On with Kara Swisher - Are You “Dying of Politeness”? Geena Davis Explains.

Episode Date: January 9, 2023

Geena Davis became a breakout star in Hollywood, with an Oscar under her belt and starring roles in hit films like “A League of Their Own” and “Thelma & Louise.” Yet even all that success didn’t always protect her from feeling small in Hollywood. In this episode, we visit her memoir, “Dying of Politeness,” and Davis opens up about moments in her life and career when she felt too polite to speak up. Decades later, many of these moments remain raw. Before and after the episode, Kara and Nayeema reflect on their own personal experiences, talk about the tax that women pay and discuss how Hollywood, Silicon Valley and other powerful industries have changed — and how they haven’t.  You can find Kara Swisher and Nayeema Raza on Twitter @karaswisher and @nayeema. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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This is On with Kara Swisher, and I'm Kara Swisher. And I'm Neha Marazza. I have no response to that whole thing. What a mess. Jesus. It's kind of sad because there's, you know, in the time that we're taping this, how many rounds has it been now? Nine, I think. Nine? Something like that. Whatever. It's a lot. It's a lot. But Congress can't get work done. A lot of work hinges on the speaker. And the crazy thing is, it doesn't even require you to be a member of the Congress. To be, yeah. Yep. Absolutely. I mean, that's the thing. I mean, anybody's, I mean, that was last

night, Stephanie Ruhle interviewed Lauren Boebert, which just to watch Stephanie's face was, I took multiple pictures of her face and various expressions, but she was saying, you know, Stephanie said, why don't you nominate Kim Kardashian? And she was like, well, we could. Like, it was so weird. It was so fucked up. But you know, whatever. The political scene is so, it's stranger than fiction. That's all I have to say. Well, Elon says that Kevin McCarthy should be the speaker. Well, then it's settled if Elon wants it. I mean, that's probably the kiss of fucking death for him, but whatever. Okay, sure. What's nice is to watch Trump back away from him slowly toward the exit. He used to be my Kevin.

Now he's like, oh, that guy. That guy. I don't know him. I don't know him. toward the exit. He used to be my Kevin. Now he's like, oh, that guy. That guy. I don't know him. I don't know him. Never heard him. Speaking of fiction, our guest today specializes in it, creating it on screens.

Gina Davis is the star of so many films, Thelma and Louise, Beetlejuice, and my personal favorite, League of Their Own, the original one with Rosie O'Donnell and Madonna. Right, exactly. And also The Accidental Tourist, for which she won the Oscar. You know, she's a really interesting actress. And you can't conceive of how big a star Geena Davis was back during this time.

She did a lot of stuff all at once. But League of Their Own, obviously, was the one people know her most for. Are you watching the new League of Their Own, by the way? I did. I watched the entire thing in one sitting because it is so gay, I didn't know what to do with it. It was such a, it was an entire, it was a lesbian drama. It was, that's all it was. Everybody was gay in it.

It was, Rosie O'Donnell, by the way, was in it being gay. Oh, really? And looking very natty in a suit, dressed like a dude. The original one was not gay. Not, well, no, that's the problem because I think the character that Geena Davis played was in real life gay. Oh, and they covered up. And they covered up. I mean, come on.

Who's playing baseball? It's usually quite a few ladies who like ladies. What's next on your gay watch list? Oh, I don't know. I was so gay, I almost was like, get me to the straights again. Oh, excellent. And here you are with a straight girl taping in her closet. Okay.

Geena Davis has a new memoir out. It's called Dying of Politeness, something you would know nothing about. Nothing about dying of politeness. And she talks broadly about her career. And she also shares these moments, I think in a really vulnerable way, shares these moments and inflection points in her career when she didn't speak up when something bad happened, when she was too polite. Yeah. She shares stories of co-stars who behave badly. In some cases, she says really, really badly.

We're going to ask her about Bill Murray. She has alleged he harassed and intimidated her on the set of the film Quick Change. Murray has not responded to Davis's allegations, but we should note that many people have come forward with their own stories of his misconduct, including Jenny Chase, Seth Green, Angelica Houston, to name a few. And it's pretty, it sounds like just an asshole. Yeah, there are so many new stories in this memoir. It makes you think about kind of holding them in for decades. Yeah. Yeah, I think a lot of actors, women actors,

are sort of suffer in silence. You know, it happened during the sort of period when Ellen Powe in Silicon Valley was telling her story in court about what happened to her at Kleiner Perkins. And I couldn't go anywhere without someone telling me a story like that. It was amazing, including some very powerful women. And I was like, what? And people just keep it in. People just tuck it away and say, you know, forget it.

