Ologies with Alie Ward - Teuthology (SQUIDS) with Sarah McAnulty

Episode Date: February 20, 2018

Squids. Cuttlefish. Octopusseseses. The world's most impassioned squid nerd, Sarah McAnulty, gets locked in a basement with Alie to talk about cephalopods, alien DNA, camouflage, invisibility cloaks, why cute things make us insane, terrible mating strategies, cute and clever ones and why she is so charmed by squid. Also addressed: Philly accents and the Kraken.Follow @SarahMackAttack on Twitter or InstagramSupport Ologies on Patreon for as little as a buck a monthOlogiesMerch.com has hats, shirts, pins, totes!Follow @Ologies on Twitter and InstagramFollow @AlieWard on Twitter and InstagramEditing by Steven Ray MorrisMusic by Nick Thorburn

Hey, oligites. What's up? It's me. It's Ali Ward. Here we are. It's finally time. It's the moment you've been waiting months for a cephalopod cast. Oh Okay, tuthology comes from tooth, which is Greek for cuttlefish or squid What's a cephalopod mean? Well that comes from cephala, which means head and pod feet Because they essentially look like a giant long brain with a mop of feet glued on so this week's episode is all about squid And squids and squids and octopuses and cuttlefish. They are adorable shapeshifting possibly alien Creepy alive cartoons. I love them even more after recording this

I would hug every one of them if I could but first I want to say thank you and give you all an Audio hug to everyone who's bought merch at oligiesmerch.com There's pins and hats and all kinds of things and totes and to all of the folks supporting for even 25 cents an episode on patreon.com Slash oligies that gets you some exclusive content. It gets my undying affection and also your questions Go to the front of the line to the oligists. Thank you for supporting the show Also, you can give back for no money zero dollars just a little bit of effort when you rate and review and subscribe That keeps oligies up in the iTunes chart so more people see it and say what's this shit and then listen to it

And then there are more of us out there to delight in primate butts and laughter science, etc So I read each and every review every week. It's I creep on them so hard They mean so much to me just the fact that I get to make this podcast and you guys listen is like Peej CWS says fantastic podcast. I recently had a dream that I was an uber driver rolling around I'm listening to oligies. I stopped an alley ward got in my car I got really embarrassed and her show was streaming while she was in the car So I tried to slightly change it without her noticing. I just want to let Peej know that

What if we actually did that in another astral plane anyway, thanks for the reviews, okay back to squid who squid They look like swimming dicks with parrot beaks and they are alive invisibility cloaks But are they aliens? How do they change color? Can they kill you? What's a crack in I very excitedly met with a squid Scientist that I've been fawning over on Twitter for months after a post of hers about squid went viral What happened was multiple jabroni's tried to tell her that her squid or cuttlefish and she's like I'm a squid scientist They're squid so I've become a huge fan girl of her general knowledge and passion about squids so much That I took a train two hours from New York to Connecticut and back in one day just to spend an hour with her

She picked me up from the train station and told me I'd recognize her car because it had her Twitter handle and email plus The words ever wonder about squid ask me anything octopus do written on the back window Her license plate reads simply Squids it's 39 degrees. I can see my breath I'm outside New Haven, Connecticut first time in Connecticut. I'm looking for a squid car. I'm so nervous I've been trying to be her friend so hardcore for months online. What if she doesn't like me? Oh my gosh

I think I see her. This is so exciting Squids oh my gosh. Hi. Oh my gosh. It's me. Hi. I'm getting in your car. Oh my gosh We drove around New Haven a little she's a PhD candidate and scientist at University of Connecticut and Found a library basement to record in and we talked about iridescent bioluminescent sea creatures and crafty cuttlefish cross-dressing Octopus brains. They're shaped so weird again alien DNA weird dating stories both human our own and Cephalopod related and what happens when you blindfold a cuttlefish?

So please get ready to become obsessed with quite possibly the world's most charming and impassioned squid nerd deutologist Sarah McEnolty Do you know that I for some reason every time I want to say your name I want to say McNulty most people do yeah, why do I do that? I don't know phonetics Irish phonetics make no sense Okay, you are a Yes, so glad you know that word. Yeah TEU

Theologist do people do you ever say that would you ever drop that cash? No one knows what I'm talking about One time someone asked me if I was a toothologist and again I got very excited, but it rarely comes up normally I just say I'm a squid biologist, okay Yeah, you're kind of boned by phonetics because it sounds like you're an orthodontist Yeah, it does sound like you study teeth and squid don't even have teeth. So the poor things they just have beaks So yeah, we're hose there. So you are a squid scientist. Yes How long you've been into squid?

So I have been interested in squids. I was a little kid But I started actually working with cephalopods when I was in right after my sophomore year of college. I found out about this lab in Woods Hole in Massachusetts that was working on Cuttlefish camouflage and I thought that was like so insane that you could have a career working on the coolest animal there is So I like basically followed the scientist around to places that I knew who was giving talks and I was like hi I'm Sarah Please let me work for you and he was like you're too young and I was like Please though. I would really like to work for you

Sarah sent the lab a very passionate letter where she basically said look if you don't hire me this year You're just gonna hear from me next year and the year after that and he was like, okay crazy And gave me an internship Sarah has worked with cephalopods ever since Octopuses octopi more on that later in college and now she works with little critters called bobtail squid Which are an evolutionary in between? Octopuses and Cuttlefish bobtail squid are little they have a shorter rounded mantle and they can be these beautiful Iridescent colors. They're also called dumpling squid Or stubby squid because of their shape and the general consensus is that they are the cutest things on planet Earth

