Ologies with Alie Ward - Testudinology (TORTOISES) with Amanda Hipps

Episode Date: January 22, 2019

What's a tortoise? What's a turtle? Why do they live so dang long? What's up with their junk? Wildlife biologist and testudinologist Amanda Hipps studies gopher tortoises and dishes about turtle nomenclature, cliques, dicks, behavior, burrows, evolution, habitats and more. If you don't dig tortoises yet, you're about to fall deep into a turtle tunnel in love with them.Follow Amanda Hipps on Instagram or TwitterThis week's donation was made to AlongsideWildlifeFoundation.orgSponsor link: www.thegreatcourses.com/ologies More links at www.alieward.com/ologies/testudinologyBecome a patron of Ologies for as little as a buck a month: www.Patreon.com/ologiesOlogiesMerch.com has hats, shirts, pins, totes!Follow @Ologies on Twitter or InstagramFollow @AlieWard on Twitter or InstagramSound editing by Steven Ray Morris & Jarrett SleeperTheme song by Nick ThorburnSupport the show: http://Patreon.com/ologies

Oh, hey, it's that lady in front of you, the grocery store who didn't realize she was holding up the line because she's reading a magazine. Allie Ward. Okay, this is kind of two episodes of oligies because over the next two weeks, you're gonna get up close and personal with those wizened, slowly ambling boulders, tortoises, and turtles, and sea turtles. What is their deal? Why do they live to be one million? Do they need us to save them? Are they misanthropes or just introverts, etc., etc.

But before we take a deep dive in a turtle burrow, and we will, kiddos, per usual, a thanks to all the friends on patreon.com slash oligies, who help support the making of the show and contribute so many good questions for the oligists. Thanks to everyone who is buying shirts and totes and hats on oligiesmerch.com. Thanks to all the new subscribers, hey, and folks leaving ratings and even reviews, which you know I read like your grandma going through old birthday cards, like this week, this one from Put A Burke On It says, This is the type of binge-worthy podcast that makes you sit in your driveway after a 90-mile commute home from work at 4 a.m. Just because you have to finish the episode. Not that I've done that.

Okay, yeah, I have, they say. So thank you Put A Burke On It. Thanks to anyone who has ever left a review. If you've written one, I've read it and it made me happy probably. Okay, so turtles. Whew, boy howdy. Are you about to fall the hell in love with turtles? Okay, over the next two weeks, turtles will be digging a gentle burrow in your heart,

where they will sleep like little cozy potatoes for the next, I don't know, 140 years. So this week is Testudonology, which comes from the Latin Testudo for tortoise. And I was introduced to this Testudonologist through reptile hero Dr. David Steen, who you may remember from the herpetology episode, remember him? Right? Dope. I was like, Steen, you got any turtle people and he was like, God damn, do I? And he introduced me to one of his favorite turtle people on maybe planet Earth.

She did her undergrad at the University of North Florida. She had an internship at the Jacksonville Zoo Animal Hospital and is now getting her masters at Florida Atlantic University studying gopher tortoises. And what critters share their burrows? And doing some digging, it turns out that her tortoise love goes way, way back. So we talk about turtles versus tortoises versus terrapins. What's up with those big heavy shells they're toting and how team turtle is affected by humans, her feelings on teenage mutant ninja turtles.

They're very crazy anatomy, let's say, and how they live so long and more. Also, I feel I must warn you that these two turtle interviews this week and next, I'm a little too excited about turtles. It was just legitimately very earnestly pumped. But pull up a stump and have a sit for the infectious dedication of tortoise advocate, wildlife biologist and testinologist Amanda Hips. Okay, so welcome. Hello.

Thank you. Welcome to LA. And now, where are you from? I'm from Florida, from South Florida. Oh, you are? Like Fisherman Town Stewart. Did you grow up going to beaches a bunch or romping in swamps? I did.

Were you beached? Mostly, like, I liked the beach. It's fine. But I mostly I was in the woods or the swamps. And so, yeah, that was kind of my family really loved hiking. So that was a lot of what we did was just hike. What are the Florida swamps like? Take me to...

It's so smelly. It's so great. I love them. She loves a smelly swamp. How much do you like her already? So much. I don't think I've ever been in a proper swamp. Oh, my gosh.

You had to come. Yeah? Yeah. So just even like hiking in a swamp, it's called slogging and I love this. And I don't know. It's just it's like kind of is super creepy. Like I you never know what you're going to bump into. There's alligators and snakes and just tons of mosquitoes, which is maybe the most unpleasant

part of all of it. But I don't know, it's just like a very mysterious place and it's like very little hiked. There's, you know, not too many people that you'll run into out there. Is anybody out there? Hello. How in danger of getting chopped? Are you? I you just have to watch where you're going.

Yeah. It's, you know, just be cautious and but I've never had it. I've never really like bumped into an alligator and they're so scared. Like they're usually they usually kind of disappear if they see you coming. But you have to be careful. What's the craziest shit you've ever seen in a swamp? I'm sorry. I'm going to just start another podcast called Swamp Talk.

Oh, my God. I love it. I had a really cool picture when I was in the swamp of a cotton mouth and he was just chilling. And cotton mouths are the ones that can, they can bite you bad. Right? Yeah, they can. They are venomous.

And so those are the ones that everyone, they see like a dirty hose at a gas station and they're like, it's a cotton mouth. Yeah. Yeah. That's exactly it. So side note. If you've listened to the herpetology episode with Dr. David Steen, you may remember the hashtag not a cotton mouth in which he educates the public about the snakes that are frequently,

in fact, not cotton mouths. And he sometimes educates someone so hard that I'm in a good mood for days afterward. He just owns them. Do you think that your swamp romping kind of contributed to your wanting to be a herpetologist of some kind? Yeah, absolutely. What's crazy is that I never considered being a wildlife biologist actually like going to school and doing my undergrad.

I was so lost. I knew I wanted to work with wildlife, but I didn't really have like exposure to any of the sciences. And so I kind of just thought like, I want to work with animals, I should probably go to vet school. And that's kind of the guidance that I got. Like I think that's what everyone told me was just to go to vet school. No one ever really suggested like, why don't you like go be a wildlife biologist?

Okay, buckle up for a winding backstory that proves no one's life is linear. And that is beautiful and awesome. So I started, I did my entire undergrad, kind of just gearing it towards going to vet school. And that's really like, I planned my entire life around vet school. So I did all of my undergrad courses with that. And I ended up working for the Jacksonville Zoo as an intern at the Jacksonville Zoo Animal Hospital. Oh.

And I was, I know it was so great. Well, it was very hard in some circumstances. It was dealing with mostly wildlife and native wildlife and doing rehab and then releasing. So it was pretty cool, but I was dealing a lot with gopher tortoises. Most of them were hit by cars. Oh no. Yeah. And so it was really awful.

We were euthanizing a whole bunch. Quick rundown. So gopher tortoise territory is in the eastern southern United States, but most remaining gopher tortoises are in fact, Floridians. So they're about a foot long. They're between eight and 12 pounds. Ladies are bigger. Hello.

And they have these strong scaly legs that are like alive garden trowels. And Amanda was also helping rehab injured tortoises, working sometimes for months with individuals whose shells had been split until they healed and then releasing them back into the wild. But that didn't seem like enough. She was like, damn it. I love these little mofos. I feel like I should try to figure out how to help them in other ways. I would really like to get to know them from like the wildlife perspective.

I started kind of like reading about gopher tortoises because I just was fascinated by them. What kind of game do these gopher tortoises have? How does a gopher tortoise slowly burrow its way into your heart? I don't know. It's so crazy. I think it was more just feeling like there were so many that were coming in. And I don't know.

I don't know how they did it. How did they do that? As far as like really how they stole my heart, I'm really not sure. I don't know how that happened. So you started reading and reading about them and you're like, oh no, I've become obsessed with gopher tortoises. Exactly what happened. Yeah.

