On The Brink with Castle Island - Matthew Gould (Unstoppable Domains) on the blockchain domain name opportunity (EP.167)

Episode Date: January 11, 2021

Matthew Gould, co-founder and CEO of Unstoppable Domains joins the show. In this episode we discuss: Matthew's path into the cryptocurrency industry and the insight behind launching Unstoppable Domains. How Matthew sees the opportunity for blockchain-based domain systems. Tradeoffs between the various layer-one blockchains that are addressing this opportunity. Views on single sign-on and potential future adjacent use-cases. To learn more about Unstoppable Domains visit their website. Sponsor notes: Withum is a forward-thinking, technology-driven advisory and accounting firm committed to helping our clients be more profitable, efficient and productive in today's complex business environment. Our Digital Currency group is proud to partner with members of the cryptocurrency community. Get to know us at withum.com/crypto.

This episode is brought to you by Witham. Witham is a nationally ranked public accounting firm providing advisory tax and audit services to businesses on a local and global scale. More on Witham and their fast-growing crypto asset practice later in the episode. Today in the podcast I sat down with Matthew Gould, the founder and CEO of Unstoppable Domains. Unstoppable Domains is a company that allows its users to register domain names on public blockchains. I think this is definitely one of the most compelling non-financial use cases for blockchain

technology, and it's something I've been curious about for some time. So I was really excited to have Matthew on to talk about it. So I'm going to keep this short, and without further ado, here's my conversation with Matthew Gould. Brought down by bad mortgage investments, Lehman, which has 25,000 employees, will be liquidated. The federal government loans American International Group, AIG, $85 billion. This is a different kind of market, and the Fed is a sleek. The federal government is stepping it to stabilize Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the two mortgage giants that have been threatened by the housing crisis. The Bank of England has pumped 75 billion pounds more into Britain's ailing economy

with a new round of quantitative easing. You print a couple trillion dollars and all of a sudden people start to worry. So out of this worry, we have something called the Bitcoin. Bitcoin. Matt, thanks so much for joining the podcast today. Excited to chat a little bit about unstoppable domains. Happy to be here. Matt, so why don't we just get started with kind of your background,

what led you to the crypto industry in general? And what was the genesis of the idea behind unsopably? stopable demands. So I actually have a technology and economics background, and I ended up in SF about a decade ago when a friend of mine had a startup, and he wanted me to come and do data analytics for his company. So I moved out to San Francisco, and during this time, 2012, 2013, 2014, there was a lot of new and exciting things happening with regards to Bitcoin and cryptocurrency generally. So I actually came to Bitcoin from the tech side. And I fell in love pretty quickly with the ability to send money to anyone on the planet very quickly.

And that was actually one of the first things I did was I got a hold of some Bitcoin, and then I actually sent some to a friend of mine who was living in Prague at the time. And that was kind of my introduction to Bitcoin and cryptocurrency. That's awesome. Yeah, so many people have that first experience just kind of moving money around and solving an acute pain point. Yeah, I guess a lot of people also in this industry had acute pain points around anonymous transactions and things like that. So it's always interesting to see how people get into it. What was the path that led you to seeing domain registration as a use case? When Bitcoin was young, I guess 10 years ago during that time period, when I was taking a look at the tech, I realized there's a lot of issues with

making this like global scale. And there's also a lot of issues with how you can make more complex interactions happen. But I still, the core part of Bitcoin was there. And it was like a huge tech breakthrough to be able to represent digital scarcity on a public ledger so anyone can verify that. So I just kind of stayed in tune with the space, 2013, 14, 15, and was playing around with a lot of different apps. And this is what I spent my weekends on going to Bitcoin meetups, was an attendance at blockchain university, and just worked on side projects, which is what I suggest, anyone who's interested in eventually kind of going on their own path, your side projects actually end up

