Ologies with Alie Ward - Felinology (CATS) with Mikel Delgado

Episode Date: January 8, 2019

We love them. We live with them. We are mystified by them. Alie hunted down professional cat behavior expert Dr. Mikel Delgado who dishes on everything from toilet training to feral taming to neonatal kittens to cats eating our dead bodies to domestication, toxoplasmosis, litter box strategies, cats on leashes, why they want to sit on your laptop, how to play with cat toys the right way, why cats drool, if tigers make biscuits, catnip stupors and so much more. Get inside the head of your favorite, furry enigmas and you'll love them even more. Also: scoop that box.Dr. Mikel Delgado's Twitter, website, and business FelineMinds.comA donation was made to www.KittenCentralofPlacerCounty.orgSponsor links: trueandco.com/ologies, www.thegreatcourses.com/ologies, www.careof.com (Code: Ologies50)More links at www.alieward.com/ologies/felinologyBecome a patron of Ologies for as little as a buck a month: www.Patreon.com/ologiesOlogiesMerch.com has hats, shirts, pins, totes!Follow @Ologies on Twitter or InstagramFollow @AlieWard on Twitter or InstagramSound editing by Steven Ray Morris Theme song by Nick ThorburnSupport the show: http://Patreon.com/ologies

Oh hey, it's your step sister's weird friend who comes over and eats all your good cereal. Alleyboard. Back with another episode of Allergies. Also a mini episode went up today about some New Year's changes and they're very exciting and they're very near and dear to my heart so please take a few minutes to catch up on that news should you desire. It's a lot of really good stuff and I'm excited. Okay, so I have been waiting to cover this particular allergy for months.

But damn, whether you are currently smothered in alive cats or are adamantly a dog or a turtle person, this episode is going to inform you and endear you to our bewiskered companions. So hardcore because cats, you guys, they're not all dicks. We get into it. Okay, but first let's just wild out a little business in which I think the patrons at Patreon.com slash Allergies, you guys make the show possible. You're such good friends to the show. Thank you also to everyone wearing Allergies shirts and such from AllergiesMerch.com.

P.S., we now have black shirts available, Science Goths. And thank you to everyone who subscribes and rates and leaves a review, which you know I read. Yeah, I read them. Yeah, I'm a creep. And this week's fresh review is from number one Kuthu Stan who says, this is the science podcast my soul has craped since birth. They say it's an intoxicating blend of funny and mind-bendingly strange, 10 out of 10 would

recommend to any person, eldritch being mythological creature, gaping void of existential horror. All of the above right here. Okay, felonology. It comes from the Latin for cat, felus. And I started to go down this whole rabbit hole, toe catacomb, I'm sorry, whether or not felicity like felus and happiness and feline shared an etymology. And from what I found, they don't at all. But I did have a galaxy brain moment realizing that Felix the cat is because of feline.

Like a done, never got that. Also pocket knowledge for your next Bart trivia slaughter, a group of cats can be referred to as a cloud or better yet, a glaring. So I hope that helps you somewhere in your life. But it's taken me 70 episodes to cover felonology because I just wanted to get the best person for the job. Boy, howdy did I. She is a postdoctoral fellow in animal behavior in the school of veterinary medicine in the

University of California, Davis studying kittens, neonatal tiny kittens. And she got her bachelor's in psychology and then she got a PhD at Cal Berkeley in animal cognition and she's co-authored various papers. For example, cat play, a review of its development, functions and future research considerations. And beyond bossy, feline status aggression. So she's also the co-author alongside animal planets by cat from hell host Jackson Galaxy of the book, Total Cat Mojo, the ultimate guide to life with your cat. Woman wrote the book on cats and if you deconstruct her last name, phonetically it sounds like

of the cat in Spanish. I mean, come on. Okay, so I went to her home outside of Davis, California over the holidays. I pet her cat first off and then we chatted about cat attitudes, litter boxes, how to keep your BFF from sitting on your face at three in the morning, cats on toilets, lol videos, cat training, feral friends, optimal cat habitats, who will eat your corpse if you die alone? Kitties and their domestication history and cats, are they dicks or what? So stretch out on a patch of sun and learn what's happening in their minds with author,

scholar and felonologist Dr. Michael Delgado. It's very common people think it's Michael, so yeah. Right. I thought so. I wasn't sure. And doctor, of course. Doctor. Yes.

And so how long have you been studying cats? So coming up on 20 years, I got my start in an animal shelter in the behavior program there and got a PhD in animal behavior at UC Berkeley where I primarily studied squirrels. But I also looked at the cat-human relationship while I was at Berkeley. And I knew when I finished my PhD that I wanted to finally have the opportunity to do research with cats. And so that's one of the reasons that I was really excited to do my postdoc at UC Davis where there's a veterinary school and there's also an animal behavior program.

So it's kind of the perfect place to be studying animal behavior and the perfect place to study cats. Are cats and squirrels alike in terms of behavior at all? They're certain. I mean, I guess if you think of them as naughty, I think they both evoke strong emotions in people. Like people either really love them or really hate them, but they are kind of territorial. Their social lives are different, but neither of them lives in like a pack.

They're not animals that kind of naturally have strong relationships that make sense to us because we're very used to kind of a group kind of structure where there's a clear hierarchy and I would say neither cats nor squirrels have that kind of relationship. So are cats more of a lone wolf than wolves? So I think cats kind of have this reputation for being solitary and what they are is they're solitary hunters. So they don't need other animals to survive, right? They hunt very small prey that they can catch on their own and they don't share it, which

is different from larger animals that hunt and capture large animals. And so I think because of that, cats got this reputation for being asocial where they don't need anybody. And we know that their social lives are definitely more complicated than that. So it's like when you go out to a nice Chinese restaurant and you say, hey, should we all get like a bunch of dishes? Do family style? Cats are the friends who are like, nah, I'm just going to get my own noodles.

I don't do it. Solitary hunters. Got it. I can respect that. It's amazing. It's relatable and, dare I say, it's a little catty. Cats will form what we call preferred associates where they have certain cats that they like to hang out with and some signs of them being friends would be they groom each other.

They sleep together like touching or what we call pillowing where they're actually using another cat as a pillow. You might see playful behavior and in general, you know, you don't see a lot of signs of antagonism, although I'd say just like, you know, we don't get along with our siblings a hundred percent of the time, you might see the occasional tiff. So they have cliques. They do. And you'll see if you have a group of cats that you, you know, say if you live with five

cats, you might have two cats that get along with each other and not with anyone else. And the other three cats could be composed of, you know, one cat who doesn't get along with anybody and the other and another pair who get along or maybe there's one cat who gets along with everybody, but the rest of the cats don't really like each other. So it can be very complicated. So that's against the rules and you can't sit with us. Okay, here it is. This is a secret.

What makes a cat an asshole or not? What we do see is that cat groups are most successful when they have enough resources. So you'll see feral colonies that exist because there's either plenty of prey around or there's human supplied food. So there has to be enough to go around basically for them to tolerate each other and then have the opportunity to become friends. But yeah, if you don't have enough resources either in your home or outside or there's too much competition, they have to do too much sharing of those resources, then they tend

to either have antagonistic interactions or they'll just avoid each other. So they get bitchy when there's scarcity. Exactly. Like all of us, right? If there's not enough cookies to go around, there's going to be. I'll cut someone. Yeah, exactly. You don't have to be that person that leaves the last cookie.

You know, everyone's kind of staring at the last one, like who's going to eat it? No, you can just grab it. I'll throw hands for it. And so, you know, getting back to your history. So you have been involved with cats for 20 years now. Can you take me back to when you first kind of realized that you were maybe more of a cat person or when you really started connecting with them? Yeah.

I mean, I've always been obsessed with cats since I was a little kid. I think, you know, my mom probably got sick of me begging for a cat. And finally, when I was a teenager, she relented. But even though she was allergic, I've, I don't know, I've always just thought cats were amazing. And I loved all animals, but I definitely, like I feel awkward with dogs, which is funny because a lot of people say they find cats hard to read, but I actually find the opposite industry.

Like I can't understand dogs. Like they don't purr and I don't know. I feel awkward. I feel they're awkward. Whereas with cats, I just have always felt in tune with them and like they're kind of easy to read for me. But, you know, I definitely was not that kid who was like, oh, I'm going to be a scientist when I grow up.

