Ologies with Alie Ward - Forensic Ecology (NATURE DETECTIVE) with Tiara Moore

Episode Date: November 30, 2021

Yep -- it’s detective work! But instead of crime scenes, environmental scientist, marine biologist and Forensic Ecologist Dr. Tiara Moore travels the world to sample the sea and the soil looking for the ghosts of larvae past, whispers of frog spit, fungal traces in loamy soil, and the unseen forces that lead to algal blooms and toxic tides. She also is the CEO of #BlackInMarineScience week, which is NOW: Nov. 28-Dec. 04! Follow that hashtag and see the events link below and buckle your life jacket to a spirited chat about finding your calling on tropical seas, labwork, forest fungus, Missy Elliot, sedimentary soil science, straight up racism, the state of allyship, marine science careers, and whether or not she may have found evidence of Bigfoot. I mean. For more on #BlackinMarineScience (BiMS)BiMS 2021 EVENT SCHEDULE!Follow Dr. Tiara Moore on Twitter and InstagramDonations went to BiMS and BWEEMSDr. Moore’s website: TiaraMoore.comDr. Moore works with The Nature Conservancy!More episode linksSponsors of OlogiesTranscripts & bleeped episodesBecome a patron of Ologies for as little as a buck a monthOlogiesMerch.com has hats, shirts, totes, moreFollow @ologies on Twitter and InstagramFollow @alieward on Twitter and InstagramSound editing by Jarrett Sleeper of MindJam Media & Steven Ray MorrisTranscripts by Emily White of The WordaryWebsite by Kelly R. Dwyer

Oh, hey, it's that spoon that doesn't match any of your other spoons, and you have no idea how it got there. Or if any of your spoons are somewhere in a stranger's drawer. Halliward. And we're here the week after Thanksgiving. It's the start of Hanukkah. It's a month before New Year's. So many holidays in between, but this week, this week is a special one. It's Black and Marine Science Week, or BIMS Week. Do you like panels of experts talking about diving and videos of fish and pictures of cool sharks and real talk Wednesdays? Yes, you do. So Hopperborn, you're going to dig this. Okay, so this week we are talking with the CEO of Black and Marine Science about her work in forensic ecology.

Ooh, forensic ecology. So, forensics is Latin for court or in public, and ecology means the study of where we live. And when I put up the call for questions for this one, I knew you dear patrons would see forensic ecology and then maybe be puzzled and ask about crime scenes. So I made sure to include this guest's long and prestigious bio, plus her Twitter and links to her published papers just so y'all could get a primer on her work using environmental DNA analysis to figure out more about ecology. I still got a bunch of crime scene questions, including my favorite one from my friend, Skella, who asked about carnivores eating evidence. But everyone, just let's just calm down. We're talking about a whole different situation. We're going to get to it.

Also patrons, thank you for sending in your questions. You too can join for as little as a dollar a month and leave your questions about butts and DNA forologists. And for zero dollars, you can also help an internet dad out and just tell friends about the show. You can tweet, you can grab, you can tick, talk, rate, subscribe, leave a review because you know I read them all. So I can just read one that you just left, such as this one from Cooking in College, who called this podcast Hot Moist Brain Food and said, it's an all you can eat smorgasbord of hot, moist brain food. And yes, I am a brain food connoisseur, they say. Lick it up, enjoy.

So thisologist, I have followed on Twitter for years. I loved black and marine science last year and I've wanted to have her on to talk for so long. She got her undergrad degree in biology from Winthrop University, her master's in biology with a concentration in environmental science from Hampton University and a PhD in biology from UCLA. And as we chatted a few weeks ago, she was working on her postdoc at the University of Washington. And in her spare time, she founded awoke space, which is a consulting company focused on changing the cultural climate for women of color in the workplace, as well as black and marine science. Oh, and alongside Amanda Wise, she co-hosts the podcast We Danglin, which is described as

two country black girls discuss life, foolery, science, and social media. And I'm sorry that I'm still talking, but I just wanted to give you the background because I think you should know who you're about to fall in love with. As we chat about finding your calling in the open sea, lab work, forest fungus, Missy Elliott, sedimentary soil science, straight up racism, the state of allyship, marine science careers, and whether or not she may have found evidence for Bigfoot. All in this episode with black and marine scientist, CEO, biologist, environmental researcher, marine scientist, and forensic ecologist Dr. Tiara Moore.

Well, hello, Doc. Hey, girl, what's up? First thing, can you say your first and last name and your pronouns for me? Yes, I'm Dr. Tiara Moore, and I use she, her, pronouns. Dr. Moore. Do you have people call you Dr. Moore a lot? No. No?

Actually, so only when they get disrespectful and they pronounce my name wrong. So my name is Tiara, but a lot of people say Tiara, and I correct them, and then they'll still say Tiara. And so I'm like, well, you know, you can just call me Dr. Moore. Yeah. We can just, we can just cut all of that out. That's the best. You're like, is that easier to pronounce for you, Dr. Moore?

Right. That's amazing. So can you tell me a little bit about what you studied when you were going to the lab when you were going through undergrad and graduate? If you kind of got to take any turns along the way, or what led you to doing the career that you do now? Oh, wow. Okay.

That's a great question. Um, so undergrad, I actually went to undergrad pre-med. Um, I thought I wanted to be a pediatrician, and then I realized, sorry, y'all, but I didn't like kids like that, so it wasn't going to work out. No, this is probably not going to work out for me. I'll pass. But I was already in the biology major, taking all these courses. I'm like, aw, dang, like I don't want to have wasted this time.

