Ologies with Alie Ward - Smologies #9: GAMING with Jane McGonigal

Episode Date: January 11, 2022

Games! Play! Fun! Addiction? Flim-flam? From the origins of tabletop classics to the future of VR, Dr. Jane McGonigal answers our burning questions. This video game developer, TED speaker and bestselling author is an expert on how playing -- and especially video games -- can motivate, soothe and connect us. Will video games turn your child into a future car thief? How do they make you stronger? How much is too much? What about slot machines? Everyone who loves games (and everyone who hates games) should hear this one.The uncut, adult version of Ludology plus research linksMore Smologies episodesDr. McGonigal’s website and TwitterDr. McGonigal’s new book “Imaginable” is due out March 22, 2022A donation went to AbleGamers  Sponsors of OlogiesTranscripts & bleeped episodesBecome a patron of Ologies for as little as a buck a monthOlogiesMerch.com has hats, shirts, pins, totes!Follow @Ologies on Twitter and InstagramFollow @AlieWard on Twitter and InstagramEditing by Zeke Rodrigues Thomas & Jarrett Sleeper of MindJam MediaSmologies theme song by Harold MalcolmSpecial thanks to Susan Hale, Noel Dilworth, Kelly Dwyer and Emily White

Hey, it's that guy down the hall who wears fanny packs and now you want to wear a fanny pack But if he notices it'll be weird, but maybe he'll be flattered alleyward here with a 64-bit version of the 9th episode of Smologies, what is small g's? I'm so glad you asked So we took full allergies episodes and then we sliced them and diced them up to make these really bite-sized Classroom friendly edits of our deep dive classics So if you have not listened to the original full-length episode of lethargy and you don't mind Some not-safer school details and lots of swearing go back listen to that version The link is in the show notes

But if you only have about 20 minutes or you need a g-rated version that's suitable for all ages. You're in the right place Let the games begin. Okay in this episode we sit down with letologist and game designer Speaker and someone I was just talking about and quoting her in last week's full-length Neuro pathology episode about concussion therapy So she has done two wildly popular TED Talks written two New York Times Best-selling books including one called reality is broken She also wrote the 2015 release super better and she has a new book coming out March 22nd 2022 I just asked her about it today. It's called imaginable. It's all about how we can play games and use our imagination to predict

Otherwise hard to predict futures. She earned her PhD from the University of California at Berkeley in performance studies Where she went on to teach game design and game theory and another little fun fact She was named one of the 20 most inspiring women of the world by Oprah just fun facts But she's known the best as the inventor and the co-founder of super better Which is a game that's helped more than a million people tackle actual real-life health problems and if that isn't enough she also teaches at Stanford University She's the director of game research and development at the Institute for their future. So a

Lodologist she is one and Lodology is a real word. I swear. I looked it up. It means the study of games It comes from the Latin word Ludare to play so playing. Yay The word was coined sometime around the 1950s so it didn't mean video games back then because Time machines are not a thing but nowadays it can encompass all kinds of gameplay from sports To card games and of course, yes video games. So in this small small g's condensed clean episode We cover how video games can help improve brain function and build tenacity We talk about gamifying your life how online communities

Kind of translate to relationships in real life and how different games have different effects on the brain Also, how much is too much gameplay? Hmm. I know We all want to know and also essentially video games good or bad So let's press start on a conversation that will one up our brains and unlock some achievements with Lodologist and game designer dr. Jane McGonigal. She her Can you tell me kind of how games change the way we think or what happens in the brain? What happens is dopamine and serotonin like what's going on? Yeah, isn't that brainy soup? Yeah, okay? There's like so much I want people to know about this and they're two big pieces and so I want to tell both of them because not everybody

Like benefits from playing video game. It takes them out of reality It takes them out of their social relationships and their goals So I want to preface what I'm gonna say by this doesn't naturally happen for all people like the good things And there are ways that you can if you don't have a good relationship with gaming that you can change it so that you're more Luckily to get the benefit so I just want to preface all this by saying it's not like games There's a magic pill that you play them and good things happen to you It really depends on how you play and why you play that good things can happen for a lot of people Just allow me to reiterate that disclaimer games are not a magic pill and not everybody benefits from video games

And however, they can really help in the following ways So that the signature thing that I would say as probably the person who has Studied I mean, I don't think there's ever been a scientific paper written about video games that have not read Thousands of them. I am on it. I would say this sort of signature finding has to do with self-efficacy So self-efficacy is the belief that You have the ability to take actions that can help you achieve your goals, right? And that so you have skills you have resources you have pathways forward and Different people have different kinds of self-efficacy like I might have a lot of self-efficacy as a cook in the kitchen

