Ologies with Alie Ward - Neuroendocrinology (SEX & GENDER) Part 2 with Daniel Pfau

Episode Date: June 24, 2020

The wonderful neuroscientist and endocrinology researcher Dr. Daniel Pfau is back for Part 2 to answer listener mail about how hormones affect our moods, the variation of gender expression, queer lizards, how a strict gender binary is harmful to entire populations, hormone replacement therapy, hormones in sports, gender dysphoria, additional info on the Gender Unicorn and more. They remain just charming and kind and this episode will help you further understand just how many ways there are to be human. Also: it’s okay to take a mental health day once in a while. Follow Dr. Daniel Pfau at Twitter.com/endokweer A donation went to MarshaP.org Sponsor links: HelloFresh.com/ologies60; Behr.com/express; LinkedIn.com/ologies More links at alieward.com/ologies/Neuroendocrinology Transcripts & bleeped episodes at: alieward.com/ologies-extras Become a patron of Ologies for as little as a buck a month: www.Patreon.com/ologies OlogiesMerch.com has hats, shirts, pins, totes and STIIIICKERS! Follow twitter.com/ologies or instagram.com/ologies Follow twitter.com/AlieWard or instagram.com/AlieWard Sound editing by Jarrett Sleeper of MindJam Media & Steven Ray Morris Theme song by Nick ThorburnSupport the show: http://Patreon.com/ologies

Oh, hey, it's still your uncle who swears that you can cook fish in the dishwasher and you're still like, that's okay, I'm okay. Allie Ward, back for part two of an exciting and timely and proud episode of oligies. Part two, it's the follow-up episode to part one in which our amazing oligists covered gender and biological, sex-assigned at birth and hormones and genes and brain structure and sexual preferences and gender unicorns and so much more. So definitely start with that episode. If you landed on this one first, just hop, skip and jump back to that one and then just

go ahead and leap on back here for part two, featuring all kinds of questions from patrons of the show. So side note, thank you to everyone on Patreon.com slash oligies who makes it possible for this podcast to happen. Thanks to everyone tweeting and gramming about the show and rating it and subscribing it and leaving reviews to keep it up in the charts and also so that I can read a new one each week, such as this one from A. J. Wall Smith who says, let me start with the embarrassing fact that I've been attempting to write this review for the better part of six whole literal

months but have failed continuously due to the sole fact that I can't adequately express my love for this podcast. They also said a bunch of other nice things. It was absolutely worth the wait. I loved it. Okay, neuroendocrinology. Part two, your questions. So this awesome oligist took a break from quarantine parenting, their three adorable kiddos.

Thank you to their partner by the way for this time with them and chatted with me on a warm May day. You may hear their AC faithfully rumbling in the background and there are fewer asides in this episode than usual. I just kind of wanted to let the conversation breathe. So get ready for a great talk about gender and chromosomes and hormones and transitioning and how to raise a kid who feels free to be themselves and TV shows that get it right and how science can include transgender and non-binary folks in studies and dysphoria

and authenticity and more with once again the charming, candid, patient and lovely neuroendocrinologist Dr. Daniel Fow. We have some questions. Ashley Coughfen asked, are there more than two genders? I remember in anatomy my teacher talking about males who are XX and females who are XY. Is this a thing? But as we were talking before, gender and sex are different. Yeah, it's interesting because when we start talking about sex and people talk about chromosomes,

it's actually much more complicated than that. So on the Y chromosome, the one thing that's really sort of important is this gene called the S-R-Y gene and it's sort of the testes determining factor or testes determining gene. And when a person has the S-R-Y gene, the development of their gonads will shift towards developing into testes. And so this is a gene that activates downstream effects that will eventually lead to the testes and those testes will start producing the hormones that are typical of a male. In other areas, there are other genes that control this process.

So for example, there's the DAX1 gene and DAX1 is a gene that is actually going to push gonadal development towards ovaries. And so it's really interesting because people talk about like, oh yeah, XY, XY, but you have genes on other chromosomes that influence sex development. So we have the S-R-Y gene that will lead to testes development, but then we also have the DAX1 gene that will lead to ovaries development. And so even if an individual does have that S-R-Y gene, that's going to be like, hey, make testes, make testes, make testes.

If you have this double DAX mutation, you'll have two DAX genes and it'll end up overwhelming that S-R-Y signal. And so an individual with double DAX and S-R-Y will develop ovaries. And so it's a lot more complicated than just sort of looking at these singular chromosomes themselves. And one of the things that is also really interesting, I think, is the idea that the anterodermisceptor gene, which allows testosterone to have its effects, is actually on the X chromosome. Oh.

Well, look at that. I know. So we always think of these things as like, oh yeah, that's the female chromosome. But it has the receptor for testosterone molecules. So. Wow. And so I mean, oh, that's fascinating. Yeah.

