On The Brink with Castle Island - Weekly Roundup 01/29/21 (Reflections on the debate, the Robinhood affair, Ray Dalio warms to Bitcoin) (EP.172)

Episode Date: January 29, 2021

Nic and Matt return for another week of news and deals. In this episode:  Our view on the Robinhood/Gamestop affair Why 'rebuilding the financial system from scratch' is a good idea, actually Could the brokerages deplatform Bitcoin financial products too? Will FTX be the last Gamestop market standing? Nic's reflections on the Mike Green / Grant Williams debate We correct the record on certain claims made in the debate We settle the question of inflation in the 40s We declare a truce between bitcoiners and goldbugs Another ETF filing Ray Dalio starts to come around on Bitcoin Content mentioned:  The Grant Williams Podcast, Both Sides of the Coin: A Civilized Bitcoin Debate OTB Episode, What Keeps Stablecoins Stable OTB Episode, The Market Effects of Stablecoin Issuance Ray Dalio, What I Think of Bitcoin Sponsor notes: Withum is a forward-thinking, technology-driven advisory and accounting firm committed to helping our clients be more profitable, efficient and productive in today's complex business environment. Our Digital Currency group is proud to partner with members of the cryptocurrency community. Get to know us at withum.com/crypto.

This episode is brought to you by Witham. Witham is a nationally ranked public accounting firm providing advisory tax and audit services to businesses on a local and global scale. More on Witham and their fast-growing crypto asset practice later in the episode. Brought down by bad mortgage investments, Lehman, which has 25,000 employees, will be liquidated. The federal government loans American International Group, AIG, $85 billion. This is a different kind of market, and the Fed is asleep. The federal government is stepping it to stabilize Fannie Mae and Freddie.

Mac, the two mortgage giants that have been threatened by the housing crisis. The Bank of England has pumped 75 billion pounds more into Britain's ailing economy with a new round of quantitative easing. You print a couple trillion dollars and all of a sudden people start to worry. So out of this worry, we have something called the Bitcoin. Welcome to On the Brink. I'm Matt Walsh. And I'm Nick Carter. And if there are any podcast experts out there on audio interference, you get in touch.

Yeah, hit us up because there's radio which bleeds through. So let us know what the cause is. We've been great to figure this out. Yeah, we've got to figure this out. Well, I usually say what a week, but seriously, what a week? Did Robin Hood just shut down their users from trading on their platform? Yeah, I guess security tokens actually kind of make sense now. Is that defensible? Is that fair to say? I mean, is there any world in which this is an acceptable situation where Robin Hood just shuts down the ability to trade for retail. users. It just cuts off one side of the trade. It's an order book with just one side. Yeah, this is one of the more egregious D platformings, I think, because come on, let the market clear. And who knows how this happened? I mean, there's all sorts of rumors on Twitter. You don't want to hop to any conclusions. Maybe there's a regulator that told them, but obviously people are going to jump to the worst possible scandalous outcomes here of their retail order flow partner, Citadel being on the other side of this trade or bailing out Melvin Capital and therefore

asking them shut down GameStop. So, you know, I'm sure that's not what happened, but who knows, did the SEC call them? Did their investors call them? Why did they do this? Yeah, it's really disappointing. And yeah, I guess that's why we're building an alternative financial infrastructure. You know, my take on all this is that the folks out there like Matt Levine who constantly ridiculed people in the crypto industry for rebuilding the financial, industry from scratch, this is a strong repudiation of that attitude, that it's never worth rebuilding things from scratch on a new foundation. It's obvious that the existing foundation is rotten to the core, and we have this enormous level of complexity in terms of how securities are settled and cleared,

which enables weird situations to end up where there are more chairs being sold short that actually exist. That's a ridiculous situation. I guess that was part of the reason overstock created their T-0 platform, but it's clear now that there's a reason, there's a justification to build an alternative security settlement infrastructure in addition to financial infrastructure. So to me, there's no question of my mind now that security tokens are a completely valid thing to do. Yeah. Anyone who's looking at this and saying that Robin Hood traders are just in the casino, know and that they this behavior should stop you're totally missing the plot this is a cultural turning point in this country this is essentially a nonviolent protest which we've seen here over the

