Ologies with Alie Ward - Lepidopterology (BUTTERFLIES & MOTHS) — Encore Presentation with Phil Torres

Episode Date: March 25, 2020

Since we just put out the "All (Washed) Hands on Deck" episode on Sunday, we figured a happy Springtime encore about fluttery, colorful cuties was in order -- with a few new updates and asides. Because ... Butterflies are gross. Yes they are delightful and beautiful and part of any idyllic picnic-scape but lepidopterologist, TV host and jungle explorer Phil Torres is here to gossip about how shamelessly disgusting our favorite bugs actually are. Learn their secrets, their mating habits, how they turn themselves into goo and then into another creature, what moth is the most goth, what flowers to plant to attract them, the scariest thing about the jungle and what it feels like to help discover new species. Also butterflies get sloppy drunk and we talk all about it. For more info, see: Phil-Torres.com Follow Phil on Twitter and Instagram and TikTok More info on the COVID-19 volunteer scientist database: https://tinyurl.com/COVID19SciVolunteers Sponsor links: hellofresh.com/ologies10; linkedin.com/ologies Donations went to Xerces.org & MealsonWheelsAmerica.org Follow Phil's inspiration, @AndyBugGuy, on Twitter Become a patron of Ologies for as little as a buck a month: www.Patreon.com/ologies OlogiesMerch.com has hats, shirts, pins, totes! Follow @Ologies on Twitter or Instagram Follow @AlieWard on Twitter or Instagram Transcripts & bleeped episodes at: alieward.com/ologies-extras Sound editing by Jarrett Sleeper of MindJam Media & Steven Ray Morris Theme song by Nick Thorburn More links at www.alieward.com/ologies/lepidopterologyencoreSupport the show: http://Patreon.com/ologies

Oh hey, it's old Dad Ward Vaughn podcast on the old mic. Hello from my closet per usual. So this week, the release schedule is a little wonky because I rushed to put up an episode on Sunday with Dr. Michael F. Wells, who has gathered well over 5,000 scientists willing to help with COVID-19 testing. And I wanted to get that episode up ASAP, so I put it up on Sunday. And there is a link to his Google form if you're anologist who wants to help out and his contact info in case you are somehow connected to a government agency that can hopefully use that database to ramp up testing in the US. There are also tons of self-help suggestions in that episode, ways to pitch in and help others. That's all in the all washed hands on deck episode. So if you're looking

for a fresh one, just go backwards one. So rather than double you up on two full new episodes this week, I thought I would have an encore presentation of a super spring and fluttery, goofy, happy episode that is also swear free in case you need to listen with a younger or an older set. I don't know. Although we do discuss some aspects of bugs making other bugs, if you know what I mean. But I love this episode. It's going to make you stop and look at the blossoms on your morning walks and appreciate all the beautiful, just disgusting creatures around you. Also, thank you to all the patrons at patreon.com slash oligies for making the show possible and making donations possible each week, even when I don't run ads. It was so fun to live stream with you a few days

ago that was very wacky just to hang out in my living room. So if you're not on patreon.com slash oligies, you are missing out on some very candid live streams. Also, thank you to everyone wearing oligies merch from oligiesmerch.com. Thanks to everyone who rates and subscribes and reviews that cost you $0. You're just keeping the show up in the science charts for other people to discover. Also, I have been feeling myself just a little extra stressed. I was really sad yesterday and your reviews honestly brightened my day so much. You have no idea. Maybe you do. Maybe you do have an idea because I pick a fresh one each week, like this one, like a creep and I read it to you. So thank you a flat-out who wrote, I'm currently working third shift disinfecting public

transit buses. The job is incredibly monotonous and would be unbearable if not for this podcast. So thanks to the pandemic and my new work assignment, I finally have time to catch up on my backlog of oligies. I guess everything really does happen for a reason, a flat-out says. Hey flat-out, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much for everything that you are doing right now to make this better. I hope you hear this. I hope you're listening and I hope you know how appreciated you are by me and everyone else listening. So thank you for cleaning the transit buses. We need you so much. Okay, on to the episode. This one first aired about two years ago and I've included some updates and surprises along the way. Okay, you ready for the rest of

the intro? Okay, here we go. Lepidopterology. What a word. So many syllables. You got to remember. You got to not mess up. But it's a study of butterflies and moths of the order Lepidoptera, which comes from Greek words for scale and wing. Very sexy. So this oligist I've known for almost five years, I think, which is crazy. But as a bug nerd, I saw some of his insect photos on Instagram and he's such a really, really good photographer. So I forced him to be my internet friend and then my in real life friend. And then we introduced each other to our other science friends and now we're all in a WhatsApp thread called Scorpions on Our Faces. We are the ones who field everyone's bug questions. And my only aim in life is to deliver insect IDs faster than him.

And it only works sometimes. And that's just because he's on a plane or he's shooting one of his several TV shows he works on and I'm able to get in before him and I look like a hero. You may have seen him on Animal Planet, Al Jazeera America's show Techno. He's been on the Discovery Channel and others. He's working on a new show. He also has a YouTube series called Aptly Jungle Diaries. So we sat down in LA while he was on the West Coast and I lobbed one million butterfly questions at his face. And we talked about the differences between mobs and butterflies. The most butterflies he's ever seen in one place and what children's toys are in his field kit and why he sniffs butterflies and the truly disgusting behaviors and preferences of the world's most fond over and

respected insects. They are disgusting. We talk about sex and mating. So slow down and perch on a flower and open your ears for some delightful facts and harrowing jungle tales. From one of my favorite entomologists, a guy I call Philly T. Exoskeletoris, Lepidopterologist Phil Torres. The butterflies are the best. It appears to be recording. This is your microphone. I feel like it's karaoke night. I know. It really feels like. This is great. Just you just hold it like you're doing a stand-up bit. Okay. So you point it at your face. Point it at your face. Philly T. Exoskeletoris. Thank you for being here. Happy to be here. Okay. So you are, by all accounts, a Lepidopterologist. Let's go with that. Yes. Backgrounds and entomology. And I focus a lot of my work on

butterflies because they're kind of the best. Why are they the best? I'm getting right into it. I mean, a lot of it has to do with going way back for me. So when I was a kid, I was out there bringing home bones and snakes and bugs and anything I could find from the local state park. And then I started taking these like butterfly classes as a kid when I was seven years old. And this guy, Dr. Andy Warren, who's now the collections manager at University of Florida, he's like amazing butterfly researcher. He taught these classes and he was in high school at the time. I was seven years old and I was learning about how to collect them, how to mount them, how to identify them, how to collect, like store the right data. And it was a blast. And we were

out there. I remember when I was eight, me and this kid next to me were running after this thing, the Gulf Fritillary. The Gulf Fritillary, by the way, is this cute little orangey umber and dark brown butterfly. And the underside of its wings have these crazy gorgeous metallic silvery patches. So from the top, it looks like the palette for a Thanksgiving tablescape. But on the underside, it has markings like a Lady Gaga Super Bowl costume from the future. Anyway, Gulf Fritillary. And he caught it. I missed it. But it was like the first state record ever recorded in Colorado. And I'm like, okay, if we can do that at this age, imagine what we can do when I'm like a real human and an adult. Because the eight year olds are not real. They're not. Let's be honest here.

What happened when he caught it? Were you like, oh, congratulations, ouch. I mean, I think it was just, it was all excitement. It was, it was pretty, there's probably some high fives, you know, I don't know what the cool word was back then, but it's probably rad. Probably rad. I don't know. I was eight. Yeah, okay. It's a big word. Fission is a big word. Does Dr. Andy Warren, are you guys still, are you pals? Totally. We're totally pals still and it's great. So you two can digitally befriend Andy Warren, the Lepidopterologist who inspired Phil. He is at AndyBugGuy on Twitter. So you can have at it. Andy will probably be confused about the sudden spike in his timeline, but it is a lovely buffet

of butterfly and moth photos. Totally worth it. Gently stalk him. But yeah, actually I talked to him about getting on Twitter and now he's just like killing the game. And if you have any butterfly questions, he just, he knows it. He knows everything. So he's like the grandmaster and I'm like his understudy. And so I know, because I know that you answer a lot of questions when it comes to butterflies. I do. I can't help it. I mean, is it harder for you to answer a question of like, what is this caterpillar versus what is this butterfly? It is. I mean, you, you tend to spend more time working on, at least for me, working on the adult

and memorizing the different species and knowing where they're found and all that kind of thing. And the caterpillars can be a little trickier. Some are more obvious than others. You know that if it looks like bird poop, then it's probably a swallowtail caterpillar. Is that true? That is true. Yeah. A lot of the, the younger end stars, they will mimic bird poop so well. Oh, that's so smart. On a citrus tree, especially. So if you are like smelling a nice orange and you see some bird poop crawling around, you'd be like, wait a second, that might be a swallowtail butterfly. What's worse than roving bird poop? And they're like, surprise, how did you get a caterpillar?

