Ologies with Alie Ward - Neuroendocrinology (SEX & GENDER) Part 1 with Daniel Pfau

Episode Date: June 16, 2020

How many genders are there? How do you know if you’re queer? Is sexual orientation biological, and if so, how? The amazing Michigan State University neuroscientist and endocrinology researcher Dr. Daniel Pfau joins to share their path in academia finding the perfect research, understanding their own genderqueer identity, what animals in nature exhibit queer behavior, how hormones influence the brain, how important it was for them to find community and why the gender binary isn’t a good fit for a lot of people. They are just charming and kind and wonderful and this episode will help you understand just how many ways there are to be human. Also: smitten meadow mice, Gender Unicorns and Alie as a lion. Happy Pride, y’all. Follow Dr. Daniel Pfau at Twitter.com/endokweer A donation went to MarshaP.org Sponsor links: HelloFresh.com/ologies60; Behr.com/express; LinkedIn.com/ologies More links at alieward.com/ologies/Neuroendocrinology Transcripts & bleeped episodes at: alieward.com/ologies-extras Become a patron of Ologies for as little as a buck a month: www.Patreon.com/ologies OlogiesMerch.com has hats, shirts, pins, totes and STIIIICKERS! Follow twitter.com/ologies or instagram.com/ologies Follow twitter.com/AlieWard or instagram.com/AlieWard Sound editing by Jarrett Sleeper of MindJam Media & Steven Ray Morris Theme song by Nick ThorburnSupport the show: http://Patreon.com/ologies

Oh, hey, it's that uncle who swears you can cook fish in the dishwasher, and you're like, oh, that's okay. I'm okay. Alleyward, back for an exciting, timely, proud episode of Ologies. So I loved seeing how much support was bandied about online for Black Birders Week. Just what an amazing couple of episodes. And if you have not heard, go back and listen, get all those nature nerds in your timeline, including at Black AF and STEM and Reels on Wheels on Instagram, who I'll have on for a bonus episode. On macro photography, when he reaches 20,000 followers, he's halfway there. He's so close. Okay, also celebrate Juneteenth this week and read up on its significance.

Being June, it's also Pride Month, and I wanted to spend a few episodes talking to scientists about sexuality and gender identity and neurobiology and hormones and evolution and more. So sit tight for part one of a two-parter. But first, if you think, thank you to everyone on Patreon who makes it possible for this podcast to happen from day one. Thanks to everyone who passes episodes around and makes new oligites. Thanks to everyone writing the podcast. It takes two seconds for subscribing and keeping it up in the charts. And of course, for leaving reviews, like little happy word gnomes that make my day,

I read them all so that I can pick one, like this recent one from Last Kicking, who said, I especially enjoyed this special episode with all the amazing Black scientists as a mother of a biracial son. I was able to let my son know there's so much out there. And yes, I followed everyone on the episode. They say, awesome, Last Kicking, go burn it up. Okay, neuroendocrinology. So neuro comes from the Greek for nerve, which comes from a word for tendon or sinew or cord or penis. So we're in this.

Now endocrine means relating to hormones, which are secreted by different glands. And it comes from the Greek for to separate or to distinguish because they needed to figure out which glands squirt which hormone juices. They were like, who knows where this come from? So neuroendocrinology, the science of a bunch of cords in your body interacting with a bunch of squirty stuff. No one understands in a nutshell. So what is biological sex versus gender? And why are people attracted to one gender over the others? How many genders are there?

And what happens if we don't feel aligned with the one we were assigned at birth? When do you know if you're queer? What does queer even mean? Why is so much of it made political or religious? So I met this guest through a tweet. I tweeted out Happy Almost Pride Month. Any topics or oligists you would love to hear to celebrate Pride 2020. I'm all ears and microphones.

And at Endo Queer, K-W-E-E-R tweeted back, just going to shamelessly plug myself as a non-binary biologist studying hormones and the evolution of same sex behavior in animals. Five seconds later, I was in their DMs like, hey. So this neuroscientist got a BS in animal sciences and a master's in biological sciences at Cal Poly, San Luis Obispo. They did their PhD work at Michigan State University looking at how environmental signals contribute to sex differences and mouse brains. We talk all about it. And in part two, we're going to dive into the question back and address all of your gender queries. But in this week's part one, we cover the parts of the brain that could influence orientation and common myths. And being queer in the science field.

What percentage of older generations identified outside the man-woman gender binary? What percentage of younger folks do now and why? Different gender terminology. What it means, the worst gender reveal parties and the best cat meow ever. With the charming, candid, patient and lovely neuroendocrinologist, Dr. Daniel Vau. But yeah, I'm so excited to have gotten introduced to you on Twitter too. I was like, there's so many questions. I was like, oh, my goodness.

I started listening to the planareology with the planarians. And the professor who you're interviewing was just talking about how you just got to get out there and do it when he was looking to publish his book. And I was like, oh, hey, you know what? I should do that. I'm just going to have the chance to throw myself out there and then it works out sometimes. And I would love to know kind of how did you get so interested in the brain and in hormones? Were you always interested in psychology or were you interested in biochemistry? Yeah, I mean, when I was younger, my parents say that I didn't really have first words.

I was really quiet and eventually I started having first sentences. And one of my teachers was saying that when I grow up, I'm going to work in a laboratory. And I don't remember actually ever saying this, but they tell me it's what I said. A laboratory. So Daniel says they grew up in a devout religious house and didn't have cable or much media access, but must have picked up the laboratory accent somewhere, which just scientifically speaking, there's nothing cuter than a kid saying laboratory, nothing. Did you drop that interest when you were growing up or has that kind of always been a focus for you? You know, it's actually interesting because when I was growing up, I actually struggled a lot with coming out as a queer individual because of the sort of conservative community I was growing up with and sort of just the separation from, like I was saying, my family didn't really have TV or media. There's a huge separation between me and sort of the greater culture around me.

