On The Brink with Castle Island - NFTs as the gateway to mainstream adoption with Gmoney (EP.251)

Episode Date: October 18, 2021

We had the pleasure of hosting NFT collector, Gmoney, on the show. He is a former equities trader turned NFT collector, educator, and expert. In this episode, we unpack the community, stories, and experiences Gmoney has amassed during his time in the NFT space and discuss the following: Gmoney's "aha" moment about the massive supercycle taking place in digital goods The shift in ownership and value accrual from the hands of a few investors to everyone interacting with crypto networks Gmoney's first NFT experience that allowed him to use NFTs as collateral for, what was at the time, the largest on-chain loan The factors that Gmoney considers in evaluating and investing in NFTs (above all, community) and more This was an enlightening discussion that really opened our eyes to the impact NFTs will have on the industry.   Sponsor notes  This episode is brought to you by Withum, a top 25 accounting firm with a cutting-edge Digital Currency and Blockchain Technology practice. To learn more, visit  withum.com/crypto.

And this episode is brought to you by Witham. Witham is a top 25 accounting firm. They have a cutting edge digital currency and blockchain technology practice. Wherever your company is from a stage perspective, from pre-seed to IPO, they have tailored solutions just for you. They have helped some of the largest companies in the crypto industry with audit, tax, and advisory needs. And they've also helped a number of our portfolio companies.

To learn more about advisory, audit, and tax services, head over to on the brink. dot link slash with them. That's on the brink. dot link slash with them. Welcome to On the Brink. I had the pleasure of co-hosting G Money on the show today with Hunter, our executive and residents at Castle Island. G Money is an equities trader turned NFT collector, educator, and expert. The community, the stories and experiences that Gmoney has built and amassed in just a few

months is unparalleled. In this episode, G Money Hunter and I unpack a lot. We talk about G Money's aha moment about the massive super cycle taking place in digital goods that was ignited when he bought a PlayStation and started playing Fortnite with his friends and their nephews. We talk about the paradigm shift that crypto enables in value accrual from a handful of investors to everyone that's building and interacting with the underlying protocols. We touch upon G Money's first NFT experiences uniting NIFTX and NFTFI that allowed him to take out what was at that point the biggest loan using NFTs as collateral, as well as the factors that are most important to G Money when he invests in NFTs, notably their historical

relevance, their aesthetics, and above all their community. This was an eye-opening discussion that really hammered in the magnitude of the impact that NFTs will have on the industry and other industries. And in G-Money's words, NFTs as the Trojan horse that will take crypto mainstream. So with that, let's get into the conversation. Matt Walsh and Nick Carter are partners at Castle Island Ventures. All of these expressed by them or the guests on this podcast are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Castle Island Ventures. You should not treat any opinion expressed by anyone on this podcast as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of their personal opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only.

Brought down by bad mortgage investments, Lehman, which has 25,000 employees, will be liquidated. The federal government loans American International Group, AIG, $85 billion. This is a different kind of market, and the Fed is asleep. The federal government is stepping it to stabilize Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the two mortgage giants that have been threatened by the housing. crisis. The bank of England has pumped 75 billion pounds more into Britain's ailing economy with a new round of quantitative easing. You print a couple trillion dollars and all of a sudden people start to worry. So out of this worry, we have something called the Bitcoin. Bitcoin. Hey everyone. This is Ria from Castle Island Ventures. We have G Money on the podcast today and I'm

joined by Hunter Merckhart, executive in residence at Castle Island Ventures, who's going to be co-hosting with me. So G Money. You bring a unique lens to NFTs and you have a really interesting NFT collector origin story. Before we dive in, could you give us a quick introduction? Tell us about your background pre-crypto, when and how you got involved in the industry and how you built this brand around NFTs. Cool. Yeah, awesome. Thank you for having me on both of you guys. I've been listening to the show for a while. So it's nice to be on it. Yeah, so I've been an equities trader, or I guess I was an equities trader for 15 years. I'm mostly trading my own money.

And I traded long, short, U.S. equities, prop. And I was a generalist, right? So I knew a little bit, I know a little bit about a lot of different industries. So I got involved in crypto in 2017. And in Q1 of 2018, I sold everything that I had that was liquid because at the time I was looking around and a lot of it felt like it could have been vaporware. And again, like I thought blockchain check was great that it was going to change the world. But I thought it was maybe like 10 years away.

And at the time, like I, you know, I still had like a good equities business. So I wasn't willing to pivot full time into crypto at that point. But I knew I wanted to keep an eye out on him. And in Q1 of 2020, the day Powell said he was going to buy all bonds. That was like my first crypto purchase in about three years. And I wired a bunch of money over to Coinbase. I bought a bunch of ETH and I started going back down the rabbit hole. I had a couple venture investments that I had made last cycle that were starting to unlock.

And that was like in June, July, which was like right towards the beginning slash middle of Defi summer. And I was like, oh my God. Like they built everything so fast. And, you know, like I started the yield farming and I was just like learning, listening to a bunch of podcasts, reading as much as I could, just trying to catch up on the space. and everything that happened while it was back in equities. And it wasn't until late August, early September at the end of D5 summer that I found out what NFTs were. And right there, like, I'm going to just stop and rewind for a second because the reason why

NFTs made so much sense to me was because on the first day of quarantine last year, I bought a PlayStation. I hadn't played a video game in over 10 years. I download Fortnite. I started playing Fortnite with my friends and their 12-year-old nephews. the first thing these kids asked me is what skins did you buy? And I'm like skins that's stupid. Like they don't give me any special powers.

I'm not buying any skins. Two, three weeks later, I'm buying like any kind of cool skin I can get my hands on. And like it was then that I really noticed. I'm like, wow, there's this massive super cycle here. Right. Because like that kid is changing his skin every game, which is every 15 to 20 minutes. So he's changing what his appearance looks like every 15 or 20 minutes in this game. And I'm like, that kid's 12 years old.

now 10 years from now he's going to be 22 he's going to have his own discretionary income and he's going to spend it the way he wants and he's going to be totally okay with completely digital ownership right and so I sat there and I thought about it and again coming from the public markets I'm like you know if roblox was public I would have bought roblox right and at the time it wasn't and I was looking there and I was like all right just keep an eye on this right like this is definitely a trend to keep an eye on. And I think my entire like career, I understood consumer trends pretty early. Like my best trade up until this year was I was interning going into my senior year of college in 2003. I was on the subway. And back then the MP3 market was massively fragmented, right?