turning into in a lot of cases that future business. And that's what happened with me. So I was working on Bitcoin and then Ethereum came out. And I was actually playing around with Ethereum when it was on TestNet. And this was when smart contracts got introduced to blockchains essentially. That's what Ethereum did was allow you to do more complex things. And that was really the light bulb moment for me. And when I realized that I now have a very expressive programming language and I can use that to create much more complex products, that's when I kind of said, okay, this is time me to dig in and go full time in crypto. So I got really excited, spent even more time working on cryptocurrency during this period of time. And I approached the market with what's going to be

first. Because if you're at a new market that's just emerging, you don't want to pick something that becomes awesome 20 years later. And I think the best example of this most recently is everyone seeing the success of these grocery delivery companies like Instacart. And if you remember back in 1999, there was Webvan. And the problem was the tech just wasn't ready for Webvan to be successful in the late 90s, whereas today the tech is more than ready for successful delivery companies like Instacart. And so when I looked at the market, blockchain domains just hit me as something that should already be digital.

And if you just take a look at asset value inside the space, domains are a pretty large asset class. It's like 50 billion-ish, and they are purely digital product. That meant that we didn't have to solve the technical challenges of connecting offline to blockchain data, like real world to blockchain. And the design of blockchain registries is actually quite elegant because you can remove a lot of dependencies that you have in the traditional domain system, DNS 1.0, where you don't have to rely on a centralized server. And a lot of people don't realize this, but when you're traveling around the internet, when you go to a visit a dot-com, website or dot org or something like that, that's actually a company in an organization that maintains that. Their sign is one of the largest ones and they actually own.com and they're the ones who maintain

that. And that's because there's a central server and there's a whole lot of things behind there that they have to do in order to make sure that it works properly. With blockchain domain names, you can get rid of that central entity and really allow people to own and control their digital presence, their domain name from their wallet. So that was kind of the insight is that there's this new technology emerging. that will allow you to get rid of having to have these central servers for any type of asset registry and that the asset registries that make the most sense to work on first are digital

asset registries. And so I think that most people in the crypto space have come around to that. You'll see a lot of applications are finance focused. And that's because those assets are 100% digital. Domain names happen to fall into that same type. Yeah, it's fascinating because I think it's obviously a super tribal industry to be in. You have people that are very almost religiously attached to certain projects. But domain registrations and domain names are something that I think has universally spanned all tribes.

I remember in the early days, there were projects like Namecoin and eventually one name, which became Blockstack. And then, of course, things started to get built on Ethereum as well as other networks. What is it about domain names, I guess, that is just so appealing no matter what tribe you're in? I think if you're coming from a technical perspective, and Nanecoin is a great example. there. I think it was like maybe the second or third use case for a blockchain outside of Bitcoin. And it's just very obvious from people coming from a tech background that walkchains are really good as digital asset registries. And that's why Bitcoin is so fantastic at being a representative store of value. And if you're looking around on other types of things that you interact with on a daily

basis that are digital and our registries domain names are just the very top of that list. And so that's why I think you see this continue to come up. And I'll point out a few key things that have happened. And so they were actually, believe it or not, if we roll back time even further, people tried to build alternative naming systems in the early aughts, like 2001 and 2002, or the end of 99 or whatever. And then they tried again with name coin after Bitcoin came out. And I think that that was a big technology leap because you now have the ability

to trustlessly track domain names. And then you see another birth of registries like unsoppled domains. after the advent of smart contract blockchains. And the question is, is this the turning point in time where we have all the tech pieces together to really go to market? And I would argue yes, because we can make these systems extensible now, and we can actually turn these from just a name registry for businesses

to really more like IDs or endpoints for end users for their digital presence. I think we have kind of hit a point where the tech can finally go to market in a way that maybe wasn't possible, even just two or three years ago. That makes a ton of sense. How do you describe what these things are to people that are maybe not in the crypto space? I mean, how do you compare this to traditional domain names when you explain the kind of broad surface area of what is also possible with a crypto-native domain?

