Ologies with Alie Ward - Smologies #22: REPTILES & AMPHIBIANS with David Steen

Episode Date: May 2, 2023

This shorter, kid-safe edit of the classic Herpetology episode features frilly gills, frog tornadoes, legless lizards, and reasons to appreciate snakes. Also, why you shouldn’t kiss one. Dr. David Steen is a beloved herpetologist and wildlife conservationist and his answers are full of facts and flim-flam busters. Dr. David Steen’s website, Twitter & InstagramFull-length (*not* G-rated) Herpetology episode + tons of science linksMore kid-friendly Smologies episodes! Including Toads and Body Heat!A donation went to: The Alongside Wildlife FoundationBecome a patron of Ologies for as little as a buck a monthOlogiesMerch.com has hats, shirts, masks, totes!Follow @Ologies on Twitter and InstagramFollow @AlieWard on Twitter and InstagramSound editing by Steven Ray Morris, Mercedes Maitland of Maitland Audio, and Jarrett Sleeper of MindJam MediaMade possible by work from Noel Dilworth, Susan Hale, Kelly R. Dwyer, Emily White, & Erin TalbertSmologies theme song by Harold Malcolm

Hey, oligites. Hi, Allie Ward in your space. Hi, it's me. So, Herps. Let's talk about it. Herpetology. What is it? Okay, it's the study of amphibians, like newts and salamanders and all froggies and toads and reptiles, like tortoises and turtles and crocodiles. Also snakes, what? Huh? Don't worry about them. Don't worry about it. Okay, listen, if you're afraid of the s-word, we will address that. We will soothe your fears, for real. But herpetology, generally, it's a lot of different animals. And technically, it's the study of poikilothermic ectothermic tetrapods. What are those words? Are they words? Yes, okay.

I had to look it up, but I'm going to break it down. Poikilothermic means an animal whose internal temperature varies considerably. Ectothermic is when the regulation of your hot bod depends on external sources, like sunlight or a heated rock surface. Now, a tetrapod means four-legged, although I think of a toad and tell me, tell me those front two aren't arms. Like, toads have hands, right? Just a side note, we have since done a whole Smology's episode on toads called bufology, as well as one about body heat called thermophysiology. And those are both kid's safe and linked in the show notes. Also, if this is your first ever allergies episode, Smology's are

shorter kid-friendly versions of full-length episodes. So if you are not in need of a G-rated version, the full-length version is linked below. Okay, so herpetology. Now, herpetology comes from the Greek, herpane. Same word, to creep. But once you understand the splendor of green and scaly critters, you'll be like, oh man, I too want a reptile condo in my home. Okay, on to the ologist. So I was a fan of this doctor on the website Twitter.com for a while. I always respected his really swift, kind of somewhat gruff identifications of snakes from these like blurry, probably mid-running away photos that people would send him. And I thought one day, I want to hang out with this person. I want to ask about his love of snacks and herps. It's one of my favorite

interviews ever. I love it. We address turtles, snake IDs, the fear of snakes, frog storms. It's great. So get ready to let herps into your heart with polyologist and herpetologist Dr. David Skeet. What kind ofologist do you identify with? Like a necologist, a wildlife biologist, herpetologist. What do you call yourself? It depends on who I'm talking to. In general, I like to think of myself as a wildlife ecologist and conservation biologist. So I study how wildlife interact with other species and their surroundings. But most of the work that I do relates to amphibians and reptiles. And that's where the herpetology comes in. So are you a herpetologist? Yeah, we can go with that. Okay. Yeah, I study amphibians and reptiles. So yeah, I think it would be

accurate to call me a herpetologist. I became aware of you on Twitter because you're like fire when it comes to snake IDs. Like someone will send you the Sasquatch equivalent of like, it looks like a rope from half a football field away and you're like, oh, that's a copperheaded. Like how do you know? How did you get so good at that? Well, I like to think that it's kind of like how you recognize friends and family. You're not necessarily, it's true though, you're not necessarily looking at the length of someone's mustache or the color of their eyebrows. You're just, you just recognize them. And I think that is how I see the snakes. So you don't necessarily have to, well, I don't necessarily have to look at for those really specific features. It's just an overall

