Ologies with Alie Ward - Indigenous Pedology (SOIL SCIENCE) with Lydia Jennings

Episode Date: November 23, 2022

Soil! Dirt! Earth. Dr. Lydia Jennings, aka Native Soil Nerd, breaks down the stuff under our feet and explains everything from mining to why soil can be different colors. Also: medicine from microbes, giving back to the land after extractive processes, collecting samples in urban rivers, elders’ ecological knowledge, planting hot Cheetos, potting soil mysteries, lung fungus, the smell of rain and why gardening makes you happy. Oh and running hundreds of miles for your science. Follow Dr. Lydia Jennings on Twitter @1NativeSoilNerd or on Instagram @llcooljenningsHer website: nativesoilnerd.comDonations went to RisingHearts.org and to Lydia’s film, Will Run for SoilMore episode sources and linksMore episodes you may enjoy: Geology (ROCKS), Indigenous Cuisinology (NATIVE COOKING), Indigenous Fire Ecology (GOOD FIRE), Indigenous Fashionology (NATIVE CLOTHING), Experimental Archeology (OLD TOOLS/ATLATLS), Carnivorous Phytobiology (MEAT-EATING PLANTS), Cycadology (RARE PLANT DRAMA), Bisonology (BUFFALO), Foraging Ecology (EATING WILD PLANTS), Critical Ecology (SOCIAL SYSTEMS + ENVIRONMENT)Sponsors of OlogiesTranscripts and bleeped episodesSmologies (short, classroom-safe) episodesBecome a patron of Ologies for as little as a buck a monthOlogiesMerch.com has hats, shirts, masks, totes!Follow @Ologies on Twitter and InstagramFollow @AlieWard on Twitter and InstagramSound editing by Mercedes Maitland & Jarrett Sleeper of MindJam MediaTranscripts by Emily White of The WordaryWebsite by Kelly R. DwyerTheme song by Nick Thorburn

Oh, hey, it's the leg that's asleep and waking it up is only going to feel worse, Ali Ward. And we're deep into autumn. A few weeks ago, we talked trash. And today, we're dishing dirt. We got a soil episode. So what is soil made of? Why it's different colors? What it smells like? If you should rub it on yourself, what happens after you mine stuff out of soil? Do you need a PhD to be a dirt expert? What is dirt versus soil? Is mud soil? Is clay? And how long does it take a soil scientist to go for a jog? So this indigenous pathologist is someone I've wanted to chat with for years and is so deeply revered and respected in her field, in her actual field, doing field work. They have an associate's degree in biology,

an undergrad degree in environmental science, technology and policy, and a minor in chemistry from California State University Monterey Bay, and just got a PhD from the University of Arizona in soil microbiology with a minor in American Indian policy. So thisologist is now doing a postdoc in community environment and policy at the University of Arizona in Tucson. And the most gruntable coincidence is that after all these years waiting and waiting and finally just recording remotely, I'll be in Tucson this week visiting Jared's grandma's zoo. So Tucson people get at me. Also, thank you to everyone who submitted questions for this via patreon.com slash oligies. A dollar a month gets you in that club. Thank you also to everyone who tells friends

and subscribes and rates and leaves reviews that has helped oligies stay at the top of the science charts. And I appreciate it so much that I read all the reviews and then I pick one to whisper at you like this fresh one from the zebra emoji reviewer who wrote, I feel like if I randomly ran into Ali at a sketchy gas station, I would recognize her immediately and she would probably give me some of her Cheetos she just bought. And those are facts, I would. So thank you for those. Let's get into the episode. Indigenous comes from the Latin meaning sprung from the land or native and pedology comes from the Greek word for ground or earth. And this particular oligist is a perfect fit for this episode, which coincidentally it is coming out during November,

which is Native American Heritage Month. So yes, let's listen, let's learn, celebrate and let's get dirty with soil microbiologist, researcher, data scientist, runner, filmmaker and indigenous pedologist, Lydia Jennings, PhD. Hi, everyone, my name is Lydia Jennings. And I go by she her pronouns. I'm a citizen of the Pasquale Yaqui and Mutual Nations. My dog is Solchicha. She's right here at my feet because she's my partner in crime. When I first met you, you're Lydia Jennings. You're now Dr. Jennings. Very exciting. Dr. Jennings now it's been a journey that finally happened. December 2020, right? Yeah, December 2020. It was supposed to be May 2020, but the pandemic, you know, it kind of took its toll. Oh, I, you know what? I can't believe that I didn't have this

teed up. But there is an ology for soil. Are you aware of this? Oh, yeah, pedology. Yes, yes, a lot of people in soil science are like pedologists. So soil science is like a interesting fact, right? Because soils, like people are very diverse, very, very ubiquitous, like they're one of, besides water, like soil and air, soil is the most common thing you're going to interact with. Humans have constructed all kinds of surfaces to not interact with soil, but soil still makes its way in through dust, right? The transports. And I'm saying all this because I think as you talk about pedology as this over encompassing field, there are a lot of different ways that people and scientists interact with soils. You know, it's really interesting

to see and identify as a soil scientist because it's encompassing so many other types of environmental fields. And pedology is one of those fields that soil science, that's really like the root of what, how we talk about soil science today. But like what I studied in my PhD work is much more around soil health and environmental contamination, environmental justice work. And it really took a process of like, am I a soil scientist? Like most of the analysis that I do is soils, but I also could be seen as a microbiologist who studies microbes in the soils. It took me a long time to actually identify as a soil scientist and I wear really proudly today. But it was actually on this, when I hope we talk about this, this 135 mile run that I did with two other women

soil scientists. One's a soil ecologist, one is a podologist. And they were able to identify the different layers of the soils and they do a whole thing called soil judging, which is something my university didn't have a team in. And I remember getting like, even though I have a PhD, getting like anxious or having imposter syndrome about being a soil scientist. And it led to this really beautiful conversation about who we are as soil scientists has so diverse, because soils are so diverse. And we have to be more inclusive in how we talk about soils because they are a big part of climate science and of contaminant science, of agricultural science, right? Soil's are embedded in so many different fields and really important in powerful ways.

We will indeed talk about that 135 mile run, because how could we not? My first question about it is, does she still have legs? Or did she wear them down to nubs like pieces of chalk? Because 135 is so many miles. But the best part about that run is that she made it into a film and it's called We'll Run for Soil. And it features two other soil scientists. And it's not out yet as of November 2022. Again, more on all of this in a bit. But for now, let's get some questions out of the way that are either brilliant or very, very not smart. But I love this next answer. And what is the difference between soil and dirt? It depends on you ask. The way I like to think about it is like, so dirt is displaced soil.

Soil is naturally occurring in the ecosystem. It's really full of life and microbes and, you know, helps filter water and dirt has kind of been removed from its home. And I think offline it gets degraded as being called dirt as opposed to recognizing the life force it is in part because of the removal from its home. Oh, that's such a good answer. I wasn't sure if it was like, it's got to have a certain percentage of rock or certain percentage of dust, but it's really more philosophical from what it sounds like. Yeah, it's just moving it from its surface. And so that's like, I think the easiest place is to call it like removed dirt soil. I think there are so many like soil microbiologists will also think about the microbes associated with soil.

