Omnichannel - Jason Moss Ethical Marketing For Impactful Coaches

Episode Date: November 4, 2021

Send us a textJason Moss is a conscious business coach who helps purpose-driven coaches scale to six figures with authentic, heart-centered marketing. He's a former Director of Sales who helped scale a coaching business to 250k / month, and he's spent a lifetime starting, growing and scaling businesses in a variety of different nichesGet a FREE Copy of the High Converting Online Events Book: https://book.dominikalegrand.com/

Welcome, everybody. You are listening to the Omni Channel podcast, a podcast from digital marketers to digital marketers. I'm your host, Dominique Caldegrant, and my mission is to help fellow marketers and entrepreneurs to grow their businesses online. So buckle up and let's get started. Welcome guys in this podcast episode. So today I have Jason with me and we are going to talk about how it is possible to be having integrity and in market with integrity and how those concepts are essentially connected together Jason's approach to marketing is and sales is something different that I honestly don't see often in the business I think what makes him unique is that he is very connected to the idea of an ethical marketing and ethical marketing strategies.

And I invited him on this podcast today to talk to me about that. So I'm very, very excited to have him in this episode. Enjoy, you guys. Thank you so much for coming to the podcast. Of course, I appreciate you reaching out. And I'm sorry, it took a couple of tries to get to me. No, no, it's fine. It's fine.

I think I'm sure you're getting a ton of like friend requests from random people. And I don't think you're able to sort through all of that. And I remember seeing and that's the reason why by the way I wanted you to be on the podcast um is that I've been seeing your comments like they were like very helpful like under a post and there was your comment and that was like a video reply and I'm like oh my god it's so cool well thanks I appreciate that and I'm like, oh my God, it's so cool. Well, thanks. I appreciate that. And I'm like, I'm going to your page and I'm reading more and more and I'm like, integrity and like ethical and all of that.

I'm like, dude, this guy is different. I need to have him. Well, thank you. That means a lot to me. And it's a huge mission of mine to be able to not only create success for other coaches through the work that I do, but also to bring some of those deeper values to the way that we market. And so I'm excited to have this conversation and to hopefully share some perspective with your audience and to hopefully help bring some of those values into the marketing world.

Yeah, absolutely. Well, I'm so, so happy that you're here. So if you know, maybe we can get into the questions themselves. First thing I wanted to ask you is really your origin story. How did you start with entrepreneurship yourself? I think you mentioned you worked in sales, but just in overall, if you can just give me like a bit more about your origin story, that would be awesome. So when I was 12 years old, I was a big computer geek. I thought you were going to say when I was born and like, just when I was born in a nice field of grad. No, when I was 12 years old, I was a big computer geek. I used to go around and fix people's computers and just would love technology and have always

loved technology. And I remember that time I was really into computer games. But one of the most frustrating things about being a kid and trying to play computer games was you'd have to find the CD for the computer game in order to play. Like you'd have to hunt it. Like it wouldn't play without the CD. So every time I wanted to play my favorite game, like rollercoaster tycoon was one of the games I used to love. Okay. I love that you love that. So I used to have to hunt around, like go like under the bed to try to find the game. And like, you have to like take it out of the box and it'd be all scratched and there'd be dog hair all over

it. And it was a big pain point for me as a 12 year old kid. So I was like, you know what, I'm going to make a computer program that makes it possible for me to play all my favorite computer games without the CD. So I didn't know a lot about programming at that point, but I remember going out online and learning about visual basic and learning how to code. And I spent like the whole summer hauled up in the back room of my home, like pouring over this software program. And after a couple of months I had built this thing so impressive I what was that I'm sorry impressive well thanks I was a big nerd and I had a lot of visual basic books that I used to love to bring into the bathroom with me that really helped so learning learning was that was my favorite place to learn. So anyways, after a couple of months,

