On The Brink with Castle Island - Weekly Roundup 03/14/25 (SBR is real, Trump and Binance, CZ pardon rumors) (EP.603)

Episode Date: March 14, 2025

Matt and Nic are back for another week of news and deals. In this episode:  The Strategic Bitcoin Reserve exists Will the government buy additional Bitcoin? What does "cost neutral" mean? What's the deal with our cheese reserve Have Bitcoiners lost their libertarian origins? The OCC reverses their anti-crypto guidance Sentiment in crypto is at all time lows Is CZ seeking a pardon deal in exchange for a sale of Binance equity? Senate Banking votes to advance the Hagerty Stablecoin bill The banks are against interest-bearing stablecoins We recap the White House Crypto Summit Banks want to do crypto 

Matt Walsh and Nick Carter are partners at Castle Island Ventures. All of these expressed by them or the guests on this podcast are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Castle Island Ventures. Guests and host may maintain positions in the assets discussed in this podcast. You should not treat any opinion expressed by anyone on this podcast as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of their personal opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only. Brought down by bad mortgage investments, Lehman, which has 25,000 employees will be liquidated.

The federal government loans American International Group, AI, IG 85 billion dollars. This is a different kind of market, and the Fed is asleep. The federal government is stepping it to stabilize Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the two mortgage giants that have been threatened by the housing crisis. The Bank of England has pumped 75 billion pounds more to Britain's ailing economy with a new round of quantitative easing and print a couple trillion dollars and all of a sudden people start to worry.

So out of this worry, we have something called a Bitcoin. Welcome to On the Brinkup, Matt Walsh. And I'm Nick Carter. So the Strategic Reserve happened. I guess the Friday that we released the podcast, we have clear direction on the strategic reserve. And I, for one, think we ended up in a pretty good spot there. Yeah, why does news always break the day after we record? What's up with that? It's happening a lot lately. But basically, if you haven't seen it, I guess there's a concept of a strategic reserve and then there's a strategic stockpile, I guess is the second bucket.

Digital asset stock. Non-strategic. It's not strategic. It's kind of like a dung heap. Yeah, I guess where we landed was Bitcoin is in a strategic reserve. They're going to take the Bitcoin that they already have. They're going to do a full audit, find all the UTXOs in the federal government. Good luck there. I mean, that could be a cat labs. Could be anywhere. There and find some of those coins.

And then they're going to get them all together, presumably hold them at Coinbase, I guess, right? Because Coinbase has the contract with the U.S. government. Yeah. And then they're just not going to sell them. I guess they'll have to sell, they'll have to give back the Bitfinex coins. So there's something in the neighborhood of 200,000 Bitcoin that the U.S. government thinks it has. A subset of that belongs to BitFinex, which I would think they'd have to send that back.

And then they're not going to sell. And then there's a second bucket, which is the stockpile, which has a bunch of coins in it, Cardano, B&B, ripple. And I guess they also got those through seizures, it sounds like. And they might sell those into Bitcoin, is the sense. have. Yeah, I think that's right. The stockpile can be sold. It's kind of up to the discretion of, I think, the Treasury Secretary. Right. The Bitcoins are not to be sold. They kind of equivocated a bit on whether they were going to buy more Bitcoin. I think it was either Treasury or Commerce was

directed to analyze. They shall. There was the word shall in there. The people are very excited about. They're analyzing the prospects for how they could buy more in a, what does they say, cost neutral manner? Cost neutral manner, which to me, the read between the lines is they will sell some of the B&B or the Cardano or something into Bitcoin. That seems cost neutral. Yeah, I mean, people are now going online and finding all sorts of, you know, loopholes and things the federal government has that we could sell such that we could buy bitcoin i don't think that's going to happen aside from maybe bnb which no one's going to complain about selling bnb right uh i you know revaluing gold up and i i mean cost neutral doesn't mean politically without issue it doesn't mean opportunity

cost neutral right i mean you could spend those those funds on anything like paying down the debt for instance, you know? So if you're going to free up three quarters of a trillion dollars by valuing up the gold, pay down some of the debt. There's a lot of cheese in Missouri that could be sold, apparently. Did you see this stockpile? Everyone's talking about stockpiles. It's in caves in Missouri. Caves. Is it what a billion dollars worth of cheese? The petroleum we have is also in salt caverns, I believe. I don't know why it's in salt caverns. We have a billion dollars of cheese. Something like that, yeah. unbelievable amount of cheese.