You often hear people say soil is alive, dirt is dead, which I don't think is really true, especially as someone who studied mining issues. Like, there's a lot of questions about like, if a reclaimed soil system or a mined soil is full of life. And so I think dirt is displaced soil. What about mud? Is mud just wet soil? That's what I would, but it's also mud is often displaced as well, right? But it's highly saturated soil. So I'm in the Sonoran Desert, our soils typically have like 3% saturation of water, like they're really, really dry soils. And then I went into North Carolina. And to me, the soils there are like mud. They have like 45% saturation of water. And I'm like, Oh my God, but also those soils, you know, they hold so much

more humidity and like so much more organic matter decomposition. And so I think it's all these kind of ecosystem dependent. Well, let's talk about what is in a handful of soil. What is in soil? So within soil, you often talk about in a single teaspoon of soil, there's like over 10,000 microbes in there. And there's all these nutrients in there that help make the soil. And that really speaks to the parent material and the climate. So parent material being like rocks, right? For more on that parent material, you can see the recent two part geology episode about rocks with Schmidt Thompson, who was a treasure and a gem themselves. And the climate that helped make that soil color

and texture and also the nutrients that are breaking down in the soil. We often can't see the sort of soil particles themselves, but they have little macro pores where different microbes or chemical interactions can happen. And so soils are so diverse in part because our landscapes are so diverse. And soils are affected by the climate and the temperature and the moisture regime, even like the slopes and angles when you go on a mountain, you can see on one side of the area has really dry soil on the other side, it has really wet soil because of the important things of slope and different aspects that can affect a soil system. And then you have all the biological activity that's happening. So I think of the different plants and animals that are interacting

with that soil to help make it what it is. And so it really is kind of this embodiment of our ecosystems and all the things that interact with our ecosystems, including humans. What was it about soil that drove you to get a PhD in it, run 135 miles with other soil scientists? Obviously, you have a passion for this. Where did that come from? Yeah, I mean, I think in talking about my love for soils today, it's really been a meandering river. I started at community college as like a biology major. And I thought at one point in time, I wanted to bring marine biologists. And my undergrad degree was environmental science, technology, and policy with a minor in chemistry. And so I really liked the first soils class I

took. I thought it was so cool to learn with a cation exchange capacity. And just like all these chemical reactions that are happening within soils themselves, and also just like their ability to hold moisture, I just thought that was really cool. If I had a dollar for every time I've thought about cation exchange capacity, I could get an Arizona ICT because I was like, what the fuck is that? But I looked it up. Let's break it down because it's cool. And soil is all about it. So a cation has fewer electrons than it has protons. So it's an ion with a positive charge. So think of a happy positive cat that you're keeping an ion. But what is an ion even? It's an atom or molecule with some kind of electrical charge, because either it's gained or lost an electron.

So a cat ion is a positive one, a negative ion is an anion. But not all atoms are ions, some are just neutral and not positive or negative. They're just sitting there knitting, mining their beeswax. But yes, a cat ion is a positively charged ion. Cool. Now the cat ion exchange capacity CEC is great for soil science, which is probably something you never thought you think about, because that cat ion exchange capacity is a metric of how many cat ions, positive ions like calcium and magnesium and potassium that plants need can stay in the soil. So clay and organic matter tend to be negatively charged, which means that they'll attract those cat ions like magnesium and calcium and potassium, which you now know are positively charged. So the

cat ion exchange capacity is a measure of the negative charge in the soil to figure out how much good cat ion action can stick around without leaching from the soil and getting washed away before the plant can use it. Kind of like if you needed to transport a bunch of weasels. You got to figure out how big is your purse to calculate how many weasels you can fit in your bag. So yes, Lydia was learning about this while getting her associates in biology at Cabrillo Community College and an undergrad. But still, soil didn't have her whole heart yet. I was much more interested in marine systems. And then I worked for about three years before going to grad school as an environmental toxicologist. And I thought I'd be doing a lot of like water testing, which I did,

but I also did a lot of sediment testing for toxicity. And I began to think a lot more about texture, like we would go and sample these river systems, we sampled all the major rivers in California. And we would look at trying to get the fine grain sediment versus like sandy sediment. So the fine grain sediment can hold onto toxins, in this case, a lot of pesticides, and also like oils that were being sprayed. And it was there like understanding how small particles can hold onto so much toxins that have all these impacts to ecosystems and to different marine organisms that are growing. So I thought that part of it was really interesting, just the complexity and power of these such small materials, right, the small grains

and fine fine sediment. And I think as I came and pursued my graduate degree, I wanted to use my love for science in a way that really served my own cultural heritage and my own tribal nation. Environmental injustices are really prevalent in Native communities for a variety of like structural racism reasons. But as I was studying all this environmental toxicology and sampling all these major riverways in California, it was really clear to me just in that three year time period of seeing how the areas that were most polluted with pesticides were often in close proximity to poor income and predominantly brown communities. And then you'll also even just see how the difference between Northern California and Southern California, how they talked about the

environment so differently, was really interesting. And those are like all big scale things, but it kind of comes down also to how we concentrate environmental pollution, right? And so again, those low income areas really having a lot more environmental contamination near them. So I wanted to understand how can we learn about the soil systems in a way and work with the biggest polluters to actually not just mark that these areas are contaminated, but actually develop solutions. And so as I pursued my PhD program, it was like one of the biggest contaminators in Arizona is mining companies, some of the biggest ones. And there is so much mining in close proximity to my tribal nation and other tribal nations in Arizona. So how can I use this

love of science and this understanding of soil systems to be able to work and address those environmental contamination? So though Dr. Lydia Jennings grew up in Santa Fe, New Mexico, which are Tua lands, she is a citizen of the Pasquayaki and Huskoal nations and zoom into those lands and you'll find tiny, tiny, itty bitty bits of land and minerals and chemicals and animals and tiny plants. It's like interesting because I love soils. I love their complexity. They're really complex and dependent on the soil systems and how they hold contaminants and all of their chemistry. But also I think bringing in an indigenous perspective and recognizing that relationship and reciprocity that we have with our environmental ecosystems. And in a lot of ways understanding

what are the soils tell us about their health that we can understand using both indigenous epistemologies and our typical soil science metrics to help improve these ecosystems health long-term and that's helping humans and animals long-term health as well. And so that's kind of where I see like the work that I love to do today. When you were doing these samples in northern and southern California, how did you even emotionally prepare to try to get a sample from the LA River? How did that go from someone who lives very close to the LA River? The LA River for people who have never seen it is, wow. So for those who haven't ever seen it, quick description. The LA River is a 51 mile trickle of runoff that was concreted into a big

massive great ditch by the Army Corps of Engineers. And though there are parts like there's this 11 mile stretch of Glendale Narrows kind of near Silver Lake that have crumbled on the bottom and allowed for plants and animals to return amid the shopping carts and discarded Gatorade bottles and such. But before it became the saddest waterway in the West, one which the LA Times reported was quote, mostly industrial and residential discharge. The LA River used to be this thriving wetland and the Tongba land that we now call Los Angeles was like this giant waffle of ponds and swamps. If you've ever been in LA, have you ever taken La Cienega? La Cienega means the swamp. But now it's just a big mall on dry asphalt. But yes, the LA River, the aquatic underdog we're all rooting for.

