On The Brink with Castle Island - Matt Hougan on Bitwise's launch of Ethereum Futures ETFs (EP.457)

Episode Date: October 2, 2023

Matt Hougan, the Chief Investment Officer of Bitwise Asset Management joins the show. In this episode we discuss: The SEC's approval of Ethereum Futures ETFs Bitwise's launch of AETH, The Bitwise Ethereum Strategy ETF and BTOP, the Bitwise Bitcoin and Ether Equal Weight Strategy ETF. The current state of play as it relates to Bitcoin spot ETF filings. The SEC's approach and posture given the Grayscale court case. The current lay of the land in the institutional market as it relates to digital asset products. To learn more about Bitwise visit bitwiseinvestments.com  

Today on the podcast, I sat down with Matt Hogan, the chief investment officer of Bitwise asset management. This is a timely episode as Friday night, the SEC approved the listing of Ethereum futures ETFs. And this morning, BitWise is launching two new funds that incorporate Ethereum futures. Matt has been on the podcast several times. It's always great to get his pulse on the market and his views on the latest regulatory developments. So without further ado, here's my conversation with Matt Hogan from Bitwis. Matt Walsh and Nick Carter are partners at Castle Island. Island Ventures. All views expressed by them or the guests on this podcast are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Castle Island Ventures.

Guest and hosts may maintain positions in the assets discussed in this podcast. You should not treat any opinion expressed by anyone on this podcast as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of their personal opinion. This is for informational purposes only. Brought down by bad mortgage investments, Lehman, which has 25,000 employees, will be liquidated. The federal government loans, American International Group, AIG, $85 billion. This is a different market and the Fed is asleep. The federal government is stepping it to stabilize Fannie Mae and Freddie Mack, the two mortgage giants that have been threatened by the housing crisis. The bank of England has pumped 75 billion pounds more to Britain's ailing economy with a new round of concentrated easy. You print a couple trillion dollars and all of a sudden people start to worry. So out of this worry, we have something called a Bitcoin. Bitcoin. Matt, well, welcome back to the podcast. I think

this is like your third or fourth time coming on, but excited to have you back on. I feel honored. It's good to be back, Matt. Well, the big news is you guys are going live this morning. So we're recording this on a Saturday. It'll run on Monday, hopefully. And you guys are going live with two new ETF products. So why don't we just hop into what happened here on Friday? And what are you guys launching on Monday? This is a huge day for Bitwise. I think it's a huge day for crypto. So on Monday morning on the New York Stock Exchange, the first time ever investors would be able to buy exposure to Ethereum and ETF wrappers. We're launching two ETFs, AETH, AETH, which is 100% exposure to Ethereum futures, and BTOP, BTOP, which is a 50-50 blend of Bitcoin and Ethereum.

And when you add them to BITC, which is our Bitcoin-only futures ETF, investors can now build whatever portfolio they want with ETFs, wading between Bitcoin and ETH. I think it's a really big day. So we're excited on Friday. The SEC accelerated our application, give us the green light to go forward. The products are seated. The market makers are lined up.

And we'll begin trading on Monday morning the first time ever, multiple crypto assets available with ETF wrapper. It's pretty cool. It's really exciting. Yeah, it's been a long journey to get here. So I guess talk a little bit about just the process of the idea for the product and what it took to actually launch it. Yeah, I was seven years old when we started working on this.

No, this has been a long time coming. So I know a lot of people are familiar with the sort of saga of spot Bitcoin ETFs, which of course been going on for 10 years. But ever since Ethereum Futures launched a few years ago on the CME, people have been asking, how can we get this exposure into an ETF? We saw how successful the Bitcoin Futures ETFs were. It pulled in a billion dollars in the first three days, which was the fastest an ETF ever got to a billion dollars. It made the Bitcoin derivatives market much more robust. And so we think there will be significant demand for Ethereum. In fact, we find many investors are more attracted to Ethereum than they are to Bitcoin. But the SEC was a straight no on this for a long time. We would ask them if we could file. We even tried filing once before. And they called us up and asked us to withdraw, which of course we did.

