On The Brink with Castle Island - VÉRITÉ and Vanessa on empowering artists to be CEOs of their own world (EP.295)

Episode Date: March 10, 2022

Singer and songwriter, VÉRITÉ (Kelsey Byrne), and artist manager, Vanessa Magos have been leading the charge for artists and their teams to learn about and experiment in web3. In our third episode in the web3 music mini-series, they joined us to talk about: Artists as CEOs who bootstrap their business and put themselves in positions of power and ownership Artists being locked into the arbitrary fixed price imposed on music by the industry A future where artists have access to their fans free of paywalls, algorithms, and third parties The role music DAOs can play in restructuring artist teams You can find VERITE and Vanessa on Twitter @verite and @vanessamagos, respectively.

I had the pleasure of talking to singer and songwriter Verite and her manager, Vanessa, Magos, two people who have respectively been leading the charge for musicians and artists in Web 3. Verite and Vanessa have been independent for almost seven years, which has engendered a level of creativity and open-mindedness in them that's hard to teach and has allowed them to be receptive from early on towards experimenting in Web3. They have a very intentional and thoughtful outlook on how artists should integrate Web3 into their overall strategy, which we cover in this episode, along with how they think about streaming, categorizing Web3 music, and creating a unique experience for all fans,

valuing and pricing assets tied to Berete's art, and the role music dows currently play and should play in an artist's journey. Berete and Vanessa share many pearls of wisdom and bring a healthy level of skepticism, but also excitement to the industry that we really need to keep improving the space and onboard more and more musicians into the space. So with that, let's turn it to the conversation. Hello, everyone. Welcome back to On the Brink, and especially our third,

episode in our Web 3 music series. We have two very exciting guests joining us today, Barry Tay and her manager, Vanessa. Could you guys start off before we get into your Web 3 journey? Just tell us a little bit about yourselves. How is the Very Tay project born? How did you guys both meet and decide to work together? Kelsey, I'll let you start off. Yeah, I mean, this project was born, I guess, in like 2013-14. And it was after kind of a lifetime of creating music and writing music, playing in bands, and trying to figure out how I could somehow make this dream of like being a professional musician into a reality. And this project just clicked. And I've been an independent musician for the last seven years. And Vanessa and I have been working together

for the entirety, almost the entirety of the project since the very, very beginning. And it's been a really cool process to kind of grow as an artist and also watch Vanessa grow as a manager and have that sort of long support. But yeah, I've never done one of these with Vanessa. So I'm really excited to be on here and happy to be involved. Yeah, it's fun. I think we've been talking about this a lot as we, enter kind of this next chapter of the Verite project and kind of what this, you know,

season post-pandemic looks like. And we've been talking a lot about the dynamic that we have, you know, artist-manager relationship. And we get approached a lot by other artists and other managers just kind of saying your relationship's so unique, like, what does it look like? And what, what is the structure and, you know, what is your communication look like? And I think what makes our relationship and dynamics so unique is that we did kind of come up together and it wasn't something where both of us were established and chose to work together. We both learned everything kind of as we were going. And while the VeriTay project was just starting and Kelsey was figuring out what it looks like to perform and how do you build a live set and what's it like to work

with other people in the studio, I was doing the deep dive into what is management and what does this look like in building my own network of relationships in the music industry. And so we both came at it very, you know, I guess we were both very green when we started to be completely transparent. And, but I think what really has kept the relationship kind of strong and moving in the same direction is our work ethic. And I'd say that that is what the continuous kind of line of consistency has been. I think we like went around your question though. We we met because her producer at the time was sending around her music kind of looking for someone to come on as management. Kelsey was very adverse to it and was like, I can manage myself and do it. And so we took a meeting and initially

she was like, you know, we'll wait and see. She had already started, you know, booking her own meetings with labels and publishers. And I was just like, whatever you do, don't sign anything. And let me know what you think because we've loved to work with you and it all kind of kind of worked out. That's exactly why I wanted to get you guys on is because I think you have a very unique relationship and situation. And from my conversations with both of you, I think seeing how or hearing about how you guys have grown together over, I think you said seven years is pretty incredible and insane. And seeing you both have this exciting. and curiosity, but appropriate level of skepticism towards Web3, I think is really refreshing.

And I think the other reason I wanted to get you guys on the podcast is because I feel like there are artists who are getting excited about Web 3 doing the appropriate level of learning, starting to experiment, but their teams might be a little bit more behind. And then on the flip side, maybe there are some managers that are doing that work but are struggling to get their artists on board. And it's exciting to see that you guys have been so aligned over the entire process. I guess one thing I do want to ask before we get into some of the other questions is, so your name is Kelsey, but you go by Verite. How did you decide on Verite as your kind of stage artist name?

