea ceremony in Japan. It was a technique, very tied in with Zen Buddhism,

and it was carving your tea bowl from a fairly solid lump of clay, hand carved and then glazed in often quite a thick dark glaze but the things go into an extremely hot kiln which is not what you normally do normally with pots you heat them up gently you try not to blow them up though we were talking about before and then you let the kiln cool down nicely when you finish this you use tongs to get these pots in and out of the kiln in a matter of minutes often not more than half an hour a glaze pot fired in the kiln. So Raku, which came to the west around the 1950s and is different depending on the era and the continent, but the broad strokes are much less gentler heating processes. So it's lower

temperature, but way less gradual. The heat is turned up really quickly and pieces are taken out while they're still like red hot and glowing. And then sometimes cradled in this little nest of paper like in a metal bin, and that paper instantly catches on fire because it's 1,600 degrees Fahrenheit, and then it results in these unpredictable glaze effects. And this is a feature, not a bug. Now, that comes out with all sorts of imperfections. The glaze will bubble, or you'll get sometimes cracks in the pot, which would often be fixed with the sort of kensuki technique where they're adding gold into the lacquer in. And it is this sort of concept that nature is heavily involved in the production of this vessel, that it takes a hand in it and it puts its imprint on the pot

and that you will never ever get two pieces which are exactly the same. When I was a student, Raku was the thing. But as a student, I loved it. I absolutely loved it. We used to do Raku firing a sort of two or three times a term. And we had a little Italian restaurant we used to go to after we'd Raku fired. And they had a little dark corner at the pack where they would put us all because we absolutely stank of smoke. Because, I mean, in the sort of more updated technique, you often take the pots from the hot kiln and plunge them into sawdust or straw or, I mean, I've seen people now adding horsehair onto them and dropping them into water and all sorts of things.

So it's a very sort of visceral, sort of natural, powerful way of doing pots and great fun. And Sarah, Sarah's really annoyed because her sister got to do it one time. She didn't. We'll do it again. We're doing it again. Well, you mentioned smells, and Maya Catherine asked, why do glazes smell like farts? And do they?

Is there sulfur? They do? Could you address? Well, I mean, the clay buckets certainly get like that. It's the decomposition of organic material, essentially, which, yeah, they can be really stinky. You and George, my grandson, you had a little song you used to sing. Oh, yes. We did.

when he was very little, he was only five. You're going to make me sing now. We used to sing Grandad's buckets of grime, granddad's buckets of grime, granddad's buckets of grime, granddad's buckets, oh, granddad's buckets of grime. And he used to sing that every time he would go around because, yes, you'd have these stinky buckets of grime. That even sounds polished, like a Brit saying grime. I did say we do terrible things to nicely cleaned clay and things we do. Well, another person did ask about glaze. A few people wanted to know.

Kieran H. I like plants more than people. Good soup. Nikki G., Leanna Schuster, Mouss Paxton, all wanted to know about glazes. Nikki G. said, how do glazes work? Is slip just magic clay? What is glaze? What exactly is it?

Well, glaze is essentially glass. For real? But there are sort of infinite boundaries between the sort of shiniest most beautiful sort of fine porcelain glaze and sort of Neolithic pots or the Pueblo Indian pots. There are just beautiful, beautiful pieces that are made by using slips. Now, a slip is basically a liquid clay, but then you can start to add stuff to it. You can add metal oxides to it so you can colour that slip and make it darker or lighter. In some cases, blue, green, you can get different colours by using things like cobalt oxide and

chromium oxide. Then you can start to add fluxes, things that will make them melt. So soda ash, sodium carbonate, burned seaweed effectively is sort of one of the low temperature ones. And as you sort of move up through doing the bits of chemistry, and I like the idea of the blending of art and science, but I didn't want my science too sciencey. Well, this is very, very much the alchemist this is, you know, this is taking the ingredients and playing with them. So glaze is effectively rock that has melted. Because you're melting silica, quartz, alumina, various different additives to those, but those are sort of the foundations of your glaze. So yes, glaze is glass. But the trick with ceramics is you have to make, if you're going to get a glaze which doesn't crackle all over the place,

you've got to make a glass that will shrink and expand at the same rate as the clay underneath it. So that's where the clever chemistry comes in. The interesting bit of working with sort of ancient pottery is they often didn't worry about that. So it gives you a bit of free license. If you happen to have a career replicating the origins of ceramics, of course. But at the same time, and going back to the Raku, people treasure the sort of crackle effects and things on those glazers. So it basically is you're melting rock. That's what you're doing.