It's really interesting to sort of break down these ideas and really a lot of things have come from basically, the patriarchy basically has sort of reduced the complexity of sex development such that we see male development is very active and processed, whereas becoming a female was really considered more passive and so we're seeing that that's not true at all. Yeah. I love that bit. Whereas like patriarchal science is like, well, a woman is what occurs when the biology

is lazy and nothing happens but default. It takes a lot of energy to become a man. Exactly. No, very, very true. So the era of assigning value or judgment to a person based on the shape of their body parts will hopefully be a thing in the past for humans someday soon. So what is happening in the out of doors in the forests and the deserts and the animal kingdom?

There are animals that obviously have different sex chromosomes. So like in lizards and birds, but at the same time, they have these interesting differences within sexes. So in whipped-tail lizards, they have, there's one species that it's all female and so all these female lizards actually are reproducing, but through a process called parthenogenesis where they actually just clone themselves. This one specific species, they don't do this unless they have another female of their species perform this sort of mounting ritual that's typical of species where there's two sexes.

Oh my God. Yeah. And so these females, they're all females, but I mean, you would typically in science, you sort of reduce the idea of male and female to simple ideas like you're saying chromosomes or even simply behaviors like, oh, this males will mount, females won't. But here we have an example in these lizards where these females are mounting and it's somehow in some way leading to reproduction. Okay.

I look this up and it's the New Mexico Whip-Tail Lizard. And according to my friend, worker Pertia, the Whip-Tail engages in mating behavior with other females of its own species, giving rise to the common nickname lesbian lizards. One theory is that this behavior stimulates ovulation as those who do not do not lay eggs. So you grind in, you grab it, rolls. Have people sketched up pride tattoos featuring these quote, leaping lesbian lizards? They have and they're spectacular. Now I asked Daniel what the evolutionary benefit is of everyone carbon copying their genes,

which let's be honest, you know, at least one person in your life who absolutely would just clone themselves because why mess with perfection? There's definitely benefits to both sexual reproduction and cloning. So for one, sexual reproduction, as you say, is really going to help ensure that more genes are brought in or bad genes are gotten rid of, but that can occur when they're cloning them. But also when you're cloning, it also ensures that, like for example, if they're doing great, they're doing a great job.

They don't need to change anything, the environment's stable, everything's been good. Sexual reproduction can be quite costly and so just cloning yourself can be a lot easier. And if things are going well, you don't really need to be addressing all those other issues by changing your genetics around. And so obviously that's not always true and so some species of woodtail lizards can actually switch between being this like parthenogenic animal to having sexual reproduction. Oh, that's so interesting. Parthenogenesis, side note, creepily translates to virgin birth.

So maybe it's time to replace that word. I don't know. One thing that is replaceable, hormones. Take it from someone with broken ovaries who replaces their estrogen and testosterone. Now other folks had questions about gender-affirming hormone replacement therapy or HRT, such as Katie Stomps, Tamara Mann, Joe Porfino, Ronan, Tay, Kelly Seyman, Elizabeth Rich, Marissa Laws, Celestina Garcia, Rachel, Sophia Dill, and Ali Datword von Podcast. So I wanted to know about latest research.

Let's see. I have some questions about HRT too. Katherine Gilbert asked, is my husband doomed to stab himself forever to get his hormone or is there hope for something better? That is a great question and one I've been asking myself and honestly in my future research I am hoping to look for new therapy options in HRT and I think it's been a really long time coming. For the transgender community, basically the treatment has remained unchanged since its

inception. Right. We've sort of added a few more things like specific molecules that can block the angiotrine receptor but honestly these don't just specifically block the angiotrine receptor. They can have off-target effects and these HRT itself really hasn't been studied outside of humans. There's about four research articles out that actually look at animal models of HRT. Oh really?

Which like mammals mostly? So what they're doing is basically looking at mice and what they would do is provide HRT treatment as they would a human. So these animals were, in terms of the model, it was a masternizing HRT model and so these mice that were XX were treated with masculine hormones but they also took a look at what would happen if they introduced low levels of femoenohorns. So they rescued some of the issues that appear during HRT. So they're able to prevent bone density loss.

They were able to prevent some issues related to atherosclerosis and individuals who might be at risk for heart disease and so these kinds of studies can do a lot to really help our understanding of transgender medicine and that's the kind of work that I'm really hoping to do in the future. Oh for sure. Rachel asked, with testosterone and HRT there are some permanent irreversible changes that happen to the vocal cords. Are there any permanent body changes that happen during HRT that estrogen influences?

