Ologies with Alie Ward - Pomology (APPLES) with Susan K. Brown

Episode Date: October 18, 2023

Green, yellow, striped, red, shiny, russet. Tart, sweet, sour, crunchy. Big, small, wild, heirloom, cultivated. How will you like them apples? Very much, once you hear all about the fascinating backstory of how an apple got into your lunch with one of the world’s finest pomologists and geneticists, the incredibly knowledgeable and charming Dr. Susan K. Brown, a professor at Cornell University's AgriTech division.  Fill your baskets with apple picking tips, genetic mash ups, taste test requirements, DNA trivia, compost treasures, maggot babies, the animal dung that changed history, how to have your own orchard, the sweet taste of science redemption, the loudest apple crunch on record, and what you’re actually tasting when you enjoy this feat of breeding. You’ll forever appreciate this everyday fruit. View Dr. Susan K. Brown’s publications on ResearchGateVisit websites for apples developed by Dr. Brown: RubyFrost and SnapDragonThe Apple Lover’s CookbookA charity will be linked soonMore episode sources and linksSmologies (short, classroom-safe) episodesOther episodes you may enjoy: SPOOKTOBER episodes, Ciderology (DELICIOUS APPLE BEVERAGES), Cucurbitology (PUMPKINS), Dendrology (TREES), Gustology (TASTE), Benthopelagic Nematology (DEEP SEA WORMS),  Food Anthropology (FEASTS), Indigenous Cuisinology (NATIVE FOODS), Black American Magirology (FOOD, RACE & CULTURE)Sponsors of OlogiesTranscripts and bleeped episodesBecome a patron of Ologies for as little as a buck a monthOlogiesMerch.com has hats, shirts, stickers, totes!Follow @Ologies on Twitter and InstagramFollow @AlieWard on Twitter and InstagramEditing by Mercedes Maitland of Maitland Audio ProductionsTranscripts by Emily White of The WordaryWebsite by Kelly R. DwyerTheme song by Nick Thorburn

Oh hello, it's that landscape artwork you made at a paint and sip event six years ago. Alley Ward and hey, it's fall. It's creepy, it's spooky, it's apples. Listen, okay, we've got scarier subjects coming up this month, but I thought after our two-parter on which culture we needed to lace up our worn-up leather boots. We're a scarf, and even though it's too hot for it, head to an imaginary orchard to chat with someone who's about to narrate every apple experience you have for the rest of your life I love her. So she's a professor at the School of Integrative Plant Science, Horticulture at Cornell University.

She got a bachelor's and a master's in plant science and a PhD in genetics, and now leads Cornell's Apple breeding program. One of the largest fruit breeding programs in the world. And we're going to get to it. But first, thank you so much to everyone wearing new Spuctober Allegies merch from AllegiesMurts.com. Thanks to all the patrons supporting and submitting questions at patreon.com slash Allegies and the folks who leave reviews.

I read everyone, such as this ripe, juicy submission from Georgie Quarkery, who wrote, ''Ologies is the embodiment of nerds are cool. In fact, this pod highlights that nerds are thrilling, diverse, sexy, wholesome, and quirky. Georgie and the rest of us big dorks. Thank you for those reviews. We are all of those things.'' And those reviews really make my day, and they help the podcast so much. Irene Mal, so keep in common. Okay, palmology, it's a real word and it's a discipline. And yeah, it comes from the Latin palm for fruit and it can be applied to the whole branch of botany that involves edible things.

But palmology is typically used when talking about apples. And this expert is as knowledgeable and as charming as they come. So get ready for apple picking tips, genetic mashups, taste test requirements, tart versus sour versus astringent, wild apples versus domesticated, recipe tips, oxidation, anticipation, and frustration in the nation, DNA trivia, compost treasures, maggot babies, the animal dung that changed history. How to have your own orchard, the sweet sweet taste of

scientific redemption. Keeping doctors away, the sweet, sweet taste of scientific redemption, keeping doctors away the loudest apple crunch on record, and what you're actually tasting when you enjoy this feat of breeding with professor, fruit geneticist, and pomeologist, Dr. Susan K. Brown. So excited to talk to you of all the Apple experts in the world. I was most excited to talk to you. So when you said yes, I was over the moon.

It's like, yes, this is great. So thank you for making time, especially during the harvest or apple season, at least I think it is. But it's harvest season and my daughter gets married a week from tomorrow. Oh my gosh. Okay. We'll make this quick. No, no, no, it's okay. So she's having a fall wedding. Yes, which everybody said that that would be mutiny in their family, but you know, what, what a true only daughter you say, okay, not good timing, but we'll do it. Is she a fall person? Um, I think everybody is when you're in upstate because it's so beautiful here. It's gorgeous. Yeah.

I wasn't sure being from, you know, Southern California where we have essentially like one and a half seasons. I wasn't sure when Apple harvesting actually is. I want to say it's around now because that's when we used to go to Apple farms in orchards with my kid in northern California. But when is like picking season? Okay, so it can start as early as August, but commercial, you know, people really don't usually go to the orchards until September, but the peak, the big weekend is a Columbus Day weekend. Just to say, now in the US, this is usually the second Monday in October, and the holiday was started to honor Italian-American heritage, but about 20 years ago, people were like,

hmm, how do we feel about Christopher Columbus? Not good, got it. And many cities started swapping the holiday out for Indigenous Peoples Day, but Columbus, Ohio really could go anywhere with the day. And so they've decided to honor veterans. What is my damn point? That no one has made another mid-October holiday all about apples, boy, howdy, I reckon we need one. And that's when the bumper sales are out, but we have so many different Apple festivals,

Redside stands, large producers. And so, you know, wherever you go, you can't turn around without seeing an Apple orchard. Did you grow up, like going to field trips and things in orchards? I know I did and that it became a magical place. We didn't so much because we didn't have a lot of apple orchards where I grow up, but of course my dad had the apple trees and my mom's family was informing. So, you know, we were exposed to it.

But what a bad story. My kids were little and they came home and they said, mom, we went to an apple Archute and we had cider. We picked apples from the trees and my husband said, shame on you. Because you had them or just because. It was like we had them, but you're so busy and you're so overwhelmed with apples.

That's the last thing you think of doing. Just taking your kids out. So after that, we started making sure that they were always out. And little kids just like to be able to bite into an apple, throw it to the ground and try another one. Yeah, everywhere. How did you end up doing this as a job?

Not a lot of people get to right, immerse themselves in orchards and varieties and plants and fruit. So my mom was an amazing green thumb. So we always had a lot of flowers. My dad had a big vegetable garden. So my mom started the fascination with plants because they really are just amazing.

And then my dad bred racing pigeons of all things. So homing pigeons will always come home. But especially in Connecticut and other areas, they will take the pigeons, put them on a truck, drive them several hundred miles away, and then there's a lever that lets them all off at the same time and you bet on whether your pigeons will come back before others. But he taught me about the genetics of different patterns and some of the things that you look for. And he would talk about selection. So he would say, see them flying. The last one is a little weak and sure enough, a hawk would come and get it, which was a kind of a terrifying lesson for young child.

But you know, that was really great. And then my brother was a science teacher, and I was always around nature. But when I went to the University of Connecticut and took my first botany course, I fell in love. And then I took my first plant breeding course and I realized that I could create something and I could create something that no one else had ever seen. But even more importantly, with fruit that no one else had ever tasted.

The snazbearys taste like snazbearys. So my predecessor said that being an apple breeder is like being an explorer and a unknown land. So when you bite into an apple that you created, it may be the world's best apple or it may be what we refer to as the spitters. You created it and to be able to do something that no one else has done. And a lot of times it isn't a success, but when it is, boy, is that gratifying? Do you have to wait years before you know if something's delicious or is bitter? Correct.

Oh, that is so much patience. How do you cultivate that much patience? No, it's more impatience, I think. So we learned ways to make it quicker. So if I talk to somebody that works in tomatoes, they're like, oh my God, it takes so long, but it used to take 20 to more like 40 years to where a variety you thought might be successful. And I was like, I can't, you know, you could retire before you know you're

any good. And so I started looking at ways to use certain parents to make fruit a curve quicker, to do cultural conditions to make them come into fruit, to use dwarfing rootstocks, which allow them to produce fruit sooner. More on rootstocks in a bit is bananas, the Zapples. And so with the case of New York one or Snapdragon, one of our releases, it was the fastest from cross to commercialization. I think it was 11 years. And that's still a long time, but that's cutting it

by three decades. Holy smokes. Are you able to say like, I worked on this apple and this apple and this apple? Do you have like a running list in your head? Of course, but the two that are receiving the most attention right now are Snapdragon and Ruby Frost and Snapdragon in particular is the only, I think, official apple of an NFL team. So it's the official apple of the Buffalo Bills.

