On The Brink with Castle Island - Pat Larsen (Zenledger) on Digital Asset Tax and Compliance (EP.570)

Episode Date: October 29, 2024

Pat Larsen, the founder and CEO of Zenledger joins the show. In this episode we discuss: The latest developments in the tax and compliance categories within digital assets. How asset managers and large financial institutions are increasingly adopting digital assets. The compliance obligations of financial services firms as it relates to digital asset trading. The venture capital landscape for digital asset startups. The use cases that are currently driving adoption in the blockchain industry. To learn more about Zenledger, visit www.zenledger.io

Today on the podcast, I sat down with Pat Larson, the founder and CEO of Zen Ledger. It's always great to have Pat on the podcast. I think this is a third or fourth time. And we like to talk about the latest developments in the tax ecosystem. I think you'll enjoy this one. So without further ado, here's my conversation with Pat Larson. Matt Walsh and Nick Carter are partners at Castle Island Ventures. All of these expressed by them or the guests on this podcast are solely their opinions

and do not reflect the opinions of Castle Island Ventures. Guests and host may maintain positions in the assets discussed in this podcast. You should not treat any opinion expressed by anyone on this podcast as a specific specific inducements who make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of their personal opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only. Brought down by bad mortgage investments, Lehman, which has 25,000 employees, will be liquidated. The federal government loans American International Group, AIG, $85 billion. This is a different kind of market, and the Fed is asleep.

The federal government is stepping it to stabilize Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the two mortgage giants that have been threatened by the housing crisis. The Bank of England has pumped 75 billion more to Britain's ailing economy with a new round of course. It's good easy. You print a couple trillion dollars and all of a sudden people start to worry. So out of this worry, we have something called a Bitcoin. Bitcoin. Pat, so welcome back to the podcast.

This might be the first time you're on in the 2024 year, but it might be like your third time on the podcast. So welcome back. Thank you. Thank you. Glad to be here. And so for those who haven't heard the earlier episodes, maybe just set it up briefly on who you are and what Zen Lager does.

Yeah, sure thing. So my background went to the Air Force Academy for undergrad, was Navy, helicopter pilot with two tours, maybe at U.S. Chicago, went into iBanking and finance, and then e-commerce and startups, founded Zen Ledger in 2017. Since then we've VC backed, have raised five rounds, and we have a couple different products. Our main one is a retail tax product that helps people with their individual taxes, kind of like turbotax or cryptocurrency. And then we have a enterprise employee trading compliance suite that helps chief compliance officers keep everything in order as their employees trade equities or crypto.

You've seen a lot of cycles in your crypto journey here. Maybe talk a little bit about what the last year has been like. I'm curious what the ETF adoption specifically has done to the industry as it relates to design ledger. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think there's been more than $55 billion in capital that's come in through Bitcoin ETFs. So that's obviously put a floor in the price, but added a lot of institutional attention

and interest to Bitcoin. So that's been obviously, like, wildly net positive. Everyone can see the price action. I think the low is like $17,000 for Bitcoin. And now it's probably around $62,000 or something as we speak today. So that was pretty good returns. I think that we have not seen nearly as much retail wallet creation as we did in 2020 with NFTs and defy and all that. You don't see major sports stars all around the world getting into crypto and talking about their projects. Right. So it's not as widely distributed as then, but I think you do see regulatory movement for better for worse. The EU has meek of legislation.

The U.S. has seen some legislation back and forth and a lot of conversation with the SEC and the Department of Treasury. So it's a very different market in this run. There's obviously been a lot of gains and there's been a lot of positive movement, a lot more legitimacy to crypto. How does that overall January to December movement of total market cap effect? how people actually pay taxes in the space? Yeah, I think in the end, everyone is like a small business,

says cash in, cash out for the most part, right? So unfortunately, sometimes we've had crypto winters that hit the exact wrong time and you're left with a lot of paper gains and a lot of actualized losses as there have been like January or February surprises that leave you very well off in the previous tax year, but not very well off in the current. And so, like, as we go, like we're here in October and there seems to be upward momentum I would counsel people to either try to minimize your taxable events. So just like hold on to stuff and don't sell it and just let it appreciate or be careful

with your actual cash. So when you sell something, set aside what you think you need to pay off your capital gains, harvest your capital losses in December, tax loss harvesting. And our software can definitely help you with cash management throughout the year as well as filing your taxes in April 15th or October 15th. Yeah, that's always the worst. You always hear these horror stories about people that just got the timing wrong and maybe sold and spent the cash. But then you get into early the next year and it comes time to pay your taxes and you see this big drop in the total price of these assets.