Yeah, I mean, so one of the things about HRT is we really don't have a lot of longitudinal studies that show us exactly what does and does not happen and one of the reasons why I'm a really big advocate for looking in animals is because doing longitudinal studies where we are able to look in aged populations of mice, it takes a much shorter time and it's much better to do to animals so mice grow up much faster than humans and right now we can only really look at the transgender population to gain an understanding of that. We haven't done anything beyond that and so our understanding right now is very limited simply because it's difficult to do those kinds of studies and if we want to improve

HRT then it's going to have to take more than just looking to the transgender community to sort of do the work in a way. So more people working on this would be boss. So many people would say, hey, thanks for giving a shit about how HRT affects alive people. Love your trans, non-binary, and even pod dad friends, broken ovaries. I am on estrogen patches and for a long, for a couple of years, I didn't have a doctor that asked about what my testosterone was doing and it turned out that it was like,

I had like untraceable levels, like none. As testosterone, what effects does it tend to have neurologically? And we got a question from Sarah and Arstall who says estrogen makes them feel very down and depressed. They're on estrogen pills for painful periods and when I told my doc, she said that she was surprised and looked doubtful because estrogen is the happy hormone. Is she right or do we do all these hormones affect us neurologically in really different ways?

Oh, they definitely affect us different ways. Absolutely. Like I was saying earlier, we have variations and sort of sensitivities to different molecules and a study has even shown that the gay brain versus the straight brain and men reacts differently to testosterone. Really? Yeah. And so when they're looking at the brain in scans and they administer testosterone

is just a different response in terms of whether or not the individual is heterosexual or homosexual. And these kinds of differences are really sort of interesting, as you say, because it's sort of like every individual is going to sort of have differences in the way that these hormones interact with them. And I think that that, to me, is why I find hormones so fascinating. The receptors, we have whether or not certain areas of the body are sensitive, we even have the ability to change hormones and different hormones.

So being testosterone into estrogen or testosterone into DHT, which is the more stable form that's considered more powerful in terms of having an effect on cells. And so there's just so much variation that I think it's difficult to say any one hormone is going to be the happy hormone. You were talking to another doctor about serotonin and how, oh, it's the happy drugs. We think of SSRIs and the selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors and how those are able to treat depression, but serotonin does so much more than that. And it's the same with hormones.

They do so much in our body that it's really difficult to be like, oh, yeah, it's going to absolutely do this with you. I'm trying to think with progesterone, too. Where does progesterone fall in all of this? Oh, yeah. So progesterone is another sort of sex steroid hormone, and it's really interesting because in men and women, it has effects, but it's often really only discussed in women in terms of the reproductive cycle.

Yeah. And I was actually recently looking into androgens in sports. Oh, right. And one of the interesting things that I found out about was that the progesterone levels and not necessarily the levels, but when you compare levels of estrogen and testosterone and progesterone, when you're comparing those together, they sometimes have interesting effects when they're at different levels or varying levels. OK, we're going to get back to sports in a minute, but side note for folks on HRT or

birth control pills, I'm just going to use this moment as a tiny, tiny platform to mention that progesterone can make you real depressed if you happen to be prone to that, and in case you feel like you're losing your marbles. Well, I was going through ovarian failure, and I wasn't on the right HRT. I was on a progesterone supplement that I realized later was making me wish I could launch my body into the vast uninhabitable vacuum of space. So as a lot of people with uteruses know, we take all kinds of pills to make periods more regular, to not have babies when the time's not right, et cetera, and woo-hoo, Nellie.

Wow, that can affect you neuroendocrinologically. So can not having the right amounts naturally. Also, super side note, so Daniel sent me that incredible, wonderful diagram of the gender unicorn, and guess what, bonus, there was a second page. I never saw the second page, so I want to read it to you now because it's wonderful and helpful, and I should have read it the first time. It's amazing. Okay, so it gives awesome definitions.

Gender identity is one's internal sense of being female, male, neither of these, both, or another gender or genders. Everyone has a gender identity, including you, it says. For transgender people, their sex assigned at birth and their own internal sense of gender identity are not the same. Female, woman, and girl, and male, and man, and boy, are also not necessarily linked to each other, but are just six common gender identities. Gender expression or presentation, it says, is the physical manifestation of one's gender

identity through clothing and hairstyle and voice and body shape, et cetera. So most transgender people seek to make their gender expression, how they look, match their gender identity, who they are, rather than their sex assigned at birth. And sex assigned at birth, it says, is the assignment and classification of people as male, female, intersex, or another sex based on a combination of anatomy, hormones, and chromosomes. And I learned something new here. It says it's important that we don't simply use sex because of the vagueness of the definition

of sex and its place in transphobia. So sex assigned at birth is the way to express that. And chromosomes are frequently used to determine sex from prenatal careotyping, although not as often as genitalia, and chromosomes do not determine genitalia. So sex assigned at birth, that's a great thing to know. And sexually attracted to is another aspect, and that is sexual orientation. And it's important to note, it says, that sexual and romantic or emotional attraction can be from a variety of factors, including but not limited to gender identity, gender

expression or presentation, and sex assigned at birth. And then, of course, on the gender unicorn, there's also romantically and emotionally attracted to. And romantic and emotional orientation, it says it's important to note that sexual and romantic or emotional attraction can be from a variety of factors, including but not limited to gender identity, gender expression and presentation, and sex assigned at birth. So those are such good things to know, and an even better and whole representation of the gender unicorn.

