On The Brink with Castle Island - Brian Flynn (Rabbit Hole) on NFTs and DeFi Customer Acquisition (EP.187)

Episode Date: March 1, 2021

Brian Flynn, the founder and CEO of Rabbit Hole, a platform for driving customer acquisition for decentralized finance protocols joins the show. In this episide we discuss: Brian's path to cryptoassets and the spark that led him to founding Rabbit Hole Views on NFTs and the use cases that we will see in the coming years Thoughts more broadly on the categories of decentralized finance that are the most enduring and likely to capture value How customer acquisition works now in DeFi and where Rabbit Hole is solving problems To learn more about Rabbit Hole visit their website and follow Brian on Twitter @Flynnjamm

Today on the podcast, I sat down with Brian Flynn, the founder and CEO of Rabbit Hole. Rabbit Hole is a company that's focused on driving customer acquisition for decentralized finance protocols. Brian is a super thoughtful person and he has a rich history in the space. So I was excited to get his views on a range of topics. We talked about NFTs. We talked about the infrastructure to support defy. Talked about his views more generally just on what's happening in the market. And I had a lot of fun with this one. I think you'll enjoy it too. So without further ado, here's my conversation with Brian Flynn. Brought down by bad mortgage investments, Lehman, which has 25,000 employees, will be liquidated.

The federal government loans American International Group, AIG, $85 billion. This is a different kind of market, and the Fed is asleep. The federal government is stepping it to stabilize Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the two mortgage giants that have been threatened by the housing crisis. The Bank of England has pumped 75 billion pounds more to Britain's ailing economy with a new round of quantitative easing. You've printed a couple trillion dollars, and all of a sudden, people start to worry. So out of this worry, we have something called the Bitcoin.

Bitcoin. All right, Brian, well, I am super excited to have you on the podcast today to discuss Rabbit Hole and Defi and just everything that's happening in the space. You've been around it for a long time. So thanks for joining us today on the podcast. Yeah, thanks for having me, Matt. Glad to be here. We're also all disclosed, very excited to be investors in what you're doing at Rabbit Hall.

So maybe just start it off for the listeners and just give a little bit of background on your career arc and how you got into this space. Growing up, I was actually a gamer and ended up doing a e-sports for a bit from high school, going into college. It always was interested in kind of the gaming angle and things. And I said my first core writing to crypto was actually in NFTs and blockchain games at Dapper Labs, because that was always kind of the most appealing sort of this intersection between crypto and gaming. I worked at Dapper Labs for about a year and a half, just working on different products from

Cheezwezweilers to Dapper Wall to Flow blockchain, but mainly kind of the main angle I was hitting on there, was trying to drive new user growth into each of the data, into each dapper product and trying to to build top of the funnel. That's kind of how I got agreement to kind of like user acquisition in general and kind of how we led to starting rabbit hole. So what is rabbit hole? There's a lot to talk about in the defy space and definitely want to hear more about the dapper lab story. But let's talk a little bit first about what you're building with rabbit hole. In the simplest form, rabbit hole is a platform to earn crypto tokens for using different defy applications. We work with projects directly for them to supply their own tokens and users complete them for completely different tasks

on chain. So we've worked with projects from NOSIS, AVE, OpenC, MACHA, and a few more coming down in the pipeline right now. That's pretty exciting. And so maybe just to step back a little bit. It's interesting that you originally came at the crypto space through the NFT lens. Do you remember what it was that originally got you to thinking that this was somewhere where you wanted to build a career in the sense of truth? It wasn't until kind of like the launch of Cryptocities where I kind of saw this evolution of people actually being encouraged in like a community or playing a game in order to earn the first bit of crypto and just seeing the types of people that were using CryptoKitties for the first time that was it definitely felt like kind of like

the first breadth of the Metaverse in some cases that kind of is like proficient today in the NFT space not many people were kind of like talking about the time besides this like huge crypto kitty craze and just going really deep into that and kind of exploring kind of this intersection between like watching games and NFTs was like really fascinating to me Kind of like the ironic part, actually, was that like, blockchain games as a whole, like, never took off in the way. It was mostly just user-generated NFTs or cryptomedia, as all people say, as sort of like this one facet of NFTs that have really been flourishing in recent months, right? This blockchain games was like, it sounded really good in theory, but like I've never really taken off for like a whole host of reasons. But yeah, it's been pretty fascinating.