They were not ready to approve this. But just like one day, the SEC was ready to approve Bitcoin futures ETFs, one day the SEC was ready to approve Ethereum futures ETFs. And now we're there. It's happening today. I will give the SEC credit here. We all criticize the SEC a great deal in crypto land. And there are plenty of reasons to do that. But they are making progress on the ETF front. It hasn't been a straight no. We've gotten Bitcoin futures. We have Ethereum futures. Now we have Betop, which is Bitcoin and Ethereum together. The next step is spot Bitcoin, but it's been a hard journey, and I'm excited that it gets to the finish line today. I mean, there's so many questions and so many conspiracies really in the market just around how the SEC has acted towards these.

But I guess just on the product itself, obviously you guys have long been a proponent of trying to get spot products out. You've also gone down this futures path, obviously. What is the primary criticism of the futures products? And why is it that the Holy Grail is the spot product? Over time, futures-based exposure tends to trail the spot market. That's just the fact because futures tend to trade in what's called contango, which means if you buy a futures contract, which gives you the right to buy Ethereum in November, it'll typically be higher price than Ethereum's spot is today.

So over time, you might lose 3, 5, 8% a year versus the spot return. That's why we're all pushing for spot. And you see this in traditional ETFs as well. Well, for a long time, there were gold futures ETFs and gold bullion ETFs. And guess what? The gold bullion ETFs have $100 billion of assets and the gold futures ETFs are closed. So that shows you what investors want. They want spot.

But if we can't have spot, futures are pretty good. The correlation historically between a rolling futures position and spot returns is 0.99. And while many individual investors can buy on an exchange, can buy through uni, various ways for financial professionals, like financial advisors, they need to use ETFs, many of them. And so this gives them exposure to it. It's not perfect, but it's good enough for now until we get a spot ETF eventually. And you guys have also innovated on having optimal role type of products as well. Do you think that could be extensible to Ethereum? I think eventually you'll see that. Right now, these are front month products. You're right, we did optimal role on Bitcoin,

where you're trying to pick the best contract to maximize your long-term returns. These are are simpler products. The reason for that is the Ethereum futures market is earlier than the Bitcoin market. You need to see that market expands. So there's some volume in those out-month contracts. This is an active strategy you can adapt over time. So I do think that's a natural maturation. We'll probably see those develop in a year or two. Bitcoin is there today. Ethereum will be there tomorrow. And in the meantime, this at least gives you that tool. You can buy it in your brokerage account with just those four letters. It's a good thing. It's pretty interesting. to have this product launch in a dynamic where Gary Gensler at the SEC has been asked point

blank in front of the House Financial Services Committee if Ethereum is a security, and he didn't answer the question. So I guess my question is, does this really make the SEC's posture clear that it's not a security? Or is there anything to read into the approval of these products in just the state of Ethereum as a security or not? The short-term answers to that is no, but I think there's a long-term implication that points towards yes. So from a short-term perspective, what the SEC is saying is that another agency has blessed these futures contracts, and there is no reason to deny the ability to package those in an ETF. It's like, not my job, not my problem. I'm just following the letter of the law. So I don't think they're making an endorsement of Ethereum's security

status. But I will say this, what I've seen with the launch of Bitcoin Futures ETF, is that that played a key role in sort of transforming traditional finances' view towards Bitcoin. I think once those futures launched and then the ETFs launched, you started to see more and more firms embracing Bitcoin as a legitimate asset. You saw BlackRock come out. You've seen JP Morgan change its tune. You've seen Citig changes tune. Deutsche Bank changes tune.

I think the more tradified products that embrace these assets, the more it moves into the mainstream. And I think that eventually pressures the SEC to find space. So I do think there's a long-term good here, but short-term, I wouldn't read too much into it. Got it. That makes sense. Well, let's open another kind of Pandora's box here. So Grayscale wins their case against the SEC on the Administrative Procedures Act.

And now we're sort of in this zone of what's going to happen to the spot Bitcoin ETF. It has been rumored that one path the SEC could have taken would be to just pull back the futures ETFs, pull back the Bitcoin futures ETFs, and to just say, well, you can't have these either. It would strike me that if they're approving an Ethereum futures based suite of ETFs here, then that is sort of off the table. Am I reading too much into that? That is definitely off the table. Yeah, a stake's been driven through that. Rumors hard. It's not going to happen. Okay. So as a follow up, you guys have a spot Bitcoin ETF application on file. you've amended your 19B4 with an awful lot of information, 40 plus pages of analysis, really great