Side note, if you are like, what is this in star business? Don't worry. As much as I have been a bug lover for the years, I just learned this word recently. I didn't know it. It just means the different stages, like in this case, caterpillars. So they just keep molting into a larger size until they're ready to pupate. So imagine kind of like a Russian nesting doll situation, but squishy. And at the very last stage, they turn into a purse. And then out of the purse pops a kite or a drone. And you're like, what kind of crazy witchcraft magic is this? Speaking of progressions. So let's talk about your path. Okay. At what point did you decide you were going to study entomology and butterflies?

I was 11 years old. And I had to write a paper in middle school saying, what do you want to do when you grow up? And I was like, I want to study entomology at Cornell. And that's what, because that's where Andy went to study as well. And it's just the best undergrad program that I'd found. And it was, it was amazing. And I was just like, this is what I want to do. Because he would tell these stories of, you know, he just came back from South Africa and discovered species a month in Brazil and all these places around the world. So I was like, okay, there was a job out there. You get to chase after things with a butterfly net, make real discoveries and explore the world. And that just sounds like a blast. Not to mention you get to like, have fun

doing it. Like you make bait traps that smell terrible. And it's just like stuff that kids love. And I was like, I just want to stick with this for forever. How many countries do you think you've been to in a quest to look at butterflies and bugs and snakes? Sticks and bones? I don't know, maybe like 15 or so. Phil has traveled through most of Latin America, Mongolia, he's done work in Europe, the dude has some frequent flyer miles. You get around. And that's, that's really what drew me to science in general is just this idea that, I mean, it's been a really nice career that I think I did my first expedition when I was 19 years old and worked with a grad student and we spent three

and a half weeks in Venezuela and found 35 new species. When you were not 20 yet, you could not rent a car. You were six years from renting a car and you discovered how many new species? 35 on this trip. I mean, it was, he was like really the guy who could look at it. We were studying aquatic beetles at the time. As you do. And it was so cool. And a lot of them were, this is in Venezuela, a lot of these beetles, this one, genus Ucyclus lives on the side of waterfalls. And that's where it specializes. So like imagine being 19 and being like, okay, I guess we're gonna have to travel throughout this beautiful country looking for waterfalls to discover things. And I had so many moments when I was young that I was like, yes, this was the

right choice because the experiences I got, not just with nature and discovery, but also the humans you meet in these places were amazing. Phil had an experience growing up that always stuck with him. And I'm going to say right up top, it involved travel and butterflies, which you're going to find is a recurring theme in Phil's life. And thus, this episode, by the time it's over, I'm just going to warn you, you're going to be cramming a butterfly net in a steamer trunk and flipping your boss off on your way out the door, like bye. Bye. I'm off. This episode will inspire you to wreck your life. It's going to be great. Anyway, okay. So my dad's family's from Nicaragua. And when I was 13, I can't remember if I was 13 or

15 at the time. We did two trips as a kid. I reached out to the lead entomologist in Nicaragua saying, hey, I'm coming down. I kind of know what I'm doing. Can I get a permit to collect butterflies and I'll send you photos and kind of we can ID them together. And he was like, sure. And I was like, sweet, let's go find some butterflies. So we were there visiting family, but then I was like, okay, we have to go to this really remote rainforest in one area down by the border of Costa Rica. Then we went up into this volcano called Mombacho for 1.2. And I caught this one butterfly. They're called glass wing butterflies. And they're beautiful because they're kind of transparent and just really interesting. Just a note to say that a glass wing is super weird to

look at. It's just as it sounds. Most of the wings are totally see through. Like it's wearing an invisibility cloak. You can see right through its body. It looks like it exists, but it doesn't. And whenever I see photos of them and I was just looking at a bunch of them, I always get like these weird kind of goosebumps and like a squeaky feeling in my tumours, like a vertigo. Like how are you a mostly transparent animal? Anyway, so Phil found a really cool one. Butterfly usually find at higher elevation or shadier areas in the tropics. And I went home, mounted this butterfly, put the location data, all that kind of thing. And then a few months later, my uncle who lives down there sent us a newspaper article saying, hey, new species of butterfly

has been collected on this volcano Mombacho. And there's only three specimens that have ever been found. And then I looked at my collection. I was like, oh my gosh, I have the fourth one. And I was like a teenager. And I was just on this family trip. And so it was another one of those moments where I'm like, holy, like, if I just did this right now, because there's so few people out there appreciating these things, imagine what else I can do if I make a career out of this. And it's called napiogenes, Tulosa Mombachoensis. That's quite a mouthful. Mombacho part, that's the subspecies found on that volcano Mombacho. What does the whole name mean? Do you know?

I don't know, napiogenes, Tulosa Mombachoensis. Tulosa is my guess. I don't know. Yeah, let's look it up. We can dig into this. I wonder. We'll get the truth. I want you to know that your old dad tried real hard to find the meaning of this scientific name. And I just plumb struck out, kiddos. It was named in 1851 by an entomologist. And I just, I have no idea what it means, fam. I have no idea. You know what? Let's back up. Let's just back up. Let's get to some easier questions first, okay? So let's define a butterfly. Okay. So I know what a butterfly looks like, but what's the difference between a butterfly and a

moth? What's the difference between a butterfly and another winged insect? What are we, what makes it a Lepidopterology? So Lepidoptera translates as like scaly wing. So that's one of the number one things. You look at those wings and they're covered in little tiny scales and that's how they get their color. And that color can be really brilliant and colorful or it can be drab and brown and it kind of depends on the thing. So butterflies get a lot of the glory because we see them more often because they're diurnal. Wait, what does that word again? Diurnal. FYI, I avoid this word a lot because I'm afraid of saying it wrong and also it sounds like a P toilet, but it just means not nocturnal. So butterflies awake during the day, which is more

than I can say for myself sometimes. And they're just prettier, but really butterflies are a type of day flying moth. That's so weird. So when we look at the family tree, there's like moth, moth, butterfly, moth, moth, moth. And they're kind of considered and amongst most people as like butterflies on the left and moths on the right. But really it's this branch of moths that evolved into this super family, Papillionoidia, that has really done well during the day. Diurnal. And that's why it has all these bright colors because those colors help it camouflage or identify a mate or to show that it's poisonous if it has like bright orange and yellow and black colors or to mimic something that is poisonous. And they're great. So to tell the difference

between moth and butterfly, color is one thing. Also look at the way they rest. So a moth generally has its wings folded down when it's resting and a butterfly generally has its wings folded up, tucked behind it when it's resting. All right. So it's like a stealth fighter versus a sailboat? Yes. That is great. I'm going to use that. You are welcome. Please cite me in all of your papers. So butterflies are up. Typically, there are some that break the rules. The rule that basically is never broken is looking at the antenna. So a butterfly, imagine, you know, you have these two long stalks at the top or two long, you know, things sticking out. And then at the very end, it gets a little thick, a little club. If it's got like a club at the end, you were talking about

a butterfly here. If it's straight or feathery, we're talking about a moth. Okay. And do they have wildly different eyesight or wildly different like olfactory senses? Eyesight for sure. Butterflies, anything that's flying by day, there are moths that fly by day as well. They're going to be very visual. So they're looking for brightly colored flowers that are telling them, Hey, we've got some nectar for you. They're looking for conspecifics, others of the same species to figure out if they want to mate or chase them out of their territory. They're looking for predators flying around. They have pretty decent vision to look for anything swooping at them. And you learn that when you're trying to catch them with a butterfly net. They're very

tricky sometimes. Is that an exercise to have a butterfly net? It is very good exercise. Yes. It's the real jungle gym. When you're out there in the rainforest and you're swinging these things, it's tricky. Some species are way easier to catch and they're kind of low flying and just flopping around. And then others are just, they're like jet fighters. They're really tough, really agile. And they're really tricky, which is why sometimes bait traps do the trick. Oh, because I've seen a video of you in your YouTube series, the jungle diaries, where you have the world's longest butterfly net. Oh yeah. How long is it and how heavy is that? Because you've got to get up in the canopy, right? Yes. I was working with my friend Dr. Susan Finkbeiner. Phil and Dr. Finkbeiner went to