Well, we definitely try to keep it simple for people due to crypto. And that's actually part of the reason why we chose calling them blockchain domains. And the things that we harp on is you can use this for your website and people understand that. And then we also say that you can use it for your cryptocurrency addresses, which is really the unique use case that works for blockchain domains that you just can't do with traditional domains. Now, if I'm going to talk to that person a little bit longer, I like to explain to them that naming registries, like just list of names with attached information to them are actually a whole class of products. and domains that they currently use for accessing the internet like your dot-com domain is just a small set of what a naming registry can do. The big difference between blockchain domains and regular domains is that blockchain domains you own and you can store them in your own wallet, whereas traditional domain names are leased from this company and they're stored on that centralized server. And from that one difference in architecture, you get a lot more usable functionality.

And a straightforward way to understand that is if you want to make improvements to dot com domain names, you would need to work through Veracine in order to have those approved, essentially. Whereas for blockchain domain names, because it's a user-owned asset, make you have it in your own wallet, if you want to build on top of it, make other applications that can interact with it. If you even want to put it into a programmable smart contract to take extra actions on some future event or something like this, you can do that. So blockchain domains, given their open nature, are much more of a platform than traditional domain names.

And that's why I think you're going to see more and more data added into blockchain domain registry systems that will help them to become identifiers online. And it's also why they are a super set of traditional domain names. Because you can always take a blockchain domain name. And as the technology evolves, you can use it to do all the things you can do with the traditional domain name. but you won't be able to take a traditional domain name and do all the things that you can do with a blockchain domain name as the technology gets better.

That makes sense. I mean, one of the most appealing things here as a user is that, as you say, you own this forever. So there's no idea of kind of squatting on a domain or having to worry about it expiring and you have the wrong credit card renewal information or something like that. You truly own these things for as long as you control the keys. And I think that's a huge value prop. And people don't really think about it. It's amazing how many things you take for granted.

But there's really no reason for a. you to have to pay an annual fee every year for the registration of your domain name on Veracine for your dot com or any of the other ones really. And if you think about it, that cost that you're bearing is for the running of those centralized servers. If you just instead replace this with a blockchain-based system, we also think that the costs go down dramatically. So there's also just like new technology is going to come in here and it's going to enhance the things that you can do with your domain name, one of the ones we did recently, which I think is cool. is you're able to connect your Twitter account to your domain.

So you could, when you're sending money to someone, you can actually see their social profile. So you know you're sending it to the right person. So you'll have more functionality and it's going to keep growing. And then you don't have to worry about the centralized entity keeping its servers up and running because you're depending on this being on the blockchain. And that just brings the cost down. So I think it's going to end up being cheaper for people with more functionality in the long run. And we try to push on both points. When we're talking more traditional people, we're just saying, hey, it's a next evolution in technology.

And of course you're going to want to use this in the future because it's going to do everything that technology normally does. It opens up new doors and then brings down the cost. Absolutely. How do you think about this in the context of universal logins? Do you think that these domains become the basis for users logging into any service on the internet eventually? I think it is very likely that domains or blockchain domains in particular could fill that niche. And I think that blockchain IDs generally are a better class for solving this universal login problem. And if you actually look across the space, you'll see there are a lot of companies who have

universal login offerings that are very successful when they offer them B2B. They're offering them to business. And the reason why they're successful is they're relying on a different tech stack, which requires you to have basically a sysadmin. There's some good examples out there. I think Octa has an ID solution. You've seen Google Off. That's maybe more consumer.

Microsoft has one for business. Oracle has one. So these guys have all these SSO solutions. And the reason why consumers don't use them is my family doesn't have its own sysadmin to administer all the keys to all these people. And that's where blockchains really shine is they give the ability for end users to have their own key. And you no longer have to run the infrastructure. because it's publicly run by the blockchain network.