But I think that the times are changing. And just today I was reading about this Romeo and Juliet case against Paramount. You know this case? Yeah. Yeah. This is like Leonard Whiting and Olivia Hussey, who starred in a 1968 film, Romeo and Juliet, by Franco Zeffirelli. I remember seeing it. Have you seen it? Oh, sure. Oh, I haven't seen that film. Lots of people have seen it. They showed it in school for us. Yeah. Thank you. They said they were 17 and 16 at the time. They alleged that the rules were changed on them last minute, and they had to film the scene nude that they didn't expect to film nude. So, yeah, they're suing Paramount for $500 million coming up after so many years

because California had temporarily opened up a look-back window for victims of child sexual abuse, basically lifting the statute of limitations. New York had a similar window. Zeffirelli is dead, so they're suing the studio. Said they should have known that he was doing this. Apparently he said the movie wouldn't work if they were promised they could wear stockings and the stuff they do. Now they have all these people, these essentially safety people on set when they're doing sex scenes.

Yeah, intimacy coordinators. So, you know, they didn't do that then, and so the director could pressure actors, and they're so powerless. Actors are really powerless in those relationships. And so it's a really interesting issue. I had a really interesting discussion with my sons about Brooke Shields, actually, this Christmas.

Oh. I was trying to explain the movies. One was Blue Lagoon, where she was- Then she did Pretty Baby. Pretty Baby. And then Nothing Comes Between Me and Mike Halvins. And I was like, everyone knew there was something wrong with it at the time, but it wasn't like Taxi Driver, where it's clear Jodie Foster's a victim, right?

It was like uncomfortable, like Pretty Baby particularly. Yeah, she plays a child prostitute. She was 12 years old then, I think. Yeah, and that goes to the parents. It goes to a lot of things, I have to say. I saw Brooke recently, Brooke Shields, and she has this documentary coming out at Sundance, actually. It's called Pretty Baby, Brooke Shields Story or something like that.

I mean, it's a riff on the's called Pretty Baby, Brooke Shield's story or something like that. I mean, it's a riff on the name of Pretty Baby. She was so early in this hyper-sexualization of young women. Yeah, 100%. And what's happening with this and the Paramount case, I mean, it's all like what we were okay with then or what was able to happen then. We're now reevaluating it and saying, what are our new norms as a society? What's changed and what's not? Yeah. So this is why it's interesting to talk to Gina Davis. You don't need a reason to talk to Gina Davis, but she's so intelligent and she tells these stories with such empathy and kindness that it's really, it's great to hear her. Let's take a quick break. And when we come back, we'll have our interview with Gina Davis. When you picture an online scammer, what do you see? For the longest time, we have these images of somebody sitting crouched over their computer with a hoodie on, just kind of typing away in the middle of the night.

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Let's start with your work. I know everyone talks about Thelma and Louise, a league of their own, Beetlejuice, but I love Cutthroat Island. I know everyone talks about Thelma and Louise, A League of Their Own, Beetlejuice, but I love Cutthroat Island. I really, seriously, Jo. You were a pirate in that movie. You played a pirate lady. I was a pirate captain, yes. Yes, a pirate captain, and it was quite good. I really enjoyed it. So just so you know, I know everyone else talks about the others, and we'll talk about the others,

but I want to put in a fan thing for Cutthroat Island. Anyway, your new book is called Dying of Politeness. And it's a story of what you call your journey to badassery. So I want to start by talking about that journey. Because a lot of the beginning of the book, especially, is about how you're unusually polite and, in fact, to the point of negativity towards you. Right. Well, I was sort of raised to be a person who has no needs. Right. You know, that I don't need anything from you. Right. Well, I was sort of raised to be a person who has no needs, who has, you know, that I don't need anything from you. I don't cause anybody any problem or trouble or extra effort. And I go along with everything. I never say no. And, you know, that proved to be incredibly