So I went to this college in Santa Cruz. So it's really easy to be an environmentalist there, right? Because it's like redwood trees in the ocean. And like, it's really easy to be a tree hugger when you get to sample in beautiful places. And so I kind of didn't know what to expect when I went down sampling in the LA River or the Tijuana River where I had to like triple layer of protection because it smelled toxic or when I had to collect samples next to a meat rendering plant, you know, delicious. And it just smelled like death. Like those are all really tough experiences that I didn't know how to mentally prepare. I think that like being an endurance runner where you just like put your head down and get through it is kind of like how I process that. One of my

favorite experiences sampling in the LA River. So I think it's really interesting how in Southern California, particular rivers are named after the streets that go over them. While in Northern California, streets are named after the rivers that they are over, right? And like how just the naming of river systems kind of also shapes how people interact with the environment, which I found super fascinating. I had no idea. So the LA County, right? Like all the rivers are highly channelized. Like if you didn't know to look for a river, you might miss it. Because there's so so much like concrete built around it. We had to like tie your rope on this side pole or whatever in waiters and big backpacks that carried a four gallon glass jar, like basically slowly lower

ourself down on the rope to get to the LA River channels and then collect soil sediments there. And it was amazing when you get down there. A lot of times they were like cool to see how sediment had built up and there are trees and riparian areas growing. There are other times where like there are huge homeless encampments that we had to navigate around. I mean, it was definitely always on your toes. But I think to me, those experiences of being in the heart of the city, but also seeing how nature and natural ecosystems were also trying to reconquer the concrete was really beautiful. And I imagine if you've got a glass jar, that's because you don't want to use plastics, which could maybe contaminate your samples. Like how do you even go about figuring

out what's in them? Yeah. So in that time, we were looking particularly for any presence of heavy metals and pesticides. And so with plastics, there are potential for some of those compounds in the soils to react with the plastic surfaces. So it's better for long term preservation to keep it in glass and then keep it in a controlled environment. The type of vessels in which you collect samples are really dependent on what you're sampling for. And also like just thinking about potential volatiles that might be happening in plastics versus glass, right? When you're doing the soil analysis, what things are you looking for? Like the metals, how much rock is there? How much moisture is there? Is there a histogram of what's in each thing? Depends on the project,

but that project that I did in this gap year between, these gap years between my undergrad and my PhD, that project was a stream pollution trans monitoring project. And so we were sampling all the major riverways in California and looking for kind of areas of more concentrated pollution or not, then particularly looking at pesticides, heavy metals, and any kinds of oils or other types of waste rooms that might be in those systems. And then we were able to look at, okay, we sample 100 spots throughout California, these are the areas that are more concentrated in terms of pollution. And we were able to give that to the California EPA, which then was able to talk to the regional EPAs, environmental protection agencies, and kind of start to make some management

decisions about how to address those hot spots of pollution. I keep on talking about pesticides, because that was one of the biggest ones, also insecticides, like we would actually go out and sample some agricultural fields in like near Sacramento area after they had sprayed different types of insecticides to address mosquito populations. And so that was really interesting because we would go out before they sprayed, and then like, you know, an hour after they sprayed, 12 hours after they sprayed, 24 hours after they sprayed, and seven days after they sprayed to really see how those levels were decreasing. That was just a really interesting example of like, how as humans, we're using our science and chemistry to address one type of irritant,

but we're also potentially creating others. And so that's why we have to be monitoring that, to make sure that we're keeping people healthy from both the insects, but also from the pesticides and pesticides that we use to address those insects. So that was an undergrad project, but her PhD research focused on looking at microbial critters in soil to figure out how much mining waste was left in the soil. Asking the soil, hey, who's in here? What's the vibe? But now like my PhD work, you know, I measured very different things. So that was more of like, less about the chemistry and environmental toxicology work. And this in my PhD, where I was looking at soil health, then I would measure the soil texture, the soil pH, the soil electrical

connectivity that I would collect samples, and I have to collect clean samples to get microbes, and then do a variety of like, analyses when I got back right away, because you don't want your microbes to die. They're very sensitive. Were you hang on in that pot? You mentioned also that we are so concentrated on making barriers to soil. And how important are all of the minerals and microbes and funguses and all the things that live in dirt? Like, should we be breathing more of that? Should we be getting that under our fingernails and in our ears? Are we not dirty enough? I feel like we're not dirty enough. And that's maybe that's just maybe not wanting to wash my hair. But yeah, I mean, I think that's an interesting question about

like, what is dirty enough? COVID-19 introduced a lot of increased sanitation that I think is necessary in that respect. But conversely, you know, there has been a number of interesting studies that looking at like, what is happening to us? You know, if you think about the one health, which is like this idea that we recognize that we're living within an ecosystem. And so when we would change one factor in that ecosystem, we have potential to impact a lot of other factors in that ecosystem. And us humans being part of that ecosystem, so our bodies being an ecosystem and recognizing that. And the reason why I bring that up is because there has been some really interesting studies that looked at how gardeners in particular have lower levels of depression,

in part because you're actually digging into the soil, and you're inoculating yourself constantly with those soils, which have microbes that actually are really good for elevating your mood. So for more on this, you can just do some light reading of the neuroscience paper titled, identification of an immune responsive mesolimicortical serogenic system, potential role in regulation of emotional behavior, which describes findings linking this one soil bacterium, mycobacterium vasci, to lowered stress and better focus, immune modulation that could lead to less brain inflammation, and more serotonin. There's been another study that looks at how your pets, I'm sitting next to my dog, Salchicha, how your pets are really good inoculators of microbes

from the soils that they're like rolling around and outside and they come and rub up on you, and they inoculate you with microbes that help boost your mood. And so I think that there are really interesting ways in which we as humans have co-evolved to be wanting to be closer to natural ecosystems. And more recently, and I like definitely Western colonization and industrialization have really built up means to keep us separate. Today, we increasingly have more issues associated with depression and anxiety, and there's a lot of factors why. And there have been studies that show more time in nature helps decrease some of that depression. So I think that there are interesting associations that have not been correlated, but I hope that more people are

interested in investigating that in the future. I'm a trail runner, so I try to get outside as much as possible. I have a dog who I'm trying to get to constantly inoculate me, even if she doesn't want to snuggle. And so I think there are those really interesting ways that we can take that matter into our own hands. So being outside and near alive stuff and green things are good for you. And we cover some of this in the Osomology episode with Neil Pezricha, and also in the Dendrology episode about trees. But you can also talk to a doctor about it or just go out, huff some bark. You can also ask the US Forest Service, which has a whole webpage dedicated to facts like studies also show that being outside in nature is relaxing, reducing our stress,

cortisol levels, muscle tension, and heart rates. So even the US Forest Service wants you to be happy and is like, get your keyster in the out of doors, which reminds me, I would like to start jogging again. I was going to ask, as a runner, how hard is it for you to actually stay on task and get your run done without just pulling over and being like, look at this. Look at this soil. Look at that. This one's so loamy, and this one has peat in it, and this one's red, and this one's brown. How do you even keep running? Yeah, we call that a soil scientist phase. Going a soil scientist phase? No, but I mean, there are different, you know, you have runs for different intentions, and sometimes it's like, I just need to get out there to escape,

look at my computer screen, and I get pulled away and distracted, and that's okay. Sometimes I want to go and work run really hard and like, feel my lungs burn, and that's okay. I have those times too, and I think it's giving myself the permission to, as long as I'm getting out to experience whatever that's going to be. You know, when I was training for the Boston Marathon, I didn't run on trails very much because I was very workout focused, but you know, today I went out with my boyfriend, and so we just wanted to get out and have a good time and look at the swirls, cactus is blossoming, and be together, and so just like we walked, ran, we talked, you know, there's different reasons to go out, but each time is enjoyable.