So I'm sorry sloths. You've been replaced super side note If you look at a photo of a bobtail squid and simply cannot even or you need to scream or punch yourself in the face This is something that Yale researchers have dubbed cute aggression one hypothesis. Is it the brain? Simply cannot deal with that much positive stimulation at once and turn some of it into the opposite Just some negative emotion which for most people ends up being aggression or screaming or squealing or slapping themselves so Google bobtail squid and then Barrier face into a couch cushion and shriek with abandon. It's fine. It's okay. It'll be helpful What's the timeline between octopus and squid and bobtail squid? I know that's a stupid stupid question

But like what did one come first and then another kid what happened? So okay first we had like ammonites and those are those things that look like nautiluses those like spiral shells I think a common ancestor of those we had bellenites and those are basically squid with shells like long skinny Cone shells and then they brought the shells Inside their body instead of outside their body and then they most of them lost the shells completely and some keep them inside so there's like Squid like the kind of squid that you eat in calamari still has something called a pen, which is like a clear bendy version of a shell and

Cuttlefish have cuttle bones, which are these Actually birds eat them for like calcium, but they had their little buoyancy devices right in the back of the animal And then our bobtail squid have absolutely nothing at all But yeah, so octopuses diverge from squid and cuttlefish a long time ago I don't remember exactly how many millions of years ago So they're off on their own branch with vampire squid, which are not either they're more like Octopuses than squid What is a vampire squid?

Vampire squid are dope. So vampire squid are these deep sea cephalopods That look kind of like a dumbo octopus if you've seen those but they're dark maroon red And at the each at the end of each of their arms, they have a little organ that has Bioluminescence so each of the tips of their arms are bioluminescent and then they have these big spots on either side of their head They're bioluminescent to give the impression that they have huge eyes to make other animals think they're way bigger than they actually are Okay, I just look these things up. Oh boy They're this deep crimson color and their arms are more webbed kind of like

And a bloody umbrella with a head and their Latin genus and species name is Viar Vampire to this in Frenalis and it translates to something that sounds like a title to a grindhouse film Vampire squid from hell. That is what their Latin name means vampire squid from hell Do they have knives and lengthy rap sheets of criminal offenses? Not so much and they're nonviolent little animals that basically just eat dead shit that falls from above Because they live so deep that when things die above it just sinks down. That's called marine snow and they have oh god, which is um Quite a euphemism who it's disgusting

It's just like dead stuff and they're just called vampire squids because they're maroon They look really scary So like each of their arms has these little spikes sticking off of it So they look really intimidating you would think I wouldn't want to Run into one of those but they're just eating dead stuff and floating around so it's not too bad I think it's more they got more bark and bite There's when we when you talk about marine snow, there's poo in there too, right? Oh, totally. Okay. Yeah big time. Okay. Why squid? I mean obviously squid are the coolest but like what what illuminated you to how cool squid were

So when I was uh when I first realized that squid were awesome I was about eight and I was watching this natural natural Uh geographic like video that I got from the library. It was all about the ocean fish coral reefs Reaves reefs, not sure dolphins and what have you but there was this segment about halfway through where they play Twilight Zone music and then they introduced the cuttlefish and I was just like What the fuck is that? You are entering another dimension A watery world between time and space where strange creatures use bizarre powers

the alien zone And I was like I need to know more about that animal So in the video it's doing this like passing cloud maneuver So cuttlefish can change color as quickly as they think about it because each little color changing cell Um is controlled by neurons. So it's as if you think that you can change Um, which is really cool. So they're called chromatophores Um, and there's these little sacks of pigment little circles spheres of pigment that are surrounded by little cellular muscles That uh can stretch the pigment out like a pancake and then let it release and go back to a little teeny tiny beach ball

So they can Turn these on in pattern. So I saw that and was like this is bananas Um, and yeah, so I had been into dinosaurs, but then I switched over to cephalopods pretty much Right then and there and I checked that video out all the time Um, you're like, sorry dino's. Sorry. Yeah, we don't even know what color you were let alone if you could change like an led screen Like that nat geo video which sarah posted on her tumblr squidscientistas.tumblr.com Shows cuttlefish flitting about doing what's called dynamic displays. So they're blinking and changing colors There's like bands of black flashing over their body like if clouds were

overhead zooming past you and through bands of shadow across you So it looks like hypnotic and it confuses their prey. It's bananas. They're like Living squishy disco lights. I get why this video was life changing when you're obsessed with squid I think that makes other people obsessed with your obsession with squid. That's that makes sense That makes sense. Yeah when people are kind of obsessed with cephalopods Do you think it's their huge brains or their dexterity or their instant camouflage that people are drawn to? It's probably different for everybody, but I think one thing that's really Drawing and interesting about cephalopods is that they're really complex animals

That diverged so long ago from us that they've come up with all these really Wacky cool ways to get around the same problems that any other organism has to get around but in a super different way like You know camouflage is the most Crazy different one, but nuts. I mean I can't even you watch videos and you're like are It's so fast. It's crazy. Are we ever going to develop technology To like give us invisibility cloaks in case we see like someone we don't want to see at cosco or something Yeah, one thing that is really really hard to figure out is how

cephalopods look at their environment and then pick what to do because it's not as though they're saying, okay I bet I could do a pretty good rendition of that rock. They take the whole Like environment and then they kind of like it's like, okay. I bet this would fit It's like looking for a new piece of furniture in a room not to match what you've got But to kind of go with the flow of the room But there are scientists working on that In woods hole in that lab that I used to work for Understanding what cues they're using from the environment to pick what to look like and getting back to that

Stretching the pigments out like a pancake and then smushing them like a beach ball Does that change the way that the light reflects on the pigment or how does that change the color? So Okay, so we've got multiple layers of cephalopod skin on the bottom base layer for some cephalopods like cuttlefish There's this really really white Cell type called lucophores and these cells never change color It's just whatever color you shoot on them is the color that they give back to you And it's like the purest white in the animal kingdom. So there are grants working to study this to Make e-readers better