It's comforting. Comforting thought. It's good to know in case of crisis. We've got that. I would think the cheese goes bad. I guess I was wrong about that. Yeah, I mean, you put it in a wheel, right? Like wax or something?

And it just stays good for a long time. I think that's the whole premise of cheese, honestly, is that you're turning milk into something more persistent. I think at most I would have cheese in my house for two weeks before it turns bad. Yeah, but some cheese is like aged, like an aged Gouda or something. That could be a year. How incredible would it be if they came out and actually said, look, we're going to sell some of this cheese.

We're going to buy some Bitcoin with it. Cost neutral, call today. I'd be upset. Look, you can't eat Bitcoin. A lot of people are reaching out to me and saying, I'm really surprised that Nick Carter, the guy who just loves Bitcoin, is not in favor of the U.S. having a strategic. reserve and buying more Bitcoin.

I mean, shouldn't that grant my view more credence, perhaps, that I am pro-Bitcoin and I don't support it? Look, Nick is a heterodox thinker. He's just not going to fall in mind here. I mean, I don't understand what's surprising about it. I've painstakingly laid out my position in writing. If anybody wants to find out why I hold the view that I have, I wrote it down. You did.

You just have to read the article. Yeah, we should put that in the show notes. I invite you all to read it. No more confusion, no more surprise. I mean, I just don't understand how Bitcoiners, they used to be libertarians. You remember those days, Matt? I do remember those days. And so now we're begging the government to come in and buy our bags.

When did that happen? When did the government become part of the thesis for Bitcoin? You know what I was thinking about the other day? is this industry used to just be libertarians and neck beards. And now there's a lot of collar shirts, me being among them. You were one of the first. One of the first collar shirt. You're a color shirt from inception.

From day one, you're in a college shirt. And you used to get these startup pitches, and they all used to start the same way. I first figured out about Bitcoin when I read the white paper back in 2013. That was how every pitch used to start. Yeah, now that we live, now that it's 2025, I think we can just dispense with our Bitcoin origin stories. Like we don't need to do it anymore. Well, now you have a different thing. It's like,

I first got into crypto by using Solana. You know, it's, people are coming at it from a totally different angle. Like when someone goes in to interview like a, you know, for a hedge fund position, they don't say like, oh, I first found out about equities when I was eight. Right. You know, no one talks about their equity origin story. They don't. Because I think it used to be this way of like showing credibility like, oh, I've been in Bitcoin for a long time. Now it's like, well, that doesn't matter. That shouldn't matter. Your skills and the strength of your views should matter, not like how early you were. I'm ready to totally discount this earliness premium. I'm ready to throw it out. I think that's fair. I think the earlyness premium doesn't really exist

anymore. Plus, half the time someone was telling you they got into Bitcoin in 2012 through like a non-nefarious use case, they're definitely lying. It's like you were buying cocaine on the Silk Road if you're into Bitcoin in 2011. People are just generally lying about that too. Like there weren't that many people into Bitcoin in 2011. They're like 12. So anyways, that was the strategic reserve. Kind of an eventful week here.

We're ramping up the podcasts. Yep. You sat down with Brandon Mulvahill of crossover markets. That was a fun one, talking about Mark. structure for the market structure wonks and then had Jeff Park on Jeff first came on Jeff is the head of Alpha Strategies at Bitwise and he came on about three years ago when he first joined Bitwise but really built out a great team over there on the Alpha team. So we talked about micro strategy and Jeff's is really knowledgeable about micro strategy. This new preferred offering

is quite an interesting financial instrument if you're deep in the weeds. So is there a number which micro strategy has to sell all the Bitcoin. What's the verdict? I'm not sure that there is. They don't really have like, you remember when they had the Silvergate loan. It was collateralized against Bitcoin. It was a cash loan. And then they bought that back. So I don't know. I think Sailor can keep running this playbook for a while. How the new preferred security works, I'm not exactly sure though. They just came out with that. Did you see it was a $21 billion goal? on the new preferred instrument? I mean, they're setting some audacious,

truly audacious goals for the amount of Bitcoin they want to buy here. Sailor is going to have some interesting opportunities to buy here because we're just in a, how would you categorize what's happening in the macro world right now? It's a growth scare to some degree. I mean, there's certain risk factors, like the financial surprise index,

I think is like the highest it's been in decades. So it's like you've got tariffs, are happening intermittently, threats of terrorists. We don't know trade war. We have inflation generally surprised into the upside. Financial uncertainty. You don't know if the input costs for whatever kind of business you run are going to be 100% higher next month because of a tariff.