What about questions that you get? Do you have a lot of people with gardens and house plants who are like, Dr. Jennings, what am I doing wrong? Was there ever a time when styrofoam balls were necessary in house plants? Did they do that, or did I imagine that? Yeah, so I mean, I think it's really important to highlight that I am not like a master gardener or horticulturist. I said he contaminated soils, but some of that knowledge around soils and soil health applied to other fields, but like my dad is definitely much more of a master gardener than I will ever be. He doesn't have a degree, but it's one of the ways that I feel like he's a lived experience expert and has a PhD and just through trial and error, because community engagement and

education redistribution is really important to me. So it's really important for me to do different workshops with particularly tribal members. And last summer I was helping out with some friends, they have like a community farm in northern New Mexico, and it's called the Three Sisters Collective, and they have this community engaged farm to create place-based space for young indigenous people. And so they had a workshop about like just talking about soil health, and they asked me to come and talk about it. And it was really cool because it was a space only for indigenous growers and beginning those who are plant enthusiasts. And so some of the people questions I got was like, okay, so if we're trying to think about different like fertilizers or

nutrients, like I think people give cheetos, hot cheetos to their plants, is that okay? And it was like really funny, you know, to talk about, and they're like, I would never ask someone normally, but like you're part of my community. And I feel comfortable to ask this. And I'm like, well, there's not any documentation of it, but like cheetos have these different chemicals and like, maybe, but it's not something that I would recommend. And like, okay, if there's a curiosity, like we always want to help spark that. And for more on sharing traditional knowledge, when it comes to food, you can see the Indigenous colonology episode with Mariah Gladstone from Indigikitchen, and I'll link that in the show notes.

I also looked up the benefits of hot cheetos for plants, and I found a viral TikTok by Sweet Nothing's TV. So I'm going to teach you how to grow your own hot cheetos. 10 out of 10, convincing as hell, but no, not real. To obtain cheetos, you have to meet me at a sketchy gas station, and I will give you one like you are my special raccoon friend. Also, why is there styrofoam in potting soil? I asked the Google and sometimes those little white nuggets you see in potting soil, sometimes those are just added mineral blobs called perlite, which is this lightweight volcanic glass. It degrades naturally over time because it's a natural thing, but sometimes those little white beads in potting soil are just styrofoam,

just lurking in potting soil to help with drainage and aeration. But yeah, it's just like adding tiny confetti litter into the soil. And the next generation of humans on earth are like, we are asking you from the future to not styrofoam the soil. When you were going down the path toward a PhD, did you talk to elders or did you get any resources from the tribal community in terms of what questions you were asking or what data you were collecting? Yeah, so it's interesting because I did not start, I got in a grub in my community. I grew up around other tribal nations. A big reason why I chose to come to University of Arizona was it's a close proximity to my, the tribe that I'm enrolled in. And so I knew like mining had been a

big issue and that was something like I reached out to. So the important part was like as I began my PhD project, and I knew I wanted to work on mining issues. And that first year, I really just spent time like going and becoming part of community and like talking about what I was interested. The project I was hired in on was not really community engaged at all. It was more working with mining companies on reclaiming the land. But by the presence of who I am, it was really important for me to ensure that there was a cultural component in the engaging with tribal nations. How we teach soil education and environmental science education in general is predominantly not centering native knowledge or expertise.

So Lydia said that she began by doing science outreach to kids and then building trust within the community to get insight into mining practices for her research on the importance of traditional ecological knowledge in mining consultation. So building that trust was a really key aspect of her research. And she says it's tough if you don't have faculty or advisors that can guide you on that. So engaging properly, centering community knowledge, all of that is a skill that she developed. And she now tries to mentor students in a way that she wasn't trained to do. And so I think like right now in general in science we see a lot more of emphasis and like highlighting the importance of importance of traditional ecological knowledge or indigenous

knowledge systems. But like we have to recognize that that's pretty recent. I mean even in the PhD time I felt like I was really dissuaded from pursuing those and was much more encouraged to get the technical science down. And so now I've done both and I feel good about that. So we'll get back to soil but this topic was really interesting to me and important especially during Native American Heritage Month and also every month. Yeah, do you have any advice for any Indigenous students that you wish you had known when you started your PhD? Yeah, I mean I definitely think finding Indigenous mentorship is critical. I think getting involved with different Native science organizations, whether that's the American Indian Science and

Engineering Society or SOCNAS, the Society for Advancement of Chief Scholars in Native Americans and Sciences, there's Native American Fish and Wildlife Group. I think it's really important that you have a network of mentors not just one person too because each of us have different communities that we have been mentored by and who can we speak with. But you know there's 576 different tribal nations in the United States so each community operates differently. And there's power in that but it also means knowing the proper protocols of the nations in which you come from and in which you choose to engage with. I'm not an expert. I have some trained knowledge in something but there are many people who I would say have PhDs in our community without the formal letters

and those are, I see as my role as an Indigenous scientist is to amplify their expertise and I can never speak on behalf of them. I can only amplify the expertise that has been shared with me. So you don't have to have a PhD to be an expert or to be on this podcast even though Dr. Jennings has one. And getting back a little bit to the work that you did with mining and contamination, tell me straight like how fucked is the soil after mining and what happens to get it back to a healthy place? What can you do? Is it like unringing a bell? Yeah so the work that I did prior to my PhD was the heavy metal measurement but in my PhD it was kind of understanding that the soil can tell us about its health after it's been mined and then in Arizona they use a strategy

called cap and plant so say a mountain you have a mining pit right and that's been dynamited out and then it goes through a series of chemical and physical treatments to get out the metal of interest which in our case is copper. So Arizona, I didn't know this, supplies over 60% of the nation's copper and I always pictured it like gold mining where people just look for nuggets of copper or like veins in rock but copper. However, according to too many weird old mining documentaries I just watched a little too late at night on YouTube what happens is they blast these big gaping holes in the earth and then they drag out a bunch of grayish brownish dirt and then they take that into a factory and they crush it into this sandy texture and then it's kind of boiled

with sulfuric acid to nab the metal into this copper sulfate solution so great so that's how they get it out boom boom boom then they make that into shiny pretty copper that we use in all kinds of applications. I skipped a bunch of steps but you get the point so what's left over? Just a bunch of extra rock and six of the top 10 environmental toxins according to the World Health Organization which ones, I'll tell you, mercury, lead, arsenic, particulate air pollution, asbestos and cadmium. It's delicious. And then all of that waste material from the chemical and physical treatments gets put into what they call a tailings pond and so it's kind of like this gray slurry. Nice nice nice. And so that gets stacked up into an area and it's really really

