Ologies with Alie Ward - Smologies #38: CARNIVORES with Rae Wynn-Grant

Episode Date: February 17, 2024

Ah, charismatic megafauna! Teeth, claws, fur, poop, hibernation, hiking, nature preserves, and living your childhood dreams with Alie’s longtime -ologist crush, Dr. Rae Wynn-Grant. The large carnivore ecologist, researcher and TV presenter tells us all about her field work, what it’s like to stuff a baby bear in your coat, carnivore microbiomes, how well carnivores can taste and smell their food (and yours), how smart the average bear really is and more. Also: Is there such thing as a vegetarian carnivore?! We love her.Dr. Rae Wynn-Grant’s website, Twitter, and InstagramListen to Dr. Wynn-Grant’s podcast, Going WildA donation went to Black OutsideFull-length (*not* G-rated) Carnivore Ecology episode + tons of science linksMore kid-friendly Smologies episodes!Become a patron of Ologies for as little as a buck a monthOlogiesMerch.com has hats, shirts, hoodies, totes!Follow @Ologies on Twitter and InstagramFollow @AlieWard on Twitter and InstagramSound editing by Jarrett Sleeper of MindJam Media and Mercedes Maitland of Maitland Audio ProductionsMade possible by work from Noel Dilworth, Susan Hale, Kelly R. Dwyer & Erin TalbertSmologies theme song by Harold Malcolm

Oh, hey, it's that little burp that just congratulated you on taking fish oil. Hey, well done, Allie Ward. Welcome to Smologies. If this is your first Smologies or if you don't know what they're all about, so these are shorter and G-rated, kid safe, classroom friendly episodes of our classics. So if you're looking for the full episode, we've linked it in the show notes. But if you're looking for a condensed and all ages safe one, you've come to the right place.

So please enjoy Lions and Tigers and Bears and all the other carnivores out there. What's their deal? What's this oligist's deal? Well, I begged her to be on. She said, yes, I freaked out. Then I talked to this California born genius and media queen. She is an active working carnivore ecologist, carnivore coming from the Latin for flesh devouring.

Her job involves tromping around grasslands and forests and prairies and jungles, tracking charismatic beasts like she's in a children's book or a fever dream. You can find her on camera, hosting things like Crash Course Zoology on YouTube. She also has her own PBS podcast now called Going Wild. You may have also seen her in the PBS special American Spring Live where she was cradling tiny baby bears while snowflakes fell softly past her radiant smile and onto, once again, tiny baby bears she was cradling in her arms. So the first question I wanted to ask her was like,

are you even a real person? Because you're perfect. So let's just meet here. So get ready for flimflam, hibernation, cuddling, career juggling, plus lions, tigers, and of course bears with Explorer, media icon, and my longtime oligarch crush who texted back large carnivore ecologist,. Ray Wynn Grant.

Hello? Oh, hi. Hi, Dr. Grant. Oh, my goodness. It's finally you. Or I should say it's finally me, honestly. It's us. Okay. So, I have known you as a carnivore ecologist.

And can you explain exactly what is that and what even is a carnivore? Because there are carnivores that are omnivores, correct? Oh, absolutely correct. Absolutely. Yes. So I am a carnivore ecologist and just break it down. An ecologist is a type of scientist that does ecology. Okay. What's that? Ecology is a study of organisms and how they interact with their environment. And then I'm a carnivore ecologist, which means I study carnivores, and essentially those are meat-eating animals.

But Ali, to your point, not all carnivores eat meat. What? Yeah. What? Yeah. How does that work? Yeah. What? Yeah. How does that work? Yeah. So essentially, the reason that we call carnivores carnivores is because of taxonomy. You know, as scientists, we fall back a lot on taxonomic trees and just where we have placed species and our understandings of them compared

to each other. And so in taxonomy, we have taxonomic order called carnivora. And there's over 280 different species of mammals and carnivores. Okay, so you can just call a vegetarian animal or an omnivore a carnivore? How? Why? So carnivora is an order of mammals. And it's defined by these animals that have super sharp teeth and typically very long claws and a ferocity like they're these kind of ferocious animals that are able to hunt and kill, and they all have digestive enzymes or basically like a gut microbiome that is able to process meat. And therein, I think lies the clincher because it doesn't mean that a carnivore has to eat meat, right?