I don't know. I started just like looking into them because I was like, oh, they're what's called a keystone species. And that's where I started learning, you know, all about gopher tortoises and all like this. This is a really incredible animal. And I was learning about their burrows and how so many other animals will share their burrows. Oh.

And so really important for the ecosystem. Yeah. So they have stowaways? Yes. Is that what a keystone species is? Not necessarily, no. Okay. Like the beaver is considered an ecological engineer and a keystone species because they're

rearranging habitat. They're taking these trees, they're building dams, they're altering hydrology of rivers. And that's like ultimately affecting the wildlife that's coming, it's affecting the entire ecosystem. Same thing with a gopher tortoise. They dig these massive burrows. Oh. They'll be, they can be up to 40 feet long. They're burrows or the tortoise.

They're not kidding. They're just a really a stretch limousine tortoise. They're like, damn. No wonder why it's getting hit, man. That's like 40 feet long. Okay. So their burrows can be just like catacombs? Yeah.

They dig these massive burrows. They're, they're the size of the tortoise. The shape of it is just like a tortoise, but they can be up to 40 feet. On average, they're like 15 to 20, but I like, I've definitely seen ones that are bigger. Damn. So side note, I just went and looked up videos of these turtles with these bedonkabuts, just flinging sand, like little machines behind them, and it's the adorable list. Their burrows are kind of like if you had a tortoise silhouette from behind that was

a cookie cutter that you just bored deep into a hillside, like, I live in a tunnel. These other animals are using it. There's some species that like have just co-evolved with them and have are like are fully reliant on them. I want to live in a gopher tortoise burrow. Me too. That sounds more spacious than my apartment in Los Angeles, to be honest, like square footage wise.

Yeah. Damn. But then you have all these roommates. That's true. There's moles and like weevils. I think it's just coming in like, yeah, taking over. And so you started learning that they're this keystone species because the work that they do lets other animals kick it with them.

Exactly. They're like, they're the kind of people that like buy a big house in Tarzana and they're like pool party on Sunday come over. Literally that's exactly. That's what they do. They do. This is what a party looks like. I mean, and like it's, it's, it's used for many different reasons.

Some of them are like some animals are coming in to feed. Some of them are coming to just a site for reproduction. There's a number of insects, which is actually what I'm studying, that are living in these burrows and they're fully reliant on the gopher tortoise, but they also have this mutualistic relationship where they're feeding on dung. So they're like the housekeeping service. I can imagine if your maid's like, I ate your garbage. Yeah.

They come in, clean it, they're eating, they're just living their life and rolling around and shit. And they're, it's, it's, they're not just any dung beetle though. It's like they're very specific. They're only eating poop. They might be eating poop, but they're really particular about what they're like, what kind of food they're eating. And I was like, this is fascinating.

And then just researching it, I found that at my university, university in North Florida, there is an advisor that was studying them, a professor there, Joe Butler. And so I contacted him and I was like, Hey, heard you're doing some field work with gopher tortoises. Can I jump in on this? I volunteer as tribute. Yeah. That's kind of just how I got started.

And then that's when I was like, there's this whole field of wildlife biology. Oh my God. What am I doing here? So Amanda had been working on projects studying the reproductive success of gopher turtles. And she still had plans to go to vet school. She even applied and she was accepted, but she just like, she just wasn't really sold on it. I ended up just being like, I don't think I want to go.

I don't really want to work with just cats and dogs. And so I kind of got involved with exotic animals and working with out of vet in Colorado. And he worked mostly with reptiles. And I just still, I really didn't like it. I was like, I don't want to be in a hospital. I really wanted to be outside. That's such a difference, I guess. Like having your parking spot and your coffee mug and like, you know where you're going

to sleep, you know what time you're waking up versus some people probably couldn't handle what I'm now calling swamp romping or like, you know, burl recording or whatever. Like I guess it really depends on what kind of lifestyle you want. Right? Exactly. How clean you want your fingernails to. Oh my God. It's so true.

I wanted to be dirty. It's true. It's true. I, yeah, I didn't love working inside. I liked working with the animals, but I didn't really love the work itself. So that's when I was like, okay, I, I don't want to do this anymore. And so I went to Madagascar and that's a knot. That's not Florida.

Not Florida. You're like by Florida. Yeah. So I went to Madagascar and kind of got on to this internship where I was studying reptiles but mostly snakes. And that was amazing. It was a really, really great experience. And that's really what got me into like, I was like, this is it.

Like this is the best that I felt. You're like ectotherms are my people. Yeah. Yeah. Are they ectotherms? They are. Oh man. For a second, my brain froze and I thought I got that wrong and I was mortified.

But yes. Yes. Okay. Of course. Turtles are ectotherms. That means that they rely on external sources of heat, which is why you'll see turtles just baskin on a log, like pasty Florida spring breakers. And also why it's so important to dig out burrows, which are pretty much like walking

into an air conditioned movie theater in July, but darker and full of dirt and cool bugs that eat your poo. When you are starting to get obsessed with turtles, like what kind of books are you reading? What kind of chat groups are you in? What kind of group texts? Talk to me about the turtle world. Honestly, when it comes to connecting with people in the turtle world, it's social. Social media.

Really? Yeah. Turtle Twitter? It's Instagram. It's Twitter. Turtle Twitter. I mean, there's so many like turtle groups on Instagram. Look, okay.

When you say turtle groups, are these like the sea turtle people, the tortoise people, the turtle people? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So they're different factions. I mean, they're all like, yeah, I kind of think if you're a turtle person, you're a tortoise person.

Vicerosa. All right. That's a good segue because we need to get to this right now. Okay. I mean, I should have asked you this the second you walked in the door. Turtle versus tortoise. All right. What's the deal?

Okay. Well, tortoises are turtles. Okay. They are turtles, but they're just adapted to living life on land. So their limbs are different. Their legs are built for walking and digging. So a sea turtle really should have a, should a sea turtle have a different name, like a turtle that way?

A turtle. Like a turtle. I love it. You know, like a turtle is like just like a whatever. We're all turtles. And you're fully sea, you're a turtle, you're fully land, you're a tortoise, you're maybe a little bit of both your turtle, but you're all turtles. I think we need to talk about this.

Okay. This needs to be, this needs to be maybe a change we make. I mean, I just feel like let's get specific about turtles. Give me some just overall anatomical facts about turtles because here's the thing about turtles. We know there's stuff going on under that shell. Oh yeah. What is happening under that shell?

It's like if there's a silver dome over a platter of food and it's just a mystery cloaked in fancy armor. We don't know. What kind of organs? Do they have five hearts? How many butts do they have? You know, do they even have a liver? Like what's going on in there?

Okay. Well, yeah. I know that it's, that's where it all happens. That's where everything's happening. The party is under the shell. So with the shell, the ribs and the spine are like built in to the shell and to the top of the shell. So it's part of it.

So tortoise can't leave it shell. I mean, that is everything. A lot of people will really do think that they can just walk off and find a new one if they're growing. Oh, well there's some flim flam we debunked. Yeah. They're stuck with that shell for life and how, how is it growing? Okay.

So the shell is bone. Oh. Yeah. So it's bone and then it's just, it has a cover, a keratin, it's covered in keratin. So it's like our fingernails or hair, but it's bone. And so it's growing with, with the tortoise. Oh. Yeah.

And so it's basically like you can age a tortoise by looking at the shell and it's got rings on the, on each of the skews. And so it's basically like, like trying to age a tree. Oh my God. So each skew, which is like those parquet floor tiles kind of gets a new ring every year. Yeah. Every season. Is that partly because of conditions like in a tree, like the rings happen when there's

a lot of water and growth. Exactly. Is it similar? Yeah. It's sort of seasonal. So it really does depend on location. So if you're further north, like the gopher tortoise is further north, they are very seasonal. They do have a winter.