And people learned to melt rock quite a long time ago, really. here in Britain we have Roman pottery called barbeteenware, which is black-coated cups, often with hunt scenes on them. And the haunt scenes are done by piping on slip, liquid clay, a bit like you would do cake icing in the form of animals or gladiators or things like that go around the cup. And then they're dipped in a layer of what is probably the slag from an iron furnace that's been crushed back down and added onto the outside of it, because that's rock that they've already melted. It'll melt again. You apply it on the surface. get this beautiful black coated.

So the glaze can be anything. And as a student, we had to make little tiles up with loads of different mixtures on them to test out what could be made as a glaze. And some fool put a tea bag onto a tile and put it in the kiln. And it made the most beautiful little gem of green glaze. Yeah, yeah. So tea bags are good glaze. Try it and report back, Potters.

I want to see it. And, you know, getting back to the cup you were drinking from, a few people, Ryan Marlowe, Ella Raptor, Jaws themed swimming, Cynthia B, and Aaron Dewberry. And Aaron's word said, are the cheap plates and bowls from, like, let's say, the dollar store made by humans or machines. And if machine, how does a pottery machine work? Like, what is industrial ceramics? Well, Sarah makes lots of molded figures and things. And of course, the molded figures that the Romans and the Greeks made are that sort of beginning of industrial ceramics. Pottery. You make an archetype, you create a mould from it, and you press clay into it. And it means that you just need in your workshop one person who is talented enough to create that archetype. I've got Sarah. And then you can get any old fool to bash the things out. It's not

quite true. I mean, it is more technical than that. Once you move up to the industrial revolution, people start to develop ways of basically almost throwing on a machine. The first thing really is called a jigger jolly machine, and that you have the shape of, say, an inside of a plate or the inside of a bowl, and you put a slab of clay over the top of it, you spin it round and it pushes it down onto the mold, and you've got your plate a bowl. Yes, it is called a jigger and jolly, and it was invented in the 1700s, and essentially these are plaster molds that you can kind of patty cake a lump of clay onto. And if it's a convex mold, it's a jigger. And if it's a concave mold, it's a jolly. And then these things are spun around and you use the right size wood tool to shape the wet clay to fit the mold and get a uniform size when you're making things like dinnerware. And it dries and then it's fired. And it's just as strong as a throne piece, but it's faster and more reliable in terms of

sizing. And I know jigger and jolly sounds like a pair of puppets with like scary old-fashioned faces, but it's just a plate mold. And the other way that a lot of industrial stuff was made is slipcasting. So that's you have a closed mold with a hole at the top into which you can pour liquid and you mix up liquid clay with something called a defluculent. It makes it so that the clay doesn't shrink too much. You pour that into the mold. You leave it in there for a few minutes.

You pour it back out again. And what you've got is the thin skin on the inside of the mold. And as that dries, you can pull the mold apart and you've got your pot. So those are two ways that industrial pots were traditionally made. These days, quite a lot of industrial pots are made with dry powder. Clay has two kinds of moisture. It has the moisture that makes it moldable, and it has moisture that's chemically combined. And if you press it hard enough, you can get that chemically combined moisture to do some of the work and join it together.

So you can take what is perfectly jive powder clay, slam a huge press onto it, and come out with a plate or a bowl or a or whatever, and quite a lot of industrial pottery is made under high power presence. So, yeah, machines. I have no idea. So yes, dry clay pressed so hard that the water gets juiced out of it on a molecular level to conform to a mold. Wild. What about the safety of glazes? Some people asked about, are there some that have lead in them? Or I'm sure that they've gotten safer and safer, but can you dispel any myths about unsafe ceramics? Basically, nothing that you're buying from a reputable dealer should contain free lead in any way. We occasionally use what's called a lead fritted glaze on the outside of a medieval pot,

but we try not to use it on the inside of any vessels. And in fact, the medieval potters generally didn't. They left that out. but a frit is a glass so people will drink their whiskey out of their lead crystal glass quite happily well that's effectively what you're doing when you frit lead you mix it up you've melt it into a glass and then you grind it back down into a powder and then you use it as the glaze and it'll glaze the outside of the pot we only do that for a few museum replica medieval pots because almost everything we make is unglazed But, yes, lead was commonly used, and lead was used in the form of crushed down lead ore.