Oh my God. Yeah. Sorry. I mean, that's, that is cool. So we are going to have a documentary out that is through viewpoint and Dennis Quaid moderates it. But they, they video it us from the idea of making that variety to the marketing that was

involved in our marketing group is one many different awards. SnapDragon just recently won an award for outstanding fruit cultivar from my professional society, which is the American Society for Horticultural sciences. And the name recognition, they really did such a nice job tying in the S Dragon logo, a tagline monster crunch. So we're doing this a lot different. And in the past, we didn't have money for marketing. And one thing that their marketing department did not count on was some weird lady with a niche podcast,

emailing to ask their mad scientist fruit hieness to talk about her apples. And not having a single snap dragon apple in front of me, woefully. I had to comb the internet for descriptions, which have included spicy sweet, a hint of vanilla, crisp flesh, exceptional juiciness, and monster crunch. So how many people have to grow a new apple

before it's market ready? Like who has backstage access to new apples? So this was a closed release, something called a club, but every grower in New York State had the opportunity to join, and then we stipulated that 25% of the proceeds had to go to marketing, and that's made all the difference. I was going to ask, who is behind Big Apple? If it takes 11 years for a quicker version to make it to market. Like, who pays for the

risk? Is there like an Apple council? Oh, no. So Cornell University has been very generous about supporting my program, but it has become more challenging. There's only three major Apple university programs in the US, and you contrast that with like Japan and every province as their own Apple breeder. We used to, in the past, even as early as the 1970s, there was a breeder in almost every state. If you're wondering, how many provinces does Japan have?

Like seven or like a hundred. Welcome to being me. Anyway, Japan, 47 prefectures. But if you're wondering how many ancient provinces were in Japan, there were 69. Welcome. But back to apples. So kernels made quite a history in the Apple world.

And they support a lot of agriculture research of this ilk. And the breeding programs are also funded by the New York Apple growers who all tax themselves and then they pitch in for research. And Susan says that one group of growers called Crunch Time, Apple's, got together the marketing for Snapdragon, even though they all have full-time jobs, getting apples to your fruit baskets and your sack lunches. But they were confident in the varieties and they were confident in our program and the data that we had and it's been a wonderful partnership. I mean it's just we we kid around a lot but to see drone footage of some of our packing

houses and the people and to hear customers say, that's my favorite apple. Just doesn't get better than that. Who gets to name it? Cause Snapdragon's such a good name. Like, do you have to vote? Well, we were able to have input, but in the past, we used to name them. We, the breeder or the university used to name the apple.

And I will tell you that it's hard to name something because you can't name it if it's been used before. And there are on record over 14,000 names. Oh my god. So, you know, we're going to start becoming like the pharmacy XYZ result. But when I first heard the name Snapdragon, I was like, that's a flower because, a flower because I'm in horticulture. But then they showed the logo and they showed the tag lines and it resonates with kids and it's a very memorable. So that was one where they suggested several different names and a grower Mark Russell really felt

that Snapdragon was the best name and he'd let a campaign to make that be the case. And then Ruby Frost is a good name, but it just doesn't resonate as well. A friend of mine, the Minnesota breeder came up with honey crisp. And that was a great name because it's sweet and it's crisp. But then so many people, myself included, started using crisp, that a group from Ohio that has a private program, they called an apple ludicrisp. Right. When you see that, you've got to be like, that's got to be the crispiest.

Just because. So out there. Right. You're wondering about other apple names, I was too. And to the point that I scrolled through a list of several several hundred to find the ones that might tickle us and Even though it was past my bedtime, I kept scrolling through because there are so many tasty little treats such as Hoary morning Northern spy cockleap pepin flushing spits in berg sack ma girdle sleeping beauty

ronk dazzle, bloody plowmen, cheese. Just cheese. Scrumptious, pumpkin sweet, pit-maced and pineapple, scarlet cranberry, sack and sugar, one named water. There's also poor house and Rambo. So next time you need to name a pet or a car or a first born, look no further than a big-ass list of unhinged heirloom apple names. Speaking of which, let's go back in time. Well, you know, a huge question I have is Johnny Appleseed, a legend, a myth, knowing what little I know about apples.

I understand you cannot just throw seeds down and all these different apple varieties will sprout up, right? Right. There's a book that's really good and I think it's called Johnny Apple Seed, the Man the Myth the Legend. So Johnny Apple Seed became glamorized by Disney and some of the books that were written, kids' books about him, but there really was that gentleman, except he used Apple Seeds. So when you cut open an apple, so if it's nap dragon or empire, whatever your favorite apple is,

when you cut open the apple, those seeds have, let's say, empire as the parent, but 50% of the genes come from whatever the bee brought in as pollen. Could be a crab apple, could be golden delicious, it could be delicious, it could be any number as pollen. Could be crab apple, could be golden delicious, could be delicious, could be any number of things. And sometimes even seeds within the apple have different combinations of parents. And so that's why when you plant an apple seed, you don't get that variety.

You get a descendent of it, but it's not going to be anywhere near that same variety. So the only way that you can make a genetic copy of an apple tree is to use clonal propagation. That's where you take a bud or a piece of fruit and wood and you put it on a rootstock. Bring me the axe. It's like making a genetic Xerox or copy of that tree. like making a genetic Xerox or copy of that tree. And so each bud is a genetic replica, and if you use a hundred buds,

you'll get a hundred trees and they're all the same as that original seedling. So when you think about it, Macintosh was discovered in the 1700s, every tree that's been propagated dates back to that originally ancestor. Whoa. Are all the snap dragons that you might find? Do they come from a single tree that really had the best traits?

Right. Well, so they do and they don't. So the first tree started everything. You have a first generation, you have a second generation, but the original source of it, it's like when they do those anthropology studies, you know, the eve is that original trait. And this refers to a metrilineal line of ancestry, or the so-called mitochondrial eve of African origin, that researchers date back to between 140 and 200,000 years ago. Journalists kind of coined that biblical term

because it made headlines. But Alan Wilson, a biochemist who co-founded the theory, did not like the reference to an Eve character, and he preferred the term Lucky Mother, which I think is more sweet and crisp. But on this topic, let's kick it back to the late 1700s. Let me go back to what you had asked about Johnny Appleseed. Yeah.

Okay, so Johnny Appleseed was interesting in that rather than bringing buds or trees to the colonist, he was bringing applesides because he could get them from a citeri. So when you press citer, the apples seeds are left, they have bags of them, he would collect those bags, and he was a shrewd businessman. So he would find a piece of land, he would plant those seeds, and now he is having a combination of trees that aren't named varieties, but he can give to settlers very inexpensively. He did that to spread the word of the Sweden's Borough religion. Oh, and interestingly, Johnny Appleseed thought it was morally wrong to graft two different trees together. I don't know why, but he did. And so

he used the seeds as a way to get his foot in the door. And then to try to spread the word of his religion. Well, so where did they come from before colonists in America? Okay, so great question. The original origin of Apple is in the northern China, Kazakhstan, and other parts of the Soviet Union. Just a tiny bit of history here. So the apples you're eating are malice, domestica, and less you're foraging in the valleys of Kazakhstan, where wild apples, malice, ciaversiae, still dangle from hundred-year-old trees, some are several stories high, and wild apples, they're very completely from tree to tree.

Because remember, the pollination of apples is a total crap shoot depending on what a bee brings in from its butt. So the wild apple sizes and textures and tastes are all over the place. But evolutionarily, the local bears preferred the sweetest, biggest ones, and they would clamor up trees before the winter to get them, kind of naturally pruning the trees with these giant hungry claws. And then they would leave with bellies full of apple seed to disperse like confetti as they lumbered toward hibernation. So those seeds tended to grow into bigger, tastier apples, which the horses love.

And guess what? Sweet pooping beasts people rode along the silk road. Well, camels, but also horses, who love apples. Now this great silk road was a network of trade routes, and it stretched over 4,000 miles between the coast east of now Beijing through China, India, Iran, Turkey, North Africa, and Russia into Eastern Europe. And this series of sandy and hilly and foresty highways were the way to go for 1,500 years up until about 600 years ago.