So that the back of the like page is the whitest Version so your eyes have more pigment or more contrast to pick up on words, which is cool Okay, so that's that's base and then above that we have iridophores and iridophores really are the ones that change color But they change color the slowest so they can go from like red To blue purple sort of and those are changing hormonally. So they change a lot slower Um But they're the kind of sparkly iridescent cells

And then on top of those those are where your chromatophores are and chromatophores are One color all the time, but you have many different colors of chromatophores all in your kind of palette So there are like brown ones and yellow ones and reddish ones So which they choose to turn on will determine the pattern that you see. So you're using all of these different cell types to Amalgamate a pattern. Is it like a like a tv screen or led screen? Like is it similar to that or? That would require me to understand how led screens work and I have no idea I tried to check to see if this tv screen analogy was wack

I was like, maybe that was embarrassing to say and then I went on a rabbit hole of lcd liquid crystal display Backlit by led light emitting diodes But also jumbotrons, which is actually a trademark name and sony no longer makes them but led jumbotrons If those were like chromatophores And then I found a published paper called dynamic skin patterns and cephalopods published last year which said in the opening graph Quote with parallels to the pixels on a television screen cephalopod chromatophores So boom i'm sticking with it. Don't at me Scientists agree now we have more important squid gossip to address

So I have two pieces of flimflam. I need you to be wonderful like straight away I had amazing, uh, dr. Chris saccaron ec theologist and she told me that Giant squid live like five years. Is that true that squid have really short lifespans? Oh, yeah, so some squid live even shorter lifespans than that So our bob tail squid we think live about nine months in the wild So really short and then we think at the long end of things is like about five years If they could live to a hundred years, would they take over the world? Would we be screwed? Uh, one would have to assume. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, the other flimflam. I have to debunk is um, our octopus in squid

Possibly alien dna and that's why they're so cool. Let's talk about that one. So yeah, um, no Cephalopods are not aliens. So here's what happened. So the octopus genome came out and there's a lot of Weird cool stuff in that genome and they were saying, okay, there's like all this weird stuff going on Like it's weight really different. It's like it's an alien. They said casually to a journalist and then journalist Cephalopods are aliens. We're like, ah, shit. Good. No, that's It's not we're saying like alien like squid did not come from space So talk to me a little bit about your work with bacteria interactions I know you work with bob tail squid, which are these cute cute little guys and you study

Bioluminescent bacteria that lives on their underside Right. So the bob tail squid has this like symbiosis with the bacterium Right, it's bioluminescent. It's called vibrio fissurei. So they have this organ that is appropriately called a light organ And that's where the bacteria live. It's really cool. Yeah, what a rig. It's it's an evolutionary like I shouldn't use the word mind fuck, but It's evolutionarily really really complex and cool So bob tail squid have these two little crypts where they house one species one single species of bioluminescent bacteria Like a bunch of glowing

purse chihuahuas But the purse is your skin and the chihuahuas help you live Now because it's just one species of bacteria that they have this relationship with it's way easier to study And isolate than a microbiome with a bunch of different species And in sarah's lab, they're looking at the communication between the animal and the bacterium And how the immune cells Influence it like how they recognize their so-called good bacteria So remember the glycobiology episode with michelle de qua where cells use carbohydrate flags to kind of check each other out

and we think it's sort of like When the immune cell and the bacterium first stick to each other The immune cell is kind of like asking the bacterium a couple questions like okay when it comes to lipopolysaccharide What do you have going on? Okay? It looks like that. Okay What do you have going on for this protein over here? Okay? And and let me look at this one other thing on your surface and with this information combined I can identify who you are talk to me a little bit about bobtail squid because They do look like a hybrid between a squid and an octopus and a cuttlefish

Which is actually how I got to know and gently stalk you is I saw I saw You tweeted this adorable photo of when you go check on your squids and like some of them Are totally okay with the checkup and others pretend to be rocks and it's like one bobtail squid That was covered herself in rocks and was like nothing to see here And and then some people tweeted back at you like uh, that's a cuttlefish. Yeah, pretty sure it's cuttlefish Never was like a fuck off. Right. She's a squid scientist Yeah, this happens to me like maybe once a week that someone tries to tell me that my bobtail squid is a cuttlefish That particular day I had like 30 people tell me my bobtail squid was a cuttlefish

But I've just like accepted that this is going to be part of my life Like having men tell me that my squid is not my squid and to be fair like so There are true squid and like I keep calling them calamari squid But like I think that's where you encounter them the most like this long skinny squid So You know when I just say like look at my squid doing something stupid Some people will be like well, actually it's not a true squid. It's uh, you should really be using the term bobtail squid I'm like, yeah, I guess I should when I have this many followers and this many people like

Getting all up in my business. I guess I should always use bobtail squid and they're definitely not cuttlefish They're definitely just definitely not cuttlefish. So to be a cuttlefish you need to have a cuttlebone And the cuttlebone is that buoyant Aragonite is what it's made of It's kind of chel, chalky thing. Yeah, and it helps them maintain neutral buoyancy So they don't have to actually put an effort Staying up in the water been the water been the water every time Sarah says water. I die. I die

I texted her afterwards to ask where she's from out of pure linguistic curiosity and it's philly. I love it so much So this accent is called philadelphia English it's the proper name for it and it's heavily influenced by immigrants from northern ireland and scotland So how you pronounce water is said to be like the defining characteristic of philadelphia english I find it so charming. So please when you hear her say water Take a sip of your beverage rejoice it's So endearing it's like

