Ologies with Alie Ward - Cervidology (DEER) Part 1 with Rhiannons Kirton & Jakopak

Episode Date: September 2, 2020

What IS a deer? And an elk? And a moose? And a Rhiannon? One thing they all have in common: cervidology. Buckle up for some spirited, laughy chatter with a duo of deer scientists. They dish all about Welsh mythology and their field trips into the remote, gorgeous wilderness. They’ll explain what to do if you find a fawn, if you should feed backyard deer, what deer population numbers are like, hunting, ungulates, being a first-generation scientist and more. This episode is a quick overview and then the real fireworks are next week: in Part 2 we answer some questions with BANANAS facts that will stay burned in your brain until the end of time. Trust me. Rhiannon Kirton: https://twitter.com/rhiannon_kirton https://www.instagram.com/rhi_kirton/ https://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/blog/rhiannon-kirton/ Rhiannon Jakopak: https://twitter.com/rhiacoon https://www.instagram.com/rhiacoon/ jakopakresearch.wordpress.com September 14-19: Black Mammalogists Week: https://blackmammalogists.com/ September 20: Free Atlatl Making Workshop by Angelo Robledo: 9/20, 10am-1pm Pacific Time: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSdqLMRT1PPLslrJyG5srbokkWrof3XFujIDEC2RzzrRaQ4LJA/viewform A donation went to: The American Society of Mammalogists -- Sponsored Membership Fund: https://asm.wildapricot.org/Donate For more links: alieward.com/ologies/cervidology Transcripts & bleeped episodes at: alieward.com/ologies-extras Become a patron of Ologies for as little as a buck a month: www.Patreon.com/ologies OlogiesMerch.com has hats, shirts, pins, totes and uh...bikinis? Hi. Yes. Follow twitter.com/ologies or instagram.com/ologies Follow twitter.com/AlieWard or instagram.com/AlieWard Sound editing by Jarrett Sleeper of MindJam Media & Steven Ray Morris Theme song by Nick ThorburnSupport the show: http://Patreon.com/ologies

Oh, hey, it's the third automatic soap dispenser you tried, the one that finally recognizes that your hands are real and exist. Alley word. Back with another episode of oligies, we talk about one ology per episode. This time, though, we're going to talk about one ology for two episodes. It was that good of an interview. So we're tucking our pants into our boots, we're heading out into the wilderness for serene and majestic, perplexing, vexing, horny antlered and fanged two-part episode of ologies.

With not one, but two dear scientists to fawn over. But before we dash into it, a few, hey, thanks, dudes, to patrons at patreon.com, which is a not secret club. You can easily join for a buck a month and submit questions for upcoming episodes. Thanks to everyone who's marching around in ologiesmerch from ologiesmerch.com. I hope you find each other, meet some new friends. Thank you for making sure you're subscribed and for rating and reviewing the show, which keeps it up in the charts for other people to find.

And if you've listened to an episode, you know, I pick a fresh review, like a review fairy to read. And this one this week is from the Mallory 9000, who says, Dear Daddy Ward, that's me. I work on an organic farm and it's super tough work, but listening to ologies has gotten me through radish season and into squash season. Keep rocking on, star girl, the Mallory 9000. I sure as heck will. Let's start with servidology.

Okay. So it comes from a proto-Indo-European word, ker, meaning horns. So if you were like, is servidology about my cervix? Well, yes and no. Because cervix means neck too, and it comes from the same root. So yes, antlers all tangled up in that business from an etymology standpoint, but moving on. So I have been looking for a good servidologist just for years and I kept striking out on like retired game wardens and professors who did not answer their emails until one day,

a few months ago, I stumbled on a dear expert with a beautiful name, Rhiannon, and I followed her on Twitter immediately. And then I realized a few days later that I wasn't following her. And then I realized that that was a different Rhiannon who is also a servidologist. And I was like, what, like, is this a wrinkle in the simulation? Is this a hole in the fabric of space time? Is someone catfishing me? Are they even real people?

And if so, do they know each other? And the only way to find out really is just getting all of us on a triple chat line. So one Rhiannon got her bachelor's in zoology from the University of Manchester in England. You will recognize her by her accent and is now at the University of Western studying what kind of whitetail deer are where. And you also heard a clip of her on the Black AF and STEM episode in June, and she's a co-organizer of the upcoming Black Memologist Week that kicks off September 13th, and we're going to hear more about that in another episode as it approaches, but you can learn more for

now at blackmemologists.com, mark your calendars, September 13th. Now the other Rhiannon studies mule deer and got her bachelor's in wildlife and fisheries biology and management from University of Wyoming, where she's now a grad student. She's getting her master's. She's studying zoology and environment and natural resources. Has she created a board game about mule deer? She has. My dears, buckle up for a part one of a truly, truly wild ride.

