Ologies with Alie Ward - Smologies #23: MAMMALS with Danielle N. Lee

Episode Date: June 13, 2023

Here we are with the smol (shorter, cleaner, kid-friendly) version of another Ologies classic, in this case: Mammals. You’re one. Your dog is one. So are giant rats. What do we have in common? I promise you’ll find out the answer from the incredible Southern Illinois University professor, researcher, science communicator and mammalogist Dr. Danielle N. Lee as she joins us to chat about everything from nature’s parenting styles, mysteries of the platypus, how the dinosaurs affected mammal evolution, the origin of the word mom, and how we’re all in this together.Follow Dr. Danielle N. Lee on Twitter and InstagramA donation went to Science Engineering Mathematics LinkFollow SEM Link on TwitterFull-length (*not* G-rated) Mammology episode + tons of science linksMore kid-friendly Smologies episodes!Become a patron of Ologies for as little as a buck a monthOlogiesMerch.com has hats, shirts, masks, totes!Follow @Ologies on Twitter and InstagramFollow @AlieWard on Twitter and InstagramSound editing by Steven Ray Morris, Mercedes Maitland of Maitland Audio, and Jarrett Sleeper of MindJam MediaMade possible by work from Noel Dilworth, Susan Hale, Kelly R. Dwyer, Emily White, & Erin TalbertSmologies theme song by Harold Malcolm

Oh, hi, welcome to Smaller Gs. What are Smaller Gs? Okay, so these are shorter kid-friendly versions of classic episodes. So we took them and we took all the swears out. Nothing too racy. You can listen around kids. You can listen around your grandparents,

perhaps work colleagues, whatever. If you want the full length version of this episode, though, of course it's gonna be linked in the show notes. We also have more Smaller Gs up at alliword.com. Slash Smaller Gs. Okay, enjoy. Oh, hey, it's that mark that you get on your chin when you're wearing lipstick, and then you take a bite of a giant sandwich. Alliword, back with informative chuckles that I just can't wait to get to,

Mimology. So thisologist is a big deal. A TED Talker, multiple times, a Nat Geo Explorer, a long time science writer and an advocate and a researcher, a professor, a tweeter, an icon, an idol of mine. So we talk about this biologist work on animals of all kinds, especially the furry milky ones, and we chat about fieldwork, platypie, furriness, and parenting styles. And I was so excited to talk to her that I honestly was kind of speechless

and just star struck. And I just wanted to get out of the way and listen because she's just wonderful and insightful and informative. So please get ready to meet one of the world's coolest professors and memologists, Dr. Danielle and Lee. I'm ready to sit. Oh yeah, okay. Of, I want to talk to you about all these warm blooded furry little creatures. First thing I'll have you do if it's okay if you could just say your first and last name, so I make sure I pronounce it right and pronouns. Thank you.

So my name is Danielle Inley and my pronouns are she and her, but I also just don't care. And I'll tell you why. So in the process of doing my research in Tanzania and learning Swahili, there are no gender pronouns in Swahili. Really? They don't exist. They just don't exist, like, because I kept asking.

And I was a realist there because people who speak English would constantly get their pronouns mixed up. They would say he and she interchangeably. And I thought it was always because they don't know English very well. No, it's because those words are the equivalent. He and she are equivalent. And so I he leave because he and she don't exist. So that's not just like, so this is all a construct.

It doesn't matter. That's so beautiful. That's so good to know. Can you tell me a little bit about your research that you did intends in here? Absolutely. I study giant pouch drafts. But those who get the reference, Princess Bride,

I study RLU S's. Rodents of unusual size? I don't think they exist. They are large rodents that look like rats, they're not rats proper. They're rat-like rotons and I'm holding my hands up across my body, but anywhere from nose to tip of tail, they can go anywhere from one and a half to two and a half to three feet long. Oh, what is it like the first time that you saw one? The first time I finally got to see one, I was just like, I can't believe this thing.

It's big. It's the size of a cat, like a nice size house cat. Like they're cat size. They're very strong, they're very fast. They are smart. They have a lot of dexterity in their hand. Like they can grab things Very easily Mm-hmm. They were really good at

Removing their name cards because at first apologize now But I thought it was the animal care cleaning the cages and if I got to put their name tags back Oh, no, and I was like we can't have this we got to keep the name cards on And we come to find out it wasn't it wasn't the staff at all. It was the rats. They were removing their own cards. They were removing their own water bottles. We had to change a lot about protocols and how we care for them. They're that different from regular rats. We had to change the materials we use. We can't use glass bottles because they're so good at flipping them out. They were breaking these super industrial expensive,

pyrite bottles. Oh my God. Every night, they were just breaking them because they flipped them out. And then they would use that little hole to either reach their hand out and undo the cage or for the small ones, they would move their food hutch because it slide in and then they would use that to escape out. Okay. So I asked what happens when they escape and she said it's not like there's mayhem. There are double doors for safety, but it's certainly like a come on guys moment.