Cornell together and she's now one of the top butterfly researchers ever in the world. She's super tough. She works deep in the jungle and she uses, this is nuts, the longest butterfly net available possibly on the open market to catch butterflies in the rainforest canopy. It extends 35 feet. It's a 35 foot long net. I looked all over for it on the internet. I couldn't even find one to see how much they cost. I think she had to build it herself. Anyway, Phil was like, I'm a buff dude. I can do that also. No, this was not his verbatim thoughts. I just editorialized them. Anyway, he was like, I got this. Teach me how to use it. I'm going to look just like you. It didn't pan out that way. We have to hike up this crazy stream. It was an amazing place to

work. That's her office every day. Pretty great. But then you open up the butterfly net and I couldn't even, I could barely hold the thing. It looks so heavy. It's like a clown car. You just keep extending and extending. Extending it. My arm got tired. I was like, is there a button we can press that this thing happens? Holding it, you have to stabilize with your foot and then swinging it and swinging it accurately was a whole other level. But it was a blast. Every time I do something like that, I'm like, this is such a fun job. Studying butterflies, you just get to do these crazy things like swing 35 foot nets in the middle of the jungle. What about the bait traps? If you're like, my arm is too tired, I'm going to put out

a pile of dung and see what happens. Is that what happens? Because you mentioned they were smelly. They are smelly. So bait traps, you get creative. And so sometimes you will use a banana bait trap. And this is pretty typical throughout the tribe because you get bananas, you add some water, maybe some sugar, maybe some beer, and then you close it up and you let it ferment for a few days. You open it up. If it smells nice and ripe and like you don't want to be anywhere near it, then you got some good bait. And then you set it in a little cup and in this kind of like cylinder net thing, it'll be floating below the cylinder net thing. And so the butterfly feeds on the bait and then flies up. And when they fly up, they get caught in that net.

So that's like the most PG-13 version of a butterfly bait. But then you get a little interesting and we will use rotten fish. So we will ferment like tuna cans. And that was horrible. We will add human urine to it. Hell yeah. And that doesn't make it any better. And then you can also use poop. Anything in particular? Generally carnivore poops. If you're vegan, I'm sorry, but your poop probably won't cut it. If you are a carnivore, you have enough, you've got some like good sodium and maybe even some nitrogen they might be going for in there. And so I always joke that I mean, seeing a jaguar in the wild is an amazing thing. And knowing that they're around finding images of them on camera traps is great. But what I'm after is jaguar poop. Because when

you find jaguar poop, you will see some of the rarest butterflies that generally are only found way up on the canopy, but they will come down to the ground to feed on that steamy pile of goods. And that's just it. There's all these rare resources out there. And so if you make a bait that smells like a rare resource like pee or rotten fish or rotten fruit, then the butterflies will come. I love that the most PG-13 version of this is something that has to do with beer. Like it gets so gross from there that the most innocent thing is putting out beer for butterflies. It is. And you're fermenting this fruit, right? Which is how you make alcohol in the first place. So it becomes slightly alcoholic and you actually kind of see that these butterflies get a little

drunk. Is that true? It is very true. How can you tell? They're just like getting in barfights and stuff there. Tattoo. Now you can actually discern which butterflies become inebriated on fermenting fruit if you look super closely. Because on some specimens, you can see a really small tattoo of a human on the lower back of the butterfly. So the love is very mutual. They love us too. P.S. if you'd like a rabbit hole to go down, type in drunk butterflies on YouTube and you're going to find some gems like this one from Anna girl empath. His tongue's all curled again. So he's not eating. He's just kind of chilling. So we may both be suckers for getting schmammern on a hooch, but a butterfly brain is a little different than ours. They have a lump of ganglia

and the head to control the eyes and the antennae and the coiled birthday party horn of a proboscis. But it also extends down their body. Their brain goes all the way down their body to help their back end make decisions, which honestly would be very helpful in humans, especially drunk ones. But yes, they can get a little drunk like us. What? Okay. Well, this brings me to a question. If they can drink and eat, how many moths, how many butterflies actually eat as adults? Because don't a lot of them just chub it up when they're bibbous and they're done. They're like, as I'm an adult, all I want to do is mate. Caterpillars are just big feeding tubes. Okay. And they just eat and eat and eat and they just try to grow into a thing that will then

turn into a chrysalis or cocoon and then turn into an adult. So some species feed as adults and live a little longer so that they can have a better chance of finding a mate, maybe a few mates. Hey, other species don't live as long. And thus they don't even bother growing mouths, which is like, hello, American Horror Story butterfly season. They don't have mouth parts because they ate a bunch as a chubby caterpillar and now they're like, I just got a mate. So with them, it is a pheromone. Now, butterflies are pheromones too, but with moths, it can be way stronger. So if you take a female silk moth, a big, let's say, Luna moth and you stick it in, you know, kind of a mesh, whatever, mesh bag,

she will release this pheromone out into the world. And if you wait all night, that thing will have like a dozen males that have tracked it down. And the way they do it is they have the males have these big feathery antennae that are super, super sensitive. They can detect like a single molecule from like two miles away. And they'll be like, there's a female around here. Let's find her. And they do kind of a zigzag pattern to triangulate and to figure out where she is. And then when they find her, they know that they got something to do and they try to mate. How pissed were they that she was in a mesh bag? They were so pissed.

They're like, I came this whole way and she's like, sorry, I'm in a bag tonight. Maybe tomorrow. Now, how is it different for butterflies? How do they find each other just by peeping each other on a flower? Like, hey, I saw you on the flower back there. You look very good. Yeah, it'll be a visual thing usually because they have colors that we can see and also UV colors as well. And then from a close distance, it will oftentimes be a mix of behavior and smell. Okay. So certain species males will defend a territory and wait for a female to come by. Other times

they'll be cruising around looking for females. So that kind of makes a difference. But then up close, butterflies too have a pheromone. And the best thing about butterfly mating is that their pheromones smell really, really good. Super good. Is this just a personal fetish from a lepidopterologist or would you say? It's a little bit. But so when I was in Peru a couple of months ago, we found this one butterfly and it was on butterfly sleep underneath leaves in the tropics. So if you're walking around at night and you shine lights underneath leaves, you'll see a little butterfly tucked in. And so you can catch them in a way that they're totally not harmed, open up their wings and give it a

sniff. And if it's a male in certain groups, I passed this around 10 out of 10 people were like, this smells exactly like brownie batter. Why brownie batter? Like not even cooked brownies. We're talking the batter. This is so different. And I think it's just, it's a mix of incidental that it smells like that. And also this group is known to feed on plants like banana and certain plants that may have some chemicals in them that are volatile and smell nice. And so when the caterpillar eats it gets into the adult. And so these chemicals have taken a long journey and they have components in them that are kind of like fruit like or food

like and it's, it's delicious. And so there's some that smell like that. There's some that smell exactly like maple syrup, some that smell like cake, some that smell like barbecue potato chips. That's so specific. So if you guys ever catch a butterfly, please, please smell it and let me know the black swallow tails that you get around here. Actually, the tiger swallow tails as well, the males in the U.S. smell like fruit loops, like exactly like fruit loops. Well, how did you discover this? Is this a thing that lipidopterologists know about? They know. And they kind of pass on. I think I probably sniff more than other lipidopterologists,

but I just like using my nose. I think it's, it is, when you work a lot with animals or when you work a lot in the jungle, you start to use your senses a lot more and not in like a, like be one with the earth way. It's just like you do because you notice, okay, if you want to find monkeys in the jungle, you don't crane your neck looking up, you use your ears and you'll hear a little crash and you know, okay, that's a big crash. That's a cappuccino. If it's like a running crash and that might be a spider monkey or something, you start to use your ears different. And then also your nose because those resources like fermented fruit, if you are near a fruiting tree and you smell fermented fruit, you'd be like, oh, there could be good butterflies over here.