They don't have to, but they could if they did. Oh, and okay, so they have the microbiome, but also the enzymes to support the microbiome that can break down meat. Yeah, yeah. And so this is like, this can be surprising if you take something like, you know, and I'm probably going to talk about bears a lot here, but if you take something like, and I'm probably going to talk about bears a lot here, but if you take something like a panda, which is one of the eight bear species, it eats bamboo all day, but it's in the order carnivora. And it has the teeth, it has the claws, and it has the microbiome to process meat. So it looks like the ancestors of the pandas we have today probably at the least eight insects. Like, at the very least, they probably, like, grabbed a whole bunch of grubs or larvae or

something and chowed down on them. But at the most, maybe they did more than that. You know, maybe they hunted prey and really ate meat. They still could, technically, if they wanted to. Well, which carnivores are true carnivores that eat 100% proteins and other living animals? And then which ones are more generalist or omnivore? Or does it really depend on their proximity to urbanization? Sometimes it depends.

We do have what we call obligate carnivores. And those are a lot of our favorites. Those are the lions, the wolves, the tigers. Those animals hunt fresh prey and eat raw meat. They're not going to stroll through a berry patch, you know, and shout out very much. So we do have those obligate carnivores. Even take polar bears, for example, they hunt, they eat meat, and that is what they need to survive all the time. For those animals, their ecologies are slightly different than other carnavors because they are so driven by having to hunt. That's really how their whole lives are structured are around finding prey, finding prey, finding prey, and maybe stashing food.

Take a mountain lion, for example. If it does kill maybe a deer and it eats as much as it can, it'll also find a place to cache that prey for later so it can come back to it often enough. LSR Like up in a tree? LSR Like up in a tree or some kind of hidden place, because they have to expend so much energy just to get their prey, just to get their food. They don't have this dietary breadth that the omnivorous carnivores do. And so then the omnivores are a lot of different bear species.

We find coyote and raccoon and possum. Some of these mesopredators are able to definitely eat meat, but they could also scarf down a good root vegetable, tuber, they love fruit, sometimes even grasses, honey, all those kinds of things also fuel them and they're more concerned with getting fat. And so they're like, whatever will get me fat. It might be protein, but it might also be carbs.

And so we're like, whatever will make me fat is what they can eat. And then they have a wider dietary breath. And that means that they can survive in many different types of landscapes. When it comes to studying this, you know, what was it about carnivore ecology that really got you? Oh, gosh, you know, when I was a kid, I got hooked on nature shows. And in particular, what stood out to me was scientists in the jungles of Asia studying tigers. And to this day, Ali, I still have never seen a tiger. I've never been to, you know, tropical Asia. I've never done it. But it was something about tigers. It was just something about seeing tigers on the TV learning that they were endangered, learning that they were also powerful and

capable and just these supreme beings, the largest cats, and just incredibly impressive. And it's not just because they're cool and impressive and as a society, you know, we're really interested in them. But also, you know, many large carnivores are ecosystem engineers, right? Like them being at the top of what we call food chains really makes a difference. And the conservation of these animals makes a huge difference for healthy, vibrant, balanced ecosystems. And I'm like 16 years into studying the environment. I do it today both because I think it's awesome. I think these animals are awesome and cool and make for great stories and all that, but

also because I know that starting from the top is very, very purposeful. And keeping these animals around in these ecosystems is worth it and it's needed. You've been on PBS. We've gotten to see you crawling around in the snow in a bear den and holding, cradling a baby bear with permits for science. Hi, so this is one animal, one cub. Yeah, a scrapper one animal, one cub. This is number two.