Well, they're so smart and they're so dexterous. You are able to research how they can be used to help with finding landmines. Right, so that's actually a nonprofit does this. So they do the training. What they do is really basic, operant conditioning, positive reinforcement. Wait a minute. What are those things she just mentioned, operant conditioning and positive reinforcement? Okay, so operant conditioning is a name for one way that we learn things,

where a creature like you or me or a rat in a lab, maybe your dog does something and that thing is followed by something else that either encourages or discourages the behavior. And if it discourages the behavior, it's called punishment. And if it encourages that behavior, it's called reinforcement. With positive reinforcement, the behavior trying to be taught is reinforced with a reward being added to this situation. So in this case that Danielle and I were talking about, they were teaching rats how to find certain chemical smells

from land mines by giving them a tasty, tasty little treat whenever they succeeded in locating those chemicals. So find the right smell, ding a tasty, tasty, low treat whenever they succeeded in locating those chemicals. So find the right smell, ding, ding, ding, you receive a reward, boom, that is positive reinforcement. You did a thing, good job. Here's another thing.

So then what is negative reinforcement? It's when something bad happens to you, right? Well, a lot of people think so, but no, that is actually just straight up punishment. So negative reinforcement, rather, would be removing something bad from the situation as your reward. Like, let's say that it's raining on you and you're starting to get a little wet and a little cold, but, ah, you remember to bring in a umbrella with you because you're smart and you opened your umbrella and you block the rain that is making you wet and cold and you feel better.

So you didn't add something pleasant, you kind of took away something unpleasant, but still in doing that, you've reinforced a lesson that on days when it might rain, it's a good idea to bring an umbrella. That's negative reinforcement. Now, can you think of any of their behaviors that you've learned through positive reinforcement,

like receiving a reward, or negative reinforcement, which is reducing unpleasantness? I'm sure there's all kinds of things, and people who work with animals typically are like no punishment, just reward for good behavior, which is good when you're trying to motivate yourself to do something. Don't be mean to yourself, just say, hey, good job when you did the right thing. I learned that all the animals that have gone into the program, they're all new- all the animals that have gone into the program, they're all new-sense animals that are caught within the town because they were getting into somebody's house or food stores

or just vexing them in some sort of way. It'd be like if we had a raccoon getting in the garbage and then we're like, you know what? As long as we gotcha, do you want to help us find some landmines? Now, whatever you do, don't push this button. That's exactly how it works. Landmines and help us diagnose tuberculosis, because that's also what they can do. Really?

And that's, are they using, like, old faction for that? All old faction. This is all old faction. That just means smell, but I was trying to sound more professional, because underneath I was very giddy to be having this conversation if you must know. So this is a big deal because between 15 to 20,000 people each year are killed or injured by landmines. And our little rat friends are really great at sniffing out the TNT, plus they're too

light to detonate the landmines and they don't bond with their trainers like dogs do so they can move around to different countries without getting emotionally hurt. Okay, what about mammals? We're mammals, but so are pouched rats and wolves and test-mining deals. Is there more variation among mammals than say reptiles? And so now if we're going to look at the whole thing reptiles and so now if we're gonna look at the whole thing Reptiles big big on brother, then of course they got the spread they win they win. We're more we're more weirder than you It's a very good point if we do it that way but

I mean your mammals aren't interesting. So we have a little bit of everything. So we have the live birthers versus the night live birthers. And among the live birthers, we have the fully developed versus the barely developed. Among those that do the fully developed, stay with mama a long time, or I need you out the door as soon as possible. So this, what I like to call diversity

an investment strategy of the species, like how much do you invest in it off-spring to make sure they're, you know, big and strong before they're out there on their own in a big, wide, mean world. It literally can range from years to moments. Yeah. Years to moments. Why do you think that is? And what influences that? So it's a lot of things to influence that. Some of it is evolutionarily. Like, you know, just part of it is you've got to work with what you got. But it's also ecology. In other words, where you are, the time you are, how much space you have to do your business and make a living, all these inputs determine how you make a living and how well you live. So all these different evolutionary pressures, like if you're dodging predators constantly or if you gorge food and then store it really well or if you have a fast metabolism Those will affect your internal furnace all these different strategies