analysis by you guys basically saying that the futures leads price discovery here versus the spot and that that should be a reason to approve. So I guess talk a little bit about the impetus for getting that 19B4 updated while you guys did that. Yeah, absolutely. Well, the gray scale ruling was a tremendous victory for crypto and I would say for common sense. And it should encourage the SEC to not be able to use this excuse around manipulation not to approve a spot Bitcoin ETF. But at this point, Matt, we don't know what the SEC is going to do. They could appeal it. They could tweak their argument and just push that down the road. And so our view was, what if that doesn't work, what can we do to make the case that a spot Bitcoin ETF should

just be approved on the merits, independent of the Grayscale case? And again, we're big supporters of what Grayscale did. We thought it was great. But if that, doesn't work. What else can we do to convince the SEC that the Bitcoin market is mature enough to support an ETF? And so what we did is we looked at the thousands, literally thousands of pages they've written in disapproval orders. We took out all of their arguments that they've made to us, to others, why they're not approving a spot Bitcoin ETF. And then one by one, we itemized them and responded to them in 40 pages of research. I'm glad you found it interesting. I think it's fairly convincing. If you think about the box that the SEC is in right now, they have the

gray scale lawsuit pressuring them in one way. They have BlackRock doing its surveillance agreement with Coinbase providing another reason to approve a spot Bitcoin ETF. And now they have Bitwise doing a point-by-point academic response to each of their arguments. I think the totality of circumstances makes me very optimistic for the outlook for Spot Bitcoin ETFs during this review. cycle. Of course, we don't know anything that happened, but I'm pretty optimistic. I'm very optimistic, too, just on the merits of it. Of course, I guess there could always be a curveball. I mean, is it within the realm of possibilities that they could find something that they've previously never talked about? Could they, for instance, delve into like qualified

custody as a reason to deny? That's absolutely right. This argument we've been having for the past 10 years around market manipulation is necessary, but not sufficient to allow a spot Bitcoin ETF to launch. And that's really important. As you you mentioned, there's this question around qualified custodian. There are also questions around authorized participants and how broker dealers can handle crypto. There are also questions around disclosures and things like that. So this was like the first hurdle, the biggest hurdle, but you would be wrong to assume we're at the finish line. There is still work to do. I feel confident that those other items can be overcome, but of course I could be wrong. But you're right,

this is not the only hurdle. There are other ones as well. I mean, I'm going to lose my mind if it's qualified custody, especially in a world where staff accounting bulletin 121 is just preventing the largest banks in the United States from competing against their international counterparties in the custody space. It's crazy, really. It is crazy. Yes. Well, hopefully you won't have to lose your mind. Well, and it was good. I don't know if you saw it, but there was a bill that was introduced on Thursday, a bipartisan bill to repeal Sab 121, which I think would be a great outcome. It seems like to have that bipartisan support is a really good first step. I'm an eternal optimist, as you know.

I think we're trending in the right direction. If you look at that kind of bill, if you look at the bipartisan letter to Gary Gensler, I think there's tea leaves that you can read that suggest we're eventually going to find our way to a positive space. That doesn't mean we can relax because there are a lot of threats out there, as you know. But I do see some positive progress. And that was one of them. What's the latest in terms of the dates for approving the Bitcoin ETF?

There are probably three out circle on my calendar, Matt. The first would be October. 13th through 16th that depends on how you count. That's the last day that the SEC can appeal or not appeal the gray scale lawsuit. Now, no one's quite sure what happens if there's a government shut down. No one's quite sure what happens if they don't take action, but they come up with another explanation. But that will be a news point that will give us a view on what's going to happen. The drop dead dates, there are two to consider. One is January 10th, which is the arc filing, ARC filed before BlackRock and everyone else filed.

They sort of filed out of the blue. But the SEC has to say yes or no by January 10th. And there's a feeling like they did with Ethereum futures. They won't want to be a ping maker and just reward one. So maybe they'll line everyone up then. If they don't, BlackRock, Bitwise, et cetera, are the middle of March. So middle of October, January 10th, middle of March. By then we should know.

And it's really exciting. Again, I think a spot Bitcoin ATF will be transformation. to the market. And I feel optimistic. And the window is like the next six months. So it's going to be an exciting time. Q1 into Q2 is setting up to be pretty exciting here if you put on a spot Bitcoin product plus the having. That's absolutely right. I think we're setting up for the largest bull market in crypto's history. You know, you and I have talked about it. Crypto moves in these four-year cycles. We just went through a classic year one. This was 2019 Redux. This was 2015 Redux. a quiet bull market where prices go up, but everyone is depressed.