They're disappearing into the burrow during the winter. They're not eating for months and they're just, they're just underground. Is their heart rate like one beat a year? Probably. It's like the lowest metabolism ever. Yeah. That's why they live so long. P.S. not only is next week's episode about sea turtles, aka, sertals, but you'll want

to hold on to your butts, my friends, because in researching, how the fuck do turtles get so old? I came across an ology called bio gerontology. And the best bio gerontologist in the world, Dr. Caleb Finch, is based in L.A. Hot damn yes, we recorded an episode on aging. So stay tuned for that the week after sea turtles. Also the material tortoise shell, which has been banned in many places, was most commonly made from scutes of the hawksbill turtles, which are sea turtles and not tortoises.

So not only is it mean, but it's also factually incorrect a lot of the time. Okay. Back to tortoise shells, which are the spine and the ribs all fused together into a dome that says, don't even try to touch me, you jerks. And so they have ribs that are fused to the bone of their shell. Correct. And then what else is kind of guts they got? Everything is just under that shell.

What other, what kind of, do they have crazy hearts or do they have like, like, is their reproductive system indoor, outdoor, what kind of plummet is happening? So with them, with this is for tortoises, you can flip them over and they're at the bottom, their belly, the bottom part of the shell is called a plastron. So you look at the plastron and that's probably the best way to tell. So a male is going to be, it's going to have a dip and then the female is going to be flat. Okay. So the male just, it's got a concave so he can fit on top of the female.

Oh, got it. Like nesting bowls. Exactly. I shouldn't ask this so early on, but I'm just. I'm ready for this question. I think I know what's coming. Do they have crazy dicks or what? Okay.

I'm so happy. I'm so happy we're talking about. I feel like I saw someone tried to send me a video of like a turtle making love to a shoe and I was like, what, what is that? And I, I don't understand what's happening. What is it? By the way, those noises were from a turtle making love to a crocs shoe in a YouTube video entitled, a turtle makes love to a crocs shoe.

So cursory search returns were almost too copious. Also including other hits such as turtle makes love to a sneaker, turtle sex with a shoe and another involving a brief but impassioned romance with a roller blade. Now if you need a visual for this part of turtle anatomy, oh boy, think of an artichoke art, but long stemmed and stripped of all the leaves, but alive and throbbing. It's a lot. Okay. Yeah.

No, that's because I, I still look at it and I'm like, what, so it's, they're incredible. I mean, okay. All right. Let's start from, from day one, quite often when we're doing research with them, we have to mark them, we have to weigh them, measure them. And so they will, they will expose for us. I think it might just be like just displacement, just kind of, I think they are just uncomfortable and I don't know what's going on.

They're like, I'm uncomfortable. This is awkward. What would help? A boner. So they display as a greeting. Yes. And so, yeah, they're, they're dicks are massive, they can be, they are huge and they have to be big because you know, the shell gets in the way.

It's just hard to access the females, makes it hard. So they need to, they need to be big, but it can be up to like half the size of like their shell. Oh my God. Huge. What? Yeah. Is it all stored inside?

Like, it's just, it's like, so what happens is when it retracts inside the collega, it's just it, it like lays on top of itself. And then they whip it out. And then they have tortoises. So it's different for, it doesn't, it's different for species. So with tortoises, it's so strange. It looks like a flower. That's what I thought.

I was like, is that a pancake? Yeah. Yeah. It's very odd. But that, what, what is, how does that behoove them? I mean, because that's got to be more than just distance. Why a hockey puck on a stem or like a, why a, why a weird inverted head? Mushroom.

Like what is it? Yeah. I'm not sure. I'm honestly not sure how that evolved because it's different for different species. So like with soft shell turtles, they have five lobes. So there's, there's this even more crazy looking and I'm not sure why they need that. Of course I look this up. And yes, it has five lobes with like, let's just say four nozzles.

And the textbook line drawing I saw looked kind of like an abstract outline of an orchid, which is fine. But then you imagine it alive and greenish purple. And you know what? Let's actually, let's not do that. Okay. Let's get just back to the romance of it. Do they meet for life?

Are they friends for a long time or is it just like, I'll see you next season? So we don't, I don't think we really know the answer to that. They do. What we do know is that they have, you know, we always think of tortoises as just being solitary animals and not having friends or talking, you know, not hanging out with anybody. That's really not the case. So we have found as far as like studies with gopher tortoises go, and I'm sure it applies for, you know, other North American tortoises, but they have clicks.

They have like these, yeah, just they have friends. I don't know if, I don't know if we can call them friends, but what's, what we have found is that the females will travel to like hang out with other females. So, yeah, me too. It's, but the interesting part is that, you know, they, they're not just hanging out with any, with any other female, they're visiting the same ones. And so they might travel farther to go see a female that maybe, I don't know, perhaps they connect with them.

I'm not really sure what's going on there, but they, they're, you know, if there's a female directly next door, they're not, they might not like her. I'm not sure what's going on. Okay. I'm not sure what's going on is that these turtles have friends. They're either friends or they're drug dealers, popping by the burrows. And so same with, same with males? Uh, no, I don't think that that's anything that they saw.

So males are visiting females, but they, if there's another male around, they're pretty territorial. So they're probably, they're not really, they're not hanging out with other guys. Who's digging all these burrows? Everybody. Really? Yeah. They all have their own.

And maybe a couple, maybe a summer home and a winter home. So yeah, I, they might have more than one. And they, they might go in their 10, 12 feet, stay there on their own and then come out during the daytime mostly. Yeah. So they spend like probably over 80% of their time underground. Um, they come out to, to meet another tortoise that is hanging out. So I'll see the males will, um, they work so hard.

They're going from burrow to burrow, female to female, um, and they will bob their head and try and get her to come out of her burrow. And this happens all day long. So like horny politicians can this thing. So terrible. Um, yeah, I feel bad for the females cause they're just like, if they don't, if they don't want anything to do with them, like it's just like, they can't come out. They're stuck inside.

But at least they have a good escape. So even if they're out of the bro and they're grazing and they don't want anything to do with the male, they'll just, they'll take off and head back to a burrow and knock them off and then. Is this all year round or are they seasonally horny? So well, I really, I believe that if, if it wasn't cold, it would be all year round. So in South Florida where I'm working right now, they're at least courting all year round. So I don't know.

I don't think we really know beyond that, but they are courting. So I don't know if they're double nesting. We're not really sure what's going on there. So from what I understand, double nesting means having another nest in the same breeding season. Kind of like when you find out that your grandpa has a second family he hid for decades, except it's your mom and it's a bunch of siblings. Also, okay, let's get back to the nomenclature because this still feels a little murky, kind

of like swamp water to me. Okay. Turtle versus tortoise. So turtles are partially aquatic, like they'll go dip into a pond for a bit, come back up. What's their, what's their deal? It depends on what we're talking about. If we want to talk about like box turtles, they are mostly land turtles, but they're not a tortoise.

Oh, shit, man. Oh my God. I'm sorry. I opened the door. Break it down. I don't get it. So what, they're mostly land, but they're a little bit aquatic. Is that the difference or is it just because their legs go out more than they go down?

They're still like near water. They just aren't very good swimmers. Okay. So they'll still hang out in water. So like in shallow areas, but they're not really swimming very well. Like if you were to look at like a slider or a cooter or something like that. Does that disqualify them from being a tortoise? Because sometimes they take a dip.

I think it really comes down to how closely related they are. Oh, that makes some sense. There's some actual like evolutionary lineage. Well, it talks to me a little bit about the evolution of turtles and tortoises because I know that a lot of people are hung up. Did they outlast the dinosaurs? When did the planet develop turtles? When did they split off into sea turtles and tortoises?

Can you walk me through some of that? I can try. Okay. So I, I don't think we really have solid answers for any of that, but the theory, one theory is that the link to turtles was a lizard that I think it's called the euntasaurus. It's a stout lizard, short legs, kind of like a tortoise body, but without the shell. There were burrowers and there was, I guess a little bit slower, just their build. And then from there, there was a turtle that didn't have a shell, but it had like a plastron.