I really didn't have like a plan or a clue. I dropped out of college when I was 21 because I really didn't know what I wanted to do. Well, what I wanted to do was move to California and be in a rock band, which is exactly what I did. I grew up in Maine and I basically was like, I'm moving to California. And so I moved to San Francisco and did not have any kind of plan that I was going to work with cats, even though I loved cats. You know, I worked at a health food cooperative, played in bands.

I volunteered at a punk rock record store. So my life was very much revolving around like kind of this punk scene and collective work environments. And it wasn't until that cat that I had begged my mom to get me when I was a teenager, he died in 2000. And I decided to start volunteering at the local animal shelter, which was the San Francisco SPCA. Just because I wanted more cat time.

I had another cat at home, but I knew that I just wanted to, I mean, maybe I was on the market for a new cat, but yeah, you know, which is if you work in a shelter, you know, you see them all. You get first dibs, but you know, it was also just kind of missing that connection I had. And it was actually a friend of mine, Casey, who was like, oh, you should come volunteer at the SPCA because he was volunteering there. And basically that just changed everything for me. And I realized that first of all, like, oh, you can like do this for a job.

Like you can work with animals like cool. And at the time, the SPCA had a pretty involved behavior program. And so they had a whole program for cats that was first of all rehabilitating and working with cats in the shelter that were having difficulties coping. So Michael worked at the SPCA helping these seemingly imperfect kitties who were having a hard time getting accepted into loving homes. But speaking of that, let's take a quick detour down an old cobblestone alley into the past. So when did cats go from African wildcats and like European forest animals to little

buddies who watch us pee sometimes and who we love more than our blood relatives? Let's discuss domesticity. Okay, so the domestication story for cats is a little bit complicated. And depending on which person you talk to, the question is, are they truly fully domesticated? Yeah, they don't really meet some of the criteria for domestication. And their path to domestication was not a traditional one where we didn't take them and modify them for human use. It was instead what they call commensualism, where the cats benefited from human settlements.

So that is really when cats started becoming domesticated, when humans became agrarians and started settling and had large stores of grains, which attracted rodents. So I think a lot of people think, oh, the cats are doing humans a favor by catching rodents. But it turns out that humans actually had other animals that did that just fine, like terriers and some of the weasel type animals that are good ratters. So we didn't necessarily need cats to do that for us. So cats actually benefited more from the relationship than humans did. And so what we believe is that cats that were taking advantage of this human resource, which

was basically indirectly leading to lots of mice and rats gathering around humans. So cats who could take advantage of that and were friendlier were more likely to be maybe tossed to scrap meat from a human or given shelter by humans. So probably over time, we helped cats become more tolerant of people and of each other. And so the question of whether or not cats are truly domestic, there's lots of reasons to think that they're not as domesticated. And one is that they can survive pretty well without human support. Last estimate I read was 97% of cats choose their own mates.

So domestication is usually under much more controlled breeding. So in that respect, it's more like they've become more tolerant of people and other cats over time, and we've become more interested in them over time. And it's only in the last, say, 50 years that we've kind of imposed this new lifestyle on them where we're keeping them indoors exclusively. And so it's a pretty rapid change given that their domestication is estimated over the past like eight, 10,000 years is kind of the range where you start seeing evidence of them being kept as pets.

And you see fossils that, you know, where they were buried with people in the Middle East, but really only the last 50 years that we've kind of asked them to like stay inside all the time. Oh, because they were really more like barn cats and outdoor cats before that. Yes. So the last 50 years, that's nothing. Yeah. And so that was really sped up by the invention of Kitty Letter.

Hi, I'm Ed Lowe. Since I invented Cat Boxfiller in 1947, I've been improving it ever since. You might wonder what motivates a man like me. I love cats. And then recommendations by various like veterinary and humanitarian groups that cats should be kept exclusively indoors to prevent injury, prevent, you know, predation of other animals. So so yeah, I think part of why we see this struggle a lot of times is that we've asked them to change their lifestyle very rapidly.

And yet the person doesn't even want to give them a litter box or a cat tree. Yeah. So do you have to meet cats halfway more than you would a dog? Yeah. I mean, you know, I think there's been a lot more selection with dogs for things even that might seem really minute, but like facial expressions, right? So like dogs have a lot more facial muscles. And we've probably selected them for that because we like the reflection back of human

expressions like smiling. And their eyes having white so that we can see where they're looking like it's so crazy. So what's more important to cats, their owner or their living space? I mean, if a cat had to get a full belly tattoo of one of those things, surely it would be a portrait of their owner with the inked inscription snug life, not a tattoo of like the couch, right? So we know that cats are really territorial. And so what's more important to them than anything is the familiarity of where they

live. Oh, so even before they'll form attachments with people, they need to feel comfortable in their space. And it's almost like we're part of the territory, especially because most cats live inside and so this is where they live, right? And so we're just part of their space. So it's not like we're separate from it. We're part of it.

And that's what their primary attachment is to their territory. This is my house now. So if you rip a cat out of their home and away from their people into a strange environment with a bunch of other animals that are freaking out, they're going to be really stressed. And so some cats just had a lot of difficulty coping with that change. So they'd be very fearful. They'd be hiding. Some of them would maybe be biting and scratching if you tried to pet them, which is not great

for getting adopted, right? Like people who come into a shelter, they want to be hands on, they want the cat that's going to come right up to them, you know, interact and purr and be friendly. Not draw blood. Not draw blood. Drawing blood is bad for getting adopted, although those cats eventually will get adopted, but usually just because they start adapting to the environment. So part of our goal was to just help them adjust.

So Michael really had a passion to make sure all these little kitties found homes. And she found that a clutch part of the strategy was just educating the public to be fluent in kitty. She loved it. So we had classes for the public on cat behavior and how to keep your cat happy. And then we also had a behavior hotline where people who were having problems with their cats could call. And we would get over a hundred calls a month.

Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of people out there with cat questions and cat problems, or they just don't understand their cat's natural behavior and why their cat's doing some of the things they would do. But one of the things I learned during that experience was like, I really wanted to see the home environment, like what's going on in the home or be able to talk to everyone in the household at the same time. And so in 2008, one of my coworkers and I left the shelter and started our business

feline minds. And so we offered consultations typically in home, although I do a lot of Skype and phone consultations nowadays as well, where we go to people's houses, you know, check out the scene, meet their cat, if their cat's open to it and then give them a modification plan to help them solve a behavior problem. So. Oh, so you realized from being at the shelter that you could make a job out of this? Yeah.

It's a semi-living. But yeah. But yeah, I mean, I remember the day I came home from the shelter and said to my boyfriend like, I want to be a cat behaviorist. And he was like, cool, let's, you know, make it happen. And so, so yeah, I really just sunk myself into the field of behavior. And it was around the same time that I started the business that I realized that I wanted to go back to school.

So, you know, I dropped out of college when I was 21. And here I was and realizing that even though I'd learned a lot about cats and behavior working at the shelter, that there was also this other world of kind of formal behavior theory and perhaps to do some of the things I wanted that I needed that college degree that I'd blown off when I was 21 to play rock music. And so now I was like, OK, if I'm going to really like be serious about being an adult and having a real job, like maybe I should go back to school. And so I just went to to finish my bachelor's degree in psychology with an emphasis on

animal behavior and then was like, wow, being in school is awesome. I want to do this forever. And so decided I wanted to get a PhD, which takes forever. So I was able to stay in school forever and throughout grad school did the consulting business, which is still going. So, you know, still helping people with their myriad behavior problems with their cats. And now doing postdoc, you mentioned that you work with neonatal kittens. Yeah.

So you work with tiny baby kittens. Yeah, it's gotten even cuter. So yeah, when I was doing my PhD, working with squirrels, I didn't know if it could get cuter, but then I'm doing a postdoc with kittens, so it did get cuter. And so what is your job typically involved? It really varies. So in the summer, when we were collecting data with the neonatal kittens, I might literally get a call from a rescue group that was like, we just got some orphaned kittens in, we need

to foster home now. So then it's like coordinating with one of the other rescue groups to find a foster parent for these kittens and coordinating a lot of things. We were taking blood samples on these kittens, because one of the things we're interested in is whether or not being separated from their mom at an early age has any possible effects on their health. And so we're looking at a biological marker called telomeres, which are caps at the end of your DNA, and these have a protective effect when your cells replicate.

They prevent the important stuff from getting cut off, because basically some stuff gets truncated when your cells replicate. And so what you want to get truncated is the extra garbage at the end, not the important stuff. So the telomeres are the extra stuff at the ends. And so short telomeres are associated with basically a shorter lifespan. So we see shorter telomeres in multiple species, including humans that have chronic disease that live under chronic stress, have been subjected to adverse early childhood experiences.

