On The Brink with Castle Island - Chris Maurice (Yellow Card) on Stablecoin Adoption in Africa (EP.641)

Episode Date: July 2, 2025

Chris Maurice, founder of Yellow Card, a pan-Africa stablecoin business and exchange, rejoins the show. In this episode: How Chris feels about the crypto space in 2025 as compared to when he started a decade ago How Yellow Card evolved from being a retail BTC exchange to being an enterprise payment platform for stablecoins How Chris realized that stablecoins were all about b2b transfers How businesses in EM use stablecoins, and what the alternatives are Regional differences within Africa in terms of stablecoin adoption Shifting regulatory attitudes in Africa Does Chris worry about crypto-dollarization in Africa? Is dollarization happening on the ground right now Tether and TRON market share developments Where we are in stablecoin infra and tooling and what needs to be built Why we need a stablecoin clearinghouse The future of Yellow Card a few years ahead How banks will engage with stablecoins

Hello and welcome back to On the Brink. This is Nick Carter. Today I'm sitting down with Chris Maurice, the founder of Yellow Card, Africa's premier crypto exchange and stable coin payments company, active in a number of countries across Africa. Chris rejoins the podcast after four years to talk about how his business has evolved and how African businesses are interacting with stable coins in the real world. We're really glad to have Chris back at this fascinating time when stable coins are inflecting, especially in emerging markets. He always has So it's a great perspective. Let's dive right in. Chris Maurice, welcome back to the show. You came on the show in 2021. I don't know if you remember. Did an episode with Ria back then. So anyway, welcome back. It's good to be here. You know, I mean, unfortunately, nothing's really changed since 2021. So I mean, it's probably going to be the same show. Yeah. So if I recall correctly, you've been in crypto for well over a decade now. How does now in 2025 feel in terms of excitement, like maturity, traction. How does it feel to you after 10 years, more than 10 years of doing this? Yeah, man. I mean, so I got into the space back in, back in 2013, right? And I think,

you know, it has, I mean, it's, it's been through every cycle. I mean, as you know, right, you've been, you've been in a similar amount of time, right? So, I mean, you know, we've been through every cycle, every, you know, up and down roller coaster and all of that. And, you know, I, you know, I think 2015 or 2025, sorry, feels special. And, you know, I know, look, I think a lot of people say this every time that, you know, if the industry is doing well and trending. But, you know, the reason that I'm excited about is I feel like this is the first time that the industry has actually focused on practical use cases.

And I think that, you know, a lot of the focus that you're seeing now on stable coins and things like that speak to that. You know, whereas so many of the cycles before were about, you know, what, meme coins and NFTs and, you know, ICOs and all this other stuff that was not providing sort of real practical use cases for, I mean, pretty much anybody, right, but certainly not for the majority of people. And, you know, now with stable coins, you're seeing, you know, so much more institutional adoption coming into the space in, you know, a secure way, right? And so I think it's made, you know, a big difference having a technology that's actually, you know, stable and paid to the dollar as sort of entryway for people into the space versus, you know, meme coins.

Right. So since you last did our show in the last four years, how is Yellow Card's product and business? itself changed. Yeah, I mean, we've, we've also come a very long way in a, you know, a short amount of time, right? So, I mean, I think, you know, look, when we were talking back in 2021, we were still pretty much fully focused on retail, right? When we started out, we were doing, you know, retail exchange and we were focused on how do you, you know, essentially take the Coinbase model, right, and, you know, replicate that into markets that, that don't have access to, you know to coin base and to platforms like that and you know now uh we are i mean you know fully

focused on businesses right and we're fully focused on how do you drive more of that institutional adoption and you know so much of that came on the back of stable coins so you know we listed stable coins back in 2020 right so you know i mean really right around uh you know right around that time And I remember, you know, the first day that we listed UST, because before that we were 100% Bitcoin, right? We were doing just Bitcoin exchange, right? Essentially the coin-based model. Nobody wanted the theory. We had a theory of nobody wanted it. So sorry to, you know, the ETH people out there. But that is the harsh reality on the ground outside of, you know, outside of the U.S., right? Nobody wanted it. It was all Bitcoin, 100% Bitcoin. And the first day that we listed USDT, we went to see. 70% Bitcoin, 30% USDT. And that was, I've been a pretty big jump for one day, right?

