On The Brink with Castle Island - Weekly Roundup 10/17/25 (Flash crash, pig butchering scam busted, Erebor charter granted) (EP.678)

Episode Date: October 17, 2025

Matt and Nic are back with another week of news and deals. In this episode:  We dissect the market structure behind the flash crash last week What happened with Binance and Ethena? Palmer Luckey's de novo bank Erebor gets an OCC charter Paxos' fat finger The US government has seized $15b in funds tied to pig butchering scams  

Matt Walsh and Nick Carter are partners at Castle Island Ventures. All of these expressed by them or the guests on this podcast are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Castle Island Ventures. Guests and host may maintain positions in the assets discussed in this podcast. You should not treat any opinion expressed by anyone on this podcast as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of their personal opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only. Brought down by bad mortgage investments, Lehman, which has 25,000 employees will be liquidated.

The federal government loans American International Group, AI, IG $85 billion. This is a different kind of market, and the Fed is asleep. The federal government is stepping it to stabilize Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the two mortgage giants that have been threatened by the housing crisis. The Bank of England has pumped 75 billion pounds more to Britain's ailing economy with a new round of quantitative easing and print a couple trillion dollars and all of a sudden people start to worry.

So out of this worry, we have something called a Bitcoin. Welcome to On the Brink. I'm Matt Walsh. And I'm Nick Carter. Recording this one on a Friday. We're not on like a. consistent schedule here, I would say. So what is it, why is it that huge news and, you know, earth-shaking events always happened instant that we stop recording? I know. And how about last

week when I was like, yeah, market's looking pretty good. And then boom, flash crash. The worst crash, I think, since March 2020 in crypto. All technical, though. All technical. Well, virtually every asset class is down this morning. But what happened last week was pretty egregious. I've read a lot of postmortems. I still haven't quite figured out what the actual cause was. Yeah, we need to get better at looking at order book data as an industry and going back and figuring out what happened. So this happened at what was it about 4 or 5 p.m. Eastern on Friday. And you had the tariff news, right?

So Trump came out and said, I'm going to put 100% additional tariff on China. That stuck for about 48 hours before it was rolled back. But once that happened, you saw some basically risk-off behavior in the crypto markets, particularly around perpetual futures contracts. And so hyper-liquid, I think you could look at that venue and say there's a lot of retail there that is highly levered. And so as the sell-off started to happen there, you started to have a downside. And then some weird stuff was happening on Binance.

It looked to me, I don't know if we have a definitive post-mortem, but it looked to me based on them coming out and saying that they're going to make users whole, that they might have had a pricing issue with some of the perpetual futures contracts on their venue. And perhaps we're not using a reference rate for liquidations that was based on a market view of what these assets are worth, but rather what the assets were worth in their own order book on their own exchange. So for instance, I think Athena's stable coin traded, broke the buck on Binance, but it was fully collateralized and it was trading at par on every other exchange. It seems like there was liquidations based on the internal finance price, if I had to guess.

But again, I don't think we have a definitive postmortem on that. And so I think you had these liquidations on finance. You had these simultaneous liquidations on hyperliquid. All of it's obviously intertwined. And then you just saw a lot of risk off. And these exchanges went into auto de-leveraging, which means that people that had open positions, even if they were in profit, were getting stomped out. Basically, the positions were getting closed.

So it caused mass mass chaos. I mean, that was nuts. I wouldn't be surprised if you have some market makers that actually got blown up in this whole deal. And we see some funds and some market makers a week or two from now come on and say, hey, we had a, you know, cataclysmic event a week or two ago. Yeah, I mean, I think the market makers, a lot of them just pulled their liquidity. That's what it seemed like to me. Yeah, that's what it seemed like to me.

And we, I mean, Bitcoin was down 13% in one hour. I've never seen, I mean, maybe this happened in 2020. I've never seen major as like top 30 assets being down 50% in one hour. Yeah, but then coming right back, right? So which tells you that it was probably more of a technical issue on violence. Yeah. And I mean, some majors printed at zero. There were trades that happened, you know, basically near zero because the whole order book was just evaporated. So, yeah, I mean, I think one of the main culprits here is the lack of risk mutualization in crypto.