Okay, and again, we just have to see exactly how many cubs are here with the mother. It's at least two, it could be three. I know, it is just so special. Well, I don't want to burst everyone's bubble here, but they are so not cuddly. Oh my goodness. I mean, let me tell you, it makes for a great little picture, but I have these like permanent scars on my chest because their claws are just like razor sharp.

You know, it's one of those things like you see a picture of a little bear cub in my coat. Again, let me be clear. The snuggling part is because these cubs are so little that they cannot thermoregulate yet. They can't create their own body heat. And so ethically, if we are going to do checkups on their little bodies, we have to give them body heat. So for the few minutes that they're away from their mother, it's our job to hold them tight and keep them warm. So that's why they're in our coats. It is adorable, but it's also, again, it's purposeful.

It's part of the science. No one needs to go out trying to cuddle wild bear cubs. Please do not. Please do not. Yes. So Dr. Wyn Grant splits her time as a media host and personality and a straight-up field biologist. What is a carnivore ecologist's job like? A day in the life for me is really different each day.

So I have an active research project. I'm super proud of it. It's really cool. I am studying a population of Black bears and mountain lions at a nature preserve on the central coast of California. And I have a lot of reason to believe that this population of bears and lions has very unique feeding behavior. Tell me more. And what I'm hinting at is that I think these bears and mountain lions access the coast. So they live in this beautiful oak woodland forest quite inland, but it looks like fairly frequently they make their way onto the beach and eat food from the beach. And we are finding the skeletons of seals and different

pinnipeds far into the Oakwoodland Forest that mountain lions have hauled in there. And we are finding black bear tracks on the beaches every morning. And so there's a lot of questions. Trying to figure out, you know, are these mountain lines? Are these bears relying on marine animals for their food? And if so, is that a new behavior? Are they doing that because there's a lack of food resources elsewhere, because human pressures have

forced them into this point? Or is this actually what Bears and Mountain Lions have always been doing in this region and it's not documented? P.S. I look this up, I had to, and just to set the scene. This is a 25,000 acre parcel of land north of Santa Barbara. That's more than twice the acreage of Manhattan, people. It's very large. That is eight miles of California coast.

It's home to about a dozen endangered species. So imagine tide pools in the shadow of rocky cliffs, which give way to rolling golden grassland. There's chaperone and scrub brush, century old oaks and pines, all mostly unaltered from evolution. So that's the work she does, tracking lions and bears, maybe not tigers yet, but oh boy, howdy. What a job. So them's the what's, but let's talk whys. If we have a forest, a lot of times we think like, okay, well, forests are important for bears. And that is true, but a bear isn't going to use every square inch of a forest. There's going to be some areas that it uses all the time, maybe because it

has the food it needs or the shelter it needs. And then some areas that it's going to avoid completely. It's really important to understand the differences in those patterns so that we can figure out where to put our efforts in protecting certain landscapes. Well, people obviously adore you. They're very excited you're on. You're too kind. Can I lob some questions from listeners? Oh my gosh, yes please. Okay, you're hot burning questions, but first, we like to take money and stuff it in people's

pockets. And Dr. Ray, when Grant shows this week's donation to go to the Texas-based nonprofit blackoutside.org. And that donation was made possible by award-approved sponsors. Well, this guest is just a Ray of Sunshine, and we all win when she grants us answers to your questions. Ray, when Grant, pay for her questions. Let's go. Great question. A lot of people asked. I'm looking at Yasmin Shelley, Batman Flight, Alevee, Lauren Cooper. They want to know in Lauren Cooper's words, why does their poop smell like rotten death? Why so stinky? Is it stinky to all animals? Wow. Oh my goodness. And this is carnivores in general, yeah? Carnivores in general. As a carnivore ecologist, I'm sure

you've been around your share of wild dookie. Why is carnivore? Is it just because rotten meat? Because rabbit poop isn't something that you're like, oh my God, I stepped in rabbit poop, I'm burning my shoes, you know? Right, right, right. You know, this is so funny because honestly,

poop is a big part of my life. You know, as a carnivore ecologist, part of a big part of my life. As a carnivory college, a big part of my carnivory ecology life, I interact with poop all the time. In fact, if you were to open my freezer right now, I have bear poop in my freezer from a friend's yard where a bear came to visit. Anyway, so it's a great question. And I would almost push back and say, like, have you ever smelled horse poop or, you know, bison poop? Herbivores can have some stinky poop, too. But I am not disagreeing, OK? Carnivore poop smells yucky.