But maybe not in my fashion like sense of like what should I wear today? I'm just not Feeling like I have a lot of talent in that area different people have self-efficacy in different areas But if you have the experience of gaining self-efficacy in new areas It can develop a kind of mindset that does translate So if you are often doing things that you're bad at and then stay with it and get better And suddenly you have new skills and you acquire new resources and you have achieved new goals and milestones Your brain gets better at looking at a difficult skill or task and saying let me try it because I have a

Great and long history of getting better at things that I'm bad at and that's what gaming does for most people And the more different games you play The more your brain gets used to being frustrated Hanging in there feeling optimistic in the face of setbacks and that is the one Generalizable positive impact of games that we see no matter what kind of game you play Sport challenging cooperative board game. You're playing bridge. You're playing a video game if we can help you Get comfortable with not being good at something trying using your skills and ability to get better at it And then you do in fact get better that that can translate to the rest of your life

So games help us get comfy with being a total newbie at something So when we try new things whether it's a video game or something in the three-dimensional realm We're accustomed to being really frustrated at first and being like er. I hate this. I'm so bad at it Oh wait, and then we gradually get better and better with time and effort and we're like, oh, I can apply this to my life So to receive the full benefit of that the doc says make sure you're always playing different games like the person who always plays Mindsweeper or solitaire like I've been playing it for 30 years Not not having this benefit, but when you look at the research literature the people who really benefit from this experience are people who

Feel like games are real in a way like they don't see them as escapists They don't play games to ignore their problems or like shove down negative Feelings or get away from people who are annoying them Those people tend to not benefit because they see games as separate from reality So they don't bring the same mindset to real life and those are the type of players who go on to be Like you know when you would call it addicted it's not quite an addiction But it's a kind of compulsive gameplay where they play more than it's good for them Is there a difference in games where you're playing against a computer versus you are in a community and your friends are on a headset

And you're all yelling at each other trying to like you know kill it the same elf Huge difference and it's not that one is better or worse or they're they're good for different things, right? So like if you're dealing with anxiety or depression a single-player game is actually really good It because you can like pull out your phone and play it for a few minutes because one of the benefits of games is that it can stop Rumination right so if you're anxious you're anxious because you're imagining things that could go wrong, right? And it requires it requires your brain to be actively focused on Visualizing things that scare you so one of the best treatments for anxiety in the moment It's to just stop the ruminations to to make a conscious decision not to spend time and energy on these thoughts

And so a game on your phone. It could be like a mini golf game It could be you know candy crush it could be words with friends anything that you can play by yourself It's fine because it stops the thought same with depression people depression ruminate on very negative thoughts about themselves or their Circumstances, maybe it's the new word game wordle created by Josh wordle as a present for his word game obsessed partner Or maybe like for my husband Jarrett. It's League of Legends with his brothers and friends either way It's nice to interrupt destructive thought patterns with a good old fashioned game And if you can stop that flow of thought it's a it's an effective treatment So single-player games are great and they are really helpful for things like anxiety depression and pain but

Social games are phenomenal for other things the quality of positive emotions they create The trust that they build it's interesting. You mentioned League of Legends There's been great research showing that people who play League of Legends Regularly have a stronger social support network than just about any other gamer Meaning there are more people in their lives who will be there for them if they need advice if they need help in reality like help moving or You know assistance physical assistance people play League of Legends very powerful Social support system so each type of gaming experience has its benefits

She says and social games seem to lead to a bigger sense of community and family that can transfer to real life But can you play too many video games? And is there a connection between playing video games and those shiny flickering jingling slot machines? Essentially is gaming like gambling to the brain. There are only a few letters off after all. Oh my gosh Ali there's so much to say here Let me start let me start with the gambling question because this I think people if people can understand this it will alleviate a lot of anxiety around Video gaming versus casino gaming the thing that happens in your brain

Where you feel like something good could happen as a result of your actions It is identical in gambling and video gaming Right the part of your brain that says try again try again You might win go ahead go for it that keeps you at that Slot machine or you just need to play another hand in in gambling or you know make another bet Yes, that is identical to what's happening in video gaming, but What happens in video gaming is you actually get better at Skills and you acquire more resources and you gain more allies who can teach you and help you and show you the way