Sloth baby squid level cute. Okay back to cuttlebooms and if you don't have that you are not a cuttlefish That's basic like cuttlefish 101 if anyone's out there that's like, uh, pretty sure i'm a cuttlefish Like check yourself check your back. Like are you do you have stiff? Yeah, and yeah, then you're a cuttlefish That's probably true. You're a cuttlefish once you have ascertained if you are a cuttlefish How do you know if you're being a dick on the internet? Okay, sarah has not only a lot of forgiveness and total compassion But also kind of an easy test for this for anyone ask yourself before you correct someone if you're right And if you are proceed and say it in a way that's like not hey

You're wrong just say like I'm not sure but I think you're wrong and that goes over better And also if if you get caught out for mansplaining like say sorry, right? And also if people apologize for mansplaining like let them go like they apologize Like everybody has a douchey moment in their life things get so overblown so fast online I know And like yeah things can really snowball So just try to be nice to everybody they can marine snowball they can marine snowball

That would be the grossest snowball you've ever seen ever Your position on eating cephalopods. What is it? Okay, so um two-thoid squid I eat those are like your calamar squid and um Bobtail squid are so small that you'd have to they would be like eating stuffed mushrooms like they're so little And so I don't eat those partially because it would take a lot of work and partially because I've raised them from like eggs Like from day one. I'm like a little weird. They're squid mom like I can't eat them I don't eat cuttlefish because I think they're so stinking cute that like I couldn't do it and I've raised those two And they're like clever and cute and friendly and like when you feed them

They like know you and they'll normally like snuggle next to the seaweed And then if someone that they know comes in that like they know will feed them They'll like come out of the seaweed and like say hi. I had this one cuttlefish It was like cuttlefish number three or whatever that anytime I came in the room He wouldn't just like come out of the seaweed. He would like bob his head Out of the water and it like it was the cutest. It was like the highlight of my day every day getting greeted by cuttlefish number three and When cuttlefish three got sick and died I like cried in the bathroom for 15 minutes

I was so sad because he was just like so cute and so friendly And so I kind of think like having cuttlefish around it's like having a dog around like They're wagging their tail and they're happy to see you and they're just like wow, you're just the best And then octopuses are like the jerk cats. They're like Some of them are nice. Some of them are friendly, but a lot of them are just like You know, I couldn't give a shit if you live or died and that was I've only worked with Octopus bimaculoides the two spot the california two spot octopus So, um, maybe it's just them that are sometimes jerks

So I had eight of them in college and I not like in my dorm room like in the lab That would be a cool sign project, but not safe so Yeah, when I would like feed them so you feed them crabs or whatever you feed them. I fed them crabs and um They stack their little Crab shells in a little pile which is like really cute because they want to keep things neat and clean So I would like come in to clean their tank and sometimes they would like Play with my hands or whatever that I gave them rubber ducky

So they might like pull the rubber ducky to the bottom of the tank let go Some of them would like squirt me in the face every single day And I don't know if they were just like playing like hey girl, let me squirt you in the face You look a little dry, but that's uncomfortable. Let me help you Um And others would just cower in their tanks when I was around. I was like, I feed you I don't touch you. I don't hurt you like why are you afraid of me? But maybe a human Out in california before they were caught was mean to them or maybe they just have good survival instincts

I don't know. Maybe they're plotting a takeover of the world. Maybe they're plotting a takeover. That's true There are a lot of stories of octopus is really wreaking havoc in Aquaria it didn't strike me until I was editing this wait wait, what okay the plural of aquarium Is aquaria what what? Okay, aquariums is still considered fine, but aquaria is More correct. Also jumbotrons are typically located in sports stadia Sit with that. Okay back to how and why an octopus can gtfo your aquarium

Aquaria you basically need to like make sure the tank is completely locked down and has no areas that they can escape um That are way smaller than you think they can escape from because they can squeeze through anything the size of their beak And their beak is way smaller than their head. Um So you gotta watch out for that. How do their brains squish? so squid and octopus brains are bizarre they so they're

Okay, so you've got a beak in the middle surrounded by arms and tentacles if you're a squid so two tentacles and eight arms everybody's got eight arms and um Then they're digestive like their esophagus goes through their brain their brain is like Donut shaped what and goes around their esophagus So things are just like squishing all the time so some Cephalopods you can't squish them like you can't squish a cuttlefish because it's cuttlephone is Big and and you can't squish it. Um, but octopuses can squish through all kinds of stuff

Uh, I don't know if it's like uncomfortable because like we can do things that are uncomfortable Like right hard yoga positions that we can do but like right flying coach Sure flying coach that's really unpleasant, but you can do it, you know, it'll get you from A to B Which is probably what the octopus is trying to do. Um But yeah, I don't know they It doesn't hurt a long term. I guess and why do some of the squid Say they're totally fine with the checkup and why are others like nothing to see I think this is just like a personality thing. So, um, just like there are cats that when people come to the house

They hide under the bed and others that are like, yeah, what up? My name's rupert. Like Please pet me like I think some of them just are anxious little anchors and other of others of them are like I've been here the whole time. You haven't killed me yet. Like let's just do this whatever And when i'm raising the squid, they see me every day My hands are in their tanks every day like they get used to the blue nail polish and whatever that comes along with me Although I think they're colorblind. So they probably don't know that my nail polish is blue They're colorblind, but they have chromatophores. Yeah, how wacky is that? So I don't know I think octopus are colorblind, but I like wouldn't bet my life on that. I'm sure that cuttlefish are so

They can only see like tones of green. We think Which how the hell do they figure out what to do? We don't know There was this proposed experiment where they're they were thinking, okay Maybe there's like another way for them to see color that we aren't aware of so we'll just blind them and see if they can Change color and match their surroundings But the scientists didn't want to blind a little baby cuttlefish because that would make you really sad. So it never got done Because the next time people are like scientists are just cold Hard to they'll kill any like no sometimes we feel so bad that we just won't do it