And though I was sort of isolated within this conservative church and for a long time, I struggled with it. And when I finally sort of started talking to someone, it was happened to be a psychologist. So this psychologist cited some research in a recent air quotes, scientific talk about conversion therapy. The talk was given basically about ex-gate therapy and how it had some suggestions that some evidence supported its efficacy, suggesting it worked. And when this sort of person I was like, oh, yes, this is a person who is science and like I'm really into science and I'm also really afraid of this thing that I know is a sin and all these things that I've grown up with. And immediately as soon as he brought in this sort of like evidence coming from the scientific fields that supported the idea that I could sort of fix myself and be what I thought was expected of me and what I thought would make me happy. And so when I had that experience, I actually really struggled for a long time to come out. But when I finally did, I sort of rejected science quite a bit at first.

I was like, I am done with research. Like, I'm just going to do stuff with animals. I wanted to become a veterinarian and I wanted to like work at zoos where I'd just be working with animals. Yeah, you're like, people, I'm over you. Exactly. And, you know, it was pretty difficult to get back into the fields because there's still a lot of both transphobia and homophobia and the scientific disciplines. Yeah. I asked what faith or denomination Daniel had grown up with as someone raised Catholic who has plenty of years just detangling those tendrils from my own psyche.

I was curious. Also, I was going to say detangling tentacles of Catholic upbringing just then, but I had a moment where I was earnestly like, that's not fair to cephalopods. But Daniel says it was a Christian church and the kids raised and it would get bullied at school. And their mission may have changed since Daniel was a kid. It's been a couple of decades, but I googled them and their motto is unfortunately, quote, you can come as you are, but you won't leave as you came. It is a great motto for us a lot, though, come as you are, you're not going to leave as you came, a church. Like a lot of the kids at school would say things like, oh, yeah, the Grace Church punch kids because like they drank the Grace Church punch because they're very brainwashed in a way. And it's very true.

There was like, I remember I really didn't like going to hang out with the other kids because I just didn't fit in there. And so I begged my parents to come and allow me to come to big church, which is where the adults would go. And so I'd sit in there. But even in there, there'd be within sermons, mentions of the evils of homosexuality. So there wasn't really any escaping of it, whether or not I was with the kids who were definitely drinking. That Grace Church punch and expressing homophobia and all those kinds of things, or even with the adults, where that same sentiment is being expressed by the person in charge. At what point did you feel like you were genderqueer, that you were not, you know, cis or straight? At what point did you feel like, hmm, kind of feel like they're talking about people like me and that sucks?

Yeah, you know, when I was really young, I had a very precarious notion of gender because I sort of was convinced that, like, at some point in my life, I would eventually be given another choice. I was like planning for that choice in a way, but I also was like dreading that choice. And I remember a lot of my time when I was in childhood, we would play games like House and stuff like that. And I'd always prefer to be ungendered, like I'd be the baby or I'd be a pet. And then even when I was younger, my mom made me a costume for Halloween because I wanted to be a bat. And Jim's in the stores were Batman. And I did not want to be dressed as Batman. And when my mom made me the costume and I'd wear it out and people would be like, oh, are you Batman?

I'd get really upset about it. And honestly, one of the sad things that happened to was way back when I had gone to a counselor when I was very young. And they had sort of instilled in me this idea that if I am feeling the need to express myself in a unique way, that it's better to not do so because it makes other people uncomfortable. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. What? Yeah. And so I think my parents, honestly, it's difficult to sort of say that they understood what was going on because it would be like they'd send me to a therapist. And I was too afraid to share anything with my parents.

And so I would continue to share with these therapists, these things. And and so the difficult thing was sort of eventually separating what I had gleaned from sort of being at church and being in these therapy sessions and sort of not receiving any other signals from my parents or from media and sort of trying to make sense of it all. And for a long time, I just couldn't. There wasn't there were no examples in my life really. And so I assumed absolutely the worst, but I just assumed that there was no like future for me in a way.

And so I think that really only started to change when I started when I came out. And I came out as queer, basically. I when I came out, I came out as gay. But I have been attending a queer youth group for a really long time. And I really identified with that word, but very few people actually know the word queer or understood what it meant. And it just was easier to say gay for a long time now. Since then, I've been like, you know, no, I really want to say that that's how I identify. Because I've always very much felt a strong connection with that word.

How would you kind of define those words separately? Or if someone wants to make sure that they're using them appropriately? Oh, yeah, I mean, I love the word queer because it's very radically affirming, meaning that when you use that word, it doesn't necessarily mean that there's a strict set of queer identities. It's accepting of any future experiences that someone might be able to inhabit. Or it's very accepting of or the fact simply that cultural differences make it so. Third gender options across the world vary. So in some countries, you have this huge variation like in the United States,

where we have people who identify as gender queer. We have people who identify as gender neutral or transgender. People who identify along different spectrums like demi-males and demi-females. And when you look out at other cultures, you find that similar things exist. OK, so soon we'll get into the science of all this in a sec or a few secs. Get it? A few secs. OK, so I wanted to provide a primer for some different genders. In case anyone is like, I'm not sure how many they are or what they mean or who to ask.

So Daniel sent me this really wonderful graphic. It's called the gender unicorn. And it's this happy, goofy, purple unicorn. And in a thought bubble with a rainbow, it says gender identity. Female, woman, girl, or male, man, boy, or other genders. There's gender expression, which is feminine, masculine, or other. There's sex assigned at birth, and that is like a DNA strand over the crotch area. And it's female, male, or other slash intersex.

Then in the heart area, it says physically attracted to women, men, or other genders. And then another heart says emotionally attracted to women, men, or other genders. So you can mix and match. That's a lot of options. And intersex, just in case you're not sure, according to GLAAD, those are people born with reproductive or sexual anatomy and or chromosome patterns that can't be classified typically as male or female. Because biologically, there's more than two outcomes there. Nature is amazing.

Okay, now what about genders? Your gender identity or your expression? Here are a few, but no means a comprehensive list. There's genderqueer, genderneutral, there's transgender. Demi-males or demi-females experience their gender as partly a girl or boy, partly another gender. Asexual folks are out there. They don't experience sexual attraction. A gender folks are out there.