The tenure keeps rising. I mean, it's a challenging time out there in macro land. It really is. And that plays into consumer confidence, which has a ripple effect in and of itself. You know, people start to get worried, people stop spending as much. It can dovetail into an ugly situation. And you look at the greed versus fear index on crypto right now.

It is just flashing red. It's all fear. Yeah. I mean, sentiment in crypto is like maybe the worst I've seen it, which is really surprising against the backdrop of everything that's great that's happening. Right. It's hard to reconcile. I mean, on the one hand, you have literally a strategic reserve.

Like, the government is maybe buying Bitcoin. They're at least holding it. They've just officially endorsed Bitcoin, basically. You have all of these pieces of legislation moving through Congress. You have all of these agencies reversing this prior hostile guidance, turning on new favorable guidance. The banks can now touch crypto, probably. All of this stuff is positive.

And then meanwhile, people in crypto think it's the apocalypse. It's such a puzzling thing. It's really weird. It's really weird. I don't think there's ever been more positive stories or positive catalysts in the crypto space. But everything is just macro right now. It's kind of hard to find anything in the broader equity landscape that's doing well. Yeah. But then, you know, the thing is, yeah, like prices can go down, but people take it to mean, like, they take it to mean that their theses have been invalidated.

Like I'm seeing people saying all everything we build in crypto is for nothing. It's only Bitcoin and maybe stable coins that matter and everything else is garbage. So for some reason, they're interpreting price action and taking that to me to mean that crypto itself is like not worth building in anymore. Which I don't know where that attitude is coming from. You do hear the kind of I thought this was a inflation hedge or I think thought this was a, you know, a kind of a gold-like instrument. And it's important to remember that it's a venture bet on the emergence of something like

digital gold when you're talking about Bitcoin. Yeah. But I mean, people regarding defy, people are now saying, well, it just wasn't worth it. Like, it's over. Yeah. Yeah. Well, just, I don't know where that is coming from. I mean, just because the coin sold off, like, if the infrastructure still works, it seems

do you working fine. I agree. All right, let's hop into some deals of the week. First one up is Binance. This is the largest crypto exchange in the world. They have raised $2 billion from Abu Dhabi based MGX. I don't know if this was a primary offering or a secondary here, but that's a big, big transaction to say the least.

Yeah, more to come on Binance in a minute. Before that August digital, D5 Prime brokerage platform, there is 10 million from Dragonfly, Maven 11, robot ventures. Then it's Rakarai. This is a Salana staking protocol. They raised 3 million from Anagram Ventures, Slow Ventures, and Coliseum. Then you have Mesh, a stablecoin payments platform. There is 82 million from Paradigm, Consensus, and others. Then as a Vest Exchange, a decentralized crypto exchange, they raise 5 million from Jane Street, Amber Group, Big Brain Holdings, and a number of others.

Then you have offline protocol, a decentralized messaging protocol. There is 1 million from portal ventures, Seed Club Ventures, and others. Arda is a tokenized real estate platform that raised $3 million from LightShift. This is Ollie Harris's company. Sorry to interrupt. Ali Harris, formerly of Goldman Sachs. So congrats to Ollie. Next up we have sogni.a.ai, decentralized AI platform for creators.

They raised 2 million from comma three ventures, Republic, and Formless Capital. Then it's M10, a Web3 game developer that raised 3 million from Sween Foundation, GSM, and Big Brain Holdings. Then Moon Pay, the crypto payments business, they required iron, a stablecoin infrastructure company. And the last one is NYX Finance. This is a decentralized derivatives exchange that raised $5 million from Hachkey, D11 Labs, and meta-alpha.

Deals keep on coming. That's good. Yeah, some chunky ones this week. Basically, all the news here is political big story drop this morning, the WSJ reported that some individuals in Trump's circle have held talks to invest in Binance U.S. as a possible kind of quid pro quo in exchange for a pardon for CZ. CZ for his part denied the story. I don't know.