And people always speculate that, well, people actually had to sell more than they wanted because they just didn't do tax loss harvesting or they didn't really estimate their cash needs. Yeah. It's a fire sale. If you're hitting market sell and other people are too, then the prices keep going down. You'd have to chase them. You mentioned the growth in wallets and what that's looked like in past cycles with things like NFTs. It seems to be like this cycle, it's been institutional adoption, but it's also been just this growth of stable coins. How do you see that affecting the way people are thinking about taxes, just being in and out of these stable coins? Yeah, I think one very interesting thing is you're earning income on holding your crypto, right? So staking, whether stable coins or crypto is

producing income flows, which are taxable, but it's nice because you didn't really do it. Like, it's gravy on top, right? You've been given 5% APY on your stable coins or on your crypto. And so you're seeing that much more as a minimum exchange. You're seeing very large international financial institutions with stablecoin projects. I think that's very well understood. I think even JP Morgan and all these others, even if they run the SWIFT banking system, they'd rather use a stable coin internal system for immediate settlement that never closes and is completely audible. So I think stable coins have obviously been one of those obvious product market fits for remittance, for international, large finance, but also for micro-transactions. It's very interesting that only the dollar

has been successful in Stablecoin as well, which is an interesting kind of macroeconomic point. Yeah. What's your theory there? I mean, if you look at Stablecoins, it's like 99% U.S. dollars, whereas if you look at the balance of payments, broadly speaking outside of crypto, obviously that number is closer to probably like 60% dollars. Yeah. I think that you've seen. other countries attempt to get into the global trade there. So like the Yuan, the bricks, ruble, rupee. But it's kind of like they all don't want to hold their own currency. And so you're left with a basket of currencies that no one wants. So that's tough. The euro being a contender,

but the euro consistently reeking against the dollar perhaps plays into it. I don't know enough about kind of like central banking, politics macro to like have a very firm conviction on why that is. But I think stable coin is kind of mirroring what happens. and just international settlement between financial institutions anyway. It's like primarily, like it's dominated by the dollar. Yeah. The growth of stablecoins, I would say, has been really accelerated by some of these regional cryptocurrency exchanges that can do the on and off ramps.

That's obviously a category where over the years have seen tremendous churn in terms of who the leaders are in brokerage and exchanges. How does that affect your business? And how do you see the cryptocurrency exchange landscape unfolding here over the next few years? Yeah. So it seems right now that cryptocurrency, exchanges and wallets are being founded again, you have the price action that allows you to raise capital and then go deploy that capital to start new ventures in crypto custody and exchanges.

So I think there will be perhaps some interesting innovations again. You saw some interesting business models that were different, like Robin Hood or that, hey, I can be a fast follower portfolios and traders. And that was kind of novel. You do still see the incumbents be like incredibly strong and long lasting. Like Coinbase has been around for quite a while, like Binance. the self-custy paper wallets, I guess you call them, software wallets like MetaMass seem to have taken huge market share,

and it doesn't look like it's going to be very easy to disrupt them either. So it was kind of a winner-take-all, and then we're kind of seeing if new entrants can displace them. For us, we make sure that we have kind of backward compatibility, because a lot of these exchanges do just kind of like shutter over time, and we help our clients get all their transactions out before those shutter forever. And then there's new exchanges come on. Once we see some uptake, then we make sure that we,

onboard those. Exchanges are usually pretty easy because it's usually pretty structured data. New blockchains that don't have much relation to established blockchain as Ethereum or Ceylonar or whatnot that have very different nomenclature. Those are generally more difficult to onboard. But sometimes they're pretty ephemeral. They'll be hot for six months or 12 months. And then all the volume will just collapse as well. Yeah, I'd imagine you're always dealing with these esoteric issues ranging from how staking contracts work on some of these new blockchains to air drops and how those actually materialize on the underlying blockchain. It's got to be pretty complicated staying up with the latest developments. Yeah, it is. It's hard with limited development

resources and not only sure like exactly where the ball is going to go. If this blockchain will be around in 12 or 24 months and justifies the investment, that's part of running a startup. And we're a data aggregator, which people don't really think about when you're just thinking about personal taxes, but we take in just a massive amount of range and volume of data to make things happen. One of the big things that you guys have pushed over the last probably 18 months here has been a push into the compliance space. So maybe talk a little bit about what the idea was there initially why you saw that as an attractive market opportunity and how you guys are servicing larger customers in that category. Yeah. So from day one, we kind of built an analytics engine.