So thank you, Daniel, for your very kind and gentle email saying, did you see the second page? An angel, here on Earth they are. Also when we originally were set to record this episode, I had to postpone a few days because it was during the time of curfews being imposed in LA, and I had missed going to the pharmacy several days in a row, because they closed early, to pick up my medications. And let's just say, my brain just opted instead to cry. We just shocked it up to a mental health day, and rain checked, and Dr. Daniel was so,

so understanding. Some days your brain just needs a timeout, which is very clunky segue back to athletics, which is what I promised at the top of this aside. Okay. Courtney Ross asked a question, how can science play a role in better addressing the divisions in sports over trans athletes? And Megan C would love to hear your take on this too. Yeah, you know, I really find it interesting that we focus so heavily on testosterone.

It's just one aspect sort of of this signaling cascade that obviously different aspects of the hormone system, like the receptors and what genes are expressed and all those kinds of things, they can really sort of affect that. So it's not just testosterone that affects sports, there are growth hormones and estrogen and thyroid hormones and cortisol. They're all ingredients in the juicy ambrosia that is our mind and body. Oh, but Chris Baumann and Shmii Thompson both said that they're non-binary, but in Chris Baumann's words, what does that mean with my brain chemicals?

It almost feels like I got a middle amount of hormones, but I don't know how that would be. So what about us, neither gender peeps? I honestly feel sort of like either I got none at specific times or I've got just like all of them all at the time, you know, for me, it's sort of a sort of a similar question. And I think what it really comes down to is just that there's variation and when it comes to science and the research that's coming out regarding the gender queer brain or the gendered brain or sexual orientation in the brain, we as queer individuals should be able

to simply look at them and say, hey, yeah, I really identified with that. Or, you know, that really doesn't sound like me. And honestly, in my opinion, I believe that we queer individuals probably have a pretty good idea about what's going on and should honestly trust ourselves and feel, I often say that like no science is needed to affirm queer experiences simply because we don't necessarily need evidence to believe what people are telling us. And so if a gender queer individual hears something about like, oh, yeah, during certain periods of development, you usually have low levels of hormones, but some individuals have

high levels and they're like, hey, that's sort of something that I think might be related to what happens to me. And it's like, absolutely. Yeah, that's a really awesome like exploration of your identity in my opinion. And I honestly do feel like that's a big choice, though, for each individual. So one of the things I often don't like is how scientists often sort of force this idea of biologically driven identities onto individuals. And so one of the things that really I struggled with in my own field is sort of this idea

of the transgender typology, which was a notion and that was developed a long time ago, sort of just assigning individuals that are transgender based on their biology and saying, like, oh, so we know this sort of biological development will lead to this kind of transgender individual. And we know obviously now that there's variation in the way that we're going to do it. There's variation. And and honestly, even if those individuals at the time didn't intend to say there were only two types, they were sort of the heads of the field. And so when other individuals who are not experts were reading that, I mean, obviously

they're going to be like, oh, there's only two types. And it's really frustrating because then I feel like a lot of queer individuals don't want to connect to science for those reasons. Right. And and I understand that completely. And so I think it's really beautiful for any queer individual to look at spirituality or religion or science to help them conceptualize and understand their identities. And I really do believe that, as I say, like queer people understand themselves.

And if they feel that some science aspect jives with them, then yeah, definitely. But if something doesn't, then no, don't don't let that guide your thinking or change your thinking if that's not what you identify with. Right. That's excellent. Don't need someone else's paper necessarily to tell you that what you feel is right or wrong. Felix had a great question. They say I'm a non-binary trans guy and so excited about this episode. There is a belief that beginning testosterone hormone replacement therapy makes a person

angrier and or more violent. Is this flimflam? Many trans guys say this isn't the case. Is the anger, etc. Just because you're going through puberty. Is it because of social expectations of men? Any thoughts on it? Yeah, I mean, several studies have shown that that's not true.

So yeah, it's not true that testosterone is going to lead to increased aggression. But there is something true to the sense of sort of suddenly having changes in hormones causing alterations in behavior. And and honestly, like you're talking about, it's it's one of those things where it's like a mental health, a mental health day that you might have to take simply because you're introducing your body to a whole new environment. And sometimes it's going to react in a weird way. Yeah.

And so if someone is saying like, oh, look at this example, this individual is on tea and they're acting this way, it's most likely that. But again, it all comes down to individuality. So if someone is saying like, hey, this testosterone is making me feel more aggressive, then I would believe them at the same time. I would never say that testosterone does make people more aggressive, because when we look at the research in general, it just isn't true. Right.

OK, so I had mentioned that my hormone factories have been shuttered, just cobwebs, strewn and rusted into premature antiquity. And yes, of course, I have a very cute estrogen patch stuck to my ass at all times, but also that means I get to rub medical grade testosterone cream into my sexy, crepey skin when I remember to use it. That's so interesting. Probably consistency with hormones is probably really important, says the person. No, no, I mean, our hormones vary so much, both across the day

and across our lives. Just just testosterone itself can vary from the morning to night. And we see that these kinds of variations are occurring in men and women, in all individuals, all people who have hormones. And so when we have these variations occurring, these big changes, we don't really understand them all too much. How does this work? Right.