And then, you know, as it went on, four months later, we were doing 100% USDT. 99.9% of our transactions were on stable coins four months later. So, I mean, it was a complete swap in such a short amount of time to stable coins. And that's what really made us start thinking and, you know, looking at what is the actual use case here? What are people actually doing with this technology? Because clearly it's not trading, right? Clearly it's not a speculative use case if everybody's buying dollars. And so we started digging into it.

We started looking more and we realized that the use case here is businesses. The use case here is businesses, small businesses, large businesses, whatever size that need to make payments, that need to make international payments, need to send money across borders, settle invoices, send money to friends, family, et cetera, and other parts of the world. And so, you know, we just dove in on that, right? And that became, that became the sole focus of how do you, how do you work with businesses to improve their operations, to improve their internal treasury, improve the way that they make international payments, improve the way that they access dollars? It's so interesting because this is literally the number one question we get about stable coins

Who are the real world individuals or firms that are using them? Is it just for crypto speculation? Or is there a real economic use case? And I feel like you are on the front lines of this. So can you maybe just like give us a bit of color on like what's the alternative? Like your clients, the businesses that use yellow card, what would they be doing otherwise? And how is it better now that they have stable coins? Yeah. So that's, I mean, look, that's a great question. And I think, you know, that's always, again, that's always, like you said, that's always the pushback that you hear in the space is, you know, what are the actual practical applications of this stuff, right? What are the actual use cases of this stuff? And I think that, you know, with stable coins, you know, what it's doing in practice is it's replacing the way that people interact with the U.S. dollar. It's completely changing the way that people interact with the U.S. dollar.

So, you know, the businesses that we work with across emerging markets, right, across Africa, you know, Southeast Asia, South America, Middle East, any of these parts of the world, you know, look, we specialize in operating in countries where you can't walk into a bank and make an international payment, right, where you can't, you know, walk in and access dollars, right, either because of illiquidity, because of, you know, disconnectivity from Swift, any other number of reasons. And so, you know, what we focus on is working with these businesses. to help them be able to make those payments in a way that doesn't require the income system, which doesn't work for them.

You know, Swift and correspondent banking were not set up for, you know, Argentina and Nigeria and Hongo, right? It was set up for the U.S., it was set up for Europe and other developed economies. And so, you know, the alternative and, you know, frankly what people did before, right? Because nobody was sitting twiddling their thumbs waiting for us to exist and waiting for this technology. You know, what people did before is they went to the informal market. And you see this across so many of the countries that we operate and you see this in, I mean, generally in, you know, emerging markets.

It's, you know, essentially Hawala, right? If you're familiar with like a whole walla and that system, right? But, you know, I mean, essentially, you know, hey, I know Nick. And Nick has an uncle in the UK. So I'm going to give Nick money locally. and then Nick's uncle is going to give my guy money in the UK. And look, I'm sure your uncle's a lovely guy, right? I'm sure he's great.

Maybe he's perfectly capable of facilitating those transactions. But I don't think I need to explain to anybody why Nick's uncle is not the best way to... Yeah, I do actually have an uncle in the UK, believe it or not. But I don't think he's engaging in Huala. So I guess across like Africa, I mean, people treat as a... monolith, which obviously it's not. In terms of different usage modes across the continent, do you notice any regional differences and how your clients are using stable coins? Is it different in Nigeria versus Kenya versus South Africa? What do you notice there? Are there regional differences at

all? You know, I think the main differences are in the way that, people adopt the technology more than it is the actual use cases. Right. I think that, you know, in general, again, you know, this, you know, stable coins are changing the way that people interact with the dollar, right, regardless of, you know, regardless of how they interact with the dollar today or regardless of anything like that. So from that standpoint, it's the same. And frankly, it's the same that, you know, the same way that we see it in, you know,