You know, I wonder if it is just early for a lot of these gaming type of use cases where there were some platforms. issues to iron out. Are you long-term bullish on that being a category that we'll see applications here in blockchain space? I think there's like subcategory of blockchain games where it's the entire game itself, like runs on a smart contract. And we worked on a game at Dapper College's, but that was kind of exactly like that.

The core problem of watching game is what you need to remove the creator from actually influencing the outcome of the game in itself. So all the game logic itself needs to be stored on-chain and immutable. in a smart contract. That way, players can kind of design the interfaces and graphics engine that's being built on top of the smart contracts directly. But Ethereum isn't really a good blockchain to kind of, like, have that type of logic because of kind of limitations of the EVM.

So I think it would require more scalability to actually pull something like that off. It's interesting because NFTs have really entered, I would say, the popular culture, to some degree with the NBA top shots. And I guess there was maybe a temptation to see this as like a gimmick or something that's a fad, like people on Twitter are calling it like a Beanie Babies type of a thing. But how do you frame this for people that are just seeing it? And how do you get them to see that this is a bigger category outside of just a craze? I think it comes back to ownership at the end of the day, right? In the same way that people first understand like owning Bitcoin as you actually owning some

digital asset is the same thing of ascribing ownership to some piece of media. And once you kind of see it in that lens, then it's kind of taking a whole nother level, right? in the same way that like owning the same Mona Lisa has some relevance. The Mona Lisa captures all the original value. And you're taking pictures of the Mona Lisa as the equivalent of like copying and pasting and media image, right? It kind of brings back value toward the original image or piece of media in itself. This whole craze going around with NFTs right now, a lot of it has to do with just

limitations of digital scarcity. A lot of people like this feeling of digital scarcity having a photo effect. And these platforms are designing artificial scarcity around these different NFTs. To say that sustainable or not is kind of a different question, but it definitely shows the kind of the impacts of NFTs as a category and the kind of the effects it has on a consumer. So I think it will definitely grow from here. And the creators are definitely going to be floating a space. I think musicians in general are eyeing the space the most just because of their huge fan bases that are trying to get some digital memorabilia. So it should be pretty exciting how

kind of the space grows in the next year or so. I'm fascinated by it. It's a great use case for blockchain from a memetic value perspective because a lot of people have had experience with analog collectibles. People have collected stamps and baseball cards and magic cards and all sorts of stuff. You don't have to explain public-private key cryptography necessarily in order to just get this. Where do you see this going, I guess, over the next five years? And I'd also be curious your view on where value accrues here. Is this the creators that really stand to benefit the most from this invention? Right now, I think you're seeing a lot of creators come into this space and kind of link out their Instagram pages and that the inner of the past work and people are kind of ascribing

value to their digital art based on their previous work as well and trying to see how much reputation they have. What starts to happen is that all these creators start to move essentially everything on chain and these platforms are sort of trying to campaign themselves, trying to have a home for these creators and use them as the issuing platforms. You're seeing this battle in these different platforms right now to kind of win the issuing war. Wherever the issuing is actually being done from the NFT minting point, it is kind of where a lot of this value is going to accrue in the first place, because that is kind of the original piece of creation in a lot of these cases.

The next question here is, what does this look like in five years from now? I think we'll reach a point where there's more NFT minters than there are collectors in themselves. I think right now it's probably like 5% issuers and minors and like 95% collectors. I think that will quickly majority be mentors in about, you know, probably like a year or two once NFT creators in general across the board would just see how lucrative this opportunity is and how much people are willing to actually use this stuff. At that point, I think there's going to be this huge opportunity for curation across the board. The platform is basically being able to kind have this showcase different galleries of here's like a Dow. It was like a record label, right,

being able to say like here are the top 10 songs that were minted last week and then have like built-in affiliate models actually buy those songs as well, right? It's going to get pretty weird on the curation level of just like built-in affiliate fees and model and different types of incentive mechanisms to get people to buy and share these different types of crypto media. I think it's going to be fascinating to watch. I mean, you could think about the early days of the web, maybe as an analogy for some of the things that are about to happen, where value will accrue to the portal type of sites maybe initially that do a good job curating and understanding what's actually in existence on these various blockchains and surfacing leaderboards and things like

that. And maybe that kind of leads to just like a generalized search for these type of things. Do you see that as being a potential path here? Yeah. So the search opportunity, it's pretty ironic because like a search kind of open the plug gates for web, but being able to search individual pieces of cryptomedia is going to be sort of this emerging use case. Right now, we kind of use ether scan or any block explorers essentially as sort of like a form of search, but block explorers might get a whole lot more specialized in the form of search as well, right? And probably a lot more vertical specific in some cases. I think about block explorers is almost the predecessor to search engines in some ways.