We recorded for two and a half hours. This had to be a two-parter. It is just a journey through the woods of knowledge about everything from Bambi to L-Club songs and hoof fights and antler velvet and the Second Amendment, underestimated backyard critters, piecing out for no reason. What to do if you find a fawn talking with butt languages and how not to hit a deer with your car with the absolutely charming, whip smart and delightful human entities who are both real people named Rhiannon and our servidologists, Rhiannon Curtin and Rhiannon Jacoback.

Does anyone have any ACs or fans or anything like any Beyoncé fans happening right now blowing right on you? Oh, let me go have a look. That was Rhiannon Curtin and you will recognize her from her delightful, faintly non-American accent. And where are you exactly? I'm in Ontario in Canada, but it gets very hot here. It was like 40 degrees last week.

And when you say 40, you mean Celsius, correct? Yes. I think that's like a hundred for you guys. Yeah. It's a lot. It's just something a lot. And where are you originally from? You're like a long story.

I grew up between Australia and the UK before I came here. And the other Rhiannon? My name is Rhiannon Jacoback and I am currently in Wyoming, but I'm from South Dakota originally, but I've been in Wyoming for many years now. When did you both learn about the other one? A while ago, I feel like. Yeah. Just like in the Twitter.

Yeah. In the Twitter sphere somehow, like we got connected in some way and I was like, oh, look, there's another Rhiannon who also studies deer. How cool. Yeah. I think this Rhiannon was the first other Rhiannon that I knew. I have a twin sister is what I'm trying to say. And now I know a couple of other Rhiannons on Twitter as well.

We will take over. Yeah. Nation of Rhiannons. I have to say, you're both the first Rhiannons I've ever met, like ever. And I thought like that's such a rare name. I've never heard it before and I Googled it and y'all, I did not realize it was a Fleetwood Mac song until today. I heard that song for literally decades.

I never, I just thought they were just going like, yeah. I didn't realize you were saying a word or a name. Were you both named after the Fleetwood Mac song? This is American accented servidologist Rhiannon Jacobak. Yeah, I was. And also I have that similar experience. So I worked in a grocery store when I was in high school and they always had like background music on.

There was always this one song that was playing and I'd like kind of hum along, but I never really paid attention to it. And then one day for whatever reason, it was like, oh my gosh, they're saying Rhiannon. For years I listened to that song. So yeah, anyway, but yeah, I was named after that song and I really love that so many people as soon as I say my name, start to sing that song to me. I cannot say I've had that experience. I was not named after the song.

My mom was kind of a hippie when I was a kid and we lived probably about two hours away from Wales and Rhiannon, who the song is about, is a character in Welsh mythology. So my mom actually named me after like the mythological Rhiannon. I guess Stevie Nicks also heard about Rhiannon. Okay. Quick aside, I went down a long, witchy, trippy rabbit hole researching why Stevie Nicks chose to softly wail this name in one of her biggest hits. And apparently in 1974, she was at a party and she flipped to a random page in a book

describing it as quote, just a stupid little paperback that I found lying on the couch. And it was called Triad written by Mary Leader, who probably did not appreciate Stevie Nicks' description of it. Stevie Nicks explained that it was all about this girl who becomes possessed by a spirit named Rhiannon. So she was like, man, I got to write a spooky song about a lady from another realm who digs birds and is named Rhiannon and then launched my career, I guess. She didn't even know at the time that Rhiannon was a Welsh bird-loving goddess.

Has that for a kawinky dink? Nor did she know that two deer scientists named Rhiannon would be talking about this decades later. Also, did you know that when you flip to a random page in a book and then you let it determine your future, that's called Bibliomansi. It's fancy. Okay, let's continue. But now I do that to people when they're like, what's your name?

And I'm like Rhiannon. And they're like, what? And I'm like, Rhiannon, like the Fleetwood Mac song. And they're like, oh, I've never heard that song. And I'm like, what? We all, I think we all have heard it, but we don't realize what song it is. Like I never, I honestly had no idea. I feel so much better Rhiannon knowing that you didn't know it was your name.

Yep. Yeah. Okay. That makes me feel. So you were both kind of named after the same Rhiannon, like once removed, right? Yeah. Oh my God. Amazing.

Okay. And now you're both biologists. You're both servidologists. Is that a word that you have heard before? It's not a term that I have used, although I was really hoping that that's what you would say. I guess I have tried to be a broad mammologist, so I'm interested in mammals generally and right now I'm working on deer in particular.