We have these stranded venues, which are these stranded pools of liquidity, and they have to basically make everything balance all the time. And, you know, whether it's hyperliquid or finance or any of the offshore exchangers, these defy protocols. you end up being forced. I mean, this is kind of what we saw with Bitmex in 2020. Yes. Yeah. And it's just not how it works in traditional equity markets. You have circuit breakers.

You have margin requirements that are more dynamic to the volatility. You have market-wide circuit breakers. You have all sorts of organizations that are responsible. for sort of posting collateral and, you know, the kind of first line of defense, second line of defense, you have clearing houses. On these derivatives exchanges, you know, the margin is assessed not even at the portfolio level. It's at the individual position level. And so I think as long as we have this extremely scattered set of exchanges, captive pulls liquidity, then you're just, you're going to have these kinds of issues inherently.

Yeah. And obviously in these perpetual futures contracts, you're trading against the long side is trading against the short side. So there's actually no crypto here behind any of these trades. You're trading a derivative contract. And when the order books dry up here, when people pull liquidity, that has a dramatic effect on the price of these things. Yeah, and index pricing methodology becomes so important. I mean, we've seen this issue for the last decade in crypto is, is, you know, poor underlying

index prints causing liquidations, whether it's malicious or not. There are some allegations that maybe there were, you know, there were targeted attacks that there was, you know, a couple pieces I read saying, well, people thought maybe because USDE, Athena's USDA became this collateral type on finance and there was an effort to undermine it, the value of the collateral to cause liquidations because, you know, portfolio margin would drop if the value of the collateral dropped. That was kind of, that could have been a lot worse, I think, if, if USDA had been more dynamically pegged in on defy. that it's kind of hard-coded to one in Avey.

So there's like some conspiracies swirling around that. I don't know if I believe them. No, I don't think I believe the conspiracies that Binances out to get anyone. I just think there's a good chance. I guess we'll see if they ever do a post-mortem. But I think there's a good chance that they're pricing reference rates for these liquidations were just based on internal order books. And they weren't based on just looking at the market, which they should be.

Yeah, I don't know if anything's going to. change until there are organizations that develop that are the equivalent of like clearing houses that we have in traditional markets and before we can create like self-regulatory organizations or something like that that impose rules on the basically while markets are fragmented I think we're going to have this issue I think that's probably right so we had a busy week on the podcast why it sat down with pbj of purple to talk about perpetual exchanges and talk about the Monad blockchain. And you sat down with Dave Balter, founder and CEO Flipside,

one of the very first investments we ever made to discuss the convergence of AI and blockchain analytics. That was a good episode. We haven't done that many podcasts at that convergence of AI and blockchain, but Dave was a fun one to get into that with. And it was a busy deal week. First one up is Calci, the prediction market. They've raised $300 million from Sequoia, A16Z, Crypto, Paradigm,

and a number of others. Then you have small exchange that's a registered DCM. They were acquired for $100 million by Cracken. Then it's daylight energy, a decentralized solar power marketplace. They raise $75 million from Framework, Turtle Hill Capital, A16Z crypto, and a number of others. Gito is a Solana liquid staking protocol. There is $50 million from A16Z crypto. Inference, a decentralized AI platform raised $11 million from multi-coin,

and mechanism. Then you have better payments network. That's a stable coin-based payments platform. There is 50 million from YZI Labs or Easy Labs. Easy Labs. Easy Labs. That's the Binance. Yeah.

Temple is a decentralized exchange building on the Canton network. They have raised $5 million from paper ventures, YZI Labs, and CMT. Crown is a Brazilian stablecoin infrastructure company. There is $8 million from framework, Valor Capital, and coin-based ventures. And then Ripple has acquired. at a company called G Treasury, which is a corporate treasury platform outside of crypto for a billion dollars. And lastly, CoinBiss has made a strategic investment in Coin, DCX, and Indian crypto exchange.

Busy deal week. All right. So we talked a little bit about the selloffs here. Everything's kind of coming back to normal here. But I think the big story for the next couple of weeks will be these refunds that are happening on finance, whether people get made whole. And then I'm just very curious around this market structure going forward if you actually have market makers that are out of business that are not going to come back. You could have some delta neutral hedge funds that got impacted here with auto de-leveraging as well. So I think there's probably some hard conversations ahead with people that are managing other people's money and might have gotten liquidated on some of this.