So I started taking other classes or courses in biology, and there was this one class called Tropical Ecology that I signed up for, and I'll be honest, I only signed up for it because they were going to Costa Rica for spring break. So I was like, ooh, free trip. Yes. That's amazing. Um, but then I got there, and we were like on a boat, and we were collecting water samples, and we were doing these experiments, and senior scientists were there instructing us.

And I'm like, hey, are y'all getting paid? Like, is this a job? Let me know. And that's how I really found out about marine science. And so I came back from that experience, completely changed wanting to go into this, to this path. Um, and so, yeah, I looked for graduate schools that had marine science programs, because I wanted to do a master's program.

And I remember writing in my personal statement, like hey, I took this one marine science class, but please accept me. This is what I want to do. Um, I'm a good student. And so, yeah, they accepted me, and yeah, it's Hampton University, which is an HBCU, or a historically black college university. And it was a great experience. And side note, Hampton University is in Hampton, Virginia, and not only does it boast alumni,

including Booker T. Washington, and former Surgeon General Sylvia Trent-Adams, Dr. T. Thieramore, and Wanda Sykes. But you may have just seen their marching band in the Thanksgiving Day parade. So hail, hail to the mighty Hampton Pirates. And then I did research there in the Chesapeake Bay, um, in water quality, trying to understand how humans impact water quality there. They have these huge, like a lot of pollution of nutrients in their water bodies there. And so that can lead to these blooms, algal blooms, or phytoplankton blooms.

Um, and then those sit on top of the water and consume, like, all the oxygen that's there, and that could be harmful for fish. So you can imagine if you have these organisms on the top using up all the oxygen, then the organisms below won't have any oxygen for themselves. Yeah. So, yeah, that was my master's research. And then I moved across the country to California and did research in the estuaries there in Southern California. So where the salt water meets the freshwater.

And again, was trying to understand human impacts in these areas with nutrient pollution and how that changed the water quality there. So to get into the microscopic details of forensic ecology, Dr. Moore has a long list of published papers and talks and articles like A Biodiversity Composition Map of California Derived from Environmental DNA Meta-Bar Coding and Earth Observation. Or the Journal of Water Resources and Ocean Science paper titled Sedimentary Oxygen Demand and Orthophosphate Release Sustaining Neutrophication in a Tributary of the Chesapeake Bay. So a utrophication, it sounds kind of like a good thing,

but it actually means extra nutrients in water sources that can wonkify the ecology. So that paper was all about the extra phosphorus and nitrogen leading to an overgrowth of phytoplankton which then die off, settle to the bottom and end up releasing orthophosphate. Which is something used to mineralize the inside of lead pipes to protect from corrosion. Oh, and her PhD thesis was all about algal blooms and estuaries. And an estuary is just like a beautiful brackish armpit or fresh water meets the ocean. So as a marine scientist, Dr. Moore studied all kinds of watery badness goodness. And so I was actually giving a talk about that research I had done and someone came up to me

and was like, oh, this is really interesting. Do you think you could do a similar project of trying to, you know, understand biodiversity or the species presence in these ecosystems in a forest? And so I was thinking about it. Yeah, I was like, oh, yeah, sure. Sounds cool. Like, yeah, I was thinking about the techniques and then they asked me the next question. Like, whoa, well, could you do it?

And I was like, what? I'm a marine scientist. What do you mean? I don't work in the forest. But it long story, well, clearly long story short, because that's what I'm doing now. I ended up taking on that, that job, that position. And that is my current project. So now where are you based at where you do forest work?

So my base is in Seattle, Washington, but the forest is in, I guess, Nassau or Long Beach, Washington. So about three hours or so from Seattle. And now can you go back a little bit and tell me like when you are talking about nutrient pollution, is that when a certain species gets overfed in waters? What causes that? Yes. So nutrient pollution predominantly comes from human impact.

So things like deforestation, we're removing, you know, trees out of the forest. That's causing bringing up nutrients out of the sediment. But then also agricultural runoff. So we have a huge, huge agricultural practice is supposed to have so many people that we have to feed. They put a lot of fertilizers on crops that are filled with nutrients. So soon as it rains, those nutrients are washed into the waterways. And so basically nutrients feed these organisms that I mentioned, the phytoplankton or these macro algae. And so imagine you're at a buffet, right?

You have a whole lot of food to eat. So you just keep eating. You just keep eating and you're eating and you're growing and you're growing. And now all of a sudden you're taking up the whole water column. It's like, oh snap, what happened? So that's, that's what it happens. So because of these, our practices here, you know, what we're doing and that stuff gets into the ocean. And, you know, they do what you expect anything to do has been given a whole bunch of food.

They eat it. And then that causes the adverse impacts to the other organisms in the ocean or in that ecosystem. Has that been going on for different reasons before humans started becoming industrialized? Or does that just happen in nature? Or is that something that really started when we started changing the ecosystem so much? Oh yes, it's us. It's us. Come on now.

So where, so these, these organisms are definitely supposed to be inland. Like phytoplankton are there, photosynthesis is real, nutrients and sunlight, that's what they need. So you imagine if you give them a whole bunch of nutrients, they're going to continue to do the job that they're there to do. So it's supposed to be this regulated amount that is in these ecosystems, but we're over feeding, over inputting into these, into these areas. So it definitely started with us and us just doing a lot. There's like different policies and things of like waste dumping. They started with that, like the total maximum daily load that people can put into, to the water, but it's not as regulated for things like agriculture. Because again, how can you regulate water runoff?