And as opposed to You know luck-based gambling where you just you know pulling the slot lever or scratching off a lottery ticket You can actually get better and improve your chances of winning in video gaming So it is a completely different psychological experience a different neurological experience Because it is not delusional to stay engaged Okey-doke so before the lightning round of questions from patrons who sign up at patreon.com Sashologies, it's a buck month just saying each week a portion of the ad revenue goes to a cause of theologist choosing and Jane loves Able gamers org which in their words gives people with disabilities custom gaming setups including

Modified controllers and special assistive technology like devices that let you play with your eyes So they can have fun with their friends and family So a donation went to able gamers org who are doing awesome stuff. So thank you Jane for telling us about them So a few words from sponsors who make that donation a reality Okay back to your patreon questions, which are good ones one patreon question I got a ton from Mark Williams and from David Bafa and from Sasha KD They all asked about gamification and I know that I don't think that you love the word But is the gamification of behavior a useful technique Sasha K wants to know how do you feel about gamification of everything?

Yeah, I you are awesome Ali for knowing that I do not use a word gamification to describe my own work because just Historically, it's been used not in ways that authentically empower or bring the best out of the people who are being gamified so My philosophy is if you are Connecting with somebody's deeply held values. What do they want more of in their life? They want to be a better parent. They want to learn something new every day They want to be braver and get out in the world more be more physically active, you know whatever it is that they authentically want to do that they choose for themselves if you can put a

quest system or a leveling up system or a kind of Cooperation opportunity where there are multipliers if you if you and your friends are doing it together you can add some game design elements that Help people do more of what they want and if they do it They're going to experience an upper spiral of skill and ability so they can maintain it outside of the game That's an ideal situation for gamification So basically if it helps you achieve your goals from uno to magic the gathering to Tarkov Then dr. Jane fully supports it

But what about the classic of all classics the one we all know and love the falling block majesty of Tetris and then a bunch of people Colin Matthew Carla Kennedy Helen Amy Connor all asked about dreams. Why do I dream of Tetris after playing Tetris for a long time? Two people in particular Colin and Amy both said I love Tetris, but if I play it too long I start thinking about it all the time and when I close my eyes I literally see little tetromino swallow like why does this happen? This is the greatest question because the other public service announcement I always like to do about video games actually has to do with Tetris and how it takes over your mind

because There have been three randomized control studies and clinical trials now Including one in the field with people who experienced traumatic events that show that The way that Tetris takes over your brain so that you are flashing back to it It can prevent flashbacks associated with post-traumatic stress disorder and there's actually increasing usage of Tetris within 24 hours of a traumatic event that if you play Tetris within 24 hours and before you go to sleep That your brain is more likely to flash back on Tetris and the event which reduces the rate of Traumatic flashbacks in the future

And it happens because Tetris is so visually compelling and requires so much visual attention That your brain essentially diverts resources from everything else and it works so hard on this problem That when you walk away from it your brain is Continuing to work on it if you had a really bad day and you don't want to sit there thinking about it or like stay up all night Thinking about it. You can use Tetris to block your brain from flashing back on an experience that you don't want to remember You use the power of Tetris to flash back on Tetris. That's right Tetris Saving you from stressful replays in your brain. You heard it here first But what about just strapping a game console and a screen to your actual face? Is that too much?

I got a ton of questions about VR. Yeah, like Justin so Deon Dabolo Kirana Bergstrom and Janelle York all wanted to know what video game advances should we look forward to like how do you see the industry Developing and how does VR and AR change game design like virtual reality and augmented. Yeah So many things, okay I'll focus on a few things one advance that we are going to see in gaming in general as a result of virtual reality I believe is that gaming will become a socially safer and more pleasant space for people who have

Historically experienced more harassment. So for women people who are identified as queer There can be a lot of harassment in social gaming and that's just a fact I spent a lot of time talking to VR developers and I know that all the major VR developers are very much focused on not repeating the Mistakes of the past of both social media and video gaming They do not want VR to be a space where anybody can come up to you and tell you what they think Anybody can come up to you and have an interaction with you. They want to invent new kinds of Technologies for consent for who can see you who can touch you who can talk to you I'm very optimistic that VR is going to

Thoughtfully not replicate the kind of toxic environments that we've seen in social media and video gaming in the past That's one thing. Yeah Another thing that I'm excited about in VR is VR eSports. I mean eSports is obviously becoming Really popular and accepted. I mean, there are college scholarships. There's college leagues. There's more people watching online world championships for the biggest League of Legends finals than watched Major League Baseball World Series and watch the NHL. Okay quick aside just to fact check this