So potentially some crypto hedge funds that have big holes here after the last week. The thing is no one ever wants to admit it. that they lost money because then, you know, no one will lend to them or do business with them. So nobody ever admits it until they have to. The other thing no one talks about is the people that actually made money on this whole thing. And so if you were hanging just these stink bib limit orders on Ave at two bucks or something and maybe you got filled when it went to close to zero on some of these venues, then you probably made a lot of money. Yeah, there was a weird, this was reported in the Wall Street Journal.

there were weird large shorts taken out minutes before Trump announced the new tariffs on China and people think that was an insider. And this happened on chain. I saw that. And then there was these, you know, CZ retweeted some thread that had this guy that had a $15 billion position. Probably not responsible to call these names out because who knows if this is real or not. But there are some interesting threads around people trying to configure on chain who, who actually could have done this?

Yeah, I don't know if it is, if there's a single cause or, you know, one malicious entity behind this. It could just be enough kindling built up in leverage. I honestly, I think one of the big causes aside from the general market structure reason we've been talking about is simply the success of hyperliquid and so many like retail traders with a, you know, fairly large book, but let's say still retail got accustomed to trading with lever. didn't fully understand the risks of trading on a zero-sum, you know, cash-settled, you know, features exchange, basically with the ADL possibility. ADL is pretty rare.

And if maybe if you weren't around in the Bitmex days, you know, you never experienced it. And so I think the kindling that had built up was just thousands and thousands of retail traders that had only ever known and traded on hyperliquid in a bull market and didn't know how bad things could get when the market got dislocated. I think that's right. I mean, you're talking about a derivative instrument ultimately that is pretty complicated, and you should be risk managing this if you're trading on these things.

It's like handing a McLaren to a 15-year-old and just telling them to have a nice day. Yeah, but I mean, even the risk, even people that are practicing, quote, good risk management got stopped out and liquidated during the crisis. Like you could have been, you know, 1.5x long and been liquidated. Yeah. And if you were hedged, you got liquidated.

You got de-leveraged on the short side of the hedge. It's funny on some of these offshore venues. I mean, you can just trade whatever you want. But in the real markets and traditional markets, you'd be signing ISDAs and you'd have to be a real qualified. participant in these markets. And obviously in cryptocurrency, especially on the Asian venues,

there's no concept of that. Yeah. And this is the thing. It's Chesterton's fence. Like should ordinary people have access to 50, 100x leverage or even 5x leverage, frankly, with no qualification whatsoever?

I mean, frankly, you can get this kind of leverage on interactive brokers, sort of. But there's so many guardrails that exist. in traditional markets, that it's quite hard to get access to these kinds of tools as an ordinary individual. There's a reason these guardrails exist and you only realize that when you've torn them all away and then you fall over the edge. Yeah, it's a comfortable medium because

we probably sound like we're just being, you know, stooges for the Tradfai world right now. And obviously that doesn't work great either because the accredited investor laws box people out of investments that they probably should be able to make, particularly in the alternative space. So there's a comfortable medium. I mean, but like usual in crypto, it's either zero to a hundred is no in between. I mean, I think we're just going to basically read not that there was anything wrong with crypto or dexes or anything like that. I think we're just going to rebuild what trad vi has built.

So we're going to have market wide circuit breakers probably or even exchange wide circuit breakers. we will eventually have some notion of a clearinghouse and, you know, something like that, like some, you know, maintenance margin that's a bit more dynamic. Like, you know, these structures that exist, I think we will just rebuild that. And people will make fun of crypto people for doing that. But that's kind of what has to happen. Yeah.

I was out in Amsterdam this week at the Theta event, which was a great event, as usual. I was talking to someone about CLS, the FX netting service that exists in TradFi. It's a bank that just does these foreign exchange settlements. And if you think about it, something like that would be tremendously beneficial to the stable coin market, just from a capital intensity perspective. But it could take like 15 years for crypto to realize that that's a good market structure and eventually get there. And these things are, they tend to be mutually owned. And so we're also at a stage in crypto.

Where are these venues and are the custodians, actually the custodians that will be around in 20 years? Probably not. There's going to be a lot of consolidation, a lot of M&A. So I think some of this market structure will just take a long time because historically, it's big institutions that push for these central kind of community-owned, so to speak, infrastructures, like the DTC and CLS and Swift. But some of these things would be quite useful in the context of cryptocurrency. Yeah, I guess here I am pushing for, you know, market structure innovations and we haven't even segregated custody in exchange. Right. Well, that'll be a big battle at some point, right? Like this, I don't think that we'll have that battle for the next three or four years. But at some point in the future, I mean, Gary Gensler is going to come after that. He would, if Gary Gensler was around for four more years, I would bet I would have bet anything that he would go after Coinbase and say you need to break away your custody and trading business. So there was other news aside from the crypto market inexplicably collapsing spectacularly.