So the plastron is the bottom part of the shell, the belly, but it didn't have a full shell. The benefit of the shell is protection mostly. Yeah. I'm not sure that that's why it evolved. It might have been for digging. That was my other question. Is this like a, because if they make their burrow in the shape of themselves, is it just like a kind of a cool bore into a mountain or is it more like, Hey, I'm withdrawing.

Please do not bother me. We don't know. So it, it could have been that it was for, for burrowing, for digging. And then it sort of just ended up being like a form of protection. So up until a few years ago, we thought turtles went back about 220 million years until a paper came out in 2016 about this 260 million year old lizard in South Africa that developed a shell. Scientists believe for the purpose just of burrowing the protection, just a bonus, kind

of like a shovel that you're like, Oh, hey, look at that. I can also use it as a shield. P.S. The person who discovered the proto turtle fossil was then eight year old Cobus Snimon and also just to hammer this home. So turtles include tortoises and sea turtles and terrapins, which are smallish turtles that live in fresh or brackish water. Although in the UK, turtles mean water pals, tortoises mean land friends. So it's kind of regional.

Where do turtles and tortoises sleep at night? Well, it depends on the species. Okay. Tortoises, like the gopher tortoises are native to the coastal plains of the United States. And so they're using burrows. They're going to be underground. The other North American species, like the desert tortoise out here, they are hiding out under.

Some of them do have short burrows, and they're also hiding out like under rocks or things like that. Why are they so goddamn cute? They, I know. What is it about a turtle, like who doesn't trust a turtle? Do you know what I mean? Okay. I, I will amend that because I did see a picture of an alligator turtle and I was like, oh

my God. Oh my God, I love them. Yeah. This thing is like, this thing has a hell mouth. What's happening with it? It is terrifying. So side note. Okay.

The alligator turtle is not a tortoise, but it is a nightmare. To imagine a stout turtle, the largest ever recorded is said to have tipped the scales at over 400 pounds, and it has three ridges along its back, like giant punk rock studs, and then its mouth. Oh, its mouth, y'all. Okay. A spiky beak that could crush bones and a little wormy doohickey dingle dangle on its tongue that lures a live fish into its mouth.

These things look like if the biggest dude on the football team had anger issues and also a falcon beak and was made out of wet kelp. Have you ever seen, do they have them in Florida? Yeah. Really? But they're like, they're like, like very like Northern Florida. Okay. They're, um, I did a little bit of research for them for the food anthropology episode.

We talked about turtle soup and they talked about like obtaining a lot. And so I looked it up and I was like, oh my God. What is that? It looks like God's dingle berry. Get it out of here. What is it? What is it? But other turtles are so adorable.

They are. Now, how big can turtles get? Well, if we're talking about tortoises, there's the Galapagos tortoise, which is the largest. Oh, is it the largest? I think so. I believe you. It's the Galapagos and then the Aldabra and then the African Sulkata. So like the three largest that are extant that are living today.

While turtles can reach 2000 pounds, the biggest tortoise ever recorded, it seems, was a fellow named Goliath who weighed over 900 pounds, but passed away in 2002. Also dead, Lonesome George, a Pinta Island Galapagos turtle who was the last of his species and the longtime George Clooney of tortoises, eligible but single, Lonesome George, despite trying, sadly, never produced any offspring, passed away in 2012 of natural causes. He was found by his keeper of over 40 years, Fausto Urena Sanchez, who's a park ranger who retired not long after George's death and he said, I feel like I've lost a best friend.

There's a void and there's a sorrow, especially when I see the photos. In my heart, I'm not convinced he's dead, but he's dead. I mean, he was taxidermied and put in a museum, so he's he's pretty dead. Now alive and perhaps the oldest living land animal is a tortoise named Jonathan who has double cataracts, but a pretty good sense of hearing at 187 years old, 187 years old. Yes, you heard that right. Do turtles have ears? What's the deal?

Oh, wow. So they, I wouldn't call them ears. Okay. What is the term for it? They are called? Nubbins. Really, that's incorrect. Can we call it that?

You will call them nubbins. Okay. It's mostly through vibration is how they're hearing or it's internal. So yeah, you're not seeing an ear. If you were to whisper to a turtle how much you liked it, do you think it could hear you? I, I don't know. Okay. All right.

I looked it up and they are not sadly called nubbins, but rather tympanums, which is a disc membrane at the back of the face. Now, could a turtle hear you if you whispered how much you love it? I looked into it and probably. So in one paper that lamented the lack of auditory knowledge of turtles, I did find that what is known is that turtles have a higher hearing threshold than other reptiles with best frequencies heard around 500 Hertz. Now, according to Sadaloff's comprehensive textbook of auto laryngology, it is noticed

that a noise band for whispers begins at 500 Hertz. So yes, whisper your love at your tortoises. If you have tortoises, I know that like with my tortoise, he. Wait a second. Oh God. You have a tortoise? Okay. Oh my God.

Wait, what? This was a huge revelation. So you're a tortoise owner. I am. You're a tortoise Lord. I am. That's exciting. Who is he?

Oh my goodness. Is he a boy or a girl? He's a boy. His name is Banshee. His name is Banshee? Yeah. I named him when I was seven. Oh my gosh.

He's so old. He's. Well, you're so young. How did you obtain him? Oh my gosh. It's a terrible story. So, and I don't encourage it. Okay.

This is why I don't really talk about him. Okay. I'm actually, it's, it's a good, it's. Is it a cautionary tale? Yeah. Did you buy him on the black market? No. Okay.

I did get him from a pet store. Okay. So I. It happens. Yeah. I was seven. I don't really remember. It was probably like around 10.

And I was like, dad really want a tortoise. Like I begged my father for a tortoise. Oh, yeah. And so he was like on board of things because he's like, it seems like he's the animal. Yeah. Just take care of. No big deal. So we went to the pet store.

I picked out a tortoise. It was relatively large, but I mean, I don't want to say large. He was probably like, he was probably like three years old. He was like, like probably like five inches big, which is pretty small. And so he was already, he wasn't like a tiny quarter size tortoise. He was already doing a thing. He probably had like a routine, a personality. He had a thing.

And so you took him home and you're like, I'm a tortoise owner. Were you, did you. I was like, hey, Ma, look what I got. And. Oh my God. She freaked. Really? She started, she was like, what is that?

And she got on the computer and started like looking up like Africans look at a tortoise and she's like, she freaked out of my dad. So these get large. They get huge, huge and they live forever. So she's like doing her research and she like freaked out of my dad and she's like, what are we doing? We just adopted the thing that's going to like outlive our daughter. And so we, they, we just, we did it.

They did it. They wanted to keep him. We all fell in love with him. And he's, he's definitely been a part of the family for, you know, for like much of my life. How big is he? He is probably about 125 pounds. Wait a second.

I feel like he's still growing. I don't know, but I really hope he's not. Wait, how big is that? Like is it the size of a coffee table? Half the size of a coffee table? Yeah. I mean. She looked down at my coffee table, a wooden slab that is 51 inches long.

I measured it later. Okay. I'm looking at your coffee table. Okay. I'm thinking three quarters. Oh my God. That's a huge. No, probably maybe half.

Okay. So we're talking more than half. We're talking like the size of like a cafe table. Yeah. He's a huge tortoise. He's pretty big. Where does he live? In my backyard.

What does he eat? He lives with my parents still. Okay. He, he eats hay. Okay. Grass. He grazes. Yeah.