And like I said, we focus on testosterone levels so much. But even when we're thinking about testosterone level, we don't know exactly why they're shifting so much and what influence these shifts have on, for example, say, sports and testosterone. Like if you're working out during a time of the day when you're testosterone is lowest, what does that mean? This is making me realize that I should definitely be more consistent. At least to get my body like a finding like I there are days when I'm like,

Oh, I haven't used my testosterone cream in like three days. What am I doing? And I'm like, I'm probably putting my brain through a little bit of you are inconsistent, but it's good to know that it just fluctuates in general. Yeah. And keeping it keeping it is keeping it on an equilibrium. And that's really what the hormones are doing is keeping you in an equilibrium. And so giving it the chance to do that is what's most important.

And if we're naturally varying so much, then then it's sort of important that we understand what's going on before we make any big assumptions. You know, yeah. And Evan, Evan Jude had a great question, trans non-binary person here. And and they say they're bipolar and they have been on a low dose of tea for about a year and a half. And despite being already properly medicated and under psychiatric supervision, I've noticed that my moods are way more stable.

Well, on tea, emotional regulation is so much easier for me. And I was actually able to decrease one of my medications. So I know that being on tea relieves some dysphoria, which contributes to less depression, but I know my mind well enough to know that that isn't the whole of it. And it definitely feels like a drop in my estrogen levels have has mellowed me out. And they've heard that other bipolar trans folks share similar experiences. Is there any basis to that, to something like bipolar and and hormone? You know, that's it's really interesting.

And I love that this individual is finding that testosterone is really helping them in that way. It's a lot of mental health issues are thought to be related to hormones, actually. So jewels, as they're going through puberty, oftentimes those are periods of development when mental health disorders might actually appear. Wow. And it's thought that it is related to sort of these hormone changes.

And and I do think there is something to be said within the transgender community in that simply taking these hormones and being able to to take them themselves is somewhat of a therapy in of itself. Absolutely. Yeah. I love how I had just become acquainted with Daniel an hour or so before, but they're so warm and smart and non-judgey and made me feel so comfortable about talking about neuro endocrinological issues, such as, for example, my busted ovaries and my glitchy anxiety.

And one way that they foster that is by being so authentically themselves and can't it like sharing their own health journey. So just so I have bipolar disorder, too. And I have an entity and when I did come out as genderqueer, I found that being authentic allowed me to really feel equipped to tackle the expectations that were put on me in a way. When I was identifying as a man, like. It stressed me out to feel like I needed to respond in a way

typical of a man, if that makes sense. Yes, absolutely. And I gave myself the freedom to identify as genderqueer and see myself as genderqueer in these situations. I felt more equipped and empowered to sort of handle these barriers, conceptualize them in a way that I could address. I could handle. I could handle. Yeah. And that authenticity and that freedom of authenticity is

kind of like an anxiolytic in and of itself, I imagine. I have anxiety disorder. My my therapist once said that a lot of anxiety can come from acting one way, but feeling another and that that pull and that frustration of feeling feeling the need to do something or say something that is inauthentic. That is what can cause a lot of anxiety. If you're, you know, suppressing frustration because you're not supposed to act frustrated that can cause.

So I can only imagine that on the scale of your entire identity in a society that is can be oftentimes on not understanding at best and hostile at worst, you know. Yeah. And oftentimes feel like science doesn't necessarily help. But like I've been thinking I've conceptualizing it recently, sort of the idea of like as a queer person trying to interact with science, we're giving, we're often given these limited options of our experiences. And so if we've been getting anything on email from the Trump

administration or anything on books, sometimes they have these like quizzes where they're like, how would you rate for the president's reaction to Blotty Blot? And the options they give you are like, A, perfect, B, not as perfect. C, the bare minimum for perfection. D, other. And he was like, oh, my goodness, my experience is not reflected in this quiz. That's exactly not exactly. But similar to what it feels like when you're trying to interact with science as a gender queer person, you're like, my experience is not reflected here.

Yeah. Oh, God, that's hilarious. And, you know, a ton of people had questions about dysphoria. OK, quick aside, what is dysphoria? Well, it can feel different at different ages for different people, but it boils down to a discomfort or a distress when embodying the gender assigned to you at birth and being comfortable only when in the role of your preferred or your true gender identity, which may include also not binary. And when experts say discomfort, that's kind of a mild expression.

Adults with gender dysphoria can feel stressed out and isolated, depressed at much higher rates than folks who are cisgender. And those are statistics that are staggering and heartbreaking. And experts note that the rigidity of social norms, air quotes, and gender roles contributes a lot to that. So transphobia kills, plainly put. This stuff is important for everyone to know and to care about. And there are so many trans and non-binary and LGBTQ

oligites, bisexual folks, asexual friends, aromantic friends. I see you and inclusion and a freedom to be yourself really, really matters. But getting back to dysphoria, patrons had questions such as Sophia Dill, Matthew Sparks, Seema G, George Farrar and first time question asker, Jules Hep, who phrased it. Any thoughts on the brain and gender dysphoria? It does me a babboozle every time. Is there something hormonally happening when it comes to dysphoria?