Let's look at the most watched World Series in recent years 2016 Chicago Cubs are in the World Series for the first time since 1907 this is a big deal game 7 who's gonna win the viewership is about triple What it usually is for a World Series with 40 million people watching the Chicago Cubs take the victory 40 million. Oh, but last year the number of people watching the League of Legends finals was a hundred million Well, that's an exaggeration. It was 99.6 million. So yeah, that's a lot. Sorry Cubs It's very popular but I'm interested in eSports and VR because the eSports and VR are often very physical if you look at images or videos of them online

You see people leaping and crawling and there's a real blend of physical sport but also all the things that require you to be good in video games and eSports the kind of fast reflexes and visual attention and resource management that are the kind of strategic Decision-making that we see in traditional video games and eSports. So I'm excited for VR eSports also as a as a way to have both real physical and beautiful Gameplay alongside traditional eSports skills. So in the future We could see sports and eSports come together and possibly put us in some form of the oasis

From ready player one and I know people who use their Oculus Quest headsets to work out via beat saber and other apps Which kind of feels like going to the gym in Star Trek's holodeck in the best way, but is there a world where maybe that's a little too immersive? It's just a little much. Can you spend too much time playing video games? My nephew Mason is nine and I just got back from the holidays with him and he and his parents have a Difference of opinion on this issue as you can imagine Let's see Matt Solgado, Carla Hickenlooper Rod of Acarya, Carla Kennedy and a few other people asked about addiction

When should kids start playing video games and how much is too much? Okay, so You cannot go wrong if you are playing the game with them. That's that's the first and most important rule There's no too soon if you are playing with them and talking to them about it And for as long as you can continue this the better So even if it's a single-player game, you know, some of these are building something in Minecraft. You are sitting right there You're like, what are you doing? How did you know to do that? How did you figure that out? Like, ah, it looks really hard What's going on? Talk to your kids. Let them express their problem-solving process What's motivating them about the game? Why is this fun?

You want to just draw out as much as you can because it allows kids to Really reflect on how they learn what they're getting better at How they are capable of solving difficult problems and staying engaged with hard challenges Games are just the most incredible environment for you to validate your kids skills and abilities as a learner as a creative person as a problem-solver and The other thing about in terms of timing I did help do a meta-analysis of all the studies that have looked at kids and adults How much is too much and I will say that there

Have never been studies showing ill effects when people are playing less than 20 hours a week You do see impacts on school performance on social relationships with people who don't play games on physical health and well-being over 20 hours per Week so that's just another kind of safe zone and in cases of serious Pathological gameplay when people are staying up all night. They're not doing the schoolwork and not looking for a job I always say get it that to 20 hours or less. Do not take the game away okay, so there's a sweet spot of 20 hours or less a week, but your mileage may vary and really just make sure that you're prioritizing the big things sleep

rest family and friends time your schoolwork your big goals and Recognize when you're relaxing and when you're escaping because life maybe feels too painful Speaking of pain a lot of us wanted to know is there a connection between video games with violent content and three-dimensional real-life Bad behavior if you play video games stealing cars, are you gonna go around and steal a bunch of cars? You're trained to do it now. I don't know about you specifically But you know what I mean and so a bunch of people asked about violence of video games Emily Brabish and Elizabeth Janelle York Lauren Murray

McKay Sarah Jane James Amber Cooper and then they all kind of asked do violent video games cause more violence Look statistically, we know that 96% of men under 21 play Violent video games and I prefer to use the term like games with violent content because Obviously the most violent game is like football real football where you are hitting people and causing brain injuries That is an actually violent game video games are not actually violent. So let's say games with Violent content or aggressive themes. Everybody plays them and if you look at the data Violent crime has gone down and down and down

exactly as Engagement with violent themed games has gone up and up. I mean, it's like it's ridiculous if there were any any Correlation let alone causation you would not see this trend. This is like Anybody who studies this will that's the first thing they will say is over the past 30 years Violence crime goes down particularly in this demographic this male demographic violent theme gameplay is going up It's just not there's no data to suggest that there is any kind of correlation let alone causation However, that said two things there are certain types of gameplay that can turn you into a jerk not a violent person But somebody who has less empathy for people they perceive as weaker than them and who are kind of moodier