And so we're really looking at early maternal separation as a possible adverse experience for these kittens. We don't know, so we were collecting blood from these kittens in their first week of life when they're very, very tiny, like 100 grams. And then right before they were getting spayed and neutered at like 8 to 10 weeks of age. So for us American metrically challenged Americans, 100 grams is about the weight of half a medium sized apple or one stick of butter or 50,000 termites. So Michael's lab work involves comparing the blood and telomeres of baby kitties separated

from their moms with a control group of baby cats. So her daily work life involves coordinating foster volunteers who collect info about what goes into the kitties and what comes out of the kitties and incubation efforts like keeping these little neonatal wee ones in these special contraptions that are 90 degrees and 60% humidity. She notes it's very similar to a bread machine. And sometimes she's just running all over the place driving vital supplies around town. And I asked Michael what feelin' illogical charity she'd like a portion of this episode's ad revenue to go to.

And she said, Kitten Central of PlacerCounty.org, which I will link in the show notes. We're helping over 1,000 displaced cats from the campfire and their mission is to reduce euthanasia rates for medically dependent neonatal kittens through action and education. So that is Kitten Central of PlacerCounty.org. Okay, back to Michael and her research. Some of it is, I'm not gonna lie, it's a little shocking, a little bit of an oh no. Other days I'm literally just sitting in front of a computer typing in data into Excel or reading research papers that are relevant to what I'm doing or watching videos.

So one thing that came out of this research that we started doing this past summer was that a lot of orphaned kittens suck on each other's genitals. Okay, good to know. So I've been watching a lot of semi-pornographic videos of kittens go into town on their roommates or their littermates' crotches. Oh god. Oh no. Yeah, so the sad thing is that they will do it to the extent that they damage and injure

their littermates that they're sucking on, so some of these kittens have to have their penises removed. Oh no. It's not a good scene. No, that's bad on, bad on, bad. It's really bad. But it's very, like the videos are very risque, like I don't know if I could show them in a mixed audience with children or whatever.

When you said you watch a lot of cat videos, it is not what I was thinking because most people's cat videos are like, he knocks them off his shelf again. Not he ate his brother's penis, but oof. And so they're just looking for anything that's like a nipple. So what it really just tells us is that the nursing instinct is very strong for obvious reasons. You need to nurse to survive, but it's obviously not just satisfied by food and there's probably a lot of other reasons that animals do it.

We know that there's a lot of non-nutritive nursing that goes on. Who knows what the actual experience of sucking is doing for their little brains as far as releasing like endorphins or anything like that. Yeah, like oxytocin. Yeah, maybe. I mean, we don't know. So yeah, some kittens are victims and suckers, so you'll have like a little daisy chain of kittens.

Oh no, it's like human centipede. It is. So it's, it's very, so anyway, this is, because we became aware of this problem. And there's very little information about it, like no one's researched it and no one's really come up with effective solutions for it. That's become one of the focuses of my research. And so hopefully next year we'll be looking at some possible prevention strategies, including like a surrogate mother type situation.

And you have other people that do things like put clothing on the kittens, which, you know, ethically is a little questionable, may not be comfortable. So, you know, of course, it's better than the kittens like basically destroying their, their littermates junk. But I'd rather wear pants than have someone eat my dick off my body. Yeah. So, so anyway, we're, we're trying to come up with some strategies to fix that problem and also try to understand what it is about these particular kittens that makes them more

prone to this behavior. So even though research like this could be a little heartbreaking and honestly pretty gut wrenching, Michael says that after working with lab animals like pigeons in her undergrad years, she's a lot happier now doing research with wild or domesticated critters because she just loves animals, especially cats. And she wants her research to be good or the very least neutral for the individual animals involved. So let's look at the bright side.

The kittens in her study end up adopted. So that's a happy ending. Oh, and I asked what the outcome of the telomere length was and she says they're working with a genetics lab and they should have the results in the next few months. All right. So if you're around kittens all day, what happens in your off hours? When you need to decompress after a particularly long day or project, do you watch cat videos like the rest of us do?

Oh, yeah, absolutely. That is, yeah. I mean, that's what Facebook's for, right? Why do you think cat videos do so well and do you have a favorite? I'm just going to ask you stupid questions. Well, okay. I like cats. I make feelings about cat videos because I'm very, I think I'm more sensitive to their

body language than people are. So I, you know, that people that don't know cats as well. So I sometimes see videos where the cats are actually showing signs of stress. Oh no. And people think it's funny. Oh no. I also don't like cats dressed up in clothing. Okay.

So that's just philosophical. I don't like it when the cats are being physically manipulated. I like the, you know, cats shredding rolls of toilet paper. Like that never gets old to me. How can you tell in a cat video if the cat is stressed? Well, I'm always looking at, is the cat showing signs of relaxation or showing signs of tension? And so what's their body doing? Does it look like they're being either threatened or coerced into something, cornered?

If it's a cat who's showing signs of aggression, then I feel like that is not a good situation like cats being exploited. And like I said, people don't recognize that aggression, growling, hissing, all of those behaviors stem from fear. Why you're nothing but a great big coward. I even scare myself. Even a cat who is like actively like attacking someone, the root of that aggression is always some type of anxiety or fear.

And that means the animal is experiencing some level of distress. It's just like humans. I mean, every time some jerk off yells at you in traffic, it's just because they're afraid of merging too fast and getting in an accident, or they might be scared of being late somewhere and getting yelled at. And if you're the one screaming at people in traffic, here's some news, my fragile human. You're just afraid of things. So maybe take a minute, look inward, find some coping strategies.

You could listen to my two part virology episode with Mary Poff and Roth, just saying, calm it down. Okay. Let's get back to cats being scared for internet likes. So to me, it's just not funny. You know, if it's a cat who's like trying to, you know, make a jump from the kitchen table to the couch and they don't quite make it, you know, as long as they're not injured, you know, physical gags.

Okay. Old style comedy. Okay. And I do have a question about how they are able to land so well. Did you ever have to study their landing capabilities? No, but, you know, they do have this amazing, well, an amazingly flexible body, basically. They have no collar bone. Oh.

That allows them to, like, if their head can get through, if their face is through, like, under a door, they can just squeeze right through, which is why you shouldn't leave your window open just an inch, thinking your cat won't get out. I'm out. So they have, you know, this amazing sense of balance. I mean, you know, they have to catch trees. They have to be able to calculate distance when they hunt and be able to pounce right where they think they are.

They have that amazing tail that helps them write themselves. So a tail is a good way to orient your body, like it's kind of a control to allow you to write yourself. What's interesting is that there's something called high rise syndrome, where cats who fall from a higher distance often experience fewer injuries than cats that fall from a shorter distance. So they have time in the air to go, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, okay. Okay, this is what's happening.

Yeah. So probably not a lot of time, but enough, yeah. And now you have a cat. Let's say someone has a cat, right? How do they know if their cat is happy, is sad, is bummed out, needs something? What language, what body language markers are so important to know if you have a cat? Yeah. So first of all, is your cat doing the basics?

Are they eating, using the litter box, and are they, you know, using their space? So a cat who's spending all their time under your bed, probably not happy. A cat who is freely walking through the space, probably more relaxed. Specific body language we're interested in. So for cats, when they're feeling friendly, they'll do what we call the tail up gesture. So this is a friendly greeting. And the tail is completely up, maybe in a slight question mark, but that is something you'll see cats when they approach either a friendly human or a friendly other cat.

They will be exhibiting that body language. You can also see when they're laying down, they should be either on their side sometimes, like or paws tucked, which tells you they're not kind of gearing to run away. Cat who is feeling defensive or unsure is going to be kind of crouched in a tense position where they could easily just take off if they needed to, as opposed to I'm laying down and just kind of melting in the sun over here. Therefore I'm not feeling any threat. And then there are more subtle things like, you know, are the pupils relaxed and somewhat

dilated? According to the lighting in the room, are the ears up? Ears up is more relaxed can be alert as well, but you know, certainly flattened ears are a sign of a cat who's making themselves smaller. So, so yeah, you'll see things that cats do when they're fearful aside from hiding would be like tucking their tail, putting their ears back, hunching. So they're trying to again make themselves seem smaller. A cat who is on the offensive might be trying to make themselves look bigger.