difficult as I grew up. I think the point partially was that everybody has to like you. And so whatever that takes, whatever sacrifices you have to make point partially was that everybody has to like you. And so whatever that takes, whatever sacrifices you have to make to make sure that everybody likes you. Yeah. So what dying of politeness is a really kind of interesting juxtaposition. Can you talk about why you, does it kill you or that it just that you sacrifice yourself for others? Well, I called it dying of politeness in a sort of humorous way because I almost did die of, literally die from politeness when I was, I talk about it in the book, but when I was about eight years old, I was in the car with my parents and my... Bad driving uncle, is that right? Or bad driving grandparent? the front. And it was at night, we were driving home to their house. And he kept veering into the

oncoming lane, like slowly drifting into the oncoming lane and then back. And nobody said anything. And thankfully, the road was very empty. But eventually, a car started coming. And there was nowhere, it's a very skinny road, nowhere for anybody to pull over, and nobody said anything. And we were going to have a head-on collision, and at the last second, my great-aunt said, a little to the right, Jack, and he swerved just in time to avoid hitting the car. So, I realized later that my parents would have died rather than say anything that old Uncle Jack might take offense to. And me. And let me die, too. Right. I would have screamed at Uncle Jack in two seconds. Yeah, exactly.

So let's talk a little bit about your career, because I think it's a thematic thing through your career, which I think is not uncommon to actors, women actors. First food roles, you broke in the scene 40 years ago in Tootsie, I think. That was the first one that you saw you in. And you played kind of an ingenue, wore a lot of underwear and things like that. So take us back to that time of landing your first role, because it was such a—I love that movie, by the way. It's a tremendous movie. But paint a picture of what it was like back then. me into acting and uh and it led me to get an audition uh for this movie and they said um my

agent said they want you to wear a bathing suit under your clothes because if you read well they want to see you in a bathing suit the role is going to call for being in in your underwear sometimes so i did and then i went and read and it was just with the casting assistant and a video camera and she didn't ask to see me in my bathing suit. So I figured, I put it completely out of my mind. I mean, what were the odds I was going to get cast in a movie with Dustin Hoffman, you know? But I ended up getting the part. And it was amazing. It was like the best introduction to business that I could possibly ever have had, because Sidney Pollack, you know, possibly ever have had because Sidney Pollack, you know, was an unmatched director. Yeah. And Dustin decided he wanted to mentor me for the career he was sure that I would have. And also,

I made a rookie mistake by coming to the set every day. I didn't know that you were supposed to only come on the days when you were working. I thought everybody must come on it every day and nobody told me not to. So I learned so much from being on the set every day. Did you think about the part you were playing? Because it was a very typical part, you know, this sort of dumb ditzy woman who shows off her boobs all the time, essentially. No, I know. I mean, I had no problem with that role. It's a small part, but you can't tell that much. She's kind of feisty. A fan asked her, what's going to happen next for my character?

And I said, I don't know. I don't write this shit, you know. And no, I had no problem with it. So when you were in that role, it wasn't the lead role, but soon after you did a series of movies. But Beetlejuice was really where you were noticed, I think. Oh, you know what? Well, actually, The Fly was the first thing that I really got more noticed for. Oh, right. Yes, The Fly. Which is an incredibly dramatic role.

It was a horror movie, but we took the characters and their plight very seriously. And it was just remarkable to be able to have a big fat lead role like that and have such respect for the material and work with Cronenberg, who's, you know, a real auteur, was incredible. And then Beetlejuice, yeah, was super fun. I read that script and then I had a meeting with Tim Burton and I said, I get this movie. Listen, I just get this movie. And he said later that he hired me because he felt like he didn't get the movie, and it would be handy to have someone on the set who did.

So it was really interesting about it. As I was sort of looking over your career, Beetlejuice was in 1988, and then you were in The Accidental Tourist, which you won an Oscar for. Right. And I think you followed it up pretty quickly after winning this Academy Award for that role with Thelma and Louise, which I think you're probably still most known for, although maybe A League of Their Own is maybe the one that people remember too. Even though you were playing these strong women, you talked a lot about being sort of acquiescent.