Everyone had an MP3 player. And I'm looking around the subway and I see everybody with these white headphones in their ears. And I'm like, oh, that's the original iPod. Yeah, that's the original iPod. I bought Apple calls at the time. I think Apple, I don't know what it is split adjusted now, but like at the time it was like $10 a share. I bought the $20 calls for $62 a share each. And I ended up selling them later for $49 a share each. And like so that really early on in my career,

and I had a couple trades like that throughout my career where I just spotted a consumer trend really early because it's just naturally, I'm naturally observant as to like what's going on. And that to me like kind of applied to these things. digital skins and these assets. And I'm like, all right, like, when I find a way to get involved into this trade, I'm going to take advantage of it. And so when I found out what NFTs were, and I started going down that rabbit hole, it very quickly understood that, like, especially, like,

you know, as I'm spending more time on crypto Twitter, on Discord, on Telegram, your profile picture is your skin. That's how I want the world to see me. So then I sit there and I'm like, okay, like, you know, I originally, when I found NFTs, like, I wanted to find the next Cryptopunks, I didn't want crypto puns. I'm like, oh, my God, these things are $1,000 each. Like, I'm not, I'm not going to pay up for them. But, like, as I spent more time on Discord and Crypto Twitter, I realized that, like, some of the most OG smartest people in the space that understood crypto that were the

most successful had crypto punks as their avatars. And, like, once I realized that, I'm like, oh, this is like a digital Rolex, a digital protect, whatever it is, right? Like, kind of like the same way that a $5. Cassio watch can tell you the time, right? But people will still spend tens, hundreds of thousand dollars on a watch that really has no extra utility, right? That would start happening more and more digitally on chain because you don't even have to worry at that point about like, you know, fakes or any of that because you can like verify the transaction, you know? So it's like,

to me, it just started making so much sense because I took like human psychology and how like humans interact with each other in the real world and be like, just because we're behind computer screens doesn't mean we're going to be any different, you know? And so when that made sense to me, I was like, oh, like, this is at the time, obviously punks have appreciated a ton, but especially then, I was like, this is a massively underpriced call option on Ethereum, right? And to me, that was like, that's like the best kind of play you can make, right? Is like an option that doesn't expire is literally like the holy grail that you want for massive return. So that's kind of like how I got into the space. And when I bought my punk, I,

I wrote this thread about it because I realized that people weren't thinking about it or seeing the space. Like, you know, there's obviously a lot of really smart people in crypto, but for some reason they were missing this, this part. And I saw like, hey, this is an opportunity for me to one, I feel like I understand it. And to try to educate it and try to get that word out there so that putting it in a way that maybe like more people could understand it. And, you know, I wrote that thread. It went viral on crypto Twitter. at the time Bitcoin, I think the day I bought it, Bitcoin might have pulled back from 30,000 to 20,000 that week. And I'm like, oh, man, like signs at the top.

But, you know, like I was like, you know, this is the bet that I made. And, you know, I was willing to stand by it. I thought everything that's happening, I thought would happen. But I thought it would take like three to five years. You know, like when I bought my ape, I was like, oh, I'm going to be the first person to sell a crypto punk at Sotheby's or Christie's in five years for like $5 million. Like that's what I was thinking. And then lo and behold, like five months later, we have an alien selling for 17. Right.

So it's been really surreal. It's been a great, a great ride. And it's, it's been like really exhilarating. Being able to be part of something, and I'm sure you guys feel the same too, where it's like coming from equities and Hunter, we know each other from that previous life. Where it's like, what you do as an equities trader, like doesn't necessarily matter, right? Whereas like in crypto, you could have one token, a thousand token. no tokens, and you can still like make a difference if you have, like it's a true meritocracy, right?

You can make a difference if you have a good idea. And that to me has been like so fun to be a part of. Yeah. And this is Hunter here. And gee, thanks so much for joining the podcast today. It is great to reconnect with you over everything crypto related. I think we first met in 2014 when we were both in equities together. And I think you make a lot of amazing points, especially for kind of the Castle Island audience,

which, you know, tends towards. a little more institutional where the skills and the tools that so many public equity investors use to kind of determine value are pretty transferable to crypto. And also the beauty of crypto is that instead of waiting until a company goes public to be able to participate in that trend or that company that you believe in, in crypto, everybody has the ability to go buy an an NFT if they'd notice, you know, they like the art or if they think there's going to be utility in that too. And you don't have to, there's no gating factors around them. I do think that's, that is the beauty of this asset class as it grows. And I think the other part that you talked about

is the utility aspect, which we really haven't even dived into yet. But, you know, Rolex is just a signaling mechanism. But what if you could, you know, use a digital asset, an NFT and, you know, get real utility out of that? Shouldn't that be worth more than a Rolex? Yeah, for sure. And I think that's the world we're going to get into. Yeah, I'm just really as excited as you are about the whole space. And like to, yeah. And like to your point too, right, like just crypto in general, it's not just NFTs. And I always use this example when I was describing yield farming to people last summer where it's like, imagine if 10 years ago, however long ago Uber came out, if instead of getting a $25 ride credit for each person you referred, you got $25 worth of stock. Like would we be talking about

competition for Uber today? For better or worse? I'd, you know, that's a, you know, that's a a different discussion, but like that's kind of what is happening with these protocols, right? It's like if you use it, like the value accrual doesn't just go to a handful of people that are investors or whatever. It goes to everybody, right? So you have this incentivized mechanism to, you know, I'm preaching to the choir here. Like you guys definitely agree with this. But, but that's how I try to describe it to people, right? Where, you know, you get that that scalability and that helps the protocols grow. And the interoperability, I think, you know, going back to your example of noticing the MP3 market going from being really fragmented to having this unified

way of interacting through Apple that kind of flattened the experience with NFTs, you have this level of interoperability that you don't have with like closed video game environments and closed ecosystems. It just expands the pie so much more. So, you know, you mentioned a few things that you used to get smart on NFTs, Discord, Twitter, What was that process like? You know, at what point did you start engaging with these communities more? And then was Cryptopunk your first NFT purchase? And then what's been like your path either prior or after that?