Yes, I think domain names are actually a really good candidate for SSO, universal login, and identification tied back to a real user on the internet as part of the Web 3 suite. And if it's not domain names, which I think they have a pretty good chance of being that, I am almost certain it's going to be some sort of blockchain identifier for consumers. How do you deal with customers losing their keys, losing their passphrases to access these domains? What's kind of the best in-class way to make sure that doesn't happen? So security right now is a problem that every single application in Ethereum and Bitcoin and the crypto space is dealing with. I think ultimately the best solutions for users are going to be some form of custody product,

where the user has full control and access to all the interact. actions while they still have a backup in case something goes wrong. We actually recently announced a custody product with Gemini, and they're acting as the custodian. So if people want to store their blockchain domains, they can store them under Gemini custody. And they're an insured company out of New York. They're also a pretty big exchange. And you can feel pretty secure about storing your domain name there for the long term. We're also looking at other ways to make it easier for users to back up their keys. So it's something as simple as being able to print out a paper printout. we have the things coming out very soon that will help you download and back up your keys to your domain name.

But if we're looking longer term, I'll just say that 90% plus of people I think are going to end up on some sort of custody solution for their crypto assets broadly. And then specifically for blockchain domain names. And the way that would work is you could have the domain name in your wallet and you have the key that can control that domain name and set up and configure it however you would like. And then if for a reason you lost that key, you'd have the traditional restoration process by contacting directly Gemini custody, for instance. I guess at the end of the day is just an asset. So you would think that some subset of people would want to see this within the brokerage account where they hold their other types of assets.

So see your crypto assets. You see your maybe traditional assets. You see your domain names. Maybe see some NFTs as well. These are just digital bearer instruments. I think that's right. And our hunch is that it's going to be the vast majority of people. Like it's not going to be close.

Now, it's important that the minority of people, that hardcore 10% can take possession of the keys they want and have it completely offline and ensure their security for whatever reasons. It may also just be cheaper to manage it on your own if you have a large enough operation to custody assets anyway. Or maybe you have a vendor that you already work with. But that's kind of the beauty of having the system where by default, you can own it and have in your wallet. because then if you want, you can choose to put it to a custody provider or you can choose to put it to your own self-hosted solution. So you're much more portable. Right now, if you try to transfer a domain name, if you try to transfer it twice, I think it could take 60 days because you have to transfer it to the first person. And then there's like a aging period for this domain name before you can

then transfer it again with a blockchain domain name, you know, I can transfer you a name right now and you can transfer it right back on the next block. And so this type of thing, it's just kind of interesting because just like banks, if you do a wire transfer, there can be a delay of 24 hours or maybe the money can be held up in ACH or something for a couple of days. This exact same thing happens with all assets, including domain names themselves. And so this process is going to be a lot faster than that. And that's going to be another one of the advantages. If you're a regular listener of this show, you know that we take accounting and auditing pretty seriously. And that might seem a little bit strange in an industry that prides itself on the removal of intermediaries.

But we think when it comes to digital assets, trust relationships with counterparties, parties like custodians and brokerages is critically important. Witham is a top 25 ranked accounting, tax, and advisory firm. They have a digital currency and blockchain group that's working with some of the highest profile companies in the industry on things like tax advisory, financial statements, token sales, stablecoin audits, and much, much more. To contact their team, go over to witham.com slash crypto. That's W-I-T-H-U-M dot com slash crypto and get in touch with someone on their team. Could you see this being a world where these domains get financialized in ways that you could take out a loan against a domain name as collateral and things like that? Yeah. So someone has already

done that. Believe it or not, there's actually already a couple of like hardcore blockchain crypto people who have already taken out loans against blockchain domain names in the space. And I do think that's possible that could happen. There's a lot of interesting things here with having essentially a bearer asset that can also have a working business. So you can imagine, for instance, you have a website like t-shirts.crypto, and you actually sell t-shirts on it, and everyone has to pay on that website and cryptocurrency. The owner of that domain name could actually transfer you that whole business with a transaction on the blockchain.