And just like we have flying J-Truck stops to buy 32 answers at Baha Blast, the silk road had ends and stops, and they were called caravanceries. You just stop along the way. 4,000 miles. So many pea breaks, no drive-through burritos, no podcasts, just your camel named Gary and some guy, Carton of Barrel of Buttons, who's telling the same story about the time he fought a drunk goat and the goat one. That is a long road. And then they traveled by the Silk Route to Europe, but each time they were traveling,

if seeds were dropped or if animals like horses ate them, they would germinate and then they would cross with species. So that's a relative of apple in that region. And so we call that integration. So if you've done the ancestry and me, if you look at the apple, you can see the different areas that it was colonized in. And then when the settlers came to North America

and pursued a religious freedom and hopefully wealth. They brought seeds with them. Sometimes they brought trees, but the trees from the UK and other places weren't adapted to America. So, when the colonists came here, they found several different native apples, but the native apples are tiny little crab apples. And as the row explained, they were sour enough to make a j bird scream. So sometimes they cross pollinated with some of the seeds that the colonists brought. but at that time people were using seeds and apples as a source of safe drinking material and not necessarily hard cider. The water had problems with animals and food safety.

And so the government asked you to plant four acres of apples because you could make cider and have a form of liquid that was safer for you. But then other people say, well, Johnny, apple seed was successful because he brought liquor to the colonists. But, you know, there's nuances to the story. Well, the difference is between regions, whether it's Kazakhstan or the UK or Washington, state or upstate New York or in the mountains of Southern California, are there any differences like Terran-noir like with grapes? Yeah, we don't really call it that, but I think in the future that may happen. And there's actually been some really cool studies that even in a relatively close area, so let's say within a half a mile of one another, you can have massively different effects on the volatiles that an apple gives

off, the sweetness, sourness, combinations. So just toss an apple and you'll hit research about flavors of apples. Like the 2017 paper, sweet taste and apple, the role of sorbidol, individual sugars, organic acids, and volatile compounds, which notes that after sorbidol and soluble solid content like glucose, the most important contribution to apple sweetness comes from the scent of several volatile compounds. Mainly esters, dripped from acids, and fernicine, which smells like green apple, and it attracts apple worms. But yes, even with a similar geography, apples can vary in smells and tastes.

And so we do have that effect, but we also have regional preferences. So if you grow up in, I have a lot of time to ask you growing up in Southern California, what was your favorite apple? Well, I grew up in Northern California, but I've been down here for like 25 years. But I would say, way back when I was, like, you know what I said? There weren't as many cool varieties. There's still being grown in laboratories.

But I've always been like a green apple person. Okay, so Granny Spell will spend a few months. Yeah, like a Granny's myth. Yeah. How about Gravenstein? I don't know it. Okay, so that's the best. Is that the. How about Gravindstein? I don't know it. Okay. Is that a kind of striated one or no? Um, it's striped.

They have an annual Gravindstein conference out in California. I know that. I totally knew this, but I couldn't think of the name and I blanked out with nervous. Also, if you wanted to go to the 50th anniversary of the Gravindstein Apple Fair, sorry losers, you missed it.

It was this past August. But hey, there's always a 51st. So when you see a Gravenstein Apple just say, hey wow, this is a descendent of an apple founded a monastery which captured the fancy of a guy named Count Carl Alstead who shipped a branch back to his brother, count Frederick the Younger in the mid 1600s.

And now you're just eating one on a bench, waiting for your connecting flight at a Dallas. And so there's also to nuance, you know, stories of where an apple came from and a lot of the people that like heirloom varieties and heirlooms can be really good, but there's a reason that they're no longer grown. So either they didn't produce enough for growers

or they had a certain Achilles heel issue that made them less than profitable. But they have aromance and a history to them. So who doesn't want to try Thomas Jefferson's favorite apple? If you must know, this was likely the Isopus Spitzenberg, which sounds like a physics professor, but it's actually a crimson apple that's oblong

and sweet tart with a little spice. Or, you know, the apple that your mom had in her backyard, but then sometimes people will try these apples and go, you see, I thought it was a lot better than that one. I was a kid. They're like apples have come so far that you're like, oh, this is a good thank you. I'm sure there's a lot of teachers that are like

really a red delicious really of all the Apple. Right. That's like such an iconic give the teacher an Apple and it's also I think probably a lot of people's least favorite Apple, no fans. Yeah, it's no, it's losing popularity in in Washington. The acreage is definitely going down. Turns up. But what the original delicious was actually a really good apple. So there's some genetic changes that occur naturally. And I used the example of a famous woman professor at Cornell, Barbara McClendon, looked at Indian corn. And she said, why are these kernels different colors,

different patterns? And she said, why are these kernels different colors, different patterns? And she hypothesized that there was something called transposable elements or jumping genes. So that these genetic elements could insert themselves into DNA. And if it was near a gene for color, it could change the expression of that gene. So that's why you see, you know, light colors, dark colors, stripes, spots. And we have those transposons in Apple too. So what transposon is also called a transposable element or TE. And essentially it means that parts of a DNA sequence can jump around an organism's genome.

And this massive discovery that changed the way we see genetics is also known as jump in genes, a term which sounds kind of like it could play the banjo. But yeah, its discovery is credited to one Cornell University of Autonus, Dr. Barbara Maclintuk, who got her PhD in the 1920s, even though her mom didn't want her to attend college because it would make her unmarriageable. who got her PhD in the 1920s, even though her mom didn't want her to attend college, because it would make her unmarriageable. Also, from what I gather, she didn't get along very well with her mom.

And my hypothesis is that her mom was a bitch. But anyway, she was studying what was then known as Indian corn. But today, it's more commonly called flint corn. And it's a crop that was first domesticated by indigenous peoples of what's now Mexico some 9,000 years ago. So after much maze research, Barb publishes this groundbreaking paper about jeans switching positions and leading to new mutations and she strode up to a podium of a symposium in 1951. Back one, women couldn't open their own bank accounts, and she was like, y'all get ready for some crazy quorn shit. And according to historical account, the room went quiet.

Dead silence. Dr. McClendick said the reaction from her peers was puzzlement and even hostility, and that she was startled to find out they didn't understand it, and didn't take it seriously. And then finally, nearly two decades later, someone else discovered Te's or transposed on in bacteria. And they were like, hey, remember that lady that we talked shit on? She was totally right. How about that? Hmm, what a world! So what did Barbara McClendon get from this? Well, the 1983 Nobel Prize in Physiology and Medicine.

They were like, we fucked up. She also got this aside. Also, if you go to the Smithsonian National Museum of Natural History in Washington, D.C., you can gaze upon her very microscope and some ears of her corn because it turns out that transposable elements comprise about half of the human genome and up to 90% of corn genes, like in flink corn, Susan explains. And they're also for color because that seems to be a gene that mutates easily. And it could be from cold weather, it could be from hard pruning,

but there's genetic changes in the very small shoot tip. And when you get more color, you can lose the ability to produce a lot of volatiles. So the original delicious was very poorly colored and striped. And then each time it mutated for color, it lost, in our opinion, of some researchers, it lost some of the quality that the original one had. Oh, so it's sort of more fashion and less fun. Right. Exactly.

Perfect. I put as someone who's a granny Smith type of person, and I tend to go toward the more tart ones. Why are green apples so tart and just thinking about them makes you start drooling? And red apples tend to be less tart. Okay, so that's not quite accurate, but I understand where you're coming from. So Granny Smith does have a very tart perception. And there actually was a Granny Smith that throughout her apple pie tremings

and that apple came up in her compost pile. And that's how it became in Australia, it became an interesting apple for the world. Yeah. So what's cool about Green Apples is we've tried to develop a really good Green Apple for the Northeast because foranny Smith takes too long of a growing season to grow here. But when you cross green apples, you don't get beautiful green apples. You get kind of putrid pea green,

you get yellow, you get all sorts of different things. And sometimes you don't get that acidity. So a lot of red apples can be acid, but the reason that most apples in the marketplace are sweeter is that 70% of the population, at least in North America, but I think worldwide, refer a sweet apple and only 30% like one with more acidity. Really?

I mean, minority with that. Yeah. I've I know minority with that. Yeah. I've been the minority too. I thought this is a cute story, and it's sad that it's not true. So I went down the rabbit hole to find out the actual origin story of the Granny Smith, and it turns out that a woman in Australia was baking a lot of apples and throwing the cores out her windows. So yes, the story is totally true, which healed my heart. It restored my faith

in charming agricultural narratives. I was so happy to fact-check that. And also I saw a photo of Granny Smith, and it was just as you'd picture her. Just big, billowing black dress, an abonant shading her wise face, which is a grid of laughter lines and puckered from crab apple eating. Also, I do love that apple. And it turns out Granny Smith apples are pretty popular. The conceptual artist, Yoko Ono, debuted a piece in a London gallery in 1966. It was this tall, clear, plexing glass stand, holding a fresh, Granny Smith apple, and below it a tiny plaque bearing the word, Apple.