Okay. So yeah, punk's were, I was buying a lot of NFTs before that. My first NFT purchase was actually a Crypto Kitty. I read something on Twitter that was talking about this Crypto Kitty that was being sharded so it was being fractionalized on niftex. And on the tweet, like, somebody was like, oh, there's going to like two or three X right. I'm like, I want a two or three X my money real quick. And so I like bought a bunch of shards. It immediately went down 50%. And I was like, oh my God, what am I to do here? I either take the loss and like there's no liquidity. So like I'd be selling it

down to like down 90% or the way that that platform works is you do a shotgun option. So I can buy everybody out at a certain price, but they can turn around and buy me out at that price. So I was like, all right, if I make my money back and like, you know, I'm going to buy it out for whatever we all got in at. And if people buy me out and I get my eth back, like, I don't care. I'm fine. I just walk away. But also, but if I buy it out, like I actually did some research this time. I'm like, all right, I could probably make like an extra five or seven eth or something.

So I'm like, all right, I'll buy it out at cost with knowing those parameters. I put the buyout in. It's a two-week buyout period. during that time I find NFTFI, which is a lending platform for NFTs. And so I was like, all right, maybe if I buy this out, I'm going to post it as collateral. I was buying it out for 50th, which at the time was $25,000. So I buy it out for that. And I sit there and I'm like, all right, I'm going to post it as collateral.

If I can get $10,000 against it and I'm going to go long, eth with that. And like I'm learning the ecosystem, right? So it's like these numbers at the time, it was like the biggest on chain. loan, but like for me, it was like, I'm learning, right? Because if I'm doing it with like $500, it's not enough skin in the game. And so I was just like, I wanted it something that's like, all right, I care about this. And so I posted as collateral, hoping to get $10,000. Within three or four days, I get a $25,000 loan against it. And like, you know, full cash out refy. And I go long, ETH at around 550. I end up paying back the loan, I think in like March or something, when

ETH is at like 1800. So obviously, and I'm still long in the asset. So like the trade was was really good. But at the time when I took out the loan and like, it went through, I was like, oh my God, like this is going to change the world. Right. Like you're talking about, you know, the first time I used AVE, I was like, this is going to change the world. Like like a collateralized loan with no KYC in under five minutes. And now we're taking that the next level where like, you know, in NFT, right, something that's not fungible. So there's no necessary market for it. But like, you know, we're at the beginning of like all these things that like you see in the real world at the super high end, right? If I have a hundred.

million dollar painting, somebody's going to get me a loan for it, right? But like if I have a $10,000 painting, it's probably really hard to get it because the cost of insurance, the cost of appraisal, and all these different things that, you know, all these costs that add up that all of a sudden, it doesn't make sense to get a loan against it, right? But now because of the nature of crypto and because of digital assets, you know, you scale not to the high end, but down to the low end, right? And you make these tools that are once only available to the richest people in the world, now available to everybody. So I literally, when that happened, that entire transaction happened, I was like,

this is even crazier than defy. Like, this is so amazing. And that's when I like, I started going down the rabbit all. I started listening to podcast. I was on Twitter all day, on Discord, going into a bunch of discords. And like I said, like Cryptopunks were not my first purchase. I didn't want crypto banks at first because my first thought was they were ugly. And my second thought was like, they're too expensive.

I want to find the next one. But then as I spent more time in the community, and now, like, I, it's funny because, like, now I look at crypto ones. I'm like, oh, that's a, you know, that's a really good looking punk. Like, I really like that. And it's funny because, like, they, not only do they grow on you, but, like, you really love them. Yeah. So the way I got into punks was at the time, Chromy Squiggles had just started minting. And I found Chromy Squiggles on Twitter.

And I was trying to do because you had to, like, it was minting. You were able to mint them for, like, a month and a half or two months. but you had to mint them one at a time. So I was trying to find like a batch because I knew how many, like how much I wanted to spend notionally. And I'm like, all right, like I'm going to be sitting here for like hours like minting this thing. I'm like there has to be some sort of batch function. So I tried going into the Discord and like I couldn't find the Discord link on their Twitter. And so I literally just sat there for the first day like for an hour and a half or something just minting squiggles.

All right. And so then like I go through this like hour, hour and a half marathon. on. And then at the end of it, like, I'm like, all right, cool. Like, let me check in on, like, discords or whatever. And somebody that had noticed me that, you know, because I swept a couple floors at that point and other projects and they noticed my wallet from other projects. They literally just sent me the link to the ArtBlocks Discord. And the ArtBlock's Discord was going nuts because, like, they're like, who is this guy G Money that's literally just buying all, like minting nonstop? Like, people were, I was reading it like after the fact, people were running

home because people wanted certain numbers because I started minting like I think like 17 or 1800 and I minted straight up to like 2100. So people wanted like birth years, the year 2000, all these mints. And people were like literally like I have to go home. This guy is going to mint them all like I want a shot at it. And so then like I go in there and Snowfro, the founder of Art Blocks, who's also an original punk holder and punk claimer. He literally was like, dude, like you have to buy a zombie. Like, there's no way you could spend this much money on our blocks right now and not own, not just punks, but like elite punks.

And so, you know, after two or three days, like talking to him, he red pilled me, a couple other guys were talking to me. And I was like, all right, this makes a lot of sense to me now. So I bought a zombie. I was looking for that ape or an ape. And then that ape became available and I bought that ape about a month later. You bring up a really interesting point. And I was actually reading about this.

I think it was in Zeneca's newsletter where he talks about, like, buying NFTs that are aesthetically pleasing versus buying NFTs for other reasons, like their cultural significance, the community around them. How do you kind of balance the two? I generally try to buy things that I find aesthetically pleasing. I also think, like, there's a couple of things. Like, I want ones that are historically relevant, right? That I think will hold more likely to hold their value over time. and I want them to be aesthetically pleasing, but also I want that community.

Those are probably like the three main things that I look for because and I think this is like one of like the killer, the killer things that NFTs have is that like defy is very mercenary, right? Like if my yield goes down, I'm out. Right. Like it's that simple. But NFTs are like really different. And like you see this all the time where people always like,

oh, like if you really, if you really like a project, don't buy one by like at least two, maybe three because you're going to never want to sell that one, right? And everybody says this about ones that they like. And there's like some sort of attachment there that happens. And it's really crazy and awesome to see because that's just like how humans work, right? It's like you get when there's something personified and there's like a community involved, it's much harder for you to leave that community than if you're just like, all right, well, like this yield is no longer 10 million percent. So like I'm out. Right. So like to me, that's like one of those things that I think that's the real killer use of NFTs is the community that

around them. I also think that's the beauty of NFTs and where crypto is going now. Crypto started in a lot of ways as retail and hobbyists, you know, getting involved. And then I certainly turned into now institutions and real large financial players like the, you know, HFT shops out there, like the jumps of the world, getting involved. Whereas NFTs, it feels the same way. It's retail. It's people that are passionate. But it's also, I think, the way that, you know, the community, crypto in general on boards the next billion users, right? Where it's no longer just about trading financial assets, just about speculation. It's about getting passionate about your interest, whether that's music NFTs or it's art

NFTs. And I think it's a much more easy way for people to grasp some of that. I totally agree. Like I always say that NFTs are the Trojan horse that take crypto mainstream, right? Because like making money is great and a lot of people are motivated by that, but not everybody is motivated by playing a money game, right? Not everybody wants to yield for them all day and, you know, worry about like where to get the max. And like that's a full time job. You know, like not everybody can do that.