So that's kind of the classic Halloween pose where they're kind of puffed up and you'll see that more reserved for fighting with other animals where they're trying to bluff. Like I'm big and scary. You shouldn't fight with me because I'm big and scary for cats in a home. It's really more about, like I said, using the space, doing their normal kitty things. I mean, purring is great. Eye blanking is a sign of relaxation and a sign of trust. So we know that staring is threatening to most animals, so you shouldn't stare at your

cat. Oh, really? So don't make loving eye contact with your cat for too long. Eye contact's fine, but make it soft and blink your eyes a lot as opposed to hard stare. Like a hard stare is what is, is threatening for them. And you'll see cats that don't get along will avoid direct eye contact or the one cat will be like staring you down or staring the other cat down. Like I've got my eyes on you.

Oh, wow. I didn't know that. So eye contact is very important. Cats may be fearful of particular people in the house, so like toddlers can be difficult for cats to cope with. But it really depends on the context and the cat's ability to escape and deal with the stressor in their environment. So to deal with it, some cats get high as fuck, like literally elevated, like top of

the fridge, et cetera. So a cat who has a cat tree or a shelving and can get up high away from a dog or a toddler is going to be able to cope with that situation much better than a cat who doesn't have those escape routes. What do you do when you walk into someone's house as a cat? How can you make the cat dig you? It's better to get low, not look at it. What should you do?

You should ghost them. Really? You should just ignore them a little bit? You should ignore them a little bit. Really? Yeah. Wow. So the opposite of a dog, because the dog would be crushed if you walked in and you're

like, what dog? Yeah. I don't say a dog. I'm a doggoster for sure. Okay. So what we've learned is just because they're not dogs doesn't mean that cats are assholes. They could be scared or just territorial. But why do cats like you to be an asshole to them?

Why do we have to play hard to get? Like it's 2007 and that dating book, The Rules, just came out and we're not supposed to accept a Saturday night date with a cat if they ask after Wednesday, why must we feign aloofness when we want love? For cats, yeah. So research has shown that they prefer interactions with humans where they control the interaction. So they actually, when they initiate and not the human. So if a person approaches a cat and pets them versus sitting back and letting the cat come

to you, the cats who come to you, you're going to have a longer interaction, it's going to be more positive. Oh my God. Yeah. Which is pretty funny. So what I would recommend if you do want to greet a cat is get down on the level, offer a finger or your hand to them, let them sniff it and then let them decide if they want to rub against your hand or come closer or if they're going to just, okay, keep your distance.

Let's say that you adopt an elegant furry enigma and it's so sweet to you, but it hates your brother or your child. Why does one cat file a lawsuit against you when you turn on the vacuum, but the others chill as hell? And as far as your question, do cats prefer certain types of people over the others? Some of it is probably due to socialization. So cats have a socialization window that's really short and early. So between two and seven weeks is the ideal time for them to be exposed to different

types of people, different animals and different experiences like sounds in your house, like your coffee grinder or a blender. Oh. Unfortunately, most cats don't get adopted between two and seven weeks of age because they really need to be with mom still or they're still on foster or they're not even in the rescue group yet. They're still out in the cabbage patch like being wild. And so, you know, unfortunately, a lot of cats are what we would consider slightly undersocialized.

They didn't get a lot of exposure to lots of different things when they were young. For dogs, their socialization period is later and longer. So it means that they're more flexible and adaptable because you can kind of take a slightly more laid back pace with socializing them. They just have more opportunity to get exposed to different people, different things. So a lot of cats probably grow up in a very quiet environment. Maybe they're exposed to one person who's bottle feeding them at first and then taking care of them.

And so when they get into a home, it's like, holy shit, like, what are you? So yeah, I think some cats that prefer women because women have higher voices, we're quieter, our foot follows softer, we're not as threatening. And I think what's also important to consider about cats is that we think of them as predators, right? Like that's very much our focus on, you know, keeping cats indoors or killing birds, you know, and they're hunters and that's natural for them, but they're also prey animals. So they're not an apex predator.

And so they're vulnerable to larger animals, including humans, but also, you know, dogs in, you know, more outside environments, wolves, possibly even hawks. So they're always on guard. They're not going to be that relaxed, like sleepy lion that we often kind of think of them as like because they never know when someone's going to come and eat them. So that is why I think, you know, the kind of scaredy cat stereotype prevails is that they have to be cautious. They're just watching their back.

They're watching their back. Oh, man. So you have this really kind of delicate balance of hunter and hunted in them. They're complex psychologically. Yes, they are. Like people really, because they don't understand cats, they like to project that. It's like they're, I don't understand you, so I'm just going to make up stuff and hope that it is right.

So I'm going to think you want to kill me, you know, or think that you're lazy or you think people are stupid. You know, a lot of the, I think a lot of the internet kind of jokes about cats are that they're assholes and they want to kill us, right? Yes. They're, they hate us. They, you know, know we're calling them, but they just ignore us because they're assholes. Right.

They're judging us all the time. Exactly. They probably are judging us all the time as the, as we're talking about this, your cat is now hopped on the table. She is going to perhaps make an appearance. Okay. So at this moment, a wispy white and gray little animal princess named Clairabelle just suddenly appeared on the table, just materialized and she's tiny and beautiful with these big

green eyes. And I wanted to just scoop her up and stuff her by sweatshirt and demand that she loved me back. But as I have recently learned, cats are not down with that vibe. Hello. She's so pretty. She's very sweet. And she's 15.

Okay. I'm going to put my finger out. She can smell my finger. She's smelling the mic. Oh my gosh. Hello. Now, should I not pet her? Um, so, you know, I think the other thing about the laws of cats is that the best thing

to do is, is know the cat you're dealing with. So, you know, we know from science that cats prefer to be petted on their head like their cheek and forehead and that everywhere else is kind of eh, but some cats love belly rubs. And you know, there's only one way to find out, which is like pet your cat and see what they do. If they tell you they don't like something, then don't do it again. If they seem to like it, try it again and see. So they're very individual.

They are. I mean, just like we are. Thinking of them as individuals is very important to understanding them. And there are general kind of guidelines that apply, but that doesn't mean that your cat is going to, of course, fit into every single one of those slots. And when you're thinking about making your environment more comfortable to them, I, what kind of tips do you have? You know, the first thing is embrace that your house is going to look like you live

with a cat. You know, it really drives me crazy when people say, well, I don't want my house to look like I live with a cat. Well, why do you have four cats? Like I'm sorry, but you need to have a litter box that's accessible and not in the garage, you know, with some like 10 mile trail and walking through a billion cat flaps to get to. Yeah.

And you need vertical space. You need to create spaces for your cat. And a lot of people like, oh, he just sits on the couch with me. What if he doesn't want to share the couch with you? He wants his own space. And so you're not going to sit on his cat tree. So give him a cat tree. And so, you know, I think it's definitely critical for a few reasons.

You know, one is that we're increasingly living in urban spaces that are small and we want to have multiple cats and we're trying to get them to share smaller and smaller spaces. So going vertical is a great way to add to your square footage as far as the cats are concerned. You can have two cats literally on top of each other on a cat tree. They're sharing the same square footage, but they're not like bothering each other. So I think, you know, making it useful as well, like don't stick the cat tree in the back corner where they can't look at anything.

Like put it by a window where they can watch birds, put it in a sunny spot, like make it something that's appealing to them. So quick aside, I will say that when I walked up to Michael's house, I noted a single tall carpet ensconced cat tree right in the front window, as if it were cat tree season. And this was the Macy's window display. I was like, oh, hello. Oh, I'm right in the sun. I wondered, do cats like that?

Turns out, yes, like, duh, how much better is a window seat than a middle seat? How have I never considered this before? Also, this part about heat was new science kitty information and it forever changes the way I look at cat behavior. The other thing that I definitely recommend for making your cats comfortable is a heated cat bed. Oh. So cats have a thermonutrile zone that's higher than ours.

And a thermonutrile zone is basically the temperatures at which you're not working to either warm up or cool off. So we're not sweating, we're not shivering, we're just relaxed. And for humans, you know, because we wear clothes, our thermonutrile zone is pretty low. It's, you know, high 60s, low 70s is where we're comfortable. It's like starting in the mid-80s. Really?