Or dead animals too, can attract certain things. Or maybe you find a really cool dead animal that just died of natural causes. Like I found, my first sloth was a sloth with a big bite out of it from like an ocelot or something. But I was like, how cool is this? And so we used a machete and cut off its head and then preserved its head in a way that we got the skull. And then we were able to take that around the local schools in Ecuador and show them a sloth skull and teach them about it. And sloth teeth do not mess around. They may be slow, but they got sharp teeth for cutting through. Seriously? Yeah. I just want to interject to tell you that sloth skulls, I just looked it up, they look kind of like a softball wearing dentures plus plastic Halloween vampire teeth.

And they are cute as hell. What's the grossest thing that's happened to you in the jungle? You just talked about beheading a dead rotting sloth. Yeah. Which I can't imagine, like the whack with the machete that must have been. Yeah, I've done it with a dead Puma too. I don't know. It's pretty gross, but you start to get a little, it's like sad to see the dead things for sure. But you kind of realize like, oh, we can take this death and make something out of it. And I think skulls and bones are great educational tools. And so you just do what you got to do. Have you ever been really, really scared in the field? Yeah. For sure. I definitely do get scared sometimes. And I think that's okay. And one thing that helps is basically just to

focus on my work. If I'm out there at night, sometimes I'll hike alone, which you probably shouldn't do. I just really focus on, okay, what is my target that I'm looking for? If it's a spider or sleeping butterfly or anything like that. The main thing, I don't know, we call it the jungle scards. Okay. That is like our term that we created where if you're out there, especially at night in the jungle, even if you're with a group during a survey, sometimes you just get this creepy feeling that like you could turn and your headlamp would look out and there'd be a jaguar just like glaring back at you with glowing eyes. And that would be really scary. So we call that the jungle scards where like your mind kind of gets away from you.

Okay. But Phil's greatest fear in the jungle just shocked the socks off me. This is not what I was expecting. Wait till you hear this. I just click baited you in my own podcast, but seriously, you won't believe what this entomologist fears most in the rainforest. My biggest fear in the jungle is trees. What? Trees. Why? Because they weigh so much. That's true. And tree falls are a very natural part of the cycle of the rainforest. About 2 to 3% of the rainforest is in the tree fall zone at any moment. And every single day when you're in the jungle, you were here at some point, a big like sometimes you feel the earth shake because a tree that could weigh a few thousand pounds just fell and not only did it fall, but there's vines

everywhere. So it took a bunch of trees next to it down and you can have this huge area cleared out that if you are anywhere near, there's not a whole lot you can do. And there was one time in Peru that I was out hiking. I was about a mile from base camp and I hear this crazy loud storm come in. I mean, it sounded like a train was coming. I never heard anything like that. And then the wind started and that is your biggest danger when it comes to trees. It's rain and wind because that's what will take them down. And I just started, I mean, I started here and trees come down, branches started falling. So I turned and sprinted back. I've never sprinted a full mile. Probably did like a four minute 55 second mile. And there was literally, I mean, we're talking 600, 400 pound

branches falling to my left and right. A giant tree started falling in the trail in front of me and I had to kind of stop and then I ran underneath it. And it was like crazy Indiana Jones moment where I was like, where's my hat that I dropped? And yeah, I got back and I just, you don't mess around with that kind of thing. And so there's a lot of times that I've had to cancel hikes if rain is too high or wind is too high because you just don't want to risk it. And I've had friends that have left their bags somewhere and they come back, you know, an hour later and that bag is smashed by a giant branch that fell from the sky. And so it can just happen. I never knew. I never considered this. I never, I thought maybe you could fall into a pit of alligators, but I never for sure

trees. Yeah. You know, the animals, at least in the, the new world tropics. So central, South America, generally you're, you're pretty okay with most of the things that are down there. There are some other tropics where you have other animals you need to be concerned about, but usually where I work, you're pretty good. Just don't get hit by a tree. I have a question about gifts. Okay. So I know that if you, let's say that you really like pigs or dragons or, or a yachting or something, you get a lot of gifts with that. Do you get a lot of butterfly and mop gifts? I do. I do. And I'm, I'm okay with it because I remember somebody got me like a little kitty, you know, is one of those like bug chamber things, like a little fold out

thing that is aimed at judging by the font, probably aimed at like seven, eight year olds. Okay. And I was like, this thing's dope. And I carried around my backpack in the field for like two years and I used it all the time when I found something cool and I wanted to stick it in there and be like, this thing's collapsible. How great is this? And he didn't make this for adults too. I look this up and they're like five bucks on the internet or in a toy store and they look like tiny mesh collapsible laundry hampers that zip down flat. So you can keep a bug catcher in your purse or pocket at all times, like a six year old who might just need to hang out with a cricket or a firefly for a little bit. It's chill. And also my favorite thing about gifts and butterflies

are the gifts that butterflies give each other. Such as for example. So it's called a nuptial gift. Oh, God. When you're, when let's say you love a, you love a female butterfly and you're like, what do I do to impress her? Oh no. So sometimes that tactic will be finding a source of sodium. Whether that be in mud or, you know, piss or dead animal or jaguar poop, you get that sodium in you and then you make a sperm packet. This thing called a sperm out of four and you inject the whole thing into there. So you're giving her sperm and salt. Wait a second. So you're giving her like a gift basket. Yeah. That has your G is and then also just like a salt. A salt junk. Are you serious? Yes. And it's because salt is, is generally pretty rare

out there. Plants don't have a lot of salt cause it's poisonous to them. And so the males kind of say, Hey, you're going to need this to make some nice eggs and for our babies to be happy together. So they give her some salt, but there's also my favorite nuptial gift is poison. What? Yes. That sucks. Although I guess when you buy someone a drink at a bar, you're technically giving them poison. That's right. You're like, here's the poison. Let's have a boy. So there's this group of the glass wing butterflies and they are naturally chemically defended by the, what they eat as a caterpillar. So they have a certain type of, I think it's a cardinolide toxin in them that makes them toxic to most things like birds,

but spiders can still eat them and some other predators can still eat them. So they need to get another toxin as an adult, but only the males do it. So there's certain flowers out there that you will very rarely find. So when you do find them, you will find a swarm of like 30 males of a bunch of different species all drinking up this nectar of these rare flowers to become poisonous themselves. Oh my God. And they hold on to that poison until they mate. And then when they're poisonous, that means that they're defended from things that would try to eat them. And people scientists have done tests and found that spiders will reject eating them if they have drank from these flowers. Do they take a chop and they're like, oh, hell no.

Yeah. The spiders somehow detect it and other predators somehow detect it or they've learned and yeah. And so they hold on to it until they mate because the female doesn't go for those flowers. She's busy just being a female flying around. And so when he mates, he gives her sperm, but he also gives her that poison. I think he gives about 50% of what he has to the female. Oh my God. And then he says, here's the gift of poison. PS, now you're protected for life. And it's like, it sounds kind of crazy to give that, but it doesn't even stop there because then the eggs that she lays have like a thin layer of this poison on them too and protects them from things like parasitoids that would inject, you know, eggs into those eggs. And so there, it's,

it's pretty cool thing that you can watch these butterflies swarm around this flower knowing they're after a single chemical here that is going to go into a female when they mate and then into an egg when she lays eggs. That's so romantic. It is. But I do not recommend giving the gift of poison. Public disclaimer right now. Alcohol and perfume, both poisonous. That is true. That is true. You've told me before and I would like you to expound upon this, but that butterflies are disgusting. They are horribly disgusting. In what way? Because they're so beautiful. They are beautiful, but they're disgusting, you guys. And you find this out when you just spend enough time with them and it's, I find it hilarious. Every time I see them do something even grosser,

I'm just like, wow, you do not stop. So let's talk about, we're on the topic of mating. Let's talk about mating. They do things like they have sperm plugs. And when they mate with a female, they plug her up and say, no more males inside you. It's, it's kind of gross. They also have some hooks sometimes that will like hook out the sperm from the previous male and stick their own sperm in there. They'll clean you out like a pipe cleaner. It is messy. Yeah. Insect genitalia can be pretty crazy. They feed on dead animals. I've seen some of the rarest butterflies feeding on dead animals that smell horrible. Those pictures don't make sense to me because like a butterfly is a thing that's like on a Mother's Day card. Yeah. But it's also on a rotting carcass. Yeah.