The title of the piece was Apple. An vanity fair art critic wrote of this historical artwork in glowing terms, praising its reflection on the passage of time marked by the apples decay and periodic renewal as it is replaced without the course of the exhibition. For its 1966 debut, it was priced at $400, which is roughly four grand today. And apparently, one of the people who came to the art show picked the apple up off the stand and bit into it and then just calmly placed it back. And Yoko Ono recalled,

I was so furious, I didn't know what to say. And it all showed in my face how dare this person, you know, mess around with my work she said. And that person, let's John Lennon, you know the rest. Anyway, Granny Smith was growing some French crab apples and now we have Granny Smith's. But what about crab apples? Do they have like a ton of acidity? Why does my face suddenly suction inward?

Like someone who got a deal on cheek fat removal. What about crab apples? Do they have a ton of acidity? They don't even have just acidity, so they have astringency, so the tannins that make red wine good, that make tea, you know, have that little zing to it. Those tannins are present in apples, but specifically in crab apples. And the term tannin was because they actually

use those compounds to tan leather. We breed crab apples for ornamental use for landscape trees. But what I love to do with classes because everybody thinks, you know, like, well, you, you know, and I'll get back to your question about how do you breathe something good, but students always think if it looks good, it's going to be good because Americans buy with our eye. If it's really red, we think it's going to be great. And so I'll pick apples that I know aren't good, put them in a basket and have the students pick. But one day day I decided I was going to give them a red fleshed apple with a lot of acidity and a lot of astringency. And I asked for permission to videotape them. And the reaction was priceless. They were like, that's not fair. And I was

like, that's what we bite into sometimes. But I did that with my children when they were little, I would throw crab apples on their lunch. And then they'd come back and they'd like the kids loved them because they're like shocked hearts or wore, you know, air heads, wore heads. Yeah. Yeah. Because the flavor and those are sour apple flavor. I was going to ask about that with apple candies and soda. Yeah. Malac acid. Yep. Is that what's giving the flavor or that tartness? Uh-huh. Yeah. I don't know if you remember this, but for a while,

there was a soda called slice, and they had an apple flavor. And I don't know what happened to it, but I've always wondered why isn't there more apple gum or apple sodas or things that grape and bubble gum is everywhere, oranges everywhere? What was it with apple? Well, with apple juice, you know, grape and bubblegum is everywhere, orange is everywhere. Wasn't it apple? Well, with apple juice, you have apple sauce, apple, you know, the fruit leather is basically a lot of apple.

I don't know. Neither die. So I spent way too long researching the history of the carbonated soda slice, which debuted in the mid 80s and contained 10% fruit juice. And later quietly, no fruit juice. But it had weird flavors, including apple slice, which was only on the planet for two years. But I suppose it made an impression on me, partly because I had it on a road trip with my uncle Ron to go sledding,

and I got car sick on the mountain roads, and I will never forget the sight of the empty apple slice can rolling around the floor of the car. But slice was supposed to make a comeback this year and people I'm waiting. Meanwhile, Mexico is like, hello, we have Sidro Mondet and Man's Need a Soul, two Apple sodas for you. And I guess there's also Martin Ellie Cider, which is sparkling Apple juice, but we have a whole episode on Apple Cider called Ciderology, including the hard stuff. And yes, of course, it's linked in the show notes.

But yes, more Apple flavored things, please. The public is demanding it as of right now. It's a mystery, especially like Concord when I get in trouble with the New York audience, but Concord grape juice is great. But as a parent having toddlers spill Concord grape juice on your rug is not a highlight of your day. Well, I was gonna ask, what's with that one apple that tastes like grapes? Where did that one come from? Are you referring to the grapple?

Yes. Yes. Okay. So that's interesting because it's actually an apple that soaked in Concord juice type flavoring. No. Yeah, and if you're not allergic to apples, there's some allergens and apples that people are very seriously allergic to. And you can be not allergic to apples and not allergic to grape, but there's proven documentation of people allergic to grapple apples. So allergic folks, what if you're sitting there just asking Universe why? Why? Why?

They serve a purpose to the plant by trying to fight off and service defense, but people that are highly sensitive will develop an oral allergy. And interestingly, if you're allergic to white birch pollen, you're more prone to have an apple allergy because the two allergens are very similar in structure. And so that blew my mind because it was like, but babies don't get sensitized to birch, you know, pollen, but I guess they do. And I think of the Netherlands, they funded research on anti allergens, no allergenicity in Apple because people were having anaphylactic reactions to them. Could that be regional at all?

Yes, it could be. Oh, wow. Speaking of kind of cross-rides, what about Papples, Pair Apples? What's the, are they apples or pears? Oh, so I'm curious where you heard the term? Papples? Yeah. I know that they're called Asian Pairs. So, I'm curious where you heard the term? Apple. Yeah.

I know that they're called Asian pairs. But I know. Okay. I'm glad I asked. So Asian pairs are pairs. They're just, there's two types of pairs. European and Asian and the papils aren't, aren't pair apples. They're just pure pair.

Oh, but because around we've been so good. Right. And because all of us, we always like to push the envelope a little bit. So breeders have crossed pair and apple. And while there isn't a product ready for market, we're learning a lot about genes. There's a lot of genes in pair and apple that are very similar, but there's some that are very different, but we're learning more about how we could further intercross those.

But where we have had success, intergenerically is the apricots and the ploughots, which are plum apricot or apricot plum hybrids. Yeah, those things are good too. Yeah, I'm down with it. All of this interpotanical fiddling, Johnny Abelseed's ghost right now is livid at us. So pissed!

Speaking of the dearly departed, what about extinct apples? Are there any that are just legendary that hopefully someone discovers a seat packet in a dusty museum or something? Okay, so again, because... Not that that would help. Yeah, wouldn't we?

Yeah, because and that's the problem. But there are a lot of really passionate fruit detectives that go around trying to find lost trees. And I spoke with someone last week about this very topic. And I explained that heirlooms play an important role. But what people don't realize is that the USDA has a massive collection. In fact, in Geneva, New York, right down the street from us, where they collected over 3,000 different apple varieties. And that serves as a living library. And the importance is not necessarily every apple that ever existed

being saved but specific genes of interest. And so like if you think about it, if you're one of six children, ideally what I want to preserve each and every member of the family, but as long as there's one descendant, the majority of your genes are preserved. Child-free folks, please bookmark that fact for any holiday encounters in which relatives discuss your reproductive intentions. I hope that you have horny baby-making siblings. So that's what happens with apples that you have different manifestations and different types of it, but when you look at a lot of these older varieties that are found, they're derived

from a relatively small number of ancestors. Oh, so there is a certain loss, but you take what you can get. Correct, and apples are remarkably diverse. So that's why I love working on them because I couldn't work with a crop that was having to be bred for uniformity.

So right, you want it to be uniform, corn, you want it to be uniform, wheat, boring. But apples, you know, walking down any particular row, you're going to see so many different manifestations of quality of tree shape, tree size. We have apple trees that grow horizontally. We have apple trees that grow more like Brussels sprouts. So there's just also it's a wild variation. And it's great for research studies. But also, if we can answer some of those questions,

it'll help us be better even better in the future. I'm sorry, apples that grow like Brussels sprouts. How in the gravity does that happen? Well, I just watched too many videos on orchard planning. And as it turns out, they can grow apple trees that are tall and supported by wires. And they look like columns of leaves and fruit. And it's called tall spindle growing.

It's wild. I always picture apple trees as these big round bushy things in orchards. Like if they could talk they would be like, boop, boop, boop, boop, boop, do do. How do you feel about getting apples at the farm or the orchard versus the grocery store? Do you have a preference in terms of where you get your apples? Have some been in cold storage for a while? Does that affect the taste? Okay, so proudly cold storage was developed at Cornell. Hey. And the idea was that cold storage mimics, you can, a lot of times, you know, we had root

sellers or basements or really prehistoric. They used to try to preserve foods and caves. And so cold storage is essentially kind of like trying to simulate the atmosphere of a cave. So the idea is you lower the temperature enough that the apples are kept cold, but don't freeze. But surprisingly, you can be at 32 and still not freeze the apple. So in Celsius, that would be zero. Is that not freezing? So light frosts usually won't do much harm, but for prolonged periods, not great for an apple or the tree,

unless pommologists like Susan are on it. But then you control the amount of oxygen and CO2, the apples are giving off. And regular storage just controls the temperature, controlled atmosphere, controls the level of these gases and it creates a chance for apples to be in kind of suspended animation. And so you can have an apple that's been in storage for three years and is phenomenal, but if it's a new variety or if picking wasn't done at the proper time, you can have a really good apple that doesn't perform as well as it should.