But people inherently understand community, collecting things, right? Like appreciating art and wanting to be part of something bigger. And that like to me has really been like that amazing part that NFTs have brought that. that maybe, you know, like I think we've seen that tribalism, right, with regards, you know, the maxis of whatever chain it is or whatever. But, and you see it a little bit in NFTs, but I think we're going to start seeing more collaboration going forward. And I think just a lot of the ideas that are floating each and every day where I'm like, oh, wow, like, I never thought about that. But what if we did try that, right? The same concepts and the same thought process that we're seeing last summer with Defi, you know, now we're starting to see like with NFTs where it's like, well, what if we did try that?

You know, maybe it doesn't work, but maybe it leads us to a solution that does. I think it's also because if you think about different fungible assets, you know, there are so many disagreements around the tradeoffs that they make and the, like, technical specifications. But with NFTs, you're starting from a relatively similar technical playing ground that everyone agrees with. And then you just can't argue that they're strong communities for different NFT assets. So I feel like there's a lot more openness and people get excited whether you see someone massive buy an NFT that they're holding or an NFT that they're not holding. There's generally very welcoming.

To that point is like I use like Western consumerism as a great example, right? Like if I'm wearing like a Christian Dior shirt and you're wearing a Louis Vuitton shirt, like I don't hate your guts, right? You know, it's just like, hey, that's how you choose to express yourself. It's a social signal. Yeah. And that's fine, right? you know, and I think that that's kind of what NFTs are allowing for now.

Yeah. One thing that we just mentioned right now, and I think you talk about a lot, is this idea of community being like the strongest factor behind different NFT projects. And one of the key things that you and other collectors use to evaluate, whether you want to participate in a specific NFT, what specifically do you look at to evaluate the strength of a community, especially if it's an early? project. So I generally, because I know my wallet is tracked, I generally try to stay away from minting stuff on mince. I usually buy something later, so I'll miss like the initial run up,

but I wait for like a community to establish itself. And to me, it's just like kind of like the vibe that I get from, you know, who do I see that's that I follow, that I trust that's like interacting with it. How do I see, you know, if I go into the Discord, what's the Discord like, right like you know i think right now arplocs probably has the best community out there you know for the longest but like you know cryptodes which just came out like a month ago also had this incredible community that's been forming around them and it's still very nascent right so it's still too early to say you know if it has staying power or not but like it's just like those vibes that you kind of get and like it's really tough to like quantify but like it's like i know it when i see it

type of thing, right? Yeah. And I feel like it also matters, like, the team behind the NFT. So I feel like behind Cryptoads, it was. Gremlin, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Who's one of the founders of Nounthau, yeah. You know, which is founded by 4156, who's also, like, I think, one of the smartest minds in the NFT space. Yeah. Totally. Who are some of your favorite creators and projects? So you mentioned a few, obviously, punks.

So, yeah. Yeah. I love punks. I'm a big punk's art blocks. fan. I think what Snowfro is doing for generative art is incredible. And a lot of the proliferation that we've seen in the generative art space is because of the work that Snowfro has been doing. More recently, I like Cryptotes. But these are all like projects that have now, you know, they're no longer cheap necessarily by most people's standards. I think Justin Arvassano,

who actually just had an auction today at Christie's, is probably the best community builder I've seen in crypto, where he's able to connect with people both physically and digital. and really like foster those connections and grow a huge community. And I think that like, again, I think he's like a perfect example where the first time I met him, he DM me on Instagram because I was either mentioned another post. I was talking on Clubhouse, but he DM me on Instagram because he heard I spent $150,000 on a crypto punk. And he was like, oh, like, do you want to buy these 100 photos from his collection?

And, you know, it's linked to an NFT for $100,000. And I was like, no, but what I think you should do is keep the physicals and do something with them later, make 100 NFTs and sell them for $1,000 each. I thought I would hear from him like two, three weeks later, a couple months later. He texted me back in three days was like, I sold out. Like, you don't understand. You changed my life. Like, you know, I was $100,000 in debt.

I'm now out of debt. He's since gone on to like be very well recognized in the space. and that same set that he initially wanted to sell to me for $100,000 just got sold today at Christie's for $1.1 million after the buyer's premium. And so that, like, that just tells you how powerful the community is, right? Like, if I had just bought that by myself at that time, it wouldn't have appreciated the way it did because he wouldn't have been an active member in the community, like working for specifically what he works towards is photography entities, right?

And bringing photography on chain. Yeah, I mean, also good on. for giving him that advice and helping him realize that, like, building a community is so much more important than... Yeah, he knew it, he knew it innately. Like, he, he just took it and ran with it. And, like, he, you know, all the credit goes to him because he's been an incredible person to have in the space, especially with regards to onboarding, like, the fine art world and getting contemporary art involved. So we've talked about PFP's generative art, photography. Where do you think the application of NFT technology and standards is most interesting.

Where do you think we go from here? So yeah, I mean, this is my bull case for NFTs, right? It's like it all started with quote unquote worthless pictures, right? Because to me, everything in the real world is an NFT, right? So you're wearing a shirt, I'm wearing a shirt. If we exchange shirts, we have different values, right? When these things come on chain, they're going to come on chain as NFTs. So then when we take that, like iterate that one step high.

hire, right? A mortgage is an NFT. A home is an NFT. A deed is an NFT. All these things that are worth trillions of dollars in assets are all NFTs. And it's like if you have a bullcase of things going more digital in the future and that digital future possibly being decentralized in some way, shape, or form, there's no other way they can come on chain other than something that is not fungible. Right. And so then like when I think about that and I'm like, all right, well, what if we had like a CMBS index that was totally on chain and you don't have counterparty risk. 2008 doesn't happen, right? Or it's not as magnified as it is, right?