What do you make of this? I mean, CZ came out and quickly denied it and said, look, they've talked to like 20 people I know and I've been denying it. and this is all just political. I was one of those people, actually. Oh, yeah? Yeah, a journalist reached out to me and asked me if Cizzi was running around D.C. asking for a pardon.

So representatives of Trump, like, I mean, so I guess what's your take here? There's two different things. It's requesting a pardon, which he didn't deny. I think anyone who's a convicted felon would probably be pursuing a pardon. But he vehemently denied that they were engaged in talks to have Trump invest in finance US. I don't have any details of this that haven't been reported. The AWSJ said Steve Wickoff was involved.

Wouldn't surprise me. But I feel like he's busy, man. I mean, isn't he meant to be like mediating peace in the Middle East and Ukraine and everything? Like, how does he have time for this? How does he have time for a side quest? I mean, there is a lot of legal entities that are affiliated with Trump. And, you know, since before the election, they've all kind of been involved in, the crypto industry. So to have a conversation with the company that's raising money wouldn't be

all that surprising. I don't know. I don't see it as a huge story. There was that story a few months ago that was a truth social, which is now converted into a financial services company, was talking about buying backed at one point. So it's clearly interested in exchange. Kelly Lover was in the, Kelly Lover, former CEO backed was at the summit at the White House too. Right. What I think happened with the stories that like maybe Wittkoff or someone else and Trump's circle met with CZ or some other Binance person and then it kind of escalated. Yeah, but I would say this doesn't seem really big to me. I think it would be a scandal if it was real. Like we can't have pardoned, quid pro quo have a stake in my company in exchange for a pardon. Oh, certainly that part. No,

but just having some affiliated company invest in Binance, US. I mean, that wouldn't be that big of a story. well this is the problem is that Trump has a business empire he's handed over to his children they're running it they love crypto they're obsessed with crypto Trump's directly impacting the crypto space I mean this is what we've been saying like even if it's all fully benign and above the table has the appearance of impropriety this is why presidents should not run businesses while they're in office well it's uh it's uh it's uh it's a good point. Well, we'll see if anything else comes out of that story. But Cizzi probably took a big secondary in that Abu Dhabi investment. So he's a, Cizzi's going to end up being one of the richest people on planet Earth here, it turns out. He's out of jail. He's living his best life. Good for him. All right. In happier news here, the Senate Banking Committee, they have voted 18 to 6, bipartisan support there to advance the Stable Coin Bill out of the Senate Banking Committee.

So this is the Haggerty bill. It's known as the Genius Act. So now it will go to the full Senate. I did not watch this hearing because we've been in meetings all day, but it looks like Elizabeth Warren had a laundry list of amendments proposed, and they all did not go through. Well, that's encouraging. Really exciting to see.

Not often the piece of crypto legislation makes out a committee even. It seems to be a lot of political support, around this bill on both sides, in both houses, rather. Really wouldn't be surprised to see it passed. I will note, I read the new text of the Hill Draft, and people's worst fears around tether were not realized. There was all these theories about circle lobbying, to put anti-tether language in there.

It didn't look that bad. It basically means you can't really touch tether if they are an offshore issuer. If you are an onshore firm, you can't really use Tether. That's kind of how it works now. So nothing about not letting them access the treasure market or anything. It's a bunch of chatter around the bank lobby trying to have a hand in this. I'd be interested to see where that comes down.

I saw their fingerprints in the new draft because the draft prohibits interest-bearing stable coins. And if you think about it from the banks' perspective, they don't want interest-bearing stable coins. That's like a super-high-yield checking account. And the banks want to continue to nickel and dime everyone and not pay, you know, the Treasury rate. They want to pay you like 50 basis points or whatever in your savings account.

So banks hate the idea of an interest-bearing stable coin. Kind of disintermediates them. so I think that's why that's in there. So I can already see the next battle there, which is going to be around tokenized money market mutual funds. It's probably something that would get taken up in a market structure bill, I would guess. But if you could have a tokenized money market mutual fund, even if it was just a security on chain,

that's way more attractive than a bank deposit. I don't know. I guess maybe like a stable coin seems more like a checking account deposit than a tokenized T-bill. Well, tokenized, you know, A stable coin would at least be you could use it for a lot of stuff, right? You could put it in a defy pool. You could do all sorts of stuff.