So that's a whole science, that's a post-harvest physiologist. A post-harvest physiologist. Yeah. That's another allergy. I know. I can do a post-second episode. Oh my God. So I collaborate. So when I'm very proud of our accomplishments

at Cornell, my research technician, Cavalonia is an important part of the team. But we interact with plant pathologists. We interact with entomologists, which I know you've covered. Food scientists, plant physiologists, post-harvest physiologist. It really takes a village to produce an apple and we couldn't get where we were without that kind of collaboration. Oh, I'm sure because you might have fungal blights. Oh, yeah. Introduced pests, not to mention climate scientists. Is there one thing in particular that is most

threatening to apple crops and varieties right now? Climate change, absolutely, in labor. Right. Are they all hand harvested? Yes. It was interesting. We did the documentary and the producer went, they're still harvested by hand. I was like, yeah, because the technology is getting better. And some of the technology kind of blows your mind that there's machines that almost look like frisbees that come up and pick apples.

Okay, so apple picking machines are weird, okay? Some look like rows and rows of ceiling fans stacked on top of each other, just rotating past trees like a car wash. And I saw another article describing 14-foot-tall robots with camera eyes and a half dozen arms each topped with a suction cup, but while these work around, while in Washington state alone, each year they pick 12 billion apples by hand. How much does that cost?

No idea. But according to the seasonal jobs page on the Department of Labor's website, you can make about $18 an hour or between $30 to $40,000 a year working full-time. Although the jobs are, as the website states, seasonal jobs. And according to one help-wanted description, I read you need prior picking experience and the abilities to work on ladders up to 12 feet tall, climb up and down ladder while carrying full bag, have no problems with balance, be able to work in conditions including rain and temperatures from 35 degrees to more than 100 degrees, be able to bend, stoop, stand, and lift up to

60 pounds of apples for the entire workday. And one farmer looking into more robot technology told a newspaper roofly, the younger generation doesn't aspire to be an apple picker. Right now, we're trying to figure out how we can keep enough employees to get our crops picked until this technology evolves. I'm not a roboticist, but I guess one solution might be just to pay them more. But a human hand is amazingly effective, and a lot of the hand labor is much faster and when you're picking a robot has to know and this is something I try to tell people so when they go to pick apples they do it right. Everybody wants to pull the apple down from the tree and so they yank it the whole

tree shakes but what you want to do is you want to lift the apple up and Then twist and then that stem will come off easily. You don't damage the tree but when Pickers are picking They're picking with both hands, but then Nowadays when you buy apples, you're probably never noticed, but the stems are clipped Nowadays, when you buy apples, you're probably never noticed, but the stems are clipped. Because of a stem is too long, and it hits into another apple and the picking bag or the bin, it causes a puncture and that can rot.

So the pickers actually carry little snippers, and so they have to pick the apple, cut off the stem, and then put it in the back. And yes, you do want a little bit of a stem because it's like a cork that prevents tiny little micro critters from nesting in your apple because no matter how nice you are, those micro critters are not welcome. And if one rocks that adage of one bad apple, does that emit certain gases? Yes, it emits ethylene, which further enhances ripening, but enhances spoilage.

So the one bad apple is definitely true. If you have a basket of apples and they're riding, usually you'll find a decayed one on the bottom. But you can also use apples to make things ripen better. That's why you don't want to keep apples and bananas together. Booples and bananas. They're going to make each other ripen better. That's why you don't wanna keep apples and bananas together. Booples and bananas. They're gonna make each other ripen, but you can put an apple next to a brimiliad flower,

and the gas from the apple will help the brimiliad flower. Really? Yeah. I gotta figure out what a brimiliad flower looks like. It kinda looks like a pineapple. Oh, I gotta look at it. Okay, yeah, I look these up and imagine like a long-leaved house plant, like a snake plant,

but then there's like a hot pink squishy pine cone in the middle, kind of like, hey, I'm a plant with a wacky hat, do you love it? Let's move on to something with less botanical glamour, though. I saw that you have a paper on Rustedy, and is that what we call apple rust? Is that the oxidation? No.

So apple rust isn't the oxidation either. So apple rust is a disease that causes little orange circles on the leaf. And it's called cedar apple rust because the cedars are an alternate host. The disease doesn't occur unless you have cedars and apples in pretty close proximity. Apple Browning is a form of oxidation, but it's when the flesh is cut and certain compounds interact and cause the oxidation reaction or browning.

Now, people always complain about apple browning, and I love the comments because they were like, just cut it off. You know, it's like, you're putting your apple down, chalk on the phone, it's brown. All you have to do is use a little knife and cut the surface, and underneath it is perfectly, you know, fine. Okay, I found some first-hand advice from a serious eats article, which offered the tips of soaking cut apple slices in a saline solution of half a teaspoon of salt per cup of water, and then you rinse off the salty taste before you serve

them. Or you could submerge them in plain water, which prevents the apple slices from having so much exposure to oxygen, or you could introduce some citrus, which has a zorbic acid, and it keeps a pH lower, which can reduce oxidation. Or, like Susan says, you've been stopping a baby and just deal with it or cut it off. Also, this whole thing has nothing to do with apple russet. Turns out that's a texture thing, and I love it. Apple russet and, you know, that potatoes are russeted. They weren't always. And that's why, like, you congoles don't have the russet. Oh, okay. Yeah, so the russeted potatoes, that is just like cork cells.

When you buy pairs, certain pairs have russet, and those again are just cork cells. They have no detrimental effect. Well, in the olden days, they liked russet because they can desiccate, but they can also hold their shape better. So we, in fact, I have in my office right now, a full russet that has a modern taste. And I hope that it'll be one of the next apples we name because the quality is exceptional. So think of an Asian pear or a dianjou pear,

kind of like a matte, rough, fibery finish. But that genetic difference is complex. And I made crosses hoping to get russeting, and I got non, and then I made crosses, not to get russet, and I got fully russeted offspring. I went to get my PhD and quantitative genetics, so I would know everything. And you know, guess what?

And that's what makes it fun because you could say, you know, I thought that this was gonna work. So you were asking like, how do you get quality? And so when you think about, and this is simplifying it, so apples have upwards to 54,000 genes. Oh my gosh. How many do you have? Like less than half an apples,

according to most recent calculations. So when you look at genetics, if you ever took genetics, they're always looking at Mendel and a three to one or a one to one ratio, or if it's more complicated, a nine to three to 3 to 1 ratio, but in essence, it's not just the genes. There's transcription factors, things that turn on the machinery, there's promoters which amplify what's going on, there's interactions between all sorts of genes. So stuff we thought was really simple. You can do studies

now and there can be 60,000 different gene differences between two different groups. And so it's challenging, but it's exciting because once we crack the mystery on one complex, we may make greater efforts. But the russet was one of my graduate students, Ben Gutera, is being really brilliant in that he used one of those transposable elements or genetic sports to look at an apple that naturally can be half the fruit can be Russet and half the fruit isn't. Oh, my God. And so he was able to look at the differences on the same fruit, but that were expressing

the genes or not expressing. And that made a really clear cut study of what was going on. Imagine if Batman's super villain Harvey Dent slash two face was in apple form and was created by scientists tinkering with nature. And back to that, what are transcription factors and promoters? So a transcription factor is a protein that controls when DNA tells messenger RNA to do something based on maybe if it's good timing. And promoters also control gene expression.

Has it changed a lot in recent years as it's easier to sequence genomes or look at really some of those genetic mechanics? In some ways. I was thrilled when I came on the job. We didn't have many molecular markers. We did the first genetic apple map here. But the problem is markers are only as good as how broad they are. So if a molecular

markers developed in a particular population, but it doesn't work on another population, you have to know that because you could throw out material that's perfectly good. A lot of times when you look at papers, you'll see, so a QTL is a quantitative trait low side. That just means a lot of different genes are responsible and their interactions controlling that trait. So I think a height in humans, you know, that there's not an easy trait. So again, a quantitative trait locus is a spot on a gene where you might have a single nucleotide polymorphism and A versus a T or a C versus a G. So you, or in this case an apple, can have a single nucleotide polymorphism, an A versus a T, or a C versus a G. So you, or in this case an apple, can have a different appearance or flavor or size,

which is a phenotype, or how the genes are expressed, based on really complex variations in single fragments of DNA. They could be in different combos in different spots, or even on a few different chromosomes. And you'd think that if you have the brain and the technology to figure out which genes do exactly what, you would have the entire puzzle laid out for you. But when we do QTL studies, that particular portion or marker associated with that trait may only explain like 11% of the variation.

So you're just chasing, trying to chase information, right? Not always be a good lead. Right. So we use the markers to help us fine tune things. So for example, you can't cross an apple with itself. So some varieties you can solve, you know, humans we can't solve, but apples you have to cross with a genetically distinct apple variety, and there's a mechanism that keeps genetically similar individuals from setting seed. But if you make a cross and the cross doesn't work, is it because it has two close genes for interaction or that the weather was crappy?