I think at the time I desperately needed separation from myself. And the idea of kind of pursuing this bigger vision as Kelsey didn't feel right. And I feel like Kelsey Byrne isn't a captivating state, though I do like my name. And so honestly, the name came pretty randomly. I gave myself a deadline and I just sat on blue. for a day and I knew I wanted it to be one word. And I feel like over time, if you just choose a name, you just tend to embody it if you're really firm in that decision. And for those who don't know Verit means truth in French? That was such a classic Kelsey Verite moment picking the name. She's just

like, I need to pick a name. I'll give myself till end of day and then pick it. And it doesn't matter. We're just going to go with it, which I love. Because sometimes. Sometimes you do have to just make decisions and not be too precious about something. So I love that about her. We could always change the name technically if it didn't work out. But now we're stuck. It's worked. It's worked so far and it's beautiful.

So tell us about your decision to be independent. How did you come to recognize that labels weren't meant to be a part of your journey? And is it something that you guys were both on the same page about from the get-go? Well, I feel like from my perspective, the goal was to sign to a label. And I think that was kind of how we are trained as both artists and managers to view success in the music industry. Right. It's like you get signed, you get discovered, and then you've made it. And we had kind of successfully navigated that and we were about to sign the major label deal and I was going to like quit my day job. and it fell through last minute, which was, I think, at the time, extremely devastating,

but in the aggregate, one of the best things that had ever happened to me. And instead of kind of going back to the negotiations because we realized that we wouldn't be in a position of power if we were to do that in that moment, I kind of asked for a budget And I was like, great, I will continue to fund and kind of push forward independently. And I feel like there was just enough time in releasing that second EP in starting to tour and getting more traction that I realized like this was a viable option. Like streaming revenue started to come in and I recognized that this had this was now sustainable, even though there was an intervention to get me to, quit my job waiting tables at one point. But from my perspective, once I saw that independence was a viable path, like there's no other option for me at this point. Yeah, I think a lot of people

assume that it was a decision that we made from day one. But like Kelsey said, we had that goal of signing to a label. And I think that on my end, it was taking every single meeting and meeting with all the labels and all the publishers and trying to get the best deal possible for her. And we kind of were on our way to that. And I remember sitting down with her lawyer and he was just like, wow, you really nailed it. Like the first artist you're ever like fully managing and you already have all these offers in and, you know, you crushed it. And, you know, we were already about to be, you know, celebrating when things kind of fell through and we were just having to reevaluate everything. And I think we instantly realized when that first kind of,

payment came through, we had that realization of, oh, we can do this on our own. And the second we saw that path, there was no way we were ever going to go the other way. I think the second that Kelsey as an artist felt like, oh, I can own my master's, I can have creative control, and I don't have to sit back and wait for somebody else to give me approval to do these things. It really opened up a lot of other doors for us that really led us to where we are today. So I think we're very grateful for that experience that ended up not working out. What aspects of being an independent team have been the most empowering, Vanessa, I think you touched on a couple towards the end there.

And then what's been the most challenging? Yeah. I guess from my perspective, that kind of freedom of being able to take advantage of any kind of new opportunity that comes up. And I think, you know, we'll get into Web3 a little bit more. But that is a perfect example of something that is a whole new world that wasn't available. We didn't even know about it, you know, a couple of years ago. And now it comes up.

And there are a lot of artists that are in certain deals that limit them and limit their access in the way that they can participate in the space. We're an artist like Verite, who's a completely free agent, can dive in instantly. And she doesn't have any of these barriers to entry when it comes to that. And so I'd say that has been on the positive side, I think across the board what has been why we've stayed that way. I think on the side that's been the most challenging is being independent. It can be isolating. It can be, you can feel very alone in it.

And I think that for myself as a manager and Kelsey is an artist, there are times that we wish we had a bigger team. You know, we wish we had that, you know, 30 person label team that's, you know, sitting on a call each week all trying to ideate and figure out how to best promote your next release. And for the most part, we have very carefully selected team members that we have on the Verity team and within the ecosystem that we bring on and that are incredibly supportive and amazing. But for the most part, like year round, it's just myself and Kelsey sitting down and coming up with these plans and roadmaps.

