Ologies with Alie Ward - Primatology (MONKEYS & APES) with Kate Gilmore

Episode Date: September 26, 2017

Settle in with Alie Ward and guest Kate Gilmore, a professional primatologist and lead keeper of the great apes and Old World monkeys at the Los Angeles Zoo. Learn about chimpanzee mating, why zookeepers don't wear FitBits, primate DRAAAMA, the erroneous philosophy behind truck nuts and what happens in the middle the night at the zoo. Also get some good info on primate conservation and how to be a friend to orangutans.More info including links on ape conservationBecome a patron on PatreonShirts now available at OlogiesMerch.comFollow Ologies on Twitter and InstagramMusic by Nick ThorburnMixing and final production by Jason Scardamalia

Okay. Welcome to the second episode of ologies. You made it. Before we move on to this week's episode, let's look back at last week's episode. I have to tell you guys something. Let's sit down. Let's have a heart to heart. So thank you so much if you listened to Vulcanology. I hope you liked it. There was a little bit of a tech diff with the first episode and whoever subscribed and woke up early and listened to it. A few thousand of you got totally the wrong episode. You got an older, not totally edited version of Vulcanology that had no format, none of my narration, no sound effects, some weird jump cuts, and you might have no idea. So as you know, I've been working on this project for like 10 years. I edited the first episode of Vulcanology

for a couple months and just somehow universe felt like kicking people in the dick and somehow the network uploaded the wrong file. But the good news is the right episode went up and that day. And so a ton of people got the right episode. But if you listened to it and you thought this is pretty good, I guess, if you didn't hear any narration like what we had in the earthquake kit, can the end of sausage growing up as a kid or how to pronounce an Icelandic volcano or how I feel about volcano romances. Boy, howdy, did it ruffle my feathers. You might want to delete and re-download to get the real version. Let's just put a good spin on it. Let's call it bonus content. So enjoy. Thank you to everyone who's listened and subscribed.

Let's just move on. Let's move on to episode two. Okay. So you know when you're in, let's say you're in a big city and you're watching people bustle by and people are wearing suits and carrying briefcases and coffee and they're walking around in high heels and you realize everyone, all of us, we're all just a bunch of smooth naked apes in underpants. We're just a bunch of primates. Does that ever freak you out? It freaks me out a lot. Let's talk about the etymology of primatology, though. Primatology comes from the Latin for prima of first rank or chief of the highest order. So of course it's primates naming primates. So of course we named ourselves that. We're such dicks. This episode about primatology is a dang, ding, dang soap opera. It is full of torrid chimpanzee

affairs and backstabbing six-year-olds on birth control. There's first steps. There's quitting the entertainment business, nat collecting. There's lobster costumes and really an unraveling of our own feelings by projecting them on to other primate species, at least for me. This primatologist is a friend of a friend and a certain amount of wrangling, let me tell you, to get her on the podcast because she's busy as hell and she's got a kid. She's got another one on the way. We had an email chain, 34 emails back to back to back. And I finally just kind of air quotes happened to pop by the zoo and just say hi. So we met up while she was holding a small monkey and I just tried to act casual and not starstruck. And finally met her and proved to her I wasn't

like a weird neck beard cat fishing her for some IRL FaceTime. So we arranged a time. I went to her lovely home. We sat at her kitchen table to talk about ape genitals for about an hour. So please prepare to learn more than you ever thought you might ever learn about monkeys and apes and yourself who is an ape. Never forget, you're an ape wearing underpants, probably. I don't know your business. I sincerely, truly dig this person so much. I, we've got nervous being around her because she's so cool. So please enjoy professional primatologist, Kate Gilmore. Your levels are good. Yeah, your levels are good. You're absolutely loud and fast talker.

That's great. And I go on really long so you can. Okay, I'll interrupt you. You totally fine because I'll interrupt you too. So Kate's official job is lead keeper of the great apes and old world monkeys at the Los Angeles Zoo. I think I got that right. Usually do the chimpanzees, but I'm the lead keeper over the great apes and old world monkeys. That's gorillas, orangutan and a whole slew of really cool gibbons and other primates. What's an old world monkey exactly? Those are primates and monkeys that come from Africa. So new world monkeys would be South American monkeys, old world or Africa. I never knew that. Because they're older. And a cool thing how you can tell the difference

is that South American new world monkeys, they have prehensile tails. So they, they can actually use them to hang and curl and things like that. The older monkeys, they're just more used for balance and things like that. Really? Boom. We're like 30 seconds in and we're already smarter. I was going to ask you, what's your best, like you're at a cocktail party and someone's like, okay, what do you do? And you're like, I'm a primatologist. Like what would normally stops the conversation. People aren't stoked about that. No, they are stoked because they go, wait, what? And you go, yeah, that's true. So it's like, it's kind of fun. Like I'm a fun date. Right. I get a lot of questions and somewhere around the conversation,

they go, I'm so sorry. I'm doing this. Like I just have so many questions. And I said, you are not, it's fine. Like I'm very used to it. I don't mind it. If you're going to be a zoo keeper, you're going to be super passionate about your job and the animals you work with. So we love talking about them. I mean, it's, it's the easiest thing in the world to do. So, um, questions we get a lot of are, well, how do you tell the difference between apes and monkeys? Okay, how? Monkeys have tails. That's it. Stop. Full stop. Really? That's what you need to know. It's not that hard. I think I will never forget this fact. And I will never stop looking at primate butts because of it. To be fair, most of my barbecues and cocktail

parties are with adults because, um, you know, I'm, I'm good at talking to, you have to be able to talk to four year olds about this stuff and like college people and adults about this stuff. So, um, you have to really tailor what you're going to say. But when I talk to most adults at barbecues and whatnot, they always ask about sex and like, well, I heard that bonobos have sex all the time. Right. Okay. Here we go again. And so they want to know the difference of like bonobos and chimpanzees. And so the fact that I always put out that always makes them like, you know, do a spit take is that you can tell what kind of social society a primate has by looking at their testicle size. Tell me everything. You got it. Okay. So if you have like in a

chimpanzee society, they have lots of males and lots of females all living together. So there's a lot of sexual competition. So the males have to breed with all the females and none of the males know which babies are theirs. That helps the community because then the males all have to kind of help watch over the babies because it could be theirs, it could not be, they don't know. But that means that they constantly have to be breeding all the females. So that means they have sex like 10 times a day. Oh man. And then each one has to be successful. So they have something like a six or a two to six billion sperm count per day. In order to do that, they have to have extremely large testicles. Oh my God, they have monster

nards. They have monster nards. So, but then you're like, okay, but like, what about a gorilla? Gorillas are huge. They're like among the largest great apes. Well, a gorilla society, you have one male and a whole bunch of ladies. So he's not competing with anybody most of the time. He doesn't have to prove anything. He doesn't have to breed them 10 times a day because they know that they're his and he knows that they're theirs. So his balls are teeny, tiny. No way. So to have big balls means that you're kind of a cock. Yes. I wanted to see how humans compared and I now have like six tabs open on my computer about sperm. It seems like the average for human is probably around 200 million a day, but it varies a bunch, human to human. Now chimps and bonobos,

they need more ammo because they don't have as much standing or rank. So they more ammo than humans, gorillas and orangutans are like, no dog, I'm good. I don't need that big of balls because I know whose kids these are. So next time you see someone with like a pair of truck nuts on their vehicle, just pull over, let them know those things should be marbles if you really want to show what an alpha you are. You're doing it all wrong. Also, why did you put testicles on your car? That's weird. Can you imagine if your mom hung a synthetic vagina off of her exhaust pipe just to show how fertile and maternal she was? That's weird. Okay, back to gorillas. So with the gorillas, they have these tiny sacks. Tiny, tiny. Because they're like,

all the ladies are mine. You only need to have sex like once every few days maybe, so you just don't eat a lot. What happens to the to the beta and like gamma males then? For gorillas? Yeah. Well, it's usually one male and the females. And so when like an offspring male gets old enough to kind of be a little bit competitive with that, they leave and then they form these bachelor groups. So you have these groups of males, young males that walk around, hang out, get big and strong, practice being really tough. And then when they think they're ready to take over, they'll go find another group and try to kick that silverback out. So then you have an old man get booted and then the new young stud comes in and takes over all of his ladies.