parts of Southeast Asia and South America and, you know, other parts of the world. I think that the big regional differences that we've seen are more around West Africa, right? In general, people are just a lot more aggressive about, you know, adopting new technology, right? And you see this all the time across, you know, Nigeria and other markets, right? They're always sort of first to, you know, to be on top of new tech and, you know, new ways of, you know, improving efficiencies and doing things better. So I think, you know, we've seen, I mean, just aggressive growth from that region from the beginning, right? And even now, right, I mean, you guys did a lot of work with Visa on, you know, the report about Nigeria, you know, how dominant those countries are in the stable coin space, right? And so I think, you know, West Africa, you see just a lot of adoption, right? People are, you know, this is a technology that solves a lot of problems.

So people are finding ways to fit it in to their existing infrastructure, to their existing flows. I think in, you know, static, right, and, you know, Southern Africa. So, you know, hey, you're people, man. That's, you know, where you're from, right? So, you know, that area, right, you see a lot more sort of willingness to regulate. Right. And I think that, you know, the adoption, not to say that it's been slow, it's been, you know, slower relative to like West Africa.

but it's also, you know, the way that they adopted is a little bit different, right? The government is a little bit more on top of how do you regulate this stuff. And so, you know, that's, I mean, look, you know, we got the first license on the continent of Botswana. And that was, I mean, three years ago now. That was in 2022. Since then, you know, South Africa has developed a license. Namibia has a license. Zambia is sandboxing.

You have, you know, Swatini has, how do you say, sandboxing? and, you know, regulatory, you know, some formulation of a regulatory landscape coming out for the space. And so we've seen, you know, a lot of that in that region, right? And then I think in, you know, East Africa, you know, again, now you're starting to see it, right? People, you know, work within the system a lot more closely in, you know, sort of that part of the continent. And so you're starting to see more ways that this technology is being implemented into banks, right? And I think that, you know, moving forward for that region, that's going to be a big piece of really driving adoption is making sure that banks and other sort of incumbent players are utilizing and sort of offering this space rather than just, how do you say, you know, going directly to the people. So how have regulatory attitude shifted in the last kind of three, four years?

I mean, obviously, it depends on the country. But, you know, we've seen various periods of pressure. And, you know, in some cases, sort of like blame casting of crypto for inflationary episodes and then periods of loosening pressure. Where would you say we are today on the continent in terms of regulatory attitudes to, let's just say, stable coins? Yeah. I mean, I think if you, you know, if you look. broadly across the continent, right? So, you know, look, what I tell people is prior to November,

there was no better place in the world to, you know, run a company in crypto, right? I think that that is, it's a combination of the number and the depth of regulation across so many of the countries on the continent. Right. And this was, you know, again, before November at a time when, you know, the U.S. was fighting it, Europe was fighting it. Everybody else was fight. Right. And so, you know, largely you've seen, you know, central banks and other applicable regulators embracing the technology and understanding the benefits that it brings to job growth, to job creation, to, you know, economic development, all of that. And yeah, I mean, you know, look, you're always going to have, you're always going to have people that, you know, want to blame issues on new technology that, you know, has only

been around for a little while, you know, much shorter time than those issues. But I think, you know, outside of, outside of that, if you look at the general trend, especially over the past three years, there's just been a massive sea change in favor of regulation, right? And you're seeing this, you know, with the SEC out of Nigeria, that's done a lot of great work around regulating the space. You're seeing this in, you know, Kenya, right? Where we have. help draft the bill that's in in parliament that goes into goes as far as to go into payments, right? And, you know, get a lot more specific about, you know, the space and how things should be regulated and all of that. And so, yeah, I mean, you know, look, overall, I would say from a

regulatory perspective, right, even Morocco where, you know, in North Africa, right, is I'm sure you know, you know, different system of law in, you know, the, you know, North African and Muslim countries and it's you know those are the only four countries that have made this technology illegal at any point right in Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia and Egypt. Even there, Morocco has a bill coming through, right, that, you know, we've done a lot of work with, you know, the central bank there and hada Jara Wafa, the large commercial bank on, you know, how do you embrace this technology? How do you embrace innovation in a safe way, right? How do you do this in a way that, you know, is not going to hurt banks locally.