I'm going to go with no as well, but I've always had an interest in large mammals and I was actually telling the other Rhiannon this the other day that, you know, I like deer because deer are food for other things. I've always had an interest in large carnivores, but I did actually write my second year dissertation at university about the role of large ungulates in biogeochemical cycling. Oh, and you are going to have to tell me what biogeochemical cycling is. No, no idea. Biogeochemical cycling is just things like the nitrogen cycle or like the carbon cycle

and it's the way that elements get cycled like through the environment. So like deer contribute to various biogeochemical cycles through excrement and through decomposition of their bodies when they die. Okay. So that's just, we all go back into the soup. It's just back into earth soup. That's a comforting way to think of dying. Let's ask Wyoming Rhiannon Jay about her mammalian history.

You've worked with a lot of mammals, right? So how did you end up kind of in the deer world? That's a good question. So I think a lot of biology is like you just kind of know the right people and like, thankfully just make good connections and then fall into a really great project. So she ended up being introduced to her now advisor, Dr. Kevin Monty. Kind of serendipitously as if by the bescarved hand of Stevie Nicks herself. And I met him because he was one of my professors and then I worked for him and then it just

kind of spiraled from there. But I work in an area called the Wyoming range and the Salt River range and I just think that they are the most phenomenal, beautiful places in the entire world and I just want to be here forever and explore them for forever. And this project popped up where I got to work with deer who are the, it's just the species that so many people care about and they have a really crucial role in the ecosystem and with other animals. And I was like, yes, please sign me up.

I want to do all of this. And now are, were you both outdoors kids? Are you both drawn toward biological sciences because of the setting or because of the problem solving or because of behavior? What kind of drew you to get involved in science? Rhiannon Kay answers. Now remember, you can tell she has the accent. So yeah, I grew up pretty rural-y.

I lived in Somerset when I lived in England, which is in the Southwest. It's farming country. It's full of cows and orchards. Cheddar Gorge where cheddar cheese comes from was like really close to my house. And I lived right by Glastonbury Festival. It was great. And then I lived in Australia and I lived in Northern Rivers, New South Wales, which is on the Eastern coast near Byron Bay.

And it's fairly biodiverse there. And of course, Steve Irwin was like huge when I was a kid. So I guess it was a combination of things. My mom tells me that my first word was tiger. I guess I was destined to be a biologist of some sort. But it really was wolves that drew me to this line of work. I originally wanted to be a vet. But then I decided that I could see more animals if I was a zoologist.

So Rhiannon Kay was particularly fond of wolves. And just how you know what your crush's favorite burrito is, she was like, oh man, wolves love a bloody deer carcass. So I'm kind of into deer. And so you like to study deer because they are so crucial as food to carnivores, which is totally understandable. I mean, it's actually kind of funny. Like both of us are studying deer movement and deer spatial ecology.

I was really interested in studying deer movement mostly like to gain skills in spatial ecology because animal movement and like migration and corridors and stuff is also vital to the way that we manage large mammals. And it popped up on my Twitter feed and I applied at the last minute. You did. You got a job from Twitter? That's amazing. I did.

And I've also been lucky enough to go out and do field work with people from Twitter. My friend Rebecca, I went and helped her in Montana. She's a wildlife biologist. And my friend David, I went and caught Tasmanian devils with him. So Twitter's actually been pretty lucky for me. What's that you'd like to know more about Tasmanian devils? Well, may I suggest last week's episode with M. Dale, who has a laugh as infectious but way less tragic than Tasmanian devil facial tumors?

Also, speaking of the beauty of the outdoors, is that what drew Ran and Jay to science? I don't think I really started being interested in the outdoors. So when I was a kid, I mean, I lived out in the country and I like, I remember climbing trees and eating leaves. I don't like, I don't know why I was doing that. And I also, in third grade, gave a show and tell presentation where I just read facts about wolves. So I guess I really liked wildlife and outside, but then, I don't know, like in high school,