But you said everything changed for you after. I'd like for you being sort of acquiescent. But you said everything changed for you, Afnubi. I'd like for you to sort of, what do you think it represented? And then what does it represent to you as an actor? Right. Well, I had probably the good fortune to play characters who were tougher than I was in real life. And it was fun. It was really wonderful to try on those kinds of characters and be bold in ways that I wouldn't in my real life. And it was really meeting and working with Susan Sarandon that had the biggest impact on me. And that was because she was somebody like you, I think, who says what she thinks and knows what she thinks and is very comfortable in her body and moving through the world. And I realized later I'd never spent extended time with any woman who was like that, who just, you know, not confrontationally or anything, but just simply said what she thought. And it was like a three month long training camp in how to be like that, because I took it upon myself to want to become

like her. And it was so valuable to spend that time with her and learn who I wanted to be like, what I wanted to be like. And your character was like that. That's the evolving nature of that relationship. How do you look at that relationship now and then? What were you thinking then that that relationship should be? Yeah, so it was fast. It was so well-written, that script. She won every award there was for that script. Callie, Corey, yeah. And most of it was because about this friendship that was about women who loved each other and cared about each other and occasionally drove each other nuts. But the dynamic was kind of fortuitously for me that

Thelma idolizes Louise and looks up to her and also is able to be a flake and not responsible for herself because she knows Louise will pick up the slack and take care of her. And events of the film force that to change to the point where we actually, for a moment, switch roles where I take over and take care of her. And it's a beautiful dance between these characters. And do you think it holds up today? I mean, it was one of the first movies where women carry the whole movie in terms of a big hit. Where the other characters, whether it's Brad Pitt, terms of a big hit, where the other characters, whether it's Brad Pitt, who plays a small role, actually. One of the things I didn't realize, which was funny, was the people who tried out for that role are all big stars now, George Clooney,

and you didn't even remember him trying out with him, correct? No, the fact is that he wasn't a famous person yet. Yes, yes. No, none of them were. No, it was Mark Ruffalo. And who was the other one? Grant Show. Grant Show, right. From Melrose Place. Right.

How does it hold up today from your point of view? Oh, it completely holds up in my view. Susan and I have seen it together probably about every five years when it's the 20th anniversary, 25th, 30th. So we just saw it for the 30th last summer. And to us, it really held up into the audience. It really did. And I mean, the fact that it's so important in people's minds 30 years later just says

something about the story that just really, really speaks to people. Why do you think that is? Well, I think it's because, and it also has to do with the fact that they kill themselves at the end, that they drive off the cliff. Allegedly, but go ahead. Some people don't think that. Yeah, no, exactly. It's a metaphor. But the movie is about women who take control of their own lives, and they retain it no matter what. They will be in charge of their lives no matter what, in other words, to the end, rather than give it up and surrender their power back to somebody else, to society. And so I think that's what really spoke to people because at

first I was like, wow, how is it that people come out of a movie where the lead characters off themselves going, yeah, we're so empowered. But but that's why. That's why. Go. You sure? Yeah. Yeah. What's your relationship with Susan?

Have those lessons she taught you stuck with you, do you think? Well, shooting the movie, I thought, you know, I have really come a long way. I've, you know, I've really... Badass. Badass, exactly. And then immediately found out that I wasn't when I started shooting League of Their Own. I fell into really ingrained old habits and all that. But now I was aware of doing it.

Anytime I gave up my power, I was aware of doing it and worked on that. So let's talk about that. This was Dottie Hinson, who's a very strong woman, star baseball player, older sister of another baseball player. The famous line, of course, there's no crying in baseball, Tom Hanks. It was directed by a woman, Penny Marshall. Talk about why you think it's iconic and what happened to you from coming off of a huge hit,

Thelma & Louise, to another hit. Well, it was really remarkable because it's powerful enough to be a part of a movie that becomes a cultural landmark. You know, it was, like, incredible. And then the very next movie to do the same thing with people coming up to me and saying, I play sports because of that movie or whatever. And also the press predicted about both of those movies that now everything was going to

change. We're going to see so many movies starring women now. And that's a given. And I'm just thinking, all right, I can't wait to see all that happen. And it didn't. That was really a shocking wake-up. Yeah, because it's the same thing with Black Panther or anything else. Now it's going to be more and more of these. So in this movie, what's the most memorable scene for you in the movie? I kind of like the whole segment where we first appear. We show up to the tryouts.