How do you do this in a way that's not going to hurt the economy? And I think, you know, that has, you know, that's culminated in a bill that, you know, hopefully by the end of the year, you'll have, you know, full regulatory regime for this technology in Morocco, right? So, you know, it's not just companies around the world that are, you know, coming around to this tech. It's also countries. It's also, you know, there's, I mean, to some extent, there's a race, right? There's a race to, you know, to reap the benefits from it, right? Everybody knows what the Internet did for the U.S. economy because the U.S. was the first country to really embrace it, right?

And we invented it. But, you know, I mean, other than that. And so, you know, I think that, you know, countries are, countries are, how do you say, trying to position themselves similarly to make sure that, you know, those benefits land within their borders. And I don't want to be too provocative, but maybe I will be. So I'm sure you have conversations with central bankers focus on dollarization. And my guess is there's some degree of concern around that. I mean, nobody wants to lose monetary sovereignty. How do you allay those concerns when you get those questions? Yeah. So in practice, we're not seeing this technology dollarize on the ground. Right. I know, Look, some people disagree with me on this, but I tell people it'll be a cold day in hell before you walk into a coffee shop in Nairobi and you're paying for your latte with, you know, Bitcoin or USDC or anything like that, right? It's just not a future state that, you know, I necessarily subscribe to at least any time

in the near future. And you're not seeing any signs of it on the ground, right? You know, the reality is that domestic payments, local payments in most parts of the world outside of the U.S., which, you know, where they're terrible, work extremely well, right? You have, you know, if you're in Kenya, you have M-Pesa, which is great. I can pay for anything, right? From, you know, a taxi to a movie to a, you know, restaurant or whatever, right? I can pay for anything.

In, you know, so many other countries, you have mobile money, right? You have, you know, UPI in India. You have picks in Brazil. You have, you know, all of these various, you know, tools. and options for domestic money transfer. So domestic money transfer overall works pretty well. And it's just very ingrained, right? Everybody's already using it.

I think that where stable coins come in and where stable coins clearly are making an impact today in these markets, it's with international payments. And the reality is that international payments are broken for most of the world. Look, even in the U.S., it's not like they're great. Right. I mean, you know, sure. Like if you're sending money from the U.S. to Europe, you know, I can do that through my J.P. Morgan account and it works totally fine, right? It's like not that hard. But, you know, for pretty much, I mean, everywhere of the world, domestic, international payments just suck, right? These correspondent systems were not intended for, you know, emerging markets. They were not intended for these countries and largely exclude them. And so that's really where you're seeing the impact of stable coins. Is it, you know, anything that crosses borders. It's helping, you know, critical imports, food, medicine,

you know, other consumer goods, enter countries more easily. It's helping those invoice payment flows, you know, facilitate faster, right? It's cutting out delays. It's, you know, it's fixing a lot of the problems in the incumbent system for international payments. You don't have those problems for domestic payments. So there's just not as much of a, you know, a demand to use dollars locally. But yeah, I mean, what I do firmly believe is that this technology is not replacing local currencies. It's replacing correspondent banking. It's replacing swift. It's replacing and completely changing the way that, you know, you and I interact with the dollar.

So when let's look at the Nigeria case study, I guess, as an example. Like when you sell the benefits of this technology, I mean, you know, you're looking at a young online population, very entrepreneurial. Do you see stable coins, you know, helping that population integrate with, you know, the rest of the world in terms of both import, export, and then like payroll, like developers in Nigeria working for foreign firms getting paid. It's like that's kind of the story you're telling. Is that also supported by the data you see?