And yeah, it's like it's flesh, right? It's the waste that comes out of digested flesh. So it's gross. And also because some carnivores are like we've been saying omnivores, that sometimes this variety of foods creates more of a stinkier poo. With that said, I have to say the poop that I interact the most with is bear poop. And it dries pretty fast. So I will say, you know, like when I come across carnivore poop, it's usually like not fresh from the animal. And

so it's usually dry. When it's dry, it doesn't smell that bad. But the bears that, you know, when it's feeding time for salmon, that's is particularly fragrant. And it is particularly unpleasant because these bears just go through salmon so fast and it's almost like diarrhea. It's not loose, gross, just kind of black tarry poo. Very important information to share. I don't want to get too graphic on your show, Ally, but it's like think out yourself. This is important. I mean, information. Think of it yourself. Yeah. I mean, who knew? Don't they have a hibernation blog? Oh my gosh.

Hibernation is just so fascinating and totally wild because, yes, speaking of poop, bears don't poop while they hibernate. Some bears hibernate for a couple months, but some bears hibernate for like six months. They don't poop. They recycle their own waste within their bodies. And their metabolism just really just shuts all the way down.

So they're not eating, but also like any waste just recycles itself in their bodies. And that is just like the superpower that bears have that we just all need to bow down to, cause it's amazing. We have so many great, so many great questions. Chloe, first-time question asker, wants to know about carnivores, what exactly do their levels of cognition reach? Like what kind of thoughts, emotions, situations are they fully capable of processing? Most of them are what we as humans consider smart and bears in

particular have one of the largest brain to body size ratios of any land mammal. So they are particularly considered like some of the smartest carnivores because they have these huge brains compared to their body size. And then take others, take wolves. We have these ideas that we got domesticated dogs from wolves because there was a learning process, right? When wolves would interact with humans over time, some wolves that took certain types of risks with their interactions with humans got certain types of rewards. And if they repeated that over and over, they became closely tied to humans and eventually were able to evolve into domesticated

dogs. So we have this idea that, you know, large carnivores, and again, this is very general, are making decisions. And a lot of the decisions they're making are fueled by instinct. And their instincts are usually pointed towards food, right? So they're like driven by hunger, for sure. What could be more important than a little something to eat? But what I think has been super interesting, especially when I used to study lions, African lions in parts of East Africa, is that if you have a carnivore, like a lion that is not hungry, studying its behavior when it's not hungry is really interesting because they all of a sudden become way less dangerous, way less protective of territory, very, very lazy almost,

kind of giving this easy life. So they're able to make choices, especially when their needs are met. They're able to think and make choices and really kind of impress us. A few patrons, including Ally Vessels and Paul Cerilio and Charlotte Felcagard, both asked essentially, do carnivores have taste buds? Like kind of lion think, ooh, this gazelle today tasted really bad. Do they have like a certain craving

for certain types of animals or foods? Oh my gosh, you know, I was really hoping that someone would not ask a question that I don't know the answer to. But here I am, like, I don't know if they have taste buds. I kind of want to say yes, honestly, because I can imagine, like now I'm thinking about all the times I've watched carnivores eat things. I can imagine that a carnivore might take a bite of something and be like, oh my god, that's bad. That might happen if something is rotten. But I think more than, this is going to be my cop out to the question, I think more than

taste buds, most of the large carnivores of the world have an incredible sense of smell. I mean, a really amazing sense of smell. And as people, we know that smell is very, very closely associated with taste. Scientists have been trying to study how far away a bear can smell something. And we haven't been able to nail down how far, because they can just always smell stuff. I mean, some scientists estimate up to five miles away

a bear could smell like someone making a barbecue. Oh, my god. I mean, it's amazing. It's amazing. I can't smell it if I'm a block away, but imagine many miles. So I would say it's probably more smell. If I'm right, that does really influence what they do eat because they won't eat everything.