It's not an easy pet though. So he has a pretty good like space, but he needs a lot of space. And then we have to consider, you know, a burrow and, and enrichment and, you know, how to like keep him happy and healthy and it's a lot of work. And how have things changed when it comes to turtle ownership in the last couple decades? Do you think? Oh my gosh. Um, like there's definitely more information like when we first got him, there wasn't a

whole lot. There wasn't like, it was like, you're fine feeding him fruit and vegetables from your fridge, you know, and it's not, it's not okay. So there's a lot more information for sure. And I do think that people are, you know, understanding as far as like enrichment and how to take care of them, but there's still a lot that's unanswered and we're still figuring out a lot. So do you think that having Banshee, do you think that he informed kind of your interest

in turtles or do you think that he predated it because you already wanted a tortoise? I don't know. I'm not really sure why I wanted him. I don't know why that why it was so intrigued. It made me feel like I needed to get more involved. He's my pet and I kind of feel bad owning him because I look at him and now that I'm working with wildlife, I'm like, man, like this is what you're missing out on. It's sort of difficult to, to think about him not being able to live that kind of life

like a lot of wild tortoises. You mean like getting it on? Yeah. I mean, look at it. I mean, it's just, it happens all day long. Right. It does. Well, maybe it's something like being homeschooled.

Like there are benefits. You don't have to deal with bullies. You don't have to deal with anyone throwing a milk carton at you, but you also miss out on like some weird shit. Yeah. Yeah. I do think that, that they can live a good life in captivity, although I don't think it's ideal necessarily.

So I think that there are good owners and, and people do take, you know, they love their tortoises in the turtles, but it, it's hard. And I think it's like before you go into trying to get a tortoise and deciding to adopt one, there's a couple of things you need to look at. You need to make sure that you have a backup plan. Who's going to take care of this animal when you're gone? Oh my God. Isn't it crazy that when you ride a wheel and you're probably too young to have done

so, you have to include something about Banshee and your will. I do. Yeah. It's terrifying. I don't know. I don't even have kids. Like where is this tortoise going to go? It's very scary.

And even now I'm still, you know, he's still with my parents. I don't have a house. I don't know what's going to happen. And so that's where before you get an animal like this, you really have to be, you know, know where you are. Are you settled? Are you settled down? And yeah, it's, and then, you know, what's going to happen when you're gone?

To Google it. Yeah. Get into it. Also know where it's coming from because the, you know, the pet shade can be pretty hard on wildlife. It's not good for wildlife. The notion is, you know, definitely know where, where the animal's coming from. Right.

You hear those stories about dudes that like get through TSA with parakeets in their pants. Oh my gosh. It's so terrible. I know, but it's also like, man, you just got to be a better way to make a living. I'm no kidding. And putting like snakes in your pants. I'm a snag. And so when it comes to age and turtles and tortoises, because obviously Banshee is going

to live to be one million years old. But why do they live so long? I mean, I read, I saw this thing online about a turtle and her one, she was 140 years old and her newborn baby turtle. And I was like, they just keep going. Can you imagine being 140 years old and you're like, here's my infant son. Like what's happening with them? Yeah.

So that falls into, they have a really slow metabolism. So if you think about like a hummingbird that's going a thousand miles a minute, I don't really know how fast they go, but a hummingbird probably isn't going to last more than a couple of years. Yeah. Same with little mice. Exactly. They were really high metabolism.

I think that the president of the United States uses this argument to avoid exercise because he thinks that you only have a certain number of heartbeats per lifetime. Yeah. No, that's not okay. Yeah. I think. State continue doing your exercise. Yeah.

I think he thinks that you have a finite number and that's like why he's not super active. I'm going to fact check this just so that nobody just thinks that I'm shit talking. This is going to be, this is just going to be both sort of a fact. Other than golf, he considers exercise misguided, arguing that a person like a battery is born with a finite amount of energy. Okay. All right. So moving on.

Why are they so damn slow? Their shell. Okay. So the shell just doesn't give them, it's heavy in the way. And so they, yeah, they really can't, I really don't think that they'd be so slow if they didn't have the shell. I mean, I've seen, there are tortoises that I, they're slow, but really like they can be fast when they want to.

They can book it? They can book it. Yeah. I posted a video of a gopher tortoise on Twitter. This was like, I don't know, probably a year ago. And she saw me on a trail and she got freaked out, but her burrow was actually closer to me. So she booked it towards me.

Oh. But yeah, everybody was intrigued. They were like, I had no idea a tortoise could run like that. And then what's the biggest myth about turtles that you're just over? Oh my gosh. They're just the old man, maybe the old man. Did they look like grandpas? Yeah.

Um, but... Do they have different personalities, turtle to turtle? They do. They really do. Oh my gosh. Even in the field with wild animals when I get to work out in the field sites with them, I feel like I can, I can definitely identify some of them that I see that I come across like frequently just based on their personality.

Really? So we have, let me tell you about this girl. She's my favorite tortoise. Her name is Grumpy Gertrude. Oh my God, I love her already. So we, when I would enter the field site, um, my, my advisor was the one who introduced me to her, but she would beat her burrows like right at the entrance of the field site. And so when you come in, she would just like, she would defend her territory.

So anybody that came in, she'd come out bobbing her head, which is a sign of defense and, and just trying like she was away. And so she's just very territorial. She's really aggressive. I saw a video of her attacking my camera, um, but then there's other moments too where she's very, um, very tolerant. So I was at a different burrow and she came out. I was working with another tortoise.

She just, I saw me. So she came out of her burrow. She just wanted to check stuff out. She wasn't defensive because it wasn't her territory. So she came out and she like walked all over my gear. She's just, she's very curious. She's also very defensive. Um, and then there's others that are really shy.

You'll handle them or take them out. Um, and they're not, they will not come out of their shell. So yeah, there's, there's definitely personality. And can they, they can get all the way in them so that they're just like, I'm a rock bitch. Yeah. Yeah. But some like sea turtles can't do that.

Correct. Okay. But all other turtles and tortoises can be completely like closed, gone fishing. So she says that saw shell turtles, which are not tortoises or turtles, but are aquatic turtles who look kind of like a rubbery pancake made out of mud. They'll also flippity flop about without tucking in their legs. Now, getting back to tortoises though. And what is your field work usually involved?

Like can you take me through like a really quick like day in the life of Amanda Hips? I love my field work. So it's hot and muggy. It's Florida, South Florida scrub habitat. So there's no shade. Um, I, it depends on what I'm doing. So if I'm looking for insects, I am surveying burrows. So I usually go in with a camera scope and I can get a view of like what's inside the

burrow can measure it in that sense too. Sometimes I see stuff with a camera. Sometimes I'll see snakes. Sometimes I'll see frogs. It's really cool. And then from there, I'll like try and look for insects. So I'm like taking a big two meter scoop and like scooping out sand and sifting through it.

Catching flies that are flying around. Um, at night I'll go out with a black light and black light the burrows to look for there's specific like burrow moss that live in there. They also eat shit. Yes. But you're trying to figure out, okay, with these gopher tortoises, who is eating their shit? We have to find out how many species are, would be affected if these gopher tortoises

were wiped. Exactly. Right. And why are they getting so wiped? Cars? Cars, uh, habitat loss. Yeah. Yeah.

We're making too many malls. Yeah. Yeah. They're just, they're being pushed out. So it's really sad to see, especially in South Florida where there's just really high pressure to develop. Um, and so they're just constantly being relocated the tortoises. And so they're getting relocated, but a lot of the other animals are getting left behind.

Oh no. Uh. So that's, so that research is important to protect them. What kind of measures are being taken right now to protect gopher tortoises? Well, it's no longer, I mean, in the past you could basically just build on top of them. Oh. Okay, cover the burrows and put it on.

No. Yeah. Like a mausoleum. Yeah. That's so awful. Yeah. How long would they be living under there? Probably months.

That's horrible. Because they can deal with like very little oxygen. Oh no. And so yeah, they would just be underground. So we're not doing that anymore. We're not doing that anymore. So you do have to get a permit if you want to build and there's tortoises on the land. And so now they get relocated.