It's not incredibly clear to me if you tokenize a money market fund. And let's just say it is a security. What can you actually do with the security? Is it truly permissionless? Yeah. I mean, Biddle, like you can't just use that in defy, right? Not to my, I don't think you can. No.

Yeah. So interesting developments there, but it's not lost on me that this is a huge deal if this thing actually gets out of the Senate. So kudos to the Senate Banking Committee here for staying true to a bunch of these people ran in recent elections and saying that they would do this and they did it. Yeah. And well, we haven't really talked about the summit. That also happened last week. At the summit, Trump did say he wants to see, I think, crypto legislation on his desk within the next couple months, right?

Do you say by June? He did. He said by the recess, I think, which I think. is in July. But does he mean the stablecoin bill, in which case I think it probably will be on his desk by then? Or does he mean a full-blown market structure bill? Yeah. What were your other takeaways from the summit? They spent a lot of time on FIFA, which was strange. Which I thought was weird because soccer is just a totally non-U.S. sport. It doesn't really matter at all to anyone. All the leading lights of crypto were there and they were completely non-plused by

and Fantino extolling the virtues of the new trophy. That was so bizarre. That was really weird. But I guess the back story there was that there was some FIFA ceremony right before. And Trump just said, why don't we bring this trophy in and show all the crypto guys? Yeah, I was watching the stream. And it was all about FIFA. And then Trump just blended the two meetings together.

He let the meeting bleed into the other meeting. Trump, I think he can do that. Yeah, I think that's just doing the weave, I guess. I thought Sacks did a really good job. I'm very happy that Sacks was the pick. Yeah. Seeming like a pretty perfunctory meeting by all accounts, but either way, it's a nice show of support to the crypto space.

And, you know, to Trump's credit, he's delivering on the crypto promises made completely delivering. He came out and said, I'm ending chokepoint. So you had to feel pretty good about that. Yeah, he did say that. But on that front, the OCC released a letter today saying banks can deal with crypto. That was great news. Or actually last week, sorry. And I'm told there's an executive order on chokepoint 2.0 coming out as well.

I guess we don't- In the coming days and weeks. Yeah, I guess we haven't talked that much about it. But, you know, you have the Sab 121 thing that held the banks back, but it was also the interpretive guidance from some of these agencies that has also held the banks back. So when the joint statement between what was at the Federal Reserve and the OCC came out that said be careful, stay away from crypto, a lot of banks just said, all right, we're packing it in. Yeah, I mean, if your primary regulator is telling you, we don't, we really think this is super risky,

like we can't prohibit it, but like we really don't think you should do it. You're not going to do it. So that was the Fed OCC and FDIC. We've had a leadership change at the FDIC. More has to change. there. The OCC things appear to be totally on a new path and trajectory. The Fed, the Fed is an open question, honestly, because it's still Democrat controlled. And Michelle Bowman is now the vice chair of supervision. She took her from Barr, who was super, super hostile to crypto. But Mickey Bowman is not actually really a fan of crypto either. So I, there's not that many ways for the Fed to reverse course, to be honest. You know who is a fan of crypto and who really gets it is Kevin Warsh? So Powell's term ends in, is it 26? In 26. Yeah. So I mean,

I don't think we want to wait that long to end some of these practices, but Kevin Warsh certainly knows a lot about the industry. That is the one that worries me, the Fed, but there's plenty of ways to do things without the Fed, I suppose. Either way, the banks are going to come into crypto. Nothing's going to stop that flood at this point. Well, you know it's going to bring them in as you can just make an awful lot of money if you're a bank operating in this industry. So nothing but the profit motive is necessary for the banks to try to get active here, which is why I think we're seeing them be very, very active here behind the scenes. They've wanted to get into crypto. That's the thing. You look at the pause letters.

all of these banks went against what the regulator suggested and tried to do crypto. And then the FDIC said, no, you really can't do it. So they were risking a lot to try and do crypto things because they saw their deposits leaving the crypto exchanges. They saw that. So the banks, people say it's like us versus the banks, it's not. The banks want to do crypto. We just have to let them. You know, some of the best lending in the world is what, did you remember when Alan Lane was

doing that loan to micro strategy and he said this is the best lending that a banker can do. So you're lending against over. Because it's fully collateralized. Yeah, it's well over collateralized. And as long as you think that you can liquidate the position, which operationally is not that complicated, I think some of those rates were like 12 to 14 percent rates. That is some of the best lending you can do if you're a bank. Yeah, from the lender perspective, it's kind of usurious from the borrower perspective.