Don't identify with any gender or intentionally don't follow expectations of a gender. Cis-gender folks are not transgender, so they identify with the sex they were assigned at birth. If the doctor said, it's a boy and you're like, yeah, I feel like a boy, that tracks, then you're cis. Non-binary friends don't feel their gender is best expressed in those man-woman boxes. There's gender questioning, a person exploring other identities or expressions or presentations. Gender fluid pals experience their gender as a spectrum. They might fluctuate between presenting as feminine, masculine, neither, or both. It can change for them.

So there's an awesome glossary of all these terms and more compiled and written by GLAAD and Refinery29. And I'm going to link it on the show page at alleywar.com. slash ology slash neuroendocrinology. It's so helpful and it's so inspiring. I mean, it's like entering an IKEA of genders. The choices, the beauty, the possibilities. And side note, when you put your pronouns in your bio or your email signature or your conference name tags or your Zoom meeting label, even if you're cis and straight as an arrow, it helps normalize it for others.

I'd personally love it if everyone in the future goes by they if they wanted to. I hope that we just transition to that for everyone. You know what I love? I've seen a few studies and one specifically showing that when people sort of shift to gender-neutral language like that, the more the salience of female voices is actually increased within conversations, within media and stuff like that. Really? So it's just funny to know that even just identifying as genderqueer and sort of forcing this, like, hey, you have to, you don't know your whole language with me.

Hopefully maybe even helping everyone a little bit, too. Absolutely. It does seem so odd to structure a sentence based on what you think is in someone's pants. You don't think it's so invasive. Daniel says different cultures express gender differently. So in Samoan society, they have these individuals and they're called Fa'a Fafri Nen. And they are individuals who are signed male at birth. And when you are in their society within their culture, this is sort of the cultural option for individuals that are signed male at birth,

but feel attracted to individuals of the same sex. And so, and this is sort of based in the idea of their identities. And so it is more complicated in other areas where individuals might, like for example, like myself, I identify queer because it isn't necessarily that I only am attracted to individuals of the same sex because I see individuals that can be of different sex, but of a gender I'm still attracted to. And so I identify queer because I find that no matter what sex an individual has, the gender that they are expressing is of more importance to me and can drive my attraction more. So some folks might be attracted to just a certain sex or all of them or just a certain gender or all of them. And we're seeing at least a little bit of a shift in language where I think for a long time gender and sex were used interchangeably, but even from a scientific standpoint, those are different, they're completely different labels, correct? Absolutely, yes.

As I study sex differences in the brain and that's sort of something that's been of interest me of mine for a long time and specifically for these sort of reasons. And so when I think of sex, I typically think of how people are going to be defining it in terms of culturally. And so people usually reduce it to things like you're saying what's inside someone's pants or chromosomes or hormone levels. And really one of the things about human sex is that we have a lot more variation in terms of our development because of how it's portioned off. And our bodies develop at different times as our brains develop and the hormone levels might vary during those times. So even individuals within the same sex actually show a lot of variation amongst themselves. So there's a few studies out there showing within the brain. So this is Dr. Daphna Joel and she does work on fMRI scans of the brain.

So we're looking at actual human brains. So this is Dr. Daphna Joel and Dr. Joel is an Israeli neuroscientist at the School of Psychological Sciences and the School of Neuroscience at Tel Aviv University. And this part coming up is amazing. What her work suggests is basically that instead of there being like these two monolithic groups of the male brain and the female brain divided by sex, there's actually sort of more of a mosaic within every individual. And so each individual has both male and female regions or masculized and feminized regions. And one of the implications, I think, one of the important implications of this, I think, is that rather than seeing differences between the sexes as huge and something of importance,

we also need to really pay attention to the fact that the differences between individuals are also very large within humans. The way I like to think about it sort of is that any average difference between males and females is smaller than individual differences between any male and any other male and any female and any other female. That's sort of getting to the idea of how gender can be developed in that it's not necessarily this black and white thing of man and woman. There's sort of a spectrum and individuals might feel that their experiences go along more with a certain identity versus someone who maybe like me feels like oftentimes they're at odds. Like in some situations, I'm absolutely seeing myself in a gender queer light. I see myself as an individual who is sort of working from this place of not necessarily having any restrictions based on my gender.

And because of that, I'm able to more freely discuss my opinions in an authentic way. Which is wonderful to express yourself without a filter of what culture tells you your gender is supposed to do. So what would you do if people didn't see you as your gender assigned at birth? What would you do? Would you cry more openly? Would you buzz all your hair off? Would you ask different genders out on dates if you felt attracted to them? Would you stop waxing parts of your body that hurt? Would you apply for a higher level job? Would you wear lipstick? Would you stand up to authority more?

Would you be more nurturing? There are so many ways that expectations of ourselves change how we act. And so when I think about sex and gender, I really think about how humans are so much more complex than, for example, animals. Where it's obvious that we can really measure some very distinct differences between males and female animals. And compared to humans, like, those differences can be much greater than individual differences. An embryo or a fetus is developing. There is a stage where the reproductive system is pretty much the same and then it can split off one way or the other. What's happening with brain development? And I mean, this is a super stupid question.

But is there an area of the brain that influences gender? So that's a good question. I mean, one of the things that I think has come from research looking into sort of like a transgender brain or the gendered brain is this idea of variety. And honestly, I feel like you're saying there are these periods of development where, like you're saying the gonads develop at a specific period and then the brain develops at a specific period. But it's not just as simple as that. The gonads develop at a specific period and they release hormones at specific periods. The brain develops at a specific period, but also different regions within the brain are going to develop at different periods. And so if you have variability with any number of those factors, you're going to end up with a lot more differences between individuals. Whereas with animals, you sort of have this very strict, this much more strict aspect of development because, like for us, our brain development is very elongated. And gender identity doesn't really solidify until we've actually developed a little bit past our natal periods.