There's a lot that goes into it though. So they have to get relocated, but you can't just dump them at, you know, another site. They're so specific to like the area. Like imagine being, you know, 60 years old and living in the same area and then getting relocated. And so they, you know, if they're just put somewhere else, they're going to continue looking for like their home. And so they, yeah, so you really can't just like take them somewhere else.

And so it has to, there has to be what's called a soft release. And so they set up like pens and they have to basically keep them in these pens for one or two years and they're, yeah, they have to like kind of just get acquainted to their new home. And then start like kind of give up and be like, oh, I guess I live here now. Maybe this is it. Yeah. So then those pens, like eventually they can be taken out and they can be able to like

go out into the tortoise population. But yeah. Oh, so it's a process. It's not, yeah. It's not easy. Yeah. Oh, are there any movies about turtles or tortoises that you love or hate? You know, Ninja Turtles is like, they're probably like the only one that really comes

to mind. Their burrows are sewers. Yeah. I didn't realize how accurate that was. It's so true. Because those really are long tunnels. They are. Who knew that was factual?

The pizza's factual, right? Definitely. Yeah. Okay. The backflip's factual. Um, okay. Patreon questions. Yes.

You ready for some lightning round? I am. I am ready for this. People love turtles too. I'm excited. People love turtles. I like turtles. So before we get to the Patreon questions, however, quick break to tell you about a sponsor

of the show who makes it possible for us to churn these out every week and also a word about this week's charity who is getting a donation from the allergies community. So Amanda chose the nonprofit alongside wildlifefoundation.org, which is a 501c3 nonprofit supported by a grassroots network of people just passionate about wildlife conservation. And they do research and outreach. They promote science-based solutions for living alongside wildlife in perpetuity. They even raise money to give grants to scientists who can continue doing important work with wildlife.

So they rock. Thanks for picking them. Um, okay. It's time to call a listener. Let's do that. All right. Back to the show. Let's have those Patreon questions.

Please tell me we got a penis question. I know we already talked about it. Oh, of course we did. Okay. Leah Chavez wants to know straight up, how did you get your job? I'm obsessed with turtles and tortoises and I would love to do something with them either professionally or volunteering. How can you get up in that turtle world?

Okay. Well, I, you know, it's hard to say. Um, I don't even know how I got this one. Um, you're like, how did I get here? I love it. I know. It just, it sort of just happened again. Um, how to get involved.

So you can look, you know, for whatever is in your area, like, you know, figure out what species are around you and see if you can volunteer. Um, there's, you know, if you're out west, like here, there's the Desert Tortoise Council and, um, there's the go for tortoise council in the east. Um, you got a network turtle people. There's turtle Twitter. There's definitely. There's hashtags.

Oh my gosh. Make turtle friends. It's so true. And I think that's, you know, that is really how ultimately I ended up where I am. It's just connections and meeting people with similar interests. Make turtle friends. There's turtle clubs. Are you kidding?

For sure. Every city has a turtle and tortoise club. I should join one. Why am I not in a tortoise club? I don't know. I'm hanging with those nerds. I looked up the local, I looked up the local turtle and tortoise club when I was looking for a good coloniologist.

Oh my gosh. So I turtle people are out there and they're just in a burrow in a shell. You just got to get to know them. Side note, Leah Chavez, I found your address through Patreon and I looked up what's local to you and I found the Bay Area Amphibian and Reptile Society, which is having a meeting on January 25th. So for more info, you can see b-a-a-r-s.org. Anything else?

Google your city plus herpetological society. See what comes up. Make some turtle buds. Maybe wear an ology's shirt there and find your people. Lacey K. Shewer wants to know, do turtles that hatch from the same nest hang out with each other for a while? And if so, how old are they when they go off on their own? Like do they hang for a while?

Do they learn behavior from other turtles or is it just like I'm out? They're out. So when I was monitoring nests in North Florida, they would hatch under their shell and let them go and they would just start digging a burrow or eating like the second they come out. They're just like they're off and they're just living their life. So yeah, they're not hanging out with mom. They're not hanging out with each other.

They're just, they're eating and they're trying to find a place to hide. Lacey K. God, if only all babies were like that. Lacey K. I know, right? Then I would have kids. Lacey K. I know. You just poop out a dozen of them and you're like, good luck. Lacey K. All right, see ya. Lacey K. Yeah, donate each other.

Jonathan C. asks, have turtles been on earth longer than humans? That answer is... Lacey K. Hell yeah. Lacey K. Hell yeah. Lacey K. They're on earth much longer. Lacey K. Okay. So turtles, proto-turtles, evolved 260 million years ago and humans signed to say between 300,000 and 195,000 years ago.

It's being debated. Regardless, turtles win and we suck. Lacey K. Austin H. wants to know, how long does the average turtle live and what are the most common causes of morbidity? Lacey K. Oh, well, okay. So tortoises will on average live probably about 80 to 150 years depending on the species. Go for tortoises. It's kind of average at 60, but the oldest one that we know of is in captivity, he's

like 96. We don't really know how go for tortoises truly get, but yeah, probably between 60 and 150. The second question was... Lacey K. Say die of what? Boredom? Lacey K. Yeah. Lacey K. What are they dying of?

I mean, cars? Lacey K. Yeah, mostly cars. So yeah, cars are a really big problem, a really big problem for all turtles and tortoises. So... Lacey K. What do you do when you see a turtle in the road? Have you risked life and limb to get a turtle out of the road? Lacey K. No. I don't ever recommend risking your life, but you can help them cross.

So just make sure it's safe for you to do so. I do help them cross all the time, but I would not lunge in front of a car, to be honest. I do like my life. It's so common in Florida to see them crossing all year round. I will help them cross. It's always a good idea to help them cross in the same direction that they're going, because they're very stubborn creatures and they know where they want to go. So don't try to convince them otherwise.

Make sure... Don't try to convince them to go somewhere else. Just move them in the direction that they're going. But it's pretty easy to move most turtles and tortoises. You can just grab them by the sides and help them cross. Snapping turtles are a little different. You have to be careful. Lacey K. Right.

Where are snapping turtles? Such dicks. Lacey K. They're just... Yeah. They're just angry. Yeah. Lacey K. Like, maybe something in their disposition just evolved to be like, listen, I'm real bitchy. I'm real defensive.

Lacey K. Yeah. Lacey K. Those of us with these beaks. Lacey K. I can use it. Lacey K. Yeah. I'm going to use it. Lacey K. Yeah. I would if I had that. Lacey K. I probably would too.

No one fucks with someone with a beak like that. Lacey K. That's no true. Lacey K. And so you can move them, but cars are a big one. Lacey K. Yes. Lacey K. Okay. All right. So Morgan Sweet wants to know, other than limit the use of off-road vehicles, what are some of the ways that we can help with tortoise conservation while still enjoying our public

lands? Lacey K. Well, a lot of it is supporting legislature and voting. Lacey K. Oh. Kelly Brockington notes that Cuff and Link from Rocky, which is now a creed franchise, are, she thinks, red stripe racers. How long can these guys live? Because apparently the same turtles that were in the original Rocky in 77 were in creed in 2017.

Lacey K. What? Kelly Brockington What? Lacey K. I don't know. There were two turtles that were in Rocky. Lacey K. Oh. I'm thinking, I think she's maybe thinking red-eared sliders. Kelly Brockington Red-eared sliders. Lacey K. Oh.

Red stripe racers. That's so close. I thought that was a different species. So yeah, these same turtles were in two franchises. So I guess they can live for a while. Kelly Brockington They're famous. Yeah. Lacey K. Yeah.

Kelly Brockington They're very old. Lacey K. I wonder if they're the most famous turtles. Kelly Brockington I don't know. I would love to know. Lacey K. Yeah. I'll look into it. Kelly Brockington Okay. Lacey K. These are the exotic animals I was telling you about.