And may yell at you or be grumpy to you and you're just like, oh, why are you so obnoxious or such a jerk? That kind of gameplay is when you play in these very aggressive themed games against strangers who you don't know And we'll never see in person. We tend to dehumanize those opponents. We don't know who they are So we're playing anonymously online. We're trying to beat them We build up in our mind that there's like horrible people and we hate them and we feel antagonistic towards them And those emotions that we build up the frustration the anger the hatred It's not like you just walk away from the game and they evaporate so they can linger a lot of people don't want to simulate violence because we don't enjoy it and

That's a natural feeling and it's why a lot of people are turned off by video game culture. It's not abnormal To not enjoy violence like that's a that's also a normal thing if you're turned off by it That's okay, and you don't have to play violent video games or if you play them You don't have to necessarily engage in the violent aspects of them Okay, got it so video games with violent content won't necessarily make you a violent person but playing certain types of games can make you More of a jerk when you're not playing maybe even monopoly, which just quick aside I have to tell you this it was actually the early

1900s brainchild of an anti-capitalist activist and a comedian and a writer and a Unmarried woman by the name of Elizabeth Maggie and she created monopoly It was then called the landlords game as a cautionary tale and in her old-timey words Let the children see clearly the gross injustice of our present land system and when they grow up the evil will be remedied Well, we had such high hopes Lizzie But perhaps the irony was a little too lost on us because she was at a party playing it with her friends And then some jabroni liked it and ripped her off

He paid her 500 bucks for the idea and then he made millions of dollars distorting its message because capitalism The very thing she was trying to warn us about anyway So that's why you feel bad when you play a monopoly and you watch your family become destitute while you own like four railroads Anyway, let's look on the brighter side of gaming. Shall we after nearly 20 years in this industry in this field What is the shiniest light when it comes to letology? What is your favorite thing about video games or about what you do? I mean my my favorite thing is I love

With discovering a new game with my husband still we've been together since 2000 so almost 20 years now and one of the first things we did together was play an adventure game called grim Fandango one-player Lucas arts browser a game you like explore world together and it's we send a few weeks playing it together And I still like I love when a new game comes out Whether it's gone home game or a fortnight We can sit and experience it together and we have this sort of memorable moments in our history I'm like when we found portal when we found braid when we found World of Warcraft. I really love Developing a skill with him together and having that that novelty and that

Exploration and curiosity. There's so many positive emotions that we feel when we play and when you can feel them with someone you love It's really powerful Whoa, wow, so ask smart people Playful questions because there's a lot more to video games than any of us previously thought so we learned that they can change the way we think they can build confidence and Resilience they can build communities online that translate to communities in real life We also learned Tetris requires a ton of mental focus and a bunch of different games is better for our brains Then just playing one game over and over and also that maybe we should try and limit our time playing video games to 20 hours

Or less a week depending on if you're meeting your top priorities in life and you know self-care things like that So to find out more about dr. Jane McGonagall you can go to Jane McGonagall.com. It's linked in the show notes She's also avant game on Twitter. I'll link all of this in the show notes including link to the non-profit able gamers org and Where to find the sponsors of the show in case you're interested in them and Jane's books include her upcoming March 22nd release imaginable how to see the future coming and feel ready for anything even things that seem impossible today and also her 2015 best-seller is super better. Those are all linked on my website You can find out more at alley board comm slash

Smologies you can find more small g's episodes there in case you are listening and you want to binge on some Thank you to dr. Jane McGonagall and thank you to any new small gites new episodes are out about every two weeks and links to the full Lethalogy episode or grown-ups or children who don't mind swearing there is much more detail and Again, lots of curse words. Those are available on alley board comm or in the show notes and a full list of credits for this episode Can be found there as well since we like to keep things nice and small around here And if you listen to the end of the show, you know, I give you a piece of advice and this week It's that I just realized that there is a feature in Gmail that lets you add a task list Google it. It's amazing. You check the box next to an email

You add it to your task list and it pulls up on the side of your email So you can just find what you're doing easily click an email instead of just putting random stars on things And it actually I will be honest kind of gamifies your to-do list because you get to click it and then it disappears And you go, haha, I did that. So if you have a Gmail box, very helpful. I don't know if that helps anyone else also kids floss your teeth because Your dentist will love you and in the future when you're a grown-up You're gonna spend way less money getting cavities filled and you can spend it on more fun stuff Like a virtual reality headset that your parents won't let you buy when you're a kid

Okay, that's all for this week until next time small agites. Bye. Bye I Called them the Super Mario Brothers