feel. If someone's like, who's this? And you're like, that's Angie on it. It's just boom. That's exactly right. Well, why are people so freaked out by snakes, reptiles, amphibians? I personally, I'm down with them. I'm totally fine with them. But why are some people freaked out with them? Like, have you found? Yeah, we don't have the answer for that. But it's definitely the case. Believe it or not, you're not the first person to tell me that you know somebody that's scared of snakes. Yeah, shocking. It is really common. And there are some folks that point to research that say babies have this innate ability to recognize snakes. And that suggests that we have this, we're born with this fear. And I'm not entirely convinced of those arguments. I think

that we may have this innate ability to recognize snakes and react to them. But society helps push that initial reaction into fear. Ask anybody that does educational shows with snakes. And you could see the kids running up. They want to touch it. They want to feel it. They want to ask questions about it. And in the back of the room, their parents are really scared. And then eventually, the kids see the parents and they get scared too. So I think it's largely society that influences something biological in us. Maybe it's biblical lore. Maybe it's just like, oh, yeah, I've heard of these guys, they're troublemakers, man. For you know what, I'm going to have to put on under pants. It's just going to be a downward spiral. Do you have a favorite animal? There's something

about Eastern Diamondback rattlesnakes, which are just really impressive. They're just, they're the largest rattlesnake in the world. They're only found in the Southeast United States. And they just have this quiet power and dignity about them. So it's so dignity. Are there any just snakes or just clowns? So I guess I would think of the Hognos snake. And it has all these strategies for not getting eaten, basically. It's going to play dead. It's going to puke up its last meal. And you, if you try to catch it. I'm not hungry anymore. These are all great strategies for not getting eaten, but they do kind of make them seem a little silly. So Hognos snake down a clown.

Good to know. That's right. So do you always want to do this? Or at what point did you decide I'm going to be a scientist who studies wildlife? Or did it kind of evolve where all of a sudden you were like, oh, whoa, I looked up and here I am. I guess I'm doing this. I've always been interested in creatures. And if you had asked me in second grade, what I wanted to be when I grew up, I'd say a naturalist. Didn't really know what that meant, but I liked nature. And so naturalists sounded good. Do you have any favorite movies or television shows or least favorite ones about reptiles and amphibians? Where you're like, they got it wrong. Or you're like, you know what? You nailed it. So this was an early interview when I would ask questions and then before the

guests would have the chance to answer, I would ask another question. I'm sorry. What about the scene where it rains frogs in Magnolia? Were you like, that would never happen? So it has happened. Oh, it did happen? That has happened before. What? Yeah. Tell me everything. Many frogs are breeding in these shallow, temporary wetlands. And if a big storm comes through, it could suck up that moisture and frogs in the process. What? Sure. I mean, you can imagine a tornado doing it. So maybe it'll be a step down from that. So it's like a sharknado, but a rainstorm of frogs. It's exactly like a frognado. First off, frog storms are indeed a thing as our fish storms, spider storms, tohode storms, and worm storms. They think maybe a tornado-like water spout

sucks them up and carries them and then rains them back down. Now, according to the Wikipedia page entry entitled Rain of Animals, quote, several witnesses of raining frogs describe the animals as startled but healthy and exhibiting relatively normal behavior shortly after the event. These are kind of the things of legend, but there are reliable accounts of them. So we have a lightning round of listener questions, but before we get to them, we're going to toss a donation to a great organization, the Alongside Wildlife Foundation, which through grassroots fundraising pursues science-based solutions for living alongside wildlife in perpetuity via their research and outreach and land acquisition. So it was also

founded by a guy named Dr. David Steen, who is our guest. So a donation will go to Alongside WildlifeFoundation.org thanks to sponsors of the show. Okay, your questions. Alex and Troni wants to know, are snakes just getting a bad rap, i.e. the Garden of Eden, or are they really a bunch of sneaky troublemakers? So snakes are really hard to find. They're always hiding, but I don't really think of them as sneaky. I think of them as scared. I mean, they do not want to be found. So that's how I'd probably put a spin on that. Oh, so they're just defensive. Exactly. Leave me alone. Yeah, they don't want to sneak up on you. They do not want to be seen by you.