past week of people just being fed up with the system and if they can do it to game stop and amc they can do it to gbdc too so there's if bitcoin is is seen to be too disruptive maybe they'll come from the financial they'll come for the financial bitcoin products too It's a really interesting time to live in because we have the ability to create non-sovereign censorship money. And we're really on the cusp of being able to create non-sovereign censorship-resistant decentralized internet infrastructure. And, you know, there's never been a better time for that. And the fact that Discord is shutting down the Wall Street Bats instance,

it's just more vindication for the people that are building decentralized internet architect. is right now. And I haven't seen any strong new developments there, but I'm sure there's a ton of entrepreneurs working on it. And not only entrepreneurs that are already working on it, but how many talented people are seeing these de-platformings and just saying, well, you know, I want to go build something. I want my work to be meaningful and I'm going to enter this industry. That's what's happening right now. And it's really bipartisan issue. I mean, we see Congress people on both sides of the aisle talking about the Robin Hood issue and shutting down the retail traders. So, you know, deplatforming censorship is not a partisan issue at this point.

No, you have Ted Cruz and AOC agreeing right now on Twitter, which is rare. I kind of want to buy some GameStop shares just for the sake of it to be part of this historical event, but I honestly don't know where I can buy them now. Well, you can't buy them on Robin Hood, that's for sure. It would be interesting if in a week's time, the old. only entity that's connected to the GameStop markets on NICES, Alameda research buying GameStop on behalf of the clients that are buying the perpetual swap. Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised at all. I wouldn't be surprised. But talk about just shooting yourself in the foot in terms of enterprise

value. I mean, who is taking this company public right now? Are you kidding me? And Google deleted all their one-star reviews. So not your platform, not your reviews as well. Not good. Well, it was a day with the Robin Hood situation, you had a contentious interview slash debate, I guess, I would call it. On the Grant Williams podcast, you went toe to toe with Mike Green of Logica funds. Dare I say, you did a great job. Thank you. Yeah, I was quite overwhelmed by the reaction to that. Honestly, nothing I've ever done has received that reaction. I got literally hundreds of DMs and emails from people thanking me for having done that. So it was very humbling. and really cool.

So thank you, everyone. Well, we're really lucky as a community to have you as our mouthpiece. You know, A, because you're really smart, but B, because you were able to keep your cool. I think my Irish would have gotten the best of me in some of those situations. He was coming at you. Yeah, I will all admit that when he compared Bitcoin to fentanyl and implied that I was a criminal just because I used Bitcoin,

my blood pressure rose a little bit. but I don't know I felt that I would be most persuasive if I stayed relaxed and didn't take the bait basically Yeah I mean the prediction that you were about To become a political dissident I think that was a little aggressive

But that was just me Yeah I mean it's not that often in a debate Where your opponent kind of Slightly wishes that you were in jail Because of the position that you hold In the debate But you know I wanted to stick to the issues

really and the issue in my view is look it's a historical norm to have a commodity standard and to not have a fiat standard the fiat standard is an aberration historically you know it's only 50 out of the last 300 years that we've had it so all I'm suggesting is let's revert to the mean to a non-pure fiat standard and let's eliminate monetary discretion and clearly people are opting for this alternative monetary rule. So how can you object to free market spontaneous movement? It's a non-coercive, it's non-coercive, right? I mean, that's, I think you made the great point that this is, we're not coercing anyone to become a part of this. But a debate like that is actually a debate about values. It's not really a factive debate at the end of the day. So, you know, we were never going to

find a middle ground there because our values are just so fundamentally different. But I think it was still elucidating. I feel like many people learned a lot over the course of the debate. I would highly recommend listening to it. I think people should check it out. The Grant Williams podcast. Yeah, and much credit to Grant. I mean, Grant's clearly not a fan of Bitcoin, but I think he was a very, very fair host. And I'm a huge fan of his show as a side note. There are a few items that I want to correct the record on because there were certain claims made in the debate that were false. So, well, the, inflation in the 1940s, you were just objectively correct about that. Yeah. So my point was that there

is monetary repression in the 1940s with low interest rates and high inflation. Average inflation was 5.6 in the 1940s and it spiked up to 20% in some months. So I'm going to go ahead and take the dub there because that is what I would consider high inflation. Can you imagine if inflation average 5.6% over the next decade? Would you consider that high or low? You consider that high. So Yes, hi. Yeah, I'm vindicated on that. Second of all, at one point, Mike claimed that in listening to our podcast, which is cool, hi, Mike, if you're listening, he heard us making $400,000 or $500,000 price predictions for Bitcoin.