And it can feel tough at times. And so I'd say that has been on, from my perspective, and Kelsey, you tell me people differently. The hardest part is just kind of sometimes feeling like who are these other team members and where do we find this outside support to really help us bring our vision and really move the needle, I guess. Yeah. I mean, it is for me the freedom to create what I want and release it how I want and when I want to. And having no barrier in my way saying, no, you can't. can't do that. No, you can't spend that. And I think that that autonomy has been really powerful for me and Vanessa, right? Because it means that we have limitless possibilities. And I think one of the

major pitfalls of these more traditional systems is that it takes a lot of time to execute and there's a lot of red tape. And in our circumstance, there's no red tape. It's like the red tape is, you know, Vanessa and I kind of coming together and me presenting something and Vanessa adding to it or saying, I don't think so at the moment, you know, and like we definitely play off of each other in that way. But it is, independence can be an island. And, you know, we've been independent almost before, since before the tools really existed and the communities existed with these various quote unquote label services and distribution platforms. And I think that there is a network that I feel like I've never personally tapped into, which is maybe aided by the fact that, you know, I'm pretty antisocial in general.

But I do feel like now kind of pushing forward and going through this whole process coming out the other end, it's really surreal to start to find a community of people who understand and think like you kind of in the Web 3 ecosystem. But that's definitely been a challenge for me. Even though it must have been extremely challenging, the level of awareness and wisdom that you probably gained in the process of being independent is probably unparalleled to anyone who is signed to a label

and just doesn't understand so many different aspects of the, music business and the music industry because it's kind of obfuscated away from them. So that's, I wonder if that gives you a leg up in certain instances. For sure. I feel like my main feeling is that nobody really knows what they're doing, right? We're all just trying to push forward in the best way that we can. And one of the reasons why Vanessa and I have been at this for long and as successful as we've been is like we get knocked down and we just get right back up and we're able to pivot really quickly and just come up with a new idea and take a new path. And sometimes we're right on and kind of immediately successful. And other times we have to pivot.

But I do think it's like the ability to pivot quickly without all of the red tape, it kind of allows us to. to continue to push forward. So you started your journey as Verite when streaming started becoming more widely adopted. And Vanessa, I think one thing you said was you realize the power of being independent when that first check hit. So you guys made it work for you, which is not something you hear often with regards to streaming platforms. And of course, that eventually turned sour.

but maybe talk a little bit about that and how you made it work in your favor. Yeah, I mean, I think initially we did not expect to make any income or any significant income from streaming. You know, we were focused on other things. And so we kind of viewed, you know, the Spotify's of the world as is similar to SoundCloud. Honestly, we were like, yeah, they make something that everyone had said. They pay nothing. So don't focus on it.

And I think for us, like when everything was kind of having, happening, we weren't paying attention to it. And when the first payment came through, it was significant enough for us to realize, oh, we actually can do this on our own. And I, you know, to be transparent, she owns her master. So that makes a significant difference in the payout, obviously. And I think that's why there's a lot of differentiating, different views on it. But I think from our perspective, we saw that and we're like, oh, okay, this is another income stream. But we also realized that that couldn't be the only one. And so we started to kind of look at the entire ecosystem of Veritaine and be like, okay, we have touring, we have streaming, we have merchandise sales,

and then we have all these other things like sync income and all these, you know, other things that we would explore. And so it was always kind of making sure that we had different opportunities because we couldn't just rely on one. But in general, the conception that streaming doesn't pay anything, Like for us, we were like, well, this actually is paying the bills. So it was something that we did feel supported us as independent artists to begin with. Now let's maybe pivot a little bit and talk about your entry into Web3. And I think the fact that you were independent, as you guys mentioned, definitely set you up well to experiment in the way that you have. But before we get into kind of the more formal experiments that you've done, maybe talk a little bit

bit about your first interaction with NFTs and then what made it click for you from a music NFT perspective? To be transparent, like when COVID hit, I was pretty terrified, not just of like, you know, the pandemic, but I just really clearly saw that all of the tools and strategies that Vanessa and I had kind of employed to build the career. and to build our world were no longer viable paths forward due to a lot of reasons. I felt like I wasn't able to reach my audience and kind of my album cycle ending early, you know, with kind of canceling that tour right in the middle. And like, it was very daunting.

And so I feel like the majority of 2020 was spent recognizing. recognizing, okay, we have to pivot, but I don't know to where. And so it felt like, you know, I started a podcast. I started producing. I was contemplating getting into film scoring. I made a virtual world for fans to like participate in this little eight bit video game for the release of my EP New Limbs. And so I feel like from my perspective, we were just kind of throwing things at the wall, trying to figure out, okay, cool, what is the next thing? because all I'm seeing in terms of, you know, these DSP, Spotify, Apple Music, Instagram, TikTok, it's like all I'm seeing are gates and all I'm seeing are stop signs and red lights.