That's what it feels like right now. And then year two, it gains momentum and year three has historically been ridiculous. Year two with Ethereum futures ETFs, blended Bitcoin, ETH futures ETFs, a spot Bitcoin ETF, maybe at the end of the year progress on an Ethereum spot ETF. That's a pretty good catalyst for pushing crypto mainstream and makes me really excited about this cycle. I do think we're in a bull cycle. I do think next year is going to be very exciting.

And maybe the year after that, even more exciting than that. The two things I would add to that is one is maybe the rates environment starts to shift a little bit next year. Maybe we're not in a hiking cycle. And the second thing would be in this part, I'd be curious to get your views on is just these two bills that were advanced out of the host financial services committee, one, the stable coin bill to the FIT Act, the market structure bill. It seems to me like that would open the door for a lot more broker dealer and business. bank participation in this market. Absolutely. And general institutional participation. And the other catalyst I would add, of course, is the election where you're likely to see a more crypto-friendly

political environment in Washington emerge and people start to price those things in. If we see progress on that legislation, I think any sign that sort of legislative wall is breaking and we're getting balanced legislative progress will be a key part of catalyzing this next bill run. Again, a big picture what this next bull run is about to me is the mainstream. of crypto. The last one was about defy, NFT, stable coins, early applications. The one before that was about Ethereum and ICOs. This one is about mainstream. So that means ETFs. It means legislation. It means big companies and brands building in the space. And I think we're lining in that direction. Again, there are a lot of tea leaves you can point to that show pushing down that path.

It's also clear that you're just seeing this explosion of real world assets coming to blockchain, starting with treasury bills and dollars being kind of the killer use case. But I'd be curious your view on this, but we're starting to see all sorts of startups that are taking other types of assets, trying to represent them on blockchains. It'll be really interesting to see how that moves forward, especially if you get regulatory clarity on how to actually bring one of these things onto a blockchain. That's right. If you get that regulatory clarity, it will be an explosive bull market.

What we're getting now is proof of concept, which is really exciting. Oh, Goldman settled a $100 million. dollar Ethereum bond, it took one hour instead of five days. That's really cool. People are tokenizing real world assets and doing proof of concept with little things. I think the thing people probably miss is that regulatory clarity will not just accelerate that. It will be a massive step function. As you mentioned, there are all these startups focused on it. Everyone wants to talk about this space. There's just a bridge we need to cross. But if we cross that bridge, I think it'll be pretty exciting. It goes without saying that the hard work is done during the bear markets.

you can go live with a product, but if there's no one there and you haven't onboarded onto these broker-dealer platforms and big RIAs, then there's really, it's not that exciting. So maybe talk a little bit about what's been going on at BitWise in terms of getting the products onboarded. The amazing thing about that is that there's been almost a steady bull market in that, despite everything that happened in 2022 and 2023. There was maybe a little slowdown around FTX, but our client count, we serve professional investors has doubled in the last 18 months.

It's pretty phenomenal. I think a year ago, we were on three or four national platforms. Now it's well north of a dozen trending towards 20. We've been approved on two national platforms in the last month. Everyone that I talk to in traditional finance realizes that this next bull market is coming. And they've seen it happen before, that they aren't getting questions from their clients, and then they're overwhelmed with questions from their clients. And so they're taking actions now to be ready for that.

It's really exciting. Yeah, I mean, we're just one company. So I assume others are seeing a similar thing. But to see our client count double from the start of 2022 until today, despite everything that happened in 2022, is pretty exciting. I think once we turn and people get excited about where we're going, it's going to be faster than many people expect. It is it still the same sort of narratives that are driving these RIAs

and independent broker dealers to get the scaffolding. unfolding in place? Is it digital gold? What is actually the driving narrative right now? Client demand is the driving narrative. Coinbase has what, 56 million US accounts or something, more accounts than Charles Schwab. These advisors have clients who are investing in crypto on their own, and they want to bring that inside of their platform so that they can charge a fee on it, so they can make sure they don't make behavioral mistakes. So that's the number one reason. The second reason, people have accepted that Bitcoin will be around forever. which is a change from past cycles.