And so to me, like, that's the really cool stuff where it's like, yes, it starts with these quote unquote worthless JPEGs because you're not going to bring a trillion dollars of mortgages on chain and have it get hacked and then everything's ruined. It's like, you know, the TVL over time, you know, as that honeypot gets bigger, the system becomes more secure, right? So to me, it's like, that's what. makes me so bullish on them. And that's why, you know, at the beginning of this year, I was willing to pivot away from my previous life into crypto full time because I was like, you know, I see it,

right? Like, this is the future. And I don't think it's that far off, right? Like, you know, judging by how fast things iterate and how fast people build because of the open sourceness, because of people willing to work together, it's like, this is going to happen like sooner rather than later. And that's what makes me bullish on all of it. Yeah. It feels like the Mark Andresen saying, right, where it's software is eating the world, crypto is eating software, right? Every day. And I think, you know, there are more and more unbelievably smart engineers who are getting

so passionate about this because it is a white space opportunity. It does feel like in a lot of ways, you know, I think we're about the same age, G, and I don't want to docks you here. I think you're the first synonymous person we've had on the Castle Island on the Brink podcast. But it does feel like, to me, in a lot of ways, the early days, you know, of the internet, MP3s, IRC channels, you know, where it felt like building your own computer in your basement and playing around with stuff, you know, that kind of

has gone away with all the walled gardens that have been created on the internet with, you know, the big Amazon Fang companies of the world out there, whereas this feels kind of, you know, like pirate radio in a lot of ways. And I think it's exciting for, you know, folks even younger than us who don't have all these preconceived notions that what the value is in the real world, if you're living most of your life digitally on Instagram, Twitter, Discord, Twitch, video games, to your point, why shouldn't there be more value created there in the future? And is NFTs the way that happens. Even you, someone who is super bullish on this space, like, overestimated how long it would take

for us to get from where we were when you started in September, October 2020 to where we are now. So I think we really underestimate how quickly this space infiltrates different sectors. Yeah, no, I agree. And I think something that you guys see too probably is that there's obviously a lack of solidity depths, right? Because there's a lot of demand for them. But I think the interesting thing that we're all seeing now that we didn't see with

Defi is that you're getting a lot of these engineers from these fang names, right? people that work at these consumer-facing products that are solid engineers that are now being like, hey, what's going on over here? Right. Because like when defy was born and defy is definitely very essential to all of this, right? Like none of this operates without defy. But like there's complex stuff, right? It's not consumer facing.

You have to be like a certain niche of being like, oh, I understand this and I want to help build this. I want to work on it. But, you know, if you're a software engineer at Apple or Amazon or Google and you start seeing, oh, there's like a consumer facing application here. And guess what? Like that's what I specialize in. And this is really cool.

And I want to work with it. And like I vibe with the mentality. Like you're going to see, I think, even more and more brain drain coming from like legacy tech and big tech into crypto, which I think is incredible. I'm sure you guys are seeing a ton of that too. Like I just meeting more and more people every day that are like, yeah, I'm an engineer at, you know, XYZ big tech company. And I think it is interesting. because, you know, everyone wants to say, well, crypto's only speculation and, you know, what are the real use cases here?

What are people doing? But that's kind of the way everything has gotten kickstarted, where in the early days when, you know, some of us were trying to get into the industry, there wasn't that much money to pay anyone. There wasn't anything. And even if you were passionate about it, there weren't that many jobs out there. And now that the industry is starting to take over art, music, you know, tech, finance, there are jobs out there. And because of the asset class appreciation, I think Bitcoin just wants to be.

over a trillion dollars again today in terms of a total market cap, there is money to pay people for these jobs. Nobody wants to do anything for free no matter how passionate you are about it. So I think that's where things are getting really, really interesting because you can, you know, hire people from these traditional, you know, industries into really, really high growth startup companies and you can get the best people to do that. So I only think it's going to be this exponential growth we're going to see moving forward. Yeah. And like to me, it reminds me a lot of like when I first found Ethereum in 2017. The reason why I wanted to put more of my portfolio in EF than BTC was because like I looked at like the developers alliance and looked at like the companies that were involved.

I'm like, well, you go where the talent is. Right. Like there's people developing on Ethereum. I want to buy Ethereum. Right. And like now if you're going to follow the talent, if people are just going into crypto from legacy tech, like that's where I want to be focused on. Right, because you're going to find the smartest and the brightest minds moving towards wherever they find the best opportunity. For sure. Another thing I would love to pick your brain on. So we've talked about, you know, human capital moving into crypto.

But another thing we're seeing is corporates moving into crypto and especially NFTs. So, you know, I think you helped Visa buy a crypto punk. And subsequently we saw Arizona iced tea buy a board ape. Budweiser bought, I think a Budweiser themed, rocket or something like that. And I'm probably missing more. And you had this great thread on NFTs allowing marketing departments at these corporations to turn from a cost center into a profit center. Could you elaborate a little bit on that? Yeah. I mean, I think like, you know, the way I see the space is very much like if I can help these large corporations or people have influenced understand how big the massive opportunities that is. And they start moving. there, like, these are large corporations, right? So they move slowly by default. But if they start

moving now, you know, as opposed to 12 or 18 months from now, like, we're just going to bring the future here that much faster. So I've like taken it upon myself to try to educate as many people as I can at the highest level of whoever will listen to me at these organizations. And so, yeah, one of the things that like I really realized is like, you know, I sold Visa their crypto punk. Obviously that made news. there was a, you know, a Bloomberg headline about it, right? Like, it was all over the news. And like to them, that's not a sunk cost. That's not like they spent, I forgot exactly, $150,000 and like they're never going to see it again, right? That's an asset now on their balance sheet, which is like unheard of for marketing, right? Like, it's like if you spend $100,000,

you expect your ROI to be X off that and, you know, how many sales you got. And there's, like, there's all these calculations that they do off that. But how much more power to, does that give you as an organization? And if all of a sudden you're instead of being like that $150,000 is gone, hopefully we get more than $150,000 in sales, it's like, hey, you know, we're doing something authentic. We're integrating with the community, the people that we want to be part of our community, right?