And we won't get the answer but uh, anyway, I digress You couldn't blindfold them and just be like close your eyes close your eyes We thought about doing that. Um, but as we mentioned cephalopods are real squishy So we were like what would happen if we like took those goggles that you put on when people go tanning And just like stick them on a cuttlefish. So we like tried they basically reached their arms back and like pull it off their face So if you think it's hard to like blindfold a dog Like this is a squishy headed dog that has opposable everything so like they can just yoink stuff Right out in multiples of arms. Yeah, like eight of them side note arms versus tentacles

It's a thing octopuses have eight arms But squid and cuttlefish have eight arms plus two tentacles The tentacles are the two longer Stretchy ones with the grippy clubs on the end of them and the clubs have these circular Surrated rings kind of like teeth so they can whip out and catch stuff Which would be so handy if you were like sitting on a couch and your bag of cheetos was across the room and you were like Okay, if you wanted to make sensual love to someone But didn't want to walk over to them tentacles also helpful. And now what about for sexing?

I heard that an octopus will just use the end of an arm like a paddle covered in sperms and then be like Hey, uh, sent you something and like Send it swimming over to a lady like use this use this and make some babies Yeah, so uh, they're cephalopod sex is Varied and wacky. So Yeah, let's just like talk about it because there's a lot to talk about here So it I don't even know where to begin. So in deep sea squid not all deep sea squid

But this one deep sea squid whose genus and species name obviously is not uh coming to me right now googled and it's Octopotuthis deletron For those taking notes They see each other so rarely that when they see another squid like they don't care if it's male squid They don't care if it's female squid when the male squid see another squid They will punch through the body cavity and just like stick sperm somewhere in there What so like If you think you've had a bad date, I'm sure you have but at least no one literally punched sperm through your abs

Like no and they don't even verify. They don't even verify. No, there's like Oh, that could be a squid And then it's like oh So there are just like male squid getting sperm stuck on the inside female squid getting sperm It's just that just sounds like a terrible approach, but do they survive it? Yeah. Yeah, so I would I would change myself into an invisibility cloak all the time. No wonder. I'd be like, yeah, there's no squid here I gotta get out of here. This is the pits. Yeah, the dating scene in the deep sea is Is no good. Uh, okay. Let's talk about something better. Um, so we've got

The giant australian cuttlefish and this is like my favorite cephalopod tail out there So these these uh, cuttlefish are like A meter long. They're huge and beautiful. So the males are like Okay, if you can picture a cuttlefish if you've never seen a cuttlefish before picture a rugby ball With like a bed skirt around the outside and then like a little stupid face with eight arms So so you're there. We're there and now the males have these two big arms that kind of are like Flopping down on either side. They're really big and kind of billowy Um, and they kind of look like someone put on a shirt that's way too big for them

And that's their skin and they're purple and blue and beautiful and roughly Honestly with their arms like right in front of their Eyes, they look like heavily mustachioed Like ron swanson types or like a bristle lift cop from an old movie And now the female of the species is much smaller and they tend to put on More maroon splotchy patterns. So they're easily distinguished from the males by the size and the color most males And there are a lot of males in the breeding frenzies, which I propose I think they should call them cuttle parties

It's quite a battle because there's like 10 males to every one female out there. So yeah, it's a tough It's a tough sausage party. It's a sausage fest. Yeah So the big males will basically battle each other. They'll wrestle And the winner of the wrestling match, which is like hilarious because like watching two like Comforters battle is like pretty funny. So there yeah, there's like floofy tentacles everywhere and arms rather everywhere and The winner gets access to the female for at least a bit of time Mates with her and then the females

Meanwhile mating with many males throughout this time period And storing the sperm from each male in these little pockets that she's got in her arms And she's like just keeping her rolodex of sperm ready to go and then when she actually Lays her egg she gets to kind of pick who she liked and who she didn't like Does she remember because I can't that sounds like the season premiere of the bachelor Basically, I guess she does. How does she do it? I don't know. They're very organized. So, okay That's already pretty cool But then you have these little males and they know they don't stand a chance against the big males

If they get in a battle, they're gonna lose. So they got to think of something else to do. So They will Cross-dress basically They take those two big billowy arms on the side and they just tuck them. I love rude paul's drag race and No, they do and then they put on this like the bodily pattern of the female and then they just like Swim on over to the female and they're like, hey girl and then when the male's like I'm killing it. I got two ladies. This is the best day ever Yo joe and then while he goes to talk to his friend

The little male is like ps i'm a dude mates with the female Leaves really fast so that he doesn't get his ass kicked by the big male And then when the female goes to lay her eggs So she's got her eggs like all back up in the mantle And she fertilizes them one by one and puts them in a little egg clutch on the bottom of the ocean so When she goes to do that, like I said before she can choose who she liked and those males the little males that cross-dress They get a bigger proportion of the eggs than the big males

Why? I guess they want to like maybe the females liked intelligence like hey, that was pretty smart So if we're ever like how did those cephalopods get so smart? It's like well, here's one way They're choosing for it. So it sounds like the like the worst rom-com plot ever. So they're able to To Change their pattern to look like a lady. Yeah. Yeah. So it's all like so we talk about like and I might get yelled at for this but like we talk about gender being obviously different from sex and you

You only have gender when there's society, you know, so like we normally we're only like well Gender's only true in humans because only humans have society and it's like and yet if you can cross-dress and put on different like cultural patterns and signals of being a male or female like do cuttlefish Kind of have gender like maybe I don't know. I'm not Uh a gender and sexuality scientist. I'm a squid scientist, but food for thought for us to all think about as we go about our day I mean, it's kind of like how us ladies like Funny ugly guys, you know, I mean totally. You're like, you've got a good brain. Yeah. I don't need a jawline