The pollen wasn't good. And so it allows us to say, OK, I'm going to look at the molecular marker for SN compatibility alleles. And I can tell if this is going to be compatible or not. So if it's just not happening, Susan can look under the hood, genetically speaking, and try to figure out which genes have thrown a wrench in things.

And then if it doesn't set fruit, we can look at other issues. Or if I only want to produce red apples, I can screen. But the problem is a lot of the traits that consumers, growers, and I are most interested in are those that are complex. So yield, flavor. It's really hard to tie down because some of the flavor perceptions are the human perception, and you can't necessarily get at that. And so for firmness, we're still chasing firmness. And that's because we know that a crisp apple gives off a sound. And they started doing measurements of sounds when people bite. Yeah, but that was the thing. We all have different size mouths. We have different tooth structures. We eat apples differently." PSGinospook World Record for Apple Crunching was set in Germany in 2017,

when a bite of an apple clocked in at 84.6 decibels, which is louder than a garbage disposal. All credit should go to the apple grower, and not just a guy who bought an apple and bit it. But why does it matter, though? Well, according to the 2014 study in the Journal of Food Quality and Preference, called, effects of the sound of the bite on apple perceived crispness and hardness in taste testing when a sneaky ambient sound filter is applied and the crunch factor is muted, quote, crispness was perceived as significantly lower with any of the sound reductions. So if you don't hear the apple crunch, you think you've got a soggy apple. This is the kind of hell that apple growers go through to make us happy.

They're going back to it. They're actually starting to interpret that more. And we're doing a lot more interactions with people, but like some people perceive a stringency more than others. So I'm one of those, and I'll say to my research support specialist, Kevin, boy, this is really a stringent. He's like, it's not a stringent. Did you have coffee? And it was like, so he and I perceive it differently. And then there's just certain compounds or notes that, so this russet apple has a note of black liquid or fennel, but what's interesting is you either hate it or love it, there's no middle ground.

And so I had people from Turkey saying, if you made this apple in our country, you would be queen. And I said, well, I like the sound of that. And then somebody else bid into the apple in my office, and not only did she spit it out into the trash camp, but she was trying to clean her tongue in front of me. Oh, God, she did not enjoy that. Just a side note, black licorice flavor comes from Glister Ryzen from the root of a bean plant. And it's 50 times sweeter than sugar. And since most people pass on their share, you might be left holding the bag, gleefully so.

Some of that preference is genetic and some is based on your memories in association with the smell of fennel or licorice. Watch out, pump the brakes, slow your roll. Gorge on black licorice can drive your potassium levels down and might result in pseudo-hyperaldo sterinism. Irregular heartbeats are even cardiovascular failure, and the FDA and the American Heart Association tell you to take it easy, dude, and after the age of 40, you've got to limit yourself to less than two ounces of black licorice a day. And I have never been less afraid of anything in my life. Personally Just like, no, thanks.

We just did an episode about gastrothology, about taste buds and people tasting different levels of bitterness and being super tasteors. So I don't know if you have to tab like on a tasting panel several people. Oh no, absolutely. And you also, you know, like if you have, when you said one bad apple, we'll have growers involved in tasting to determine the right harvest date. And if there's one apple, you may get seven negative votes because each of them took a slice from the bad apple. And then everybody else is rating it differently and you know something's wrong. There's an outlier. And then there's some people that are just not good testers. So there's also it's a study about how to make a taste panel that's good.

I read one study that noted the apples are served to the evaluators under tinted lighting to mask how green or red they are. So they avoid visual biases. And then another paper said that they recruit experienced subjects in sensory science and fruit growers familiar with apple tasting notes. That's so funny to brag like, I'm one of the better apple tasteers. That is just a lucrative business. I got a deep apple.

Can I ask you some questions from listeners? They know that you're coming on. Oh, sure. Okay, amazing. Can I ask you some questions from listeners? They know that you're coming on. Oh, sure. Okay, amazing. We'll breeze through some of them just like lightning round. Right. Okay, so we'll be doing a lightning round of your questions, but first we donate to a charity of our guests selection.

Usually I tell you all about it here, and I include a link, but we haven't gotten Susan's choice yet. So just trust that when we do, we'll toss a bushel of money at them, and we'll link it on our website, and in the show notes notes once we know it. And the donation is made possible by sponsors of the show.

Thank you, sponsors. Okay, let's pick through your questions and chew through the answers. Grace Robo Show, Emily Samantha McGarrel, Janice Radigan and Paulina Crizzinca want to know if you have any tips in Janice's words for a backyard orchard Emily wants to know should I grow apples in my backyard? Is that even possible? Oh yeah absolutely but I always say this because a lot of young couples have thought of a wedding gift as an orchard and I said do you want to stay married? So apples you, our Apple growers are pro. She would ask earlier about buying from Apple growers

at the grocery store. The grocery stores are great. They're convenient, but I like to support our local industry. They're the champions, they're multi-generation farms, but also they do such a good job producing apples. So, when people ask me, can I grow trees? Yes, but you have to consider there's some bulletins that Cornell provides and other associations do, but you have to have a certain amount of light. You can't have deer trouncing through your yard

because apples are number one on their just snack list. If you have woods nearby, you get certain pressures, and then do you own a ladder, a shovel, a spray, you're going to have to spray. And if you think you're not going to spray, then you're going to have to use a knife to cut out all the wormholes. So, you know, it's. You could do it. There's people that are passionate and they do a great job. But for the average person, why do you want to add that stress to your life? Right. What kind of stuff do you have to spray

on them? And is that why we rub an apple on our thigh before we eat it? The only reason I'm laughing about that is we all do that. I always say that my thigh is the healthiest. But some of the reason we do that is when you see a film on an apple, sometimes it's just, it's called bloom and it's a waxy substance. And so when you rub an apple against your thigh, you'll notice it's nice and shiny. It does get off surfester and pesticides. But I want to make this point because people buy organic apples thinking that they're not sprayed. But they are very much sprayed. They're just sprayed with different compounds. Some of them are less

plastic and some of them are more plastic than what is used. Our growers don't spray any more than they have to because they're business men and women. And they live on the farm so they're not spraying anything extra because their kids are playing outdoors and so yes you can grow in the backyard, but it's going to be a steep learning curve at first. But if you enjoy getting apples, then you know, in the long run, you're paying glass buying them from the grocery store or growers, then you would trying to produce them yourself. The other thing because of storage, do you wanna have baskets and baskets of apples in your cellar or garage?

And there was a story recently in the newspaper and the guy goes, I'm a pariah, they're like, oh no, he's gonna give me apples again. He's gonna give me apples again. That is so good to know that it's just like, you know what, don't worry about it. Don't worry about it. You don't have to grow this.

Just go to the orchard and put on a scarf, put on your boots, go have some cider just once a year spend a couple days at an apple orchard instead of every single thing. That's so good to know. Again, we have a cider allergy episode. Get into it. On the topic of apple orchard chores, patrons Holly Giorgio, effortlessly weird Ellen Storm, Sophie Philpot, Derek Peliquin, Destinate, Matt Sakado, Kirin and Anna Euston shared similar questions as Leah Anderson, who asked,

how can I keep the apples on my trees from getting eaten by worms and wasps without spraying? You mentioned to spray, like, are worms the common pests and do those worms turn into bots? Oh, okay, good. So there's many different things we have to spray for, but sometimes people will see a grower spraying

and go, oh my God, you know, that's a pesticide, but it could be calcium. We spray trees with nutrients, boron, copper, urea, which is a form of nitrogen to help the trees grow. We put some dormant oils on during this dormant season, if you've ever had scale insects that can be problematic. And so that's used. We do spray because we're located in a wet region

and spring tends to be wet. There's certain sprays for fungal diseases like apple scab. You can have apple scab in your tree and you can live with it, but if it gets bad, the trees will defoliate, which is why so many crab apples don't have leaves around here. But you also have to spray for insects. Now, with the apple maggot, which is responsible for a lot of the worms that you see in an apple. There are sticky spheres that you can hang in your tree that have a lure and it will attract those insects and you may get a way with less sprays or you can use in the case of scab resistant variety, but you're going to have damage and then some of that damage if the fruits fall to the ground, it allows the insects to reproduce and not for the faint of heart.