Yeah. I mean, look, that's what's happening in practice, right? Is, you know, look, what I like to tell people is, you know, with. global money movement, you have these super highways, right? And you know, you have this super highway that connects the U.S. and Europe and Japan and, you know, other major economies. And, you know, again, like I said, right, you know, if I need to send money from the U.S. to Europe, I'm not taking my money from my bank, you know, going and buying stable coins, sending the stable coins to Europe, liquidating the stable coins for euro to put in my bank. That's not,

it's significantly more efficient to just use the incumbent system for now. Look, obviously, the incumbent system will be completely replaced by stable coins, right? I mean, you've already, obviously, you know this with J.P. Morgan and, you know, Bank of America and all the other serve and everything else, visa, et cetera. So you will replace that system eventually with stable coins. But the reality is that the system as it is, you know, works today, right? These roads are very well paved. They're well connected.

The interstates are well kept up. The state is well funded to take care of it. when you start talking about connecting to emerging markets on that global super highway, right, then you're talking about taking an exit that's just a dirt road with potholes all over, right? You get to go through the Grand Canyon, your car's on E and you have three tires. And, you know, that's essentially how money moves between, you know, the U.S. and then, you know, more, you know, developing markets and emerging markets, right? That's how it moves between, you know, Europe and these emerging markets. And so, you know, what stable,

coins are doing, it's, you know, it's the first technology that comes in and actually builds an overpass, right? It builds brand new infrastructure that actually works to connect to these countries to that super highway of money movement. So, you know, the way that I see it, it's, you know, it's less about, and, and, you know, look, you know, again, I know, I, you know, hear everybody in the space that wants, you know, banks replace tomorrow and all of that. I think it's a lot less about that. It's a lot more about, you know, the practical, immediate implementation of this technology is countries where the banking system does not connect well to the global economy, including those people, including those businesses in, you know, global commerce, right?

Whether it's, you know, jobs, whether it's imports, you know, exports, whatever it is, right? How do you include those countries into the global economy in a much more seamless and connected way? and you really allow these countries to, you know, develop their economy the fullest of its potential. So we did another study this year. I think it came out in May. I think you guys graciously contributed data to that one as well. It was a study of actually bottom-up estimate of payments volumes using stable coins. And what was interesting was we found the B-to-B sector was actually the fastest growing and the biggest. of everything because people think about stable coins as remittance flows p-to-p it looks like now there's this emerging cohort of b-to-be which is very interesting the other thing we found was tether's dominance

is penetration for stable coin payments was extremely high is this what you're seeing as well i mean you know tether's sort of 75% of the market maybe 70-70% on a supply basis but in terms of payments share it's 90, at least in our sample. Are you seeing Tether Tron is basically still the number one mechanism here? Yeah, look, Tron is losing market share, but Tether is gaining market share. Right. And I think we've not seen, we've not seen sort of real competition to Tether yet on the payment side for stable coins.

And, you know, the reason why, I think, largely is, you know, USDC and the other major stable coins out there, whether it's USD, PYUSD, any of them, they are U.S. focused stable coins, right? I think, you know, as much as they want to focus on the whole world, and they should focus on the whole world, right? But right now, they're largely U.S. focused, right? And they're seen by people, regardless of focus, right? They're seen by people as a U.S. token, essentially, right? Tether from the beginning has been international, right? And has made a point of getting integrated into, I mean, basically every exchange on Earth. Right. And so, you know, it doesn't matter if I'm in, you know, Kazakhstan or wherever I am,

there is an exchange where I can swap local currency to tether, right? that has, you know, proliferated everywhere. And, you know, they did a lot of work to make sure that that was happening. I think that with, you know, USDC, you just, you haven't seen it, you know, in local exchanges as much. And I think that that's starting to change, right? You know, we're starting to see a lot more local exchanges and, you know, things like that pick up USC. I think obviously the IPO helps a lot, right? with all of their efforts because they are,

I mean, they're certainly trying, right? This is not a knock on the circle team at all. They're trying to get it out there. But yeah, I mean, I think until it's really ingrained in those exchanges and in like sort of the local, you know, digital asset economy, it's hard to facilitate payments on it because there's just not as much liquidity. The reality is there's just not as much liquidity for USC in emerging markets as there is for USD.