I just totally, I don't know, like I just fell out of science. I felt like I was not really good at science. And nobody in my family really is like active outdoorsness, like camping, hiking, that sort of thing. I went to college and I originally had tried to be in science and then I didn't do super well. It turns out that you need to go to class and I guess I didn't, strange. So anyway, I switched my major and a few years into college, a few friends took me on a hike

and I was 20 or 21 and I was going on my first hike ever and I was just like, oh my God, this is so cool. There's like grass and birds and we saw moose and it was just like super cool. And then I quickly realized that you could get paid to work outside and it's like, okay, I want to do that. And so then I realized that I could do science and there was a lot of back and forth with myself there. Like there were a few times where I almost dropped out of undergrad because I didn't

think I was smart enough to be in science. I think part of it is that I'm from a first generation low income background and I was working full time while going to school to support myself through school. So I was like getting off work at like six in the morning and then had class at eight and so I was really tired. And anyway, so there's a lot of factors there, but I eventually like convinced myself that I was good enough to make it through. But then I had one class, it was it was mammology and I went from like kind of thinking of

school as this thing that I felt like maybe I had to do to like, no, I don't want to hang out with anyone. All I want to do is read papers about mammology like, no, I don't want to go party on a Saturday night. I'm going to like memorize rodent species. That's amazing. So I don't like, I didn't, I don't feel like I had this, you know, like huge exposure to science and actually like had tried to convince myself pretty frequently throughout my life

that I wasn't good enough for science, but then I just loved it so much. Once I like finally found that little specific field and then I had some really great professors and mentors who just were like, yes, you can do this. And then they pushed me along and now here I am and I still love wildlife and the outdoors and all of that. That's amazing. Those kind of stories are so important to hear because I think so many people when they struggle with anything, whether it's something academic or whatever their dream is like to

not hear people's struggles can can be really isolating and that's so helpful and I'm so glad that you stuck it out because now you're a servidologist. If you are, if you are studying the thing, I, you're, that makes you anologist of it. So you're both servidologists, so it says I, such a stupid question, but I have two servidologists so I can ask what exactly is a deer? What is a deer versus an elk versus an antelope? What's the deal with horns versus antlers? Just like if I were an alien that landed on earth and it was like, what is this big dog?

Can you explain it to me? Here are servids and hooved animals are ungulates. So servids are a smaller group within the big group that is ungulates. So like antelope are ungulates, but they're not servids. Ooh. Okay. So remember, all cacti are succulents, but not all succulents are cacti. Now other ungulates include zebras and horses and rhinos and donkeys and giraffes and warthogs

and coppies and also bovids like cows and bison. So hooves, you got yourself an ungulate. But which of those ungulates are servids, aka deers and such? Now Riyadid J is just chomping at her bit to tell us and the answer is so odd, I can't even, that's going to make sense in a sec. Yeah. When you asked that question, I was like pumping my arms. I was so excited.

I was like, Riyadid, no, stop moving, it's going to pick up the sound. Yeah. So like Riyadid just said, there's like this broad umbrella of ungulates and so that will be split into two orders. So parisidactyla and ardiadactyla. Parisidactyla is your odd-toed ungulates. So things like horses, tapirs, that sort of thing. And then ardiadactyla is your even-toed ungulates.

So things like deer, all the different species of deer, sheep, cows, that sort of thing. And so then within ardiadactyla, there's the family servidae is within ardiadactyla. And so that includes things like mule deer, which I study, whitetail deer, which other reandons studies, elk, moose, caribou, that sort of thing. And then servids have antlers and antlers fall off and they will be regrown. And then bovids, which are things like sheep, cows, goats, those have horns and those horns don't fall off each year. So they just grow throughout their life.

So a horn is like a record of an animal's life, whereas an antler like falls off and grows again each year. OK, so odd-toed ungulates are the horses and the donkeys and the rhinos. And even-toed ungulates include bovids with keratin horns and servids with antlers. P.S. Those antlers are generated from something called velvet, which is a veiny, stretchy, slightly hairy skin that supplies blood and oxygen to the bone. It's building underneath. And then when it's grown and good, the velvet just is like buh-bye.

And it kind of dries and the servids slough it off. Kind of like a crusty chicken skin, like buh-bye now. Also, as some bucks grow, they produce more pointed tips per year, kind of like tree rings you can count. Now, why do they waste all of that good calcium just to toss them every year? Well, apparently, one theory is that it makes does hoarding as hell just to see a dude, dear, flexing his extra nutrients in just such a wasteful way. Kind of like getting bottle service.

Correct me if I'm wrong. Other re-anon. But antlers are used for a sexual selection. I think I don't know if horns are used for sexual selection in the same way. They both are, yeah, big horn sheep males will just like ram their heads together, like, and use their big old horns to fight with each other for access to females. So, yeah, both of them will use their horns or their antlers for sexual selection. Yeah.

And then one other weird fun thing is that, so in North America, we have pronghorn. Do you guys know what pronghorn? Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, colloquially, they are called antelope. However, they are not antelope. They aren't?

No, they're not. Yeah. Uh, they're in, uh, different families, antelope, Capra. I don't think I'm saying that right, but also, I, like, sorry, I read a lot of these things and don't say a lot of these words. So, oh, that happens to me all the time. Try having a podcast about it. Do you know how often I go on YouTube to be like, how is this pronounced?