Very interestingly, the US government has seized or attempting to seize 15 billion in Bitcoin tied to a pig-bicturing scam in Asia, which these bitcoins were lost by victims, but the U.S. is not as far as I understand endeavoring to return the cash to the victims of the scam. Well, I don't know how this is going to work. And first of all, this is a crazy story. So they're alleging that this Chinese national was basically, he was keeping people hostage in these compounds in Cambodia where all they would do all day is try to scam people.

So you're getting these like SMS messages all day and fake emails, fishing. And everyone just sort of assumes that it's North Korea. But it looks like a lot of this was coming out of Cambodia of all places. and these hostels of people that are basically slaves to this Chinese guy it looks like. What a crazy story. Yeah, I mean, it's not just scamming, it's human trafficking. It's what Amnesty International says, over 50 scamming compounds in Southeast Asia run by Chinese criminal gangs. And then the ultimate, you know, victim, there's many different victims.

The ultimate victim are basically Westerners that are getting scammed out of Bitcoin and romance scams. This is wild. I mean, so the guy's name is Chen Z. He's also known as Vincent, which I'll just go by Vincent. That's a lot easier, I guess. But the, I mean, 38-year-old Chinese emigre. He's renounced his Chinese citizenship. Since 2015, he's been the founder and chairman of something called the Prince Group, which operates dozens of businesses across 30 different countries. On the surface, there are real estate development and financial service. is affirmed. However, in secret, they're one of Asia's largest transnational criminal organizations, and they have these compounds in Cambodia where they take people into forced labor or slavery to do these pig-butchering scams. What a crazy story this is. Yeah, and pig-bitchering, in case you're not familiar, it doesn't have anything to do pigs. It's basically a romance scam where you, quote-unquote, fatten someone up. You, you know, you've probably gotten these text messages. It's like someone sends you a selfie and it's like, hey, Lisa, are we still on for the party tonight or something?

It's like, well, this isn't directed to me, but it actually is directed at you. And what they want you to say is like, no, you got the wrong number. And then they say, well, maybe we can be friends anyway. And then, you know, you develop kind of a relationship with this, you know, this person. And, you know, I can see how it could happen. Maybe if you're a bit older. And, and then you know, they end up asking you for money. And that's, that's what pig butchering is. So it does make me think that every communications medium we have has been completely corrupted. And it's not going to be the default in the future to have, you know, open broadcast mediums that like email or phone calls or text messages that just let anyone contact you.

Yeah. I think that's paradigm is just obsolete. Like we just have to move on from. that. I mean, even think about like the phone book. We used to obviously have phone books growing up. You had the yellow pages for commercial enterprises. Then you had the white pages for people's houses. And you used to just be able to look it up by street address in your hometown and what the phone number was. And then my hometown actually had this record of who lived at every house and what their employment was, which is crazy to think about. Like what? But you know, you couldn't just get that, right? I mean, there was some

costs associated we get in. So like if you had the phone book, presumably you lived in the neighborhood. Right. So there's already kind of like some presumed trust underlying that information. Right. I think everyone could get it though. I'm sure you could just go to time. Yeah. Yeah. But that's the thing. Like there used to be a cost associated being international phone call. Right. Yeah. Now these barriers have come down. I think we're going to re-erect digital geographic barriers. So China already did this, right? Like China has their own internet. We're going to start to do this. We're going to do the splinternet where if someone wants to reach you, there has to be some proof that they're human or prior bond of trust or social proof that they're

human. I think this is going to be the innovation that people are just going to demand this for the next phase of communications networks. Well, this is Adam Backs thing with hash cash, right? So his original idea there was to have a payment be required if someone wanted to send you an email and you could almost configure that payment. Like a random email that I don't know if it wants to get to my inbox has to pay me $5. Like that was his idea, which I think is a good one. You could imagine something like that being implemented at wide scale.