Yes. Oh my gosh, because, but they're nude, but they're also so fuzzy, they're constantly in a fur coat. They are fuzzy, but, you know, they're definitely not, they didn't necessarily, you know, imagine themselves living in chilly, frigid climes, except for, you know, certainly there's long-haired cats that basically were domesticated out of certain areas of like Eastern Europe where they have longer, fuller coats. But your average cat is going to be much happier at a warmer temperature.

Now, if you get a heated bed, will your cat stop sitting on your lap as much? Maybe, because the bed is warmer than you are now. But I do think that it really makes them much more hap, makes them happier, makes them more comfortable. There's a reason that cats congregate around heating vents. They love to be hot. Is that why they want to come on your laptop? On your laptop, absolutely.

Really? Full boxes, stereos, computers, laptops, if it's warm, they're going to try to sit on it. So they're not just trying to cock-block your work. Well, you know, I think, you know, the other thing, of course, the other motivating factor is human attention. What are we staring at more than almost anything? Or, it's deep ass computer screens.

So if they can somehow get in there, like, hey, will you give me some attention? You know, cats will get attention when they can. And so the other question I get asked a lot is, like, why does my cat follow me into the bathroom and, like, try to sit on my lap while I'm taking a dump? Yeah. It's because it's, like, the only time that you're not running around, like, texting people or maybe you are texting people. Scrolling.

But you're basically, your attention is not divided. You can't get up and, like, do something else. So they're going to grab a little love while they can. So you're held captive by the toilet, so they're like, this is a good time? Is this a, you seem to be stationary? Let's talk about me. Oh, my God. Actually speaking of bathrooms, how do you cultivate the best litter box scenario and

also have your house not smell like a litter box? Your house does not smell like a litter box. I appreciate that. I clean our box daily. And just for the record, there's a litter box around the corner. Oh, so yeah, I didn't even smell it. I have a litter box in my living room. I practice what I preach.

And I have three litter boxes in my relatively small house for my one cat. So you know, there's kind of some basic rules for litter boxes, like have at least one box per cat. You get a litter box, you get a litter box, you get a litter box. More is even better. So if you have two cats, three boxes would be ideal. Keep them clean. And so one of the reasons I don't recommend covered litter boxes is, I mean, it's up

for debate whether or not cats don't like the cover or not. I mean, the cover definitely limits their ability to move around and find a clean corner and feel comfortable. But it also means that the owner is not cleaning the box as often and there's actually research that showed that cats with litter box problems with covered boxes, the owners were cleaning the box around every five days. Because it's out of sight, out of mind. So I actually prefer like have it where you live because you will keep it clean.

So it should be accessible to the cat. I think because we don't like to take a dump in front of other people usually, we think that the cats want a lot of privacy. And so, you know, people hide the box in some, you know, back room next to the washing machine or in the garage, like, because they think the cat needs privacy. The cat does not give a care, you know, they will take a dump right in front of you. So, you know, it should be, obviously, if you have a home that's heavily trafficked, then you probably wouldn't want the litter box in the middle of the most trafficked area

of your house. But, you know, so quiet, but not too far out of the way, it should be accessible and easy for them to get to. And just like we want a bathroom on every floor of our house, your cat wants a litter box on every floor of their house. And this is especially important if you have a cat who is either elderly or a kitten, because access is going to be important. As far as other aspects of the litter box, you know, most cats prefer unscented, sandy

type litter that clumps and really the biggest thing is scooping it. There was a study done by Purina a few years ago that was actually pretty genius. So the main question was whether or not cats were willing to share a litter box with another cat. So, Michael told me all about this study in wonderful, disgusting detail, but I'm going to summarize it for you. So cats prefer a clean litter box over a dirty one. Not any breaking news there.

But then a researcher made odorless fake number one and fake number two little decoy turds, if you will. And in between the real stinky stuff and the fake non-stinky stuff, are you ready for this? So the question was really does like a stinky box bother cats. And it turns out that what they really don't like is trying to, you know, basically walk around these bombs in the box that are creating probably a sensation that is unpleasant for them when they're scratching and digging around. So the most important thing is just scooping it a lot.

Scoop that box. Scoop it. What do you think the biggest myth about cats is? What's the biggest flim flam you debunk? Let's see. Well, I think, you know, one of the things I always encourage people to recognize is that cats are not small humans and they're not small dogs. And I also think probably the biggest myth is that cats can't be trained.

So a lot of people don't realize that you can change their behavior. So a lot of cats end up in shelters because of behavior problems and a lot of these behavior problems are fixable. Oh. See, you're surprised. I am surprised. Also, can you train them to use the toilet? Do they hate it?

Okay. They hate it. You can. I mean, you can train them to do anything under coercion, right? Okay. So, but, and I won't say they hate it. There's certainly the rare cat out there that just spontaneously uses the toilet. And if your cat does that, great.

But I would say still have that litter box handy. I've definitely had clients who had trained their cat to use the litter box. I'm sorry to use the toilet. And now their cat is peeing around the house and it's like, just give them a litter box. Or maybe if your cat is very fancy, you give them a glitter box. Just kidding. That's a very bad idea, no matter how into disco they are. And side note, I did some research to find out if kitty glitter is a thing.

And I found a blog post from a cat owner all about a new glitter box brand, sparkly gold litter that promises every scoop is like a treasure hunt. And one might be inclined to fall for it, but the post was made on April the 1st. And to really yield the lily, the brand was named Jester. So yes, that was a prank and no, disco shit boxes are not a thing. So on the topic of falsehoods. Back to this myth that cats can't be trained. So probably one of the more common reasons that we get called to help people is that

their cat is, for example, waking them up at three in the morning for food or to be let out or, you know, some just to be an asshole. And it's actually a relatively easy behavior to fix compared to things like cats fighting. And some of it is training and training your cat when to expect attention, when to expect food. And a lot of people inadvertently train their cats to wake them up. So it's, it's actually that they're reinforcing the behavior because typically when a cat is walking on someone's head at four in the morning or meowing for food, the person gets

up and puts food down because they're like, just shut the fuck up. I want to get back to sleep. And so in the short term, that's the quickest way to fix the problem. In the long term, that's actually training the cat that, well, if you just persist long enough, your human will get up and give you what you want, whether it's food or petting, attention, same thing with cats that like get up on counters. Typically people like go and chase the cat down or pick them up and put them on the floor. The cat jumps right back up, person picks them up, puts them on the floor again.

Well, guess who's having the time of his life? The cat, he loves it. It's a game. And if your cat is bored and under stimulated and doesn't have other ways to get praise attention or other rewards, then they're going to do things that piss you off. Oh, is that why they knock things off shelves? Yeah. I mean, you know, a good clue is whether or not it happens when you're home or not.

So if you're at work and your cat does not knock things off your shelves, they only do it when you're home, they're doing it for attention. Never forget, your cat is a furry poltergeist who loves you. Or perhaps it's their spade and neutered gonads just trapped in a realm between the living and the dead that caused mischief. Who knows? Either way, quick PSA, spade and neuter cats. Okay.

So they want your attention, though. And this gets back into, back to setting up a good environment for your cat. So the vertical space and birdwatching, but also making sure your cat is getting daily exercise, whether that's like with a cat dancer type toy or taking them out on a harness for a walk. Do they hate that? No. Really?

They love it. Oh, I love a cat on a leash. Yeah. Our cat loves it. Really? Yeah. I mean, she's old, so she just wants to go outside and like roll around in the sun for, you know, 15 minutes and then come back inside.

She's actually really bummed now that it's winter. When it was like 95 out, she would just happily lay in the sun for an hour. And now if she wants to go outside, we take her out and she's like, um, it's broken. Like the heat's off. Can you turn the heat on out here? So remember, I mentioned that Michael has written papers on what kind of play is the best for cats. Is it like Sudoku?

Is it having them jog behind you outside? Chasing a feather wand attached to your fanny pack? Probably not. So for cats, a lot of play should be really more about the calculating their, their final pounce and not just like running around chasing the feather wand, but, but stalking it and watching it while you move it very slowly. Maybe you're acting like a wounded bird or like, um, you know, hiding behind a piece of furniture and shaking like you're terrified.

And then woo, you swoop out and, um, that's your cat's moment to pounce and kill. And so I jokingly call it kitty foreplay because I think when cats play with their cats, they really just want to like whip the toy around and then like, they can't be tired and done. Um, whereas the cat is like, can we go as slow as possible? And like, you know, just move to the right a little bit, move the toy to the left. There's an arc to it. There is.