And we'll see. And I think you're right that there's going to be all sorts of ways that surfacing these insights will result in a transaction on the back of it. So the business model is potentially pretty lucrative if you can figure that out, I think. Let's talk a little bit more about rabbit hole. Where did this original idea come from? What was sort of your inspiration for this? It first started back when I was working at Dabro Labs. We spent a lot of time trying to quantify the value of individual Ethereum addresses. And we often try to figure out how much we needed to incentivize users to kind of move over into our own applications. So we'll look at the wallets of some individuals and say, oh, this person owns, you know, these NFTs holds this balance. I've done

these transactions. So they're probably have a high LTV for us if they were willing to convert and to use our application. Right. So we would design different promotional mechanics kind of around that. But just kind of like playing with that same mindset, you start thinking about the opportunity to kind of just create that for Ethereum and other blockchains in the more very general level of being able just to quantify the value of different Ethereum addresses and the transaction history is sort of like a reputation layer and then service different opportunities to actually earned tokens for having this kind of rich transaction history. So sort of our thesis in some cases is that transaction history is sort of the new on-chain resume. We're looking to be workers or

contributors in these new networks, right, and actually have it in earned tokens. So the more we transact on chain, the more we're having this rich profile, then the more opportunities will get to actually earn tokens and the owners in these networks. This is fascinating because these networks in some ways, they behave like companies, some ways they behave like collectives, I guess in some ways they behave like almost city states or something within themselves. But none of it really works without customer acquisition and people participating and actually running the software and doing things on these networks. So what is kind of the alternative from a customer acquisition perspective?

Kind of what is the next best thing right now besides a rabbit hole, the thing that you're improving on? The standard right now is to sort of do this retroactive token distribution in a lot of cases for these projects. Uniswob 1 inch and a lot of these other aggregators, you know, they're constantly fighting each other for acquisition. One inch this past week just did a retroactive AirDrop to try to steal users away from USOP who haven't used 1 inch so far. So you're kind of like seeing this battle for acquisition between protocols already and people throw a lot of money at it. The problem with a retroactiveirdrop is that you start weighing every address the same.

So you say that this user is the same as this user just because they've done these same two contract interactions. There's a much more rich transaction history actually there. You could start weighing that that user actually perform an action. I think the other problem of the active distributions is it doesn't engage the user to take an action besides actually claiming the reward in itself. That opportunity to give out some tokens should be more of like an activation opportunity to say the user like, hey, now you can earn these tokens because you've done this in the past, as long as you engage with our product in a much more real and visible way, a much more tangible way. And I think that's the core thing that's missing from a lot of these acquisition method is a protocol. across the board are giving away so much money. And even in the quitting mining, right? Just think about

how much money is giving away the quitting mining right now. The users are not sticking around. These are kind of these sticky incentives that the protocols are throwing at different projects, but it's not actually needing to participation in a lot of these cases. There are much better incentive mechanisms to design around for acquisition kind of across the board. With air drops, I almost think about some of the non-blockchain examples of quote-unquote air drops that we've seen over the years. And you could look at the privatization of industries in Russia, actually, in sort of how the voucher models worked. And it turns out that a lot of the people that got those vouchers didn't really value them and just kind of chucked them immediately. And it ended up

that a lot of wealth ended up being very concentrated. And so do you see that as sort of a byproduct, inadvertent byproduct of some of these customer acquisition campaigns around token air drops that people generally just don't care about them? And there's going to be like an aggregation of just users. With these AirDrop models, actually, a lot of people have been figuring out this sort of this template and have been trying to do more simple attacks across networks as a whole. So they'll create hundreds, if not, like thousands of addresses to interact with different projects in networks, just so they're anticipating a retroactive air drop in the future, right? And these projects, they can't really tell if it's like a symbol or not. To them, they're just seen as another address,