And while in the lead-or form, I am told it's not terribly body-soluble, when the potters fired those pots, the fumes coming off the kiln were certainly lead-laden. And if the pots weren't fired properly, the residue on the surface of the pots could be lead-laden. Okay, let's get into this. So there have been a lot of videos where people go to houseware stores and, test new stuff for lead and find an alarmingly high percentage of like home goods, mugs with lead in them. Although Mercedes was telling me that she just saw one in her algorithm last night and she followed it all the way into this tunnel of suss because the guy testing the housewares

and posting some of these videos also owns the company that makes the device he was using for testing. And their own legal disclaimer on Amazon, she found out points out that it's not an EPA approved method. So you can take that leaded cup with a grain of salt. But it's not unheard of. There is a risk. There have been case reports of families with abnormally high lead and then doctors later discovered that they were using imported traditional ceramics from around the world. The ones with the highest levels of lead were usually from places like Mexico or Ecuador, Turkey, Morocco, Uzbekistan. Those have been found to have the highest levels of lead according to a New York City health report from 2021.

And the report continued that although individuals with elevated blood levels may not look or feel sick, exposure to lead can cause some serious health problems. Now, in children, lead exposure can cause learning and behavior problems. In adults, it can increase blood pressure and affect the brain and the kidneys and reproductive organs. Exposure to lead during pregnancy can increase the risk of miscarriage and affect an unborn baby. So if you are prone to being afraid of lead, poisoning. The word from health departments like New York is stay away from using ceramic wear labeled for use only as a decorative item or that contains a warning label such as not for food

use may poison food. Also stay away from using antique ceramic wear or damaged or worn ceramic wear and it also cautions against using ceramics that are irregular in shape or purchased from flea markets or street vendors, which sounds like the New York City Health Department is just being like, don't use sketch pottery. But that also seems like very highly subjective. Now, one thing that you should not do is drink out of a decorative vase for several months, as I did before learning that this could poison me, no matter how cute it felt. Now, from poison to pop culture. Yeah, Sarah and Graham have consulted for the great pottery throwdown. Yes, they think things get dramatized and set it for failure on TV. But that's not what I

want to talk about. Any Pepper wanted to know, as did Lee L. and Leo Shang, feelings on the movie Ghost. On the help me. Yeah. Get them away. I just let the clay slide between your finger. On the absolutely iconic pottery doings of Demi Moore. Well, Graham has some form from that film.

Oh, no, what happened? I was demonstrating on said stick potter's wheel at a festival at Dover Castle a few years ago when a lady snuck up behind me and decided to try and emulate me. Oh, no. Yeah. Not ideal. Was she as handsome as Patrick Swayze? You'd have to be.

I'll be honest. I really can't remember. But if you're listening, hi. I mean, it's a scene. I got a feeling that the pottery wasn't the main focus of that scene, really. I do think it's almost impossible to throw a pot without thinking of that scene. And at least for a novice potter, who their only frame of reference really is watching Demi, that. But I threw a pot recently.

And I thought about, for a moment to me more. And I thought, listen, I'm just trying to make a pot here. I'm not trying to be sexy. This is not a sexy procedure. If I can ask one more question from listeners, Sarah Brudrow said, Hey, Allie, I've been a potter and an archaeologist for over 15 years. Oh, nice, nice. I really want to know from your expert, something that keeps them up at night in terms of pottery.

For me, how did people figure out that you could reuse? pottery and make it stronger, like grog, which is ground pottery that you put in the raw clay body. How did these people discover that? Any idea how they figure that out? Basically, the earliest pottery is pretty much made from what you dig out the ground. They're going to be pretty much contaminated with grits and rocks and bits and pieces. That was the clay they would have used to make the pots. Now, clay shrinks as it dried, so as it shrinks, it pulls away from the grit a little bit and it leaves little fissures, little gaps through the clay, through which moisture can escape the pot. So when you've got a really gritty clay and one with a lot of

organic material in it, which we were talking about before, as that burns out, you're left with even more cavities, it gets the chance for the moisture to escape. People would have found that as they started to purify clays and make them finer and nicer and smoother to use, it became more difficult to fire them. So the finer the clay, the harder it is to manage the escaping water vapor. Now, rough clays, like those with grog or recycled mashed up ceramics, though, are harder to mess up when you're firing. And this grog, by the way, I know what you're thinking, because I was thinking it too, was not to be confused with the hot grog, boozy, rum, and water drink, which was named after an admiral who wanted his sailors to be less drunk. So he's like, let's add a little water to that.