Ouch. Yeah. But for chimpanzees, which all live together, you have the alpha, beta and all the other males there, all of them can breed. It's just that the alpha males will probably get more and get the best ladies, but there are lots of different breeding strategies. So all of them have very large testicles so that they can because even the ones that are super low ranking can do sneak breeding. What is a sneak breed? A sneak breed is when a male will kind of catch an eye of a lady and it's exactly what you think it is. He goes, and then she'll kind of nod her head and they'll go behind a tree and do it. Why behind a tree so that no one knows? So the male doesn't see him.

So if he's low ranking, he could get his butt kicked for taking a nice lady. Do you think that the female is like, I'm going to go bone this guy behind a tree? Don't you think she embarrassed at all? Like that she's, no, no, she's not okay. No. They're just doing it behind the back of the alpha. And then, I mean, we can tell like in our group, so at the LA Zoo, we have 18 chimpanzees. It's one of the largest multi-male multi-female groups in a zoo setting in the country, actually the largest at 18. So, and we watch them a lot. I mean, that's part of our job, is to observe and get to know this group extremely well. I mean, 18, that's like

bachelor in paradise numbers. That's like a whole seven males and 11 females. And we have four generations ranging in age from two and a half years to 50 years old. So we really have been able to recreate a group that you would see in the wild, which is awesome. But because we watch them so long each day and over so many years and like generations, it's that we know that there are males that have certain females that they always find very sexy. And there are females that, you know, some males are kind of in the friend zone. They might get lucky occasionally, but for the most part, they're buds. But then other males that, I mean, anytime they can, they'll just go ahead. And so we have a, like we have a late teen male

who's not quite an adult, but is certainly starting to make his mark. And so I've been working with him for six years. And so six years ago, he would always sneak breed. He always had to sneak breed. And now he's doing it right in front of the alpha, kind of watching him like, what do you think of me now? Bud, if you like drama, you will love chimpanzees. Does the alpha kick his ass? Yes. And then so what happens if they get to a point where like there's serious fighting, teeth, blood, what do you do? So that's a good question. Another thing that people are kind of confused by or they kind of like hear things through pop culture of like, so like they're going to kill you, right? Is a question we get like, well, what happens if

you go into the exhibit? Well, they'll kill you because they're very territorial. They're very strong and they're very aggressive by nature. They also have very wonderful sides to them. I mean, we see most of that almost all the time, but they do have a very dark side, much more so than the other great apes. So fighting is very normal for them. It's very common in the wild or in captivity. It's what they do is how they release a whole lot of their energy. And but you if you sit and you watch a fight and you just wait, they make up really, really fast. They do. Yeah. So the community, the community is thicker than anything. And they'll defend each other to the death if they need to against outside chimpanzee groups or outside forces of

predation or what have you. But within the group, they piss each other off all the time. How do you know when they've made up? Like, do they do a certain hug? Yeah. So it's both. So they really communicate through vocalizing, facial expressions and body positioning. So reconciling, you can do a, if someone's kind of apologizing, they would put their wrist in the other chimpanzee's mouth. It's a very trusting thing of like, are we good? Are we good? We're good. Because I'm like, I'm trusting you to put my body part near your mouth and you're not going to bite me. So like, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. Are we good? Yikes. And then they'll do that. And then they'll be like, and we're cool. And then they'll groom. So grooming is like they

quit like brushing someone's hair or massaging them. It kind of reinforces social bonds. In the wild, it's also used to like clean them of bugs and dead skin cells and stuff like that. But captive chimps should be a lot cleaner than that. So for our guys, it's mostly social bonding. But we normally find that when males, and again, chimpanzees are aggressive and they're violent and pretty unpredictable and lovely too. Right. They do have that side. Usually when the males go after the females, they use their hands and feet. There's a lot of punching, hitting, jumping on. And again, chimpanzees are built to withstand this. Like I say, chimpanzees, they are chimpanzees. They are very tough. They are built for this. And so people get upset seeing that

because they are so human. Like they kind of just turn them into humans and are like, oh my gosh, you have to do something. But they're not humans. They're chimpanzees. They're completely different. And this is what they are built to do. So the males will usually use hands and feet to just kind of beat on the females. The females have no problem using teeth and nails and will just bite anyone if they're really upset too. So it's not just the males doing it. The females are really nasty. Take away. Do not fuck with the chimp. Occasionally, we run. We like to have all our chimpanzees running in one big group because that is much more natural through different medical reasons or social issues over the last few years. Occasionally, we do have multiple

groups. And at one time, we're experimenting with just like an all male and all female group. The boys got along fine. There was no problems. They were chilling out, relaxing. I mean, the calmest, we have seen them in years. The females lasted two days before they started turning on each other. Really? It was complete mean girls. No. It was like real housewives. Awful. Awful. Awful. We're like, what are they doing? I was very disheartened and curious about this. So I ended up doing some research and I came across this paper titled Female Competition in Chimpanzees. What I learned is that females disperse from their family when they come of age and then they go into groups of non-relatives. And so they have to compete for food with unrelated

females. And so competition, I suppose, becomes more ingrained. But also, I wanted to find out what that said about us as humans because we can't learn about animals without projecting them onto our own behavior. So the paper said, enhanced cognitive ability may have led to the evolution of indirect competitive strategies where human females could avoid physical injury, but nevertheless, harm their rivals such as through gossip and social exclusion. So next time someone calls you a bitch or doesn't invite you to their bachelorette party, maybe it's because they consider you competition for their resources. I don't know. Next time you're feeling bitchy towards someone, ask yourself, am I worried that somehow this will lead me to have less food

or shelter? I don't know. Who knows? But if you're going to project and go down weird avenues where we become introspective about human behavior, let's just all agree that insecurity is one of the roots of evil. This is true for females and males. Okay, onward. By the way, this is the opinions of the podcaster Allie Warden, not necessarily the primatology community in whole. Let's get back to how they decide on which male they throw in with a group of persniggity ladies. And so they need some testosterone. They just do. It's not very feminist to say, but the female chimpanzees, they need males. So we can just move one, the lowest ranking male we have, move them over to the female group, and the females are good.

No way. How did you determine who's the biggest loser chimpanzee that we can throw in with the ladies? We know. It's pretty obvious. How do you tell? Access to mates and access to food and the best sleeping places. So if you have like a male sitting somewhere and you throw him something really yummy, like an apple or a pear, and a female walks by and he doesn't even pick up the food, he looks the other way and pretends he never saw it. So the female can come get him. Well, that's pretty sad. But he knows that if he picks up the fruit, she's going to go after him. And if a female goes after a male, you know, he's really low ranking because in chimpanzee society, the males outrank the females. Oh my God. So wait, access to females, food and sleeping places.