So there's all sorts of like looking out in the future, it's kind of hard to predict all the different ways that people could do lending against these assets. But I think that there's actually quite a bit there. Rentals is another one that's commonly. there's a couple people I know that are working on. They have a large portfolio of domains that they have already collected and they're looking to rent them out. So yeah, I think for sure there's going to be financial products for blockchain domains.

You would think that just the price discovery and the ability to have transparency into a system like this, since it is digitally native would just be a lot better than a traditional domain registration process where you have these agents getting involved and things like that. You could almost have an order book for domains at the end of the day. And there are a couple of applications already. OpenC, because these domain names are on the back end, Ethereum NFT at this point, where people are already buying and selling these. And I think recently, maybe it was in September, we had the largest single secondary sale of a dock crypto domain. And I believe it sold for $90,000,

right around $90,000. It was in Ethereum. But it was right around $90,000 at the time. And I think that was sex stock crypto, of course, was the domain name. But to see that secondary market happening, that was really good market validation for us as a company because there are people who are interested in these for places to build long-term value. And what's your take on just the other platforms besides Ethereum that are emerging and offering similar types of services in the domain space? What's taking off at this point? We've actually built on multiple blockchain. So we actually built dot zil, which was on Zilica, and that was our first registry. Then we put together dot crypto on the Ethereum block.

So we've actually built on two different ones already. I can say that the smart contract blockchains are where the innovation is happening in the space. And I can say with confidence that Ethereum is definitely the leader in terms of development-friendly blockchains. Because they have all the tools available and they also have a lot of momentum behind them on figuring out the next step for improving blockchain scalability, for instance. So I would say broadly that most people, when they look at this market, they would say that Bitcoin is the leader for the space. And then if you're looking to build applications, then Ethereum is the market leader. And I agree with that.

What is kind of clicking into that criteria? What is it that makes a public blockchain more or less suitable for this type of use case? Is it the density of developers? Is it the development roadmap that you have some visibility into things aren't changing? Is it immutability? What makes it a good platform? Well, it's very nice if there's at least some sort of roadmap where you can see where the core team is looking to take the product. For us, obviously, we want to do more complex type systems.

So we can't use a simple UGXO blockchain like Bitcoin. We're looking for something like Ethereum. And then it's also very nice if there's a reasonable block size so that you can fit in some of the more complex transactions that you might want to put through. And in this case, I would say Ethereum passes. And all of these are pass-fail. And because right now it's really hard to grade blockchains on like a one to ten. It's like, do they have it or do they not? And I think that so those are the things that we're keying in on is like, is there

enough block space for the project that we want to build? Is the language that it's in does it have enough expressiveness so that we can actually build a more complex system? Just to give you some ideas. Like we're building naming systems that have different types of upgrade paths or maybe different types of restrictions or additional features on top of them. And that's a lot of things that are going to get added over time. And that's something that we'd like to build on a system like Ethereum that has a fully expressive language. And then getting to the network effects part,

of course, that's a consideration as well. If you work on something like Ethereum, you know it's already going to be integrated into most of the applications and wallets that you're interested in potentially working with. And I think that there's also a little bit easier user onboarding because at least there has already been some education, at least for crypto users, about what Ethereum is. Yeah, that makes sense. So maybe talk a little bit about the product itself and how an everyday person would engage with unstoppable domains. We sell blockchain domain names. The primary use case for them is to replace your hexadecimal cryptocurrency addresses. So if you're out there and you've ever sent Bitcoin before or Ethereum and you've had to copy and paste one of those 30 to 40 character hex addresses, then you've experienced the pain. And when we decided on this product, I actually remember back in early days sending cryptocurrency

each other. And every time I would copy and paste a hex address, I would look at it like five times to make sure that I got the right address because I wanted to make sure that I wasn't sending money. It's the wrong place. Or oops, there's a typo and there goes a few thousand dollars. So for cryptocurrency users, I think that blockchain domains just make immediate sense to simplify the UX for someone to see you a payment.