and he wore a cloak made of Grogrim, which is why they called him Grog. And Grogram is a stiff, waxed wool fabric, apparently. And I'm imagining this guy with like a silhouette like Darth Vader, but a reputation even worse. But yeah, Grog, in pottery terms, is crushed up old stuff mixed with the new clay. And if you want clay that's going to fire easily, as you would in making, for instance, Amphra, because you're going to make hundreds and thousands of them and you don't want to mess. about being very so delicate firing them. You're going to realize that the gritty clay was actually what was helping you to get them

through the firing. The other advantage that Grog has over any other kind of grit is its expansion and contraction rate in the fired pot is going to be exactly the same as the repot because it's made from exactly the same material. So I think people would have sort of come to this bit by bit as a process. You know, I was talking to an archaeologist just a couple of days. ago about middens. Middens. Oh, yes. Middens, side note, are trash dumps. Or in wildlife ecology, a midden also refers to a dung heap used as a communal latrine by like hippos and rhinos.

Middens that you find at Bronze Age, Neolithic, whatever sites that sort of look as if they haven't just formed in one nice even layer. They look as if they've been churned up. But the reason they're churned up is because I think prehistoric people viewed middens as recycling centres. You put stuff there until you need some of it again. And I'm sure that was the case with pottery bits, pottery fragments. They get put there. They get dragged out. They get crushed down. They get added into the clay. Of course, there are cultures in the world which add granny's pots back into your pots for the heritage continuation, for that idea that you are bringing the spirit of granny's pots into your pots. I'm saying granny's pots because actually

sub-Saharan Africa, it's almost entirely women that make pots. And north of the Sahara tended to move more towards men. And it's sort of I think it's as soon as machines start to be involved, boys and their toys and they want to play with it. Well, I've

seen some of your reproductions of phallic works in Roman times. And we even had a listener ask about that ancient Romans and Greeks really love to make fallacies at clay. Okay, one more listener, two more listener questions, courtesy of Z. Renabe, first-time question

asker, who said, my best friend is doing her Ph.D. in classical studies and told me that they find a lot of pottery on digs in Italy and Greece, and they are curious about the non-art uses of pottery throughout time. But let's go down. Let's go down. A little further. Tai Sunquist asked, I know that ancient Romans and Greeks really love to make fallaces out of clay. Was the purpose for a good laugh or for ritual or for sex or all of the above. That wouldn't have been an obscenity necessarily at the time. It was like a wishbone or something, like a horseshoe over the door. Yeah, it's good luck.

The phallus with the wings and the little chicken legs, he's called fascinus. And he is a good luck god. He's a deity of good luck. So people would wear a phallus around their neck, like a little glass penis essentially. I mean, the plaque that I make that says happiness lives here, but I can't remember the Latin. But that was above a bakery. So when you went to get your bread in the morning in Pompeii, you would have a big penis on the above the door. And as you walked in, I guess it would give you luck.

I don't know. Come on in. Have a ball. Yeah. Looking at your reproductions, I did see the one with the chicken feet. And I was like, that's not something you see every day. And that is just adorable. It's like a little cartoon character.

Well, last questions I always ask are the hardest parts of what you do. But is there something that is very difficult about working with Clay. Is Clay, will we run out of Clay? Does that keep you up at night? Is there something that that's really tough about the job? I think for both of us, it's the admin. I think not that. We could make pots all day, but tax returns, that's the word's made.

This is where Claire comes in. That baby doesn't answer your question. It can be frustrating when things break, though. It can be sometimes when you've made something and you've put a lot of love into it and then it goes into the kiln and the kiln gods are just not kind to you. That can be quite soul-destroy. I mean, one of the things, we're definitely not going to learn out of clay. The earth is fairly abundant in clay.

We've got lots of the stuff. So clay is considered a renewable resource because new clays are always being made from these geological processes. but if we go really hard with it, we could outpace it, but in general, the worry is low. I suppose for me, I've become more and more conscious every time I pack a kiln of getting as much stuff as I possibly can into each firing, because I know I'm using energy and I know I'm using quite a lot of energy in a single firing. So it has become a sort of thing of trying to make sure that we're as low impact as we possibly can be. I mean, Clay's wonderful because basically, as you've pointed out, it can be turned into grog even once it's been fired, but until it's

fired, it's infinitely recyclable. You wet it down again, you use the game, you keep going. And certainly our waste output from the workshop is minimal, and our packing materials are now all sort of biodegradable, etc., etc. But it is that sort of realization of we've got to be as efficient as we possibly can be with the energy resources we're using. And we're leaving something for the next generation that they want. Well, what about your favorite pieces of pottery or ceramics? Do each of you have like a favorite piece that you just is inspiring or that you just, you love a lot? Well, for me, I got a phone call from Stonehenge about three years ago. They were running an exhibition called Circles of Stone. And what it was doing was comparing