Okay, snakes, not sneaky. Cool. You heard it here first. Late Night Pi wants to know, what allows amphibians to live in a hybrid environment of water slash land? Do they breathe air or water? And also, if you had to kiss a frog, what kind would you pick? Yeah, that covers a lot of territory there. It really does. So amphibians are a really diverse group, but the classic example is the frog that lives on land. It goes in water, lays its eggs, then it's a tadpole, then it turns into a frog, and that's the classic amphibian life cycle. But there's a lot of exceptions. There's a lot of

salamanders that never leave the water. Some frogs lay their eggs on leaves and they drop into the water. So lots of different strategies. Many have gills, and that helps them breathe in the water. They also have semipermeable skin, which helps them do some respiration through that, and others have lungs, and some have both over the course of their life. One type of herb is a salamander called an axolotl, which has freely external gills. It lives exclusively in a few lakes in Mexico, and it retains these baby characteristics, like these external gills, which look so much like one of Sharer's fantastic feather fan headdresses from the 80s. So they're one of the unique examples that they never really

grow up. The technical term is pedomorph, and they retain their juvenile characteristics, in this case, and aquatic life style on gills for their whole life. What about if you had to kiss a frog, what kind would you pick? I don't know how to get consent from a frog, so I'm just going to let it go on its way. That's a good answer. Don't kiss. Nicholas Smith wants to know, what was the last snake to have legs? Yeah, that's a pretty cool question, because the general idea is that they all used to be

lizards, and then a group of animals kind of branched off, lost their legs, and became snakes. So when does one of these animals stop being lizard and start being a snake? That's kind of hard to say, but we do have fossils to look at. Some snakes today still have these little remnants of legs, like the boas and the pythons. Yeah, they have these little vestigial limbs on the back. They got nubbins? They got nubbin legs, yep. What? Can you tickle their little nubbins?

You could, yeah, as a matter of fact. There's lizards that don't have legs, and there's those snakes that have the little nubbin, so nature's really messy. I did not know that. That's pretty exciting. I'm excited. Right, that's pretty dope. I had no idea. John Worcester wants to know, what is the coldest climate that a snake is able to live in? Yeah, snakes are pretty adaptable, and you can find them pretty far north. There's adders, it's a kind of viper in Europe, there in Scandinavia.

What? Yep, northern Russia, and over here in North America, you can have garter snakes all the way up through Canada, not through Canada, but through much of it. It's all about strategies. The viper in Europe, it's going to be underground for most of the year, and then it warms up for a couple of months, and then it gets really busy, and just that brief window. Garter snakes, they also have a relatively small window, but they need to find these really unique areas to spend the winter.

That's why you're going to see them congregating in some areas like the snake pits and narcissists. These are limestone caves, basically, that go below the freezing level. In the fall, they're all congregating. In the spring, they're all emerging. Tens of thousands of snakes, pretty cool. Bonnie wants to know, can all different snake breeds be friends? She said, we used to play in a sunny hill covered in snakes as kids. What? There would be all colors and sizes, all chilling together in the sun. She said it was like the sun was their god, and the hill was church.

She asked, was there no fighting in church? Are they just cool all the time? I would have loved to see this scene. It sounds really cool. Snakes are a really diverse group. Some will eat each other. Some will spend the winter together because they're limited by those unique places where they can escape the cold. Some are friends, some are food. I'm using friends, not literally, but they can spend time with each other for sure. I didn't know that. I figured that they'd be like, I'm the snake on this scene. Please remove yourself from my orbit.

So that would be something we associate with a territorial animal, and there's really limited evidence that snakes are territorial. Oh, so they're nicer than we've given them credit for. That's what I keep trying to tell everybody. Emily Georgia wants to know, where does the scary noodles body and the tail begin? Or is it just a tail with eyes? I mean... It's actually just a neck with eyes. Yeah, the tail is not a big portion of the body. It's like the last eighth.