moist because you don't want it to get into the local dust transport systems but you have to figure out how to get that to be stabilized and then try to get things to grow on there and so often what they do in the Sonoran Desert is they take soil from an offsite desert area and they put it on top of the mind tailings themselves. Like if your hair looks a mess just pop a little hat on top but it's a cap made of soil and your hair is byproducts from mining. And mind tailings I should say they're about the size and consistency of cooking flour so they're really small and it's really wet and that's why it can be an environmental contaminant issue even just because of the small particulate which can get deeply embedded in your lungs. And so the main strategy is cap and plant

and it's taking the soil from the desert area and often times it's surface soil and putting on top of the mind tailings which creates what they call a soil cap. And then on top of that they will then seed plants to try to establish what they call a vegetative cap on top of the mind tailings itself. And so that's what I studied was looking at an area that had been seeded, the land was leased from a tribal nation in the area, basically look at that strategy of how has the area been recovering after it's been seeded and what can the soil tell us about how the seed mix is working. And so that's where we were able to study all these below ground metrics on the biological chemical and physical parameters but then also what's happening above ground in

terms of plant coverage and species diversity. And so what was interesting was the tribe chose to invest a lot more seeds than are normally planted. Most mining companies will choose maybe 10 but the tribe chose to invest in about 37. In part that's informed by technological knowledge and what's commercially available but also just what kind of plants they want that ecosystem to look like into the future. So I think that that was what's really interesting and then seeing how it changed over six years in terms of vegetation and recovering. For more on this you can see Lydia's dissertation titled Evaluating the Biotic Potential of Degraded Soil Development on Reclaimed Mind Tailings in Southern Arizona, which has a section on page 44 titled Indigenous Perspectives

on Reclamation. And she writes that for Indigenous peoples, ethics of reclamation are as much about redressing inequities of power and capacity and agency as it is cleaning up the environment in the traditional context of things like restoration, remediation, revegetation, and rehabilitation. And she continues, this belief contrasts with the settler colonial tradition of viewing land as an object one can own. And then she cites the research of Dr. Robin Wall Kimmerer, who's the author of Braiding Sweetgrass and was last week's biology guest about moss. But yes, Lydia studied this land for more than half a decade. And so six years is relatively long for a field study. But we found some really cool trends. Of

course, there's always more things I wish I would have done. I wish I would have done like more molecular work and fungal work. But you know, that's part of being a researcher is that you feel like there are always more questions to ask. And as a scientist, you kind of get to keep asking those in your continued work, right? Yeah, it's like, well, you have a little bit of information, but then you have more questions, which I think is exciting. And I think that's also made me think a lot about how we think about how we do science moving forward. You know, I talked a little bit about my work and kind of the tribal consultation piece and thinking about, well, we value traditional ecological knowledge in trying to develop the seed mix to re-vegetate this area, but we don't

value it when it comes to tribal consultation for new mines. And like, why is that? So it's kind of left me to shift my research questions a little bit now. And I'm actually looking at data mining in addition to heavy metal mining. But I think that they're interrelated in similar systems operate within very similar patterns. Yeah, that's something that I'm sure would get overlooked so much. And having someone asking those questions and being there to understand the many, many nuances is so, so important. Anything that people think about soil that they get wrong? Anything that you just want to stand on a soapbox and be like, no, it's this? Well, I think like a big part is that we're not on the soil, we're with the soil, right? We're part

of the ecosystems, we're not above it. And I think this notion that we're above is a very like settler colonial narrative, but recognizing our interdependence on soils, on the water that filters through soils, on the foods that grow on the soils, on us who gain happiness of running and recreating on those soils, and just kind of recognizing that they're not just something that we step on, no matter where you're at, you're going to be interacting with soils, even if you're in a city, if that city is built on urban soils, just recognizing all of those ways that we are part of the ecosystem. So we have to care about it if we care about our own health, but also them existing for the sole purpose that they are is so important. I guess I'm just asking your audience to reframe

how they think about soils as something like that's not just to be studied or to be extracted from, but as something that we have a responsibility to care for, for our health, for our planet health, and for our future health. And we become soil pretty much. We become soil. Yes, it's so amazing. And like all the microbes that we're talking about that help make us happy, help break us down so that we're not covered with crap, you know, form poop. You know, so I think like that part is so exciting. Soils really are everything. How much do you love her? We love her. And we have one billion questions from listeners who know that you're coming on. Can we lob some at you? We'll do like a lightning round. Sure. Okay. But before we cut to the break,

Lydia and I talked for a little bit about a film that she just finished shooting called Will Run for Soil. And so myself and two other women's soil scientists, we ran 135 miles last September and they're running the farthest any of us have ever run before and attempts to really increase public awareness about soils. Most students, most college students don't get training thinking about soils, despite it being this ubiquitous medium that we all interact with. And so we are all through men's soil scientists and literature will tell you the average soil scientist is a 65 year old white guy named Robert, like statistically speaking. But we're like three very different women who are running, who are all studies of soil science, but also love to run.

And so we kind of combined forces to run this really remote trail in the desert, starting in Nukla, Colorado and ending in Moab, Utah, and just looking at soils all along the way and talking about them and why these soils are beautiful, both color wise, but also culturally, you know, recognizing that many indigenous people run to those areas prior to us, but also like talking about the language and what it means to be a soil scientist. And they are still working on post production. So if any listeners who work in programming for South by Southwest, or you know someone, find Lydia Jennings and the will run for soil people because they're interested in screening it at South by Southwest when it's done. And if

you need me to intro the panel, hi, just holler. So that run to be visible film is already made, but she's making the new one will run for soil. And you can donate to that if you like. I'm going to put a link on my website. But for her donation for this episode, she chose Rising Hearts, which was founded by Jordan Daniels, who also directed Lydia's first film. And risinghearts.org is an indigenous led organization elevating indigenous voices and fostering intersectional growth through organizing and programming. And you can go to risinghearts.org to learn more about their wellness classes, advocacy, community jobs, running with a purpose and running on native lands programs. So to find out more, go to risinghearts.org. And then for fun,

we made a second donation toward editing Lydia's current film will run for soil and will include a link on our website to both. So those donations were made possible by sponsors, apologies. All right, finally, your questions patrons. And if you want to submit questions, you too can join for $1 a month at patreon.com. But you don't have to. But yes, patron questions. Okay, I am going to lob some questions at you. A lot of folks want to know about the spectra of dirt. Genesis, Ray Holloman, Jess Loeffler, Ali T want to know why does dirt come in different colors? Why is it rust colored? Why is it brown? So yes. What's in there? Yeah, so the different colors of soil really come from the variety of nutrients that are

broken down to or I say nutrients, but really like the rock materials that are broken down. That's one source of color. But then there is also a source of color from the chemical reactions, you know, you're talking about those red and rust colors that can come from kind of an iron oxidation. Here in the Sonoran Desert, we have a lot of like, there are areas that have blue soils and it's from different copper oxides. So those are another component of that. And then also just like the weathering process. So thinking about how those are not only, you know, exposed to oxygen or to other forces, but then also how they get transported that can often cause different soil colors. So to recap, reddish soils tend to have more iron oxides and wider soils tend to contain