And so they're embracing it as this alternative asset that has low correlation to traditional assets, and that's a phenomenal thing. But there's real excitement around Ethereum. That's one of the reasons we're so excited about Aeth and B-TOP. This idea of real-world use cases, and the fact that you can model Ethereum based on revenues and cash flow,

really appeals to this traditional audience. If you can show them that Nike did $200 million in digital goods revenue, or that Starbucks is launching a rewards platform or JPMorgan is doing bond trading that settles on Ethereum, that gets them fired up in a way that ephemeral digital gold almost doesn't. So I think this Ethereum piece may be a big unlock for these broker doers is part of why they're getting so engaged right now. That's a great point on being able to model it. I think about that a lot in the context of these ethel-2s, even Coinbase's base. I mean, I think on an annualized basis, that's on something like a $70 million run rate right now.

So that's real dollars and that's just getting going. It is incredible. I'll say two things about it. Sorry, I get so excited. One, it's incredibly able to talk to advisors about cash flow. When you say crypto, the first thing they say is it has no cash flow. And you can say, well, actually no, Ethereum is doing a billion dollars in annualized revenue. And Base is doing, as you mentioned, significant revenue.

That's a game changer. The other thing I would say, Coinbase is executing at an extremely high quality right now. people were so worried about their business and worried about their commission-driven business. And the way they diversify their revenue stream is just incredible. And as you said, it is just getting started. That's going to 10x in the next bull cycle or more. I think that's right. It feels like every week when we do the podcast, we're talking about somewhere new that

Coinbase has launched operations. I think last week they got an approval by the Central Bank of Spain. And then they got approved for perpetual futures out of Bermuda. It makes me think that there's actually going to be a lot more hedge fund. activity in the space just due to some of these platforms popping up internationally and new types of products. Are you guys seeing any action on that side of the house? I know you're active on the hedge fund solution side as well. Yeah, we're really excited about the active side of the house right now. We do have a multi-stratity team here at bitwise. And yeah, the alpha opportunities that emerge

when you get these new and different platforms is really exciting. They used to exist. If you go back a year, these opportunities existed as well in the heyday of FTX and finance, etc. But you had to sweat the counterparty risk so much that you actually couldn't stress the profit opportunity to its fullest. You had to be cautious unless you were crazy and we're not crazy here at Bitwise. The beauty of these more established regulated platforms is you can actually push further into them. So we're going to see more and more of that happening. Even the EFutures launch, you'll see options on Ethereum ETFs. You'll see options on Bitcoin ETFs. That landscape is getting more complex. That creates unique alpha opportunities that are often low beta and not correlated,

and that really appeals to institutional audiences. You're seeing that on the back of things like tri-party custody and prime brokerage getting better. So it's really the scaffolding that's probably opening up some of these investment opportunities. That's exactly right. But it's not as mature as it is in traditional capital markets. This was also a great place to play maybe 20 years ago in traditional capital markets. And we're in the establishment space in crypto. And that creates some unique alpha opportunities if you're smart about it. The big news probably since you last came on this podcast, which is that BlackRock came into the fold.

And so what did you make of that? I mean, what type of a statement is that? We did cartwheels. It's such a huge endorsement for the space. This is the world's largest asset manager, which seven years ago, or four years ago, was it 2019 called Bitcoin an index of money laundering? And now they're launching a spot Bitcoin ETF. It's been a huge endorsement.

It was a game changer for us in 20. terms of what clients were saying to us. We were still experiencing some FTX overhang until the day that they launched a spot Bitcoin ETF and Larry Fink went on Fox to say that Bitcoin could transcend any other currency. I mean, it's absolutely an incredible endorsement. You've also seen after that other major institutions follow suit. There's almost a pre-blackrock, post-blackrock period, but more importantly, it put FTX behind us. It was the nail in the last fair market. And I'd mark that day as the day we certainly entered the new bull market cycle. So it's been great.

People wonder if we worry about competition. We welcome it. Right now it's all about growing the space. It's not about carving up the pie. He certainly must have a great team over there because to be able to change your mind like that. And to actually, if you listen to that Fox interview, it's very clear that he has a very firm handle on what Bitcoin is and why it's important as an asset. So you have to hand it to people that are able to change their minds.