It turns out it works for personal taxes. It works for audit investigation. And now it turns out it works for corporate compliance. So we have a great partner in comply, formerly comply side, and they're a provider of a traditional equities compliance suite where a chief compliance officer at a company will want to be able to onboard an employee and then watch their trading portfolio, whether that be their traditional brokerage or now today, they want to watch the crypto trading as well. So our partnership, our technology allows comply and their clients to set email alerts or limits on the amount of crypto trading because investment banks or whatever they're writing research reports, PayPal now has crypto, as does fidelity, as does all the largest trading

houses in the world. So you have to be constant for your investment manager of those conflicts and just keeping things above board. So we now help with that. And it's been pretty interesting because, again, there's all this competing regulation and legislation that's quite unclear on where it's going to go. You have EU and their Mika, which is a forcing function, on all international corporations that want to trade crypto or manage assets in the EU. And so that affects a lot of U.S. firms. The U.S. has seen SEC's actions like Wells notices on our largest crypto companies kind of shake things up.

And then the countersuits. You've seen Supreme Court Loper Bright take some of the power away from regulators. You've seen Congress and Senate pass a resolution saying, hey, SEC's SAB-B-211 accounting standard should be revoked. and then President Biden vetoing that, right? So that'll be a continuing issue that will come up. And so we're not quite sure how it'll sort out. We just are quite sure that Treasury and IRS and SEC and EU all care about crypto,

and there's going to be some struggles on how it's going to sort out. But you're going to have taxation, accounting, and compliance and regulation regardless. Yeah, and certainly just the categories of companies that are able to play in this space will change a lot if some of these market structure bills were to advance forward. Ultimately, they'll probably be one of them, but kind of live in a world where broker dealers and banks are largely absent from the spot market, which is kind of interesting because that's not how it's playing out in other jurisdictions. Yeah, it's interesting because you want to protect your current thing that's doing really well, right? And that's certainly what we saw in traditional finance over the past

five years when there was no possibility of an ETF and the alpha and beta trading volumes were kind of flowing over to crypto rather than staying in the stock market in NASDAQ. And I think people didn't like that. That was probably one factor, just trading fees. So now that you can get that with crypto now, it will be interesting to see exactly where the tug of war is now. Do you see this as a situation where Europe has actually led the market with this MECA legislation, and that could be a template for what gets adopted here in the United States? I do. They're vastly different political and economic environments, right? The way the EU is and the way U.S. Congress and regulators are fouling things out.

And I think that kind of like the capital at stake, I think that EU has successfully had a couple forcing functions with privacy and crypto, with the whole world how to deal with GDPR, whether they liked it or not. And the whole world will kind of have to deal with MECA, whether they like it or not. And that will probably clean some things up. It won't necessarily get rid of like the weird rug poles and stuff. You'll still be able to do those wherever you want. Anyone with the VPN can still get access.

But I do think it will continue to just add a bit more screw. scrutiny, perhaps investment capital dollars, you know, VC dollars will flow to the better regulated, better monitored places. And those winners will keep winning rather than everywhere being the Wild West and VC's kind of throwing up their hands and saying, well, we'll just spray and pray because we have no idea which these are rug poles. Yeah. So if you're running a large registered investment advisor in the United States, you could imagine using the software for a bunch of reasons. One would be just baseline requirements. Your regulator is telling you you have to monitor employee trading. Another would be you just want to make sure your employees are not doing things

like on the laptop during hours when they should not be doing personal trading. What do you see is the actual catalyst for these larger firms that are now onboarding with this compliance infrastructure? Yeah. So we've had a lot of early successes. We actually have clients with over 100 billion of AUM. Most of them are larger firms that trade internationally. Some are public companies. And the chief compliance officers are not adventurous by nature, right? They never want to be the first, but they also don't want to be lagging their peers. They want to be seen as compliant as the SEC requires and not in any way being risky. But they also, you know, like multiple stakeholders and large firms.