But you could if we said, hey, we shouldn't be putting all these fertilizers on these crops to begin with. And what kind of tools does a forensic ecologist, which by the way, it's pretty coolology. That's pretty rad. What kind of tools do you need to do? Are you looking at Baywater or pond water through microscopes? Is it all DNA stuff? What's happening? Yes.

So it's all DNA stuff. And this is so funny that title. Actually, I think it was an article, a news reporter, like interviewing me about this stuff. And it's like, oh, this is exactly what this is. And I'd like to make the relationship between every crime show that you watch. You know, there's a criminal who will do something. They'll touch the door knob as they're walking out and then the detectives come in and like, oh, here's a fingerprint. We have their DNA.

We now know who is there. And so that's basically doing what I'm doing in the ecosystem. And you can do this in a variety of different samples. It really just depends on what you're interested in, but you can use water. You can use sediment, soil, air. And so there's a lot of different studies that are utilizing these different environmental samples. And this is because as we're moving through the environment, as humans are sloughing around or organisms, species, anything, as we're moving around, we're shedding genetic information.

We're shedding skin, hair, feces, mucus, pollen, leaves, all of that has genetic information. And as soon as it is dropped into an environmental sample, like water or soil, we can now collect that sample, extract the DNA and tell you information about that, those species, about diversity in that ecosystem. Do you ever find DNA that you're like, what is this doing here? So, yes. So, yes, but here's the thing. Okay. And I want to.

Yes, but so environmental DNA, the beauty of environmental DNA is that imagine like so biodiversity studies are trying to understand species. You would need someone who understood all the species. And that's generally what you do. You have like a taxonomist who knows all these species or they go out and do surveys or they're put out camera traps. But the beauty of this EDNA is that you can collect this soil and or collect the water sample and then extract the DNA, do a series of lab work steps and then upload the data to a database and then you have access to the information. Like now here's a whole species list and me not being a taxonomist or knowing all these species by name. I now see, oh, wow, this is all that's there.

I know what you're thinking. You're wondering if EDNA is some kind of new electron scanning DNA machine, but I'm here just to bust in and whisper. Nope. It just means environmental DNA. And technically it's been around for as long as the Robocop movie franchise 1987 when marine geologists started looking at bacterial colonies and ocean sediments. But of course DNA sequencing has gotten cheaper and faster and much more widespread in the last 35 years. Aren't you relieved that it's not something more complicated? Kind of like the time I was in a fancy restaurant and saw a meal on the menu just to learn that it was French for honey.

Like what? Okay. So environmental DNA is everywhere and forensic ecologists like Dr. Moore can learn a lot about an environment based on what's there and in what numbers. There are some things that I'm like, oh, wow, what is this doing there? But then I have to then go and do more research to figure out what it is and what the organism is and where it does belong. So I'm giving a huge data set, but I'm not necessarily like the taxonomists who assign them. When you're starting a project like that, do you usually have an overarching question you have to answer? Like how much of a certain thing is in the soil or like, how do you even approach something?

Because there's going to be so much DNA in such a wide field. How do you start? Exactly. You start at the beginning. But honestly, so it really depends. It does depend on your question. You know, science, well, we hope science is question based. You have a question you want to figure it out.

And so for me specifically, and I can talk a little bit about other DNA studies, but it's more for my project is presence absence. Can we understand what's there in this ecosystem? Can we understand what's going on in this environment? So really, we're just almost saying, hey, what can we find? We're not asking a particular question. But for some studies, they do, they are looking for a particular organism or species trying to see if it's there in that ecosystem. And then you would handle that by your lab work. And so I kind of, you know, just lump the series of lab steps into one thing.

But that's where you really go into depth with your, with your actual question. So if I'm saying, hey, I just want to know presence absence. Okay, then that lets me know I will, in my lab, when I tag the DNA, so you, you start with soil, but then you extract the DNA. So it turns into a liquid. And then you tag it with these primers or coding areas that says, hey, we're looking for these different organisms. And so you can use generic or universal primers that says, hey, we're looking for everything. Or you can say, hey, I want to know about this exact fish. This is the only fish I care about.

I want to know. And so you could make a primer that targets that particular fish. And so you could tag your DNA, your samples with that. So it really does depend on what your question is and what your tools are that you then use in the lab. So those primers, and you can call them oligonucleotides for short, are single strands of DNA or RNA, maybe a dozen or two nucleotides long, and figuring out which genes to use in those primers can be tricky. So it's better to have C and G base pairs on the ends of the snippet because their bonds are stronger, but you have to make sure that it doesn't bind to itself.

You don't just get to ask a machine like, hey, what's in there? Machines are great, but your brain is one of the machines. And it has to figure out exactly what to tell the other machines to look for via primers. Has it changed a lot since when you started your PhD to now? Has technology made it a lot easier to do the work? Oh, yes. I would definitely say so. I mean, they have all types of things now.

So if you're in the lab, a wet lab, there's a lot of pipetting or moving liquids from one little vial to the next. And so usually you would be able to do like one at a time. And then, you know, I would say when I was in maybe masters, they had one in multi-channel pipettes. And so you could do eight samples at a time. Now they have robots. You don't even have to touch a pipette and you can just set it up off fancy and get all your samples. My lab didn't have that personally, but I'm just saying it's available. And then they also have really good like kits that are really easy to follow that gets the sample that you collect easily be able to extract the DNA from it.