That's so fascinating. I always like to ask is there a movie about cephalopods that you hate or love? All right, 20,000 leagues under the sea has a giant squid Um, there are certainly no movies about squid biologists that i'm aware of Are there any sea creatures like giant squid in any of the pirates of the Yeah, there is the kraken. Um, the kraken isn't one of them But yeah, we can talk about that because that kraken upsets me. Okay. So like we've said Uh cephalopods have beaks and this kraken when it comes out now, of course like the kraken is a mythological creature But the kraken that was the mythological creature we've shown is probably a giant squid. So I uh denounced the fact that it's mythological

it's real So whatever so it's like stick with what's real and so the kraken in that movie has like of rings of teeth like a shark sort of but like there's no beak in there It's just rings of teeth and I'm like, come on man. You we have Access to what those animals look like Beaks are scary enough. We don't need rings of teeth. What are they horrifying? What do the beaks look like and where did those come from from an evolutionary standpoint? Who I don't know where they came from from an evolutionary standpoint. Um, but they look like

Sharp parrot beaks kind of they're like brown parrot beaks I should have brought them because I have a collection of squid beaks Which is something that we don't mention on the first date which uh I'm gonna tell you a story that I've never told on a podcast before So once upon a time I was going on a date with a dude whose name I shouldn't Mention we were hanging out and talking about raccoons and stuff as as you do on a first date

And then we things were going pretty well So we were back in my apartment and then we like went in my room to hang out and then he found a box under my bed It was like what it was like pretty close to that to like the he wasn't like deep under my bed It was like pretty close to the outside of my bed And he was like what's in the box thinking it would be something that like would be fun for him But I knew that that box had like Squid beaks in it like squid beaks octopus beaks cuddle bones like Dried flowers and like snake skins and stuff. And I was like, oh, yeah

You don't want to go in there like that's It's maybe not the best idea. So he was like, oh that means I should definitely go in there So he opens it up and like, okay, maybe recently I had gotten some squid and maybe I was like still working on getting some of the squid chunks off of them. So I like had soaked them in this like Ethan all so like I so he was like, wait, what is this? And was like already like the look on his face went from like this is gonna be a great night to like What the fuck did I get myself into and I was like, oh, well, I mean those are just like um squid beaks and I also have some octopus and uh

Cuttlefish too and ur and then And he opened it he opened it and And then he just closed the jar put it back in the box put the box under my bed Walked out and never talked to me. No Oh, I was gonna hope I was hoping to say that you're like engaged or something Not even after hanging out in a basement with this chick for one hour. I can very much say His loss. Are you ready for some rapid fire? I'm so ready for some rapid fire. Okay. All right But before we take questions from you our beloved listeners, we're going to take a quick break for sponsors of the show

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Your questions Lily masa wants to know what's the deal with squid ink? What's the deal with squid ink? So squid? Okay. Yeah, this is this is a good question Because I can go anywhere I want with it. So squid ink is it's a pigment that they store in their ink sack And they primarily use it to get away from predators. So They have two options. They could either make this Puffy cloud that they just like like a smoke bomb and then they disappear and confuse everybody and potentially It tastes bad to some fish. So the inky like ah, you can't see me leave is one tactic another approach is

What's called a pseudomorph? So that's a blob that they incorporate mucus into the uh But no, it's great. It's okay. I've had it all over my face before because I was Working with the squid and it woke up in the middle of me trying to wake it up Really violently and just inked me Right in the face and it was just like dripping off my face. I was like, man I deserved it. They'll shoot the pseudomorph where they were jet away from where they are Leave the blob where they were so the the shark or the big fish is like, oh there it is and then

Attacks the blob and just gets a mouth full of mucusy ink How pissed would you be if you were eating a sandwich you blink for a second You put the sandwich your mouth. It's an inky inky blob of mucus. That'll be a real bummer Cold bummer your sandwich is like And it's hiding behind a bush. Yeah, they'll be they'll be pissed pissed Oh, so that's the deal was I didn't know that that's what they used them for. I thought they were they only produced it for pasta That's true. They also used it for pasta um

al-martina's wants to know how many giant squids are there and Is there any truth to the old tales of giant squids attacking ships? Okay. No, that's that's the question I'll answer so uh, there are Most likely a shit ton of giant squid because we find a lot of giant squid beaks in sperm whales So we've like tried to back of the envelope calculate how many giant squid there are and I don't have that exact number in my head, but they live pretty much everywhere in the deep ocean

Now the reason there's this myth about them attacking ships is that These animals are full of ammonia which is Part of dealing with buoyancy basically and when they die instead of sinking like other squid and cuttlefish and octopus do They float and so when they're starting to feel Like crap and start to die They tend to just sort of like go near the top of the water Yeah, we think there are a lot a lot a lot of giant squid Oh, oh and they get to the top of the water when they're sick and ships

Like maybe they'll just like touch the side of the ship because they're like what what year is it like? Who are you? Are you gonna help me and then they're like the the sailor is like, oh my god, it's attacking meanwhile It's just like on its death bed and killing like garbage. So it's not gonna hurt. Yeah Tell my family. I love you. Exactly. Exactly. Um, john worst wants to know how intelligent is an octopus Would its intelligence level compare it to like a four or five year old child? Or is it more intelligent than that the short answer is like lord knows how smart any given animal is You really it's like a harder question than you think it is. So when you Are assessing how smart an animal is?