But I'd say that now that there are multiple crypto assets label as securities, there's ETFs, they're freely traded, and there's 55 billion of capital in there, that it's It's hard for a chief compliance officer to argue that this isn't like a pretty smart and standard move to do. And everyone agrees that within a year or two, there will be a more obvious and clear framework and this will just be part of the standard going forward. And since you do have so many investment advisors owning crypto or trading crypto, it just becomes like a tough conflict to have and not monitor at all.

Yeah. I mean, it's just so clear that we need a market structure bill because the SEC inventing this term crypto asset securities, which is kind of nowhere in their mandate to even define. And they're talking about something like Solana, which is clearly not a security at this point. They might have had an issue with the way they raise capital in the as of the SEC, but the functionality of that token is quite different from tokenizing a reet or something like that and putting it on a blockchain, which explicitly would be a security. So it just seems to me like we're existing in this void where you don't really know how to

classify things. And as such, that has downstream implications on how you monitor and surveil your employees. Yeah, I'd say like Coinbase counter suing and the VC backers of these large blockchains does create a coherent lobby and a strong legal team that will go after this. So that'll be interesting. Obviously, nothing will happen before the election in the US. And then it'll be very interesting to see if there's one party in charge of all three houses

or not, right, if there's divided government. But it looks right now that crypto is more of a bipartisan issue in the United States, which thankfully is not just right. But I don't think anyone pretends they can very accurately predict the near future of crypto regulation. And when you think about just the total addressable market here for your products, what are the things that you're looking towards for catalyst? I imagine regulatory developments have got to be pretty high on that list. Yeah. So 1099 DA is a new IRS tax form that's coming out. IRS hired to crypto industry, expert Seth Wilkes from Tax Bit and Raj McCurgy from Circle. So there's obviously a lot of progress towards people just kind of realizing

that they need to comply and they just want to do it easily. There are a ton of roadblocks. Crypto trading is notoriously difficult to get your hands around and that's why an assisted software and several startups to try to tackle it. But I do think that every Uber driver that does remittance is probably using crypto or stable coin. And you can use Bitcoin. There are several countries where Bitcoin's preferred currency now, right? And so there's this global movement toward this. And as that picks up, there's just more and more incentive to build the infrastructure because there's so much capital flow. And there's so many more people to help. Right. So the days of Western Union taking 30% of your remittance and then the local money lender taking another big chunk,

those are all gone. And that is net positive for the world. Yeah. I mean, if you just look at the startups in this ecosystem that are really having the best years, I would say, almost all of them would be in the stablecoin category at this point because the on-chain volumes are just through the roof in terms of payments, usually from the United States into other countries. And so it's clear that the remittance market is being disrupted, might not be broadly known outside of the crypto space. But I'd imagine that actually creates a great narrative for politicians and regulators. If you think about the strength of the dollar and the ability to just export dollars internationally at large scale. Yeah, I mean, 10 years ago, you could not actively monitor.

dollar flows, right? At least the paper money, you had no idea where they were going and what was happening. And now with Stablecoin, you can see those flows and you can make much smarter policy decisions based on it. Yeah. No, you mentioned the 1099 DA. Talk a little bit about that. What's the idea there?

Yeah. So the IRS realizes that it's very difficult for people to account for their crypto, even people who want to comply, kind of have to throw up their hands as you kind of onboard at Coinbase and then get over to MetaMask and uniswap, trade around, do some state. buying, buy some NFTs, have a couple of rug pulls, bring some back to Coinbase and try to like pay your taxes or pay for your car payment or whatever with your dollars again. It's a mess, right? So the IRS has created the 1099DA in digital assets form and draft.

It attempts to have broker dealers provide some cost basis information that theoretically would make things easier for reporting. It would work well if you only onboarded to one exchange, stayed there the entire time, all your trading there. And then your entire history from dollar one into crypto, all your income, all your capital gains or losses was there at one exchange and came back out, then it would make it feasible. But as soon as you have self-custody or as soon as you transfer assets to a centralized exchange that doesn't do 1099DA reporting, your cost basis is broken. And now your accounting method, your polling period, your cost basis, it's all out the window. So those are some of the

practical issues that the IRS is aware of. And they've talked to industry, they've gotten feedback. And it's very hard to make this convoluted digital process into a paper process that can be handled easily by anyone. So like there's not a lot of great solutions here from the paper aspect. That just sounds like a nightmare. Imagine a world where Schwab adds spot Bitcoin exposure, which probably will never happen because they're so far behind. But let's just say for the sake of argument, they add that. So they would have to ask you your cost basis, I guess, on the way in, if you want to transfer your Bitcoin over and I guess just take it. your word for it? What if you got the Bitcoin in 2010 and you don't have your cost basis?