We need to make some new Mother's Day cards to be like, I love you, mom. Here's a dead animal. But look at the beautiful butterfly in that little corner. It's there. Meggots. Yes. So they feed on dead animals. They love poop, all sorts of poop, especially if you eat some meat in there. They will get drunk. Another thing I've seen. So a lot of it is, is to get rare resources. So when it comes to sodium, I one time had a butterfly that landed on my finger and I was like, oh, this is really nice. And I was looking at what it was doing and it was drinking the sweat off my finger. Sweaty fingers? Sweaty, sweaty fingers. When you're out there, trust me, your fingers get sweaty. I don't want to, yeah, it's gross. But after a while, my sweat dried. But

the butterfly still wanted to get that salt that was on my finger. So what did it do? It would pee on my finger and then turn around and drink up that pee. Because that basically that pee, that liquid would absorb the little salt crystals and make it into a salty solution. And then it would turn around and drink it up. So I would just watch it basically pee, turn around, drink, pee, turn around, drink on my finger. And I was like, you disgusting creature. You're lucky, you're beautiful. So that's like if a mountain do dried and you're like, I don't want a way to rehydrate it. So gross. Super gross. Do you like that about butterflies that they have such a beautiful public image but are like secretly super nasty? Yeah. I mean,

there's so much more interesting than people give them credit for. And in the entomology world, people like to give each other a little bit of crap, depending on what you study. And they'll be like, oh, you study micromoths, you must be weird. And but butterflies seem like the easiest, most approachable insect to most people. So I think some entomologists will be like, just kind of like doggone people who study butterflies because like, oh, like, of course, you study them because they're so pretty. I study these things that are horrible looking. Yeah, like weird bot flies and like many toothed saber maggots. Exactly. I love those saber maggots. So okay, saber maggots are not real, but bot flies are very real and they will lay a baby

in your skin, which hatches out like a little wormy surprise, jumping out of a birthday cake. And entomologists, they brag about getting bot-flied. Like Phil has expressed to me before, his chagrin and dismay and never having had one of these little moist miniature alien-esque beings burst from his flesh. But one day, Phil, one day you'll get one. Oh, okay, quick update. So Phil finally got his first bot fly. It was just about a year ago. It was good gnarly. It was just a weeping, chewing, squirming baby maggot in his back. He made videos about it on his Jungle Diaries YouTube channel. You can go back and find him. Also, as long as you're following him, he does ace nature content on his TikTok these days, including some breathtaking slow mo he

just posted today. He rigged up with an iPhone and a hummingbird feeder. It's going to make your whole day and every day feels like a month lately. So it's going to make your whole month. And so we came up with an expression when I was working in Ecuador. We said only tough guys catch butterflies because they're just very complicated. They do gross things. They have really interesting behaviors. They're really good model to study. And you have to be really tough to get out there and study these things. Yeah, you can fall into a volcano chasing an invisible butterfly. And then the jungle is a tangle of dangers and beauty and mystery. And not to mention there is the ever present mystery of transformation that I feel like that is one thing that just boggles everyone

about butterflies that they are capable of such an extreme makeover. Such a rebranding. What is happening when you have a chubby caterpillar, you have a tube of guts, and then it pieces out, is like catch you later, gone fishing, and then it comes out as a different creature. I've heard that they have the same memories and the same aversions. I think there have been some studies that have showed that, yes, some of those memories and a versions can last into an adult. Some people think that they entirely turn to goo inside and then just reform. They don't entirely. There are still some parts that remain. These things called imaginal discs that have been with them for a long time. And actually inside some late in star

caterpillars, meaning they're very mature caterpillars about to pupate, you will actually have little bits of butterfly in them. So they're already starting to change before they get in there. And then they get in there. A lot of them goes down, but the imaginal disc will turn into things like their eyes or their wings and that kind of thing. And so it is a lot of work and it is really amazing. But there's some people out there, our friend Aaron Palmerance is an example of somebody who has figured out a way to cut a little window into a pupa. And then you can actually watch what happens on the inside. That's crazy. How the hell does he do that? Just a very tiny knife. And a lot of patience. Is some saran wrap? Yes. And so you can actually see what's going on inside.

So scientists have a pretty cool idea. They've done like MRIs or crazy scans on them to watch this transformation over time. But it is, I mean, there are a lot of things in nature that just blow your mind. And that is something that is happening every day around the world. And every kid has done, you know, a lot of kids grow caterpillars into adult butterflies. And that stage is truly impressive and really wild. Now the DNA is the same, right? Is a DNA expression changing? Like how does, I just have no idea how it works. Yeah. So yeah, there will be genes that get expressed differently. It is fascinating how some of the genes will turn on at different times of their life or turn off at different times of their life. And it's all stored in that same

nucleus. I mean, their DNA has all the information to do all of these things throughout its life. And now can you tell me the difference between a cocoon and a chrysalis? Because I know that those things get used a lot. Yeah. Wrongly. And does it piss you off? It doesn't piss me off because I mess it up sometimes too. Okay. And but just don't do it. Okay. If you're listening at home, it's going to start to piss me off now because you've heard me explain it. So chrysalis is what a butterfly creates. Okay. And it's just a single little wrapping on the outside and they're right on the inside there. So you can actually see their abdomen still. You can kind of see the wings a little bit in there. And you

can if you poke it, it'll wriggle a little bit. And so that is a chrysalis. A cocoon has a pupa inside. Okay. So that pupa is basically equivalent to the chrysalis where it is everything self-contained right there. But the cocoon is this silky thing wrapped around the pupa. And that's what a lot of moths will do is they make a cocoon and they take they make little silk or they'll use their hairs on the body and they make a little protective thing. And then inside that protective thing, they will pupate. They will spend the winter as a cocoon and then hatch in the spring. And so that layer of protection that the cocoon creates allows them to survive and, you know, withstand the elements and that kind of thing. And a lot of times when they change from one instar to the when they upgrade

their instar and they get a little chubbier, they don't they eat their skin? I seem to remember that when I was volunteering at the butterfly. Yep. They will especially when the hatch, they'll eat their egg. Remember when I was talking about those instars, those like Russian nesting dolls? So caterpillars will molt into the bigger size, kind of like they're unzipping their skin like a sleeping bag. And then unlike a sleeping bag, they'll eat it after. It'll just nom nom nom it up because it's made out of them and they need to make more of themself. So they just use that raw material. I was so enthused to learn this fact in a museum volunteer seminar about butterflies. But quite frankly, I was more amused to look up at the presenter's PowerPoint and see that on their

computer desktop, they'd labeled the butterfly keynote folder, but stuff. I think of that often and it makes my day. Also, thank you to patrons and sponsors of the show for making it possible to donate to a cause of theologist's choosing each week. And this week, a donation is going to go to the Xerxes Society. That's at Xerxes.org. You're going to hear more about them later in the show. You're going to be like, wow, Xerxes.org. I like you a lot. So we donated to them. Also, I just texted Phil to see if he has a COVID-19 related charity he wants to donate to. And he chose Meals on Wheels, which is providing food and home checks and gift baskets and even just notes to seniors during this not easy time. And they are at MealsOnWheelsAmerica.org.