They won't eat something that's rotten that will make them sick. It probably smells or maybe tastes a little bit wrong. So Dr. Wyn Grant was totally right. Carnivores have taste buds, just fewer of them as smell is much more important in finding lunch or dinner. Also Dr. Gary Buchamp, who is a Pennsylvania scientist, found that domesticated and wild cats don't have much of a preference for sweet foods,

likely because some carnivores like cats and sea lions and fur seals and harbor seals, can see the pinnipedalogy episode from around them and spotted hyenas have mutations on the TAS1R2 gene which codes for sweet taste receptors so they're like I can't really taste it I don't really care don't really like sweet that's what a lot of carnivores are doing. I'm good. Thanks. What about, I mean, this is going to be so hard, but your favorite thing about your job?

Oh gosh. Yeah, my favorite thing is that I get to physically challenge myself a lot. And I guess maybe mentally challenge myself too. And those things are tied in together because I have to say, I have to hike a lot. And I guess maybe mentally challenge myself too. And those things are tied in together. Because I have to say, I have to hike a lot for work just to get places in the field. And hiking is hard. And going through that, not for fun, but for work, there's always a benefit at the end. I never finish a hike and think to myself, I wish I hadn't done that. I almost always finish a hike and say to myself,

oh, look at me. I just did a hard thing. And it's very personal. A lot of times I'm by myself. No one saw me do it. But I really love that my actual job offers that to me often enough. And so I get to have these moments with myself

where I transform or I push through something that is just challenging enough that I get in touch with myself in a way that I really appreciate and I really love that. Oh, that's a beautiful thing. And it's such a good reminder too to get out in nature. Exactly. Well, thank you for being such an inspiration

to future bear cuddlers, to people who have decided to not cuddle bears and just get a rescue poodle instead. Even more cuddly, just saying. This has been such an honor. You are amazing. This is just such a highlight for me. I really appreciate it.

Oh my gosh. I was like, oh, today I'm talking to Dr. Win Grant. And I was like, do I put on lipstick? It doesn't even matter. She's not highlight for me. I really appreciate it. Oh my gosh. I was like, today I'm talking to Dr. Wyn Grant. And I was like, do I put on lipstick? It doesn't even matter. She's not even seeing me. I'm just excited. So yeah, this has been a big deal. So ask smart people, not smart questions,

because how else are you going to learn weird stuff? Now to find out more about this delightful person, you can see raywingrant.com. You can follow her at raywingrant on Twitter and Instagram. We're at Allergies on Twitter and Instagram. I'm Allie Ward with 1L on both. Also linked is allieward.com slash Smologies, which has dozens more kids safe and shorter episodes that you can blaze through.

And thank you Mercedes Maitland of Maitland Audio for editing those. And since we like to keep things small around here, the rest of the credits are in the show notes. And at the end of the episode, I give you a piece of advice. And this week it's that, you know when you have an alarm to wake you up because you gotta be smart, right?

Another good idea is to have a gentle alarm at night that tells you, hey, it's time to get ready for bed. Maybe 15 minutes before you want to be lights out, go brush your teeth, get in your jammies, read a little bit, but this way you won't let it get away from you. So even though a lot of kiddos have bed times they don't like, let me tell you, as an adult, it's still the best because you got to make sure that you get that eight or so

or maybe 10 or whatever hours of sleep so that you have a good day tomorrow. So a little gentle reminder that like, hey, it's time to get ready for bed. Gives you kind of an on ramp into Sleepyville. I hope that helps. Adults, that's for you too. Okay, bye bye. Knowledge is... Knowledge is...

Knowledge is... Knowledge is... Knowledge is...