what was going on at Stonehenge at the time it was being built with what was going on in Japan in the Jomon period. If you listeners don't know what they look like, go and look up J-O-M-O-N flame pots and be amazed because these were Neolithic people. Apparently we are told making cooking pots. So we'll link these on our website, of course, but they resemble kind of the top of a really ornate Corinthian column in the way that the flames. lick upward and outward, they look so complex and modern, but they're 5,000 years old. And they are the most elaborate pieces you will ever see in your life, I think. And Stonehenge was asking us to make a replica of the flame pots and some of the figurines, which Sarah did.

But the flame pot is the most brain-cracking, challenging, probably piece that I've ever made. I loved it. I absolutely loved it. The only trouble is they take about a week to make and, you know, I won't be making an awful lot of them. But again, it's going back to that. Here we have somebody from the ancient past just really showing off. I always sort of say that ancient Greek potters were showing off. You know, the black and red figureware is showing off. The Japanese, they were doing it 2,000 years earlier. Sarah, what about you? Do you have a piece that sticks in your mind? Well, at the minute, I'm really enjoying making their little Astarte figures. They're from Cyprus. Imagine a kind of terracotta Barbie doll, but with actual human woman proportions and a little extra detail. From 1700 to 1200 BC is when they are. What I love about them is they've got these sort of big ears, this kind of almost beak-like nose, but they've got earrings. And so you have to put the earrings in afterwards. What I love about them is it jingles. And so you've got this kind of lovely female figure.

Sometimes they're breastfeeding, and they're also a bit like a rattle. And at the minute, it's something I just like making them. Because when you get them out the kiln, you just each one, even though I know what's going to happen, you've just got to give them a little jiggle, and I love all of that. This has just been so inspiring. I have a pottery studio nearby, and when I went to go throw a pot a couple weeks ago, I was like, I will be back. This was great fun.

Thank you, for the work that you're doing. You're just, you're beyond. You're beyond delightful. You're criminally delightful. You're too charming. Thank you. It's been wonderful, Ali. Thank you.

So ask learned people absurdist questions because how are you supposed to know stuff without admitting that you don't know it? So thank you so much to the whole family of potted history, Graham, Sarah, Claire, and Linda for all of your hard work and your humor and your insight and talent. This was a blast that you're a gift to all of us. Now, I raise my ceramic tankard to you. Now, to learn more about the work, you can see potted history on YouTube, which is excellent. You can check out their website and their social handles, which will link right at the top of the show notes. A ton of links and studies will be up at alleyward.com slash ologies slash seromology, including links to little lifts and cancer research UK. We are at Ologies on Instagram and Blue Sky.

I'm at Alley Ward on both. We have shorter kid-friendly versions of Ologies and their own separate podcast feed. You can subscribe to wherever you get podcasts that show is called Smologies, SM. O-L-O-G-I-E-S. We also have shirts and industrial-made mugs and stickers and totes at ologiesmerch.com. You can check out our Patreon at patreon. com slash ologies, including new quips that started this week. Erin Talbert manages the Ologies podcast Facebook group.

Aveline Malik makes her professional transcripts. Kelly Ardwyer does the website. Noel Dilworth is scheduling producer Susan Hale, managing directs the whole shebang and helped out on research this week. Jake Chafee has feet to the fire every week, putting this all together sonically, and only gets strong. in that fire. Lead editor and additional research is done by the archaeological archetype lead editor, Mercedes Maitland of Maitland Audio. Nick Thorburn made the theme music and if you stick

around until the end of the episode, then you have a lot in common with a sinus infection that has been plaguing me like a poltergeist for over two weeks. But I will tell you another secret and that's that while I worked on this episode, I need someone to know. I need to share this burden with someone. I was researching. I'm making my notes. I'm watching videos, all while having dozens of ants crawling all over me and biting me. My little shed office, which is heaven on earth, also has some invasive roommates. And there is nothing like the paranoia that you are covered in bugs, only to look down every 30 or so seconds in your workday and see that, yes, you have another bug on you. There are worse things, and at least I had my tea by my side,

but I would not rate it as the best working experience. Love the episode, though, and happy eighth anniversary to ask. Okay, bye-byeology, cryptozoology, lithology, metallology, meteorology, I will tolerate no reenacting, whether it's ironic or sincere, of the Patrick Swayze-Dimmy Moore pottery scene in Ghost.