And, and so it is a buildup for the cat to again, that perfect moment where they would be hunting and killing. And so you really only have one chance to kill a bird, right? If you're a cat, if you fuck it up, that bird's taken off. And so you really have to plan appropriately and get, get close enough. So you can make that last jump and like, get it. And so that, that is what stimulates them, their brains and their muscles. Yeah.

And their body is really tuned into hunting. So their eyes are, you know, designed for hunting in, for example, lower light conditions and to detect horizontal movement. That's about three meters away from them. So up close, their vision is really terrible. So when you're holding your cat and like, I'll lovey eyes with them, you are just a blur, but they can probably smell you very well. And so, um, that's probably what they're most, you know, in tune with when they're

that close to you. And are they nocturnal? No. Okay. They're crepuscular crepuscular. Oh, so they're active at dawn and dusk, which is when their prey is most active. Now cats that are not given enough to do during the day, I would say are going to be what people would consider nocturnal because you haven't really taken

advantage of their natural activity cycle. And so this gets back to that idea. Your cat's keeping you up all night. It's because they're sleeping all day. And so, um, a great time to engage your cat and play would be at dawn and dusk because that's kind of their natural rhythm to be active. And certainly throughout the day, it's good to keep them moving, stimulated, not just snoozing all day, um, and then play with them at nighttime before you

go to bed, maybe give them a snack before bedtime. And that will help them sleep more soundly through the night. Oh, good to know. So if you were sleeping all day, chances are you'd be up all night too. Right. So there you go. Yeah. Can I ask you questions from listeners?

Of course. I didn't know you had questions. I do. Is it okay? Do you have time? Yeah. Okay. Okay.

So before we get into the Patreon questions, we have a new feature, ads. So this has been eight months of negotiations to find the right company that gets allergies and the kind of ads I'd want to do today. I put up a mini-sode explaining all about it, explaining the free things like transcripts for the hearing impaired, bleeped versions for kiddos, and a donation for every episode going forward to a relevant charity. So if you're supporting on Patreon, stick with me. You're not only helping me make this show and pay editors, but you're also keeping

those accessibility perks free for everyone. And I've been working with advertisers. I really dig to spread the word about the things they do. And I didn't want to do normal ads. So I posted on Patreon, I asked my oligite BFF tier to just DM their phone numbers if they wanted, and they did. So then I just called a few individually. We shot the ship for a while.

And as long as I had them on the horn, I told them about our sponsors. So they're edited. I got permission, of course. And now listener questions from patrons about cats. I let people on Patreon ask questions. So the patrons wrote in, I've never gotten so many questions. Really? Okay, let's categorize them as best I can.

Oh my gosh. So this is like a lightning round. You can just answer as fast as you want. I'll try as fast as you can. Tia Rialto, Raudio wants to know, why does my cat put her butthole in my face? So that is how cats greet each other, right? So they, um, but sniffing is an important way to get information. There you go.

Yeah. Um, it's just a, Hey, Christopher Brewer wants to know best way to tame a feral cat. So as I talked about before, you know, you have the socialization window where, um, you know, if you can get a cat when they're young, you can really turn them into a lovely pet. Um, once they're outside of that window, it's like, it's not that the door shuts. It just is like, you have to nudge it a lot harder to get it to open. And so if you have an adult cat who's truly never been socialized around people, then now you're not socializing, you're doing what we call counter conditioning and

desensitization, where you're just gradually getting them used to your presence and trying to associate it with things that they find pleasant. And so it would be like taming a wild animal. Oh yeah. But it's going to be a long and slow road and that cat may only ever adapt to one or two people that they're very familiar with. So the ways you would do that would be to build trust with something, um, basically gradually exposing yourself to them.

So keeping a distance at first and trying to pair your presence with something that they find pleasant, like food, typically tuna or something very high value. Like it would have to be like bonus, like basically, it might be a very slow process. There have been some people that have found that, um, like rehabilitating an injured or sick cat has sped up the process and we don't know why that is. And that's just anecdotal, but, um, something that John Bradshaw wrote about in his book, Cat Sense. And, um, but otherwise, like I said, you're really literally, like you said,

taming and the difference between socialization and taming is that socialization implies that you're, you're able to change their behavior when they're highly plastic and able to be, um, kind of molded to your liking. Whereas after that door has shut, it's going to be really just like, you're going to love me because you're going to think of sashimi when you see me. So just getting them used to you and associations that are good. Yeah. I feel like this also works for people too.

Like if every time you saw someone, you were just rad as hell to them and you handed them a shepherd's pie or a tastefully potted succulent. They'd be like, whoa, you are dope. And now I like you. Now, one thing that is not dope is toxoplasmosis, a parasitic infection often linked to kitties. So according to the Centers for Disease Control, quote, toxoplasmosis is considered to be a leading cause of death attributed to foodborne illnesses in

the United States. So more than 40 million men, women and children in the U S carry the toxoplasma parasite, but very few have symptoms because the immune system usually keeps the parasite from causing illness. So let's get into this shit in every way imaginable. A lot of people asked about toxoplasmosis. Oryx, Issa, Sarah Clark, Don, Jen Durbin, Ian Robertson, all kind of wanted to know what's the deal with toxoplasma.

Gandhi, our cats unwittingly subjecting us to mind control, essentially. Yeah. This is definitely one of my, this is probably actually when you asked about like the, the myths about cats that drive me crazy. This is one of them. Oh, okay. So cat ownership is not considered to be a risk factor for toxoplasmosis by the CDC, they don't recommend that you get rid of a cat.

Now, what is true is that cats digestive system is the optimum environment for toxoplasmosis to reproduce. So they are definitely associated with it. How people typically get it is not from cats directly, but from eating contaminated meat or vegetables that have not been cleaned or prepared properly, which is probably from feces being, you know, so a garden where there's cat poop, there may be toxo in it. The best way to protect yourself from toxoplasmosis is to clean your cat's

litter box every day because the osists need over 24 hours to hatch basically. So if the poop is fresh, it's good. You can just handle it, wash your hands after, and you're not going to be exposed to toxo. Of course, keeping your cats indoors is probably the other safest way to avoid it. The research associating it with, you know, psychological disorders has, you know, I'd say it's mixed and there's a pretty lengthy publication a couple of years ago out of Britain that showed with a longitudinal study, no association

of cat ownership with and toxoplasmosis with mental health disorders. So I think those stories get a lot of hype and it really feeds into this idea that cats are somehow fucking with us because of trying to control our minds. And, you know, certainly people who do have toxo, you know, for example, the men find the odor of cat pee pleasant, which is weird. And, you know, rats that are infected with it also are not afraid of cat urine, which is not normal. So, so we know that it can have the effects on the brain and I don't question

that at all. It's really the direct link from having a cat to getting toxoplasmosis that kind of drives me crazy because, again, the CDC does not consider it a risk. The, the, of course, if you are, you know, compromised or pregnant, then you have to take extra care about handling cat feces. But again, if you clean the box every day, you are at zero risk, basically. And so it's, it's really more about perhaps the link between your bad hygiene and your mental health.

Oh, snap. Those people, you know, but again, it makes, it makes for good click bait. So I think people really latch on to this story quite easily. That's, that's such a good flim flam to debunk. I'm so glad that they asked. I'm really glad they asked. Um, let's see. Jamie Drew and Jen Durbin both want to know about drool.

Um, Jamie Drew's 11 year old Meredith asks, why does my cat drool when he's happy? There's different reasons that cats may drool and they may be as simple as they're missing a tooth or, um, so there's more opportunity for the drool to drip out or they're relaxed. So their, their jaw muscle isn't as tight. And so, um, the drool can flow more freely, much like when you're falling asleep and you're, um, on a plane, for example, hanging open and then you're like, um, been there, done that.

Yeah. So I think, um, it's probably just a sign of relaxation. It could be a sign of a dental problem if it's really like stinky and your cat does not seem to be happy when they're drooling. So during their yearly checkup, I would say have your vet check their teeth. So side note, I double checked on this. And yep, it's just a sign of relaxation and slack, jawed comfort. So some cats just drool when they're happy and some don't, but unless it's sudden

and could be due to a dental issue, just look at it as mouth tears of joy. But it might just be happiness. It might just be happiness. Which is amazing. Um, let's see. I had several people ask this question. Kelly Windsor, Andrea Matica, I believe, um, Juan Pedro Martinez, Christopher Burr, and Sarah Walker all wanted to know essentially about biscuits.

Um, why do cats need their lap or their bed? What are they doing when they're making biscuits? They're trying to get milk out of you. You are a giant boob. What are they? But if they're adults, are they just hungry? Are they? Yeah.