So if a dude is a buster, like he won't have a girlfriend, he'll have maybe a shitty place to sleep, only eat Wendy's or something. Do you do that a lot? Do you apply lessons with primates to humans too much and you're like, okay, this is, there needs to be a line here. I think an important thing for us is, and it's hard sometimes is like, you know, I look at one of my chimpanzees and I see Yoshi, I see Pandora, I see Sean, I see Ben. And you have to remember that no, no, no, no, no, they're like chimpanzee first, right? It's kind of the same with people and dogs, you know, they're a dog first, but you see them as fluffy or right Rover was like, no, no, no, but what their needs are is dog first, right? So we know that. But you know, patrons do not, they just see them

as things that kind of look like people and should be treated as such. So some of the things that they see, they don't quite understand. Who gets to name these chimps? Well, it depends. Usually it's the keepers that name them. But they, a lot of them are adopted through donors. So in the past five years, the Los Angeles Zoo has had five babies born, which is very adorable. And they decided to name four of them in Swahili, which is the predominant culture where chimpanzees come from. And they also have some with American names, like there's Ben. Ben the Chimp. And I read a little bit about Ben. Ben's father, quite a few chimpanzee babies, hasn't he? Yes, he's had four. So yeah, so going back to like the breeding

of our chimpanzees. So chimpanzees, you know, they breed all the time. They think it's really fun. We don't stop them from that. We couldn't even if we wanted to. So all the females are on birth control. So just like the pill, yeah, they take the pill. So we pop out a pill every day for them in their little pill packs. Are they veterinary grade? No, no, no, they're just start pills. No. Yeah, they take all the same medications that we do because their physiology is so incredibly close. We share 99% of our DNA with them, which is super crazy. Right. So you can, you pop out like an ortho tricycline and you're like, here you go. Do you put it in their food or? Yeah, we crush it up and put it in juice for them every morning. And, you know,

we have some that are on like blood pressure medicine for the older ones. The ones that are being watched for heart issues because of their age will get, you know, like a baby aspirin, just like a person would. You know, if they're sick, they can get antibiotics. We do cultures to make sure that we're giving them the right ones. No Adderall or Viagra or anything. They do not need that. Yeah, either of that. Nope, they're good. Not many behavior modification drugs, just more medical ones. Do you learn a lot about human behavior from watching primate behavior? Do you figure out what makes you grumpy? Absolutely. Like what? Well, I would say people also want to know why do I have my job? What do I find so interesting

about them? Because you can be a zookeeper and work with pigs or giraffes or, you know, yellow mountain frogs. Not everyone's a primate keeper. Not everyone's a chimpanzee keeper. We are kind of a few and far between to be found who are like super passionate about chimpanzees because they are tough. They're very, very difficult to take care of and very challenging. And so in order to stick it out and do what you have to really, really adore them and love them for who they are. And that also means accepting their good sides and their dark sides. One of the reasons I really like them is that everything they feel, they feel at a 10. You know, they're happy at a 10. They're upset at a 10. They're sad at a 10. They're loving at a 10.

They have no filters. They cannot do that. They don't understand how to do that. So if someone's pissed off at someone else, they let them have it. And then like one's like, we're cool. Sit, groom, we're good. We just cover everything up, but the emotions are all the same. And so absolutely. Have you changed your behavior since becoming a zookeeper? Actually, I decided to breastfeed my son after watching them do it because I had gone through three pregnancies and births with them. And for my own reasons, I hadn't been planning on breastfeeding. And I was like, you know what? We are closest relatives and they seem to figure it out. Okay. So maybe I should give it a shot. So I did. I have talked to one

other primatologist and not interviewed her for the podcast, but just was chatting with her. And I asked her if there's anything about primates that has changed her own behavior. And she said literally the same thing. Really? She said she decided she breastfed her kid until he was like six or something. She was like, I looked it off. Okay. My eyes. Yeah. I was like, that's a long time. That's a, but she was like, you know, she was very like, maybe it was five, I think it was like five or six, but she was like watching, watching these apes and seeing how that developed a bond between, between, uh, you know, the ape and the child, the mother and the child. But it's interesting that that is the same thing that you took away from it.

It's the natural biology. I was like, I'll give it a shot. Now I only made it three months. But so for anyone, the breastfeeding advocates out there, you know, do whatever. I don't care. Yeah. Would you say that your children are raised in captivity? I guess they kind of would be. Yeah. I suppose. So what made you love primates so much? Why did you become a zookeeper? Why do I like, I don't know. It was really, no, I'm growing up, I was a science kid, but I changed a lot. So it'd be like, um, paleontology first. And then, um, I did, yeah, there was all definitely a whole, um, astronomy thing and space. And then around fourth grade, um, I was a very early reader as well. And fourth grade, my mom got me the book,

gorillas in the mist from the library. And I just, you know, dog eared that thing. And I was like, gorillas are amazing. And then after that, around seventh grade, I know I wrote a paper about being a microbiologist. And then eighth grade, it was marine biology. I was very scatter shot. Um, but primates, I just kind of always thought they were cool. I, you don't have a lot of connection or experience with them. So it wasn't something that I was around all the time. I mean, I would go visit the zoo and they were always my favorites. I went to the Bronx zoo was my zoo growing up. And so they were always my favorites. Kate says that she got off track a little bit in college because she found what she was really, really good at naturally was writing and reading

and editing and doing more communications journalism kind of stuff. So in college, she was doing that. But then all my extracurricular and extracredit things were like, still paleontology and like invertebrate biology and environmental law. And I looked like as a senior and I was like, what am I doing? Like this is not normal. It was too late to switch. So I finished that degree and then went back to get another bachelor's in zoology. So like, this is clearly what I should be doing. It's not something I'm naturally great at. I have to work at it, but it's what makes me really happy. Zoology, what does it mean to work hard at zoology? You have to do a lot of science classes, including like stats and vertebrate biology and learn all

about trilobites up to the higher form chimpanzees and whales and dolphins and things like that. You also have to have no ego because you need to gain a lot of experience. And that starts out very humbling. I mean, my first job, and again, I started a little bit later. I wasn't sure about my path early on. My first job was dressing up like a lobster outside of the New England Aquarium as a 20 year old. What? Yeah. But I did it. I did it. So I would get that internship credit as an education intern to teach kids about marine life. Oh my God. How hot was it? Was it hot in there? It's awful. Really? My antenna were really long. Oh my God. Would people come and hug you or would they scream? Who doesn't want to wave hide of a lobster on the street? Well, okay. It's

certainly just like a sanction lobster, like as long as you're somewhere you're supposed to be. By the way, I was desperate to see a photo of a person in a lobster costume. So I went to the New England Aquarium's Instagram and I did a deep dive, which I'm right now I'm realizing that is an egregious pun. I'm sorry. Deal with it. I didn't find pictures of anyone in a lobster costume, sadly, but I did find one of a human being wearing a plush, hammerhead, shark getup. Kind of like a mascot of the sea. It was glorious. If you like looking at fish, get hip to the New England Aquarium's Instagram because it's very relaxing to look at. So that was your first internship at the New England Aquarium. And then I did several different,

I had to learn to live out of my car and pack up because in the zoo world, again, you need education, you need experience. I had a job for the summer camping out on the planes and it sounded very fancy because we were doing neonatal prey identification of plovers, which basically means setting up bug traps and picking through bugs to see what bugs live on the planes. Really? But of plovers. That's a kind of bird. So how did it, how did the, how did the bugs and the birds, what were you exactly like, what data were you gathering? To know what the baby birds are eating. Okay. Because it was someone's grad project and I was the, the grunt worker on there. So it's like, I will look through this vial of 222 gnats and

let you know how many of them are this kind and how many of them are this kind. And I had a little ID chart so I can know because I'm not a entomologist. So she went from gnats to primates? There were chickens in between. Okay. There are fancy chickens, fancy, very endangered at Waters Prairie Chickens in Texas. Again, you start small. Okay. When you landed at the LA Zoo, did you have a choice between gorillas and chimpanzees? Oh, no. So when you are starting out in the zoo world, and again, it depends on what animals you like, but you can't really be picky. It's, there's not a lot of zoo jobs out there. And there's a lot of people that want to do it. And again, it's not, it's not high paying. It's not glory work. So the people who are doing

it really want to be doing it. So they don't get discouraged very easily. So you have all kinds of stories of people volunteering for five, six, seven years before they get a part-time job, before they get a full-time job. People who work in the education departments and the docents you see and even probably some of like the service staff you see at zoos want to be zookeepers. It's just once you're a zookeeper, you don't tend to leave because you, you attained it. It's a hard job, but you want to, you want to stay there. Plus you got a whole posse that you're friends with. You've got like 18 chimpanzee friends. You can't just leave. Well, what is a typical day like for you? Run me through like fast forward. Do you first come in and do feedings? Do you get there