And that kind of led me into Web 3 through the podcast where I was introduced to RAC, who I had on the podcast, and we got into a debate on the value of music. And then I talked to Justin Blow, who came on the podcast. And I really, I wasn't sure exactly what this is, this whole thing was, but I got enough exposure to become curious about it. And I think for me, what really clicked was in my conversation with RAC, where, you know, I really believe that music should be free for everyone to experience, which can be a very controversial take.

but we're locked into the fixed pricing that the music industry kind of puts us in, which is 0.004 cents on average per stream. And there's no opportunity for someone to pay more for that experience if they want to. And so my approach kind of entering this world is, all right, well, what are these tiers of value above free that I can just play with? and what are the applications and what are the tools? And I really had no idea, but I was pretty determined to see. And early on, we got a lot of support and excitement and enthusiasm for kind of entering into the Web3 space.

And it kind of pushed us in further. I think one thing that you mentioned was before you spoke to RAC and Blow, you were doing all of these things trying to figure out what a model, a sustainable financial model looks like digitally. And none of those things, at least from what it sounded like, allowed you to directly make money from your music, whereas music NFTs allow you to monetize your music directly. And I think that's such a powerful thing. So when you started releasing music NFTs, there definitely wasn't as much hype and excitement as there is now. How did you approach your first drop in terms of marketing it and pricing it?

And do you have more of a process now or is every drop pretty unique for you guys? I feel like the first drop I called Vanessa and I had just gotten the invite to Zora because we had talked to Mikhail and he had kind of hooked us up. And I called her and I was like, I think we should do it. I'm doing it tomorrow. And I spent all night making a really simple moving visual. And my idea was I was going to release the first song that I had ever released for the Verite project as my first NFT. And I just, I learned by doing.

And so I just wanted to get something out there. so that I could have the experience so that I could learn firsthand what all of this was about. And it wound up being a really great experience. And Vanessa was like, all right, cool, let's do it. Let's try it. I'm interested, Vanessa, from your perspective. A lot of ideas like that. And I just kind of execute.

And sometimes Vanessa's like, let's slow down. Well, it's so funny because I'll never forget Kelsey calling me after that. RIC conversation and kind of just word vomiting a bunch of things. And she was like, I don't really understand all of it, but there's this and there's this. And he mentioned this word. And she was like, I just think that it's important. And so, you know, from my end as a manager, it's like, okay, anytime there's something that I don't know, I'm like, great, I need to go learn it so that I can, you know, bring that value back to my client. And so I was like, okay, I'll dig in on my end. And so We both, you know, immediately started researching all these things.

And in December, a friend had invited me to Clubhouse. And I immediately was like, Kelsey, this is the dream platform for you. You love speaking. You hate video. And then, you know, she dove into that. And I'd say that was kind of my introduction into really educating myself was just hours and hours and hours of listening and having conversations with different people who were also entering the space for the first time.

And so when Kelsey was like, I think I should just go for it and drop the first one, I was a little bit hesitant just because, again, it was so new. We were still wrapping our heads around, you know, how it actually works and what it means. And, you know, we had just started to see some other people do it, but no one that was like an artist like Veritas, a lot of, you know, male EDM artists and a lot of visual artists. And so, but we kind of talked about it quickly and I was just like, okay, what's worst case scenario? No one buys it. Okay, great.

We're fine. You know, so let's just try it. And so I think with all of those things, it's always kind of zooming out and seeing, you know, how this affects the product as a whole. And I think we both are like, this is a fun experiment that we can do. And Kelsey trusted her gut in terms of just going with it quickly, which was really smart because that kind of. her as a leader in just kind of stepping out and being like, I'm going to take a risk and try this new thing that everyone else is talking about, but a lot of artists are afraid to do. And I think it really was the start of the conversation that we're continuing to have today.

There's so much power in being a first mover and paving the way in something that's really uncertain. So that's, I think that was such an amazing thing to do at that point in time. Walk us through some of the experiments that you've carried out. How do you categorize the music NFTs that you've released? And I'd also love to get your take on how you segment your fan base and make sure you're optimizing for what a specific segment wants and is looking for. and how you make sure that they're not disappointed? I think that I separate the categories of music NFTs and experiments that I've done when I look back on the last year into three categories.