And we have this asset now, right? Like that switches the entire model on its head, right? Where you're now talking about a red line item on the income statement, now becoming black, right? And like, what does that do for margins? And it's like thinking about that from like a business standpoint, it's like it would be very unwise to dismiss NFTs in general simply because you don't understand it. It's like take the time to understand it and you'll realize like, wow, like I can. And you see this on the creator level. And I think we're going to start seeing it on a corporation level where it's like how can I interact with my target client or consumer?

but instead of having them just be like a dollar sign, they're part of the community, right? So the Budweiser, the Budweiser ship, like that was done by Tom Sacks, who's a big contemporary artist, who's recently come into the space. And, you know, a lot of his real world stuff is focused on consumerism

and space and a lot of this cool stuff. So he came in very authentic. And, you know, Budweiser was like, hey, like, we like that message. We like what you're doing. And like engaging with the community, will like it gets like more endearment out of the fans right and so like i think it's like you're going to see more and more of these brands working on this right so it's like visa bought a crypto punk

i'm pretty sure the heads of american express master card and discover were all looking at what they did but now they can't buy a crypto punk because like that's been done right so it's like what are you going to do that's going to be more authentic how are you going to connect to your consumers so like to me it's like creating these communities and not just seeing them as dollar signs but more so is including them and being like, hey, this is our mission. And if you're cool with that, like, and you want to be part of it, like, let's do it together, right? Yeah, I think that's such a good point. Like, you've seen a handful of corporates just go out and buy and hold an NFT on their balance sheet.

But that's going to feel inauthentic if the next five to 100 corporates do it. So I'm excited to see how they kind of leverage this technology to do more creative things. and think of more creative ways to interact with their communities, with their fans. I think it was punk 4156 that had a thread about how all merchandise will be accompanied by an NFT in the future. It's like that's, yeah, they're thinking about it. Yeah, I mean, I agree with that, right? I agree with that comment 100%.

And I think that, like, not only do you have that, but just in every facet, right? It's like how, you know, how can you incentivize loyal customers, right? Like how can you find your community? And like, I think it's very different from Web 2, right? Because Web 2 is like, let's get as much information about you and we're going to target ads towards you, right? But like, you know, what do you really need to know about somebody other than like what's in their wallet, right? Like if I own a punk and I own an ape and I own an art blocks, like, today it's very basic, right? Because we're just building the social graph right now.

but like, you know, 10 years from now, it's like, oh, if this person has a Starbucks NFT and, you know, they shop a Banana Republic, like, what does that say about it? You don't need to know their name, their age, where they're born or any of that, right? Because you can kind of infer that from things that are available on chain. And then that protects privacy, right? Like, I don't have to worry about, yeah, sure, maybe I'll get like an air drop for an NFT or something that's targeted at me, but I don't have to worry about like my personal data getting leaked, right?

which is ultimately what we all want, right? It's like having that sovereignty over yourself, right? So do you think in the future it sounds like you think more people are going to use pseudonyms in daily life to transact, maybe have one for social, one for work? Does that make sense? And I guess also, in your view, if you've gone down this rabbit hole, how does that exist within a world where, you know, regulators want everyone KYC'd? How does that, those worlds come to get? So part of the reason I'm pseudonymous, right, is not so much.

Like, you know who I am. Anybody who meets me, for the most part, knows who I am. I'm pretty open about it. But it's more to push that understanding and that narrative of, like, what I look like and what my name is is not important. It's not, right? It's who I am as a person, how I conduct myself, right? What kind of integrity and ethics do I have?

And that's the important part here, right? Like, I've been asked to go on, like, major publications, like, both on media, on TV and like in print and they're like, oh, we'll do it if you docks yourself. And I'm just like, nope. You know, it's like because I'm trying to, I'm trying to make them understand that that doesn't matter, right? Like I have my reputation online. There are certain things that I'm willing to dox myself for, right? Like obviously if I invest in a company, I'm like, I'm doxing myself. That's fine. Because I also understand that I'm pushing the space forward, right? Like, it's, I think probably the most entertaining conversation that I had was I took a phone call with an

bank on Wall Street and I had my AR filter on and he was referring to me as G Money. So like he, I did not doc to myself to them. But like, you know, but again, it's to push that narrative to help them understand that that doesn't matter, right? Just because you don't know my name or what I look like doesn't necessarily mean that like I can't be an expert at something. Right. And like the fact of the matter is, right, like the cool thing about pseudonymity or coming up

with your own name or whatever. Like we all do it. We all have logins for for everything. and we've all been doing it our whole lives. And like that's a very personal thing, right? Like what you look like, your genetics, you can't change. What your name is is something that's passed down to you from your family that your parents choose.

But like my nickname on, you know, G Money or whatever I play Fortnite with, like that's very personal to me. That's who I am. I pick that name, right? How I display myself to the world. That's very personal. I pick that, right? So it's like we're going towards this hyper-personalization.

where yeah, like it's kind of like that you were returning the world on its head. And I think the younger you are, the more innately you understand that. Like the people that I have the most trouble convincing are people that are like my age or older. But anybody, I talk to anybody under the age of 20 and I talk to them not just about this concept, but just about NFTs in general. And they're like, that's so cool. Like how can I do that right now, right?

Yeah. It's pretty amazing to watch again, the beauty of crypto is it doesn't matter where you're located, who you are, what you look like, it's proof of work in, you know, the industry and, and, you know, show us what you do, show us your reputation. And to your point about the wallet, I think there could be a world in the future where, you know, you are proving there's no more, hey, you went to an Ivy League school, here's your degree. It's here's the work you've done. You're getting an NFT when you finish a project for a company. And that's your proof that you've yeah. And that's already, I know there are like projects that already worked on that.

segue as well. Yeah, exactly. You know, if you think about the emergence of NFTs, but also the, we're simultaneously seeing the emergence of Dow's, which is really changing the future of work. And there's so many conversations on Twitter about, okay, how do we allow workers in the crypto space to display their reputation on chain in a way that allows the different projects to leverage that information to figure out who they want to work? work with. So yeah, it's interesting to see the convergence of all of those things.

Yeah. And I know that I've seen like a couple different projects that are kind of like, it's almost like resume building on chain, right? Or like complete this task so you know you're proficient in it. And it's pretty cool, right? Because it's like it's no longer just like, here's my resume and here are my references and trust that like I'm telling the truth. Right. Because like how often have we seen where, oh, this person like lied about everything, right? And it's like if it's on chain and like the only way you can earn it, earn that NF by doing it, then that's pretty cool. Yeah, yeah, I totally agree.