These are my friends, Cuff and Link. Kelly Brockington So these turtles, Terrapins, if you will, I know, are alive and 44 years old. They appear to be aging very nicely, or they've just had impeccable work done. JCW says, why are there two distinct lineages of turtles, the snake necks and the non-snake neck turtles? Lacey K. Oh, I think he's thinking the side necks. So there's two lineages.

There's the cryptodera, which is the hidden necks. So those are the turtles and tortoises that can pull their neck inside of their shell. And then there's the side necks, and that's pleurodera. I hope I'm saying this right. Kelly Brockington Pleurodera. And they just, they can, instead of pulling their neck inside, they're the side necks. So they just kind of like turn their head to the side. JCW Oh.

Yeah. Lacey K. So they just put it under a shelf? JCW Yes. That's exactly it. Lacey K. Okay. I didn't know that. They tuck? JCW Yeah.

They tuck. Lacey K. Interesting. JCW Yeah. As far as like evolving, I'm not sure. I'm not sure why. Lacey K. Side neck, side note. So I looked into this, and apparently there's still a lot of mystery about the side neck turtles, but some research came out just this past summer that may link the drift of continents

to their distribution and evolution, and may have led to sea turtles. I mean, flipper feet, we got shovel hands, retractable heads, crazy dongs, turtles, man, live in the life. Rick Asher says, I've seen a lot of videos when someone thinks they're helping a turtle by tossing it in the water when it's actually a tortoise. Lacey K. Oh my gosh, Ali, this happens all the time. JCW Oh no. What's an easy way to tell the difference, and should we just leave them alone?

They probably know what they're doing unless it's crossing the street. In that case, I'll definitely help a brother out. But Rick Asher, okay. This is a depressing question, but we should answer it. Lacey K. Yeah. This is a question we should talk about. It's a good question. Yeah.

So this happens with gopher tortoises all the time, and I can probably imagine tortoises here, desert tortoises, but yeah, people confuse them. The gopher tortoises, I'm sorry, they will sometimes live on the beach. They have like, they live in the dunes, they have burrows there. And so sometimes they'll be taken to walk down the beach, and people confuse them for sea turtles. And they'll try, and they'll think that it needs saving, and they'll put it in the ocean.

And this happens very frequently. So now, a lot of beaches will have signs where it says, like, please don't touch the tortoises. Like, just let me... JCW Oh no. Lacey K. First of all, we shouldn't be touching them, period, unless they need help crossing the road. They don't really need help. Turtles, especially if it's a sea turtle, you should probably be calling somebody, you

shouldn't be touching it. So if you see something that needs help, I would call, you know, FWC, your local DNR, or something. JCW Got it. Lacey K. P.S. That's the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission, or the Department of Natural Resources. Now, if you're staring down the barrel of a turtle, how do you tell if it's a turtle or a tortoise?

Lacey K. So if you're looking at the limbs, that's probably the best way to tell. So tortoises have these, like, stout muscular limbs. They don't have webbed feet, so they're kind of just more, like, built for digging. Turtles, you'll see, like, their limbs have, like, webbed feet and they can swim. JCW So one's stumpy, one's webby. Lacey K. Yeah. JCW So a little elephant legs versus kind of webby. Lacey K. Yeah.

JCW Webby duck leg, lip. Lacey K. Yeah, exactly. JCW I'm a scientist. Let's see. Raquel Nuno wanted to know, can they come out of their shell? Lacey K. See, yeah, these questions are so common. JCW Yeah. Lacey K. That's okay.

No. Yeah, no, they can't. Their whole, everything's in that shell, they're attached to their shell, their spine is attached to the shell, their ribs are attached to the shell. JCW So that question was from planetary scientist and selenologist Raquel Nuno, who taught us all about the moon. And this is another wonderful reminder that even the smartest scientists keep asking questions. And Amanda says she gets at questions so much because of cartoons.

And I just did a Google image search for a cartoon turtle leaving shell. So many little nude turtles. But the reality of a turtle leaving its shell would be like us just taking out our spines and hanging them up on a co-wrack at the end of the day. It's nightmare town. Jen Wu says, from my husband, who loves turtles, which turtle is the best? Lacey K. Oh. JCW Hmm.

Lacey K. I mean, this is going to be controversial. JCW Yeah. This is like, this is a question I don't even want to get involved in. Lacey K. Right. Enemies will be made. Lacey K. They will. JCW Alliances will be forged. Lacey K. They will.

Oh my gosh. The truth is I really don't have a favorite. JCW I feel like my favorite is like the last one that I've seen. I feel like every time I see one, I'm just like, you're my favorite and then I'll see the next one. Lacey K. Grumpy Gertrude. JCW Grumpy Gertrude is definitely without doubt like my number one. Lacey K. Okay.

I love that right now. Somewhere across the country, there is a tortoise named Gertrude who's beloved. Sarah Crocker wants to know, sexually mature at what age? JCW Oh, this is a good question. So this also depends on species and location. So in South Florida, go for tortoises will mature as soon as like seven because they're not having to hibernate, they're not having to, you know, stow away for the winter. So they're eating all year round.

They're growing a lot faster and so they're maturing by age seven. In the northern part of their range, like Alabama, they can take like 20 years to reach sexual maturity. Lacey K. Oh my gosh. JCW So a lot of it is just dependent on location. Lacey K. God, that's like sharks. So much puberty. JCW Yes.

Lacey K. For decades. JCW Oh my gosh. It's true. Lacey K. Slight, slight hairy mustache and bad skin and uncontrollable boners for decades. Them and sharks. They're like, this sucks, man. Christopher Enber wants to know, would you consider the tortoise to be the introvert of the animal kingdom?

JCW I don't think so. Lacey K. Really? JCW I mean, maybe, but working with go for tortoises, I really thought differently about it. I know that they have these really highly social, like high social structures and I don't know if I believe that anymore. JCW Okay. I think that's smart.

I think that's good to know. They're like, no, I just don't want to talk to you maybe. Talk to their turtles though. Jennifer Boos, can they really breathe out of their butts? If so, please give all the details. Lacey K. Oh wow. So this is not something that's usually brought up with tortoises, but yeah, some aquatic turtles can have oxygen exchange through their butts.

So if we want to call that breathing, yeah, I guess that's the case, but it's not happening like breathing through your mouth. It's just oxygen exchange through tissues. Lacey K. Does that help them if they're diving or if they're in the mud or something? Jennifer Boos Yeah. Lacey K. Okay. Just stick your butt up. Okay.

Jennifer Boos It's not a snorkel. It's not a snorkel. Lacey K. A butt snorkel. Jennifer Boos Rich Gross says a long time ago, I was at a fair where they had a giant turtle and allowed people to ride it. Lacey K. Oh. Jennifer Boos How much were they hurting the turtle? Lacey K. Yeah, it's not good.

Jennifer Boos Okay. Tegan Wall. I saved the Patreon question that was perhaps the most important for last. This is Dr. Tegan Wall says, I've had my turtle, yurtle, for almost 25 years. Lacey K. Yurtle. Jennifer Boos I know. I've had this turtle for 25 years. Does she love me?

Can she love me? Lacey K. 100%. Jennifer Boos Oh, that's amazing. Lacey K. Okay. So the truth is that, is that the whole question? Jennifer Boos That's the whole question. Lacey K. Oh my gosh. I love it.

You know, okay. Tegan. Jennifer Boos Yes. Lacey K. I would like to believe that my tortoise loves me. Jennifer Boos Uh-huh. Lacey K. I don't know if he does. Jennifer Boos I know that he loves to eat, and so when I come out with food, he loves me.

Lacey K. I think they love you. I mean, if they can have buddies. Jennifer Boos I do, and I do think that my tortoise recognizes individuals. He knows me, and he knows my mom, because we're the ones that feed him. And so he does come to us. He's not going to like be quite as, you know, active, like, or like wanting to go towards a stranger. Lacey K. Yeah.