Because as you can imagine, you know, if you're collecting soil or water, how do you get to that DNA? So there's a series of steps where you have to wash the samples really good, release that DNA and then capture it. And so there's a kit that could literally walk you through all that steps now in like two hours. And that's pretty, pretty cool. I have heard of these easy DNA kits, literally called easy DNA. And they explain their effortless product as something that consolidates DNA deniturization and bisulfate conversion processes into one step leading to a much faster bisulfate conversion. And that recovered bisulfate converted DNA is ideal for PCR amplification for downstream analyses, including endonuclease digestion, sequencing, microarrays, etc. I mean, clearly, I downloaded the eight page PDF of the kits instructions to see exactly how much I could digest.

And it had helpful nuggets such as soft tissue, such as brain does not require the use of a homogenizer. A pipette can be used to homogenize. Those are some of the very literal granular details of forensic ecology. But let's look at the bigger picture, shall we? When it comes to things that are environmental and you're seeing like climate summits and headlines. Is there something that as a forensic ecologist, you're like, why aren't we looking at this or this is such a big deal? Oh my goodness. I would say, oh man, my favorite TED talk is talking about a climate change solution right up under our feet.

It's soil. See, a six foot or so of soil, loose soil material that covers the earth's surface, represents the difference between life and lifeness in the earth system. So that talk with UC Merced biogeochemist Dr. Asmoret Asifah Berhe will be linked on my site in the show notes. And she's talking about in this whole TED talk about dirt and soil and how it being really important because there is a whole, you know, microbiome, of organisms that is keeping the soil healthy, the soil intact. And what we know is that there is so much carbon storage in the soil. And so when you think about climate change, we know largely it's because of excess carbon products like carbon dioxide or methane that's in the atmosphere. And so you hear everybody talking about plant trees, plant trees. So that will help to take up that carbon and okay, that's fine.

The trees do take up the carbon that's causing climate change. But what are these trees growing in the soil? And so healthy soil will lead to healthy conditions for trees. And then also we'll be able to store more carbon as well. How's your gardening game? Are you like really good at gardening? Are you like, I'm too busy gardening? Did you just ask me if I had a hobby?

I can't even stop laughing. I know. Not even time for crocheting. Yeah. Do friends come to you with like, what did I do wrong with this houseplant? And you're like, I can't, I can't help you. They all know better. Because my friends actually more see me as a lab scientist.

You know, they don't, they'll see my photos of me out in the field, but they're like, oh, tears in the lab. They really think I'm like Bill Nye. That's what they think. So there you go. And now you identify as a marine scientist, even though you might be working on soil and forest right now. Would you say that your heart is in marine science or how do you feel?

My heart, my soul, my yes. It is definitely in marine science. I mean, I still have that same excitement about from that trip in Costa Rica. And then I've also had the opportunities to travel and scuba dive and do some really awesome projects. I think this was an intriguing opportunity for me, but I know that my next position and everything that I'm going to do will be back in marine science.

Oh, and I want to know a little bit about black and marine science. That's coming up on the 28th, right? Oh, yes. So black and marine science week two. This is our second week of outreach. And so, yeah, I'm very excited about that. It's going to be a whole week, November 28th through December 4th. That's now.

And we're going to have different panels and workshops, keynote speakers, all talking about different experiences being black and marine science, talking about our research, talking about diving activities, just talking about so many different things. And the whole goal is to really, first of all, dispel the myth that black marine scientists don't exist. You just don't even know how many times I've introduced myself as a marine scientist and people will say, oh, you can swim.

I'm like, really? Oh, my God. Like, this is what we're doing. Oh, my God. So, yeah, it's a little bit rough. And that side note is more than just offhand blatant racism. It's also something that has deep roots in Jim Crow era American segregation when people of color were denied access to swimming pools.

Even in 1969, Mr. Rogers wanted to educate people about this and made an episode soaking his feet in a small kiddie pool with actor Francois Clemens who played the role of officer Clemens on the show just to call attention to the fact that this was still happening. In the 2021 book, The Sum of Us, What Racism Costs Everyone and How We Can Prosper Together by author and Yale law graduate Heather McGee, she details that into the 1970s, quote,

draining public swimming pools to avoid integration received the official blessing of the U.S. Supreme Court in 1971. The city council in Jackson, Mississippi had responded to desegregation demands by closing four public pools and leasing the fifth, the YMCA, which operated it for whites only. Black citizens sued, but the Supreme Court in Palmer versus Thompson held that a city could choose not to provide a public facility rather than maintain an integrated one.

So the result of segregation and racism has had generational effects and black people in America suffer higher rates of drowning, are excluded from some career paths and experience a lot of offhand and targeted prejudice that white folks do not. I'm still passionate. I didn't want that to make me want to leave. And so black marine science is really the manifestation of us saying, hey, we're here, we're doing awesome research, and we want to get more black folks in the field.

And so, yeah, that'll be a whole week of outreach. And you founded that, which is one reason why you don't have any room for hobbies. Yes, I'm the founder and CEO of Black and Marine Science. How was that process when you were deciding, I want to do this. I want more visibility. I want people who are looking for more mentors and colleagues to come together too. When did you decide to just, okay, I'm just going to go for this? Okay, are we doing the real raw or are we doing the right?

Okay. I mean, like I mentioned, I mean, me as a black woman marine scientist, especially at the PhD level, it's just not common. And so I was working in a space where I was the only black person in the lab. It was the only black person with a PhD that these folks had ever worked with. So it was, it was like this weird experience. And there was just a lot of racial, racially charged experiences that I dealt with. And it really had me thinking about walking away from, from the whole situation.