What do you think is missing from an infrastructure perspective, whether it's data and analytics, valuation, appraisal, curation tools that would allow more both retail and institutional investors to participate in this asset class, this asset class being NFTs? I mean, I've been investing heavily in infrastructure for the last 10 months, 12 months. you know, we're building an entire new system from scratch. The way I see it is in 2017, you had a lot of people that made a lot of money in crypto. Like, no bank would bank them.

And there were a lot of them were really smart. So they're like, all right, we'll just build our own banking system. Right. And that's where defy comes from. And then I think now what you're seeing is like all these defy people that have now built the banking system from scratch are now like, okay, well, how do we spend it? Like, how do we integrate this in our daily lives, right? It's, I mean, it's so funny because like when I price something in USC, I'm like, oh, that's a lot. But then you price it in Eath.

I'm like, oh, I'm like, that's like free. You know, like, and it's crazy. It's so crazy how that works. But like, I just think that like we're in the process right now where we're just building all that infrastructure right now, right? The analytics, the marketplaces, the curation, all of these things. And, you know, there's going to be a lot of winners, a lot of losers. But like, ultimately where we're going to the in the right place, right? And over time, like, we're going to look at the ecosystem.

five or ten years from now and be like, wow, we accomplished a lot very quickly. So, I mean, to answer your question, sure, it's like, I think everything, we still need, I mean, look at how hard it is to use metamast still, right? You know, it's like we're not going to get to 100 million, a billion people until it becomes as seamless as like creating an account on like Facebook where it's like two clicks, right? That's the goal, right? You know, we're in like the 1997 dial-up modem phase, right? And, you know, so that means we still have a lot left to build.

But like, that doesn't mean there won't be opportunity. I think it creates alpha, right? You know, trying to explain this. I was trying to explain it to my sister who's, you know, 31. And she's like, this is so complicated. I had her download Phantom, I saw Lana, set up an account. And she's like, I can't do this.

I'm like, well, remember when we had to explain to our parents how to go on AOL, dial up, and that wasn't even the whole internet. And I think we are at that time with all this stuff. And on the infrastructure side, there is, so many tools that need to be built. It does feel like even crypto in 2017, where we didn't have order routing systems and a lot of the stuff that Castle Island has invested in

and has made it so much more accessible to just go buy crypto, and now it's the utility phase. So the investment phase infrastructure is not fully built out yet, but gotten a lot better, whereas the utility infrastructure is not really there yet for NFTs or crypto in general. Right.

Yeah, we're still so early, right? just by, I mean, how hard it is to use a metamasswell, right? It's like, we're all used to it, right? But like the first time, like, people are like, oh, like, can you help me with this? Like, I'm going to send you a test transaction. I'm like, it's the right address. Trust me. It's going through, right?

Like, I know it's going through. It feels in a lot of ways that I think constantly when all of us probably have conversations with people who haven't gotten into crypto yet or certainly having gotten NFTs, well, have I missed it? Is it too late? Is it the asset price? Bitcoin's above 50. 50,000, just too expensive.

And I think you can look at what happened between 2017 and now and say you could have gotten in at any point, like you got out and got back in. And you still caught all of these waves. And I think there's going to be so many more of those. So I think the best time for anybody is now to just start playing around with it. And yeah, as an anecdote, I usually like people are last like, oh, what are you doing? What are you working with? And I tell them NFTs and most people still have no idea.

an NFTs. Right? So that's how early we still are. Yeah. I think the good thing is that because we're seeing such an abundant amount of capital being raised in like use cases that are working and us testing out those use cases is allowing us to see the cracks in the infrastructure and figure out, okay, what is missing so that we're able to build the right infrastructure and the right tools for everyone to get involved.

So I'm excited to see and hopefully invest in some of that stuff that gets built out. The last time we met something that you were telling us about was your POAP treasure hunt that you did in Miami the week of Bitcoin 2021. Can you tell us about how you came up with that idea, why you wanted to do it, and then what's come out of it? And maybe explain what a po-op is. We start a lot of acronyms out there. We're going to have to create like a glossary.

Maybe at the end you can tell us what the best NFT website. for intro 101. Okay. You send people to and you can talk about. Okay, cool. Yeah, maybe just explain what that is. Okay, cool. So a POAP is a proof of attendance protocol, right?

And basically it's like this free to game. Think of it is like a ticket stub, right? It's like you can go there. You can claim it. It's free as long as you have like the link or the QR code. And it goes in your wallet and it's basically like a sticker or ticket stub that you keep. So for BTC Miami, I was like, hey, like, you know, I'm going out there as like, the first time after quarantine that everyone's getting together.

I'm like, I want to do something fun with, you know, my ape. So I wanted to be something very Miami focused. So I decided just a couple days before, I want to do a three-day treasure hunt. Nothing really hard.

Literally is just like, hey, guys, go here at this time, collect the Po app. And it was a three-day treasure hunt. The first day was like Miami Vice theme. The second day was Scarface theme. The third day was Pitbull theme. So very Miami vibes.

And so I hired a model to kind of stand outside. And I tweeted about it, I didn't advertise it. So like, you know, 20 or 30 minutes before, I'm like, hey guys, swing by Panther coffee. The first 100 people that come by will collect the POOP. You can scan it. You get a G money POOP. This is the first time I had ever done any kind of POOP or NFT type of thing.

And the first 20 people would get like a $5 gift certificate to kind of incentivize people to come. And I think I had about 30 people that came every day. And it was really cool. And people afterwards tweeted like that was the coolest thing I did because, you know, we were merging NFTs in the real world together, right? Whereas like, you know, you go in the real world, you go, you scan it and like you take a picture and I had people retweet it. And it was cool. About a week or two ago, I actually found out that a Dow was formed like the genesis of it was from two people that met at that POOP meetup. And a hedge fund is being formed from the two people that met at that POOP meetup.

And so it's like to me, I was like, wow, like I wasn't even thinking that. Like, I was just like, hey, what's something cool that I can do to get like the community involved? And meanwhile, you know, there ended up being like maybe five to 10 people every day that were just hanging out that were like minded, right? That didn't necessarily want to be talking about just Bitcoin at the BTC conference, but wanted to be talking about specifically about NFTs. And so it's like the power of community, right? Like I wasn't there because I was at the time I was trying to maintain more anonymity. but yeah like it's like the power of just those people coming together and what flourishes and comes from that right like that was just a chance encounter of two strangers that happened to go to collect the poap at like the same time and like look at like now they're helping to build the ecosystem right so that to me is like the beautiful part about this right is like the community building not just digitally but then how do we integrate this in the real world so that you know these connections last over time across long distances right that's so impressive. I mean, it's one thing to, like, create communities and create connections online,

but to be able to do it in person. And that's one thing I worry about is, like, so much of our lives are moving digital, but we still need this, like, in person, human interaction. So to be able to kind of bridge physical and digital, that's so exciting. Yeah. And I agree. Like, I think I very much believe in human connection and how important it is. But I do say, like, I'm very optimistic, because even in our 2D world of chat rooms and Twitter and Discord and all that, like, I formed like some really good bonds with people. I met Snowfro for the first time like a month ago.