and that's why USDT is, you know, able to do that. And so I think, you know, I think the solution there is, you know, I mean, frankly, if I'm USDT, I would, you know, try to focus on reducing dependence on Tron, right? Tron has had a lot of issues with fees and things like that, that, that we're seeing, I mean, a lot of people switch for that reason. And some of them switch to USDC, right? because Tron is still dominant for for USDT. So I think that's the,

that's the big thing that, you know, I would focus on from their perspective. I think from, you know, USDAC's perspective, you know, these guys have,

I mean, done a great job getting the name out there. And obviously now with the IPO, I think everybody knows what USC is. I think now it's really a matter of how do you make sure that it is ingrained into every exchange around the world, right? And I think that, you know, that's a big piece of it is just, you know,

investing in, you know, working with exchanges everywhere from, you know, Argentina to Brazil, all to, you know, Nigeria to, you know, Kazakhstan and anywhere else, right? And just making sure that that gets listed, that gets used, that gets available for people locally. And I mean, look, that's where Tether's Head Start has really helped it, right? Because, obviously USDC is number one in America. I imagine I don't actually have the stats, but I imagine it's probably more popular in Europe or getting there. But for the rest of the world, Tether had a big head start sort of proliferating to the people. And yeah, you've seen that play out. And so, yeah, I mean, look, we continue to see that, but the demand for payments is largely on

USDT because the payment rails liquidity exist for USDT. And so it's just, it's really a matter of, you know, anybody that wants to compete with that has to invest in those rails, has to invest in payments. When you look at the infrastructure that has allowed stable coins to become more mature, I think we've made a ton of progress in the last couple of years with wallets that don't require you to write down a seed phrase. I mean, you look at startups like Privy or pushing the envelope there. I think at the same time, the liquidity picture has been improving. I mean, thanks to companies like Yellow Card, of course, like linking the last mile, you know, going from that dollar stablecoin to local FX. That's, I think, the most challenging part of the

stablecoin sandwich. What is it that you, what's on your wish list in terms of improving stable coin infrastructure? I think, I mean, frankly, one of the things right now, in terms of like our infrastructure is probably the most expensive piece is just, you know, it's, I mean, essentially just having to swap between chains and tokens and, you know, things like that, right? I think that, I mean, especially now as you're seeing, you know, now USDG and, you know, FIUSD and, you know, if, you know, Visa or Bank of America or any of these other major corporations decide to put out a stable coin. You know, in, look, in a few years, we're going to be in a world where there are, you know, 30 major stable coins. Now, you know, I mean, look, how big are the market cap on all of

these going to be? You know, we'll see, right? But, you know, I mean, you're going to end up at a world where there are, you know, 30 plus stable coins that people are using, at least in some way, shape, or form. And those are spread across, you know, another dirty chains each, right? And you just, you need more interoperability, right? You know, it doesn't make sense to pay, you know, five bips every time you need to switch between USDT and USC because they're both a dollar in theory, right? And so, you know, I mean, if every time, you know, I sent you money to your Bank of America account from my, you know, Chase or JPMorgan account, I'd be pissed if, you know, I was getting

charged bips, right, for a dollar to dollar. transaction. And so, yeah, I mean, I think that, you know, eventually what you'll see, and you'll look, maybe this will be J.P. Morgan. Maybe this will be a major bank that, you know, takes up this opportunity. But eventually you will see, you know, one of these players with massive amounts of liquidity because that's what it will take is massive amounts of liquidity to, you know, essentially facilitate those, that clearing, right?

where, you know, if, you know, Nick uses USDT on Tron and I use, you know, USDG on Solana, I can send you money. You know, I don't have to do any extra work, right? I can send it to you. You'll receive it in the currency that you want. And, you know, you have, I mean, you know, again, maybe it's JP Morgan. Maybe it's somebody else, right? But you have, you know, some major liquidity source that essentially clears all of that in the

middle and, you know, charges some flat fee to do so, right? I think that that is, I mean, that's one thing that's missing today that I think there is a huge opportunity for, right? There's not, I mean, you know, is there a ton of revenue in it? Yes, at scale, because you'll have, you know, millions of transactions and you can charge some sort of flat fee, but, you know, this whole thing right now where, you know, I mean, you have to pay, you know, bips to exchange between stable coins that's not sustainable, right? Because it's dollars.