at five in the morning? Like what's the deal? So our days are pretty, we are eight to five, like, but most zookeepers will work weekends and holidays. So that's awesome. If you work long enough, maybe they'll give you a Sunday off or like a Saturday off. I'm now up to having a Sunday Monday off, which is super cool. Our days, especially with chimpanzees, they can be different, but for the most part a regular day would be coming in. The first thing you do your AM check, make sure everyone's okay overnight, make sure there were no fights, treat any new wounds that there might be. We do medical care in the morning. So all of their meds get given out, kind of checks everyone. Then we clean the main exhibit and that can take anywhere from half an hour to two and a half hours,

depending on how many days they've been out there or what's been going on. Or if we gave them something super fun to play with and they ripped it into a bajillion pieces, we have to clean all that up. So we set up the exhibit and then we open the door and hope that they go out. Chimpanzees are very smart. So a good way to keep them happy and captivity is to give them as much choice as possible. So if they want to go out, great. If they don't, fine. They can do whatever they want. We work them in a fission fusion management style. So that mimics the wild. So they can decide who they want to be with and where they want to go. So a fission fusion society, I just looked this up, is one where a group changes its size or

the composition depending on the time. So you might have a bunch of animals all sleeping together and that would be fusion or they might split off, which would be fission. So they might go into groups, smaller groups depending on the day to forage or one might sit in a corner and look at their phone during a party. So we'll have whole family groups decide that they want to splinter off and not join the others for the day and that's fine. We'll just put them back together at night. But let's say they all decide to go out, which most of the time they do. Again, they are a big family, even though they piss each other off, they're a big family. So the most of the time they go out, then we spend the next four hours cleaning the areas where they just were.

So we have a three-story building and a whole secondary enclosure that we clean. We do some educational talks and then we spend most of the afternoon getting ready for dinner. So it's making behavioral enrichment, which we give them two to three times a day to keep their minds and bodies nice and active. Like fidget spinners or weights or what? They would just smash those. That is not enough for a chimpanzee. Nope. Or because this is Los Angeles, they'll have the crew from Planet of the Apes come in to record chimpanzee vocalizations or to watch how they move. These kinds of things probably don't happen in other parts of the country, but it's LA. Richmond, dinner. Notice how we haven't

sat down much during that day. I'm sure. We do get a lunch in there sometimes, occasionally in the middle of the day. How many steps a day do you walk? Do you have like a fit bit? I had a fit bit and it was about, a regular day was about 22,000. Damn. And I was like, oh, well, that's not even like before I get home and run after my toddler. So I'm not going to wear this anymore. I think I'm good. Yeah, you're good. That's 10 miles a day plus. Yeah. That's crazy. So we are moving, moving, moving. Do you have to keep a log like today, Yoshi and Donna really went at it? Oh, yeah. You do. Yeah, they're called, I call them in my like KDRs, like Keeper Daily Records, Daily Reports. And so we have a copy at the building.

So any keeper coming in can see what's been going on and we keep them for the last decade. And that's all hot, hot gossip. It's all hot gossip. It can be boring stuff like, hey, we have, we caught like three rats today. This is where they're living. So we're going to keep catching those, or it can be something where, you know, some chimpanzees started on a medication, what's one finished a medication, or it's behavioral. Like today, Glenn and Sean were fighting and that doesn't normally happen between the alpha beta. So that's kind of interesting. We'll keep an eye on that. Or someone is swelling, wouldn't shift and the boys just sat with them all day. I was like swelling. What? Oh, okay, that comes. We need to, you know, check swellings

and cycles. Like we have a five year old female now that we're keeping a really close eye on to see when she has her first sexual swelling. Because when she does, we need to start talking about birth control for her. At five. We're starting to look at five, probably by six. We'll need to put her on birth control. Is that normal or just kids growing up too fast these days? Um, it's being careful. Okay. So it's pretty normal. In captivity, the animals do tend to breed a little bit earlier because they have our better access to nutrition and very good health care in a, in a AZA accredited zoo. What is an AZA accredited zoo? I had no idea. So the AZA is the association of zoos and aquariums. And in response to some

shady animal exhibits, a group of animal husbandry and wildlife experts began doing essentially inspections. So according to their site, it's not easy to get only 10% of the roughly 2,800 USDA licensed animal exhibitors in the country are AZA accredited. It's a pretty prestigious thing. So in an AZA accredited zoo, health care, pretty good. Very good health care in a, in a AZA accredited zoo. Really good health care. No copays. So they're overall, they're healthier. They develop a little bit faster. So they typically wouldn't have a baby until 12, but in captivity, that can happen much earlier. And what's your lifespan? About mid 40s, mid 50s. Okay.

And in the wild and captivity, it's basically the same, but it's kind of, it's not black and white because the infant mortality in the wild is so high that it's kind of like, if a, if a wild chimpanzee gets to age 12, they really should live to be about 50, but not, not as many do. And in AZA zoos and sanctuaries, you have very, very low infant mortality rate because again, we can, we can intervene if you have a baby not eating, right? And our chimpanzees are not going to die of malnutrition because we weigh them and keep close tabs on their health. And if someone's who's low ranking is not getting their proper allotment, then we do supplemental feedings for them to make sure that they are. There's also like no leopards in urine.

There are no leopards. Nope. No lions. No hunting. Yeah. Big benefit. Poachers, not so much in the zoo. You know, I was listening back to this and I realized I don't really know how I feel about zoos. I don't know if you know how you feel about zoos. Zoos seem great for the apes, or are they? I don't know. And I think when I was doing this interview, I was having such a lovely time talking, I didn't even take it in that direction, which was a little irresponsible. So I sent Kate a 35th email and I asked her, what does she say to people who don't know how they feel about zoos? What does she say to people who, who don't like zoos? What's the deal? And she wrote me back a really great,

concise, informative thing. I'll read it to you real quick, just because I think it's really good to get straight from a primatologist zookeeper's mouth. And by mouth, I mean fingers and email. So here's what she said. So most people are opposed to zoos because they believe that animals belong in the wild instead. However, there isn't much wild left. She said most of our wild populations of endangered species around the world are living in managed areas that are susceptible to corruption and illegal poaching and timber removal. Also the illegal pet and bushmeat trade. So she said animals in captivity in accredited zoos and sanctuaries are born in captivity and they act as ambassadors of their species. They teach millions of people about their wild

counterparts and how to help them. So there's a lot of information about zoos that's very outdated and incorrect. So if you're not sure, visit your local zoo and learn, talk to the education staff, talk to the docents, the animal keepers and learn about the care, which can be exquisite, she says, and the work that they do on behalf of the species to conserve and protect and advocate for it and for the biodiversity of the planet. I thought that was interesting. But let's, as apes, talk about apes talking. What do chimpanzees grunt, kind of grunt more? Yeah, they do pant hoots. Like they're, they're like, hello, kind of would be like, like that. Yeah, they also tickle, like, like they laugh when you, when they get tickled. We don't really tickle the adults, but

the adults will tickle each other and the babies and they laugh. Oh, yeah. That's, it's like, um, so creepy. It's awesome. Wait, did you call him pant hoots? Because I, I kind of, I want that to be like my DJ name now. And that's the pant hoots. Jane Goodall does like the most amazing pant hoot I've ever heard a human being do. Hello. Is she a hero of yours? Yes. Yeah, I've been her a couple of times. She's like the dopest, right? She's the dopest. And I got to meet her a couple of times over my career, which is incredibly lucky. And she can command a room talking in a whisper. And I've never seen anyone be able to do that. Does that come in handy when you're, when you're, uh, in the mist with gorillas? I would imagine so. Right. Being able to, she did

chimps, not gorillas. She did chimps, not gorillas. Yeah. Why did I not know that? Jane Goodall's chimpanzees, Diane Fossey was gorillas. Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. Oh, that's okay. It's so ghostly. Galicas was orangutans. Those were the, the leaky trio, the three women that Lewis Leaky gave incredible opportunities to. Okay. This just sent me down a labyrinth learning about the leaky trio, which is in hindsight, very unfortunate branding, but they're also called the trimates. These were three women commissioned by anthropologist named Lewis Leaky in the 1960s to study primates. And Jane Goodall was hired as his secretary, but then he sent her to study chimpanzees. She became Jane Goodall and Baroteg Galicas, German born Baroteg Galicas, Baroteg