right, as a whole, right? They've actually no visibility if they're unique, uses or not. The more that projects do these retroactive distributions, the more they're encouraging a civil attack on their network. That's just leading to a couple individuals holding the most of the tokens on their network, which is terrible for the sustainability of the network is the whole, right? It's starting to feel like that a little bit already. Even like same with like liquidity mining incentives. Liquity mining incentives, you know, you have a few whales who are kind of doing most of the liquidity mining right now. A lot of them just kind of keep their money in air and it's they're not really selling for the most part. They just keep giving their money from one protocol to the next,

just having the huge TVL metrics. Projects like that because they just want to show off their TVL sort of this huge, you know, not any metric across the board, right? Although retail users are just getting priced out because it's just these huge gas force going on in Ethereum, right? So it's just these huge handful of whales who are kind of doing most of the action on these D5 protocols right now across the board. That wealth gap is definitely starting to occur and having this gentrification going on in Ethereum today. And it's crazy because to your point, it just looks like growth if you're one of these protocols, I'm sure. And there's no way to figure out who's on the back end of it. It's crazy.

I want to talk a little bit about some of the centralized models on this. So in some ways, and I'm sure you've gotten this a lot, it kind of reminds me of earn.com, the centralized coin is acquired by Coinbase. So maybe talk a little bit about that. Was there some inspiration in that model? And I guess compare and contrast them. We kind of compare ourselves as sort of like the on-chain version of Coinbase Earn sometimes. The difference is obviously you watch videos to get tokens, but in our cases, you're actually using these protocols and doing the first-time action to get the tokens as a whole, right? The difference, I think, is two things.

One, when you have the rich transaction history, you can actually start waiting if these users are going to be engaging in the protocol, so you can do better segmentation and targeting at a high level, right, with these different users, which you can't do in a Web 2 sense. And the other thing is that you can have much more interesting token distribution methods with Web3 than you can and Web 2. For example, like we're planning on integrating superfluid, which is a programmable money streaming protocol similar to savior, and that way we can have on-chain investing with our token distributions as well, right?

So instead of, you know, a user doing a campaign, so much to point in return and getting, you know, $100 awards, now they can get $1,000 awards, but stream to them over a period of a year or so, right? And that will also lead to higher retention in each of these networks as well, because they're more willing to engage with the network if they have the tokens for a longer period of time and more going to protocol instead of just selling straight on the spot,

which usually is the case. There's just a lot more of Greenfield to play with when you're kind of doing this in a Web 3 version. Maybe just talk a little bit about the product as it is right now. Sort of what is a user experience that is available to people if they go on? The experience is right now is we have a handful of different protocols interact and gain XP. So we have Ave, Masha, OpenC,

Noesis, Compound, and Uniswap, and by doing each of the core basic interactions on each of these networks, whether it's like swapping or lending or borrowing or minting, selling sort of the positive some actions each of these networks, you're getting XP to your profile. And this XP to your profile is sort of building this rich transaction history of your profile that I mentioned that will enable you for future token distribution opportunities. And then we can start segmenting in different categories as well, saying like you've done a certain amount of swapping interactions, you've done some amount of lending interactions, you might be eligible for this, you know, token opportunity from a new protocol kind of down the line, right?

Every once in a while, we have these campaigns so you can actually earn tokens for completing different interactions for the first time, as long as you're ready to be verified and unique. And we'll be rolling out more of those types of campaigns starting in the first week of March, along with our new redesign. So it's pretty exciting. Yeah, I definitely recommend people check it out. I think it's a great interface.