I built this thing and I built a website for it. And at that time to try to like sell something online was like a Herculean task. Like you had to, you had to have like a payment gateway. It wasn't like going on Stripe and like setting something up in two minutes. It was like a process. So I went to my dad and I was like, dad, can you help me out with this? Like, clearly I'm not old enough to sign any of these things. Can you help me get started? And so he signed for me and, and I put this thing up and about a week later, I get an email and it says, congratulations, you've sold 2000 copies of your software. And I was like, what? Are you kidding me? Like, this is it. This is it. I'm an entrepreneur. I'm a 12 year old entrepreneur. I got to drop out of school. Like I'm going to

be the next Steve Jobs. I've been in Shark Tank or something. I was freaking out. So I scrolled down the email. It's like 2000 copies location, Nigeria. And I thought, look at me. I'm a global international entrepreneur. So I went to my dad and I was like, dad, you'll never believe it. 2000 copies of my software from some guy in Nigeria. He bought 2000. He's like, Jason. And my dad was in fraud at a bank. He worked in fraud and he was like, you know, I think he probably got scammed. And I was like, screw you, dad. You don't know what you're talking about.

A couple of days later, I found out it was a scam. But that really was my first taste of entrepreneurship. And that journey has propelled me forward through several different businesses, through many different niches, through becoming a director of sales, scaling a coaching business to 250K a month, through my own journey now as a business coach, where I help other coaches create successful, profitable, thriving businesses with those deeper values in place as well. So I love entrepreneurship. It's a huge passion of mine, and it's always been a part of my life. So you were working in sales, like you were a sales

director at a company? I was, yeah. So after I built an education company online, my first big company that I built was this music education company, helping other musicians learn how to record their own music. So I was the guy recording the videos and built this thing up to a really, it was a successful six-figure business. It was doing really well. And I had a friend who was also doing the same and his business really blew up and they needed a director of sales to lead and

manage their sales team. So I stepped in to that company and we helped grow that company basically in my role as a director of sales. So I was leading and managing a sales team. And that was one of the first times that I really started thinking about like ethical sales and marketing and how do we actually sell in a way that is of service, truly of service. Um, so what was the biggest issue that you see that you saw yourself in, in the sales business that you thought that just not okay, like practice wise? Well, there was one day I remember when I first came into the company, actually, um, on our, on our, on the page that, so, so the, the model of the company, it was basically like a,

it was a sales team. And so we had Facebook ads running to a webinar and then, you know, people watch the webinar and then they would book a call to go to our sales team. And on the booking page, there was some text at the top of the page and a video that sold the call. And you know, when you're trying to sell calls, it's like, you don't want to tell people it's a sales call, right? Because no one's going to show up. But we had said very specifically, this is not a sales call. And here I was managing and leading a sales team that was taking these calls. And I remember feeling so uncomfortable about it because it was just like, we're lying to people. Like every day, there are hundreds of people that are watching this video, booking these calls. And it's basically like a bait and switch. And even though I was, I was so uncomfortable about it, it took me probably,

I don't know, almost two months before I mustered up the courage to actually, if I'm being completely honest, we had a new person joined my team and he pointed it out to me and I was already aware of it, but I didn't have enough guts at that time to really stand up and say, Hey, this isn't right to our CEO. But the guy on my team was like, look, man, this is not cool. And he was a hundred percent right. And after he shared it with me, I was like, okay, I feel like I need to overcome my own fear of being the whistleblower and actually say like, this is a problem. Like we need to change this. It's not right. So that was really one in around that time.

Those were kind of the formative years of me really thinking more about ethics when it comes to sales and marketing. Yeah. I did see that in some of your posts that you put on your Facebook profile that you talk about spirituality as well. And how do you connect those with ethics and sales and spirituality? And how did that journey start in your life? Well, when I was 21, I was diagnosed with cancer. And I was always an entrepreneur and always building businesses, but that was really a period of my life where everything got turned upside down. And I mean, I was going to school at the time, going to NYU, and I dropped out of school, went through chemo, radiation, later relapsed a year later,

went through a bone marrow transplant. So it was several years of my life where everything felt like it got stripped away. And at that time, and one of the gifts, one of the great gifts of that experience was, I mean, going through that experience really connected me to what really matters. And I mean, it's cliche, like everybody talks about this, but like, you know, when you strip away all the like stuff that we all spend our time doing and all the business and the work and like, I got really down to the core. I mean, I remember being in the hospital, going through my bone marrow transplant, which I was there for a month, you stay in the hospital. I mean, I remember being in the hospital going through my bone marrow transplant, which I was there for a month. You stay in the hospital for a month. You can't actually go