Like constantly. Okay. Side note, I had all the faith in the world that she was pronouncing the genus of the pronghorn antelope just fine, but I double checked online and I found this antelocapra, Americana. Wait. Okay. There's also this antelocopra and this antelocapra.

So say it however you want, or just call it a pronghorn, not antelope. So those aren't horns by the by. They're like bony blades permanently jutting from its skull. And then every year they grow a hair like sheath over them. Now, if you live in North America, pronghorn antelope used to be so abundant here and they served as fuel for indigenous plains tribes before the Europeans came, heavy sigh. But now you know that they are not antelopes or servants, but you don't know

how to pronounce antelocapra, neither do I. But if you ever just want to, I don't know, pull that fun fact out of the party, which maybe I've done once or twice, actually, pronghorn aren't antelopes. They're closest living relatives are, um, are giraffes and no copies. Wow. Neat. Well, that actually brings up the question. How did deer get to North America and where do deer live?

Are they in, in Europe or are they tend to be Northern hemisphere animals? They are found on North America, a Europe, Asia, South America. And there's not a huge surveyed diversity in Africa. Instead, it's, it's bovine diversity there. So all the antelopes are, are bovets. So one of those other big groups in the ungulate group. Yeah. So when I was growing up in England, we had like row deer fun fact, what they

call red deer in the UK is called an elk in North America. And in Europe, what they call an elk is what we would call a moose in Canada. It's crazy. And like, I was writing my dissertation on biogeochemical cycling and I'm like, this says elk and this one says red deer, but they have the same scientific name. And I was like, what is going on here? Um, but they're the same. Oh, my, is, okay.

And are they, is the elk a deer? The deer is an elk? No, no, yes. Okay. So like, they're just big, just giant deer. Yeah. Fuck moose are giant deer. They're the biggest living deer species, like the biggest living servant.

Oh my God. This is blowing my mind. I had, I figured that they didn't even talk to each other. You know, I just figured they didn't even know each other. Yes. So red deer in the UK are American elk and their elk is our moose and a moose is just a giant deer with a face shaped like a bread loaf. Also, I'm sorry I said the F word so much, but that was just very

shocking information for me and I got emotional. Now I have so many questions left, but before we get to them, a few words from sponsors of the show who helped get the bills paid and let us donate to a cause of the oligarchs choosing. And this week it was unanimous among reannons. It's going to the sponsored membership fund through the American society of memologists and Rhiannon Jay says that membership with the ASM has been absolutely fundamental to her career development as a servidologist.

They say it's a great scientific organization. It's really student focused and friendly. Lots of outstanding memologists can trace the roots back to ASM somehow. And the sponsored membership fund in particular supports ASM membership for memologists in developing countries. And they both say that they hope this donation will help make memology a little more accessible to memologists in other countries. So that was made possible by award approved sponsors of the show who offer

listeners discounts on their stuff, which I may tell you about now. Okay, back to questions. Okay. I have so many questions. Um, okay. How do you both feel about internet videos of people feeding bananas to deer and carrots? Are you like, don't do it.

Don't do it. Yep. Um, there have been heated discussions about. Those videos, um, especially in the Black AF in STEM chat. Um, don't do it, brother nature stuff, please. What's your name? Lola. Come on, Lola.

Eat that. Like maybe well intentioned, but it's not good for the deer. Correct. Correct. Right. And feeding any wild animal is not advisable ever. Don't do it. Don't do it.

So if you have a deer squad in your backyard, don't give them carrots or bananas or Pringles or anything as fun as it would be. Now wait, with the exception of Audrey Hepburn's pet fawn Pippin, which she raised to strengthen a bond for a film and then later adopted, but then I think mysteriously gave away later cause her dog was like, why is there a deer in the house? So why haven't humans ever tried to domesticate deer families? Kind of like having a small herd of great Danes in the backyard.

Sammy saw me culture in the Scandinavian countries has domesticated reindeer and they've done that, I think for like multiple centuries. And so reindeer are a really integral part of their culture. And I don't know. I have exhausted what I know with those like two sentences. I think that's a really cool historical example of people domesticating deer. And there's also some pretty dire consequences given climate change and how reindeer might be responding to climate change and how that would affect

the Sammy people. If you ever make it to Scotland and go to Abymor, that's where I learned through snowboard, they actually have a reindeer center and they have a herd of reindeer and you can visit them. Rihanna, I like, what is your passport like? Like, is your, do you have to add pages to it? I have two passwords. So that helps, I guess.