So we actually, when we are born, there's likely no possibility for us to sort of express our gender, I would say. So gender reveal parties and blue and fuchsia onesies are not an expression of gender. They're just clothes telling other people what you think your baby's gender will be based on what is in their diaper. And I have a really good friend and he and his wife are two of the smartest people I have ever met. Like true science geniuses and they have yet to announce their year old child's gender because they say they don't know it. They call their baby they them or baby or its name and they say if anyone's really curious about its sex, they can change its diaper. They slip up with pronouns and they're not upset if anyone else does, but they said it's an interesting experiment to not impose roles on a child. And also it was a way to open their relatives eyes to gender expression and nonconformity.

I applaud this and I love it. But what if you don't have a baby to run this trial on? Maybe look at lizards. And what about some of the neuroscience research you do? You've worked with Western fence lizards, right? I think that was their cat. Wait, let's hear it again. Dang, that was cute.

OK, so Western fence lizards, a critter we also talked about in serology with Aaron McGee, is a species Daniels worked with. Yes. So this goes back to my childhood, actually, because I grew up right near sort of this really rocky field area. And we had tons of the they called them blue valleys on California. Yes, yes, yes. Wait, where about in California did you grow up? San Luis Obispo. Oh, yeah. Yeah. OK. And that's when you did your study, too.

Yes. In Cal Poly? Right, right, right. Yes. OK, I know exactly what you're talking about. Yeah. Yes, it was actually really awesome because I loved watching them when I was younger. I'd spend hours outside. And that's another thing about me when I was younger.

I just loved watching nature. I could sit outside and like stare at a plant and watch just staring at how it branches and how the growth is happening and which leaves are the most like developed versus the ones that aren't and where they are in the brand. It was, yeah, and I would just sit there and watch animals. And these blue valleys were absolutely one of my favorites to watch because they do these cute little push-ups where it's a little territorial display where when they see another male. So these are the males that perform these push-ups and you'll see them out basking in the sun. And if they see another male come nearby, they'll do a territorial display. And it really makes it helps to prevent sort of physical interaction. So if they can scare off this male with these push-ups, then neither of them really has to go all the ways to expend enough energy as to get a fight and possibly get hurt, which is a huge cost to the animal.

New push-ups. And so I just love watching them. And when I got to Cal Poly and started working at a vet clinic, I realized I was really just enjoying my time in the lab there doing sort of work on the microscope and doing blood work and things like that. And so when I was taking a biology course on, it was basically just sort of intro biology, and the professor, Dr. Emily Taylor, was actually giving a talk about these really cool studies where people looked at pheromones in humans. And what they were seeing is if these men wore these t-shirts, these white t-shirts, and they didn't wear any deodorant or drink any alcohol or coffee, and then they took off the shirts. And allowed women to smell them, and then allowed the women to rate the attractiveness of the men based on the t-shirt smell. And I think there's a positive relationship between how highly they score the scent and how highly they score the attractiveness of the male. And so afterwards, I walked up and I asked Dr. Taylor, sort of like, oh my goodness, I've ever been any research like this done in the homosexual community.

And she was like, oh, well, I hasn't, but that is such an awesome question. And it's really cool that you're thinking about stuff like that. And she was like, you know, there's a new professor here that's looking at the brain and actually hormones, which is sort of related. And I had been sort of already thinking, OK, I really need to switch it up. And when this opportunity appeared, I was like, OK, I'll check it out. And I started working in the lab. And honestly, and this was a Dr. Chrissie Strand and Dr. Strand's mentorship really just meant so much to me because in terms of sort of feeling lost in the world of biology after what I've been through, it really helped to have someone like her as well as Dr. Taylor to really just provide me with a safe place to be queer and be a scientist.

And I know 500 queer scientists is great helping people find that community. Did you find that when you were starting in science that it was it was kind of difficult to express your identity in academia? Oh, definitely. I was once advised to not put my volunteer work in the LGBTQ community on an application for grad school because people might be biased against that. Oh, yes, absolutely. It was difficult. There was a lot of the school I attended, Cal Poly, is known for being somewhat more conservative. And the during the time that I was there, actually, we got our first pride center, which started out as like, if you know, those like buildings that they bring in when they're doing construction.

Like a trailer, like, yeah. And the other side of the building was actually the office for the construction worker. Oh, my God. And so we were in this little alleyway. But they say that that pride center, even though it was first situated in a portable building, was incredibly empowering, especially because in academia, there can be pressure to conform to kind of older standards. But I think the cool thing is, is that there's nothing more gender neutral than doctor. Oh, yeah, that's my one absolute favorite thing. As soon as they told me I could call myself doctor, I was like, everybody's gonna get me doctor now.

But he gets to come here. Everybody's gonna get me doctor now. Can you tell me a little bit about about your PhD work or a little bit about the research? Like, what do you, what kind of questions did you really want to answer? Yeah, so I was actually really, really lucky. I worked with Dr. Cynthia Jordan, who typically does work on sort of a disease model that's looking at a disease called Kennedy's disease, which is based on hormone interactions with neurons. And so she's had this really cool discovery that interactions between the muscles and the neurons, looking at that specifically, you can sort of alter your methods of treating it and maybe interact with the muscle more rather than the neurons themselves.

Daniel says that they struggled landing in the new territory of Lansing, Michigan, and looking back at the LGBTQ community at Cal Poly, they reflect. The community there really helped me to strengthen myself and really helped me find my power again. But Daniel's PhD work at Michigan State University dealt with something that they have been fascinated with since their early college days. Since undergrad. So when I was an undergrad, I learned about these mice and they're these mice that I have lost this gene called the transient receptor potential cation channel two. Of course. Or TRPC2. Yeah, TRPC2 is a much easier.

And so, so this protein is used by a sort of sensory organ in the nose of rodents and other animals. And it typically detects pheromones and it's called the boomeron nasal organ. And this organ basically specializes in detecting those pheromones. And pheromones are typically considered chemicals that are released by one animal that are supposed to be detected by an animal of the same species and an active behavioral or chemical change within them. So when the boomeron nasal organ senses a pheromone, it's able to send the signal to the brain that is sent to several regions and these signals are lost when TRPC2 gene is taken out. Oh, yeah, I mean, there are there's very weak signals, but in general, the signal is lost. And so these mice, they have a boomeron nasal organ, but it cannot send signals to the brain mostly. Wow.