outside the hospital room because you have no immune system. So I was like locked in this hospital room for a month. And I remember just that feeling of like getting to interact with the nurses and feeling just the sense of like human decency and connectedness and kindness and love and all of these things that I hadn't really paid much attention to when I was younger and certainly not on my entrepreneurial journey. So after going through that experience and then stepping back into entrepreneurship and starting to run a business again and build businesses again, I started realizing that like, I couldn't, it was almost like, it's like, once you've seen something, you can't like unsee it. Like that experience had

really stripped me down so raw and it changed who I was and it changed what I wanted and it changed the person that I felt like I was and the way that I wanted to show up in the world and what I thought really mattered. And so in many ways, I think my journey since then has been like trying to bring those two things together. That was really what brought me into a sense of spirituality. I was never interested in any of that growing up. But that really opened, that experience really opened the door to this deeper sense of searching and questions like,

what does my life mean? And what really matters? And all of those questions that are so easy to kind of shove under the rug when we're so busy focused on building the next thing. So as I started to do some of that deeper work in myself and really having these experiences of this connectedness to this deeper sense of truth and what really mattered, it naturally really bled into how I run a business. And it became, those values became infused in the work that I do. So it wasn't enough to show up and just make a bunch of money. It didn't fulfill me. It didn't really feed me. It was like, how do I actually show up in a way that, that, that honors and respects those deeper values that I've encountered through this experience in my life. And that's really been the journey that I've been on kind of ever since. It's been almost seven years at this point since going through treatment. Wow. I do agree on the fact that when you are, like, even if it's just a short-term illness, for me, it's very instantaneous that I cannot look at a screen, for example, if I have a flu or like something really short-term, I am unable to look at a screen. I'm unable to look at my phone. I can't even touch any device, even TV.

I cannot look at any of that. And it's really, for me, I don't have to get anything more serious than that to And I start to meditate and just really turn back to my core on those occasions, because it means I slipped somewhere, somewhere, something slipped. Either it's my extensive amount of work, it's not being mindful enough, it's not, it's too much, it's somewhere there's a problem. So I do all the time I turn back to the core um so I think I agree with you on that that you think you were able to see that I yeah and it's easy to get distracted I mean certainly I'm the biggest example of that and I fall off the wagon all the time and get very caught up in work. And I think the real, what I'm

most interested about these days is how do we bring those pieces together? That sense of connectedness, that sense of presence, that sense of truth, love, whatever you want to call it, and bring it into the world of business, into the world of marketing, into the world of the work that we do, because I think that's what we really need. I mean, marketing and business and all of these things are really a product of our state of who we are. It's our state of consciousness and our state of how we're showing up. And if we're agitated and stressed out and fearful about money and, and all of these things, they naturally bleed into the work that we do. And then those become things that actually perpetuate those States and others. And so what I'm interested in is how do we actually make the

world a better place through the work that we do through the way that we market through the businesses that we run. And that's what I'm most passionate about. Yeah. I love that. I love that. I love that you are, you have that passion to bring all of those pieces together. I definitely agree with you on that. And especially because, and I see it a lot of the time, people are thriving for 10K, you know, like I think you see it all the time, like nine figures, six figures, whatever figures, numbers, and you tend to believe that this is what matters. And you tend to believe that it's what you want.

And even for my own business I had to realize that 100k well okay cool now what a million dollars now what so with my is my life that much better if there's money in my bank account not really I would probably be doing what I'm doing now but in a bigger scale for me money is a tool um to help other people succeed that's it the more people you help succeed the more successful you become that's it for me it's very simple um so I remember seeing a post again on your Facebook. I was scrolling through everything. And there was like a $500 client and like a $50,000 client. Can you explain more about that meme and what it meant? Well, I love what you just said too.