Is that is that effect serotonin? Does that affect anxiety levels? And also, do we know exactly kind of chemically where that comes from? Yes, so that's a good question. So I think that. Personally, I see gender as something that is somewhat intrinsic to an individual. So there are a lot of individuals who sort of conceptualize development as pathways. And to me, your gender is the pathway that is most easiest for you to travel along.

And it sort of becomes like a habit over time that you travel along that pathway. And so as you are developing your gender identity, if it isn't sort of in the same direction as, for example, your body or how society is interacting with you, then it can make you feel very much like dysphoric, and that sort of brings about that dysphoria. And in terms of the body, there's been some research that shows how there's associative areas in your brain,

sort of associative areas that connect who you are to your body. And in some trans individuals, it's been shown that there's weaker connections between these areas, and there are different ways you can sort of conceptualize this and sort of conceptualize it in a way that I think is very positive, is to say that the brains of trans individuals are working correctly, showing that there is a incongruence between their gender identity and what their bodies are, how society interacts with them. Really? Yeah.

Courtney Ryan said, question from their non-binary partner. Yeah, why do we feel dysphoria in some parts of our bodies, but not others? And this person's partner says, like, I know I'm not a woman and I hate my boobs, but I'm cool with my hips and butts. Why did I read that as butts plural? Can you imagine having a double-decker butt, like four butt cheeks? That would rule. Anyway, they said, hate the boobs, but.

Or my hips and butt, like what's going on in our brains that makes that happen. Do you think that those pathways might be kind of stronger to certain parts of the body in that way? Oh, no, absolutely. Honestly, I feel somewhat similar about certain things. So when we talk about the brain, like I was saying earlier, different parts of it develop at different times. So this, and like I was saying, sort of taking you back on my PI's work,

Dr. Jordan, and how, so there's different sensitivities and different ways that you can sort of tackle the problem. Yeah. And so when you are developing as an individual, you're, for example, your association with your body might be stronger at a certain point of development than it was at other points. So that when fat deposition was occurring in the hips and butt, it was like, oh, yeah, let's feel happy about this.

But then as soon as fat was like, let's go here to the chest. That's why a little bit things during that development here were like, oh, no, no, no, we don't want this. And I mean, like I said before, the variation aspect is what's most important. And honestly, we just don't know that much about it. OK, again, more research in this area is needed. How exciting is this? It's a new frontier of science and medicine and identity and sexuality

and freedom from gender roles that deep down nobody likes. When I was six, I dressed up of my own volition, a snake pliskin from Escape from New York, and it was one of the best days of my life. And Sisman, how annoying is it that our society says you're just not allowed to wear a skirt or lip gloss? Skirts are so comfortable and airy and fun to swish in. And lip gloss is hydrating and oftentimes very delicious. Expectations of our so-called gender norms are just harmful, soggy old garbage.

Last listener question, Travis Brooks says, my sister is trans and waited until her mid 30s to come out about it. Is there anything Travis, this listener can do as a parent to know if my child is trans sooner so that he or she doesn't have to struggle for as long? The advice I'd give, I guess, is to make sure that. People have the power to identify their power to live authentically in a way. So if if you give your child the opportunity to express themselves in a way that is most comfortable for them, then they should feel comfortable

saying what their gender identity is. And so you create that situation where your child feels comfortable discussing gender, discussing the aspects of their identity without fear. And when they when their identity sort of solidifies and that can happen really early, that can happen as early as five years old, then that will ensure that they're comfortable with sort of voicing that. And but there's no real way to sort of determine whether or not your child is one gender or the other.

It's something that they have to identify and express. But the best way to ensure that they're able to do that is to make sure that they feel safe doing some. So just always kind of have an have an open place for conversation and expression. Yeah, and I think actively discussing topics like gender identity. And, you know, I there's this show called Steven Universe, that I absolutely love because it really does a great job of showing gender diversity. And it's a kid's show, so it's a pretty rare thing.

Yeah. What did it call again? Steven Universe. Steven Universe. OK, I'm going to look that up. I was just going to ask if there are any movies that you feel like are getting it right. Oh, yeah, definitely. Rebecca Sugar is the producer and they are amazing. That's great. I want to look that up. OK, I looked it up and it's magic.

It's a world of gemstone, humanoid alien superheroes who bend gender roles and are strong and loving. And it also features a proposal that was more thrilling than anything you have seen on The Trash Bachelor. Sapphire, will you marry me? What? Marry you. Yeah, this way we can be together even more apart. This time being garden will be our decision.