That is false. To my knowledge, we've never made a price prediction of any sort for Bitcoin, whether high or low. No, I don't even think that we've done that on our unrecorded chats. Yeah, I mean, first of all, I find those price predictions pretty asinine. I mean, is he getting me mixed up with the Winklevoss brothers? I mean, they're the ones that called for 500K Bitcoin. I'm pretty hard to mix up with them.

I think they're two to three feet taller than me for a start. Not that you don't think it's going there. You just haven't said it. Regardless of what my private thoughts are, I try to take a non-promotional approach and just stick to the substance. sense. So I was a little agreed by that because I thought that's pretty unfair that he was lumping me in with people that are super salesy about Bitcoin. So to be clear, that's not me. And so on the topic of Tether, so I would invite people to make up their own minds and actually

read the three papers that I mentioned. So I'll post them all on the show notes. The Viswanath Trash paper and the Latislav Christa fact paper, we interviewed both of the them on this show. So just listen to the academics themselves, discuss the paper in plain language. You don't have to necessarily read the paper if you don't want to. Just listen to our interviews with them. I give them the opportunity to lay out their true thoughts on the matter. At the end of the day, you're not going to be able to prove the solvency of tether by making a quantitative econometric analysis of tether injections versus Bitcoin price. That's not the matter that those papers are concerned with. They're concerned with assessing the veracity or the statistical

presence of a relationship between tether issuance and Bitcoin and Alcorn price changes. And on that topic, they do contradict Griffin and Champs. And both of them are clear about that in the interviews I did with them. So just listen to those. And you can make up your own mind. Of course, it's awkward being put on the spot to sort of vouch for Tether, which to be clear, I am not doing. Only Tether can prove the quality and maturity of their reserves. Only them. Nobody can really speak for them, definitely not me. Yeah, we'd love to see a proof of reserve there.

That would probably put a lot of people at ease. Yeah, so that's kind of their responsibility for sure. You know, you can sort of debunk some of the bad analyses around Tether. but at the end of the day, everybody is reliant on Tether to to attest to the quality of their reserves in a transparent way. So overall, it's a good debate.

Maybe we'll see more of those. It's always enjoyable to hear both sides of the argument, even if you don't agree with them. Yeah, it's been fun doing these debates with Bitcoin opponents. I did one with Francis Coppola. I think we're going to do a round two next week, actually. and then maybe I'll retire from debating Bitcoin critics for a while because it's tough.

All right, you want to move into some deals of the week? Yeah, so there are a number of deals this week. First up, we have Wire, which is a payment processor. There is $5 million from the Stellar Development Foundation. Next one up is DYDX, which is a decentralized derivatives exchange. They raise $10 million in a round led by three arrows to find Capital, Wintermute, GSM, Scalar, A16Z, and Polychain. Next up we have Parastate, which is a project that gives Ethereum developers access to the

Pocodot network. Pretty interesting. There was 1.3 million from CMS Holdings, kinetic, FBG, and JRR Capital. And the last one is Parsec, which is a decentralized finance platform. They raised $1.25 million from Polychain, Robot, Volt, Eric Connor, Alex Pack, and Will Price. So this is a pending deal, but Coinbase announced that they are going public via direct listing. Can't wait to read this S-1. And of course, I think now the direct listing rules, now they've changed, right? So you used to be able to go public via direct listing, but not raise primary capital, which is why a lot of people didn't do it.

But I believe those rules have been changed. So it'll be interesting to see if they raise capital, primary capital, as part of this listing, or if they just, you know, list. but highly anticipated. And you'd have to think that this is going to be a story stock here. And it will represent exposure to the industry for a great many institutional investors that don't hold crypto assets. I mean, am I exaggerating when I say that this is one of the most anticipated IPOs in sort of recent memory? Certainly, it's, I mean, it's the first big IPO in the industry.

Yeah, it feels like the first, you know, I don't remember the initial IPOs and the internet days. but this feels like it's probably on par with something like that. Well, the coin-based valuation, if you go by the FTX prediction market, is implied at $70 billion right now. What was the last round of financing in the $10 billion range? I think it was like 8.6. So that's a pretty good clip. Yeah, we'll see if that market is actually reliable.