Yeah. Well, he's been right a lot. historically in building his business. So I think he sees something. And you do have to hand it to him. Remarkable firm, great endorsement. And now everyone's in. We are at the everyone is coming in space. Is there anything to read into the fact that BlackRock has only been denied once for an ETF application? There are two things to read into that. One is that they're very good and that they'll likely get approval. Of course, the SEC has been perfect in denying spot Bitcoin ETFs. So it's a heavyweight battle. The thing people miss in there,

really interesting thing to me is the one thing BlackRock has that a company like Bitwise doesn't is the ability to push its counterparties to do unusual things. So if a small startup calls up NASDAQ and says you should do a surveillance agreement with Coinbase, NASDAQ may say, I have better things to do. But if BlackRock calls you up and says, you should do this, you may take that call very seriously. And so the unlock that we've seen in terms of surveillance sharing agreements, some of the unlocks behind the scenes in terms of authorized participant activity and prime broker activity is directly attributable to the fact that BlackRock is this big dog that shakes a big stick and other friends of theirs have to listen. And I think people

miss that fact. They assume that anyone could have done this, but that's not true. You had to have that sort of force in order to do it. And that's really the behind the scenes value of BlackRock coming into the space. It's a big deal. That's a real. really good point. And I guess the rest of the industry gets to ride on some of those surveillance sharing agreements, I guess to the extent that that's even the real barrier. But honestly, in a lot of ways that the rest of the industry is going to be riding on Bitwise's research with this 19B4 filing, I think you kind of roll this out and everyone will benefit from the analysis, really. We are hopeful that that would be the case. Again, this is really about growing the pie.

Bitwise is competent. We're the largest crypto index fund manager in America. I think we serve the most financial advisors of any firm in crypto. We're confident if there's an ETF, we'll get our market share. We were hopeful with this research we could push the industry along. And we're proud that a few years ago, we published the original research on fake volume, which I think contributed to a remarkable cleanup in the reporting in the space. So everyone in crypto is doing their part to move this ball forward. You all certainly are with some incredible forces. And Bitwise is trying to do its part. So before I let you go, the logical next product here would be a spot-based product in Ethereum land. And obviously, there's a lot you could do with that. I'm sure you guys have had a lot

of brainstorming sessions on staking and how that could factor into a product. What happens next year? Is that a possible product here if you were to get a Bitcoin spot product? If you think about it holistically, yes, first Bitcoin futures, then Ethereum futures, then Bitcoin spot, then Ethereum spot, combinations of that. those two. That's the natural pathway. People often ask me, does that mean we'll get everything? I think eventually we'll get everything. But there is a big drop off after Ethereum because there are not regulated futures contracts. So I think we're on the pathway to have those two assets. That's 67% of the market. That's a great start. I think you'll see that assuming we are successful on the spot Bitcoin

ETF, which who knows, not guaranteed, but assuming that passes, I think it's pretty natural to think Ethereum will come down the road. Does the presence of DFI make that harder for Ethereum, the fact that you have decentralized exchanges that have meaningful volume? In terms of what? In terms of the regulatory overhang? Just the ability to understand the spot market for Ethereum versus Bitcoin. I think the question is, is the traditional spot market and the regulated futures market big enough to support an ETF? And there, I think the answer would be yes, even if you exclude the DFI sleeve. I think Defi add some complications on the regulatory front, and there's a lot of regulatory uncertainty around that.

But I suspect that there be unique challenges in getting Ethereum product to market. But you see Ethereum ETFs elsewhere. They're Ethereum ETFs in Canada. I think it would work in the U.S. We'll see if we file and see if we go down that pathway. But I suspect we're going to get there. Look, ETFs are a normal thing to have in the market, and people want them. They don't compete with the spot markets.

They're usually additive to it. I think we'll see a robust crypto ETF market in the next 24 months. And that's going to be a game changer for the industry. Certainly it would fit into the mandate of the SEC to protect investors and to promote capital formation. I think that's certainly something that these products do. I couldn't agree more. Well, Matt, this is awesome.

You guys are firing on all cylinders over at Bitwise. Pleasure to have you on the pod. And congratulations to you and the team on the launch of these two new products. Thanks for having me on. Appreciate it. And it was a fun conversation as all. Talk soon. Thanks for listening to another episode of On the Brink with Castle Island.

To find out more about Castle Island, visit castle island. To listen to all of our podcast episodes, please go to On the Brink dashpodcast.com or just click on the tab in our website. Thanks for listening.