The first is one of ones, right? High value, the idea that we're creating digital scarcity. all of my one of ones have sold for you know anywhere from one to 11 eth right so it's it's a much higher value proposition and the majority of the people who have collected those are very crypto-native very web 3 native they've been here for a long time and I really like one of ones I think you know I'm a big fan of catalog the idea that like we're creating um the history of an artist through one of one NFTs i think is really powerful um second is experiential NFTs the idea that having a certain nfti can unlock an iRL experience and or owning something physical can where the NFT is attached to that

physical garment can also unlock a digital experience and what is the bridge back and forth between physical and digital, which we just did with the sale of a jacket that I wore in the He's Not You music video where the music video actually lives in an NFT embedded in a chip inside the jacket. And another example of that is guest book, which was built for my last tour, where essentially we created something where fans can claim NFTs at the show and leave me a message, but, you know, kind of bridging those gaps. And then the third is fractionalized ownership, which I view as like either additions, you know, many of one thing, or fractionalized ownership where you bring in royalties into the equation, which we just did that with,

he's not you, the song, with Royal. We were the song. We were the second artist to drop there and we sold 39% of the royalties to fans and that was the first experiment where I had any fan participation outside of the very small segment that was already crypto-native. And so I don't like to segment my fan base. I think I just recognize that who wants to participate in what and so it's really important to me that I don't get access to myself or my art to fans, but I'm really interested in creating a unique experience for everyone who wants to participate on every different tier of experience that I can create for them. And so, you know, my discord now that I did the He's Not You

Drop is a real mix of characters. But that being said, it's really crazy to watch everybody conform to the culture that I create there, which is one that we're all here. We're all on the ground together. And so it's been really cool to watch the world's merge, but I wouldn't say that fans are going over to kind of collecting NFTs just yet. It is cool that you've created a community of fans in your Discord at different levels of their web three journey that can hopefully learn from each other. Have you seen that actually happen in the discord where there is discourse between people that are more web three native and people that are newer to music NFTs interacting with each other? Yeah. And it's really nice to see. And I have some

rules around where anything web three or NFTs are allowed to be discussed in the Discord because it's not a Web 3 Discord, right? It's a fan Discord first. But that being said, fans who want to get involved, I feel like, and Vanessa and I talk about this a lot, I don't think that it's appropriate for artists to be educating their fans about crypto and about NFTs. I can provide the information, but I think it's very important that fans do their own research and educate themselves so that they feel empowered in their decisions as they enter into a new landscape. And I am willing to have a slower onboarding process of my fan base to allow that to happen naturally. But fans talking to people who are more crypto-native in our NFT chat, it's really nice.

And I monitor it. And it's just really people helping each other out, giving really sound advice, telling people, now you can't click on Discord links, like kind of helping people with security. And so I think on all levels, it's like you attract the fans who want to exist in your world. And I'm really lucky to have the kindest and best fans. And then people who've populated from Web 3 are also just like really kind and genuine. And you've also been really intentional about creating the best kind of experience for them. I think either you said this on another podcast or we talked about this in the past, was, you know, for those who are newer to the space, establishing some kind of floor by attaching an

experience to the NFT or a physical item to the NFT. And I think one way you did that recently was with your Royal Drop. Can you talk a little bit about what you did there? Yeah. So I think for me, the floor of value is extremely important, especially when you're dealing with, you know, speculative assets. tying royalties to it. And so I was really clear. I had a whole town hall on my discord where I was like, do not expect money from royalties. Like it's going to be a very small amount. You need to be doing this because you want to have the sentimental experience of owning a song you love. And then we made signed, He's Not You cassette tapes that come with a voice memo from myself on those cassette tapes. So the idea is you're getting an experience, you're getting a physical good, and then you're getting an

And so if the value of that NFT goes to zero or for some reason NFTs disappear tomorrow, you still got a meaningful experience and something that you can keep. And I think that that's really the center of my consideration when dealing with fans is that I'm really conscious of not wanting to build up someone's expectations and then have them be disappointed. And so we definitely just want to deliver an experience that. that is going to be extremely meaningful every time we have one of these drops. Vanessa, tell us a little bit about how the role of a manager changes in this hybrid Web 2, Web 3 model.