Galicas, Baroteg Galicas, Baroteg Galicas. Okay. I think it's Baroteg Galicas. She was hired to study orangutans, which it is almost impossible not to say orangutans. And I've had to edit out so many times. I've accidentally said orangutan. It's orangutan. It's so hard. Anyway, now Diane Fosse, who studied gorillas, was hired after she traveled to Africa in 1963. She just wanted an adventure. And I'm going to just shamelessly quote Wikipedia here because it's one of my favorite sentences in the English language. She came to Leaky's attention by spraying her ankle, falling into the excavation and vomiting on a giraffe fossil. This whole situation sounds like a really good Jennifer Aniston movie. And I love it. Also, why do you think some of the best

primatologists are ladies? Or do you think it's just chance? I think it's like a coin flip. There have been a lot of theories and books written on that. I think, you know, in those, those were the 60s that those women started. I can really only speak to Jane Goodall because she's the one I know the most, but you know, she didn't have the science background. She didn't have all these preconceived notions of what she should be doing. So she just came in and figured it out with very low energy and not a lot of assumptions and kind of was very open-minded rather than being trained. And this is how you do things which would not work for chimpanzees. You can't come at a chimpanzee. You have to just be and see if they kind of accept you. And then

once they kind of do, you can work to get closer to them. So I think, and I've, most of the people who work with chimpanzees are females, but that's also because in the zoo world, it seems to be a little bit more female oriented, but there are certain species that men seem to gravitate more towards. Really? Like what? Like elephants? Really? And like huffstock, like giraffes and things like that. But primates, I don't know. I'm very biased. I'm a female primatologist, but primates are very, very difficult and you have to have an incredible amount of patience, which we don't all have all the time every day, but you need to be very, very patient and understanding and open-minded. And they're going to thwart you any chance they

can. That's what they do. And we always say around the chimp building, like the chimps win every day, the chimps win. And you just have to let it go and do your best to work with them and give them what they need. They might not need what you want them to have. And that's okay. And I think women tend to be a little bit more relaxed and less controlling. Right. A little more nurturing. A little bit more nurturing. Overall, but not. We did. We had several males on the staff and the chimps thought they were great. So that's not

a disqualifier for anyone out there. It's just we've had women with big, loud energy personalities that the apes are kind of like, it took her a lot longer to get integrated. Whereas we've had men come in on their first day and the chimps like, you're cool. So I think it's energy. That makes sense. So the more chill you are, the better. Yeah. They feed off of energy. So does that make, do you think that that has helped you to modulate your own? Like has that chilled you out at all? No. Okay.

No, but it just means you put on a total facade. It's hard because we all have personal lives, zookeepers, obviously everyone does. And it's hard. Sometimes you cannot bring that into work. Like if I'm upset or stressed out of something at home and my personal life, the animals will sense that and will immediately do the opposite of everything you want them to do, which will make you more upset, make you more frustrated. Like it's not good. And those people do not do well working with animals. You just, you have to be able to cart mentalize and stop my phones in my pocket, but I have it on buzz and I'm not going to check it because I've got to deal with this in front of me. And like they have all their own problems too.

And so I have to be super focused. And that's hard when you have stuff going on. I bet. But is there something about it that makes you so happy that you maybe shift mood just because you like being there? Oh yeah. Yeah. I mean, some days are really hard. There are some days when, you know, we don't have enough staff. There are days when we're tired, there are days when we're hurt, there are days when we're sick. And we shouldn't be at work, but the animals need us. So we just make it work. And every single day, something happens that makes it worth going. I love my job.

I have questions that people want me to ask you. This is kind of like a rapid fire round. Okay. I'll do my best. Just answer it. Can I say I don't know or that's insane? Yes. You can say I don't know. Do you like dumb questions in general? 00:43:26,320 --> 00:43:30,080 I always feel like ask smart people dumb questions because chances are,

other people in the room must have that question. Probably. Also, just in general, every once in a while, you might hear a thumping noise. There's no one sneaking up on you in your home or on your commute right now. Kate's dog was just in the corner and thumping its butt around. So if you hear a little noise, I'm so sorry. In post, you can't remove an adorable dog's butt. Okay. You ready for some questions?

Yeah. Go for it. But before we take questions from you, our beloved listeners, we're going to take a quick break for sponsors of the show. Sponsors, why sponsors? You know what they do? They help us give money to different charities every week. So if you want to know where Allergies gives our money, you can go to alleyword.com and look for the tab, Allergies Gives Back. There's like 150 different charities that we've given to already with more every single week.

So if you need a place to go donate a little bit of money, but you're not sure where to go, those are all picked byologists who work in those fields. And this ad break allows us to give a ton of money to them. So thanks for listening and thanks sponsors. Okay. Your questions. Shannon wants to know, do monkeys have fingerprints like humans do? Yes, they do.

Really? Fingernails too. Really? Do they bite them off? They stay pretty short just by their natural being and crawling around and stuff, but they are pretty short. Some of them we call them like witch nails or like coke nails. And we're like, we really want to trim that,

but we don't because they can take care of themselves. They groom themselves and they groom each other. If we give them a mirror, they'll pick their teeth and they'll like kind of pluck their facial hair and things. Isn't that a big thing in philosophy and psychology that if you can recognize your own reflection, does that make you really, really smart? Right. Is that common with apes? Yes.

Okay. Interesting. Okay. I vaguely remembered that this was a thing. So I looked it up and it's called the MSR or mirror self-recognition test. So maybe you've heard of it, that idea that if you can recognize yourself in a mirror, it means something about your consciousness. Okay. Researchers essentially test to see if an animal understands that its reflection is itself or another animal.

Kind of like when your college roommate got stoned and stared in the mirror forever. Not a lot of animals pass it. It's said that dogs don't, but great apes like chimpanzees, possibly gorillas pass, killer whales, dolphins, a bird or two have passed. It's essentially a way to test via laboratory if you are clinically woke. It's also been said to have flaws. It's not considered law. I don't think they've done any studies where they make animals take selfies,

but if they do, please ship me in a pod out into space and leave me there. That was not a rapid-fire question. I'm so sorry. JR wants to know what's the deal with billy apes? Billy apes? Yeah. Have you heard of them? They're a form of William apes? I don't know. I have no idea. B-I-L-L-I. Well, look that up and I have no idea.

No, I don't know. I don't know what that is. I don't know. Maybe that maybe it's short front of William apes. Okay. My neighbor. I don't know. I don't know. Williams, my father called Billy. All right. If this question seemed mysterious,

just wait until you find out what the Billy ape is. Okay. It's from the jungles of Billy in the Democratic Republic of Congo. It's also called the Bondo Mystery Ape. I just spent number one, 45 minutes. Watching videos, trying to figure out if those jungles are called Billy or if it's pronounced like Billy or something. And maybe that's why it didn't click when we were first discussing it. But something I found out, yes, it's Billy.

And the mystery apes are apparently very large chimps that have gorilla-like habits of ground nesting. Also, NBC sent a reporter to go capture footage. And I watched this like five minute segment of this reporter flying in camping, rolling up his pants, waiting through a small stream, and then leaving with nothing. No footage. They didn't see any of these mystery apes. So, chimping ain't easy.

But Bondo Mystery Aping even harder. Okay. Mike wants to know, why are apes still around if humans evolved from them? And this is a question that he feels like people who don't believe in evolution ask. Okay, apes did not evolve into humans. Humans do not evolve from apes. There was a common ancestor.