Determine a lot of stuff so like going back to comparing birds and Mammals so we're both warm-blooded and so another in order for gestation of the rich for your babies to develop really really well And this is across our species, even for reptiles, you got to have that right temperature. You got to, you got to, literally, has to cook when we say it's a few different ways of doing it. So a lot of reptiles they drop their air They put it in the soil. They cover it up. They do a little kiss throw it up to the sky and be like hoping works out Like mama reptiles like I did a little temperature check this ground is about right and I know I'm gonna be gone for forever because I ain't gonna see you again. Yeah. This stays literally kiss up to the sky

and I'm out. So that's like like turtles of birds on the other hand. I like you know what? I still got to get this temperature right, but I still need to be able to move a little bit here and there to go get some more food because carrying carrying on these eggs, they're heavy. They're heavy female animals when they're grabbing or when they're sitting on a nest, they got to be careful because it makes them easy picking for predator. So that's the reason why you know, my maternal holds on to them to those eggs as long as she can. Yeah. Inkybates them and cooks them out the way she's like, I'm too slow.

I'm going to get gobbled up by these sharks or whatever else is out here in the water. I gotta drop these eggs and lighten my load. Mm-hmm. Mama Bird is very similar, but she's like, you know what? I can kind of get up and move a little bit. So what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna make this really nice nest.

I'm gonna insulate it as much as possible. If there's a partner involved, we'll take turns sitting on it and keeping it warm. But like they have to be careful with that, too. If they stay gone too long, that throws the temperature off back to the cooking. Like, oh, let's the recipe up. What happens in mammals is, you know what, I need to be able to move, and I need to be able to keep the temperature going. So what female mammals are able to do is they're able to keep their babies with them at all time. They know that temperature is going to be right. They're going to go where they go.

There's still some trade-offs and loss of movement and dexterity, but compared to other species, like female mammals are able to still get quite a bit done Mm-hmm Even though they're pregnant up until the last day So that's why some have strategies of sitting still in the end But they think about cats they stay hunting. Yeah To near the end we had these trade-offs, but like that temperature control is really important and what we see are these three very dramatic strategies for that temperature control across the three main groups of vertebrates.

Mm-hmm. Drop them off, wish for the best. Yeah. Drop them off, but keep up with them, but if things get re-reabed, I'll bug out, and I'll start all over again. Or, we are all, we in this together. That's, that's the mammal. We are in this together. I got you when you got me. Oh my gosh.

Um, I have so many questions from listeners that know that you're coming on the show. Okay. We're going to let those questions cook a second longer. Well, we take a quick break to hear about sponsors in the show who enable us to make a donation to a cause of theologist choosing. And this week, Dr. Lee shows Semlink, that's Science, Engineering, and Math Link, which is a nonprofit. It was founded in 2005 by T. T. Smith in Atlanta. And Semlink promotes student achievement and career exploration in

math and science, while increasing student exposure to STEM communities. So a donation went to them, Dr. Daniel and Lee's name, thanks to some sponsors of the show who you may hear about now. Okay, your questions. This was the most asked question. What is happening with the platypus, not only London brands, first time question asked her, essentially says like,

why are they so weird? They've got eggs and venom, but they're a mammal. What's happened? All right, so platypus is a mammal's because they meet what I call the base criterion of what makes a mammal a mammal. And that is, they make nourishment from mammary glands. On the evolutionary tree, they're like high up.

So they're really in between. Like they are really good example of that connection to our other vertebrate cousins, like the birds and the reptiles that I mentioned before. It has so many traits that a very bird slash reptilian like, but they have eggs, they lay eggs. They do lay eggs. And so you don't have to have live birth to be a mammal. Nope. The drop dead criteria is do you make milk for mammary

glands? That's where the word comes from. Mammal mammary. Okay. Listen. Some of you might be wondering what the heck is a mammary gland? And because this is where you come to learn science, we're going to tell you, even though some of you might want to giggle. But a mammary gland is the part of the mammal, including humans, that makes milk. So that is utters on cows or perhaps boobs on people you call mom, their mammary glands. And in fact, the word mammary has the same root word as mom. Did you know versions of the word ma mean mother in Greek and Latin and Persian in Russian, Lithuanian and German and French and Welsh in so many languages. This word is nearly universal

in Indo-European languages. And it's believed to come from the natural human animal sounds that babies, including you at one point, made when they were imitating sucking milk out of what? That's right, a mammary gland. And you can store that in your memory gland or your brain, which isn't really a gland, but that's another episode. So it doesn't matter if you drop some eggs or have a bill. It does. Ellen Skeleton wants to know why have so many mammals evolved to cooperate or stay in large groups

as opposed to other animals? So, sociality is really common in a lot of species that we see, that we attribute a lot of high cognitive function to. We see that. And that's because sociality yields a lot of benefits. Think about it. You don't have to look for a mate when it's time to mate. You can conserve your own physiological energy when it comes to keeping warm the right temperature. Being around others is a really good way

to explore them for information and other resources. So I don't have to be really good at hunting. I can let you be good at hunting and I come around and pick up scraps. So sociality has a lot of benefits. Now there are costs to it as well. So like the Hula's spreading communicative diseases, whether it's like parasites or things like the mange or even sicknesses, like what we're experiencing now, like with COVID among us, you know, sociality counts against us. Yeah. But so much of what we need to do to make a living requires for many species outright cooperation or even just passive cooperation. That evolutionary toolkit does not allow us to do a lot of things very, very well for long without the aid of others.