I was like, what are these maggots turn into? And the most common species in the US is regaletus, pomenella, which pupate and emerge as flies. Smaller than a house fly, bigger than a fruit fly, with kind of zebra striped wings. And I was like, well, okay, what are the flies called? And they're called Apple maggots. Even though they're in adult form,

which honestly is a little infantilizing, but maybe to them it's cool, like a rap name, like a little baby. I like to think that they're in an apple just to insectify your rolls, or maybe the worm. Also, side note, the singer and beloved genius, Fiona Apple was born Fiona Apple Maggert. And yes, she did grow up in a big apple onward. Patreon Abbey asked, what can I do with crab

apples? It makes me sad to see them on the ground too many for even the squirrels. An Earl of Gremelkin echoed this question, but without the mention of the squirrels. Or sadness. Well Paul Hoffman wanted to know, don't eat apples that have fallen on the ground. Why? Is that a myth? Or should you not eat fallen apples? No, we don't allow fallen apples to be used in products

because there is a particular fungus that someone recently discovered that isn't inactivated by heat. So you could pick up what we call drops. And you could wash them, but sometimes that fungus can go into the center of the apple, so if you see a moldy core, that can cause a product called Patulin, which is not good to have in food products. So the mycotoxin patulin has some evidence as a carcinogen and it can withstand temperatures of up to 194 Fahrenheit or 90 degrees Celsius.

The scariest of ghouls the season and apple fungus spooked over, more like sport over. I'm scared. But this pathogen, this fungus that doesn't get heat and activated, you could make hard cider, you could make cider, you could make apple sauce or apple butter, and despite using heat, it's going to stay alive. It's alive! Oh.

And so it's just easier to throw those fruit out. The other thing is when you think about it, if fruit drop and apples, dear love apples, guess who's been visiting around that soil site so you don't want that would be a form of E. coli if there were droppings on the ground near your apple. Oh, okay. So not worth it. Right. Not worth it. What about Nicole Hilton said when their daughter was three years old, they gave her a whole apple to eat as a snack And then they were like where's the courage like I ate it so Can you eat the seeds?

Listen a lot of you tremble in the face of apple seeds and I get it Spencer James Parks Jessica Fowler Matt Hershel Ilysacue James Nance Eileen Lans Oliver Callis and Doria Delvin Amy B. Natalie Murphy and Marie Everg destiny tiny nature Lizzie Emily Stover Ellsison Menard, Rachel, Brennan Pricksley, and first-time question, ask her SD Linux. Kelsey Laura wants to know, are there apples that are poisonous? Can you eat the seeds?

What's going on with apples seeds? Okay, so a lot of different plants produce compounds that allow the plant to survive, the seeds to survive. So apples seeds, plum, apricot seeds, have some compounds that can get metabolized into some things similar to cyanide, but we're not talking, you know, eat an apple seed dye. And I don't know if you guys remember, but they used to use layatril from apricot kernels to use this a form for preventing cancer or fighting cancer. So I had somebody call me up and say, Dr. Brown, how many apples should I eat to prevent

cancer? And I said, you're using the doctor, and my name a little too literally. You know, I wouldn't do that. Just to say no, the average person would have to finally crush and consume the seeds of about 20 apples to do actual harm to themselves. So if you accidentally swallow one here and they're just remain chill, you're going to be okay. It was fine that your daughter ate the core. It passed through undamaged probably or broken up, but the seeds have to be bitten or blended. I'm so like making smoothies don't throw the core in there

because it's likely to get broken up, but you would have to eat massive amounts of apple seeds to have a negative reaction. Okay. I wonder if anyone's ever tried to do any poising via apple slush. I imagine it would not taste very good to get enough. No, I've not ever heard of any apple-sea poised things. That's good. Just a suspicious circumstances foul play.

A ton of people wanted to know... Beth and Greer, Alicia King, Scarlett P, Amy Hickman, Holly Cole, Ellen Fein, Paige Van Horn. Does the phrase in Apple a day keep the doctor away? I know you're a doctor, but... You just gave us the caveat that you are not here to decide medical advice for legal reasons. But like polyphenols and Ioxidins, my graduate student looked at there's certain compounds that are only found in Apple or found in a high degree in Apple. And they're called dihydrochial cones, which is a mouthful. And they work with glucose metabolism. And so they're actually being investigated for diabetes

and glucose in your bloodstream. I've had people that say, once they started eating an apple a day, they're A1c lowered. Gold's gym used to say, eat an apple, you'll lose weight. Because if you eat an apple before a meal, you're more prone to eat less. But there are so many beneficial compounds in apple. Quircetin is something that's good for mental health, but I'm not necessarily the test case for that. I get it. I mean, if it makes you happy to have a snap

dragon crunch, I'd say that's an antidepressant effect right there. That's right. In the fiber and they satiate, so there's a lot of truth to that saying. And the saying originated in 1966 as the aphorism. Eat an apple on going to bed and you'll keep the doctor from earning his bread, which honestly sounds more anti-doctor than pro-apple, but is it true? Let's check the literature. So there exists this 2015 Journal of American Medicine Paper, titled Association Between Apple Consumption and Physician Visits, and these glorious souls surveyed over 8,000 people and found that 9% of them ate an Apple a day. And though the Apple eaters tended to have higher levels of education and lower levels of smoking, quote, evidence does not support that an apple a day keeps the doctor away.

However, hello, preventative medicine visits are much different than a guy riding a horse to your house for some bloodletting. And the small fraction of U.S. adults who eat an apple a day do appear to use fewer prescription medications, the study found. And another paper found that in patients over 50, an apple a day had comparable effects to statin drugs in lowering LDL cholesterol. Apparently, apples have a bunch of phenolic acids and antioxidants, and a lot of goodness is in the peels. So consider keeping those on. I myself like the peel part of the apple best. And when people peel apples, I have on many

occasions asked to eat the bowl of peels. And as a result, I'm likely immortal. Just take a nibble out of studies such as the 2013 paper. Whole apple extracts increase lifespan, helps span, and resistance to stress, and see elegance nematodes in the journal of functional foods. And the study notes that animals pre-treated with whole apple extracts were more resistant to stresses such as heat, UV radiation, herbicide, induced oxidative stress, and pathogenic infection.

Suggesting that cellular defense and immune system functions are also improved, and they continue, our findings indicate that in C elegans, whole apple extracts slow aging, extend lifespan, improve health span, and enhance resistance to stress. Okay granted, this wasn't worms. But hey, as we learned in the benthopologic neomatology episode, we're using C. elegans to find all kinds of weird spooky shit. Ah, that's so good to know, I love apples. I actually have a bunch of my refrigerator and there are a ton of people Kate Munker Emily Carl Hanky

Kylacy also Scarlet P want to know what's the best way to store apples. Is it in the fridge? Yes, absolutely. So when you store them out in a bowl on the table They're gonna go downhill pretty quickly Okay, but if you could keep them in crisp drawer in your refrigerator, or if you have a spare refrigerator, they can be put in a plastic bag, but it should have holes in it. You don't want to store apples near onions. They'll pick up the bad flavor. And for some reason, apples and carrots are counter-indicated in terms of storing together.

But they'll last so much longer. So yes, the gentle farting of ethylene out of apples can make your adjacent oranges wither faster, and even carrots, lettuce, and broccoli are susceptible to apple influencers. But don't blame other apples. They don't deserve you as a hater. You know, we had a guest on here, a dendrologist who was a fanfave and Casey Clap loves trees. Notauriously hates apple trees. Apples are just completely pointless. But it's just like, uh, like everyone who buys apples and like, I'm going to eat it as

a snack. I'm like, you're just going to get hungry. You should bring cheese. You should at least get cheese and some peanut butter. I'm not going to eat it, but go ahead. I've never heard someone who was such an Apple pho. Casey clap thinks that apples are an elaborate propaganda campaign.

And for what? I guess for Apple industry, I think maybe he is opposed to the Johnny Apple seed, a popular story is perhaps, but Paul Smith wants to know, Casey's not a big man. He just wants to know if you maybe could take him in a one on one combat, if that's something that you would be willing to do. And arm wrestle maybe. I love this. And by convincing to love apples. Well, let's let's hope so. You should try more apples, but we have people that only look at kale or only look at grapes.

And we have running commentary back and forth about fruits and vegetables and witches superior. But most of the vegetables that you're eating are actually fruits, so we win. Just in case you've never heard the classic Spuctober episode about pumpkins, let us just dip real quick into that convo about cucurbitology with the esteemed Ann Copeland author of the book, Pumpkin Pumpkin. And now what about some varieties of pumpkins? Oh there are a lot

a lot a lot of pumpkin varieties. Now a pumpkin is not a typical fruit. It's also not a vegetable. Oh it's not a vegetable. It's a fruit? No, well, sort of, a pumpkin, believe it or not, is a berry. Oh, what? It's a berry. How? Why? It's a berry. Because it said, I'm going to be a berry. And it's very true. It's a fricking berry. Y'all, it's a fricking berry. And I looked it up and saw our cucumbers and avocados are a berry. Banana's are a berry. Eggplants are a berry. These are berries. They are fleshy, seeded fruits. They're formed from a single flower containing one ovary. Boom. Baries. Anne says that the biggest fun slam she's here to debunk

is that pumpkins are not a vegetable. You win. I am going to get Casey's opinion and see because we recorded that years ago and I'm sure he's gotten a lot of clap back. So I'm gonna send him some of your research and see if he has a statement if he wants to correct that. I'm gonna send this just in.