20 million years ago, the smaller primates shot off. Okay, so goodbye, monkeys, off they go. 15 million years, then you have this other creature. 15 million years ago, the orangutans split off. Goodbye, orangutans. Next, around 8 million years ago, goodbye, gorillas. Off they go. 5 to 6 million years ago, off go the chimps.

What was left became humans. Got it. Perfect. Okay, thank you. Apparently, that question is asked by... Super common. Why aren't there little hybrids around? Although a study was just done, or they just found out, that in Kenya, there does seem to be about a million-year window

where humans, or a form, an early form of a human, was around at the same time as a chimpanzee. Really? I didn't think so before. I understand. There's not a lot of chimpanzee fossils out there because of the nature of their rainforest habitat. They don't really fossilize real well.

That's a good point. And the New World Monkeys, did they just split off? Yeah, that's like the 20 million off they went. Okay. All right, so I looked this up because I thought maybe this was Pangea related, but it turns out that Pangea, that big land mass that was a cluster of all of our continents,

actually drifted apart 200 million years ago. So I was off by a lot of millions of years. So how did these New World Monkeys come over from the old world? Well, they think either by a land bridge or by a big floating raft of vegetation that came over, which I can't not think of a bunch of monkeys on a big mat of palm fronds just kick back, cruising across the ocean, loving it.

And I have a feeling that it was much more accidental and it sucked way more than that. I'm sorry, monkeys. Christian wants to know, he's heard that sign language is total BS. Do you have opinions on that? In general, they're pertaining to me too. Just in general.

Because I would say I'm pro sign language. Right. Sign language is a bunch of horse crap. No, but Coco, she really signing? Coco, by the way, a Western lowland gorilla. She was born in 1971, the San Francisco Zoo. She was taught sign language by her keeper at a very early age.

And her life has been a subject of a lot of controversy and plenty of documentaries. Okay, that is a big topic. Okay. I would say yes, because she can't, as far as I'm aware, and again, not a Coco expert, but as far as I'm aware, she can form her own words and she starts conversations, which is a big difference.

Then if I just say, do you want milk and you say milk? And I say, look, you can speak. Like that's not a conversation. So as far as I know, yes. However, not many places teach their ape sign language. For our institution, for example, we want our chimpanzees to act as ambassadors of their wild counterparts.

We want people to come to a zoo and be able to see what a wild chimpanzee should behave like. That's why we have a large exhibit with a large generation and many cool individuals that are acting the way wild chimpanzees should. Sign language is not a part of that. So it's just a different philosophy. Okay, good to know.

But yes, in some cases, it would be my thing. Yes, she's actually signing. I do love that story where she blamed ripping a sink out of the wall on a kitten. Did you hear that? That's like my favorite story. Yeah, that's like a whole other branch of what I do. And it's very interesting, but that's very research

and finding out their capabilities. That's not studying the natural behavior of the species. And so I call my chimps chimp chimps because all of our chimp chimps were raised by chimps and have always lived with chimps. You can take a chimp, remove it from its mom within a couple of days, raise it as an entertainment chimp,

put it in a show, put it on TV. That's not a chimp chimp. That chimp does not know how to be a chimpanzee. It looks like a chimpanzee, but it doesn't act like one. And so when they get too big to handle it around age eight or nine and they realize they're far too dangerous to handle anymore, an entertainment company has to decide what to do with it, well, a lot of times they end up living alone,

which is torture for such a social animal. So luckily we have a lot of sanctuaries opening up now that can take chimpanzees with a lot of... They're basically our special needs and issues and kind of rehab them and get them in with other chimpanzees because they have a lot of time. And sanctuaries are wonderful places for animals that don't have any other options,

but they're full of chimps that were denied the ability to be who they were supposed to be. So do they turn into diaper pariahs? Like semi-hybrid humans? Yes. Oh, it's bad. Yeah. Yeah, because they are a totally different culture. Like they're not chimps chimps.

They're just not. And like, so you can have a zoo and you can have, like let's say there's a lab chimp that doesn't have a home, you can't just put it into a group of chimps chimps. Oh, hell no. They don't speak the same language. The chimps chimps would be like, I don't know what you are,

but you are not acting appropriately, so we're just going to kill you. But that doesn't work. You can probably find that lab chimp a home with some other lab chimps that also might be kind of similar in some ways. But yeah, like introducing an entertainment chimp in like suspenders and pants.

And he's like, where is craft service? Like that's not going to fly. No, it is not. So. Well, Carlos wants to know, can a chimp raised in captivity use a toilet? I believe some have. Really?

Again, that's not natural behavior. Right, right. You could. I mean, they're pretty food motivated. I imagine you could. Okay. Chimpanzees are not naturally latrine animals, so they tend to just kind of go wherever.

Takes me four hours to clean them. That's interesting that they're not just like, that's potty corner over there. I would love it. Right? Now, if we can't clean an area for several days for like, we just have some that won't leave for whatever reason,

like they recognize it gets gross and like won't sit in certain areas and be like, ew, like, you know, it's, they recognize it gets gross, but, you know, they don't have to clean it. I do. John wants to know, this is John Purcell, friend of yours, friend of mine.

He asks, why are chimps so mean and bonobos so loving? Is that, is that an appropriate question? No, John. It is not because chimpanzees, yes, can be violent and aggressive. They could also be extraordinarily loving. Bonobos are extraordinarily loving and can also be really nasty and aggressive.

Chimpanzees overall are a little bit more so. And just how they evolved. They do have different societies as well. The bonobos are matriarchal societies. They have an alpha female. So the ladies run the roost there. And in chimpanzee society, it's patriarchal. So you have an alpha male running the roost.

Is that, is the matriarchal structure lend itself well to just the unending orgies that bonobos are known for? I would say yes. Really? Because again, they fight just like chimpanzees, just not as frequently, but they certainly do. That seems more like a burning man situation.

Yes. Just everyone, just fluid as fuck, you know? Like what is even happening? Bonobos, I feel like are the people seem to like attribute, or people seem to put some kind of hope on bonobos that like humans can just be that. Just like them. Yeah.

But bonobos are, can they afford to be kind of hypersexual because it's matriarchal? Probably. Okay. Good to know. Lorenzo wants to know, why do I still have back hair, but tall square jot guys don't? Lexi.

Okay. Reggie wants to know, what's the smallest primate that can learn a language of sorts? Would you argue that primates have a language because they communicate with friends? Oh, absolutely. Yeah, I'm not sure what kind of language she's talking about, but even, so there's great apes

that everyone's heard of, the gorillas, orangutans, bonobos, and chimpanzees. There's also lesser apes called gibbons. And so they have found, and they are more from like Indonesia and the Far East, if you will. And they found that there can be all these different species of gibbons, but when analyzing their vocalizations, there will be regional accents across species lines.

Stop it. You serious? So some of them sound like Canadian? 00:55:57,840 --> 00:56:01,120 Yeah, now that is a whole other branch of science that I don't know about syntax and vocalizations, but I read that study and it was super impressive. Oh my God, regional dialects, that's blowing my mind.

I mean, yeah, chimpanzees even have specific calls for snakes. So the whole community knows that there's a snake get away because their snakes are kind of dangerous. Do they, is it a shrill, like a small girl screaming? No, it's like a bark. I've only heard it once, but I mean, it was like, I think that's the snake bark. And it totally was.

It was like a tiny garter snake because they don't know. But if we hear them make that call, we pull them off exhibit and find the snake because it could be, it could be a rattlesnake in Southern California. That's interesting that the snake fears are so ingrained. Ooh, do you want to know their fun story? Yeah. Another cocktail effect.