Right. We all affect each other and we're in this together. Mo Kasey had a great question about life expectancy and why does a mouse have such a short one compared to a horse which lives for decades and is it just size? The reason why different things live a different time is not just about size. Size is a correlate with it, but it comes down to what's happening with them physiologically, their metabolism. How long something takes? So being large enables you to avoid a lot of predators.

So big things don't have as many other things that can take them out. If you're not taking out, then you can live a long time thereafter, assuming everything else in your body isn't pretty good shape. You just gotta get through that scary, small period of your life. So that's one the reason. So once you get past that scary juvenile period,

then you can pretty much live until what we call that natural death when your body just wears out. But little things live for a short period of time because part of it is their metabolism. Their metabolism is real fast. They're they're they're burning themselves up. They we don't use that. That's not technically what's happening. But that's just one way to envision it from a late position is that they're they're always going. But the other thing that you got to keep in mind, but things like mice is they don't tend to die of old age. Like we really take for granted as people that most things don't die of old age.

Longer lived animals we tend to see what we call age-related disease, what we call natural causes of death. So things like, you know, diabetes or heart disease or later onset diseases, either due to metabolism or structure. In animals that tend to be predated upon or die early, those things just don't accumulate because they tend to die when they're still just in or just pass the prime of life. And by prime, I mean like the height of reproductive life. So in other words, when you're at the height of having the most babies.

And even looking at people, old ages are relatively new thing for us. Living to be a hundred would not have happened without the antibiotics and shells. But that was not just magic. Let's be honest. Yeah. We're the transport and talk to someone from 200 years ago, 100 years as magic. Yeah. Speaking of ancient things, a lot of patrons

wanted to know if it weren't for the asteroid wiping out the dinosaurs, do you think that mammals would have survived to today? No, that had to happen for for mammal evolution. Like they, if that like that is a critical like when I. Like that, that, that, that is a critical, like when I teach mammology, that's one of the, the one, at historical events that is critical. If it had not been for that mammal evolution, they would have stayed small.

They would have stayed in the ground. We would not have had a mammalian radiation. That's what we call it. That's when the explosion, like the mammals came above ground and they were able to diversify and form shape in species. If the dinosaur was hitting that, none of that would have happened. We would not be here if it had not have been for the KT event. Really? This is literally the first I've ever heard that.

That's amazing. Yeah. We, it's sad. They had to go for us to flourish. Okay. What about your favorite thing about being a memologist? The travel. I do science, the travel. I grew up in my family. We never got to go on family vacation. So travel was always a dream of mine. I just I just grew up working class for some of my biggest dream was to grow up to be middle class.

And so there are certain things that I have of envies of, so like being able to travel and go places and back to those nature shows that I love, they just seem to always be all over the world. And so for me being able to travel to see a lot of things for myself, I love being able to travel. This has been so great having you on. I just, I feel like I'm such a fan girl. I've been like so nervous and excited to talk about you. Thank you. I don't know what to do with folks say that

because I always like, we're talking about this. You talking about me? No, Jesus. So, ask Smurf people all kinds of furry milky questions because that's what makes mammals, mammals. And to find out more about Dr. Daniel Lee, you can see the links in the show notes. Also linked is more episodes.

Also linked is alleyword.com slash smologies, which has dozens more kids safe and shorter episodes you can blaze through. And thank you Mercedes-Mateland of Madeleine Audio and Jared Sleeper of Mind Jam Media for editing those as well as Zeke Rodriguez-Thomas and since we like to keep things small around here the rest of the credits are in the show notes but before I go I like to give you one very tiny piece of advice and this week it's just to make sure if you can that you go outside and not just go outside but if you can play outside or look at things outside,

we have so many screens around us these days full of a lot of really fun stuff. But for a million reasons, you just can't substitute the feelings that your body gets from being outside. Maybe smell some grass, dig in some dirt. You can look for bugs, you can toss a ball around for your dog, or maybe your cat on a leash. I don't know your situation. Climate tree. Just do something IRL. And I'm not just talking to kids out there. I'm talking to their parents or people who don't even have kids. And that includes myself. So yes, let's all go outside a little more. Okay. Have fun. Bye bye. Mildness. Smell it.

Already? Smell it. Smell it. Smell it. you