And do you have any advice for what managers of artists who are entering the industry or haven't yet entered, what should they be doing? Yeah, it's interesting. I think a lot of the managers and artists that have approached me, you know, to be like, you know, can I pick your brain or I'm curious about this space? I don't know where to start. I think a lot of it is kind of learning by doing. And so I think to start, it's just start getting involved, you know, follow music, people in the space on Twitter, listen to Twitter spaces. there's plenty of articles that were not around a year and a half ago that are now, there's endless amounts of articles to read in use cases and different things to kind of

do proper research on that I don't feel like existed a couple years ago. And so I'd say that's the start. But for me, I view it no differently than I did when, you know, I realized the importance of Spotify and DSP relationships. You know, when that became a thing, I was like, okay, my next goal as a manager is to build as many relationships at all these distribution companies to learn, you know, how can we best market, you know, her music in this new, in this new space. And same thing when like Instagram is constantly rolling out different features. TikTok became a thing. You're always as a manager

having to adapt and learn the new thing and make sure that you're on top of it so that you can kind of bring that value back to your client and strategize within, you know, whatever they're doing at that given time. And so at the beginning, I viewed Web 3 no differently. I looked at it as something that I needed to really learn about and kind of build my own relationships in so that I can continue to bring value and grow in that space as well. And Kelsey and I talk a lot about Web 3 is just kind of like a toolkit

and she has been presenting it that way to a lot of her fans and I think that's a really helpful way to look at it. So I think that that's kind of been my. approach and in terms of how it's changed things I'd say that you know the majority of my time is now spent in this space and really like trying to understand what the future of it looks like and for me personally it really reinvigorated my love for for music and working with artists because I feel like a lot of artists in their teens were just hitting this wall of feeling like they couldn't break through because of the algorithm or because, you know, a lot of these systems

that used to work no longer work and, you know, they're all very antiquated and no longer relevant. And so when just all these conversations about what Web3 could mean for the future of artists and fans and music, it just really excited me and has given me a lot of hope for allowing other artists to kind of see this opportunity. And I think that the idea of ownership and the idea of understanding who your audience is, audience is and really being able to for the first time for artists to own those audiences and to be able to know who their top fans are. You know, we don't really have that information right now. And so it's all of that is really exciting to me. And I think that the future, the potential of

the future where artists have access to their fans that are, you know, free of paywalls and algorithms and third parties is, is really exciting to me. And again, we're in a very experimental phase of all of this, as we all know. And we're going to see a lot of things change over the next couple of years. And a lot of these ideas will fail and a lot of them will succeed. But I'm just really excited to be a part of it and to get to see the potential of what this could mean for a lot of artists. And my hope for myself, and I know for Kelsey as well as to hopefully be an example and to teach other artists and their teams, you know, how they can do this themselves. I've tuned into many Twitter spaces, read all the articles, and the way that you've built in public is such an amazing resource for people that are entering the space.

And to your point about artists being able to form connections and bonds with fans as a fan, as a Verity fan, as a fan of so many other musicians, that are entering Web 3, that has been one of the most exciting things for me is to be able to build a relationship by being a patron. One thing I want to talk about is artist Dow's or music Dow's. Kelsey, you have a unique point of view on this, on Dow's where NFTs or social tokens give fans some governance rights. How do you think about that? And how do you think about co-creation and creating a more interactive experience for fans?

I think that it just needs to be done with a lot of care and consideration. And so I'm not necessarily against music dows, and I'm definitely not against the idea that owning one of my NFDAs. will kind of get you access into the ecosystem and into the world. I think and into unique experiences, but I do think that governance needs to be really explicitly stated because I do think when it comes to investing in something, right, then your decision making is kind of, you have to answer to. to your shareholders. And I think that what are we then just recreating

some of the issues that we had, that we currently have in the major label system and in these traditional systems where artists are dependent on investment and they are kind of then have to answer to those who invested in them. And I'm much more of a fan of artists bootstrapping their own capital, hustling to sell funds, to put themselves in positions of power as they kind of move forward and maintain full ownership

and then present people with experiences that don't necessarily allow them to govern what they do. But again, all of these, each individual DAO and each individual agreement winds up being unique. But I do think that it's something that artists should go into just knowing exactly what they are getting into. Another thing that I think is unique about what I've heard you say is you're very thoughtful and methodical about valuing your work and pricing your work. How did you, well, I guess first of all, do you have a framework that you used or came up with in making those decisions? if so, I guess what's that framework or what's your thought process? So initially, I had no framework and I set no reserves.