But yeah, I guess I kind of travel. It's funny because I also come from like a first generation, blowing come background and my mom is like the single parent of twins. So we definitely didn't do like tons of traveling when we were little. I mean, we lived in Australia for a bit, but definitely since I've grown up, I like never stopped moving. My niece is a nephew. Apparently think that I'm like in Africa right now, which I'm not.

So I was really lucky in that university opened the door for me to travel and working throughout my degree meant that I could save money to go traveling. So I was really lucky in that respect. I love how much both of you have such a connection to landscape and to nature and to being outdoors and how much that's kind of fueled the passion for your work. I think one thing too about deer that so many people, especially North America, think about is like, it's one of these charismatic megafauna that we see, you know, when we're driving down the freeway or maybe in our headlights or you see on

a hillside. I mean, it's never boring. I feel like when you see a deer out in the wild and how are the populations doing in North America, especially with their relationship with carnivores, how are they doing these days too well? White-tailed deer, which are what I study, actually be most widespread game species in North America and across most of their range, they are actually overabundant and in some places because they're over their caring capacity, they are damaging to the landscape.

But the management of deer is a long and convoluted political history. Yeah, but there's lots of deer. There's too many deer in most places. And that's kind of a function of the North American model for wildlife conservation, which is like a whole other podcast to talk about, but there's lots of them. They're not like going to disappear anytime soon. And lots of people are actually trying to find ways to reduce the deer numbers.

So the North American model was set up as a way to allow those populations to rebound and to manage hunting sustainably. But of course, that then also led to people wanting to manage predators so that the deer were not threatened or people were not competing with predators. So yeah, there's like a very long and convoluted relationship between predator management and deer. I don't know why Bravo hasn't done a show on this so much drama. And with the deer populations maybe being slightly swollen.

What does that mean for for game hunting now? Is that a good idea? Or does that just perpetuate the problem? If they're reduced too much and then more carnivores are killed off? I was surprised to learn how many conservationists also hunt. I didn't realize that that was the thing. Any thoughts on that? Or what is the general servidologists thought on deer hunting in North America?

Yeah, so white-tailed deer are very overabundant in a lot of their range and mule deer are below what people would want them to be at in a lot of their range. So there's these two kind of competing narratives there. But that doesn't necessarily mean that just because these animals are like below the population objectives, these populations are still doing very well. And so they're like the state wildlife agencies that manage hunting and licenses and that sort of thing are very, very careful to figure out like, what are the population levels at now?

And then they allocate licenses accordingly. Then when you purchase a license, then all of that money gets funneled back into the state wildlife agency so that they can continue to manage deer, but also manage non-game species of all types. So the deer populations are lower than what they would have historically been, but also our landscape looks drastically different than what it would have been a hundred or 200 years ago. Like there is less space for deer to be on.

It makes sense that there is going to be a decline in their population size. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't work to make sure that we're not just like decimating their populations, but their populations are sustainable and hunting as it's practiced right now is also sustainable. And I was reading a study for the Lyme Disease episode about deer and abundance that rates of deaths of deer were stable when they opened up hunting in parts of Connecticut, because those deer would just get killed by like volvos and Mercedes instead.

And that's what that's this idea of compensatory mortality versus agitative mortality. So like there are just some animals that are going to die regardless. So if you hunt them, like you're not contributing to the population declining. But yeah, if you hunt over that limit of that of that compensatory mortality, then you start to potentially be contributing to a decline of the population. But mule deer are not hunted to the point where you want to cause declines of them, whereas white sales deer in many cases are.

They're like, we need to get these populations down. So part of the challenge now with managing white-tailed deer is that how do you reduce the numbers? People like to hunt white-tailed deer, but also white-tailed deer have impacts on native vegetation and plant nurseries, and they cause vehicle collisions, which are costly. And with white-tailed specifically, people are looking at like how they can reduce those numbers more, but also there's some amount of like hunters

don't want to take more than they can use. And people don't want to waste deer meat if they get extra deer. So then like, can you get people to hunt more deer, but take the meat somewhere that it's needed? Um, and I know there are some programs out there where they have people hunt extra deer and then they donate the meat to people who are in need. That's great. So it's, yeah, it's definitely a conversation that goes on within seven

dollar just, but I don't think there's a clear solution yet. Yeah. Hunting is one big part of management. Um, but yeah, there are tons of deer everywhere for white-tails at least. Why do they have white butts? It seems like you're just advertising your delicious rump. If you have a big white circle on your butt, what is the evolutionary advantage of that?

I think it's a predator deterrent, right, Rhian? And it's like, hey, yeah. And like when they're running away, they can even like wag their tails and they're like, look at me. I'm so fit. You can't catch me. And then I think it's also a warning sign to other deer to be like, I'm going. Let's go.