Great choice, Phil. So those donations were made possible by sponsors of the show. We may hear about now. All right. So let's answer some friggin' questions. Thanks, patrons, for sending these in. You ready? Why am I singing? I am so excited. Are you ready for a rapid fire round? Oh, goodness. Hit me. I got so many questions. Okay. Over 40. But I'm going to try and blaze through. You don't have to do rapid fire, but we got a lot. So just... Challenge accepted. You ready? Let's go. Oh, my goodness. There's a butterfly time. Brian Edge wants to know, why are they not called Flutterbys? You know, let's start a public campaign and change this. Let's do it. All right. Flutterbys is just be what they're called. Yeah. So I think the name butterfly comes from... There's a few theories,

but supposedly this came from like Europe or England or something where one of the common butterflies around there is a sulfur, which is kind of yellowy and it looks like butterfly. But that might just be people these days being like, this makes sense. Let's say that that's the case. But it's... So yeah, that is why. Okay. I'm going to look into that. Yeah. Because that's really cute. It is very cute. Look at that butterfly. Let's call it a butterfly. Damn cute. So quick fact check on this. It's split. Some folks think butterfly came from a butterfly, meaning to beat fly as the wings beat. But honestly, I prefer the alternate entomology, which is that they're named after floating paths of fat. Also, the German word for butterfly translates to thief of dairy protein

or butter liquor. Or people also think it could be because they excrete a yellowish substance that looks like melted butter. The Dutch for butterfly translates to buttercrapper. So between milk liquor and butterpooper, you now have so many friendly, low-key insults in your arsenal. No arse pun intended there. Clark Rake wants to know, growing up, it seemed like there was an abundance of butterflies through the summers. Monarchs especially. These days, I'm lucky to spot even one through the summers. Is this just a drop? Is it my region, Ontario, or is there a real population decline? There is a real population decline. And when it comes to conservation in the U.S., I

always think that the minimum standard we should have is that future generations of kids get to see butterflies flying around their backyard. Like, that should happen. That was something that in my backyard was happening all the time and I loved it. And if we've messed up our ecosystem so much that we don't have butterflies for our future generations to see, we've made a big mistake. And we're certainly on the way there. And that's a good observation that people are actually seeing less. And a lot of that has to do with things like monarchs, their migration along the way. There aren't as many flowers for them to drink from. There aren't as many milkweed plants for them to lay eggs on. Has to do a lot with our agriculture. We've done a

lot of habitat destruction when it comes to development. The best thing you can do, everybody can do this if you have a yard or a patio or anything, is to plant native plants. So, there's a great website, Xerxes Society, X-E-R-C-E-S. They will have great listings to show what you should plant there. And it makes a big difference because if you're putting out any plant, any flower, and you see butterflies come there and drink from it or lay eggs on there, that means that that was previously missing from the ecosystem. We need more and more and more to help boost those populations and help them sustain what we've done to our area. So, make sure that you plant something native. Yes.

And you can check on the website and be like, uh-huh. For sure. Yes. Something for the adults. So, some really nice, some of the cone flowers are great. Butterflies love drinking those for the nectar and then something for the caterpillars too. So, there's a lot in the carrot family that will be really good for some caterpillars. There's a lot of options out there. Okay. Oh, killer. Also, it's just like party at my patio, butterflies. Yeah, for sure. Invited. I got what you like to drink, please do come over. So, once again, that is the Xerxes Society for Invertebrate Conservation and they're at Xerxes.org. This site is great. I just poked all around it. You can click on

your part of the country and a whole list of region-specific pollinator plants come up. So, you don't have to worry like, what if I planted the wrong thing? It'll tell you what to plant. And the name Xerxes is in honor of the first North American butterfly to go extinct. Womp, womp, because of human activity. But the nonprofit was started by a Dr. Robert Michael Pyle, who was a butterfly biologist and author. He still is. He's very much alive. I looked up a photo of him and I found one where he has these bright blue eyes that peer out from around a halo of white, wiry hair all framed by the snowy bush of a beard. And over his shoulders in this one photo, he's wearing a cloak of pea green moss from a nearby fallen tree. And I just like, I want to

kick back and drink rotten nectar with this dude. I want to be his friend. Phil. Hook it up. Sarah Wright wants to know, are there any moths or butterflies that will actually eat you? Or is my fear of them completely irrational? I'm sorry to tell you, but your fear is rational. No. So there is a real thing called a vampire moth. This is such a lie. This is, this is absolutely real. I think the genus is called Calyptera. And they have a piercing mouth part. And a lot of times they'll find them like on cattle or something out there. But I think they have landed on humans and like pierced them and then drank their blood. This does not feel like a real story, Phil Torres. Please tell me

if this is, if this is a lie. This is totally real. What, what, what, this cannot be real. And what I love about it is the way that they think it evolved is from previously feeding on fruit. So if you feed on fruit, you need to be able to pierce that skin of the fruit, right? So they've evolved this proboscis that's kind of pointy at the end. Oh my God. And then imagine this scenario where one of these butterflies that was feeding on fruit landed on some mammal and maybe was drinking its salt or something like that and then accidentally pierced through the skin and then got a mouth full of blood. And then that one was like, wow, I have like super powers and can lay a million eggs and made with a million females. So they had higher reproductive success.

And then that gene and that behavior just evolved into them. And so it all came from piercing fruit. And what in my like science fiction future of the world in like a million years, that's going to be more commonplace because there are butterflies, especially in the Traxanis subfamily, that will feed on fruit all the time. And they have very sharp proboscises. And so they can pierce right through a fruit to drink it. And so they basically have the right scenario set to evolve into drinking human blood. So I would just love to like, you know, you like go into the future in a time machine, you come out and be like, where are all the humans? And then all of a sudden, you're just like surrounded by butterflies that are beautiful and landing on you and piercing

your skin and drinking your blood dry. Oh my God. The future sucks. So naturally, I looked at the vampire moth and despite its hella death metal habits, it looks very beige, very unassuming, very norm core. So is that the most goth moth? I'm feeling like no, I think that the climbing moth might take it. Hear me out. It's this lily white moth with a black velvety upside down cross on its wings. And it looks very much like it would fly into a hot topic and try to eat a wool cape. But then in a quest to find the goth moth, I have to land, perhaps on the legendary Lepidoptera from Silence of the Lambs. Agent Starling, meet Mr. Acherontius Styx. Weird. Better known to his friends as the Death Head Moth. So Death Head Moth, it's got a skull

on his face. It's named after a river and hell and it tricks bees and eats their honey. It's like this is a clear winner of the goth moth pageant. Thank you for taking this journey with me. No, wait, really quick diversion. Speaking of movies, do you have a favorite butterfly movie? How do you feel about the butterfly effect? Is there any any movies that get butterflies right or wrong? I'm sorry. There's a lot to get them wrong. Bugs life is like still one of my favorite movies ever. It's pretty great. They make some mistakes, but I like it. When I was in college, we had an entomology club that we started and we would get together and we would watch like really bad movies with insect themes. Oh my God. And like we would watch a rectinphobia and be like,

oh, that butterfly isn't found on that continent and like make all these like snarky remarks. And so most people get it wrong, but the butterfly effect, the movie that is 100% accurate. No. Every butterfly flap that happens, that changes the entire world. That's not true. That's not true. It's not. Well, you got me with the vampire butterflies for a minute there. So Julie wants to know, how long do butterflies live and what does a day in the life of a butterfly look like? Ooh, that's a good question. So most butterflies will live maybe around two weeks, you could say, and their life, if they're male, it'll be, you know, getting some good resources.

Lots of times it'll be defending a territory. Some will just kind of hang out in a patch of flowers or hang out on the side of a tree and kind of defend that and waiting for a female to come by. And for a female, same thing, she's going to be drinking nectar, but then like floating around a little bit easier. And you can actually usually tell the difference between a male and female butterfly in flight just by kind of watching the speed and the males kind of fly around. Like they got somewhere to go and they're a little bit more rapid and jittery and like, hey, are you a male? Get out of here and that kind of thing. So wait, they have like a horny swagger? Basically. It's like they spray too much

axon in the morning and they're like, I got this. And who wants to do it? Who wants to do it? And then the females kind of just float around. They're like these beautiful little things that are just a little bit floppier up in the air, a little bit more like a cartoon butterfly you would see. And generally they're just kind of saying, okay, is there a male that's going to approach me or let's say I'm ready to lay eggs. They're smelling the air with their antennae to figure out where is the host plant that I need, that specific type of plant to lay an egg. So they're just kind of cruising sniffing the air and enjoying the day. And for two weeks, they got a lifespan. Two weeks.

Generally two weeks. And then you have some exceptions, especially migratory species like the monarchs, the ones that overwinter in Mexico, they live for months and they can travel super far and it's pretty cool. You just went there and you posted a video and there were millions of monarchs. So look for the video called the butterfly migration on Phil's YouTube channel, The Jungle Diaries. So did Phil lose his mind? Spoiler alert. I lost my mind. I think it's about 10 million monarchs per acre. Something like that. And it was insane. That's crazy. 10 million monarchs per acre?