Okay, so to recap, a boomeron nasal organ, aka a Jacobson organ is in the snoots of a lot of reptiles and vertebrates. And it's this patch of sexy sensory cells within the nasol. That's a nose. And it detects, quote, heavy, moisture-borne odor particles. Humans have a little one too, but scientists don't even know if we use it past the fetal stage. Also, a knockout mouse is a genetically modified lab mouse that has certain genes knocked out of it for research, in this case, the TRPC2 gene. So without that gene, a line of communication between that organ and the brain is lost. So what happens?

They show these fascinating behaviors. So one of the really interesting ones, one of the really interesting ones is that the females that have lost this gene show male typical mounting, meaning that they'll actually mount both males and females, actually. And so it's really interesting to see just this female mouse that you typically would have to give a high amount of testosterone to in order to induce these behaviors to just simply be mounting any that you put in there with it. Yeah. And so the same thing is true for the males. They'll mount both male and female mice.

And so I was just fascinated by this when I was younger. Well, an undergrad. And so when I was talking to Dr. Jordan about this, she had actually been very interested in looking at these mice as well. And so we decided that we would look at the brain because previous research has sort of suggested that the reason why these behaviors existed was simply because the loss of these signals so that the the marines organ was gone and without those signals, the brain was acting differently. And I really thought that there must be something more to it, that it couldn't simply be that the signal is gone and suddenly females are mounting. There had to be some more robust changes to something beyond just the marinesal organ. And so we decided to look into the brain of these animals and I decided to look at these two regions associated with the behaviors that these mice, that these knockout mice show that are altered.

So not only do they show altered sexual behaviors, but they also show altered aggressive behavior. So males that would typically aggress towards males don't actually show any aggression towards males and they'll mount them. And then females, when they're actually nursing their pups, they have what's called a maternal aggression. So this is really interesting and it's actually related to another to an animal that's I think I consider queer. So female mice in the wild, when they have a litter, want to protect it because if a male mice comes along and those pups aren't his, he will kill them so that she will go back into cycling and you can be impregnated because he wants her to have his babies. Right. It's like literal toxic masculinity. Exactly.

Inaction right here. And so what the females do is when they're nursing, they gain aggression and they only aggress towards males that are not the male that they made it with. And so these females, which typically show aggression while nursing, when the gene is lost, they don't. Oh. And so these big changes in behavior are seen in these knockout animals and it's just sort of like, I felt like this idea that it was simply the loss of signals. The lunare's organ just simply was, it was just too simple to explain it. And so, and I feel like Cindy really felt the same and she was like, let's do it. Let's look at it.

Let's get these mice and look at the brains. And I was real excited. We, we did it. And it was really cool. We did find that within these two regions, there are quite a lot of changes between the wild type animals, which are the ones that do have the gene and the animals that don't. And actually I have, I'm working on the manuscript for that right now. So Daniel's working on a manuscript about those reproductive behavioral changes. And I can't say much about it, but they were like, I can tell you about more queer behavior in animals.

And I was like, hello, my ears are open. So remember the lady mice who will usually throw down if someone tries to eat their babies and then date them. The same exact paradigm actually happens in lions. So when a pride is headed by a male, the females will mate with him and they'll have other cubs. But if that male dies, then another male comes in and with, if there's cubs in the pride, he'll kill them. Because that will cause the females to start cycling again and be able to have more cubs sooner. Now the females, some females have developed this ability to grow a mane and develop a really deep roar. And so if a female is in a pride and all of her sisters have cubs, and that's really great genetics for her,

because she's still got her genes going on to the next generation and the male dies and another male comes in, it's definitely helpful as she's got a mane and she can roar like a male lion and she can protect the cubs for a little while longer. Oh my God. Life finds a way. Just want to say that as a child free ant with huge untamed red hair, I am just feeling this vibe. So to my niece Fuse, if you ever have a stepdad who sucks, God forbid, I will scream in his face. I had no idea that that was a thing. Yeah.

And I mean, this one specifically, I love it, but I don't believe there has been any specific work to make sure that's exactly what's happening. But it's definitely something that can occur based on the behavioral interactions in lion prides. And in hyenas, there's certain species of hyenas that have almost like a pseudo-faltless, right? Yes. So the females who have these giant clitoris that the birth canal goes through. And so they are, like you said, they're pseudo-falses. And it's really interesting because of how sort of not only is there this sort of phallus on the females, but the what people would consider sort of gender roles or something switched up in that the females are the ones that are really in charge. And the males are very, like, submissive to the female.

Is that hormonal too, do you think? One of the things that's really interesting, I think, in animals is that hormones can have different effects and different species that are very related. Did you click play on this podcast to gossip about the love lives of prairie voles and mountain voles? You know, you did. And prairie voles, I believe, are monogamous and montane moles are polygamous. And the brain reasons that they have that control sort of pair bonding have receptors for oxytocin and vasopressin. And depending on the number of receptors, controls whether or not they are going to be expressing polygamy or monogamy behaviors. Wow.

So yes, if a prairie vol, which is like a little meadow mouse hangs out for a day or so after boning, they will bond for life and they'll groom and cuddle with each other, probably start wearing matching windbreakers, order the same salads, and they'll mate and raise babies together. Doesn't mean they won't occasionally get some on the side, but their brain chemicals act like an emotional epoxy and they are life partners. That is, that's so interesting that this is happening. There's, you know, just all over, all over nature and that it's chemicals. And yeah, I mean, all we are is a big bag of soupy chemicals in general. But we're just a bunch of rearranged molecules. But that's so interesting to see how that behavior is in the, in the wild too. Yeah.