And I think that was really powerful because if we're utilizing the tools of Web 3 to let the marketplace decide the value of music and the value of art, then we need to let the marketplace decide without setting some sort of arbitrary reserve. And each bid and each, you know, collector who has put in any offer is just a data point. And so for the first three NFTs that I did, there were no reserves. I just put them up and I watched the bids come in. And when I got a bid that felt meaningful enough that needed to be respected, I would just set a time and say, hey, in 48 hours, I'm going to pick.

the highest bid. And I think that that really allowed me to kind of see how the marketplace valued my work and gave me a framework to price in the future. And then for by now, where I auctioned off a percentage of the master royalty share in perpetuity, I got to do both of those things. So from a high level, I set the valuation at 100% for a million dollars because that as somebody who owns all of my masters, that's what felt good to me that I could sleep at night. But I allowed people to participate in any degree that they wanted to. So I wound up selling 2.3% for, you know, 11th, which at the time was $23,000. So the idea that on the large scale, you can set whatever valuation, but then allow people to financially

participate in whatever way feels meaningful for them. I think is good. And now I can just kind of slowly but surely raise, not raise the prices, but you know, I get to like, I know what my work is worth in this world and really kind of continuing to experiment with what is the right reserve price is a reserve price right here.

And trying to keep things exclusive and figure out, okay, what experiences can we add? What does this mean in the aggregate? One thing I thought of recently was all of a sudden you're raising money or earning money in a volatile asset, which is ETH, right? And how do you think about, I guess, treasury management for Verite? do you liquidate immediately or do you maintain some amount of ETH in ETH? And have you ever thought about putting it to work and deploying idle assets in DFI? Is that something that you guys have thought about at all?

Sort of. I made a decision when I started personally to keep everything in ETH for a year and then make decision, which at the time felt correct, even though there's part of me that wishes I had like liquidated one sale that happened at the top. But, you know, hindsight's a bitch. And I do feel like now I have a bit more knowledge and education around how to navigate here. But I am taking it slow and I really do believe in the future of cryptocurrency. So I'm not necessarily in a position where I'm in a rush to liquidate. And I do think that I can kind of hold for a while. But I do need to get more education on defy and how to make finances work for me. I think I come from a blue color mentality

and a scarcity mentality. And so when it comes to all of this, I tend to kind of hold. And I'm trying to slowly but surely unwind that conditioning. I wonder if there is a role that music dows comprised of people with different skill sets in the crypto space can play a role in that. And going back to what you guys were talking about in the beginning where being independent has these downsides where you feel like you're on an island and there are certain aspects of support that you're not getting by being independent and by not. being signed to a label. I guess the question is, do you think that there's a role that music

Dow's can play in supporting independent artists in this way and maybe filling some of those gaps that offers upside to both parties, but at the same time allows artists and their teams to maintain creative control and ownership? Yeah, I think there absolutely is a space for that. And I think that in the same way that you see artist teams kind of evolve over the years, I feel like that we're going to see a lot of different structures change because there are going to be certain cases where an artist team may feel like, oh, we can't provide this service or we don't have the knowledge for this. In the same way that we bring on business managers and lawyers and agents and publicists, everyone has their own role and expertise. And it, it's a disadvantage for one person to try and

do everything. And so I absolutely think that there's an opportunity there and a space for there to be additional team members, if it makes sense given each artist, you know. But I think we're going to see a lot of that. And I also think we're going to see artists start to want to restructure what their teams look like. And as they start to see different needs kind of come in and other kind of traditional structures make less sense. Well, and And I feel like Vanessa and I have this conversation, I mean, literally daily at this point of, you know, this last year we've been like 3,000 percent independent. We're literally distributing on TuneCour, right? And so this idea of what does the third Veritas record team look like and not finding in the traditional landscapes a distribution strategy that really makes sense for where we're at?

And so I feel like this kind of goes back to the music Dow question. I do think that so long as an artist is going into it with that kind of business mentality, recognizing that they are the center, they are the CEO. They are the ones making the decisions. But the idea that if there is a music Dow where there are people with varied skill sets who are all contributing to the whole and then taking a percentage for the contributions that they're making, I do think that that could be the next generation of kind of how artist teams are formed because it is increasingly challenging to kind of find partners where you feel like

they're adding the correct value for the right percentage, for the correct investment, etc. So it's very delicate. I'm excited to see experimentation on that front for sure. I also love, you've mentioned it multiple times throughout this podcast, but this framework of an artist as the CEO of their own startup, of their own empire, of their own brand, which I think is a really refreshing way for artists to look at what they're building. One kind of broad question is the value that is created by the music. music industry as a whole and especially the value that flows back to artists is very low, maybe compared to other verticals and entertainment.