more salt or silicates or calcite. Black soil has more decomposing organic matter stuff. And there are even greenish soils that have Glockonite, which is an iron potassium phylo silicate. But I mean, you know that. Also, if you're wondering how pedologists agree on color swatches, it's not with a Pantone wheel, but it's with something called a monsel chart that helps them compare the hue, like reddish, bluish or yellowish, the value, which is light to dark, and the chroma or like the saturation of color. But even without the charts, there's long held knowledge about how fertile a soil is based on a look. There's different language translations for like black soil being good soil and white soil being poor soil. And we can like look at that how that translates to

actual organic matter levels or actual salinity levels in the soil, right? There's all these different ways our cultures have evolved with soils. And somehow we've gotten separated and lost from that, but they're part of us. We're part of them. And I also want to really give a shout out to my friend, Karen Vaughn, who has the art of soil website. And she actually sells custom made soil pigment kits that are amazing. And so she is kind of who I would say is like a soil colors expert and has these amazing kits and recipes that she's made to kind of help amplify the colors of the soils. So art of soil is a great small company that makes watercolor art supplies out of different soils. And you can just gawk over these refillable cherry wood palettes with little

discs of earth toned pigments with names like Sprout and Bluebird and Basalt. And I can see why they have 82,000 followers on Instagram. I feel like my heart rate goes down just looking at their page. So art of soil for anyone shopping small businesses this holiday. Who knew being gifted a lump of coal is actually tight as hell? Okay, onward. Kelly King, Ashley Oakey, first time question asker, Cara Funt, first time question asker, Kylie Sheeda. So many folks want to know clay versus soil. Kelly King is a beginner potter here and is wondering if clay is technically dirt or if it's something else? Yeah, I would say clay is not dirt. Okay. And I might get some pushback on this, but you know, get the talk kind of going back to this initial definition of dirt

being displaced soil. Well, clay is really more in that place. It does get transported, right? And clay is one of those finer particulates. But I don't think that it's dirt. Okay, that's good to know. That's my final answer. I'm like, oh man, am I going to get some pushback? You know, if it could be a matter of opinion here. So everyone who asked if clay was soil, clay is an element of soil, but by itself, it's very, very, very, very small rocks surrounded by this molecular film of water, which is why it is squishy and moldable. Now, for more on clay, you can see the Geology episode on rocks with Schmidty Thompson. But honestly, I want to do a whole episode on clay and pottery and kilns and all that. I don't know what theology is, but I want

to do it. But in that Geology episode with Schmidty Thompson, we also discuss licking rocks. So what about sniffing the soil? So many of you, such as First Time Question Askers, Professor Kosha, Meg Geisinger, and Amelia McCartle, as well as Alphabet, Lindsay Deal, Rona Taylor, Alexandra Romano, it's all which is editor Mercedes Maitland and aforementioned Geology guest Schmidty Thompson, as well as First Time Question Asker, Anuha Joshi, as well as other people want to know, does soil smell different in different regions and why? Yes. Part of it is, right, the amount of moisture and again, the material that has been breaking down in those regions. So again, I was in North Carolina in the Lumbee and like,

there are just certain plants that are there that make the soil smell so much more uniquely versus being in California last weekend. A lot of the soil there, it smelled like the eucalyptus to me because of the eucalyptus trees that are around there that are breaking down. For more on why California has so many non-native eucalyptus trees grown from Australian seeds, you can listen to the recent xylology episode, which is all about wood. We'll make you laugh and cry and eucalyptus has hopefully never felt so seen. So we get into it. But in other parts of the continent, North Carolina had these like tannins in the soil and you could see it. And in fact, like the indigenous people there call themselves people of the dark waters from the tannins. And so I think

there are definitely different elements of the soil or of the ecosystem that influence the soil feel and smell in really beautiful ways. Shout out to the people of the dark waters, the Lumbee tribe of Northern Carolina. But why are those waters dark? Well, the tannins are plant compounds that evolved to deter herbivores who would come along and munch it. And your dark tea, that's tannins. So some rivers are just big streams of tea if you want to think about it. And you can just dunk your body like a little biscuit. But back to arid lands. And you're in the desert, which is the most best smelling, most best smelling dirt place I feel like ever. I have never smelled anything like driving through the Arizona desert when it rains. And

Ronna Taylor, Jessica Jansen, Megan McLean, Ariel Van Sant, Francesca Huggins, Allison, Maysing, Hanna Cargrave, Liv Bruce, first time question askers, Apollonia Pina, Megan Matthews, Ader, Emily Crager. I mean, we have a lot of people want to know essentially about Petricor. Why does soil smell so good after a rain? Is it true that big drops release some kind of volatile oils compounds? I'm in the Sonoran Desert. And the smell of the desert after it rains is really the smell of creosote, which is this plant that does have certain oils on it. And I feel like that's what gets activated. In part, I think like the desert has just like baked for so long that that moisture just activates so many microorganisms who start breaking down those materials and really

powerful base. I think that's like the general smell that we have is that breakdown material process. But in the Sonoran Desert in particular, it's the creosote that gets activated. And the oils on there that get released and create those aromatics that are just so incredible. And you actually can see people who take branches of it and we'll put it in their shower so that they can smell it on a more regular basis. We're just replanting our hillside with native plants. And it's been a process this year. But one of the plants that we put in is a native coyote brush, which smells is like that smell of the desert. It's a baby right now and it's growing. And I'm just, I can't wait to just put my whole face in it because it smells so good.

Yeah, it's an amazing, a really unique smell. And it's funny, like after it rains in the desert, I, you know, I like to go on her runs and check it out because the desert feels so alive. But I swear you can hear the soil just like absorbing the moisture. And it just sounds everything the desert is so happy. And you could just hear about soil so thankful for the moisture. And it's one of my favorite. And it's a really like subtle weird sound like people like Lydia you're imagining things. But I swear you can hear it. I looked everywhere for an example of this. And it is not a sound that has been caught on tape a lot. So I'm just going to have to sit in the desert and wait for some kind of monsoon. And as for the sweet, sweet smell of rain. So Petrichor means

the godly blood of a stone. But scientists call it Argillaceous odor, which I learned from the 1964 publication in the journal Nature, which was titled the nature of Argillaceous odor, which says it. Yes, oils that are produced by plants sink into dry clay soils. And then when rain falls, that oil becomes an aerosol. And it's mixed with something called geosmin, which is a byproduct of little bacteria, little rod shaped ones called actinomyces, which are everywhere in soil and in us. The human nose is so attuned to finding water that we can detect the smell of geosmin in concentrations as low as 0.04 parts per billion, which is not a lot of parts. But what about the types of rainfall? Well, in this other paper,