And another thing, deer that have low levels of androgens. So male deers that either have somehow has them to stick to their trauma or they were born with androgen insensitivity. They might grow up to be what's called a velvet deer. And so these are the deer that have like antlers, but there's still that fuzzy velvet. And what they've shown in this one has actually been studied. They looked at a population of deer that had these male queer deers and then they had another population that didn't. And they were looking during the mating season. What they found is that in the populations that had these queer deer, the aggression that was directed towards females was reduced because males sort of directed it towards the queer deer.

But because these velvet queer deer were like very wary of the males and didn't need to reproduce with them, it just, it didn't affect them. But it had the effect of reducing aggression towards the females. Wow. The idea of sort of these feminized males reducing aggression towards females has been put forth in a lot of different species actually. It's sociological as well as neuroendocrinology. Neuroendocrinological, I can't say that. Neuroendocrinological, yeah, I can't hear that. Yep, it's really hard to say.

Neuroendocrinologically. Yes, thank you. Neuroendocrinological, neuroendocrinological, fuck. Neuroendocrinological, neuroendocrinological, yes. Okay, it's a real mouthful. So while my face recovers from trying to pronounce that, let's take a quick break for some messages from sponsors. So each week, ourologist chooses an organization to get a donation made possible by sponsors of the show. And this week, Dr. Daniel Fowl chose the Marsha P. Johnston Institute, that's marshap.org, which we're going to talk about a little bit later in the episode.

This episode and the next are dedicated to her memory and to all of the strength and contributions that black trans women and men and non-binary people who have made such huge sacrifices and leaps in establishing traditions of pride and the effects of that. That it's had on our culture. So a donation was made to that wonderful institute thanks to sponsors of the show. Okay, we'll get back into conversation with Daniel. Who are you ready for this? Had a paper published just last year titled, The Descent of Sexuality. Did loss of a pheromone signaling protein permit the evolution of same-sex sexual behavior in primates? And if you are like listening to this in the car or somewhere with a low ceiling, watch out or open your sunroof because you will definitely punch a face.

So this article, it's actually really interesting. So if you remember, I talked about how when I was in excite therapy or conversion therapy, the scientists who had given the talk at the conference talking about how excite therapy could work actually published in this journal called the archives of sexual behavior. And it was this article that sort of was like, these patients says it worked. And so we're saying that it might work. And when I eventually sort of came up with this theory, I was able to actually publish it in that same journal. And I was like, hahahaha, so that was sort of fun. That's amazing. Yeah, that's amazing.

Yeah, I was really excited today. Honestly, one of the things that I like about this format that I've been able to publish and it's called the target article called now experts are sort of weighing in on it. And I'm going to be able to go back in and be like, OK, let me clarify this. But it's been interesting because the general theory that I had, and this is something that I even started thinking about when I was an undergrad too. Because when I was an undergrad, I found out that not only do these TRPC to knock out my show, these same-sex sexual behaviors, but humans lost the TRPC to Jean a long time ago. What? Yes.

And so I was like, to me, my young queer mind, I was like, what, what about this? How can no one be thinking about this? Why do you want like being like, oh, my goodness. And I was just slipping out and everyone around me was just like, calm down. Yeah, no, you're not going to calm down. That's amazing. Oh, my God. And so eventually this target article sort of came out of that.

And it was really awesome to write because I really had to look at a lot of different fields, everything from like archaeology to things like neuroscience and genetics. And I really just tried to focus on the basic science of it. What I think is really interesting and what I sort of allude to in my article is the idea that if we've been evolving with same-sex sexual behaviors for so long, then things like ex-gay therapy just simply don't make any scientific sense. Right. And not to mention that it's an incredibly like emotionally invasive and traumatic experience. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.

It's something that I still struggle with every day, honestly. It's not necessarily something that disrupts my day, but there are moments probably every day in which I think about that and think about how it hurt me. If you are fortunate and privileged enough to not know what conversion therapy entails, consider yourself lucky. I'm not here to re-traumatize anyone, so I won't go into some of the historical horrors physically, surgically, emotionally that have been exercised on people. But some of the lightweight techniques include so-called therapies, prayer groups, and peer pressure and more. Study after study has debunked it as the ultimate flim flam. Changing a person's sexual orientation through outside pressure or medical techniques is not effective. It's pseudoscience, it's harmful, it's tragic, and in my vernacular, it is extremely shitty and awful.

And to be able to publish something to contradict the tool that was used to do that is how empowering is that. Yes, very cathartic. Yeah, does that kind of mean genetically that humans as a species are like more queer than other species? And is that, I mean, is there something kind of affirming about that? Yeah, absolutely. You know, I love, I was just reading through a friend of mine's recent papers, Dr. J. Bedar Garcia. And then they had a really interesting idea that when you have same-sex behaviors, it doesn't necessarily reduce the number of different sex interactions that can lead to offspring.

So not all different sex interactions are actually going to lead to an offspring, to producing offspring. I mean, anyone who's been on a dating app knows that, am I right? So how long have humans been functionally, biologically, wonderfully, a little queer? Or a lot queer? And so the idea is that this appeared 25 million years ago when the TRPC-2 gene was lost. And that's what I suggest in my article that same-sex sexual behavior appeared then. And it's been evolving along with us that entire time. What that sort of suggests is that both heterosexuality and homosexuality are really just any queer identities.

They developed in tandem. So when we have heterosexuality, presumably developing, evolving as individuals started to want to pair up in order to have offspring together or raise offspring, to express love for sex, for emotional support, for resources, the whole time that the different sex behavior was guiding that same sex behavior was present as well. All through time, picture an era, any era, any kind of hats or mustaches, and many, many people in it were thinking, This is sort of where I like to go back to sort of those really simplistic basic ideas in science where we have this idea of called parsimony, where the simplest explanation is the most sound. So to me, it doesn't make sense to assume that sort of heterosexuality and non-heterosexual identities developed like completely separately

and somehow exactly the same individuals that your attraction is to follows my mind. I'm like, how could you possibly think that? No, it has to have been that both of these things developed together and all these aspects are simply influenced by your attraction. But the heterosexual identity itself is very similar to non-heterosexual identities in all these factors. And so to me, it just doesn't make sense to say, like, oh, yeah, there's like a completely different evolutionary trajectory that would have had to happen to create non-heterosexual identities. Right. And how are hormones affecting who we're attracted to? That's a really good question. And you know, I love, and actually Dr. Cynthia Jordan, she co-runs a lab and the other individual that is part of the lab is Dr. Breedlaw.