Yeah. So in practice, it's going to be very difficult. It'll create an impetus for better reporting and some investment in reporting infrastructure at centralized exchanges. But again, they already have all their data captured really well. It's one you self-custody that everything goes out the window, just like if you took all your cash out of the bank and you ran around buying like gold coins and baseball cards and selling lemonade outside your door and there's all these different cash flows, the government has no idea, like what's happened, right? And you get to report it if you want to or not, and they get to decide if they're going to audit you or not. But there's not a lot of great visibility or clarity just because a new form is coming out. But like you can see

there's an impetus to want to get their hands around this without like a great way of doing it. One of my bigger concerns, longer term, is that we end up in this bifurcated market where you have like lit Bitcoin and lit crypto and then you have this kind of gray market, not to suggest it's shady whatsoever. You know, you have people that just want to self-custody, but if the on and off-ramps don't allow you to move your assets that are in self-custody to these centralized venues to sell to cash, that gets super problematic. And in the U.S., really, there aren't that many platforms like Coinbase, where you can move assets in from self-custody. So I hope that market structure continues to support itself. Yeah, it would almost be like this weird antiques or art market,

where things were kind of shady and people were like selling monaes or ancient swords amongst themselves, but not declaring any of these transactions of the garment. It would almost be like that. Because in the past, you've had centralized broker dealers for equities. And then for a real property, like you can see it. Like someone owns that land. Some owns that house. There's local people at every level watching these parcels of land and reporting on them even if you don't. There's people like coming in saying your property is worth this much now and your property taxes worth this much. There's this entire infrastructure to monitor all of this.

And crypto makes that easier, but also makes it harder because of self-cacity. Yeah, I mean, it's like the Sam Bankman-Fried bill there, the DCCPA, which would have kneecap DFI. It's like, what's the point of a blockchain if it's just a centralizing apparatus on top? You kind of need to preserve the ability to self-custody, which kind of leads me to your views on defy. One trend I've been seeing a lot this year is bigger financial institutions, not necessarily putting customer money into Defi yet, but standing up teams to really understand Defi and to maybe even use some prop capital in certain cases to test out how it works for things like lending protocols and AMMs. How do you think about that? Is that going to continue? Do you see a convergence there

between C-5 platforms and D-Fi protocols? There's some parallels to how regular things work. You see Fidelity have an offering. Like for a long time, ultra-hide net worth individuals could take out a loan on the equities they held and never sell their equities, never had a taxable event, just pile up their stock because they're a founder of a public company, and then just live off the cash flows of the loans they have and just live off that, right? And now Fidelity has that offering for probably very high net worth individuals, but not ultra-high-notra-high-not-worth individuals. So, DFI seems like a continued movement in that regard where you can have digital assets

and you can earn some income off it. I think the 2020 vintage of DFI was weird because it had all these weird locking mechanisms that in the end just gave you a bunch of taxable events and forced you to watch the value of the asset go down while you were locked up and couldn't do anything about it. So that stigma burned a lot of people as they kept hopping around from the token and token. I don't have a good sense today of the current defy offerings

if they have a more stable underlying there, right? Because in the end, what people want is a bond and an annuity or something. They want some security there. You don't want a lot of volatility in the underlying. That's not the point, right? And so, again, like stable coins and interest on stable coins is a better DFI than the other ones where I'm like, hey, I have this new token, I have this new blockchain,

I have this weird lockup mechanism, I have derivatives based off this token that you don't understand. Those things get way too esoteric, way too fast. Yeah, I think what you're getting at is like what is the source of yield. And in the 2020, 2021 era of DFI, a lot of that yield was new tokens. being generated and subsidizing participation on these networks. But I guess ideally what you'd want is participation on D5 protocols that actually have cash flows and those cash flows can be transmitted back to the token holders, ideally not as securities, right? Like ideally as just open source software

and that's where this starts to look more like a maybe I wouldn't say bond because it's a lot riskier than bond. But there is some way to actually comprehend what the yield ought to be on some of these platforms. Yeah. Like in the end, money is an agreement between people that stored time, energy expertise is like here in this paper and we can trade it, right? Because I don't want to give chickens to my doctor and pigs to my farmer or whatever. Like it's good messed up.