Okay, girls, this is it. Harvey Field. Tryouts. My character's so tough and cool, you know, and not thrown by anything. Get out there, show them what you got. Don't embarrass me. It's been a thin slice

of heaven. I pretended to myself that I was Gary Cooper to have that feeling, you know, that feeling of like quiet confidence. This was a movie that showed women playing sports and being athletes. Why hasn't there been another one like that? There's a lot of really interesting characters, whether it's basketball players, Sue Bird or Megan Rapinoe and all kinds of things. Why do you imagine there hasn't been one since? Oh, you know, that's the craziest thing, because I talked to Kelly Query a few years after the movie came out, and she said a friend of hers who was a writer had gone into a studio to pitch an idea for a movie, and it happened to have two female lead characters, but nothing else about it was anything like Thelma and Louise. And they turned it down saying,

there's already been Thelma and Louise. Oh, wow. Like, not only are we not going to, we're not going to do any movies about women, because there's been a movie about women. Yeah, there can be only one. It's my Highlander quote. There can be only one. Yes, exactly. But one big part of representation in the media is the barriers women have overcome about not just recognition, but also experiences. You talked about being acquiescent on the set,

and your story about Bill Murray was fascinating. There was harassment issues from Jack Nicholson, but the incidents were more with Bill Murray. You call them awful and devastating. Talk a little bit about this because it's a lot about diminishing you or making you behave. You kept talking about this idea. Explain what he made you do. Right. So I went to meet with Bill Murray and his co-director and a producer in a hotel suite. And I came in and went to sit down with everybody sitting there. But Bill Murray popped up and said, hey, have you ever tried the Thumper? And I'm like, what? This year, this was what year?

What year was this? This is, I want to say 89? Okay. Okay. Maybe. Something like that. And no, what's that? Well, come try it. Come try it.

No, no, no. I'm just laughing and trying to sit down. No, no, no, no, no. Come, come. It's this, and he'd point, there's a giant massage device on the bed with big handles on it. And he says, lay down here. I want to try it on you. And I'm like, no, no, no, thank you. And he keeps at it. He keeps at it. And I keep saying no to the point

where I would have had to scream at him. Stop fucking asking me. I am not doing it. Do you understand? Which I was far too timid to do. So I perched on the corner of the bed and let him do it. And he did it for like one second, like, and then didn't ask how I liked it or anything. It was just to, and I, so I realized it was just to see if he could force me to do something

inappropriate. And the other men in the room did nothing, correct? They did nothing. No. And I looked to them hoping they would say, come on, Bill,

give it up or something. But, but they didn't. And I found out that it was because I had just won the Oscar, and he had said he was told the others that he was very concerned about hiring me in case I thought I was all that, you know, in case I had a swelled head from that. And so that was his first test. And evidently I passed. And then the first day of shooting, we were shooting a huge scene out on an intersection in Manhattan with hundreds of extras and giant crew and all that stuff. And they asked, they said, we're ready for you to come to set. And I said, well, costumes asked me to wait here one second.

Can I do that or should I come with you? And he said, no, no, no. AD said, no, go ahead, wait here. And then seconds later, Bill Murray, in a full clown costume, by the way, slams into the trailer with rage coming out of his eyeballs and starts screaming at me and swearing at me, get the fuck out there, what the fuck are you doing? Move, move. And he got behind me and screamed in my ear,

move, move faster, move it. And we're getting to this intersection where there's hundreds of people watching this and he keeps it up and keeps it up until we he says stand there and points to a mark on the pavement and starts shooting and uh and i was literally like shaking and uh he elbowed me after a few takes and said what's up with you come on come on. It's all good. He got you in line. He got you in line. That's what he was trying to do. And the point was, it wasn't necessary.

You know, it wasn't like an urgent matter for me to go there. I learned that it wasn't. But he got the opportunity to really put me in my place and really shame me. So, just so people know, Bill Murray's been accused of a lot of inappropriate behavior. Solange Knowles allegedly grabbed her hair, Lucy Liu. There's lots and lots of, and recently he's been pulled off of something. When you think about that, go ahead, sorry, go ahead. Sorry. Go ahead. I was going to say, but it's still, just talking about it actually still, it's very emotional for me because I felt so ashamed, you didn't, my, sorry. That's okay.