And he's shown these differences between finger digit ratios between lesbians and straight women. And this has been suggested to influence by hormones themselves. So the digit ratio could be influenced by the hormone levels in development, period. And so what we see in males is similar to what we see in lesbian women. So that suggests that the hormone levels that are influencing the digit ratio in males that are heterosexual is also influencing lesbians that are is also influencing lesbians. So lesbians who are lesbians. Yes, lesbians.

Yes, exactly. And so the it's just interesting because I like that he is very open about the idea that this is average, huge averages. And I think one of the things that I learned from Dr. Jordan's work really is the idea that different muscles in the body, in different areas of the body, are going to have different sensitivities to hormones. For funsies, you can look up the paper what neuromuscular systems tell us about hormones and behavior. Also just a fun fact. So alongside Dr. Cynthia Jordan, there is another author on the paper, a well-known biology of sexuality researcher, Dr. Mark Breedlove. Breedlove.

Yeah, one of the world's experts on mating behavior and sexual orientation is named Breedlove. Is the world a simulation? Am I talking into a hairbrush and hallucinating that I have a podcast? We'll never know. Dr. Jordan really had this close study that looked at these two muscles in the body and one related to sort of sexual behaviors and one not so much. And the sensitivity to certain hormones like testosterone is different based on sort of their function. And this can also vary between individuals. So sort of combining the work of Dr. Jordan and Dr. Breedlove, you can sort of see that the idea is basically rather than one specific period of hormones leading to a lesbian identity,

there's likely many variations of hormone levels available at specific periods or the absence of hormones at different periods. All these different factors can't, or even how sensitive one individual is within a brain region versus another individual. And these all can influence the development of individuals far beyond sort of like, oh yeah, it's this one period that will make you gay if you're gay. Yeah, when it comes to the age old nature versus nurture question, is that even a valid question? Oh no, not at all. It's my word. I think that's just a silly question these days because it is just constantly been shown that specifically for humans and our brains, absolutely, our brains develop to work in the environment that we are in. So our brains are just super plastic, meaning that they're ready to be changed. I've heard things about pregnant women who have had boys, if they've had a few boys that their body is trying to combat a certain amount of testosterone and that they're statistically more likely to have boys who are queer.

Is that even a thing or maternal hormone levels even influential in the brain like that? Ah, okay, I asked about pregnant women and maternal testosterone. Hello, hi Ward, what trans men can have babies and so could non-binary folks. I looked back and was like, oh darn it. So I'm sorry for fumbling that question. Thank you all for letting me learn in front of you. I love you. Also Daniel phrases it as gestational parent, which I think is really cool and inclusive.

So Daniel and I emailed afterward about these testosterone factors and they said, the evidence for testosterone exposure in the womb is all based on things like, we see this in men and assume it's because of high testosterone in the womb and we see it in lesbian women too. So maybe testosterone exposure makes some people gay. No one has actually measured testosterone levels, they say. Daniel continues, first evidence, for gay men, the more older brothers you have, the more likely you will be gay. Theory is pregnant people may gain anti-male factors from male pregnancies, leading younger brothers from the same gestational parent exposed to increasing levels

of anti-male antibodies for each older brother. And these anti-male antibodies might prevent testosterone from masculinizing the fetus. Now second evidence, Daniel continues, finger digit ratios and homosexuals match different sex heterosexual peers at the population levels. So theory, some evidence suggests testosterone level exposure in the womb changes finger digit ratios. That's the length ratio between two different fingers. And this suggests that testosterone sets up normal attraction, normal isn't quotes, in heterosexuals, but the process appears, quote, opposite in homosexuals.

Daniel continues, my own interpretation of these data is that sex and sexual orientation are partially uncoupled. Similar but very complex processes can lead to similar attractions, regardless of sex assigned at birth. There's even variation within these processes, as gay men show what might be considered hypermasculization in some features. Fun fact, Daniel notes, studies suggest that cis gay men have longer penises than cis straight men on average. Daniel continued with some additional fun facts. So Dr. Ashton Swift-Galant, she does really cool work on the androgen receptor. And this is another area where variation can occur. So individuals with specific types of androgen receptors actually show variability in the sex position they prefer in anal sex.

Oh, really? Yeah. And so that's, I think what the study though really points to is this idea, once again, of variation. That while there is this sort of possible explanation, there still is just a lot of unexplained data. And I think Dr. Swift-Galant does just a phenomenal job of making sure of that point, knowing that, you know, it's important to think beyond the single factors that are within a research paper. Right. And in your scientific opinion, perhaps, is everyone a little queer? I mean, I would say that I prefer to let people express their experiences, you know? Yeah. You're like every single person in your state. Yeah, that's a pretty broad question. But are more, or maybe are more people queer than maybe they realize?

I think absolutely. I think there are definitely people who are absolutely only attracted to opposite sex or different sex individuals. And I think there are people who are absolutely attracted to same sex individuals only. But I do think there are a lot of individuals who are in the middle there that, I mean, it's simply easier to live a heterosexual life. It just is that way. And if, honestly, if I had been given that choice when I was younger, I would have taken it. And I mean, now, obviously, I'm glad that I didn't have that choice. But I think that there's a lot to be said for social change, bringing about more individuals feeling comfortable to express their identities. And honestly, there's been quite a few studies related to gender identity that have shown a huge increase in the number of individuals within younger populations that identify outside the gender binary. And so one study even found something around like 12% of younger individuals, those, and I'm trying to remember the exact age range, but I believe it was under 21, identify outside of the gender binary.