Yeah, but people do it, right? Because people don't want to sell their Bitcoin and people need to live in the real world. So buying houses and, you know, it's a classic case of just an inefficient market, I suppose. In the SEC, acting chairman Mark UATIS scrapped the rule change that would have expanded the definition of an exchange to include crypto protocols. Another reversal from the SEC, very good to see. Just common sense there. So just pressing pause on that one. one. And then the defy provision here. So the IRS broker rule, the House of Representatives

has voted to overturn that. A bunch of Democrats got on board. A lot of Democrats voted for this one. So starting to see the impact here of maybe broader education, maybe the impact of Fairshake, who knows, but it was great to see this one overturned. So the Senate had already overturned it. Yeah. I mean, it's just like it's like victories for the crypto space and every single conceivable facet here. You know, overturning this bad guidance on defy, on taxes. I mean, it's just, it's win after win after when. So how could you possibly be upset? Like I get it. The coins are down. I get it. But like, what if there was more to life than the prices of the coins, you know? What if we ultimately wanted this infrastructure to be usable for

something and these bad rules going away means the prospect. of crypto succeeding are much higher. What about that? So when people are upset that the price of the coins are going down, while the fundamentals are improving, they're telling on themselves. They are.

They are telling on themselves. It shows that they don't actually believe in what they're building, and they're just opportunists. If you believe in the industry, you have to be happy. You have to have a positive disposition. You're not allowed to be upset.

No crying in the casino. You really have to just take step back and see what's going on here and, you know, just things will turn around. I don't think we're going to think we're going to be in this like equity risk off situation forever. So take a deep breath. In other great news, this Fidelity Ethereum ETF, this has been filed by CBOE. They amended the filing on the Ethereum, I guess it's F-Eath. And they amended it to include staking. And the SEC has acknowledged receipt of that. So it looks like we might be getting staking in these Ethereum ETFs.

Also on the ETF front, the SEC has delayed any next steps on crypto ETF filings until Paul Atkins has been sworn in. That seems like a smart thing, right? Yeah. And Canter has chosen Anchorage and Copper as their custody providers. They are trying to get into the Bitcoin Credit and financing business. congrats to Nathan and the Anchorage team. Yeah, that's a big development.

So Cantor has a big operation over there. Didn't they earmark $2 billion for this effort? Wow. Yeah, they do. I mean, that's in the category of some of the best lending that we were just talking about. So not surprising to see folks kind of wake up to that opportunity. But I wonder what else they're going to do out of that operation. Maybe they could custody the bitcoins for the government.

Well, they could do that. but this kind of goes a step deeper on the banks, but not all these custodian banks are really involved in financing. So really what we need here is more intermediation, which is somewhat antithetical to what we're trying to do in crypto. But if you look at the banks that are active in global custody and then the banks that would actually give you, like, a loan and, you know, look at a prime brokerage type of relationship with you, they're different banks. So you probably end up in a world where someone like a canter is plugging into a qualified custodian, which they've already made their move here with Anchorage, who is a bank. But that's probably what it ends up looking

like, right? These investment banks are not going to roll their own custody. They're just going to plug into Boney and stay straight and do financing off of that stack. Yeah, that would make sense. That's probably, as it should be, a kind of separation of labor anyway. All right. So I think that's it for the week. We are, we're both running to meetings. So that's all. the news we have for today. I just saw a dolphin outside. That was pretty cool. Wow. Yeah. Pretty excited about that. That's a good sign. It's a good sign. Yeah, I think. Yeah, I think it means something. Yeah, maybe something's going to turn around here. Yeah, I don't know. I'm just see some homeless people. So I'm not seeing the dolphins. All right, everyone, that is it for the

week. Just listen to Nick and just have a positive disposition. You have to, you got to stay positive. No crying in the casino. All right, everybody. Have a safe and healthy weekend and we will see you on Monday.