What do you say? Of course. So, yes, Steven Universe on point. And Daniel also emailed me a follow-up note about making sure that the kiddos in your life feel free to express themselves. And if anyone wants to learn more about supporting transgender children, they should seek out information put out by transgender individuals or trans-led organizations.

And why that's important is that research shows that self-harming behavior is less common among trans folks who said that their family ties had remained strong after they came out. Transgender women of color in particular face higher rates of homicide, homelessness and incarceration. And in a lot of regions, there just are not legal protections for people based on gender expression and identity. And it's June 2020.

And in the US, we're still fighting rollbacks of protections to LGBTQ folks in health care. It's boggling. But on that note, each week we make a donation to a cause of theologist choosing and like last week's part one. This week, a donation is going to marshape.org, the Marshape Johnson Institute. And Marshape Johnson was an advocate and a black trans woman responsible for so much social progress that led to the Pride Movement.

So this episode is dedicated to her memory and to all of the strength and contributions that black trans women and men and non-binary people have made in establishing traditions of pride and for the effect that that's had on our culture. And the Marshape Johnson Institute protects and defends the human rights of black transgender people by organizing, advocating, developing, transformative leadership and promoting collective power. And they were founded both as a response to the murder of black trans women and women of color and how that's connected to their exclusion

from social justice issues, namely racial, gender and reproductive justice, as well as gun violence. So a donation was made to MPJI to help keep funding for their incredible community organizing and artist fellowships, which was made possible by sponsors of the show. OK, wrapping up. And what's the most frustrating thing about your work or the most annoying thing about lab work or emails or fighting bigotry? I can't.

I mean, this is a question I ask every episode, but it seems like an incredibly stupid one to ask. No, it's a good question, I think, especially for individuals who often have to face barriers. Yeah, I think one of the most difficult things about my field is seeing scientists complain when the transgender community speaks out against them. And so it's sort of this constant thing where people are like, like, oh, are we allowed to do research on the transgender community? And I'm like, yes, if you listen to them and I just don't understand

because it feels like every time the transgender community says, hey, wait, this research puts us in a negative light. Researchers are like, oh, gosh, I guess I can't research you. It's such an eldest reaction to me. It's like, oh, OK, wait, how can we fix it so that we can do research that you won't be upset about? They're just like, oh, I guess we can't do research, but we're going to do it anyway and ignore you again.

Right. Right. And I continually see these articles by scientists being like, we should allow to research the community. And and obviously there are individuals within the transgender community that are getting it wrong and they're not necessarily being helpful in terms of being like, hey, this kind of research is not OK and this kind of research is. But at the same time, it's like you could easily alter your methods so that you're including members of the transgender community in the studies

and simply relying on your own conceptualization and the wording that you would use and the your own idea of what the transgender experience is. For sure. When you were saying like some types of research is just not cool the way they've gone about it or their their methods and others is like consider it and and. Yeah, so one example is the idea of rapid onset gender dysphoria. And so this is an idea that came out about study

that was done on a population of parents who were trying to sort of understand their children's coming out as a specific gender identity. So these parents were like, oh, goodness, yeah, their other friend and this friend and this friend, they all know each other and are suddenly identifying as gender queer or transgender or expressing that they have gender dysphoria. And so they were suggesting that it was sort of the social contagion.

Is the social contagion theory that was being put forth and the transgender community quickly rose up and was like, no, that's bullocks. Like this is probably what's happening. Remember that you were just looking at parents. You weren't actually talking to trans people. There's a lot more variation than what you're suggesting here. And really, the researchers came back and they were just like, well, we think this is a phenomenon worth discussing.

And it's like, why not just come back and be like, OK, what should we do? Right. It's like it would be the simplest thing in the world. But they just they simply can't bring themselves, I think, to put transgender individuals on the same level as them. Right. And I think that that seems like such a huge barrier is when people put their defensiveness before inclusion, when people put their need to be on the right side of things before the feelings of the people that they're including

or that they they should be including. And I think that there's in the most malignant forms of of discrimination against it is, you know, people who make light of pronouns or people who express their own frustration with not being educated enough or people express frustration because they're ignorant because they haven't been exposed to or taught or they haven't sought out the right, you know, the the inclusive information. And I think a lot of people focus on being

upset that they were caught doing it wrong instead of understanding that it's how right they could get it. Like they're focusing on their bad feelings if they mess up instead of like how good they can make people feel just by including them, you know. Absolutely. And I think I think, too, that there's this sort of amount of like pride that scientists have with their work. Like, oh, I've created this new knowledge. And when someone sort of is like, that's horrible, you're wrong.

You're talking about, I think a lot of scientists sort of bulk at that. And really feel like, like, oh, well, I am the expert, but no, transgender people are the experts on their experiences. Right. Absolutely. So I know I just want to pipe up and thank all of the oligites who have messaged me over the years and told me what it means to hear themselves acknowledged in media. And after I was super uninformed and made the gynecology episode

about women's health, that episode went up and you taught me so much about gender identity and opened up my whole world. And that is a privilege that I'm grateful for every day. So if you want to be an ally or an accomplice to any marginalized group, stop thinking, I'll get canceled if I do it wrong. That's not it at all. You will make so many people happy when you understand how good it feels to be included.