There was a study done in wild chimpanzees where they had, there was a path that the chimpanzees walked along really frequently and it was really narrow. So it had to be single file and they put a fake snake, like a fake dangerous snake in like right off the path. And this chimps that had friends following them would bark to tell them the snake was there. The chimps that had chimps they weren't so close with

wouldn't tell them. What? Sneaky. That's some sabotage right there. They're sneaky. We had a female who loves to start trouble. She just finds it fun as far as we can tell. She just gets a kick out of it

and she was really, really pregnant so she couldn't do it anymore. And so she'd sit and she'd wait for the lowest ranking female to walk by and she'd shove her into one of the males and try to start a fight that way. And the female would just run away like, I didn't do it, I didn't do it, I did not, I did not.

And then the pregnant one would just sit there and just stare. Drama. The girls, you know. I mean, do you sometimes just sit and watch? Oh yeah, all the time. They're fascinating. And they have put cameras up to see what happens in the middle of the night.

We thought they went to sleep at like 5.30 and kind of woke up around six, but they don't. They are up all night and Ben always gets up around four in the morning and runs around thumping his big old feet around and waking everyone up and they all start yelling at him. Oh my God. He's not restful.

So no wonder you see them sleeping during the day. This is the best, this is the best reality show ever. I know, and now I want to meet Ben. I want to be like, oh my gosh, is that him? Well, you're stalking me anyway. I see you might as well. Yeah, I know. I'm like popping by the zoo.

It's me. Hey. Kathy wants to know if you have thoughts on primates having a bona fide culture a la friend to wall. And I don't know who friend to wall is. Friends to wall. 00:58:22,160 --> 00:58:24,240 He's a very big primate researcher.

Thank you. They absolutely have cultures. Even within if you're comparing like different wild chimpanzees in different countries or different communities will hunt differently or behave slightly differently. Zoo groups will have their own cultures as well, just things they've learned within this zoo. And so it's kind of interesting.

Like if you, you don't move chimpanzees a ton, but if you do, one will move and like teach things to a new community, which is kind of cool. So they definitely have their own ways to do things. I mean, there's certain cultures in the wild that will make spears to stab bush babies in trees. But like not every chimp can do that. That's something that was learned within that one community

because they live with these small prosimians called bush babies. I was going to say, what's the hell's a bush baby? It's like a mouse monkey with really big eyes. It's like something a five year old would draw. But they're super cool and they live in trees and they come out at night, I think. Do they want to eat them?

Yes, they do. Raw? Yeah, I know, I don't know. Maybe they dry them out in the sun or something. Oh no, they just rip them to pieces. Okay, when I first heard the term bush babies, I couldn't not think of a family portrait of George W. Bush and his grandchildren, which was upsetting.

I looked it up. These things honestly do look like living cartoons. They're also called galagos or nagapies, which means little night monkey. And they're related to lemurs and lorises. So they have those huge like hubcap eyes. And if you're having a bad day, Google image search them immediately.

They do not look real. In fact, in the Google images, I came across a picture of a stuffed animal. And that stuffed animal by comparison sucked. It like wasn't even half as cute as a real bush baby galago nagapie. Oh, they're so cute. I don't want to think about them being in peril.

Okay, back to tool use. I mean, there's some chimp communities that will use tools to do termite fishing and others that use different tools for ant fishing and different communities that will use like anvils and small hand rocks to break nuts and things. So they all do it slightly differently, which means it's learned within that community

and it's passed again, their peer learners from generation to generation. So they'll be like, this is how you make a spear to kill a bush baby. Yes. And eat bush babies. Yeah, yeah. And I mean, there's a lot of studies going on right now

where they will watch these like cool resource sites like a termite mound or an ant mound or whatever, and then watch them like make the tools and then leave the tools and then so they can use them like the next week. So like they have foresight to be like next week when I come back, when the ants have been replenished, my tools are still here.

And that the mom will sometimes, and it's usually the mom's teaching, teaching little ones, they'll make an extra tool for them or just hand in their tool when they're done. So there's a lot of like direct learning. Well, I mean, I got to watch one of our moms like directly teaching her kid to walk,

which was super cool. Because she'd put her down and she'd cry and then she'd move four feet away and then back into her and be like, come on, you can do it. You can do it. I watched it for like an hour. It was amazing. Did you get emotional?

I did. Did you cry? A little bit. A little bit. A little bit. Oh my gosh. It's beautiful. Did everyone like whip out their cameras?

Like it's babies first steps. Zookeepers photos are hilarious. I mean, it's like 2000 pictures of our animals. We love them. I mean, they're our passion. So, okay, topical warning. There will be some discussion about poop right now. This question got asked multiple times.

Once by Ivan, why do monkeys fling their poo when they're agitated? Okay. Well, one, not all monkeys do that. Okay. Okay. So that is also a learned behavior. All right.

So there are some communities that they all fling their poo and some that they do not. They do not have the, I don't know what the word is, deterrence of fecal matter that we do. Like that is something that humans are like, ooh, that's disgusting, gross.

chimpanzees don't and other primates don't have that. It's something that comes out and hey, that's interesting and it's there. And it gets a little bit grosser right now for about 10, 20 seconds. Maybe if I ate something really yummy yesterday and it's in there, maybe I kind of want to eat it again to see it, to like taste it again.

So they don't think of it as gross barf. It just, it is gross to us. And as a keeper, I'm like, no, don't do it, but it's what you do. But yeah, it's really gross. And it's something to throw. I mean, our chimpanzees don't,

we don't really have an issue in our zoo with it, but they'll throw rocks that they find, they throw pine cones, they throw, if we give them coconut shells, they'll throw coconut shells and they do it when they're upset because it's, they need to, again, they show when they are upset.

And if they can't reach somebody else, they will throw something to make sure that they know. So we have like one male who loves to throw objects at one particular female. So he waits for her to walk below him and he'll nail her in the back with something. Does he like her or hate her? Does not love her very much.

Okay. But they're on different sides. So even though we have one community, we have two kind of dueling groups, whereas like the alpha male will come from each group and it's been going back and forth for years. So she has aligned herself with the other political party than the one that's currently in power.

And he knows that. So he just likes to get a riser and she screams a lot. So if you make her scream, then it also makes you look super scary that you cause such a reaction. That is so conniving. This is such a soap opera. It's Game of Thrones.

This is amazing. I mean, does it, it must, it just must make you reflect on personality so much. Why certain people have certain personalities? Like just how? Yeah. And ours are every chimpanzee, every primate is going to be incredibly different.

You just have to watch long enough and you will see them come out and they are not hidden. They don't hide anything. What's your least favorite thing about your job? Or the worst day on the job you've ever had? That would be a tie between, we do have some medical things that pop up that are heartbreaking because they are our loves.

They are our passions and they're going to have medical issues just like we would. And it's difficult because they can't talk to us. So it's trying to figure out what has happened, what's going on, what's the best thing to do in this case. So medical stuff is tough, especially end of life stuff in a zoo

because a lot of keepers have worked with their animals for 10 plus years and our job is to care for them until their end and that's the same thing as owning a pet and making those difficult decisions. But most people have one or two dogs and a couple of cats. When you have 40 animals in your care, that comes up more often and that's really hard.

So that stuff kind of sucks, but it's part of the job and you have to be super objective about it as well. And that's also hard when you have patrons not understanding, well, that animal looks really bad. And you're like, well, that animal has lived five years past his end of life,

but he's still eating and he's happy and we're doing our best we can. When do they look ratchet? Do they have an eye missing or something? Or when would a patron say that chimp looks terrible? I mean, some of the chimp wounds look pretty bad. We're not going to lie. They really do injure each other,

but they heal at a rate, I mean, incredible. There again, they're not people. So people will see a wound on a chimpanzee think, oh my God, what if my kid had that wound? Why are they not in a hospital in a sedated coma? And it's like, they will heal from that like without ever needing stitches. Like you got to just trust what we're doing.