I think it's a little thin. but I would not be shocked to see it trading there because we're talking about extremely high quality revenues they've had a monster year they've hit their all-time high-end volumes their institutional business is killing it they are somewhat diversified across their core business lines they're the blue chip Silicon Valley crypto firm and there aren't really that many other firms like them. They're probably the biggest single custodian of Bitcoin and crypto in the world. I was talking to someone this week that was suggesting that the crypto stocks that come out would start to almost be like internet stocks and you wouldn't be able to value them because they're

going to trade on like eyeballs, kind of like the early internet days. And I totally disagree with that. I mean, you're going to see that Coinbase and some of these brokerage companies that are on their heels. These are real businesses with really attractive revenues and, you know, gross margin profiles. Yeah, and if you compare the revenues at Coinbase to traditional brokerages, I'm sure you'll see Coinbase eclipse a lot of those brokerages that are publicly traded. And you can just compare the business models. Those existing brokerages, one of their main monetization vectors was the net interest income

on float, on cash being held on the brokerage. In a negative interest rate world, that has been significantly compared. compressed and impaired. So you have on the one hand this enormous vibrancy where you can still make strong margins from fees. People are willing to pay 200 bibs for a fiat on-rant product. And then on the other hand, you have these somewhat decaying brokerages where the fees are getting compressed of effectively zero and interest rates are sort of killing off a lot of the business. So on the topic of brokerage, we had a fan of the pod send me an email this week. And it's someone that has a relationship with a financial advisor that's part of a wirehouse bank. So I won't say which

one. But he sent a note to them asking for their opinion on Bitcoin as an investment. And the response was, you know, we don't offer any exposure to that through our platform. We think that it's, it is highly speculative. It's not a currency because you can't use it to buy things at stores. And here's an article that talks about how it's a fraud with a link to a tether analysis around how tether is just manipulating the price. So this is the type of advice some people at wirehouse brokerages are getting from their financial advisors. And so it leads you to wonder, what does the future look like when we start to have intergenerational wealth transfer and people below the age of 40 start to be real, you know, not only earners, but inheritors of

you know, boomer generation wealth? Do you think they're going to stick with some of those wirehouse RIAs or do you think they'll be on places like blockfi and coinbase? Yeah, and I think there's the intergenerational story around gold too. You know, I mean, I happen to like gold. I think it's a fine investment. But the revealed preference among millennials and zoomers, I think, is for digitized versions of the commodity. And I don't know if the gold bugs are going to win out here.

Although it could certainly be a positive decade for gold. You just like shiny rocks? Is that why? It doesn't really do much. I mean, gold is a, it has 5,000 years of history. It's very lindy. I am declaring a truce between the Bitcoiners and the gold bugs. I think we're actually on the complete same side here.

I'm just giving it hard time. I agree. I think that we should try to merge those tribes. Yeah, I never understood the hostility. We should be selling. into them. I think we'd all love to live in a world which is fully trust minimized and there's no dependence on third parties. Unfortunately, that's not the world we live in. And there are lots of instances where we might need to depend on a third party source of trust. For instance,

that a stable coin is fully reserved by credible fiat reserves in a commercial bank. One firm that provides these services is with them, a top 25 accounting firm in the United States. They have a dedicated digital assets practice covering tax financial statements advisory token issuances stable coin audits and legislative changes if you want to learn more about with them go to witham.com slash crypto that's w i t h um com slash crypto all right so let's talk about another publicly traded company here so silvergate financial this one i'm surprised more people didn't pick up on this so you know silvergate is obviously a bank that's on the cutting edge of this industry um they have the they have various products you know so

So the Silvergate Exchange Network is really ubiquitous in terms of trading and settlement of crypto assets between exchanges and OTC desks. So they announced a $287.5 million follow-on public offering of Class A common stock. So they sold more stock and they raised $287.5 million. So the language here around what it's for is really interesting. So it's for general corporate purposes, which may include providing capital to support the companies growth organically or through strategic acquisitions or other growth initiatives, including the bank's send leverage lending product, custody, and other digital asset services.

So my take here is that this is a pretty exciting development and you should expect probably to see some significant product development here out of Silvergate, whether it's internally building it themselves with this kind of new cash injection or maybe they go out and buy something. I think it's pretty exciting. Yeah, I think Silvergate is one of the most underrated companies in the crypto space. I know you could consider them adjacent to crypto because they're a service provider for a lot of crypto firms, but they're quietly becoming one of the more important firms in this industry in terms of making life easier for crypto-native firms. I agree.