You brought up some of the verification. I want to talk and get your views on identity. How important or not important is real ID when it comes to on-chain addresses? And how do you see this evolving as sort of a narrative within the community? It's a pretty big and immediate topic. I think in our cases, we see identity playing out in two different ways, right? I think we'll see sort of this public identity emerge in some cases where a lot of users are okay with sharing their wallet balances, their contract interactions, protocol politicians and

NFT issuers and mentors and creators kind of like fall under the spectrum. Like they're okay with kind of showing what they have. And the other side of things, it's more of these private transactions where people are kind of have this more privacy financial life to themselves, right? And so I think we'll see these two sides of identity actually emerge and have two different sides of them as well, right? I think the public identity will get merged with what's called DIDs. And so DIDs essentially being able to have verifiable credentials attached to some identity, right? So you can have, you know, a Ethereum address and say a near protocol address, like all linked out to a single DID with your Twitter verification and your Discord verification, even like K.C, all attached to one DID that's

plugged all across different protocols as well. So I think a lot of the identity is going to move in that direction and we're planning to kind of like go that route as ball for Rabidol. A private identity is sort of going to go in completely the other direction, other side of the spectrum. And Rabbit all's sake, We're strictly focused on this public VID side of things. So we really do believe in this on-chain resume, being very transparent with your transaction history to get future opportunities, especially if you treat, you know, decentralized work, like real work in itself.

That's a fascinating answer. Do you see there being sort of a battleground here between DID providers? And how is that shaking out so far? I know that there are some centralized efforts like Microsoft has one, I think. And what's sort of the lay of the land for that right now? I'm not too well-versweet with what Microsoft and the interest companies are doing right now. I know on the Web3 standpoint, there are companies like ceramic, the protocol that three boxes building,

and Spruce is kind of the one where they have this credible law for Veripod credentials. You're definitely going to see those two camps, trying to move across the board. Identity is basically a standard at the end of the day. You know, people are going to try to have to rally around like a single standard, right? And DID is a standard in itself, but there's a lot of infrastructure that needs to be built around DIDs to kind of make it sustainable. So you're definitely going to have a lot of people just trying to enforce DIDs across the board.

It's most likely that governments might have one DID for your passport, but Web3 might have a completely new DID, right? And I think, like, we'll definitely, in the same way that you'll have like a stable coin from the Fed, right? And you have a stable coin like Web3 cents. I think you'll have that same clash

sort of happening on the identity front as well. That's going to be fascinating to watch. It sort of feeds into my next question, which is just around the infrastructure and tooling that is required for you to build Rabbit Hall. And Metamask comes to mind as something that is sort of a key feature, at least the way I use the product. So maybe talk a bit about just the tooling to onboard users and where that is and where you see it going. We're a strong believer in that blockchain is like a new power light shift and like a very strong technology that we should lean into it as heavily as possible. Our early version of Rabbit Hole, we basically just had metatransmit.

We have basically we automated and have it all built into the interface and made it very simple to kind of do transactions and complete these different things. And then we went to complete in the other side of the spectrum and instead like we're educating the user on what they're actually doing to complete a lot of these tasks at hand. So that means educating a lot about the noxity wallets like MetaMass and the Rainbow and other a lot of these wall types wallets, right? Educating a lot about gas and why you should get by gas instead of incorporating the. made of transactions to pay for gas, really trying to lean into as much as possible, right? From the user perspective, that's like a huge side of it, right? It's just understanding what's actually required to actually complete a transaction and kind of see it as a whole new way to actually complete work in itself.

You brought up fees, and that was something I wanted to get your take on, is just the fee landscape in general on public blockchains. It's something that I think is very poorly understood. Obviously, this impacts just daily usability to some degree. particularly with small dollar transactions. So how do you think about just fees and how that plays into your business model and customer acquisition? It's definitely a huge issue for us.

The good thing is that if it affects us, it's affecting everyone as a whole. And it's not like products aren't getting less money because the fees are actually just getting more because people are willing to spend more. This business model is just using gas price as sort of the baseline metric and a baseline to in order to predict our revenue. So if it costs $100 in gas to do a certain transaction on rabbit hole, then a user might get $150 or $200 for actually completing the campaign in itself. So we use the gas cost as sort of the basis point.

So then if the gas costs were to move up by 100 way than the next week, then we can even bump it up 50% even more for like the next campaign, right? So then you're getting $2 to $50 for kind of completing campaign instead. And so projects are largely fine with that, right? It's just where the problem comes into place in those spaces is when you're a brand new retail user coming into the first time and you're seeing a $200 transaction for just like experimenting with something that looks like a game, right? You're just like, why is this transaction $200? I think I'm getting scammed. I want my money back.