And so that's where it kind of, there's a disconnect between like people assuming that the zookeepers don't care and are just letting animals be. And it's like, you know what? You don't know that the animal that looks bad over there is currently undergoing chemo because we're doing everything we can

to make sure that he's comfortable. Or this one's technically in hospice care right now. So yes, we know she's limping, but like we assure you she's getting vet checks every single day and we're monitoring things closely. We like the people who will then say something and want to talk about it. Because once we explain it, they typically understand.

It's just a lack of knowledge. So as I was like, just come, hang out, talk to staff. We always have education and people in docents out front, like talk to them, learn. I mean, that's a big reason why people go to zoos. Did you, were you surprised that Harambe became such a weird internet meme? If you touched anything that had the internet,

you might have been familiar with the Harambe meme. This is after a silverback gorilla was shot and killed at the Cincinnati Zoo after a toddler fell into his enclosure. This sparked a lot of debate and outrage and then a bunch of really weird Twitter memes and internet memes. If you want to go down that hole, go to knowyourmeme.com,

which does an excellent job of explaining the inside jokes on the internet that you don't get. But back to the actual incident, how did Kate feel about having to see a primate killed to protect a human? That's just tragic and sad all around. So my short answer is, look, I see it as a zookeeper. I've seen it as someone who has worked with silverback gorillas

and as someone who has at that age was a three-year-old toddler, it's a tragic accident because I could see every single side, including the ones who like zoos and the ones who don't. It's just a tragic accident. It happened. It's horrible. And in my opinion, the zoo did 100% the right thing. There's nothing else you can do. You can't go to a zoo knowing that the zoo takes human life

as anything other than the top priority. You can't do that. And it's something that they had to do. And I appreciate that people were concerned about like the tranquilizer dart, which again, is just in TV. You shoot, usually it's like a character, like on friends, I shoot you in the butt and then you fall down. It doesn't work like that.

I have been there when a silverback gorilla was tranquilized and it made him worse. Oh, no. It made him enraged. And it took another half hour for him to go down. You cannot do that with a toddler. And even if he was trying to protect, which in the beginning, honestly, he just looked confused.

He looked scared. His lips were pursed, were kind of puffed out a little bit, which means like they're not sure, but they're very, very upset. He could have killed that kid just by accident. They had to do that. And it was super tragic. And I kept thinking about the keepers behind the door who knew that if they didn't get hit and he was dead,

they knew that and they did everything they could and they couldn't do it. And so that's just horrible. It's just tragic. How much of your job is spent on like safety guidelines? Most. A lot of it, right? Patron safety is number one.

Like when we talk about like, okay, what if we have an animal escape? The first thing is patron safety. Like what can we do to assure that no patient could hurt? Second is animal safety. And our safety is in there too. But we know what to do. But like that's not my top concern.

It's like, well, I'm going to lock myself in the building and just pretend this goes away. No, that is not what we are trained to do. So it's patron safety first. Do you have a favorite day on the job? Is there a day that like it sparkles when you think about it as cheesy as that is and I'm not going to take it back?

Like a unicorn day? Yeah. Is that what you mean? Can we really lay it on there? A unicorn sprinkly day? Oh gosh. I will regret asking this question. The answer will forever haunt me.

You know, birthdays are kind of awesome. You're like, what's the problem? Allie, why do you have a problem with birthdays? I really, really 100% thought that she meant like a birthday party and I immediately pictured a chimp in a hat tooting a party horn with maybe a partially demolished Costco sheet cake nearby. That's not the kind of birthdays she meant. She meant birth space days.

Especially when we've been, you know, you know, chimpanzees have an eight month gestation period and we monitor their pregnancies with ultrasound. So like we're kind of with them and we're doing the E.P.T.s in the beginning and are doing our little dances when we learn that they're pregnant. They take a regular P.T.S. They do, like they do everything we do.

It's weird. It's super exciting. We can get the positive. Oh my God. So the birthdays are fun. Sometimes it's at night, but there have been a couple during the day when like they're in labor all day

and you're there for the birth and that's really exciting. It's kind of gross too, actually. Because so unlike us. Listen, this is about to get, it's not going to get gross. It's about to get fucking revolting for about 45 seconds. So if you capital C can't capital D deal,

which trust me, I understand, hit the fast forward button. 45 seconds, fast forward. I'm not judging you, but if you're down for a very brief trip down the Willy Wonka tunnel that is the miracle of life, curd your loins, dive head first

into these great ape birth factoids. They will, so the, as soon as like the baby pops out and the placenta pops out, the close females will just eat the placenta. Oh boy. So like the mom will go pick up the baby and the other females just like

will after the rest of that stuff up, which is great. They're clean for me. That's the one time they clean for me. I know it's pretty gross. Why do they do that? I don't know. So like is it,

well, we think it came out. We think they already ate it. It's probably very nutritious. You know, it's very big now to do pills and things. I know that, but like they just eat it raw. That's going to take me a while to stop thinking about. Yeah.

But it's still warm and everything. It might even be quivering. Oh, it might even be quivering. Oh, it might even be quivering. If you were listening closely, you can hear that even her dog was shuddering in the background. I want my birthdays are great.

I mean, they're, because all of ours are planned and we've been excited and expecting them. And as long as everything goes well, it's really exciting. And I was really nerve wracking until you hear the baby nurse and as soon as you hear the baby,

I would say probably baby nursing is the greatest. Good, the greatest days. And we're good. Cool. Mom and baby are good. We're not going to have to intervene here. We don't want to have to do that. You don't want to have to press pump a gym for several months.

No, I don't. I'll do it. It's my job. Right. It's not my normal part of my job. Prefer not to. But we will go to any extreme length we have to to keep our animals healthy and happy.

I mean, that's, that's our job. So we'll do it, but it's not always pleasant. And so where can people find you? You're, you're at the LA Zoo. Does anyone sees a cool, a cool-looking chick? Like super pretty. Super pretty girl. Just like wind in her hair.

Always. I always look fresh as a daisy. The marks on my outfit are not poo, but all they're totally just like dirt. So yeah, I'm usually at the chimpanzees of Mahali Mountain. And if a zookeeper is not around or accessible, our education staff is excellent and they are spread out all over the zoo.

And most of them have knowledge about the animals all over the zoo. So like seek someone out if you have a question or a comment or a concern. Like really, most of the time we have a very logical answer for things. And if we don't, we can always get the information to you. For sure.

So as always, find smart people, ask them questions. Yes. We're normally pretty nice. And as a footnote, if you are curious about how you could make an impact or how you can contribute to great ape conservation, a couple of ways. Number one, don't use companies

that use great apes in their products or advertising or animal shows. Don't pay to take a selfie with a chimpanzee. Don't purchase a birthday card that involves a chimpanzee wearing sunglasses on it. You can also learn about the situations that chimpanzees are facing in the wild by going to your local zoo

or you can like the Facebook pages for the Jane Goodall Institute or the World Wildlife Fund. Another thing you can do that I never even thought of, but check for palm kernel oil in the ingredients of the things you eat or things you use. It's in a ton of Halloween candy, for example.

And by buying things that have palm kernel oil, you are helping to contribute to the deforestation of habitats for orangutans. So check that out. Thank you guys so much for listening. If you want to keep up to date or tell friends about this, you can use the handles on Twitter,

oligiespod and Instagram, oligies. I'm also on there as Ali Ward. Also, if you feel like purchasing any oligies merch, that now exists, which is a crazy, weird dream come true that anyone would want to buy a shirt about this. We now have a page oligiesmerch.com. And thank you, huge thank you to Shannon Feltis,

who is Urban Farm Foods PDX on Facebook. She's an awesome chef in Portland. And her sister, Bonnie Dutch, B-O-N-I Dutch, who is an artist. She has a Nancy Page. Do look her up, both of them, who are helping me with merch. They're being amazing.

I can't even deal with it. So anyway, those are the footnotes. Please stay tuned. Next episode, paleontology. In fact, one of our specimens may be the largest dinosaur from North America. That's huge, literally. Yeah.

Nephrology, nephrology, seriology, terminology.