So congratulations to the Silvergate team on that one. Next one up is CoinDesk had a report this week that there are several large university endowments that have been purchasing cryptocurrencies and storing them with Coinbase over the past year. They called out Harvard, Yale and University of Michigan. So what do you think of this one? Yeah, this isn't surprise us. We know endowments have invested in crypto firms and crypto VC firms as well. So I believe Paradigm got some institutional investment.

And I think Avanti received investment from a university endowment. So this does happen. I mean, BlockFi as well, I believe. So we know that endowments are active in the crypto space. But in this case, this isn't intermediated access. This is direct access to the asset itself, which is really interesting. This does remind me of a point I made in the debate, actually, where I was challenged on the commitment of some of these investors to the asset class. And I was informed that a lot of these guys just view it as a trade.

And my response to that was, well, you're only hearing from the loudest voices that are buying Bitcoin. And maybe there's a bit of sample bias there with some of the more short-term oriented funds. But not everybody who buys Bitcoin announces it right away. Not everyone has an incentive to. And then the next day, we hear about endowments that have been patiently accumulated Bitcoin over what appears to be a longer period of time here. And I think they have a pretty long-term time horizon. Correct me if I'm wrong.

They have a really long time horizon. And the interesting part of this to me is just think about the asset management firms that are asleep at the switch right now. So there are these legacy asset management businesses. A lot of them are based in Boston and they're not called fidelity. And they serve endowments. They serve sovereign wealth funds. They serve pension funds and large family offices. And they've been completely dismissive of Bitcoin and cryptocurrency.

currencies. And as we've been seeing, these customers are just going right around them. And they're going right to Coinbase. They're going right to Fidelity Digital assets. They're going right to New York Dig. And they're getting exposure. And so this is some real disruptive progress on the asset management side that a lot of these big asset managers don't really even know is happening. Well, maybe when Coinbase floats, their mind will change a little bit and they see what this business is worth. maybe in other news we had another ETF filing Valkyrie digital assets filed for an application with the SEC for Bitcoin ETF and you know I think we're going to start to see more of these I think we'll see more

applications this year certainly and people test out the Gensler regime I did find it interesting that Kathy Wood who's the founder and CEO of ARC made some comments this week at an ETF conference saying that she didn't think that the SEC would actually get on it and approve it until the market cap of Bitcoin hits two trillion. So, I mean, that's a 3x increase, actually, from where we are right now. And I guess her point is they're just going to see that retail is getting steamrolled here and we'll have to approve it at that point. But two trillions are ways off.

Yeah. Well, the premium is actually fairly low right now. So the efficiency of Bitcoin exposure through GBDC is good compared to where it's been historically. but regardless, every dollar of that premium gets arbitrage by these large funds is a dollar that retail loses. So it's directly in opposition because eventually the premium will go to zero that's guaranteed and retail will lose the difference or that won't be expressed in returns. So it really is a harm reduction issue and every month that the SEC delays there's more hard.

incurred by retail investors here. So speaking of the SEC, I came across a few comment letters that I want to highlight this week. So you probably remember a few weeks ago, the SEC put out a request for comment on custody of digital assets and specifically around the definition of a qualified custodian. And it was on the heels of the Wyoming news. And so really what the SEC is asking for comments on is whether or not these state-by-state regimes are sufficient to meet the definition of qualified custody in the eyes of the SEC. So Fidelity actually filed a comment letter

suggesting that they believe that their New York State Trust License model should qualify as a qualified custodian. And, you know, obviously not surprising that they think this since they chose that path and they want to serve institutional customers, but I thought they called out some interesting kind of facts. So if you just look at Bank of New York Mellon and the DTCCC, they're actually regulated under New York State Trust license, and they obviously offer qualified custody services.

So it would almost be hard to say that the licensing regime doesn't work. So it's kind of like an obvious thing that I just hadn't thought of. So for our listeners, why does that matter? Well, I think you just have institutional participants here that want to get exposure to this asset, want to buy Bitcoin, want to hold Bitcoin, but they want to do it with a qualified custodian. And so until, you know, some of these entities are regulated by the SSI, And so they want the SEC to say that, you know, this is a qualified custodian, basically. And so, you know, hopefully at the end of this comment period, you'll have some clarity from the SEC that, hey, we consider this New York trust license approach or, you know, Wyoming maybe, whatever.