And interestingly enough, the study also showed that looking at older populations that was really low, so in older populations, it was only about like 1% or less. And so just to see that there is this large change really sort of makes the need to sort of be reflective of this in science and be reflective of what kind of research we're doing in science. As we sort of gain a larger population. Yeah, absolutely. So how many people would choose an iced caramel macchiato when it's not on the menu and they didn't even know it's possible? But just because something isn't supported as an option in certain cultures or religions or institutions doesn't mean that that thing doesn't exist somewhere and that people wouldn't prefer them. So we've been given a menu with two options for too long. There are a lot of other drinks out there and they're wonderful.

Also, I found myself at 1am researching YouTube compilations titled Gender Reveal Parties Gone Wrong, in which like balloons full of blue powder pop in people's eyes and confetti guns hit toddlers and rural fireworks. Spark grass fires, but actually, I will be honest, the most disturbing part of all of it was just this weird consistent theme of the blue balloons getting cheers and shrieks of joy from the audience of the parties and then like the pink cake filling getting whales of mourning from soon to be siblings and like disappointed shrugs from dads. Because in that split second of knowing the sex of their child, they make a lifetime of assumptions about how that future child will behave and what they will offer them based on centuries of entrenched roles that we're all supposed to play. Little did they know, these gender reveals are just a misnomer. I mean, who knows what your kid's gender will be, only they do. Honestly, they're just revealing their sex. Yeah, yeah. Because you can't reveal someone's gender, it's really up to them.

But can you imagine if they just had like a crotch reveal party? Like it's really just a crotch reveal party. That's really what it is, yeah. Yes, that's all it is. Like from the sonogram, we can tell you the crotch of our baby. Okay, I have some questions from listeners. Is it okay to run through some like lightning round and ask you some? Yeah.

Is that cool? Of course. Also, for every episode we donate to a charity. I was thinking of maybe donating to the Marsha P. Johnson Institute. Great. I figured it was perfect for Pride Month. As you probably know, Pride started as a protest against police brutality. She was an amazing organizer, a brilliant activist.

She basically saw that basically the white gay men were saying, hey, we need to be nice about this and calm and respectable. And she and really the trans women of color were facing the worst of it, you know. Even though police were writing all gay bars, they were mostly targeting women of color, specifically trans women of color. And so these sort of respectability politics weren't gonna fly with the individual. We're in the thick of it. And so when she took a stand and she really started organizing,

she did this with another trans woman of color. So Sylvia Rivera was another individual that with Marsha P. Johnson really helped to build a social justice movement. And it is thanks to their efforts really and the police brutality that sort of changed the nation's view of the queer community as they saw these police sort of dehumanize this population. And that really helped to sort of shift the nation as well as really just started the LGBT rights movement. And we really owe all that we have in terms of rights to these trans women of color that sort of started basically what's going on right now.

And I really like the idea of supporting this group because they are specifically looking to support trans women of color and the black trans community. That's awesome. Oh, that's amazing. Thank you for telling me about that foundation. So since this is a two for one episode, we'll get to donate twice to the Marsha P. Johnson Institute. And according to their site, the P and her names stood for pay it no mind, which is what Marsha would say in response to questions about her gender. The Marsha P. Johnson Institute protects and defends the human rights of black transgender people. And they do this by organizing, advocating, creating an intentional community to

heal and developing transformative leadership and also promoting their collective power. So they were founded both as a response to the murders of black trans women and women of color and how that's connected to their exclusion from social justice issues, namely racial, gender and reproductive justice as well as gun violence. So a donation was made to MPJI to help keep funding their incredible community organizing and artists fellowships. And stay tuned next week when Dr. Fow takes all of your questions and there are some excellent ones. So you can follow them at ENDO, K-W-E-E-R on Twitter. We are at oligies on Twitter and Instagram. I'm at Ali Ward with one L on both. And there are going to be

more links up at aliward.com slash oligies slash neuroendocrinology. And if there's anything that you'd like to school me on, there's a contact form on my website. If there's a gender or orientation, I glaringly overlooked. Let me know. I'll make it up to you in the next episode. I just want to make sure that these episodes are as inclusive and correct in the representation because once again, I just love you all so much. So yes, that contact form is at aliward.com and oligies merch is available also at aliward.com. Thank you to Shannon Feltis and Bonnie Dutch of the Comedy Podcast. You are that for managing merch. We're still a few weeks behind our usual because of COVID. So thanks for being patient. The warehouses just have limited staff for maximum safety.

So thank you, Erin Campbell for admitting the oligies podcast Facebook group. Thank you, Emily White and the team of transcription heroes making transcripts accessible for free at aliward.com slash oligies slash extras. There are also bleeped episodes for kiddos up there. Thank you to bleeper Caleb Patton. Thank you, Noel Dilworth for all of your scheduling help. Kelly Dwyer updates the website. Thank you, Jared Sleeper of Mind Gem Media who does initial edits and also sometimes carries me to bed when I fall asleep on the couch. And of course, to a flower crowned gem, Stephen Ray Morris, who lead edits and uploads these into your ears. The theme music was written and performed by Nick Thorburn of the band Islands. If you stick

around to the very end of the credits, end of the episode, I tell you secret. And a lot of new listeners are like, why does this lady with the uncombed hair call herself our dad? And it started because I like to talk about old cars and bugs and give like loving advice. But I just, I have never felt like a mom. And like I was going to be a mom or I should be a mom. And I, I don't know, I think part of why I'm child free is that I just never felt like that role was right for me. I really wanted to be a dad, but I just never kind of wanted to be a mom. So maybe I didn't think I could handle it. I don't know. And I've always been pretty sure I'm straight, but that doesn't mean I don't think ladies are hot. And that gets confusing. And honestly, I feel like a whole lot

of people feel this way, but just have not had words for it. So if you feel like you don't fit into one box or another, don't worry, you are not weird. Having two very rigid boxes to describe the nuances of humanity and love and self expression is what's weird. So be patient and supportive of everyone being open and honest with themselves in the world. The people who are moving these discussions forward by being brave about themselves, they are the ones making it easier for the next generation to know themselves better and to be themselves fully. And I thank you all for that. Okay, per bye. See you next week with part two. Okay, per bye again.