There's a lot of those types of users in our discord as a whole. It's just a usability challenge that I guess will be addressed over time through scaling solutions, probably also just better wallet software and fee estimation. and things like that. It's probably what people felt like in the early days of the internet using command lines and dial-up modems and things like that. But hopefully there's light at the end of the tunnel. On Defi itself, when you think about this as an entrepreneur building in the space, what kind of categories and protocols are the most compelling to you?

And which ones, either from a category perspective or individual protocols, do you see as likely to be the most enduring? There's a lot of competition right now in the cross-derivatives, lending stable client. I think there's a lot of the variants that you're hiring you kind of approach each of those. A lot of this meta-capture comes at the end of day, is this going to be around participation in each of these communities, how it's going to be sustainable? There's going to reach a point probably in the next six to 12 months where you see a lot competition and a project start turning on fees and a lot of token or puller starts going towards

the tokens directly. And that's when things get interesting. I don't think we've reached that point yet in D5. I think fees are still zero across the board for a lot of these tokens. It's going to be up to the communities to decide, like, and governance really decide, like, how this actually plays into it. I think it's really early to say how that actually plays out and work with it's actually an opportunity here because there actually is a lot of competition

across the board right now in D5 specifically. It's just really interesting to see the various categories almost being defined first and then you have competition within those categories. That's probably from the outside in. That's been the most interesting to me that you just have an entire category get put on a map and then all of a sudden talented entrepreneurs

are flocking to it. I don't know if it feels that way from the inside. Let's talk and maybe just get your view on just the current UX for Defi. How do you see that evolving over time? Obviously, you guys are working hard at this, but there's other things that are necessary around you from the protocols themselves. How do you think about that in the context of expanding the addressable market just by making some of the stuff easier to use?

The interesting thing about Web 3 UX in general is that a lot of these, like, initial people who actually designed smart contracts and deploy smart markets, and deploy smart contracts, actually don't want to be where the front end actually is or where the user actually is, right? Because they do want to be decentralized. They want third-party developers actually building new interfaces on top of their deploy smart contracts and have a vibrant ecosystem around it. So you look at a protocol like curve, which has a really, really bad UX, but it's almost done on purpose in some instances. Because what they're trying to do is they're trying to encourage third-party developers to build better interface and build better experiences

on top of their smart contracts, right? Because they want to get better developer adoption kind of across the board. I think the issue comes in. There's not many good incentives for third-party developers to build on top of smart contracts. That's kind of where the issue is. You can always get like a token grant or something from these protocols. You know, that only goes like a certain amount away. You can only go like a month or so.

And then you run out money and then there's like, you know, anything else you do you don't want to work on anymore. I think in general it will be improved over time as long as there's like incentives for like developers to like build on top of smart contracts. It does feel like early parts of the way. or it's just, everything is kind of just like thrown together and very clunky. And you're just navigating like 20 different interfaces at once with all these different tabs open to actually under like do one transaction.

Honestly, it might remain that way for a long period of time until like wallets, maybe mobile wallets or things about masks will actually make it easier to do all these things in like single transaction. Zapper is actually one good example of this that Zapper makes really easy to do like, if you want to do liquid mining, you can do that in one transaction and make it super simple to go from straight each to kind of being an illiquity pool, right? So I think you'll see more of those types of contract interactions as a whole. Those are probably the best types of like UX improvements like going on today.

As you were answering that, I was almost thinking that that's the wrong question to ask because you think about what's the UX for SMTP? Well, it's pretty bad, but Gmail is pretty good. And I guess in a lot of ways, when this is ultimately successful at scale, then we're talking about you'd be logging on to some sort of a platform and taking out a loan from a decentralized finance protocol. And ultimately, like, who really cares what that underlying protocols, UX looks like, as long as your interface works, I guess. Yeah, exactly. Brad, well, this is fascinating. I think the customer acquisition angle here is one that is so important for these things to actually gain scale. So what you're doing is really important.

Where can we send people to learn more about rabbit hole? And I know you have some job racks that are open. Where can people find out more? You can find it more at rabbit hole.g. We have a couple links in the Twitter of website where you can learn more. There's some blog post there. There's some job opening. So, you'll be here check that out.

We also have a Twitter handle and Repitole underscore Gigi. So you can check that out as well. Awesome. Well, this has been fun. Thanks so much for joining us. Yeah. Thanks for having me, Matt. Thanks for listening to another episode of On the Brink with Castle Island.

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