It was so, there's so many butterflies around that it was loud. You would hear this like whoo, like this, this rustling of, you know, a single butterfly flies by you and flaps its wing. You won't hear that. But if you put 10 million around you, all of a sudden, all those micro noises add up into like filling the entire forest with this like whispering sound. You can hear it, but that's no wind. That is the sound of millions of butterflies flying around me right now. And it's probably my favorite sound ever. It was just one of the most magical things and it really solidifies our need for conservation in the US and our need to put more native plants out there because growing up when I first learned

about these monarchs migrating down to this forest in Mexico, we were always taught like, oh, the Mexicans better protect this forest because if they don't, then the butterflies won't have any place to overwinter and it's going to be their fault. And they've done a pretty good job actually protecting the forest. It's not perfect, but they've incorporated it into their local tourism, so it's providing good income and more motivation not to cut down the forest. But the reason why butterfly populations have been dropping now, the monarchs, is because of what we've done here in the US. We've decimated their migration routes. We have, you know, used certain herbicides that have killed out all the milkweed in certain areas,

so they don't have anywhere to lay their eggs. So it was very interesting when you're down, there, and you look around at these butterflies and say, you could have flown here from Canada, you could have flown here from Montana, you could have flown here from South Carolina. Each one has a different story behind it. You can imagine how many times it could have died or needed a flower, had all these things happened to it, and then they end up right there in this forest and it's really something. Now, is that all, those are during the winter months or right before spring? Yep, winter months. So basically November to February is the peak, I would say. So like get your tickets for the Mexican butterfly forest like now.

Yeah, I'm actually going to be leading trips out there next year. So if you guys want to come, just follow me and I'll be posting about it. So Phil and another friend of ours, Dr. Jason Goldman, lead trips through Atlas Obscura. So follow Phil on social media, go to his websites, in the show notes, or check Atlas Obscura. It may not be booking yet, but keep checking back, they'll announce it. Heather Crowther wants to know, I know touching butterfly wings can really hurt them, but why? What's happening? Is it the oils on our hands reacting with something? What's happening when you touch a butterfly without consent? Not a whole lot. So a lot of people out there will, you know, if they see an image of me like holding a butterfly by its wings

or something, they'll be like, oh, you're killing it. And that's not the case. Now, there are very specific ways to hold a butterfly that I'm, I'm good at where you minimize the amount of damage because generally, if you're touching it wrong, you're rubbing all the scales off of it, or you might tear its wing a little bit because their wings are pretty sensitive. So you definitely don't want to damage the wing. I do not recommend anybody touching a butterfly, but you probably won't kill it unless you like really get into there. And so yeah, they're, they're tougher than they look. I didn't know that. I always felt like it was like, if you touch a butterfly, like it will find a corner and be like, see you later. You killed it. Yeah.

Not true. Not true. Jason Shirley wants to know, what's the largest butterfly ever recorded? The Queen Alexandra's bird wing, which is found down in like Papua New Guinea in certain areas there. And I want to say it's the females have like a 11 inch wingspan, something like that. It's huge. And the first entomologists who went down there to collect this thing, they didn't have giant butterfly nets because they, they fly way up high. So the only way they could collect them is with a shotgun. So they would take a shotgun, aim it up and then bang, shoot this thing out of the sky. And they'd be like, whoa, there's a butterfly. And so some of the oldest specimens, I'm sure in like the London Museum and that kind of thing have

shotgun holes in them. Oh my God. A queen. Queen Alexandra's bird wing, which is a very endangered species. And it's one of the few that's collecting it has made it endangered. Generally, there's so many butterflies that go around. Habitat destruction is the big thing. And collecting it is not really a big deal. But some of those, they are protected species, a lot of the bird wings, because they're so big and really beautiful. The females look different than the males. Really gorgeous, incredible species. And so sometimes people collect them just to, for art or just to own them rather than collect them for data or for science to be done. So they're caterpillars? Are they the size of hot dogs?

Yeah, probably brought worst. Okay. Like, I'm sure they are huge. There are some big caterpillars out there. That brings me to a personal question about our own collection. It's bad that I have a butterfly collection and dead butterflies that I have purchased. It's not, it depends on, you want to make sure it's the right species. There are some that are protected, some that are endangered in the wild. You definitely don't want to have those for that. I think if you're doing it right and you're spreading appreciation, that is okay. A lot of these are actually bred in facilities and they're not like collected in the wild because wild butterflies, they get pretty beat up pretty quick. You can actually tell the age of a butterfly depending on how

beat up it is generally. And only a couple days in, they'll have some clips on their wings or they'll have some dusty spots. And so that's not going to be nice to display in a home. So people will breed them and that provides a good income for people and motivates them to protect the forest and protects the native plants and some corner of the world. So I think it's like, it's a cool product that can come out of these places and can be done in a ethical and sustainable and conservation-minded way. Okay. Lexi Federer says, I've heard that butterfly bushes are now considered invasive and are bad for

butterflies. Why is this PSI live in Michigan? So she's talking about budileo, which is a butterfly bush. And that was the one, maybe, you know, in the 90s, early 2000s, everybody was like, plant this, this plant because it's a big bush. It has these really big flowers on it that are just really pretty colored. And I plant a lot when I was a kid. And that's a tricky one because they are not native. There are native options that you can go for that do a similar effect. And generally, when you plant non-native things, you're slightly sterilizing your environment because, yes, it may attract things that will feed on the nectar, but there's no caterpillars that are going to feed on the leaves.

And if there's no caterpillars on the leaves and there's no birds feeding on those caterpillars or spiders crawling on that. And so it basically takes away this opportunity for life. It's a tricky thing. It's a personal decision. If you had the time and just googled what's the best native thing to plant here instead, that would clearly be the winner. John Worcester and Casey Handmar want to know, essentially, how do they, how do some butterflies fly so long? Are they just on the wind currents or are they really that badass? It's a little bit of wind current, a little bit of badass. And every butterfly, their thorax will be a little bit different.

So the thorax is where they keep all their big muscles for flight and for walking around. So some butterflies, you grab the thorax and you're like, that thing is buff. They work out and you'll really feel the strength of these flight muscles. And some insects like beetles, the big ones that when they fly and you feel the thorax, it's actually like warm from the friction from like all that exothermic stuff going on. Like they're very, their muscles do some work. So there's some butterflies that are pretty buff and so they're able to fly a long time. And then they do take advantage of the currents. I think monarch butterflies have been recorded at 11,000 feet. Oh my God. And they just kind of go where the wind goes. And they take

advantage of that. And so there have been times where if there's a big hurricane in the Caribbean in Florida, somewhere people will be like, wow, I just found a butterfly that is native to Guatemala that is flying around my backyard right now. And it didn't belong here. So they can go really far sometimes and storms will push them that way. Oh my God. Maybe they had some plant nectar. And then they're like, let me go fly a couple thousand miles by. Yeah. That's so badass. It's pretty cool how they're able to pull all this off. Like evolution is crazy because like predators put so much pressure on things and just freak accidents, put so much pressure on things to be a really efficient machine as an organism. So butterflies, they may look pretty, but like they, they're

efficient and they're good flyers and they got, they got a lot of interesting things about them. Have you taken anything away existentially or philosophically from butterflies like about change or about, about not being ashamed to smell poo? I don't know anything. You know what? I think, you know, the metamorphosis analogy or metaphor, that's not my thing. But for me, it's, it's all about like keeping that curiosity and joy that I had as a seven year old catching butterflies and like being like not ashamed at all to have that same excitement as a full grown adult. And sure in high school and a little bit in college, like it wasn't like the cool thing to do to show off your butterfly collection. But I was just like,

it doesn't matter. Like I, I love this stuff and nature is so cool and there's so much to learn. Like we know probably the most about the monarch butterfly and the cabbage white, but we still have so many questions about those two species. And imagine all the other 18,000 that are out there. So I just think if anything, I've just learned like just keep that joy alive and that curiosity alive because nature really has some magnificent things, even if they happen to be really pretty, like I don't care. They're awesome. What about what's the crappiest thing about your job? What's the hardest or most disappointing or most arduous? It's a mix because I used to be more like official scientist and now I'm more science communicator.