And I'll definitely explain the meme. But I think it's so true that we've all been caught. Certainly I have in chasing the numbers and this illusion that we all have that somehow building a six figure business or seven, whatever it is, whatever figure it is, is going to be the answer. And I've, I mean, I remember when my first, I did my first big launch for the first business that I run that really started taking off. And I remember I did like 20 K in a week, which at that point was like more money than I'd ever

made in like a very short period of time. But I remember that feeling of watching those sales go in and just the emails come in on my screen and just feeling a sense of emptiness and realizing that I just spent the last like six months of my life slaving away, building this thing, not taking care of myself. For what? For a bunch of numbers on a screen? So I'm pro money. Like I am definitely, I help people build businesses, make more money. I'm all about making money. There's nothing wrong with that. But what's the real goal? The people that I talk to, when I ask them, how much money do you want to make in your business? And they say six figures. My next question is why? And that's really when you get to what's interesting and what really matters because people start talking about how they want to spend more time at home with their family and kids, and they want to feel more connected to the people around them instead of feeling stressed out all the time. And then we can really talk about building a business that

actually allows them to achieve those goals instead of just chasing a number for the sake of chasing a number. So I love what you just said. And I'll answer your question about the meme. journey through entrepreneurship is price. And the price that we charge for things is very interesting and the relationship that that has with psychology and what it actually creates in terms of the people that we work with and the kinds of clients we call in. So I remember when I first launched this big course that I was just actually talking about selling through that launch that made 20 K in the week. I remember before I launched it, one of the things that I wanted to do was go out and get some testimonials for the, for the

program before it went live so that I could put those on the sales page and have some people talking about how it was a good course before I actually sold it. So what I went out and did was I reached out to my friends and my network and I said, Hey, I've got this course I just spent the last couple of months building. I'd love to share it with you for free in exchange for, you know, your honest thoughts about what the experience was like. So everyone was like, yeah, sure. That sounds awesome. And send it over. So I sent the course off to a bunch of people for free. And in my mind, I was like, this is the best course ever. They're going to freak out when they see this, they're going to get so much value and they're going to reply back to me and say, oh my God, that was the best course ever. But nobody got back to me. And I started looking

through the data and I realized like 95% of the people didn't even open it. And that was a really big lesson for me as an entrepreneur, because what I realized was that people's relationship to value has a lot to do with how much they pay for something. Yeah. In other words, if I, if I'm like Dominica, I'm going to send you $20,000 tonight for, you know, Facebook marketing, like I got skin in the game and I am going to show up to our calls. I'm going to do the work, whatever it is that you asked me to do, because I feel like I've actually got some skin in it. Whereas if you were like, Hey, I'm giving you, you know, free Facebook marketing, like I'll run all your ads for you. You don't have to do anything, but it's free. Honestly, like I could care less because I'm like,

Oh, it's free. It's not costing me anything, like whatever. So the way that I engage, the way that I show up to that experience is a function of what I pay for it. So what I've found in my own journey is that we think about price sometimes in a very black and white way where it's like, can they afford it? Can they not? Pricing as a function of like, what is somebody else charging? How do I be competitive in the marketplace? But it's also a tool that we can use to really call out the caliber of clients that we really want to work with. So what I've found is that people who spend, the people who, if I charge bottom of the barrel prices, I'm going to get bottom of the barrel clients. And those are generally the most difficult clients to work with. They're the clients who honestly, who are just challenging.

They have their more issues. Oftentimes they're oftentimes not happy, which is kind of interesting. It's like they complain a lot and they're not happy. And they want immediately the solution. Exactly. On the other hand, some of the, like, I have a client who we've done probably like 50, at least $50,000 in billings together at this point. And he's the best. And not once has he ever complained about like, hey, this doesn't set, you know, it's just, it's very easy

working together. And I think it's a function oftentimes of just like where somebody sits in terms of like what we're charging them. So when I posted that meme, the meme was basically comparing a $500 client to a $50,000 client. And the $500 client was like, well, I feel like we need to talk about what this investment is gonna mean for us. And like, well, I'm investing a lot in you and you have to deliver for me. And then the $50,000 client was like,