They know who you are. Jennifer Boos Yeah. I think he definitely recognizes. Lacey K. Of course. Jennifer Boos Ebrown wants to know, how does their longevity impact their perception of time, and is that why they seem so chill all the time? Lacey K. I don't know. It's something that we've never looked at, but that is a really interesting question.

Jennifer Boos I don't know if I knew that I didn't have to hurry up so much, and that I could have children at 150 years old. Lacey K. This would be so good for me. Jennifer Boos Oh, God. Lacey K. I'm such a late bloomer that I find that. Jennifer Boos I mean, there's like, you wouldn't, you could take your time on everything. Lacey K. Yeah. Jennifer Boos Are you kidding?

Lacey K. I would. I'm not, yeah. I mean, I have. Jennifer Boos No. Lacey K. You're doing stuff. You're getting, you're getting degrees. You're saving go for tortoises. Jennifer Boos Yeah.

I just, I'm just doing it a little bit later, but I, I'm happy with it. I'm happy. Lacey K. I mean, it seems like you've fallen into exactly where you want to be, you know. Jennifer Boos Yes. I've never been, I've never been happier with my career choice. Lacey K. She loves turtles so much. She can't even bear to shit-talk them. This, this is to studentological loyalty.

Jennifer Boos What is the worst thing about your job though, or about turtles? Do you have any shit you want to talk about turtles? Lacey K. Yeah. Well, no. Jennifer Boos Okay. Lacey K. We can't go there, Ali. Jennifer Boos What about your job? Lacey K. I, as far as my job, I think that we're in a time right now where there's so

much urban development and habitat loss. It's really hard to see all the habitat loss. There's been a couple of times where we've found tortoises at our field sites that have been hit by cars. And so I think those are probably my worst days. Jennifer Boos God, I bet. Lacey K. Yeah. Jennifer Boos Ugh.

And the, the, do you have burials for them? That's a stupid question, but I'm asking anyway. What do you do when you see a dead tortoise? Lacey K. So, I, I actually collect them to, what I'm doing right now is looking for what's called the, it's called a gopher tortoise shell moth. Jennifer Boos Okay. Lacey K. And so these moths will feed specifically on dead gopher tortoise shells. Jennifer Boos Oh my God.

Lacey K. Yeah. Jennifer Boos Find your niche. Lacey K. Exactly. Jennifer Boos Bloom or your planet, man. Lacey K. So, yeah, I'm basically taking, I, I do like take the, the carcass and I use the shell to put out into my field site and kind of just sit and wait for moths to, to appear, but it hasn't happened yet. Jennifer Boos Do tortoises mourn other tortoises?

Do they have big brains, tiny brains? Lacey K. I, they're pretty, they're pretty small. Jennifer Boos Yeah. Lacey K. They have very small brains. I don't, I don't know. I, there hasn't been any, anything recorded where, where tortoises are mourning. So I'm not really sure. But I do wonder, I mean, it does make me wonder because they do have these structure, these

social structures. And so I do wonder like who is missing you? Who's like trying to go to your burrow now and you're not coming back. Jennifer Boos I know. Oh, I wonder if they ever try to scoot them into their burrow like a mausoleum. Lacey K. I don't know. Jennifer Boos You know what I mean? Lacey K. Yeah.

Jennifer Boos Oh, final resting spot. Turtle death. Who knew? I'm gutted. What is your favorite thing about turtles or your job? Lacey K. Oh, um, my favorite thing about my job is the people that I've met. Um, even just like being on social media and just kind of connecting with people that have similar interests, even if they're not in the same field has been so much fun.

I think that's definitely like my favorite part. Yeah. Jennifer Boos Turtle Twitter. Lacey K. Turtle Twitter. Jennifer Boos Get into it. Lacey K. Yes. Jennifer Boos I feel like if you, if turtles give you butterflies, you've got to get up and find your people.

You've got to find your turtle people. Lacey K. Yeah. And I think, I mean, it took me so long to get to this point to really be like, oh, wow, this is where I'm supposed to be. Jennifer Boos But it's about turtles. So it's supposed to take you forever. Lacey K. Yeah, exactly. Jennifer Boos You're not studying hairs.

You know what I mean? Lacey K. So true. Jennifer Boos Do you hate the tortoise in the hair? Are you likely? Off the turtles. Lacey K. Yeah. I mean. Jennifer Boos Even though the tortoise ends up being the

protagonist. Lacey K. Tortoise wins. Jennifer Boos I mean, I don't really hate it. It's fine. It's just a fable. I did get a video once of a, it was on a camera trap of a Continental rabbit that was living with a tortoise and a girl. And I have so many videos of him just like chilling and hanging out.

And there was like one where he came over and the bunny kind of like, kind of like got up into like the tortoise's face just to like sniff it. It was so cute. Lacey K. Were they friends? Jennifer Boos I don't think the tortoise gave two shits about the rabbit. Lacey K. How long did they kick it together? Jennifer Boos He was, he was hanging out for like probably

two or three weeks. Lacey K. Oh my God. Jennifer Boos Oh my God. Has that gone viral on the Dodo yet or something? Like jeez Louise. Jennifer Boos I should like post it. I mean, I think I posted it on Instagram, but. Lacey K. It's like the best wrapped beef buried ever.

Like actually burrowed. Jennifer Boos I very highly recommend following Amanda on Instagram and or Twitter. You got videos of tortoises, field work photos, and also follow her hashtag ShitBugs for updates on the dung gobbling burrow mates she's studying, as well as videos about grumpy Gertrude, tortoises and hairs just kicking it. Lacey K. And where can people find you? Jennifer Boos I'm on Instagram as biophilia Amanda and Twitter.

Lacey K. Nice. Consistent handles. Jennifer Boos Yes. Lacey K. Dope, man. Makes things so easy. Jennifer Boos It does. Lacey K. Try to get the same handles, man. Jennifer Boos Yeah.

Lacey K. You got to get in early, even if you got to put an underscore. Jennifer Boos Oh my God. I change mine so many times too, but I'm set. Like this is, this is it. Lacey K. Well, thank you for all of the work that you do protecting the turtles. Jennifer Boos Oh my gosh. I love it. Thank you for having me.

Lacey K. Ask smart people your stupidest questions because they didn't know at one point either. And also they love answering it. The links are in the show notes and see alleyward.com slash oligies for more links. Patreon.com slash oligies is where you can go to support the show and submit questions for the upcoming episodes. oligiesmerch.com has shirts and hats and totes and other merch. Thank you, Shannon Feltas and Body Judge for that. The oligies Facebook group is a collection of wonderfuls thanks to Eagle Eye Admins,

Hannah Lippo and Aaron Talbert. Happy birthday Ernie from your old buddy Ward. We've known each other since we were four years old. Me and Aaron Talbert. Happy birthday. I love you. The theme song was written by Nick Thorburn of the band Islands. Thank you to assistant editor and host of the mental health podcast, my good bad brain,

Jared Sleeper. And as always, huge thanks to editor Stephen Ray Morris, who does a shell of a job. He hosts the podcasts, the per cast and see Jurassic right about dinos and cats. Now, if you listen to the end of the episode, you know, I tell you a secret. This week, my secret is that if my apartment is messy, I get really weirdly bummed out and kind of cranky and it always takes me like a week or two to realize what the problem is. And then I'm like, I just have to tidy up my home. So as soon as this episode is up, I will be doing some laundry and maybe washing some floors.

But in the end, I'll be in a better mood because of it. Also, have you ever had cheese tea? With cream cheese and whipped cream on top and it's so good. I drank it twice. No, I drank it three times this week. At first I was like, cheese tea, get out of here. And then I tried it and I was like, oh my God, it's amazing. So look it up.

Find some locally. Report back. Cheese tea. Okay. Also next week, sea turtles. Oh boy. It's a whole other world under the ocean and then aging. Okay.

Bye bye. I'm a rock bitch.