So if you go and you pick up Matt Walsh, if someone wants to send you some crypto, you can just tell them, just send me money to Matt Walsh.com. And if they use Coinbase wallet app or any of the other 30 applications that support our naming system, they don't need to know your BTC address. So I would say that's like the first most pressing use case for cryptocurrency users. The next use case is websites. And so if you want to publish your own blog or your own website where you have original content and you really want to own everything and you want to experience the decentralized web You want to be one of the early pioneers, like the people who were making websites back at 1994, then you can also use your blockchain domain name to publish those. And we've had a few

crypto projects who have published websites recently. Mysterium just did one recently. And Walt 74 is another one I can come up off of the top of my head. And so these projects are interested in really exploring the limits of what you can do with this new emerging technology. So this is the two primary use cases right now, cryptocurrency addresses, and then these decentralized websites. As we roll, forward into the future. I also think it's a good idea to pick up your name, for instance, because if these blockchain domain names become the de facto digital ID that we think they could be, then you're going to want to have Matt Walsh.compto and then have that associated with your Twitter profile or your Reddit or even your podcast. It's kind of like your Twitter handle

in the early days. It would have been a good idea to pick up your first and last name. I think that's exactly right. And if we're right, then the difference between this and a Twitter handle is you'll actually own it. And I think that that's a big deal. And I've talked talked about this before, but those Twitter handles, some of them are worth a million dollars, and you don't get to benefit from any of that. Twitter gets 100%. But for blockchain domain names, it's really user-owned and it's also portable too. So we're hoping that if it does become an SSO-like solution, it would actually work across multiple social apps. My mind is going towards machine-to-machine payments, even. If we live in a world where

machines are able to communicate with each other and send microtransactions and things like that, you could imagine these type of domains being the basis for that type of engagement. Well, I can tell you at least as a developer that I definitely try to name my endpoints when I'm fiddling around in the code because it's a lot easier to remember a name than it is to accidentally send it to the wrong crypto address. And then you also get indirection, which is an important thing for programming. So if someone makes an update to where they need to be paid, everyone who wants to pay them doesn't have to also be updated. They can just remember to pay Matt Walsh.compto. And if you change your addresses, then that'll be reflected. So I agree.

I mean, if you have any type of business. at scale where you're going to be making updates to payment information, which happens all the time, change banks or what have you, then yeah, it's going to make it a lot easier. People don't fully appreciate the challenges and just the white knuckle experiences around blockchain addresses. I remember when we first launched a fund under Fidelity's umbrella and we were engaged in Bitcoin transactions, having to just put a process in place where multiple people had to look over my shoulder to read out the full address just to make sure we didn't fat finger or anything. It's just a stressful experience.

So as a community, the entire crypto community needs to make UX just significantly better. And I imagine a future state where if you send a transaction, you'll have all sorts of guarantees around that transaction before you send it. And even a simple thing like being able to view the person's profile picture and Twitter and know that that's accurate, or you could get a confirmation even before you send a transaction. You're already seeing this on exchanges when you try to send money to addresses. I think Coinbase did this recently. There was a known scam where they were tricking people into sending money from Coinbase to that scam. And if you try to input in that address to that scam address,

they would send you an alert to let you know that you were being scammed on Coinbase. And so the neat thing about blockchain domains is that it's going to be easier for that second layer of information to be built in. Because if you post your Bitcoin address on your YouTube channel or something, that can change or whatever. And it's hard to tie back to you. But if you post your name, Matt Walsh, And then that's one that you use consistently for receiving your payments.