So I think that that's certainly one of the. big ones. In terms of yellow cards future, what do you want the company to look like two, three years from now? Man, you look out two, three years. I mean, look, certainly you look out five years. Every bank in emerging markets is going to be utilizing our technology, right? Every single one of them. And you're already starting to see this, right? There are a number of banks that we work with across, you know, various parts of the world that need, help, number one, spinning up and managing this infrastructure, right? They understand that this technology is coming, right? Everybody has learned that lesson at this point. Right. And so they

understand that it's coming. They understand the tech is coming. They need to spin up infrastructure quickly. And they need, you know, the rails to be able to facilitate these payments outside of Swift, outside of the correspondent system. And that's already what we're seeing, right? We're seeing this in practice with banks. And I think that that is the, you know, the big unlock for us is we're doing a lot of work with a lot of major names in banking on how do you facilitate payments outside of Swift and providing them that infrastructure, right? And so, you know, what excites me about, the future for us is, you know, working more with, you know, these large institutions, these large incumbents on improving their infrastructure and, you know, just, I mean, making

things better for those consumers, right? I mean, you made the point about like B2B being a lot more popular than B2C. And, you know, yeah, 100% it is, right? Because the thing is, like, the native use case on stablecoins and frankly all blockchain, like, still kind of sucks, right? Like if I send you, you know, if I'm sending money to your wallet and I type one letter wrong, then like my money's gone forever and I'm screwed and, you know, I mean, like that's still like the average person, like you, you and I can, you know, talk about how, you know, the other benefits of the tech. But for the average person, like, they don't want that, right? They want to be able to call their bank and complain if, you know, like their sandwich is undercooked and, you know,

they didn't get a refund, right? Like, they need, you know, that, you know, that consumer protection. They need that, you know, those other avenues for somebody else to deal with it, right? And that's why people like their banks is because the bank deals with all the crap. And so, you know, I think, you know, there's a, there's a huge opportunity for businesses, whether it's in banking, in remittance, in, you know, payments, wherever it is, to adopt this technology. And look, in a lot of cases, it will mean lower revenue, right? Because the reality is that, you know, a lot of the things that, you know, some of these businesses charge for do, I don't know, the, you know, the revenue and the ability to charge for and do go away with stable coins. But, you know, it's the difference between

sort of becoming obsolete and adapting to a new technology that's going to completely change the industry and, you know, being on the forefront of that. And I think banks are starting to understand that they need to adapt to this technology. They need to be on the forefront of this to stay relevant. and to continue to provide better service. And the reason that, you know, again, with businesses that you've seen more adoption is because businesses are the ones that really suffer from these problems. Right.

You know, individuals don't send money overseas that often, right? Even if you're sending remittance or something like that back home, you're usually doing that, you know, what, once twice a month, right? Businesses are making these payments every single day to the tunes of, you know, millions, billions of dollars a day. Right. So these guys are really struggling with the incumbent system, which is, why there's so much more willingness to adapt to the technology and utilize the technology

even as it exists today. And so, you know, I do firmly believe that, you know, over the next, you know, two, three years, we're going to be helping banks make their payments more effective, make international payments more seamless for the businesses, for the consumers. It'll all be run on stable coins and none of them will, you know, ever need to know what, you know, a private key is right none of all need to know what you know what a wallet address is right that's the same direction i see it going in developed markets too i think so i think the story is is connectivity to the banks and that final integration with the financial system chris this has been great as always thank you so much we'll have you on uh i guess our cadence is every three years every four years so we'll

we'll bring you back and we'll see how you did oh my brother i'll be back um And, you know, we will be, yeah, we'll be talking about, you know, stable coins for babies or something at that point, man. That's, I can't even imagine what's going to do in four years. Oh, thanks for coming on. Appreciate it. Always good to see you, brother. Appreciate it.