Oh, that's good to know. Jocelyn Furness has a very important question. Can snakes fart? Who asked this question? Jocelyn Furness, but Jenna Erickson also wanted to know the answer. Okay, do you know about this book called Does It Fart? No, I don't. I feel like this person knows about it because it was last year or so, somebody asked me if snakes fart, and people asked that to me, not infrequently.

So I said, Si, yes, they do. And that started a hashtag, Does It Fart? And Nick Caruso and Danny Rabilodi. I'm sorry if I mispronounce your name. Compiled all the answers and wrote a book, Does It Fart? What? Yeah, and they should give me a cut after I just plugged their book. Kate Gilmore, who is our primatologist on episode two, wants to know why do some lay eggs and some give birth to live young? It's such an interesting phenomenon, and it's kind of a quirk of evolution.

But the general idea is that egg laying was probably the ancestral condition. That's what the animal in the beginning had. And then live birth evolved from that. But it hasn't been directly. They've been going back and forth. There's different kinds of egg laying and live birth. So evolution. Okay, yeah. What are the advantages of live birth? The eggs are really good because you've got this really climate-controlled little spot. But the live birth, they're ready to go. They're not as vulnerable to predation.

So that would probably be a big benefit. They can outrun whatever. Yeah, they can start biting stuff. They're ready to go. They hit the ground biting. Good for them. Yeah, and in stable climates, it might be an advantage because you don't necessarily need that enclosed space on an egg. Daniel Laveneris. I'm sorry, Daniel. I'm probably pronouncing that wrong. Who is awesome? He asks, from flattened out ribs to glide to tail scales that look like a spider,

to lure birds and worm-like appearances to feed on ant larvae, snakes are awesome. But which is the most awesome adaptation you've seen? The most awesome adaptation is just the fact. Look, imagine you had to survive in the woods with no arms and no legs. How long would you last? Oh, yeah, no, I'd be toast. Yeah, but all these different kinds of snakes have figured out a way to make it work. And so I think that's my answer.

Just the fact that they are. Yeah, and it worked for them. They lost their limbs probably because it's easier to move underground. But somehow they've figured out all these amazing ways to get by, whether it's constricting their prey or this modified saliva that's basically venom, or things like indigo snakes, which are just grabbing other snakes and chewing their head. I mean, you do what you got to do. Last question. What is the best thing about your job?

What just gives you butterflies, keeps you going? You're like, I'm so lucky. I can't believe they pay me for this. I'm really lucky to work with a great group of people that are really passionate about these animals, passionate about increasing our knowledge of them and making the planet a better place for them and us. And that's a great place to be. So you're colleagues? My colleagues. Really? So other people are the best thing about your job?

That's surprising. You don't normally hear people say that. Yeah, well, it's true. It's true. It really makes things better when you're surrounded by people that are all working towards a common goal and are bright and motivated and that's why they're there. If someone wanted to be a herpetologist or a wildlife ecologist, what would you tell them to do? What would you wish you could be like, hey, yo, little me, do this? Get experience anyway you can. Figure out if it's for you. Surround yourself with people that share those kinds of goals and figure out if it's for you

and a path will emerge. Thank you so much for being on. I'm honored to be here. I was really excited when I got the invitation. So ask smart people goofy questions because goofy ones are actually good ones. And to find out more about Dr. David Steen or his nonprofit alongside Wildlife Foundation, you can see the links in the show notes. Also linked is alleywar.com slash Smologies, which has dozens more kids safe and shorter episodes you can blaze through.

Thank you, Zeke Rodriguez-Thomas and Mercedes Maitland of Maitland Audio and Jared Sleeper for editing those. And since we like to keep things small around here, the rest of the credits are in the show notes. But before I go, I'd like to give one small piece of advice. And this week, it's that before you get a pet, make sure you ask a lot of questions about how much care they take, what will make them happy, how much help you'll need, and how long they live. And make sure that you're up for the commitment. And if you're not up for it, that's okay because stuffed animals are a good option too.

Okay, bye-bye.