I'm Audi. Um, Bambi, when was the last time you saw it? Did you cry? Are you scarred by it? Did it make you like wildlife? Is there a lot of flimflam in Bambi? I've never seen Bambi. I really, I really wanted to watch it in preparation for this and I just didn't

get to. I'm so curious. I also don't think I've seen Bambi either. Oh my God. Sorry, we're like the worst cervidologists. 100% of cervidologists name Rhian. Not same Bambi. I might have seen Bambi and just forgotten.

Yeah, I'm sure, like, I'm sure we've all seen it, but it's just like, I don't, I have no memory of this, but there is a thing called the, the Bambi effect, which is where like, yeah, your experience with something like Bambi as a movie that like really shows, um, how cool these animals are and how adorable they are. And that sort of thing, um, like that can lead over into how you perceive animals in our, the real world. Uh, and so you'd be like, Oh, those animals are so cute. We can't harm them.

And like what makes you want to protect them? So I know about the Bambi effect, but I don't know about Bambi. PS, this Bambi effect also apparently extends to humans, not caring as much about the harm done to less cute animals and somewhere there's like a rat and a cockroach being like, hello. Yeah. Anyway, let's get back to myths. Is there any flim flam about deer that you would love to debunk?

Don't touch a fawn if you see it. Don't touch that. Ooh. Okay. So. Yeah, that's a good one. Yeah. So, uh, fawn being, uh, baby deer, like white tailed deer or mule deer in

particular, uh, so their strategy for surviving early on in life is to just like hide. So they are what are called hiders. Um, whereas like followers would follow their mom and they're protected that way. Deer, like mule deer and white tailed deer just hide very well. They have spots. If you're looking through a forest, like, and my job this summer and for the past handful of summers has been to look for these fawns and they are so hard to

find. They are sometimes impossible to find. Like sometimes we can't find them. So their, their job is to hide and it is to stay like, you know, tucked up under a bush and then they go into this thing called alarm Brady Cardia. Uh, and it basically means just like when you're stressed out, you really stop breathing and have a lower heart rate so that they can avoid detection by predators. Wow.

Also they have like no smells for their first, I don't know, a handful of days of life and then like over time they accumulate smells. They can't poop on their own for a while. Like their mom has to like clean their butt. So they are really, really good at hiding. Oh man. I love a good field story and here is one. So much so that one time I was going in with some people to find a fawn and

collar it and this is part of our work. We have the necessary like approval and protocols in place. Um, we weren't just like going out to try to harass wildlife, but we were going out to like find this fawn and we knew it was there because we knew that mom was there and, uh, some technological reasons we knew that it was going to be there. Um, and so there were four of us in a line and three people literally walked over the fawn, they thought it, they thought it was a rock and the fourth person was like this fawn, this one right here, the one that we're looking for.

So like they are so good at height. That's a really long, really long explanation to say, like, they are so good at hiding and their survival during their first few weeks of life depends on them being able to hide very, very well. So they will hide, mom will go away and eat, do her mom's stuff. And then she'll come back and check on them, nurse, whatever. And then she'll go away again. So if you find a fawn out in the forest, it is like almost certainly not abandoned.

It's just, it's just hiding and doing its jobs super, super well. And so you should just be like, Oh, that's really cute. And then just keep going. Okay. Do they tend to have twins also? I heard that they do. Yeah. Um, which again is a good evolutionary strategy because they have really low

survival early on in life. And so if you have two of them and it's like, Oh, well, hopefully one of them makes it, um, and both white tailed deer and mule deer do this. Um, but then other deer like elk, uh, elk only have one, but also elk are huge and their calves, which are their babies are also massive. Like having two calves would be too much. Yeah, no, thanks. If you're a mule deer, you won't get pregnant during your first year of life,

but a white tailed deer can actually get pregnant really early on in life. They're super good at reproduction. And then mule deer will normally wait until they're two. Um, and then maybe that first time they'll have one fawn, but then after that, it's like two for the rest of their life. And sometimes they have three, but that happens super, super rarely. It's like 3% of birds are triplets. So wow.

So Rhiannon Curtin has a bone to pick and a myth to bust and a good story to tell. I would say it's not really flim flam, but I think people have this perception of like, Oh, well, they're not that fast. Servants are fast. Like don't get close to them. They will chase you. Just don't do it. I went to Glacier Park when I was working in Montana with my friend and they

recommend like you don't get within a hundred meters of a moose because why would you do that? They can be six foot tall at the shoulder, like they're humongous. Um, and all these people, these like two or three moose were in the lake and all these people were like right on the edge of the water and I was like, I'm just going to stand way back over here where I should be because I don't want to get up in that moose's face for it to come and get me. Moose are fast.