here, take my money, thank you. Because that's really the experience that I've had. And I think a lot of entrepreneurs have. Yeah, no, I agree with you a hundred percent. I think we all went through it, the free stuff, people don't value it. The cheap clients, they take away your time, they demanding and it's incredible. Like I know I've been there, done that. And it's just not a good experience overall. But I think, I think we can talk a bit more about um coaches and their pricing um and what your take on that yourself but um personally i see a lot of coaches just throwing

random numbers and two three k's when they just start out um or even talk to a coach who is a beginner but like wants to charge 10k and i think there are again it's elastic right like a value is like what is a perceived value the higher your perceived value is the more you can charge but um there is a bit of um a disconnect between uh putting a random number uh like i don't know 10k when you don't feel like you are at that level um versus and in you yourself never drop 10k in a program i think that's something for me that was indicative i always ask my clients i did you pay 10k yourself because if you did then i get it because you yourself did that investment in yourself so you can talk from that place if you did that but if you never did that it's going to be really really hard to be selling that to someone. What do you think about that?

I think you're 100% spot on about the fact that if we haven't yet risen to the level that we're asking our potential clients to rise to, there's always going to be that lack of congruence and it's going to be really hard to sell. It reminds me of when I was a director of sales, there was someone on my team who we hired who was really struggling. And I was working with him for probably a couple months, honestly, and giving him all the best tactics that I had for sales. And he just wasn't doing very well. And, you know, the rest of the team was doing fine, but he was really struggling. And I remember one day we, we hopped on a call and I was like, look, man, like we really need to figure out like whether or not

this is going to work. Cause if not, like, I don't think we can continue this. And he started opening up and he said, Jason, you know, I gotta be honest with you. Like I grew up in a family, we didn't make a lot of money and I don't really feel like I would buy what we're selling. And that was a big moment because it suddenly became very clear why he wasn't able to sell anybody. So the, I think the number one is like, you have to walk your walk. Like as a, as a business coach, there's a reason I've invested tens of thousands of dollars in my own coaching. So when I show up on a call, not just because it works, like it, it a hundred percent works and that's why I do it. And I've gotten enough ROI to make it a hundred percent worth my while. But when I show up on calls, selling people on the

value of coaching, it's not just from this theoretical place. It's like, Hey, I walked the walk. So I've been on the other side of this conversation and I've made the leap myself. So there's a sense of conviction and confidence that comes from that. Now, the other thing I'll add to this is when it comes to like how much to charge, sometimes we can get very self-focused in the way that we think about pricing. And the way that I lead my clients through setting rates is we do really think about like first and foremost, what is the value of the transformation that you're creating for somebody else? Because sometimes people think, well, I can't charge 10K

or I can't charge 20K. I'm not worth that. But when we look at like, well, what are you actually doing for somebody else? Like, let's say you're a weight loss coach and you're helping somebody lose 50 pounds. Well, what's the consequence of them not actually getting that help? I mean, they may not live another 10 years, or maybe they're not able to take hikes with their kids. And so their relationship with their kids isn't where it should be. Or, you know, they're feeling embarrassed and shameful to speak up at work because they don't feel like they can stand confidently in their worth. So they're getting passed up for that promotion that might be costing them $20,000 a year. So when we start thinking about what's the value of the real transformation that we're

providing, and then we think backwards from that, sometimes $10,000 feels like a drop in the bucket. Sometimes when we get tripped up on price, it's because we're thinking about it, we're too focused on ourselves. We're thinking too much about, you know, Hey, I'm not worth this or I'm not. And we forget that what people are really buying into is not us. It's a result in their lives. So really thinking about it in, in the lens, in the context of like, what is the result that we're creating for somebody? What is that worth for them? And