My agent and my manager came that day to take me to lunch. You know, fun, yay, you're starting the movie, take me to lunch. And I didn't tell them. And I never told anybody until I wrote the book. And it's just a shame that I took on blame for that happening. Yeah. You know, one of the things, and I'm so sorry, don't be so hard on yourself. It's very hard to, unless you're particularly aggressive, to be aggressive back at that kind of thing. It's like getting mugged. It's not your fault that you got mugged, right? That's essentially. And I think

one of the issues, if it's not explicit sexual harassment, people think, oh, it's just yelling. It's the same thing. It's the same abuse. It's the same control. You know, sexual harassment is not about sex. It's about control. It's about putting people in their place. And it's about power. Yeah. We'll be back in a minute. Grammarly. 88% of the work week is spent communicating, typing, talking, and going back and forth on topics until everyone is on the same page. It's time for a change. It's time for Grammarly. Grammarly's AI ensures your team gets their points across the first time, eliminating misunderstandings and streamlining collaboration. It goes beyond basic grammar to help tailor writing to specific audiences,

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Time's Up had a lot of momentum and everyone was wearing white and this and that, but then it falls apart. Lots of reasons, including a relationship with Governor Cuomo that shouldn't have happened. What do women in Hollywood do to make this continue, or do you think the lesson of Me Too has been learned? Well, Me Too lives on. I mean, the ethos of Me Too definitely still lives on, and I think women are much more likely to feel entitled to talk about injustices that happened to them. And, you know, I don't know if you ever saw it. I executive produced a documentary called This Changes Everything. And it's about exactly this stuff about women's treatment in Hollywood. And Chloe Grace Moretz talking about at 15, having the production put what he called breast pads in her trailer to wear when she's 15 years old. And so women,

you know, came out in droves to talk about their experiences with that kind of stuff. Yeah. All right. So one of the things you did, which other people didn't do, you founded the Gina Davis Institute on Gender and Media, which researches gender representation in media. It's something I do know about, the stuff you were doing, which is really, when I heard about it, I was like, that's fascinating.

It advocates for equal representation of women in Hollywood on screen. Why did you do it this way? And what was your thinking of creating this? It was my two-year-old daughter. I sat down for the first time with her to show her a preschool show. And within five minutes or so, I'm thinking, how many female characters are in this? And I Google it and look it up, and it was wildly imbalanced, like profoundly wildly

imbalanced. And then I saw it in other movies for kids and videos and TV shows, and I thought, so we're training kids from minute one to have gender bias because we're showing worlds that are dominated by male characters, and they have more to do, and there's more of them. The Smurfs is a good example. It's only one woman Smurf. There's 99 males and one woman. Yes, and they all have different characteristics, and the woman has one. One of the things I noticed when I was watching with my sons was that what they would watch initially when they were younger, and then later, very soon after, when they were five or six, my son used to like the Disney princess stuff, right?

And then he didn't. And this is two lesbians raising kids in San Francisco. You think there might be some level of interest in some, not gay, but just like more representation kind of stuff. And it was really quite shocking how quickly it happens because all the girls would watch the boys' movies. Yes, yes, exactly. Well, there was this theory in Hollywood that men and boys won't watch women and girls, but women and girls will watch anything. So we don't have to worry about the female characters because they'll watch whatever it is. What I realized was I started asking people in my daily life in Hollywood whenever I had meetings with people, I'd say,

have you ever noticed how few female characters there are in entertainments made for kids? And every single person said, oh, no, no, that's not true anymore. That's been fixed. And they were very serious about it. They were like, here, we care about girls so much. We do everything we can to really, and like one person said, well, we made Shrek where there's one female character. Like they thought if there's one important female character, you've covered women. So anyway, so then I realized this is utterly unconscious from the onscreen stuff. It's unconscious. They don't realize they're doing it. So if I got the data, I, because I'm in the industry, I could go directly to the creators and share it with them privately and say, look, I know you don't know this, but this is how few

female characters there are. And they were horrified. They were stunned. They all immediately said, oh my God, what are we doing? Why would we do that? We want to be good for kids. What are we doing? And so the numbers started changing pretty fast. Have they changed now? Have we reached parity? There's certainly a lot of girl-focused shows on TV. Well, we've definitely seen tremendous improvement.

In 2019, we reached parity in the lead characters of family-rated films. in the lead characters of family-rated films. And in kids' TV, children's shows, we reached parity in the lead characters in the next year, in 2020. It's definitely gotten much, much better. Let me talk about you yourself. Your next role is in a movie called Pussy Island, kind of an interesting title.