And so part of it, the travel is amazing, but there was a point where after living two years in the jungle where I was like, I should probably be around other humans again. And so finding that balance. And I've seen some field biologists who go a little bit too far and end up because it's kind of addicting. You have this adrenaline rush, this idea that you can make a discovery and it's really exciting out there, but you need to have a real life too. And you need to have relationships. And that's how that is a successful life to me. It has to be meaningful both in work and discovery, but also in relationships with friends and loved ones and family and all that. So balancing that took a little bit of work. And still sometimes I'm

traveling quite a bit that can be challenging. I'm sure you know what I'm talking about. What other is tough about my job? Oh yeah. And then also just like freelance life. I think that's the only other thing. A lot of people have more, there's not a lot of jobs in science. And so I saw a lot of people going for the same thing of going to be a professor or research scientist. And I was like, okay, I'm going to take a little left turn here and still have my mind stimulated, still get the same opportunities to travel for science, but work more on the communication side and storytelling side. Because when I was, I would do these expeditions when I was young and we would do the craziest things. Like we got held at gunpoint twice in Venezuela. I got

lost in a forceful of quicksand in Mongolia. I would like sing under the stars of these Mongolians drinking fermented horse milk. And that's how we communicated because they didn't speak English. I didn't speak Mongolian. And we would just sing each other songs. And I was like, this, there's a side of science that people aren't hearing. And maybe if they heard those stories more, they would care more about what we're studying here. Because sure, some of the insects out there aren't innately appealing to the average person. But when you tell a story around it, then it really starts to shine and people start to attach appreciation to them. I love that I asked you the scariest thing in the jungle was, and you neglected to tell me

that you've been held up at gunpoint twice. Oh yeah, humans are also very scary in the jungle, too. But generally, you just, as long as you communicate and don't go in there as like American savior, like conservation is about working with the people there. It's not about working just with the animal. Like it's all about working with the people. And so building good relationships and using what they figured out over a long time. Were you able to negotiate your way out of that? Yeah, we were. One time it was the government in Venezuela. I was under Chavez. They weren't very friendly. They stopped our bus, took the three of us off. There's like two or three chuck foals of dudes with machine guns. And they put us against the bus and padded us down. And I think

it was kind of just a bluff because they track your every move there. Like everything you do, you have to put in your passport information. And they weren't very fond of Americans back then. But I mean, that would be a good cover for Spy because there have been Lepidoptera studying researcher spies in the past. The founder of the Scouts would work in North Africa, I think this during World War One. And he would draw maps of enemy locations and butterfly wings and then send it back to the collections. No way. Heck yeah. So Robert Baden Powell did indeed found the Boy Scouts and was indeed all up in some espionage as detailed in his book, My Adventures of a Spy. That's just straight up, he was straight up a spy. So he wrote,

carrying this book and a butterfly net in my hand, I was above all suspicion to anyone who met me on the lonely mountain side. So thanks for the advice, Madude. I will go do that. What, no? I don't recommend people doing it now because then that'll like ruin scientists access to these places that we want to go and study. So don't mess with science. Let's just, yeah, let that be in the past. And then the other guys, they were just kind of really drunk. And that was challenging. But we figured it out. Oh my God. What's the best thing about what you do? What do you love the most about butterflies, about your work? I mean, one part that I love is just being able to go to places and have access to things that there's no other job that gives you that opportunity.

You go to some really weird places, you really get to go behind the scenes and areas and that's irreplaceable. I mean, I've pretty much never had an office job my entire life and that's great. And I love that. And then the other part is what it does to your brain. Like you get this brain tingle. I like to call it as a scientist and many people can relate to this where you, there's something out there that you're trying to figure out. And some of these things that I've studied and published papers on, it's like a puzzle out there that you're like, okay, I see this part over here, this part over there, this part down there. How do they relate? How does this thing make sense? And I would lose sleep over it sometimes. But your brain has this feeling that

you just can't, there's nothing out there like it. It's like the best crossword puzzle ever. We like unnailed it. And that is a really exciting part of my job because it's super, super fulfilling because you're not just doing it for yourself. I'm sure some people may be more kind of ego driven. But one thing I was noticed like explorers who people call themselves explorers oftentimes would go to just be like, I've done it, plant a flag and say they've done it. Now many are doing it for conservation reasons, which is great. But I was like, what if you could explore and contribute knowledge to the world? The things you find as a scientist and studying butterflies, like some of these papers I've published, nobody knew this before. And that's a

really cool feeling to be like, guess what world drops of knowledge on you that now for the rest of history of humanity, they're going to know this thing that they didn't know before. It's exciting. I mean, and to start helping discover species at 19, like that's got to be a little bit addictive too, probably, right? Yes, for sure. For sure. And I have huge respect for the people out there who dedicate their entire career to that. People kind of forget that we still need to catalog what life is out there. We have so much work to do. In sex alone, there's probably at least another million, if not nine million species out there to be discovered. Millions left to be done. And they're everywhere. And so we need people to do those jobs. And it's

even though it sounds cool when it comes to getting funding for that kind of work, you don't always get the biggest budget. And now you're getting married this year. I am. Are you going to have butterflies be represented at all during your wedding? Definitely. So we're going to, instead of flower girls, we're having butterfly girls. Oh, really? So little butterfly wings everywhere. And then for our place settings, we're going to do some cool stuff with like giving out native seeds and that kind of thing. Oh my God, that's so cool. Just to get people oriented. Yeah, there's so many ways you can incorporate this stuff into your life. And so we just kind of want to show people like this is what's important to us.

Oh, that makes me so happy. I was wondering, I was like, I wonder if Phil's wedding is going to involve bucks at all. Yeah. I kind of want to get some shoes with bugs on them. I know. I think you should. I think you deserve it. Yeah, we'll see. Go crazy. Some butterfly slippers. Yeah. Why not? I did look up some fly shoes for Phil and I found some cool Gucci bug loafers that cost a grand. And then also some suede butterfly loafers on eBay for like 100 bucks.

So if anyone has a Gucci hookup for these loafers, holler at Phil online. Wouldn't that be great? Come on. Come on, someone, right? Okay, another update. His wonderful fiance. And now wife Celia got him the Gucci bug loafers as a wedding gift. And the ceremony was gorgeous. I danced so much at the reception. I should be mortified, but for some reason I'm not. It was just a great party. It was such a good wedding. They're both so wonderful. And I'm very glad that they're here on planet earth with us. And married. Thank you so much for doing this. Totally. This is a blast.

So please do continue to ask smart people awkward, sometimes not smart questions, because that's the only way any of us learn and they secretly love it. So to see some of Phil's gorgeous photography, and it's really amazing, check out his Instagram at Phil underscore Torres. His Twitter is also Phil underscore Torres. And he's at the jungle diaries on YouTube or his website is phil-taurus.com. I'll put links to those at alleyward.com slash oligies and in the show notes. You can find the show at oligies on Twitter or Instagram where I post some visuals from the show all week. And I'm at alleyward, just one L on both Twitter and Instagram.

You can join the question club on patreon.com slash oligies. You can lob your queries at upcoming oligists and also support the show that way. For merch, you can go to oligiesmerch.com. You can tag your photos online with oligies merch and I'll repost them on merch Mondays. Thank you, Shannon Feltas and Bonnie Dutch. Very, very cool Portland sisters for helping manage all the merch. You can join the discussion on the Facebook oligies podcast group. Thank you, Hannah Lippo and Aaron Talbert, my good friends for admitting that and thanks as always to the very, very wonderful Stephen Ray Morris for editing this all together and just being the coolest dude. Just the coolest dude. Also, side note, happy birthday, Sarah Bosco.

We've known each other since we were 12. Happy birthday. If you stick around to the very, very end of the show, you know, I tell you a secret. And this week's is fresh. It's fresh off the griddle. So two hours ago, I was leaving my friend Catherine's house and she has a bowl of peanut butter ginger chews. Have you had them? They're so good. They're right next to her door and I grabbed two and I ate the first one as I was leaving her house. I was like, oh, so good. And then I unwrapped the second one before I even got to my car and I dropped it on the sidewalk, very public sidewalk and I just picked it up and dusted it off and I ate it anyway because I was alone and so what? And I'm still alive. Okay, bye-bye.