You know, just why, but hey, you know, I can make TikTok videos. I can work it. She feel like I could do something different because this is not what I signed up for. You know, I think I had experienced stuff going through school. And I'm like, oh, it's because I'm a student or oh, you know, I haven't earned my place at this table yet. But once I, you know, earned or how they say, it was just like, oh, wow, I'm still getting treated like I don't belong here. Oh snap. Like wow, this is, this is disappointing. And so yeah, I just had to make a decision of, hey, I know I'm not the only black marine scientist because I've met folks here or there, but there has to be, be more of us.

And so yeah, Black and Marine Science Week came around where 2020 was happening, where there was so much racial discourse and so many things going on. And there was other, you know, science organizations that were having these weeks of outreach that actually started with Black Birders Week. And since they started that movement, there have been a rise of so many fields like Black and Neuro and Black and Chem, Black and Natural History Museums, and of course Black and Marine Science. And so yeah, I was there and I was like, wow, where are the other black marine scientists? And I just tweeted that out and there was such a great response like, oh wow, what? I've been here by myself. I've been here by myself. Let's, let's meet up.

And so we created this week and it went really well and we raised a good amount of money. And that's when I really saw the needs of the community. They were all these folks in these labs, in these workplaces by themselves, and now we have found each other. And so that's when I decided to turn Black and Marine Science into an actual nonprofit that we can build and raise funds to actually support and do outreach and really enrich the field. So it's definitely, it was a risk for sure and it's been a lot of work, but it's been so, so impactful and it's just been worth every second, every hour that I've spent on it for sure. I've read the hashtags too with Black and the Ivory and just how many people who are black in academia

are just pushed to want to leave, that it's just not worth their sanity to stay in an environment where they might feel undermined or there are aggressions or exclusions. Do you have any advice for anyone who might feel alone in that or anything that has helped you stick it out or has helped the environment at all? Oh, yes. So I would say, first of all, is that you aren't alone. You know, if you can hear my voice, know that I've definitely experienced this with you. I think it can feel so isolating when you're in the moment that it is gut-wrenching. You know, it's heartbreaking. You're like, wow, I've done all this work. I've made it to these spaces.

I think what can be equally as disappointing for a lot of people of color when they get in these experiences is that they're probably a part of some diversity initiative or recruitment effort that specifically brought them to this place. And now they're being treated as if they were specifically bought to this place. So I think that's what makes it even worse because you're like, oh, wow, this is going to be great. And then you get there and it's like, oh, snap. Did you know you hired me? Hey, did you tell the rest of the group? I think for me, I was surprised. I'm like, oh, there's no way this is happening to other people. But then I started talking to other people and I was like, oh, oh. And I think it's because other people weren't talking about it. That's why I was blindsided.

So now I'm screaming from the roofs. Hey, you need to know what's going to be up. And so you can have that community because I think if I would have known going in, I would have made sure better that I had a better support system around me and maybe not even accepted the position at all, to be honest. So I think it's being true to yourself and understanding what the conditions are that you're going in and asking a lot of questions. I know, especially as a black woman, you're going to be like, oh, we're not going to ask any questions. We don't want to be seen as aggressive. We don't want to cause any problems. So we'll just chill. But no, no, you have to ask questions and advocate for yourself. And I think that's been the most impactful change I've seen.

Me just saying, hey, that was racism or hey, that was a microaggression or hey, you know, and just calling it out. But that can be time consuming. But I'm hoping that if I'm speaking up, then maybe another person won't have to. They'll change their behavior. Have you seen any changes with any initiatives in the past year? So has any allyship actually been paying off or have you felt like it's like it's a lot of talk? Sorry, you don't have to answer that too if you don't want to. No, I think there has been some really good allies that have stepped up for sure. But for the most part, there has been a lot of performances.

There have been a lot of folks who put up diversity statements and didn't do anything. But then there has been folks who said they were going to do different. And I can actually call out, because I feel like I should, our funder, Black and Marine Science, received a grant of support from the David and Lucille Packard Foundation. And they really made a statement of wanting to diversify their funders. Whereas other organizations, you know, they'll say, oh, we might amplify your content or we might, you know, can you come speak on a panel for us, but they're not truly giving the support that's needed. And then even inside their own organizations, a lot of folks of color don't feel like anything's have changed.

I would say, holy, it doesn't seem like a lot, but also I think it's just slow. Maybe I'll say that. I think for me, since I was able to build Black and Marine Science to what it is now in less than a year, I'm confused that people are just now getting diversity committees established in that same time. But for them, that's still movement, that's growth. So it's like, oh, do you discount it? They got a committee now, so okay. So I think that's where we are now.

It's a lot of baby steps, if that makes sense. Which is very generous of her to say, but there's a lot of work, folks. Nobody fixed racism in 2020. And something like Black and Marine Science is wonderful because you can follow so many people you might not have known before and learned great science and also the realities of being historically excluded, if that hasn't been your experience. And if you're in a historically excluded minority, you can find your hashtags from Asian and Pacific Islanders in ecology, to Latinx in STEM, to native in STEM, to LGBTQ and disabled in STEM folks. There's even a neurodivergent in STEM and an ADHD in STEM.