Casey clap was available for comment and you'll have to listen until the very end to learn his current thoughts on apples. But no arm wrestling, I broke my shoulder, you were so... Hey, that's off the table. Off the table, no arm wrestling at all. Maybe it'll be a battle of widths.

And I always ask the last things, I always ask the hardest part about your job, or maybe if you have a least favorite apple or something that's just even though you have like the best job in the world, there's got to be something annoying about it. Oh yeah, meetings. Meetings, paperwork, reports. I mean, my mom was cute because she said, what do you do when the winter? And I said, right, papers, right,. And she goes, they pay you to write.

I don't want that. So, I love being out in the orchard. I love talking with growers, talking with consumers. So that's the highlight. But everybody always goes, oh, it must be so beautiful to be out here. But on a day like today and the fall, it was gorgeous, but we're out there when it's raining, when there's bleeding. So there's a lot to that.

But for me, it's the fascination with everything that you can discover. And we have colleagues, you know, they'll come down and we said we're playing detective today. We're going to try to figure out this problem. And you can impact the industry as well and consumers benefit. But when you're asking favor, I'm going to tell people to try different apples outside of their comfort range because there's a good chance that if you grow up eating Macintosh or golden delicious, you like that apple, but your kids might like something different. golden delicious. You like that apple but your kids might like something different. And so that's important. And then in terms of least favorite apple.

If I say it, I'm going to get nasty. Can you say what you don't like about it? Well, so I'm not a big fan of Rome Beauty. Okay. We got it out of her. Which is a big apple in Ohio. and it is a good processing apple, but I told the growers when we were releasing these apples, just give me some of your role-makers. I think we're done. We're done growing as many of those.

Well, you know, I and I should ask, first time question asked her, Abby Lawson, I will throw in one more listener question here. Um, wants to know, what are your favorite things to do with a glut of apples? So many people want to know, like in Anika's cat, Aria, does the pommologists have any good recipe to use apples in the fall? What is your favorite recipe? What do you recommend?

Okay. So, it's time to be truthful because my children will write in. And Apple Breeder, any Apple Breeder, any fruit breeder, tens not to make a lot of products with their, because I eat apples from sunrise to sunset. I turn green. And the last thing I want to do is make a pie. I'm getting better now that the kids are older, but I worked with Amy Traverso on a cookbook,

a one-woolier. There's so many good cookbooks if you go to your state's Apple Association or the US Apple Association. There's free Apple recipes online. Apple Crisp is something really easy to do. Sootate apples with cinnamon and fresh whipped cream. I say the easier the better. If you'd like to produce this very detailed and smart guide to Apple recipes, it's called

the Apple Lovers cookbook. And we'll link it in the show notes and please send me your pies. Just kidding, don't because I check my PO box like every three weeks, honestly. But for a while, my kids used to have to remind me to bring Apple's home because, well, I was enjoying them. They weren't getting enough. So like, mom, you should have a purse full of apples at the end of the day. Well, on. Do people ever ask you as a doctor of pommology if there's something about knowledge in

an apple, if that a biblical story is somehow rings true for pommologist that the more apples they eat, the smarter they get. I have enough people that would give me grief, so they would argue against that. It probably loosened some of those IQ points. And besides that, let's drive you crazy, because I understand it was a pomegranate. Something got mistranslated, right? Right. The words in Latin were very similar. Well, I guess pome and pometa tear and pomeology. They're all in the same family there, right? Right. Oh, this has been such a joy.

I cannot tell you how excited I am. I got to talk to you. I'm having a real fan girl moment. You're just like such a huge name and genius. Thank you so much. Now this has been phenomenal and you know just remember that. So I always say support your local farmer, but also that there's people like me and every crop that you eat. So when you sit down to dinner, some some crazy man or woman spends her life trying to improve that crap for you. Eat your fruits and veggies, love your fruits and veggies.

That's right. It was a pleasure. So ask kind people, crispy questions, and shine one on your thigh for Dr. Susan K. Brown. And I hope you're about to layer some plaids, go out, hit an orchard, eye myself, plan on being cozy, even if I get heatstroke. And there are links on our website at alleword.com slash oligies slash palmology with more about Susan and her work and links to so many studies we discussed,

as well as links in the show notes. And we're at oligies on Twitter and Instagram. I'm Allie Word with One L on both. We have small oligies episodes, which are shorter kid-friendly versions that are safe for all ages. Those are linked in the show notes as well. Thank you Zeke Rodriguez-Thomas,

Jared Sleeper, and of course, Mercedes-Mailin for working on those. Aaron Talbert, admins the allergies podcast Facebook group, and I've known her since we were four, and one of my favorite MEMS together is taking a field trip to Abel Hill outside of Place, or Bill California, when we were just taught. And if I had a time machine, I'd go back and visit those days. Noelle Dilworth is our scheduling producer, Susan Hale is our ever-powerful managing director who also fact checks, makes sure everyone gets paid and handles merch. Emily White of the Wordery makes our

professional transcripts, Kelly Ardwyer, works on the website Happy Birthday to the fanciest of Nancy's, your podgram, who's celebrated on October 16th, and many thanks to lead editor Mercedes-Mailand of mainland audio, who travels long and widening road. Every week to make sure these episodes reach their destination, which is your brain. Nick Thorburn wrote the theme music, and if you stick around to the end of the episode, I promise to the thoughts of Dundrology, episode guest and co-host of his own tree themed podcast,

completely arbitrary Casey clap. I reached out within an hour or two. I opened my email to an audio message from him. What's up, Bally? This is Casey clap, talking to you about apples. You reached out, I am happy to have a conversation or at least present to you a little bit of my thoughts. First off, my thoughts on apples, nothing's changed in the day to day. There are freak of nature is what I'm saying. However,

I have recently, Alex and I specifically, we went back and redid our episode on the Apple tree. And you know what, I have to admit, in the grand scheme, my opinion on apples has changed because I learned that the original apple, the OG apple from Kazakhstan, had a fascinating history of development through the peoples that used to live there and still do today and still have apples as a huge part of their culture. And now we have bred these apples in this, you know, strange wild way that we do today. So the apple as we know it, are you going to plant an apple in your house and eat all of them because you think you're going to have a nice orchard? Probably not. Plant a big tree that's going to do

cool stuff anyway and just let an orchard us take care of the really, you know, the intense apples that everyone loves. And I think the apple is a wonderful example of how animals and humans and time and plant all have worked together to create this thing that now today is a monstrosity. But, yeah, you know, I guess you, I guess you, yeah, I just go back and forth. Anyway, apples are pretty cool.

I'm in fact, I'm going to eat one right now just because, yeah, well, I have one. Hope you're doing well. Casey Clap, co-host of Completely Arbitrary. Alongside Alex Croson, who is also a really good musician and I've listened to Alex's latest album, sorry I missed you, probably several hundred times. Good dudes.

Also, I think Casey, I think he just has a really fast metabolism and requires some protein with a snack, and that's not the apple's fault. But we should do a study on it. Also one more secret. I had been really, really sick the last few months, and one day I got some mail from my sister, Janelle, and it was a bunch of Halloween socks, because I love Halloween socks. That made me so happy.

And also, in the package, it was a bag of sour, green apple gumballs. For a second, I was mystified. I was like, why'd she send me these? Then I remembered when she first got her driver's license, and I was 14. We would run errands to the store for my mom, but take every back road possible, and just drive around listening to this old U2 tape. And then at the store, they had those gumball machines, so for a quarter, I'd get a green apple one. And then on the right home, I would chew it, and I would blow the green apple favor into

Janelle's face, because little sisters are the the worst and she would plead with me not to. But then I became tradition. So last month when I opened this care package to see these green apple gumballs, oh, it all came rushing back and my heart leapt and I've been chewing them and those times driving around with my sister in the summer with a window down,

apple gumball fumes in the breeze, man, that's another stop on the old alleyward time machine of classic memes. Okay, go have a snack, but not if it's been rotting on the ground. Okay, happy Sputobuber, bye. Hackadermy, Tollige, Amiology, CryptoZoology, Lysology, Danosing Technology, Meteorology, Do you like apples? Yeah. Well, I got a number. How do you like their maps? Thank you.