2014's aerosol generation by raindrop impact on soil, researchers figured out that the way the scent hits our faces via aerosol is that the rain hits the ground and bubbles form in the raindrop. And then the bubbles burst along the surface of the raindrop, kind of like a fizzy beverage. So slower raindrops produce more bubbles, thus the smell, which is why light rains, particularly on really dry soil, that's the most bang for your buck when it comes to Petrichor, or I guess Argillaceous odor. But what does Argillaceous even mean? I just looked it up. It means of a relating to clay. And when I saw that, my throat closed, my palms got sticky, and I was like, no, is it possible? And I googled Argyllology. Yes, it's the study of clay. Shut up, this is happening. I found the

ology for clay. What a same episode payoff. That never happens. But yes, Petrichor, thank you, plant oils, and thank you for that sweet musky earth whiff that we all love. You, Geosman making actinomyces bacteria, just kisses on your tiny microbutts. Have you heard of any other soil scientists looking for antibiotics from soil? Tara McNeely, Laura Cooper, and Anne wanted to know, are there microbes in soil that maybe might be used medicinally? Yeah, definitely. There are a fair amount of research projects that look at different antibiotics and microbes that can have healing processes. I think a lot of that work has traditionally been done more in Latin America than here in the Southwest, although I believe some research has

also focused on microbes in extreme environments for medicinal purposes. I think there is something to be said that particularly as we think about climate change and how our environments are changing, that people are looking at extreme environments for potential solutions, both environmentally, but also pharmaceutical based. Okay, so one tiny gram of soil contains up to three billion bacteria and a million fungi, and there's soil everywhere. And this was news to me, but the vast majority of antibiotics come from soil, including penicillin and streptomycin, and researchers are looking at an anti-cancer drug that was found in a hot spring in New Mexico. Plus, there's this whole slew of antibiotics called malacidins derived from soil. There may

literally be a cure for cancer in your garden. And I'm looking at you patrons, Chris Brewer, Harper Thomas, Marisa Holtzman, Alessa Vice, Sigwani Dana, Rachel Adams, Shannon Foster, and Carly V, who asked why people say rub some dirt in it when they are wounded. Maybe though, before you do that, you should wait for more research, or maybe perhaps you could become a soil scientist. You know what? Let us help you. A first time question asker, Natalie Gomez said, I've never asked a question before, but I've got a freaking soil science file coming up. Don't let me down, JK, they say. But they wanted to know what is the most important mineral element or ion found in soil. And they just watched a video that says we're going to run out of phosphorus

fertilizer in 40 or 50 years. So is there anything that we're seeing as a trend of, oh no, we're really screwed when it comes to farming because we're depleting this stuff? Yeah, I mean, phosphate is continuous to be one of the more depleted nutrients. So phosphorus has to be one. And that's something that was attributed a lot to big dust bowl types of processes. I would say anything that's like nitrogen, phosphate, and potassium are the big three, MPK. But I also think you're continuing to see more of the topsoil being eroded away. And also with building construction, a lot of the topsoil being lost, which has the majority of nutrients in it to how self-fulfilling ecosystems. And so actually, you see in the UK, they've started to make soil

health metrics, recognizing that we're losing topsoil at an alarming rate that can't be replenished. And I would love to see other countries in the world also fulfill some kind of plan of and thinking about topsoil long term. I think this kind of goes into, again, there are multiple ways to think and see soil. Many people think about it only as like a growth medium, as opposed to like an ecosystem that we can appreciate or how to repair an impacted and contaminated ecosystem. So for the purpose of the question, I would say MPK are the primary ones that we want to focus and worry about. But it also depends on your ecosystem. There are many, many ways to see soil, but what soil would Lydia stare at moonily? Many folks, including patrons, Daniel Solomon,

Nicole Kleinman, Steve Hansen, Charlotte Felcagard, or Jaya B17, first time question askers, Megan Matthews Adair and Lydia Baida, and another Lydia, Lydia Lam, all wanted to know what in this Lydia's opinion is the best soil? Does she have a favorite? So favorite soil. Oh, it's hard. I mean, there's like a texture, it's like a sand loam. I like those a lot. But if it's like a specific one, there is one where I grew up in New Mexico. It's like one of the places I love to go running. And it's this yellow sandstone. And it's called the Chifa Daro series. And it makes a really beautiful color pigment, this like bright yellow. But also, I love it's on an ancestral Pueblo, the Galastero basin. And I really love that it's called the

Chifa Daro because so in Spanish, that means like sucked, like sucker or sucked. And I guess it's just like this, this integration of like language. And it's right next to another soil series called Izia soil series, which is like this bright red color. And so it's this integration of like language and ancestral knowledge and the names of the soil series themselves, but then also like Chifa Daro is weathered away sandstone. And so it's like sucks of its sandstone material and weathered away. And I think that like, that name correlates so well with what the soil is and embodies and just knowing that the caretaking ethics of those particular soils in this ancestral Pueblo that has made all of this beautiful pottery is all embedded within that soil itself.

And I think that part is just really beautiful. So those are probably two of my favorites. Oh, that's awesome. And first time question asker Ingrid Zaragoza wanted to know if we can make a difference to our planet via carbon sequestration and changing our farming practices. And also, if you have an opinion, Caitlin Garofano wants to know on regenerative agriculture and trapping carbon, is that something we can do with soil? I need to say the evidence suggests, yes, that investing in soil health and building up soil carbon and being able to sequester it is a really important factor to addressing climate change. And there is a really great Ted talk on YouTube by Asmard Berhey, where she really talks about soil being the climate solution. So definitely

check it out because she speaks to it in a way that I could never. There's more carbon and soil than there is in all of the world's vegetation, including the lush tropical rainforests and the giant sequoias, the expansive grasslands, all of the cultivated systems, plus all the carbon that's currently up in the atmosphere combined and then twice over. So yes, check her out. And then in terms of regenerative agriculture, I do think it sounds it makes me really hopeful. I do want to highlight that many indigenous farmers have always done what is now renamed regenerative agriculture. And the Hopi Nation is one that comes to mind right away. Hopi and Pueblo farmers have had methods of regenerative agriculture. And I think this comes back to this methods and

means of wanting to live in reciprocal relationships with our environments as opposed to extracted ones. There's 1 million questions, but we're not going to get to them all. This just means if you have an interest in soil, go run with it, literally like Lydia did because there's so much intrigue in it. And let's see, just one last listener question. People wanted to know about safety and contact with dirt. What is clean dirt? Two people said, tell us about soil related fungal illnesses, like valley fever, et cetera, things like that. Yeah. Yeah. Valley fever is a huge one out here in the Sonoran Desert. I've been fortunate not to get it, but it's really common for people's dogs to get it. And I'm constantly afraid about that with my pet. So in terms of the safety, many

people, like when we're out field sampling, will wear masks. I think for myself, it's been checking out our state health, public health websites to see how common it is right now. So yes, head to the CDC for weekly reports on how many cases of coccidioidomycosis, aka valley fever, have been reported. In Arizona, you got a lot of copper and coccidioidomycosis, coccidioidomycosis. Them's the good news and the bad news. And if you have been in arid southwestern areas and you have lung symptoms like coughing or fever, sweats, fatigue, and maybe even a spotty red rash on your legs, maybe get checked out. It might totally resolve on its own, but my dear friend, Dr. Tegan Wall, who hails from Arizona, had to get part of her lung removed because