So, you know, one, one thing that has possibly happened through domestication, which is typical is that we select for juvenile traits, right? So we keep our animal somewhat stunted, like emotionally, developmentally, through domestication. And honestly, I don't know if, like, lions and tigers make biscuits. I don't know. That's a great question, actually. I need to find out.

Quick aside, do tigers make biscuits? They sure as shit do, my friend. So I found an article on Mental Floss with Susan Bass of the Big Cat Rescue in Tampa, Florida. And she says, yep, but they don't purr. According to an article by the Library of Congress, lions, leopards, jaguars, tigers, snow leopards do not exhibit true purring. They can make a purr-like sound. But wildcats like Bobcats and Cheetahs, Eurasian Lynx, Pumas and Wildcats, they purr.

But let's get back to biscuits. But, you know, the the kneading or, you know, biscuits, muffins, whatever you like to call it is how kittens get milk from mom. And it's adorable when you see them doing it, but they're kneading the mammary glands to get milk out. And so for some animals, they stop engaging in juvenile behaviors and others continue throughout their life. And it tends to be at times where they're happy, right?

And so time with mom is a very happy time. There's a lot of oxytocin flowing. There's a lot of purring going on, which we believe stimulates oxytocin. And so, you know, we always just say they're kind of in the mommy's own when they're nursing. And so they might be trying to comfort themselves or they might just be very, very happy. They might just like you.

Yeah. And if it bothers, I know a lot of people it bothers them because mostly because it hurts if their kitty's nails are sharp. And so either, you know, trim your cat's nails or get a nice, like fuzzy blanket to put on your lap when your cat does it. And then it won't make its way to your legs. Now let's talk about cats and drugs. Christina, Dawn, Schwartz, Danny, Buck Heister, Brent, Monsier, Madeline Heising

and Mary Fuller all asked, what is the story with cat nip? What happens to their brains? Like, are they stoned? What's going on? Another question where we don't really know the like neuroscience behind it, because as far as I know, you know, one, you can't at this stage do like a functional MRI on a cat and see live what their brain's doing without probably doing some pretty heavy invasive stuff.

In which case you might be screwing up the the catnip response. So the chemical composition of catnip is pretty similar to some of the chemical compositions actually of females, estrus, like really juices, I guess, for lack of a better term juice, juice, not all cats respond to catnip. It's a genetic trait that seems to be a autosomal dominant trait. And but cats who don't respond to catnip often respond to other plants. So catnip is not the only catnip out there. There's Japanese catnip, which is silver vine, which more cats respond

to silver vine than cabinet catnip. And you're starting to see it's hitting the market. So if you're not hip to silver vine yet, don't worry, it will be at a pet store near you before you know it. It's like a matcha latte. Yes, exactly. And some cats also love valerian root and honeysuckle are two other very commonly used olfactory stimulants for cats.

And it seems to have different effects on different cats. So again, your cat is an individual. First of all, your cat may not even respond. So about 60% of cats respond to catnip. So your cat might be the 40% straight edge kitties that are not interested. Thank you very much. But it's always worth a try. Some cats get more worked up and excited on catnip and other cats get more mellow

and just kind of roll around. And some cats like to eat catnip. So I'm just like to sniff it. And so it's one of those things where no, no, your cat, are they a happy drunk or a mean drunk and use accordingly. If you leave it out all the time, they do stop responding as strongly to it. So we typically recommend that you, you know, store it in a jar or maybe put all their catnip toys in a jar with cat and fresh catnip.

And then they can remain potent. And then when you take them out again later, they'll be excited again. But if you leave it out all the time, it'll lose its excitement. But as far as like what is going on in their brains, I don't think anyone's looked that carefully. There's been a lot of studies of their behavior while they're using catnip. And we typically see things like rolling. Some of the behaviors are playful.

Some of them are sexual or similar to sexual behaviors, like the kind of rolling and presenting type behaviors. And some are just very, you know, relaxed and mellow. So yeah, I think there's still a lot of debate as to whether it's, it induces play or something else. Or if it's like Viagra. Yeah. Okay, I did look this up.

And while up to a third of all cats just aren't into it, they lack the gene. They're like, get this trashy mint out of my face. I did find one source that said some male cats when exposed to catnip, get a little too rambunctious, bordering on aggression, tort up on the herb. Katie Cobb and Bob Ogden both want to know why do cats love sitting in boxes? What is it with their boxes? Okay, so it gets back to the predator and prey. Like they need like a safe blind where basically they can like spy on the

world without being detected. So it gives them a sense of security as far as we can tell. Cats typically, you know, for example, hunt behind, you know, they're going to be hiding in a shrub or like behind some grasses. And so it gives them some protection, offers heat, which is always a bonus. Smaller the boxes, the more heat it's going to conduct. Right. Yeah.

So, um, and we also know that actually there was a study that showed that cats that got boxes in animal shelters were less stressed out than cats who did not. So, so boxes can be a real place of security for cats. And, um, yeah, again, it probably makes them feel safe. And, um, I think anything, it's not like there's some magical, like your cat loves Amazon or anything, it's just, um. Smells like rats. It's really just, they like being enclosed and having this like little sense

of security where they can kind of see what's going on, but they're partly hidden. Oh my gosh, that's so cute though. And yes, tigers, lions and other big cats at sanctuaries just hang out in boxes. It's cat in a box, just real big ones. So how many videos did I watch? One, I got my answer for this aside. And then I continued watching at least eight more large cats playing in large boxes, just wasting some quality American time on the internet.

Okay. Let's talk bird murder. Adam Hallahan and A.J. Shlebnik said, do outdoor cats really kill billions of birds each year? How bad is this for the environment really? They hear different things from cat advocates versus bird advocates. Curious. Okay.

So cats do get like 100% of the blame for bird deaths, even though they're not 100% responsible for bird deaths, a lot of bird deaths are happening because of human encroachment on bird territory. So I think, you know, first of all, we should recognize that cats are not the only killer of birds. Rats are also a huge killer of birds. So what do we do about cats killing birds? I mean, I firmly believe that people should keep their cats indoors if they

have pet cats. So let's reduce the damage and be responsible pet owners and take your cat on on a harness or build a patio for your cat so they can enjoy some fresh air and outdoor time without being loose and catching birds. I'm sorry, I just had to bust in and say, what is a patio? I had never heard this word before and you bet your butt crack. I looked it up. So it's like a mesh enclosure, kind of a tasteful cage that either connects

inside the house via a window or a tunnel or a cat door. So they can just chill outside, but enclosed. It's a patio. It's a fairly new term. It's Wikipedia is just three scant sentences, but I did a little digging and like all quality trends and lifestyle movements, it may have originated in Portland. So the Portland Audubon Society does an annual patio tour. So you have until September, Portland folks to gear up for the next one.

Okay. Aside from a hip indoor outdoor living space, what else can protect birds and other backyard critters? There are some products on the market that are supposed to reduce cats ability to predate on birds. So there's like these little ruffled collars that if you look on the websites, the cats all look so pissed. Like, I can't believe you fucking put this thing on me.

Like that cat might leave a bird on your pillow if they can still catch the bird. Yeah. So there are some, some strategies that people who insist on letting their cats go outside could try to reduce the amount that their cats kill. You know, there's been some research suggesting that the birds that are killed by cats are typically weaker. And, you know, I'd say the models that suggest that cats are killing like 10 billion birds a year.

It's, it's hard to know like really what's going on and how much of that is, is cats. And I'm not trying to say that cats do not want to kill birds, but they're typically harder for cats to catch than mice. So, um, you know, cats, some cats are generalists. Like they'll kill anything that moves, but a lot of cats are specialists. So they have a preferred prey. And as long as that prey is available, they'll, they'll hunt that. So if they prefer lizards, they will hunt lizards as long as lizards are available.

Um, so, yeah, what I would say, it's big picture. It's complicated. I don't think that cats should get all of the blame. And, um, cat apologist. Yeah. And I also, you know, agree that we should make as many efforts to keep as many cats indoors as possible. Yeah.

Keep kitties inside. Yeah. And certainly like cats will still hunt even if they're fed typically, but they'll maybe be less quick to hunt and kill. So, um, so that's another argument for managing feral colonies instead of just letting them propagate and or trying to exterminate them, which is usually not an effective strategy. Right.