then pricing as, as a percentage of that value. Yeah, no, definitely. I agree with you on that. And, and a lot of the coaches have difficulty is to really map out that transformation. I don't know if you've seen that in your practice, but yes, like I've been like, literally like no sad smiley face to a happy smiley face. And I'm like, this is the path of happiness. Like, let's see together. How do you get there? And what's how am I going to feel once I get to the happy smiley face? And look, I mean, not to throw anybody under the bus here, because I think the main challenge that we all struggle with coaches, whether it's your coach or whether you're a service provider or whatever it is you do, we all get too close to our own stuff. And it's very hard to see your own situation, your own value, your own, the work that you do in an objective way when you're the one doing it. So I think having, whether it's you, whether it's me, whether it's

somebody else who is in their corner, like being able to just like, this is why I hire business coaches. This is why I've worked with business coaches. Cause I need somebody to help me get out of my own way and say, Hey, like, how can I get out of the weeds of my own thing that I'm doing here and see what I'm doing in a larger context. So, um, so I found it to be super helpful. Yeah, no, I definitely agree on you with you on that. Um, um, the fact that when you are in it, you cannot zoom out and see like yourself like what does that mean and even last week I've spent about 45 minutes talking to a transformational slash intuition coach and really trying to dissect her offer like I told her what are you helping people and she gave me like a

super long sentence and I'm like I have no idea what does that mean? And I'm like dissecting, explain this to me, explain this to me, explain this to me. And by the end of the conversation, I'm like, dude, that's actually pretty cool. I kind of need a coach like that, right? But if I didn't make her explain what she's trying to sell as a coach, I would never even thought of hiring that person.

But now I'm like, yeah, intuition. That's really cool. She's actually doing some kind of psychedelic intuitive transformation thing, which is like super interesting. And I'm like, yeah, that's really cool. But like the fact that it's so abstract, how they construct it sometimes, if you are in it yes you can understand it it's just like I think in marketing when we even I seen like coaching groups people are throwing a yeah yeah you need to have a lead magnet and like a good landing page and I'm like dude do you think every people like everyone knows these terms like unless you are in marketing you

don't know these terms like what's a high converting value offer right whatever like all of these marketing terms and it's just I think the ability to bridge the gap and explain in plain simple terms like reddit explain me like I'm five style without being making it super complicated I think you're able to attract more client in in whatever you're doing, no matter which industry you are in. I think you're 100% right. And it's funny, you said speak like a five-year-old. I was going to say speak like an eight-year-old. So we're on the same wavelength for sure. We all get in this zone sometimes where it's like expert speak, where either we use a bunch of industry jargon

that people don't understand, or it's a bunch of like generic cliche stuff. Like you see a lot in the coaching space, like, you know, like break through your life or elevate your success or like, what the hell, how does that mean? I think when you can get like real specific about the transformations that you're creating for other people, whether you're a coach or anyone, I mean, it really doesn't, this is just marketing and be able to explain things in a way where it's so clear. It's not like, Hey, I'm going to help you scale to six figures. It's like, Hey, we're going to teach you how to book two to four more high ticket clients via Facebook Messenger marketing within the next 60 days.

Like that's very clear to me versus like the general broad, vague, cliche, scale to six figures, whatever it is. It's just people, it doesn't mean anything to people. Yeah, I think they are desensitized at this point um and they just like seed everywhere like getting pitched by dms and just like they seed everywhere and so they don't even respond to that and i think i love when you said all of those elements because you know you need to have a clear precise concise offer that's measurable that's you know exactly where you want to go like what you're getting like the transformation that you're getting

the time that it's required to get there and like the effort as well like if you are helping them so the less effort the short the shortest amount of time the more guarantee for the outcome and the very clear outcome if you have all these four elements it's that you then you have a great offer that you have a solid offer i think this is something that especially in the coaching business when it's like so hard to tell them so i'm like asking so how long do you think a transformation, um, like time-wise, like, can you, do you think you can put a timeframe? And they are like, I don't know. It's lifetime. It's like, well, I guess it's forever. It's, it's true. And sometimes one of the challenges that coaches experience, and we've all experienced this. I mean, I have is it's hard sometimes to quantify things in a really tangible way.

There are sometimes a little bit intangible. Like if you're working with an intuition coach, for example, like how do you nail that down in a way like where it's like, we're going from a to B in a 90 day period, it can be challenging. One of the reframes that I share with coaches a lot that I think is really helpful is sometimes another way of framing the transformation is it's not necessarily that you're creating the actual full transformation from A to B, but it's either number one, you're just taking them that next step. So what is that next step?