The problem is though that that just mean like if you think about KAC, you know, to LTV, like if someone determines that you're a rich target for a scam, they might be willing to pay up a lot. Yeah. And up front. So I think we're just moving towards kind of like these like web of trust PGP models. I don't know if people are going to adopt that. But I don't think this paradigm works as evidenced by the fact that pig book during is like a $20 billion a year industry.

I mean, what's going on? So I hope the U.S. actually gets a handle on this Bitcoin, because talk about the Bitcoin reserve, $15 billion out there. I don't know what it's going to take to seize these, though. Well, it should go back to the victims, but I don't know if we were able to do that detailed accounting. That's going to be hard to prove, I suppose, but that could end up just sitting in the treasury if they get their hands on that. Speaking of treasury operations, people were making a big deal out of this story. Paxos mistakenly minted $300 trillion worth of

PYUSD, PayPal StableCoin. They promptly burned it. It wasn't like they actually had $300 trillion in circulation here. So, I mean, fast figure out. Like, not a big deal. It really isn't.

And everybody, this is like a tough week for stable coins. Like everybody from TradFai was like claiming that Athena was depeging based on the price on a single exchange. I mean, there was no, market wide deep bag and then everybody's attacking Paxos for this I mean like fat fingers happen

in every asset class everywhere yeah so this is not like this was exploitable or anything no it's like the it's the liability count in their internal database which is represented on the blockchain but the blockchain is not the ledge of record it's their own database this is what people don't understand about stable coins um you know had too many zeros so then they immediately fix it. I just like I don't get the brouhaha around this. I don't either. I don't either. All right. I want to talk about this OCC thing. So big news this week. So the first OCC approval during the Gould version of the OCC, Jonathan Gould, who's now in charge of OCC, has approved Erebor Bank, which is business that we're investor to, we are investors in, rather. So this is the first one through

the gate. And this is the new framework for going federal in the stable coin category. So Arabor is a bank. We also see Anchorage has already gone this path, but then the path was closed. You see Fidelity and Ripple have also applied. Stripe has applied for this license. And I think it's amazing that this is actually starting to get approved. I actually did a talk in Amsterdam just around how incumbents will react to this industry. And one of the things I've been really worried about just how the banks will react. I think you see this view in the crypto industry that Elizabeth Warren is public enemy number one. But I actually think the bank lobby is who we should be worried about the most here because you have these trade organizations that represent the bankers. So the American Bankers Association,

the America Credit Union Group, the Consumer Bankers Association, CBA, you have the Independent Community Bankers of America, all these groups that no one's ever heard of, they're writing these letters to Congress and to the OCC. and they're basically threatening to sue the OCC about putting up this new framework that allows for startups to go the OCC path and actually do financial services at a federal level. And obviously what they're worried about is deposit flight and losing their grip on payments

because you're going to see a lot of deposit flight, I think, from these regional banks into stable coins because you're going to find ways to pay them yield. Even if you look at the most recent letter that the Bank Policy Institute wrote to the end, SEC, which was on September 18th of this year, they expressly asked the SEC not to expand the definition of qualified custody. They want to box out the state chartered banks. They want to prohibit self-custody. So I think the banks are really threatened. And these are not empty

threats. So if you look back when, do you remember when the fintech charter was a thing under the Trump one? There's this proposal to create a fintech charter, which kind of looks a lot like what is happening now. It's not called the fintech charter anymore. But the conference of state supervisors of banks, the CSBS, they sued the SEC in 2017, 2018, and 2020 to stop this fintech charter. And then the bank lobby was actually able to get the NYDFS to come in and sue the OCC. And they initially actually won in federal court in 2019 before that case was dismissed in 2021 on procedural grounds. But by then, the fintech charter was kind of dead already. So I think you're going to see the banks sue the SEC here, is kind of my view.

But I'm incredibly happy, obviously, that Aribor got through. I think that this is, I mean, this is obviously huge. Yeah. But I think the fight's just beginning. Yeah, I guess the bank lobby is not, the bank lobby might have a point of view, but the bank sector is not homogenous. So there will be crypto forward banks like Erebor, and then there will be the banks that do deposit tokens. I think you have all of it. And then some banks are just fear and hate

staple coins. But yeah, we're, as you said, we're investors in Erebor. We're very excited. Four months from application to preliminary approval, very fast. And more than just the case of this particular company, this is a new era. We are in a new era now where new banks can be created in this country, which is so exciting. We've been in a deficit of banks for 15 years since Dodd-Frank, and we're finally turning the corner. And it's not just airborne. We're restoring competitiveness to the banking sector.