And that's also very sad. And it's sad. Um, a big question I got from so many people, Ashley Burgamy, um, or Expisa, Ben Holland, Chelsea, Shakedard, Anna Thompson, Micah Eckert, um, all want to know, well, cats really just eat their owner if they die alone in their apartment. I think most of us will eat someone if we're alone in an apartment with them and they die and we don't have anything else to eat. Yeah.

So, um, yes, actually when I worked at the shelter, we did have a kitty who came in who, um, her owner had died and she'd apparently nibble on the nose. Oh, no. Nose the nose. As far as we were told, um, by animal control. Um, so, you know, it happens, you're starving, don our party. I don't know what to say, like it's, um, your dog will do it too. So, really?

Oh, I mean, come on. Okay. So you're pretty much just, you are sashimi for whatever animal lives in your home. If you are, if they're stuck without food and you die, you are going to become food. We are meat. Okay. So yeah, your cat's going to eat your dead body.

Absolutely. But what do you care? You're dead. You've eaten them anyway. Yeah. Do you want them to die too? I mean, they're just trying to stay alive until I can get another home. I know.

Look at it this way. You're feeding the cat, even if you're not able to feed the cat. And it's like, you know, environmentally friendly. Yeah. What else are you going to do with your body? Hey, entrepreneurs, consider a niche burial service that involves having one's body dehydrated and made into pellets. Okay.

So I did look this up. Boy, oh boy. Whew. There's a lot of dark stories from paramedics available on the internet. If you want to scar your brain, but essentially a cat will start eating you the same day, usually going for the nose, lips and eyes first. A dog may or may not eat you, but they definitely do eat their owners. So many confirmed cases.

Apparently German shepherds are way more likely to just tuck in a bib and dive right in while you're still warm. And there have been reports of dogs who ate their dead owners down to the skeletons, even one stashing a bone under a pillow on the couch just to enjoy later. So yes, dogs will certainly eat off your nose, despite your faith. I really love that so many people are converging on the same question. I know. It's kind of fascinating.

So many people. The last two questions, because I have enough questions to sit here with you for literally like all day, but I understand that you do have a life. So last two questions I always ask, what is the worst thing about your job or the thing that you secretly hate about cats? I don't think there's anything I hate about cats. Come on. Oh, vomiting.

No, vomiting. Yeah. Yeah. Any way to prevent hairball vomiting? This was also a question from patron Sandra Kirby. Brush your cat. OK. Yeah.

Yeah. But, you know, one thing we know is that vomiting cats is actually not normal. I think people have really normalized vomiting, but we believe that it's, you know, more likely a medical or stress related issue. So, but as far as my job, you know, I think one thing when I started working with cats, people be like, oh, my God, you have the best job. You're just like petting kittens all day. Oh, my God.

And, you know, and it's true. I do get, you know, I do get to pet a lot of kittens. And certainly when I worked in the shelter, I pet a lot of kittens and cats. But it's really about dealing with people like so much of my work is even now I'm like dealing with research participants and, you know, I need something from them. I need them to collect data for me in an accurate way and I need their help. And when I'm dealing with clients who are having behavior problems with their cats, I'm not dealing with their cats.

I'm trying to get them to change typically their behavior in order to change their cat's behavior. And so probably the most challenging aspect is often the human element because behavior change is hard and, you know, trying to get someone to scoop the litter box every day when they've been scooping it once a week all over their life is not easy or getting them to change their habits when their cat is waking them up at four in the morning and telling them you have to ignore your cat until he stops and it might take a couple of weeks.

A lot of people break down if had people cry, you know, it's like and certainly I think, you know, it's easy to make light of when people are having behavior problems with their cats, but I've definitely experienced, for example, like people who basically got divorced over their pet or, you know, like stop sleeping in the same bed because they have two cats that hate each other and they don't want either cat to sleep alone. So they're sleeping separately with, you know, their two cats or people who are afraid they're going to have to put their cat to sleep because they can't live

with the behavior problem, whether it's, you know, their cat has ruined their house and they can't have people come over anymore because our house smells like pee or, you know, their cat is aggressive to strangers and so they don't feel comfortable having people over. I definitely think there are so many joys and benefits of having pets, but for people who are experiencing problems, there can be a lot of guilt and shame and they feel like they're a bad pet parent when it's not necessarily them, you know, and so it can be really hard to deal with that side where people are

going through a lot of pain. And by the time people reach out for help, they're kind of at their wits end. And so sometimes you're just the last stop on their way to the shelter. Like I've literally had people call like, I'm driving to the shelter. If you don't call me right back and fix this problem, the cat's going. Oh my God. Basically going to be getting rid of. So and so that can be a lot of pressure.

And so that is probably the hardest part of this kind of work is when you're seeing the complexity of the human-animal relationship. Sometimes they need someone who's a human psychiatrist. Not a cat behaviorist. So the hardest thing about cats is people. Exactly. Probably. What's the best thing about cats?

Wow. Especially if you wanted to say anything to any cat haters out there. I mean, they're fucking cute. But I've never met a cat. I didn't think it was cute. Um, I mean, I like the mystery personally that you they're not as maybe blatant as to like, you know, like a dog who's like, I love you. You know, cats have got to work for it a little bit.

And I definitely appreciate that. And, um, and I like that they still have that little bit of wildness. You know, we're still asking, are they domesticated or not? We can't even tell, right? Because they're a little bit wild, um, but they're also tame enough that they're like, you know, curled up in your lap and purring, which is like, I think purring is magic. It's just a very soothing and like wonderful little trick they have.

Do they do that in the wild? Same with meowing or do they just really do that to communicate with us? Well, they'll purr. So moms and kittens will purr when they're nursing. So, you know, we, we think typically positive situations where there's some love going on and they'll also purr, of course, when they're distressed. So it's, it's not just a positive. It might have self self soothing kind of aspects to it.

So you will see cats in pain who are dying that will, will purr as well. But again, look at the context. If your cat's not dying and they're purring, they're probably happy. Right. Right. They've got a broken leg and they're purring. No, do they meow just to communicate with us? Yeah.

So meowing is something that they primarily do with humans. So the communication they do with other cats is typically either more antagonistic, like yowling, growling, hissing, shrieking, or smaller, shorter, like chirping would be like a positive sound that cats would would do to each other. But meowing seems to be something they reserve for primarily for humans. So cats, not dicks. Just a little afraid. And also they know how to play us.

And that's why we love them. And now where can people find you? I have a blog, catsandsquirrels.com. And so I try to report on there about primarily about science related to cats and squirrels because they're my two favorite species. And I'm on Twitter at Michael underscore Maria. So that's on my KEL underscore M-A-R-I-A. My business website is feline lines.com.

So if someone needed some consulting, they could. They could go to feline lines. OK, I have a feeling you're going to have a lot of cat questions. Thank you so much for. You're welcome. Thanks for having me. This is super fun. Oh my God, I could seriously ask you cat questions all day.

Thank you. So find Dr. Michael Delgado, follow her, check out feline minds dot com. And this week's allergies donation goes to kitten central of Placer County dot org, in case you want to check out what they do. So allergies is at allergies on Twitter and Instagram. I'm Ali Ward, one L on both. And to support the show via Patreon, head to patreon.com slash allergies.

You can ask the allergies questions. You'll be supporting a different charitable cause every week, helping me pay people what they deserve to work on the show. And maybe I'll call you and talk about a bra. You can also get allergies, merch at allergies, merch dot com. Black T-shirts, y'all, they're a veils. So thank you, Shannon Feltas and Bonnie Dutch for managing that. Thank you to Aaron Talbert and Hannah Lippo for adminning the allergies Facebook

group. The theme song was written and performed by Nick Thorburn of the band islands. And thank you to proud cat dad and host of the cat themed show, The Percast, Steven Ray Morris. Check that out for cutting this whole episode together. This one's for you, pal. Now, if you stick around until the end of the show, you know, I tell you a secret. And this week you'll get two. Number one, I am legit so disturbed by reading so many stories from paramedics

about devoured bodies. Wish I didn't do that. Ew. Two, I went to get something out of my pantry this evening and I found a bag of baby carrots in there. I guess I tossed them into the pantry and not the fridge just hours ago. I'll continue to eat them. Also, I feel bad because just last week, guest Dr.

Julie Lesnick was specifically like, don't buy plastic bags of baby carrots. Just buy carrots and cut them. And now I feel like this is an omen and a reminder and I should never do it again. Anyway, carrots don't belong in the pantry. Okay, for a bite.