And Dr. Moore is really open about how ADHD has factored into her life, too. So everyone, your people are out there and they are down to talk about the same things that you have been through. And Dr. Moore says that she feels so much better being connected to these groups. But I think we all still would rather, you know, want to support our actual jobs. Because this is me, you know, having a job and then having to run a whole other organization to be able to get some comfort when it shouldn't necessarily be like that. Yeah, of course not. Any panels in particular that you're really excited about? Is there anyone that you got on board this year that you're really stoked about?

So I'm excited to announce we'll have a hashtag BIMS Reads event every day. And so we're going to be highlighting Black Marine Science authors and so different authors who are Black Marine scientists and who have written a book. And so, of course, I'm excited to say that we have Dr. Ayanna Lisbeth Johnson coming to read from All We Can Save. But we also have some other awesome authors as well. A really awesome keynote speaker we have is Queen Quet. And she is over the Gully-Gucci Nation in South Carolina. So I'm very excited to hear her talk about that community and her outreach in that community.

And then we're ending the week. We have a Diving While Black panel. And so that's going to be talking about all of our experiences as scuba divers. So, yeah, we have a lot of stuff. Oh, and on Thursdays, all dedicated is called The Youth Thursday. So it's all about youth outreach. I loved it last year. And I always love the first day, like Sunday, you've got roll call. Yes.

If you want to get the best timeline full of awesome marine science facts, like show up to roll call and just follow, follow, follow, follow, follow. Yes, the BIMS roll call is very, that was honestly, I was crying probably every 30 minutes last year. I was like, where are these people coming from? Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh, I'm so happy. I'm so happy. So yes, the BIMS roll call. And we're also doing another hashtag on that day.

It's called going to be hashtag black on the beach. And that's really trying to get every person, every black person involved in this roll call because we all have a connection to marine science, specifically to the ocean. Everybody loves ocean selfies. And so we're trying to have that hashtag as well to truly include our whole community. That hashtag is black on the beach. And all week there are virtual events and talks. There's BIMS dives into ocean justice, how to respond to trauma, trap yoga,

marine science career panel, diving while black panel, hashtags like BIMS week and black and marine science and BIMS roll call and commotion in the ocean and giving Tuesday and I am not my hair. And the capper is the December 4th BIMS ball, which is a virtual black tie event. So all of those events will be right at a link in the show notes because I do not expect you to write all that down. It's so great. I imagine that you must start planning next year, like the day after the week is over.

Yo, it's so true. I mean, it's turned into a huge thing, but now you're giving us way too much credit. We just started a couple of months ago. We're just a couple of months. I have questions from listeners. Can I ask you something? Let's do it. Let's do it.

And before we do, of course, let's toss some money at a worthy cause. And this week, of course, we'll be sending some to black and marine science, but also Dr. Moore asked if we could do two. And of course, so we're also sending some to black women in ecology founded by Dr. Nikki Trailer-Knolls, who was also tired of hearing that black women don't exist in the marine sciences. And BWEMS has over 200 members from undergrads to retired professors, and it was built to support innovative science, develop community, promote mentorship, and professional growth of black women in ecology, evolution, and marine science.

So more info is up at BWEMS.org. And those donations were made possible by sponsors of the show. All right. Back to the topic at hand, forensic ecology. Okay. Jackie wanted to know how do you determine how or where to sample an environment for EDNA? And Jackie says, I imagine in marine environments, everything is pretty evenly mixed for you, but how many samples do you need to get from the soil to get a good picture of what's going on?

How many samples is enough samples? There's never enough samples. I figured. You just have to, you just have to guess. And you just have to, I mean, you make a scientific, you know, decision. You figure out your area that you're going to. You look around and say, how many, you know, what types of samples do we need? And statistically, it's like three to five for each area that you're collected from.

But if you could imagine, if you're doing a whole forest, we would need a whole lot more samples. So I think in total, we collected about 400 and some samples. Do you have to store them like on ice at all or is it pretty stable? Yeah. So it depends on your sample. So you can use a stabilizing solution, but you do want to get them, you know, back to the lab as quickly as possible and to start the DNA extraction process. Are you just putting them in like vials and test tubes while you're out in the field?

Yes. Yes. So I have this really, you know, super high technique method of using a slurpee straw that you can get from Sony or like 7-Eleven. Because if you think about a slurpee straw, it has like the perfect little scoop on the end. But I have thought about this because you use plastic, but it's like sterile because I can just open it up and then just scoop it and then just throw it out and then just use another slurpee straw for each sample

and like not have to do any like, you know, pulling out alcohol, disinfecting and all this and that. So yeah. And then also on the way to the field site, you get to go to Sonic or 7-Eleven. You have to. Come on now. We order them. We order them. We order them.

I couldn't just go take 500 straws from Sony. You're like, what? I got it fries too. Come on. I can't take a huge handful of them on your way to the floor. These belong to me now. I literally thought that you went and picked them up on the way. It didn't even occur to me that you could order them.

Yes, you actually can order. I mean, you know, you can order anything now. That is true. That's true. And because I'm sure there are a few of you out there wondering, yes, doing science and keeping down contamination in a lab does have a plastic price tag. And a 2014 study found that science labs generate 5.5 million tons of plastic waste every year. But when you're actively trying to save the planet and you needed his lab equipment

and you dispose of it properly, you get a straw pass. Elliot Cooper had a question about your preferences. Elliot wants to know how much of your work is devoted to land versus water habitats and is one more appealing to you than the other? And I feel like we might know the answer. Yeah, it's the water for me. It's the water for me. So I mean, because I'm working on this project, all of my efforts are definitely focused on

that land project, but my heart is focused on the water project. But I'm actually in the midst of finishing this up. So yes, she is doing her terrestrial postdoc. But literally just a few hours ago, Dr. Moore announced that she has a new position as Black Marine Science Program Lead at the Nature Conservancy. So many party horn emojis about that. Kelly Schaver wants to know, do trees and other plants really have unique DNA that can be identified or is that just something made up for TV?