If you shut off the issuance of new banks, you just vastly empower the incumbents. You reduce the dynamism of the sector. So if you like markets, this is good news for everyone. Yeah. People came up to me after and asked me some follow-up questions on this talk. around, hey, you're saying Elizabeth Warren is tight with the banks. She doesn't like the banks, though. I'm like, no, she wants the big banks to be the winners here because federal government has such a line into these big banks in terms of financial surveillance and ability to actually

influence those businesses, that from her perspective, it's easier to just have the economy run through those institutions because they're almost quasi-federalized in terms of how much regulatory oversight they have. It's all about the surveillance. Yeah, I mean, if you want to utilize these big financial institutions as nexus of control for your agenda, whether it's climate, social, equity, surveillance, et cetera, you want there to be a small, concentrated group. So she's not against the banks in general. She's against diversity of banks. She wants her to be few banks so they can exert, you know, a choke point style campaign. Yeah, yeah. So I, I can't tell you how excited I was to see that Gould actually went through with this because I'm sure he was getting a ton of heat.

And the government is not even open. So apparently the OCC was open, which was the other thing. Wow, good for them working without pay. I guess. I don't know. Maybe they're, hopefully they are getting paid. It's very unclear to me who gets paid and who doesn't get paid when the government's shut down. Yeah, having looked into it, it's only a very small portion of like the federal budget that's not still in operation.

I mean, most of the government expenditures are still occurring. So I guess it's only the not, what is it, the discretionary portion. And even within that, it's not the whole. So. I don't know. I landed late last night at Logan International and got straight through passport control. Air traffic working. It was great.

Yeah. TSA working. Do you have this global entry thing? Yeah, of course. I mean, that is a magical thing. Yeah, I mean, the requirement for just being a human in today's world is TSA pre and clear, frankly, and global entry. Yeah, you just give away all your, I mean, they already have all your personal information anyway. Yeah, the government has my biometrics. I, you know, I gave them that when I became a citizen.

That's, that's given, the game's given up. These global entries, great. They just snap a picture of you and you walk past them. It's unbelievable. Love it. Love it. I know. Yeah, so the government's still working. The shutdown is, basically fake. I mean, who, what's shut down? Nothing is shut down. I don't know. Most things seem to be open to me, but we got to get back to work here in Congress. That's where we need some people to actually push some bills through. And oh, actually interesting news here up here in Boston. So we have two senators. Everyone knows who Elizabeth Warren is, but there's another one. His name's Ed Markey. It's not much better. And he is being primaried, actually, on the Democrat

side by a guy named Seth Moulton, who's decorated veteran, actually ran for president at one point. And while being a Democrat, he is a huge proponent of crypto. He voted for the genius bill, voted for the market structure bill in the House. He's currently in Congress. So it's exciting. Does he have a chance, do you think? I think, yeah, I think he probably has a chance. I mean, Markey's been in office forever.

This is one of these guys that's like 80 years old. he's been a politician for like 40 years. But Moulton's got some fresh ideas. Yeah, so Markey will be 80 when he runs this year. He'd be 86 at the end of his next term. I mean, how is there even, how does anybody consider that ordinary that you might have someone to be 86 in an important senatorial role?

You know, and you think like, why would you want to do it? But then on the other hand, you're like, well, hey, look, If you can be 86 and have that amount of power, like you wouldn't give it up, I suppose. No, maybe not. But the average age in Congress has crept up. And I don't understand why that is. Is that just a reflective societal demographics, too? I don't know.

It's hard for incumbents to lose in some of these races just based on the money, right? Like they get the advantage of raising all the money there. Once you're in power, you can start doing favors for people. So it's structurally difficult to be an incumbent. then we keep an eye on this one molten is 46 it's you know it's funny how liking this industry just understanding this industry isn't necessarily a partisan thing sometimes it's just an age thing so last piece before we have to go bridge has filed for a national bank bridge of course the subsidiary of stripe they filed for a trust charter in order to provide regulated stable coin

issuance management and custody services Yeah, I think you'll see more and more of this. Obviously going this path versus going state by state makes a ton of sense. All right, so I think that is it for the week. Thanks for bearing with us with a late episode. We'll be back with a few more podcast episodes next week. Everybody have a safe and healthy weekend.