Uh, and you're not like an animal intelligence scientist You might think like, okay, you're kind of judging the animal based on how you judge human intelligence How smart is an octopus compared to like an age of human? I don't know. Maybe like a dog I don't know. I guess it also depends on how dumb your children are. That's very true I I've never had a child or watch one develop Uh, I mean, so as a four-year-old I got my whole arm stuck in an escalator And they had to invent the emergency stop button for me and another kid whose foot got eaten off So it's really depends on yeah, who's definitely wouldn't happen to an octopus. I know so even if it did

It's like I have seven extra arms. I'm just gonna eat this off. We're good Okay, krista avampado says are squid likely to be more impacted by climate change than other sea animals? Or they or will they be one of the species that's best able to adapt? so Squid are doing really well right now But we think that's more to do with the fact that we don't over fish them So we have over fished the hell out of most fish populations We started with the biggest fish and then we've been working our way down ever since so the really small prey fish are doing

the best the one thing that Cephalopods generally have to worry about with climate change is ocean acidification. So Um, basically when the ocean is acidic, it's harder to build a shell So that's going to be a problem for all crustaceans and clams bivalves, whatever now When they're looking at populations in the last like five ten years All of the cephalopods that I know of are doing really well But we don't have really good records of fisheries information for squid because back then you wouldn't need to eat a squid because you had

Cod coming out your ears. So we think they're doing all right We don't think they're endangered. The other nice thing is that they have really short lifespans for the purposes of of adapting quickly That's great. When you produce a lot of your species Um, it leads it gives you more opportunity to adapt quickly and evolve quickly Compared to an animal that you know needs to live 50 years before it reproduces, right? Um, so I have more iterations to kind of play with and yeah exactly Oh, that's interesting. I hadn't ever thought about that. Yeah, okay. Jennifer Overby wants to know our squid social creatures I think we just talked about how they were loners. Um, she said I've only ever seen them alone

But they must get busy every once in a while. So with how intelligent they are, do they have a complicated social structure? So it depends on this on the species. So some like sepia toothus, which are these like, uh, really really beautiful squid that have the bed skirt that goes all the way around the fin that goes all the way around, um They will generally travel in groups of like, I don't know three to seven ish. And so they're always hanging out together Humboldt squid travel in huge packs now. Humboldt squid are Up there with some of the coolest cephalopods. They're like human sized lengthwise they're like sick and big and scary and they've they're like some people have said that they kill people swimming Which I wouldn't put past them, but I don't know if there are like recorded deaths from Humboldt squid

um, but I would believe it Humboldt squid fyi also called red devils and they're known to be very intelligent very curious and aggressive so those Beaks they have that look like bird beaks have more bite force than an african lion Which is a fact I did not need to know And I kind of wish I didn't I'm sorry so and they live off Baja, California and Uh, I think in 2010 they were coming up through like up to san francisco

um They're huge traveling packs. They flash red and white To communicate with each other we think and they will pack hunt which is so scary like as if one Humboldt squid isn't scary enough like I People who will sometimes dive with them and literally wear like chain mail because they don't want to get Bit could they eat a human sure why not? Yeah, and then the bummer about getting eaten by a squid is that

They don't care if you're living or dead while they're eating you They will like they have such so many arms to grab on to you that they'll grab on and like start chomping away while you're still alive Oh boy so um It seems like a very scary It seems like with a Humboldt squid if they're the size of a human it would just be like getting into a big skin sleeping bag Like you would just fill their whole guts. Yeah, so they might like eat part of you and then drop you. Oh, cool Yeah, just share the wealth. Yeah, absolutely like anyone want some of this. Yeah, well, you're gonna become marine snow

Mike Ramsey wants to know every once in a while a strange creature washes up on a beach somewhere And may often be described as squid-like but of unknown classification Is anyone maintaining a database of unknown sea creatures? If there's no immediate obvious classification and no easy way to find living specimens, does anyone research these things? So I think a lot of times when things wash up that could be cephalopods Uh, but that we don't really know like cephalopods degrade really fast. They don't have um, they're they're like Okay, so for example if one of my squid dies

Um in the tank the next morning It'll already start to come apart if I leave it till the afternoon Like its body parts will start falling off And this is like this is like just in like a tank where there's not a lot of like wave action By the next morning if I pick it up it will fall through my fingers liquid. So like Identifying positively a lot of this stuff is really hard to do. So that's probably why they're saying like unidentified Yeah, it was a cephalopod, but like what was it lord knows brian edge wants to know how threatened are the nautiloid populations They've always been one of my favorite cephalopods

Great choice. Um, the nautilates are in bad shape right now because we keep collecting them for their shells Their shells are gorgeous and if you cut them in half Do you see like these different chambers that the animal used to live in but they reproduce pretty slowly? And they don't produce as much as many offspring per nautilus as the squid do so But go online and look up the nautilus breeding program at The moderate bay aquarium because you have these like little baby nautilus videos and they're so cute Like cuttlefish look like just tiny fully formed cuttlefish

Which are so cute that it hurts a little bit and nautilus is the same way they come out pretty big Um, and they just look like fully formed nautilus, but small Um with a shell with a shell little babies. It's really just so cute But yeah, so don't buy nautilus shells because you're depleting the population and we gotta cool it Yeah, let's 3d print some. Yeah, sure. Are there enough people studying? The squid and octopus and cuttle cuttlefish. There's not enough government money to fund People studying cephalopods. There should be more because they're so dope and we can learn so much from like Understanding how they're doing this stuff is really important for like engineering purposes down the line

What my work is doing is really more about understanding how your microbiome Stays healthy. Um, but yeah, there's a lot to learn from these animals. It's super cool. Um, also octopuses octopuses I know you want it to be octopi. We all do. We all do octopi sounds nice. Okay, octopuses. You have to say pussies It's a stone cold bummer, but it's It's what it's the fact of life So you just gotta just get up in the mirror look at yourself and just say Octopuses and keep a straight face and then when you can do it You've made it then then you can apply to be a cephalopod biologist if you can say octopuses