They do. They do. Yes, there is a diversity of different trees and plants that you can use, like a tree primer, like you can use EDNA to figure it to find that out. So yeah, you can be able to identify these different species using this technique. That's so good to know. I thought this was a great question. Dirty Dan.

Dirty Dan. Maybe this guy's really into soil too. Dirty Dan wants to know, is there a noticeably different fungal footprint in the soil of old growth forests? Yo, Dirty Dan, that's the whole purpose of my project right now. Dirty Dan. So that's what I would love to see. So I'm literally in the middle of doing the analysis.

So we did all the lab work, then COVID shut me down. And I got a little bit behind, but that is exactly the type of information that we would like to see in the forest. And that's why we have the different range of tree ages that we collected from. So we actually have samples that I collected that were in the old growth, but then also in the clear cut. Clear cut was mean there were completely no trees, but then also different ages of trees in between when the forest was clear cut

and where it got restored. So I think that would be understanding that signature of the fungal biodiversity in the old growth would really help us to understand our restoration efforts. So yeah, that's really a goal of the project, Dirty Dan. So thanks for calling it out. Nice. Alina Zekis wants to know, when looking for DNA to capture, is there anything that can mess it up real bad,

like a chemical that can get in there or a fungus? But in this case, you want to know about the fungus. Any bad contaminants? I mean, so DNA does degrade. And so I'm sure there probably could be something that could get into it that would cause problems. But that's the beauty of this environmental DNA method is that you can have a really small fragment of DNA and potentially still be able to identify it. So even if it is partially degraded or something has happened, it could potentially still be picked up.

So remember, as organisms move through water and soil, they're shedding little skin flakes and mucus and poop, whatever, it's casual. And then a cool scientist like Dr. Moore collects the samples, takes them back to the wet lab, NK the lab with all the jars and stuff, and extracts the DNA, figures out a primer sequence of a dozen or so RNA nucleotides called oligo nucleotides, amplifies that code, and then can identify who or what has been where. And those observations and IDs, even if they came from a teeny, teeny, tiny thread of frog spit, are starting to be called OTUs, operational taxonomic units.

So forensic ecology, it's like CSI, but instead of fictional sufferings, it's just a particle of a butterfly wing or a microscopic fungal cell wall or a shed larval skin. Somehow it's both creepier and cooler. We had a question from garden specialist who apparently does have time to garden and wants to know regarding the 2021 paper, flip it and reverse it, reasonable changes in designated controls can flip synergisms to antagonisms. Would love to know more about coming up with that title. How did such genius emerge?

That is hilarious. So you said that you really did send these folks my research gate and they really look like that. That is so funny. So that whole paper is talking about, like you said, like flipping, flipping the like control of a project. Like, so you know, you can have like, say if you have, you're doing an experiment and so something I put nutrients in one thing, and then something that doesn't have nutrients is the control. And so we were trying to think about what if we said, what if that wasn't the control? Well, who, who states the control basically?

And so if you flip these reactions, these interactions around, how will that change the paper? And so the lead, the lead author on that paper, Caitlin Fong actually came up with the title. And so it's definitely old to Missy Elliott for sure. I hope she knows. Do you think anyone's told Missy Elliott that there's a paper that cites her work? Oh man, no, I don't, I don't think so, but that would be awesome if it did. I know. So yes, Missy Elliott, two items on the agenda.

Please talk to me about Iconology, your album, and also you need to know that Dr. Moore was an author on Dr. Caitlin Fong's paper, once again titled, Flip It and Reverse It. Reasonable changes and designated controls can flip synergisms to antagonisms. If I get her on, I'll let her know about this paper. You have to. You have to. That was, I could just go ahead and dive in. It's all over.

I thought Alana Cole had a good question. When inspecting a site, what's the biggest red flag and signal of historical contamination? That's an interesting question because, okay, that's when you have to really think about depth in the soil. If you're thinking about a forest because I'm collecting like surface soil, the top layer. And so that's anything that's been, you know, the most recent. But if you start going deeper into the soil, you would need to pair that with like carbon dating and things like that. So you can get, understand like the time scale. And so that would be a whole different set of folks working on that type of project.

But I think people actually are trying to understand if you could see generational changes in biodiversity. Yeah, I imagine it's just like a big parfait full of dead things and mystery. Yes. Yeah, it is. It is. We had three people, three patrons ask questions. Derek Allen, Shailen Clark and Ewan Monroe. His first name is the Anglicization of the Scottish calic name Ewan.

Because yes, you do want to say Ewan. Do not say Ewan, but rather Ewan. Ewan. Ewan. Ewan. And Ewan Monroe. Ewan. Want to know if you have ever found any environmental DNA that would suggest cryptives like in Derek Allen's words to suggest Bigfoot or other cryptid elusive organisms.

Shailen wants to know if you find anything spooky, any spooky DNA, anything mysterious. Ewan wants to know anything where you're just like, what is it? So this is funny because I think there was one time, oh man, what is it Bigfoot? Is he having something else? Like a yeti and a Bigfoot, I think are the same thing? Well, either way. Okay. So when you get the data, so you have kingdom, class, but genus and species.