So as crypto can continue to touch kind of the real world more in the way that fiat currencies do because they're issued by a nation that has a lot of real assets, purely digital currencies that get stuck in this purely digital navel gazing where the value is because we disagree upon it in the end. Those things have all fizzled, right? Everything where you had to believe in it to make it work have fizzled Bitcoin with its strength of encryption, I guess, is the main thing. But again, it's still just like everyone believing that it's conveyance of value makes it valuable. In the end, like it doesn't touch the real world at all. And that's the difference in yield, right? Like we invented interest rates because it's an accurate reflection of future

cash flows and net present value, time value and money. We talked about stable coins and obviously there's been a lot of adoption there over the past year. Another category, which is definitely more nascent, but there has been quite a bit, at least on the press release side, has been the tokenization of real world assets, whether those be funds or different types of investment structures or objects that reside in the real world. How are you guys thinking about that space as a potential category of growth in this industry? So art in and of itself like luxury items, makes sense for crypto, like trading cards, physical trading cards and NFTs. Same and same. It's just you liking something and you hoping that other people like it in the future that you

can sell it to. And then forced scarcity on the thing. It's obvious that the real estate market really needs digital disruption. You do not need small county clerks everywhere, shuffling paper around to know who owns what parcels of land and can subdivide it or have multiple ownership stakes. It's pretty obvious and clear that if you can digitize that and just have the property taxes, whatever flow, wherever they want, that country shouldn't care about that. They should be happy to have a digital record of ownership rather than whatever the county clerk says. I think in terms of crypto mining, too, it's very clean in the accounting, energy and energy out and your stake to it. So those things, at least it's very clear what the value

proposition is. So in those ways, I think real properties are pretty good. Fractional ownership of cars and stuff seems like another thing. Like any kind of rental thing, that generates income makes a lot of sense to me as well. But again, it's like we live in a world where we need atoms and electrons. And in the end, like, the things have to touch that to deliver value to us. Because in the end, like, do you derive value from making things useful to people? Yeah. And I guess part of that utility is around where does it trade and how liquid are these markets ultimately.

So not surprising that you're seeing some of the larger markets like reeds and private credit start to get a lot of attention here because they tend to be a little bit more liquid than a baseball card. I guess. Yeah, yeah, like microloans, right? It's just so clear that people have won Nobel prizes for micro loans. And like crypto should tackle that. It should be very useful there. And then things like public records like patents, copyright, things where you want a public

database that's always able to be viewed. Like those are clear uses of blockchain. And I don't know if that's more of a garment function than with obvious utility, but not like private utility, I guess. Yeah, that is a really interesting use case. I've often said that blockchains are just large-scale motories. systems and there's really going to be this convergence where I think in 20 years we'll look back and the idea of calling yourself a blockchain or crypto fund is just kind of crazy because

every business touches blockchain in some capacity for things like audit trails and things like that. It would be like saying you're a cloud-based or an internet business now. Yeah, I mean, you saw this actually in the late 90s where you had venture funds get raised calling themselves internet funds. And now you'd just be like, obviously like everything is on the internet, right? Like every company has a website and makes internet-based payments. But I think that the notarization use case doesn't get a lot of attention because there's no token attached to it. But that's clearly a great use case for blockchains.

Maybe to stepping back a little bit, what are you the most excited about in this industry, maybe outside of what you're building over the next year? Yeah, I mean, no surprise. I'd say it's slow and steady. I'd say it's continued capital flow into crypto and VC coming back to crypto and funding good projects that build good stuff. I think we're kind of at a slight inflection point where interest rates are coming down and price action is going up.

So more good projects will start to get funded again. And I think that's just net positive for the crypto industry, but everyone in general. Yeah. Oh, that's definitely a broader venture coming back on the back of interest rates. And who knows, crypto policy in the U.S. could be a big part of what drives more venture dollars from generalist firms back into the blockchain space. So take a couple of years off after they all invested in FTX and maybe come back after Pat, where can we send people to learn more about Zen Ledger and the products that you guys have in market?

Yeah. So just go to our website, Zenledger.io. We can help you with October 15th, April 15th, tax filing. We can help you with tax less harvesting at the end of the year. We've just kind of relaunched in Canada and happy to help everyone with their taxes. Awesome. Well, thanks for coming back on. We'll have to do it again soon. All right. Thanks. Cheers. Thanks for listening to another episode of On the Brink with Castle Island. To find out more about Castle Island, visit Castle Island.V.C.

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