We consider those to be qualified custodians. I guess the question is like, is the Salt Dakota version qualified custodian versus the New York version? It's pretty hard to argue. The New York version would be pretty hard to argue is not, I guess, is my point. point. So speaking of institutional plumbing for the asset class, DEC Genesis is Q4 market observations released. I think my comments on this paper are the same every single quarter. It's always really well written and it's always just so shocking to me how fast this company is growing. It's just the volumes on spot and derivatives and lending are just off the charts.

So Coinbase also released their 2020 interview from the Prime Services team. Yeah, and this is always, this is turning into another one just like Genesis that's a must read every quarter when they put it out. So I really enjoyed this. It's a good pulse of what large pools of capital are doing in this industry and also a good pulse on just the services that these brokerages are adding to really meet that customer demands. I like this one too. And the other piece of content that has everyone in Tizzy is Ray Dalio's views on Bitcoin entitled What I Think of Bitcoin. I think he's coming around.

He's not fully there, but he is following the principles, and he is being open-minded, and he's letting it seep in, and I think he's starting to come around. He thinks Bitcoin is one hell of an invention. He thinks it's becoming potentially a storehold of wealth. And he hints very, very heavily, in fact, maybe even just kind of, kind of says it that they're going to start a fund focused on storeholds of wealth, and Bitcoin will be analyzed as part of that, potentially. Yeah, I think the reason a lot of us expected Ray Dahlia to moderate his position on Bitcoin

and even flip favorable was because he has such a mature, long-term analysis of currencies and these transitions. I mean, his analysis that he posts on LinkedIn last year went back hundreds of years, and he was really focusing on the relationship between debt overhangs and the value of sovereign currencies. So if you use that framework, you see the fiscal position the U.S. is in right now. You see the deterioration of the dollar system, which is very clear. You start to wonder what comes next. And it's not clear that Bitcoin is what's next.

But it's one of the contenders for filling that gap if the dollar retreats at all. And if the U.S. government plunders the dollar to remedy, it's pretty disastrous fiscal position. So it was something I expected from Ray. So I'm encouraged that he's really started to take Bitcoin seriously. And it looks like his team, you know, they used a bunch of coin metrics data. It seems like they're really getting into it. Yeah, this is a well-research report. I think it's really well done.

It's not a completely overwhelmingly glowing review, but it's, I think, a really good start. Speaking of great letters, Bill Miller, not father, not the Leg Mason guy, but his son of Miller value, who's also named Bill Miller, also not to be confused with legendary third baseman on the 2004 Red Sox Bill Miller. with a M-U-E-L-E-R.

Three different guys. Bill Miller, the son, wrote a great Q-4 shareholder letter talking about Bitcoin's value proposition and talking about the rationale for investing in the micro-strategy convertible note, which I didn't really get the rationale, but it turns out he does a great job of explaining it,

and it does make a ton of sense. Yeah, I was also initially confused. This is Bill Miller the younger. It's still a very valid note. it's just not emanating from the Bill Miller that you that is the most famous I mean there's three now there's three famous Bill Millers I think I like all of them I still I think number one is the Red Sox 2004 hero Bill Miller well two of them like Bitcoin I mean possibly the baseball player as well someone should ask him yeah someone definitely needs to figure out where he is so I think

that's it for the week no football this weekend I think well is there a pro bowl I guess there's a pro ball The pro bowl seems to be getting more gimmick each and every year But I still watch it honestly I mean yeah you're gonna have to watch football So you know I'm sure we'll watch it But I'm really excited about Tom Brady being back in the Super Bowl What do you rate his odds?

Because the chiefs kind of look unstoppable to be honest So I don't know how Brady's gonna fare here I mean it historically has not been a really good decision to bet against Tom Brady so I'm rooting hard for him, but yeah, the Chiefs look like a machine right now. What's his record now? He's won six out of ten Super Bowls

that he's appeared in. Is that it? I think this is going to be his 10th Super Bowl, right? Okay. Six out of nine? Just mind-boggling. Yeah, it's unbelievable. Well, I'm cheering for Tom

because it would be nice to break up the tedium of the Chiefs decade-long dynasty, which appears to be developing here. And it's a cool story, too. It's a great story. We're rooting for them. All right, everyone, we will be back next week with another episode of On the Brink and some great interviews next week as well.