And I think people just think like, Oh, well, they're like in the water, so they're not going to get me, but like just give animals their space, not just servants, like just because they don't have sharp teeth and like claws. Who's hurt? Like, yeah, I've ridden horses for a long time. You do not want to get bashed with a hoof like you just don't. Can we just hear Rhiannon Curtin say hoof again? Okay.

Once more, it's so good. Or an antler. And like elk and Yellowstone every freaking year, someone gets chased or butted or something and the same with bison. Like just give them their space, man. They just, they don't want you up in their face. Leave them alone. Don't do it for the gram.

Don't do it for the tick to. Oh my goodness. Instagram has just been such a disaster for wildlife encounters in that way. Yeah. Please observe all signs. Um, can I ask y'all Patreon questions? Yeah. Is that okay?

Oh my gosh. So nervous, but yes. Oh my gosh. I feel like they're going to be really hot. Nothing to be nervous about. These are professional servidologists. They got this. So we will get to your Patreon questions next week and let me tell you, they are

bananas. I learned so much weird, sorted wacky facts from them as well as how not to hit a deer with your car and a really, really interesting discussion on, should you hunt? Should anyone hunt? Do they endorse hunting? So do not miss next week. It's really, really, really good. When we ask smart reandons, all of our not very stupid questions because they are

full of answers, life is short, the world is beautiful, nature is complicated. So get excited for next week. It's so good. Also get excited for a black mammologist week starting September 13th. Look out for an episode on September 14th with a guest that I have been emailing for three years, hoping to get on the show and I finally did it. So that's going to be a good one too. And this week, follow the reandons on Twitter and Instagram.

There are links to their pages in the show notes and there's going to be more links up at alleyward.com slash ology slash servodology. Also, blackmammologist.com has a full schedule of the week's events starting September 13th and there's a link to the sponsored membership funds for the American Society of Mammologists when we send a donation this week and for next, and you can follow ologies on Twitter and ologies and Instagram and ologies. I'm at alleyward with one L on both and definitely follow both accounts. So we love you and I love how supportive they've been to the black AF and STEM

community as well. So watch my Instagram for that giveaway. Also, if you want ologies merch, it's at ologiesmerch.com. Thank you, Shannon Feltes and Bonnie Dutch of the comedy podcast. You are that for managing merch. They are hilarious. Subscribe to their podcast. Thank you, Aaron Talbert for being the best admin ever to the ologies podcast

Facebook group. Thank you to professional transcriber Emily White and the gaggle of very generous ologites who get these free transcripts available for deaf and hard of hearing science lovers. Those transcripts are up at alleyward.com slash ologies extras. There are also bleeped episodes done by Caleb Patton in case you have kiddos or small ologites who want to listen. Also congrats to Caleb and your brand new wife, Heather.

Y'all got hitched this week. So love to you both. Um, happy birthday to Larry Pete, Cranpod Ward, just round and home plate to a 76 year. Love you so much pops. I'm so sorry for swearing. Thank you to Noel Dilworth, who helps schedule the ologists and to Jared sleeper of the mental health podcast, my good bad brain for helping me get this

episode together while our wonderful lead editor, Stephen Ray Morris was taken a holiday in the woods, I think doing some cervid gazing himself. And thank you, Stephen, for the final touches in the upload and be sure to catch Stephen's new series with paleo experts in a back to school season of his podcast, See Jurassic Right. And that launches on September 7th. And he also hosts the cat themed podcast, The Percast, and Nick Thorburn wrote and performed the theme music.

He's in a band called islands. And if you stick around to the end of the episode, you know, I tell you secret. And I want you to know that up until about 15 minutes ago, this was going to be one long giant two hour episode. And then I was like, what am I doing? There's two guests. We went for like two and a half hours. This is a two episode.

This is a two parter. Duh. Also, I recorded all the asides and then I realized that my might gain was all the way down. So I had to re-record them anyway, but look at us. We're getting it up to you on a Tuesday because we love you. Also, another secret is that currently there's like a ghost in my sewer system. And the bathtub is emanating some sort of olfactory poltergeist that is

vengeful and smells like cabbage. But I have to fly to Houston for work early tomorrow morning. So Jared, I'm sorry, man, this one's on you. Thanks for dealing with it. I will bring you back some barbecue sauce or whatever Houston is known for. Okay. Next week, I'm telling you your dear questions are nuts and the answers are even nuttier. So tune in next week.

It's worth it. Okay. Brr-va.