We've been like dealing together and like had like business dealings for the last year. You know, and it's like I can tell you what he looked like for a while. I didn't know what his real name was. I didn't have his phone number. But like, you know, we had this like real community and real bond where like, and he's not the only one.

There's multiple people where like the first time I met them in person like, it was a big hug, right? Whereas like, oh, man, like, it's so nice to finally meet you. And, you know, I think as the tech gets better over time, there'll be a better way to express that connection digitally. But we're still in early days, right? Like you said, we're in the dial-up. We're in the dial-up modem phase of crypto still. So what I guess around that community that you're kind of creating and forming around G-Money, what is the end game for you? Is it a G-Money Dow that anybody who has been following you for years and, you know, wants to maybe you fractionalize some of your NFTs around that some way. Where do you want to see your presence grow in the space?

Like what I want to do long term with a token or not a token, I'm still very uncertain and I'm very much leaving, leaving it open because I still, you know, it's like it's a big commitment, right? So I want to make sure that, one, I'm ready to do it. And two, that I do it in a right way that I think is authentic to who I am. The way I've been trying to see my place in the space is that, you know, I want to move NFTs forward as far as possible, as fast as possible. Because I think that as a leader within the group, that it's my obligation to kind of help educate people, help bridge that gap, right?

Like help especially like large corporations or like celebrities that have real influence in the real world, help them understand just how important. and NFTs are to them and to their community. And so like that to me is really what I've been like focusing on a lot, right? It's just, you know, even in the investments that I've been making is like, how is this pushing the space forward, right? Is there is it needed infrastructure? That's one. But then two is like, how is this kind of like taking conventional wisdom and being like, oh, you know, right now if you mentioned NFT to anybody like in the general public, if they know what it is, they generally think it's just a picture, right?

They generally think it's JPEG, right? Right click and save. Exactly, right? But it's so much more than that, right? And so it's like understanding that and then developing these different use cases for that and helping people understand. It's like NFTs are not just JPEGs. It's literally everything in the world except for cash, right? Like everything.

So like we have to like part of its education, but then part of it is also being just a huge advocate for it. Right. And that's kind of where I see my involvement in the space and what I'm. I'm trying to do now. One thing I'd love your thoughts on. So one thing that I've been exploring personally is music NFTs. I'm really excited about it. I think that it's potentially a great way for musicians and creators in that space to fill a gap that they lost from touring, you know, over the pandemic. But one piece of pushback that I've gotten from musicians that are more introverted is I'm not good at building communities. You know, I don't like to put myself out there. I like hiding behind

my computer screen and creating music and that's all I like to do. Do you think there is a way for those types of personalities to tap into NFTs and leverage them? Or do you think it's solely for people that are extrovert that are really good at building communities? No, I think that there's a place for everyone, right? Like I think that, I mean, obviously that musician has some sort of following that likes what they do regardless of whether they're an introvert or an extrovert. And I think that's going to translate online as well, right? Like, or into NFTs as well. And I think, like, people understand that, right?

That's a very human aspect. Some people happen to be extroverted and some people happen to be introverted. And different people are attracted to different things, like, as a general public. And I don't see that as being a positive or a negative. I just, like, even when I started my G money and tweeting from that, like, I wanted to be as authentic to who I am as a human, right? I wanted people that when they made. met me in real life, they're like, he's exactly the way I thought he was, right? Like,

that's, that's been, like, I wanted to be as authentic as possible. And I think that, like, you know, whoever you are, whatever you're working on, as long as you're authentic to yourself, people will find you. People, like, you'll find your tribe, right? And people understand, right? There's like shades of gray from, like, the most extroverted to the most introverted. And it's not like there's people in the world that, like, have zero community. Like, even the biggest introverts for the most part have like a friends group you know yeah i agree i think my kind of pushback on it was if you think about the current web two models there's only one model that works to get your name out there you're playing the numbers game right but i feel like with nfts it's not necessarily

about tapping into the most people it's about tapping into the right people and nfts and crypto in general just really allows you to do that right well that's that theory of of 1,000 fanatics, right? All you need is 1,000 really, really diehard fans, and you can have a sustainable living off that, right? And that's kind of what you see in crypto. You've seen that with NFTs, with punks, and you've seen that with apes, you've seen that with cool cats, you've seen that with all these where it's like you have this diehard community and crypto in general, right? Where it just came from these diehard people that really believed in this. And then more and more people start believing in it, and it just grows bigger over time. Yeah, I totally agree. So we're

coming up on the hour. Gmoney, what's the best way for our audience to connect with you to follow you? Yeah, tell us where we can find you. Okay, cool. So I'm Gmoney, NFT on Twitter and I'm tweeting there all the time. I recently started a podcast about a month ago. We record live every Wednesday at 7 p.m. Eastern on Twitter spaces and then distribute it to all your distribution platforms afterwards. And yeah, those are probably the best two ways to get in touch with me and keep up with what I'm doing. And do you have, for anyone listening, you want to learn more about NFTs, do you recommend,

do you have a 101 you send people? I'm working on something personally, but I'd say a good place to start is the OpenC Bible, I think it's called, where that kind of gives you a good primer. And then I think if you Google some of these big projects at this point, you can find some really good primers. A lot of people have written some good stuff, informant. I've written a couple as well. but I think it's like there's Twitter threads that come out every once a while that are like read these 15 things to get caught up.

I would put notifications on for G money. This was awesome. It was so great that we got to do this in person. Thank you so much. And thank you, Hunter, for setting this up. This has been great. Yeah. Thanks so much, G.

Really appreciate having you on. And thanks for hosting it. Yeah, thanks for having me. Thanks for listening to another episode of On the Brink with Castle Island. To find out more about Castle Island, visit Castle Island.V.C. To listen to all of our podcast episodes, please go to On the Brink-Podcast.com or just click on the tab in our website. Thanks for listening.