there was a fungal root ball in there from unchecked valley fever. Oh, and climate change with potentially wetter winters and drier summers is making it more widespread, not to freak you out. I know I just freaked you out. For myself, I'm more concerned about heavy metals in the soil. You have to think about the typical public health aspects of exposure time and exposure load, and that's different than having a fungal or microbial issue, right? So I think those are the two pieces that I think about in terms of soil health. Another part I think is just like thinking about in general, like collecting soils as a woman, soil scientists, safety. And when I did some field sampling in California, I did get chased by someone,

and let me tell you, carrying a four-gallon jug of mud in waders and running is not easy. So I think those are also elements that we want to be, and thinking about soil health, too, is I feel more comfortable with the soil than I do people. Oh, man. What happened with that? Did they chase you off of public land, their land? Did you yell back at them? Can I find them? And yell at them? Yeah, I mean, it was myself and another woman, we're collecting soil samples, and I don't know. Some guys were saying some kind of explicit things to us, and we got freaked out naturally because you're pretty vulnerable. You can be pretty vulnerable. We had these big sampling tubes, and I'm like, okay, we can hit someone with this. But the best thing to do is

just exit the situation. And so made our research group reevaluate some of the safety protocols. And so I think that was not the question that you were asking, and I apologize for taking a different introductory. But I think it's always just having a good head about you in the field, and I thought especially as an indigenous woman, in general, I think soil science is a really safe field, but there's always the human element. And just like I think, you know, thinking about soil fungus, there are different methods that we do to protect ourselves and being aware of like wearing the proper mask, the proper gloves, and those types of things. And the proper awareness. So yeah.

That actually, my next question was, what is the hardest thing about what you do? And is there anything about soil or about the work or about systems that is the hardest? Yeah, I mean, I think soil wise, the hardest and like the most challenging and also I think the most fun is like analyzing your data and pulling out the story of the data. And yeah, there are long days in the field and the lab to come back in process, particularly with microbes, right? Come back in process. And there are times where the first couple of years of my PhD, I was plating the microbes and you have to do the series dilutions. And it was like, I come back from like, you know, four days of heavy field work, and then have like four days where I was

three or four days where I was basically in the lab all day and all night if I could, right? Because you just don't want you want to get your microbes played as quickly as possible. I'm so tired. So that was just like really hard, energetically and like personally. But I think like also what's really fun is when you have all the data then to put it together and pick the story and figure out what the story of the data is telling us about its health about this landscape that you're studying. And I think that's beautiful and also really challenging because you want to make sure that you're not having any biases on that. In terms of the larger work that I do, you know, I think

for better or for worse, I've kind of made myself this, this, you know, my Twitter name is native soil nerd. And I think it's really important for me to talk about indigenous soil expertise, both historically in the present, but there, I don't want to speak for communities that I'm not part of or things that I don't know. You can see I'm really cautious about that in part because I think they're like, well, you're native, like, you're an expert in all of these things. And there are definitely things that I'm not. And I'm responsible to multiple communities. And all of those communities will hold me accountable if I misspeak. And so I think sometimes there is that is knowing how to pull strength and that accountability

and how to try to use your voice for the best. But like, also my community will tell me if I mess up. And that's like not, you know, having any auntie be like, why are you doing that? Is never an easy part of like the criticism, right? And so I think that is an important piece of the challenge of coexisting in multiple spaces and wanting to be responsible and appropriate in each of those spaces. So that's got to be a lot of effort to make sure that you are, you're doing right by everyone. Yeah. And I think sometimes it's just the best thing I can do is not speak on something in a way that someone else from my community speak who is more appropriate. And that's hard because also, like, there are different value systems associated with like

academic spaces and then indigenous community spaces, right? Or at least like my tribal nation community spaces. And so in some of those contexts, like there are not things I'm supposed to speak on, but like in academia, they're like, you get an expert and like, am I go? And also, but it's like hard. Am I is it because I'm feeling hesitation because I'm an early career academic, because I'm a minoritized woman in the academy. And so, you know, there are all those different layers that make up the onion that is Lydia. Lydia also recommends that people check out the American Indian Science and Engineering Society. That's at AISES.org. And that supports professionals in STEM fields through professional development, career opportunities and networking. Lydia says

that by showing up as herself, including making the time for important things like tribal ceremonies, she hopes she'll make it easier for other students and make them feel less isolated and give future mentors a better idea of how to make space for those kinds of experiences for students, especially since it can only broaden the scope and the impact of the science itself. What about your favorite thing about what you do? My favorite thing. I mean, I think so, like, I love teaching because you can talk about something when you see students like pick in there and like lights a light inside of them and they get excited. It's really amazing. And I also think teaching has made me feel so hopeful in a way

that like you read typical science, like climate science, literature, and that applies to soils as well. And it can be really depressing. But then you can constantly be so inspired by the students that you work with and know like the future is in good hands. And like they're going to have a lot to deal with. But there's so much passion and strength in these students. And I think that's what makes me feel really hopeful. Also, I just the other part is like working with really some of my collaborators are just doing such phenomenal work. And it's so awesome to be like, these are people I looked up to and now I'm my co-author is right. And I think like, I'm like, well, we're doing the work that those gaps that I always wish I had had as a student. And now we're

creating that. And, you know, one of the great things about being a scientist is like, you can write a good grant for and get it funded, you can study that. And I think, you know, you're never going to get bored in this line of work. You have a question, you can write a grant and get it funded and explore. And like, what a privilege that is, that that is your profession. So I think those are the things that make me feel really hopeful. And then what in doubt, I just go for a run with my dog and see how happy she is just to get out of the house. Like that's what also fills me with joy. So ask smart people the simplest questions and go paint with dirt, go smell the soil, watch a mining documentary on YouTube. It's none of my business. But do follow Indigenous

Pedologist Dr. Lydia Jennings on Twitter at one native soil nerd or on Instagram at llcooljennings. Or you can check out her website at nativesoylenerd.com. A donation went to risinghearts.org. And there'll be more links to all of that and info at alleyward.com slash oligies slash Indigenous Pedology, which is easily linked in the show notes for you too. We're at oligies on Twitter and Instagram. And I'm at alleyward with 1L on both. Thank you to all the patrons at patreon.com slash oligies. Thank you to everyone who has merged from oligiesmerged.com. Thank you, Aaron Talbert, who moderates the oligies podcast Facebook group with assists from sisters Bonnie Dutch and Shannon Feltis. Happy belated birthday, Lily Talbert too. Thank you to Emily White of

the Rotary, who makes our professional transcripts. Caleb Patton, who bleeps them. Those are up for free at alleyward.com slash oligies-extras. Thanks, Noel Dilworth, for all the scheduling and more and Susan Hale for being the best. We also have shorter classroom friendly cuts called Smologies up at alleyward.com slash Smologies or in this feed. Those are edited by Zeke Thomas Rodriguez and Mercedes Maitland. And many thanks to lead editors, Derrit Sleeper and Mercedes Maitland of Mind Jam Media. The theme song was written by Nick Thorburn. And if you stick around, I tell you a secret. And today's secret is that I started the morning with a very large Thai iced tea that I made at home with some Thai tea and some vanilla creamer. And I apologize to

all of Thailand for that, but it was delicious. Okay, goodbye. I will take a little sample of this to the lab for a soil analysis.