And when you switch to that motivator, it feels so pure and so expansive. It's genuinely so rewarding. So operating from a place of love for each other and not fear is the whole name of the game. And even if you didn't know better on something or you messed up, think of anyone who corrects you is giving you an upgrade to your operating system, making you even better than you were the day before. Learning about people is just one of my favorite things

and thank you to everyone who has spent your energy on the emotional labor of teaching others. We are grateful for that. Speaking of favorite things, I know this is going to be hard, but your favorite thing about neuroendocrinology. Neuroendocrinology. Yes, neuroendocrinology. So many syllables.

What is your favorite thing about what you do? Honestly, I really. There are times when I can go to posters at conferences and I just get goosebumps because I find what they're doing so interesting. And honestly, it's almost always like really basic things. And one of my favorites was learning about the pineal gland. Oh, yeah. And so you actually had when you were talking about the narrow

chemists about the lizard brain, quote on. Yes. And I love that they were like, no, no, no, it's not a lizard brain because the lizard brain is really cool in and of itself. And if you remember, they talked about how the cortex in the lizard is very small. So we do the lizards do have a cortex, but it's much more reduced. And on top of their cortex is this little pineal gland. And it is something that was helping them with their circadian rhythm. So it releases hormones based on the time of day.

So when the pineal gland is on top of the cortex, there's actually enough light that gets through the thin brain of these lizards that it's actually able to detect light and signals. And in fact, some lizards have what's called a pineal eye, which is like this little thin area of the bone and sort of an opening where the pineal gland can be directly exposed to the ambient light. And in other animals like fish, they have a stock that allows the pineal gland to get to a place where it can sense light.

And so I find it really interesting because this hormone gland had to switch how it worked, because as our cortex developed, like I said, it sits on the top of the cortex and lizards as a cortex got bigger. So like in humans, it's squished that pineal gland all the way into the center of our brains. And so instead of being able to directly see through a pineal eye or through a thin skull, we actually tell our pineal gland information through our retina. Oh, wow.

Cool evolution that happened with this hormone secreting organ that relates to lizards, my favorite things to the evolution of the brain. I just I don't know why I find that story so fascinating. And I just it just I find it so cool. And so just getting to learn how the brain works as your job. Does that ever feel kind of surreal? Like I get to it's my job to ask questions about the brain. Oh, absolutely.

Yeah, it still feels somewhat surreal that I'm a doctor. Yeah, I love I love that as soon as they're like, OK, doctor, you're like, everyone come here, doctor. Yes, that gender neutral honorific. Yes, please. It's the best. Oh, my gosh, this has been just so awesome talking to you. Thank you so much for talking to me for so long.

I'm sorry, I had so many questions. Oh, no, you're fine. This is great is been a great respite from screaming children. Tell your partner, thank you so much for letting me borrow you for this long. And we'll do. So as always, ask smart neuroscientists hernest questions because they know a whole boatload about our brains. And you can follow Dr. Daniel Fow at Endo Queer, K-W-E-E-R on Twitter.

And you can see more about the Marsha P. Johnson Institute at MarshaP.org. There are links to all those as well as to the sponsors and the show notes. We are at oligies on Twitter and Instagram. I'm at Allie Ward with 1L on both. There will be more links up at alleyward.com slash oligies slash neuro endocrinology. Easier to spell than to say. Allie's merch is available at alleyward.com as well.

Thank you, Shannon Feltis and Bonnie Dutch of the Comedy Podcast. You are that for managing merch. Thank you, Ernie Campbell Talbert for admitting the oligies podcast Facebook group, which is all cotton candy and rainbows. Thank you to Emily White and the team of transcription heroes making transcripts. Those are accessible for free at alleyward.com slash oligies dash extras. There are also bleeped episodes for kiddos up there. I'll link those in the show notes.

Thank you to bleeper Kayla Patton. Thank you, Noel. For all of your scheduling help, Kelly Dwyer updates the website. And thank you, Jared Sleeper of Mind Gem Media and the Mental Health Podcast. I'm a good, bad brain for assistant editing. And of course, to a magical gemstone unicorn superhero, Stephen Universe Reymorris, who lead edits and uploads this into your ears. And the theme music was written and performed by Nick Thorburn of the Band Islands.

And if you stick around to the end of the episode, I tell you a secret. Sometimes you want to hear it. Sometimes you don't. I tell you anyway. This week, my secret is that some anonymous oligite mailed me six cans of smoked oysters. And I'm going to eat at least one of them. Room temperature with a tiny fork standing over the sink as soon as I get this episode up. Also, fireworks have been absolutely bananas all over the country.

And I don't not have conspiracy theories about it, but tales for another time. I love you. You're beautiful. Be who you are. Happy pride. Black lives matter. Trans lives matter. Your voice matters.

Okay. Bye-bye.