Do you think that Web3 has the potential to grow the pie of financial value that the industry can offer creators? Or do you think it's simply going to redistribute the value from intermediaries to creators? I'm sure Kelsey has a different perspective on this from the artist's perspective. But I think that that is the big question. And I think that is everyone, you know, everyone's so excited about the space, but we can't just, you know, hype up something that doesn't have long term, like a long-term plan, you know?

And so I think everyone's talking about what is this bridge and what are the next steps here. And I think what's hard is that if we're not relying on. on the traditional revenue sources, so merch and tickets, all of that. It's how do we make the digital collectibles or this digital space and the opportunities that come with it more valuable than everything else? Because from a fan perspective,

I think that is the biggest issue that everyone's running into right now is they're providing opportunities for the artists and making the artist experience better, but they're kind of missing the point of the fans are the ones that are going to guide everyone. And so you can create the most incredible thing ever. But if the fans don't show up, what's the point? And so I think like I do see a path towards it kind of growing the pie,

but I think that no one has really figured out how we're going to bring all the fans over that are not ready to jump into the space. And so I think we have to look at things like what new data can we get with Web 3, that tech that's not possible in Web 2 and like what are the things that are going to be those like aha moments that make a fan be like oh yeah I'm going to do this or from an artist's perspective

they're going to be able to gather new information that they never could before and then how do we make it a long term thing that isn't a one-off because I think we've seen success with a lot of these one-off things but we're not seeing what the long-term opportunities are and so I think there's a lot to still figure out there but I do think that if we do figure it out, yes, I believe that the pie can be grown.

But in the short term, it feels very focused on these moments versus these long-term plans in value structures. Vanessa and I are the equal amount excited and apprehensive, I feel like, about our optimism about Web3, I think. And so I don't think that all of this is really going to revolutionize the music industry. I think that music is free because people don't want to pay for it. And that's just a fact that we have to accept that the democratization of the creation of music in a professional way. And the fact that anybody can then distribute it, like it's going to increase the pie, but the marketplace is oversaturated. There are 60,000 songs plus coming out a day.

It's too much for people to consume. And so I don't think necessarily that, you know, Web 3 is going to come and fix that issue. And honestly, once the tech is ubiquitous and everybody can use it, we're going to face the same oversaturation issues that we're facing now. The only difference is that if artists, that's why all of my focus is so centered. on like the artist needs to be the center, the artist needs to be empowered to build their own world

with a constellation of revenue streams, utilizing all of the tools at their disposal, which is going to be ticket sales, which is going to be streaming, which is going to be social media, sync, et cetera. But now we can add one-of-one collectibles, experiential collectibles, royalty fractionalization, right? And so I view all of this as just adding to tools to the toolbox. And then it's kind of on the artist, A, to assemble a team that's going to add value and kind of exist at the helm of this. And I think that those are the artists in the future that we're going to see kind of be the most successful. Love the healthy level of skepticism. And for what it's worth, I agree. I think we have a lot more work to do to grow the pie, I think.

at least for the foreseeable future, there will need to be a hybrid Web 2, Web 3 model. So what's next for Verite? What can we expect from you? What should we be on the lookout for? I mean, there's going to be a third record. I'm working on finishing the record now. And I feel like this last year has been,

a lot of siloed experiments and now we can take everything that we've learned and figure out how to integrate it into an entire world, into an entire album. And what are all of the experiences, what are all of the value propositions that we can kind of create from one body of work and create like a much bigger world around it? I'm so excited for that. I'm always, always looking for for new music from you and new experiments from you. Thank you guys so much for coming on the show. This has been such an enlightening conversation. I love the way you guys approach this industry. You bring so much intentionality and thoughtfulness that I think a lot of people can learn from. It's been amazing to learn from you. And I'm so excited to see you guys grow and continue.

you to onboard so many more people into this space. So thank you. Thank you so much for having us. Honestly, it's been such a fun part of this whole journey into this new space is meeting incredible people who are like-minded. And I think that's been so refreshing for Kelsey and I to feel like we've found our people that think similarly and have similar work ethic and are excited to step out and take risks into an entirely new space and hope for the best, you know. And so, yeah, it's so great to do this. And thank you again for having us. All right. We will definitely have to have you guys on soon. I guess one last thing is what's the best way for listeners and fans to connect with you guys? I think I'd say, I mean, Verete is at Verite

on all social platforms. And I guess the only place I really interact is on Twitter. So at Vanessa Magos, but just follow Verite and you'll find me. Yeah, thank you so much for having us.