It'll be much easier for these analytics to profile you on that address and be able to tell people when I'm sending money to Matt Walsh, like, oh, yeah, this is the Matt Walsh you meant to send it to. And we don't have any evidence that this guy's running a scam or fraud or something like that. So I think that I'm very bullish on the importance of having some sort of way to tie these very complex and hard to remember cryptocurrency endpoints to some. sort of real-world identity.

And do you think that this is a winner take-all at the protocol layer? I know that you're operating on several blockchains at this point. Do you think we naturally converge onto one? And I guess also, how do you just stay up on the various projects as an entrepreneur in this space? I would not have had a solid answer for you maybe six months ago. But what I'm seeing now makes me think that there are going to be a few dominant blockchains in the space.

So I think it's going to be more like an oligopoly than I'm. monopoly. And really the trick is, can you get a big enough ecosystem of people working together on a project? I think the underlying technology of smart contract, blockchain, with a certain base level of functionality and APIs and dev tools, we've finally gotten past that part. And it's really about the community building on top. The other thing that I think is going to lead to an oligopoly as opposed to a monopoly or like a huge open market of endless competitors is that you don't I have to interact with a thousand different blockchains from a developer's perspective. So you would rather there would be just a few.

And then the reason why I don't think you're going to get to a monopoly is because there are some use cases where it's better to have a blockchain that's like tailor made to your specific use case. And I think the best example of that is probably Bitcoin as a store of value. Even if Bitcoin doesn't ever do anything else, I think that it's doing a really great job is serving as a decentralized store value. Then on the smart contract blockchain side, the reason why I think you're going to have an oligopoly is that the few competitors in this space who get enough of a community are going to be able to pull ahead such that it's going to be hard for anyone else to catch them. That makes sense.

What's it been like as an entrepreneur in this space? Obviously, we went through many cycles at this point. And obviously at this point, we're coming into a pretty significant bull market here. What's it been like to just start this business and ride it through the cycles? Anyone who does start us will tell you that it's tough because it's always extremely. volatile. And then I would say crypto is even harder because it's another 5x volatility on top of the normal volatility that you would have from experiencing a startup. The best thing you can do is stay level-headed. And this is what I try to do. Like, we're here to build a product.

We come into work every day and we ship the product. And I think there was a meme going around on Twitter. It's like, hooray, Bitcoin hit all-time high, now back to work. And you have to have that mentality in crypto even more so than in normal startups. Normal startups is the same way. because if you get distracted, you'll have some really good months and then you have some really bad months because you're still figuring things out. So I would say that's the worst part. It is kind of an emotional roller coaster. On the upside, though, it is looking extremely bullish this year and going into next year. It's definitely looking like we're about to enter another investment cycle for crypto. There's a lot of need for investment in this space. I've said this before,

too. It's chronically underinvested because it's at the corner of weird and new. And I think a lot of people are turned off from Bitcoin and blockchain. A lot of traditional investors have been in the past because it was hard to understand. And it's also kind of a quirky new technology that's coming out. So I'm looking forward to this next investment cycle. I welcome. I think if you're a young entrepreneur and you're looking for a growing space, this is a great place to be. Just stay heads down and focused. I think you'll be more than happy to the results in a few years. Absolutely. So this has been great, Matthew. Where can we send people to learn more about unstoppable domains? Yes, definitely. Check us out at unstoppable.com.

We're also on Twitter at Unstoppable Web. And we also recently launched a podcast, The Unstoppable Podcast, with Matthew Gould. That's me. So download the podcast, follow us on Twitter, check us out on our website. We also have Telegram and other social channels. You're welcome to join. And we look forward to having you. Well, a huge fan of what you're building.

So continued success. And thanks for coming on the podcast. Thanks, Matt. Thanks for listening to another episode of On the Brink with Castle Island. To find out more about Castle Island, visit Castle Island.V.C. To listen to all of our podcast episodes, please go to On the Brink-Podcast.com or just click on the tab in our website. Thanks for listening.