I got a way to go. Okay. So what about your job sucks the most? What do you hate? Is um, I mean tanks is it probably so probably like Dead shrimp is the worst part of my job because they turn like, um Pink and get goopy and like that's and they smell pretty bad. So that's the one of the worst parts of my job Um, and that's normally what I what I say, but also like the worst part maybe of being a squid biologist specifically Is people and you can cut this if you want, but um people will like no joke send me tentacle porn on And I'm like

But like people will no joke be like, oh you're into tentacle porn like in college I'd be like I'm really not like that really upsets me because these square these nice lovely little animals like why? But also don't send it to someone unless they request it. Yeah Especially someone that really cares about the welfare of cephalopods like god So that happens to me more than I that's probably the worst part like I can I can like pick up 30 dead shrimp and be like I had a really good day today But like any day that somebody sends me squid porn is a bad day at least a bad afternoon. I'm like

Report like no please Don't What is the best thing about your job? The best thing about my job right now is watching a baby baby squid So so when they first hatch they're like the size of the head of a pin and they'll take down these shrimp called mysids They're about like four times as big as them and it's that's very cute But when they transition from little shrimp to big shrimp, it's hilarious because these little squid That are maybe like a quarter of a marble in size will tackle these big shrimp and it's like

Hilarious because they've got this huge shrimp in their mouth And they're like trying to swim and like control where this big shrimp goes And that means that I can now pay a little less money to feed them Which is great and it means that they're gonna make it because that's the hardest part of raising a squid getting it to Transition to bigger shrimp and if they make that transition, it's like I've done it like that's like sending your kid to college Like you did it You didn't screw it up Everything's good and it's all it's just like so stupid cute. I can't handle it

It reminds me of when like a tiny poodle is carrying a huge stick right no, it's exactly like that It's just like that but with more arms. Yeah And they'll like stretch all their stupid little arms around the shrimp body and it cracks me up I forgot to ask you entirely and then how can people get involved with skype a scientist? Basically, it's a program where we match up scientists and either classrooms or groups of adults that like learning so that they can have these like 30 to 60 minute question and answer sessions with a scientist So skype a scientist isn't just for school kids. They just expanded to just adults So if you're a book club or a library group, you can sign up and you can gather and you can chat with one of over

1,500 scientists who have already signed up You can go to skype a scientist.com and you can click for more info if you're a scientist Or if you're someone who wants to talk to one click the teacher button So it's also not just for skype. You can FaceTime or video hang out But it was like, I mean, let's be honest google plus hang out a scientist just does not have a ring to it So they just call it skype a scientist Every scientist loves answering questions about their work. They're spending their whole life working on it

So just tweet at them Probably they're gonna be happy that somebody talks to them and cares about their science That's such solid advice I think so many people figure that like if you were to tap the shoulder of a working scientist They would rear back in a lab and say how the hell you right. It's nice to know that they're like, oh, no sweet I'm just like walking through them all and I can totally answer that right now waiting for a smoothie. Right. Yeah, totally. I think Yeah, the the movies and tv give scientists such a bad rep like we're friendly and like talking to other people most of the time There's no reason to not talk to us

And a lot of times like if you're studying some weird thing like bob tail squids and biosis or whatever like You probably don't think people care some of the time. So like when people do care, it's like awesome Like yeah, let's do my favorite thing. Like of course. I want to talk about this. So yeah, don't be afraid of us. Okay Thank you so so much for being on. I'm so excited. I mean, it was only like several months of like mildly stalking you That's fine. Where are you gonna be around? It's me again Such a creep. It should be noted that during this interview We also paused for a moment and we did our best impressions of squid and cuttlefish dances for each other Hers was amazing and if you ever see her out in Connecticut, she says you have to buy her beer to see it performed

Which is fair Also, we got locked in this library basement for like five or 10 minutes after the interview Which was scary, but honestly, I wouldn't have changed it for the world It was a good time Now to internet befriend sarah mackinulty. You can follow her on twitter or instagram at sarah mack attack s a r a h m a c k Attack

She also gives advice to anyone wanting to get involved with squid. She says Just start working with animals in general as soon as you can in any capacity. Don't be afraid to do disgusting work You can also volunteer at one of the many aquaria in the nation and just ask people Questions ask scientists questions. If you're ever living in Connecticut, you want to work with her if you're a big squid nerd And you're like, this is my jam Reach out. Um, she also thanked her squid squad that helped with her research in the lab. Zach Elise Hope Courtney and Lydia Um, thank you From me to Stephen Ray Morris for editing this cephalopodcast and to bonnie dutch and shannon feltis

For handling all the oligies merch at oligiesmerch.com. Thank you erin talbert and hannon lipo Being admins and wonderful friends. Um, the oligies facebook group that they admin is great It's full of curious hilarious people. I'd love going in there and saying hi to everyone. Um, thank you to all the patrons For financially making this podcast possible. Thank you. You are really the engine behind this That's it patreon.com slash oligies if you want to support even a quarter an episode helps Thank you so much nick Thorburn of the band islands did the music And I guess I always give you guys a little secret at the very end of the podcast As a thank you for listening

um very much not a redhead and On top of that I dye my hair with stuff out of a box from the grocery store and In the shower it looks like carry But it costs about ten dollars and it usually turns out the right color. So there you go. That's your secret Okay, ask smart people dumb questions Next week, I think it's going to be mythology. What do you think? It's gonna be good. Bye. Bye

Mothology cryptozoology Letology Meteorology Nephology