And what does that look like? Or we're just giving them the pathway to that transformation. So in 90 days, I'm literally going to share with you everything that you need to know in order to generate two to four more high paying clients per month without using Facebook ads, for example. So in that framing, it's subtle, but we're not promising the result in that period of time. We're basically saying, I'm giving you the roadmap, everything that you need to know in order to get to that outcome within those 90 days. So that can be a way for some coaches and some service providers where it's like, well, look, I can't guarantee that somebody is going to get to six figures or whatever it is, 90 days. It can be another way of getting at creating and painting that transformation in a way that feels more ethical. It just is more

ethical in many cases and still is compelling and actionable for people for people yeah i think that's a really awesome um way that you put it i'm definitely going to use that later because it's really thing it's really good to reframe that because it's otherwise it's extremely hard to sell because there's no like set time period of a transformation but then if it's just the next step and then moving down from then on and equipping them i think it's so much easier to sell when in quote so um if you don't mind let's move back to the ethical side of things and and really um do you think it's possible to be successful and ethical at the same time in today's world and define success for yourself like what success means to you

well if i didn't think it was possible i don't think i would be here since i know you're interviewing me for this topic. So I had a couple minutes to think about it before I got on the call. I was like, is this gonna be a difficult conversation to have? I don't think it's not possible. I think it's not only is it possible, I actually think that it's,

that's actually the success to experiencing, the path to experience the most success in business is through ethics. It's through doing the right thing. It's not sexy. People don't talk about it. But what I've seen time and time again, like I'll give you a great example. When I was a director of sales, our top performing salesperson closed more in revenue than anybody else on the team by a long shot. When I looked at the data across our entire team, I found something

that was really interesting. Out of all the people that would get on the sales calls for our team, he turned away more people, basically said, I don't think we can do business with you because I don't think we have what you need or you're not a right fit for our program. He turned away more people than anyone else on our team and had the highest revenue across our entire team. He brought in more money than anybody else. And when you think about that, it's pretty interesting, right? Because we have this idea that in order to make a bunch of money, it means we've got to like be these cutthroat salespeople or marketers. It's all about like saying the right thing to get everybody on board. But in reality, to be like super clear about, hey, here's who we serve.

Here's who we don't serve. And if we don't think we can help you, we're going to point you in a better direction instead that actually, when you look at the numbers, just based on what I saw literally with our data across our company, it actually works out and it makes more money. So, and not that that's the reason to be ethical, but just intuitively in my own experience, I mean, I, in my own business, I've seen time and time again, where you turn people away or you do the right thing, or you're honest and upfront with people and people really appreciate it and it results in more business. And so, so I think it's certainly possible to be ethical and success. What does success look like for me?

I think success looks like making a real impact in the lives of others. And success for me looks like feeling really good at the end of the day about the work that I'm doing. When I lay down at night on my pillow, how do I feel? Do I feel like I'm doing work that matters and is meaningful and is making a difference in some significant way? The biggest wins for me on a personal level have never been financial. They've always been about the times where I felt like I truly helped another person. I love working with coaches because the reason why I work with coaches is because I believe

those are the people that are really changing the world and the work that they do is so powerful. And I mean, literally, I mean, I have a client of mine who is helping people discover their life purpose and helping people who are feeling like unfulfilled and stuck at work and just feeling like they're spinning their wheels and not actually doing things that are meaningful. And like, she's saving lives, like, and we're helping her do that through enabling her to sell like a fricking boss. So for me, what feels good is not getting paid. I mean, I like getting paid. There's nothing wrong with getting paid, um,

that I need money in order to live. And I like making a lot of money, but for me, what really matters is feeling like I'm actually creating pathways for other people to experience more success in their own lives and to make a difference in the lives of other people. So that's what success is for me. And I think ethics plays hand in hand to the way that I do that, the way that I show up online, the way that I market, the way that I sell, and the way that I teach other people how to do that as well. Thank you.