So, you know, humans are Homo sapiens, right? If that's the sample you get, the taxonomy you would get, you would get Homo sapiens. But for some reason it didn't go all the way to species level. It stopped at genus and it just said Homo. And so Homo, right, would be like Bigfoot. But there's no way. There's no way. There's no, there's no way.

So I just, you know, charged it as a, it just didn't go all the way. Like if that might have been an example of like a degraded sample. So we couldn't process it all the way. But that was interesting because everybody on the team was like, oh, Tierra found Bigfoot. And I'm like, stop saying this. Stop saying this. I love that that's the rumor in the lab that day. Right.

Casually uncovered Bigfoot DNA. Oh, last questions I always have to ask. What is the hardest part about environmental DNA or marine science? I imagine you don't get seasick if you're a marine scientist probably very often. No, I don't get seasick. I mean, for me, and I'll just say physically and I'll just be honest for this last project that I was working on in the forest, it was a challenge just hiking in this forest. It was, it was rough.

The girl was struggling, so really thinking about where you have to collect samples from especially because I was used to either, you know, getting off a bow or like pedaling my way into an estuary off of like just sliding down some sediment. So that was, that was a bit, a bit rough. And you're carrying all your gear too. Exactly. Exactly. And that is your work.

You can't just like trip on a route and spill everything and have that be a casual mistake, you know? Right. So I'll be honest, I went out collecting the first time and then I had to bow out gracefully and say, hey, somebody else got to get the rest of these because I can't do it. I just think it's so interesting to know that people who are figuring out how the world is affected, especially by, by industry and the way that we're changing the environment are like doing it with sometimes these tiny scoops of soil can tell these like huge stories,

you know? Yes. I think that's so cool. You're a detective. I'm a detective. It's so cool. A dirt detective. Yeah.

It's what everyone would call me. It's so cool. What about your, your favorite thing about being a scientist? Oh man. I mean, I get to do this job. Like honestly, sometimes I feel like I'm getting away with murder. I would say specifically when I'm doing my marine science stuff, when I was traveling the country scuba diving everywhere, I was like, yo, there's no way this is real life.

They're paying me to do this. Like I'm in the coolest place. I've been to this. I spent two months in Indonesia one time diving the coral triangle and it was just such an awesome experience. I'm like, what? I'm getting paid to do this. How is this happening?

So I think that is really what I've loved. And I just think about being a scientist, just the independence that I do have to ask questions and to figure it out. I'm always learning new stuff. I mean, this EDNA was something that, you know, it's probably my latest tool that I've learned and I'm still learning more stuff about that every day. So it's just really exciting to be in science, especially when you have an active imagination and you're looking for stuff.

Yeah. You can always find something new for sure. Oh, of course. Where can people follow you? Obviously. Plug away. So you can follow me at Curly, C-U-R-L-Y underscore scientists. And that's on Twitter and Instagram.

Black and Marine Science is at black in Mar-M-A-R-S-C-I on Twitter. And then it's black and marine science, the full name on Instagram. And then I also can't believe I didn't mention my other organization, a workspace, which is dedicated to creating safe spaces for women of color. We have a virtual community where we just have different events. So that's A-W-O-C-S-P-A-C-E, a workspace. That's it. Well, thank you so, so much for being gone.

You're the best. Thank you so much. I can't wait to hear it. So, yes, ask brilliant people basic questions and follow Curly underscore scientists, a.k.a. Tierra Moore and Happy Black and Marine Science Week, everyone. The link for all the events and hashtags is right in the show notes. So dive in. Your timeline will glimmer with cool science and refreshing great people all year long.

And we are at oligies on Twitter and Instagram. I'm at Ali Ward with 1L on both. Thank you, Aaron Talbert for admitting the oligies podcast Facebook group to Shannon and Bonnie for handling merch. Susan Hale and Noel Dilworth for all the oligies, biz behind the scenes. Thank you to Kelly R. Dwyer for making our website at alleyward.com. More links will be up at alleyward.com slash oligies slash forensic ecology, including links to donate to this week's causes.

Emily White of the Wordery makes our professional transcripts, which are available for free on our website. Caleb Patton bleeps episodes also available for free on the website. And every other week, we release Smologies, which is a shortened version of a classic episode that has been scrubbed of all of my filth and is classroom friendly. You're welcome. So thank you, Zeke Rodriguez-Thomas of Mind Jam Media. And of course, Stephen Ray Morris for working on those so swimmingly.

And of course, to the editor who floats the whole boat, Jared Sleeper. Thank you for working on this, Nick Thorburn. Happy birthday. Thanks for making the music. And if you stick around to the end of the episode, I give you just a little kernel of truth in the form of an embarrassing secret. And this week's secret is that I somehow went down an absolute rabbit hole researching ancient intoglio rings, which are like carved stone rings that people use for wax seals.

And I realized later, I think it was just because of like one split second shot in Dune where someone seals an important contract. And I honestly, I'm the worst. I can't remember the guy's name. Can't remember the character's name. I think it was a bad deal they signed. Definitely. I remember the cool wax ring.

So they're sad. Okay, bye-bye. What was his name? Duke Lido Atreides. I'm sorry. It was a bad deal with Hashire for a lot. He had a great ring though. Do you see that?

It was so big though. Too big. IWITNESS has described a human-like ape creature up to ten feet tall, broad-shouldered, hairy, and upright walking. But where is the evidence?