I think it's meant as a joke, but explain what's the story behind the title and what you're doing in it. So Zoe Kravitz's first directing job, and she co-wrote it, and Channing Tatum is the male lead character. And he's a very wealthy, successful businessman who takes a bunch of friends and some girls to his resort island. It's actually sort of a thriller. When I first heard the title and hadn't read it, I was like, well, this is going to be some romp of, you know, sexy gals on an island or something, I'm his assistant, and I'm very spacey and clumsy. I'm always dropping things, and I fall in the pool, and very strange behavior, and it's only later in the mystery part of it that we find out why. So, it's a juicy role for you, so to speak.

Yeah, it is. So, one of the things you talked about in the book, a bit in the book, is the dilemma of the aging actor about the, you know, the uphill climb. And in the book, you talk about wanting to take out a full-page magazine ad that said, not for nothing, but I haven't retired, you know. You've been in Hollywood a long time. Right. Now, more recently, your roles have been in TV. You've been on shows like Grey's Anatomy and Glow. How do you look at how your career has developed? You have these giant movie roles. How do you look at your career right now? It's always tough to find really incredible roles. I had an amazing run of like really top roles and assumed that I was going to, that would continue to be the case. But it's just a fact that actresses over 50, data from my institute shows that they're only 5% of movie populations, unfortunately.

You said your career hit a cliff when you were in your 40s. After all these, one major hit after the next. Talk about this cliff. I have not hit a cliff. I keep getting more powerful as I get older, but that's different. Talk about this uphill climb, I guess, for lack of a better term. Right. Well, it's funny because I always say I'm waiting for the work that I'm doing at the Institute to benefit me.

Right, right, right. That's why you're doing it, right? It's all a ruse to just improve. I pretended to be, you know, magnanimous in order to help myself. But I think it's that we need a sea change in the way people think about characters and casting. What resists that? Because, you know, Harrison Ford is 80. He's going to be in 1923.

There's a new Indiana Jones coming out. Brad Pitt is sexy, right? I think he's pretty old. George Clooney, et cetera. Is there not enough depictions or is it society itself? So things that happen on screen will happen in real life. In the entertainment industry, we can't wait for something to happen in real life and then we'll reflect that. We need to make it happen on screen in fiction,

and then it will happen in real life. Images on screen are incredibly powerful toward encouraging people to want to be like the characters or, you know, respect characters that they see. And so we could absolutely change the world if we showed it on screen. So I'm very optimistic about it, that it really does have the potential to really, really change things. Yeah. So I'd like to finish up by asking you two questions. One is, what role would you like to play now? What is your dream role? Again, if you had any choice, what would you want to do?

So, I want to be in a Marvel movie, actually. What character? A villain, somebody with superpowers would be really fun. I love action movies. What would be your superpower? I don't know. I don't know. Mine would be really fun. I love action movies. What would be your superpower? I don't know. I don't know. Mine would be invisibility. Ooh.

Because I love sneaking around and finding out things. Yeah, that's true. That would be really fun. I don't know. I'd have to think about what might... You just want strength? I like to play powerful characters. Powerful characters.

And I'm just curious, I'm going to ask a question. What do you like right now? When you're looking across the entertainment spectrum, you look at these all based on gender issues and things like that, but what do you think is good right now? Something recently you've watched. I'll give one, Wakanda Forever, I thought was amazing. I did not think she would hold the movie, The Young Woman. I think it's Letitia Wright. And she did. Not just because Angela Bassett was there. She can hold any movie she feels like.

But I thought they held the movie in a way that I wish I wasn't surprised by, but I was. I was thrilled, actually. Oh, I agree with you about that one. I was just blown away. And the evolution of female characters in the Marvel Universe has been just extraordinary, been fabulous. They're very, very conscious of that and just went with it. They didn't find a new male Black Panther, you know, and it was incredible the way they did that. I loved it.

Anyway, this is a great book. I don't think you're as polite as you think you are, which is a good thing. And I don't think you're dying of it, for sure. Thank you so much. It's great talking to you. Well, that was something. I was very, that she cried was amazing over the Bill Murray situation.

I just want to know, I didn't make her cry. Bill Murray did. I felt so sad for her because- later. Yeah. So much later. And obviously, and what, you know, there was a thumper story and there was the other story of being on set and him yelling behind her, go, go, get out, get out and yelling in her ear. And I feel like that's not about, I mean, there's a gender dynamic there, but that's a power dynamic. When someone is barking in your ear for you to do something and bullying you, I mean, we've all had that experience in life. Yeah. Yeah.

It's terrible. It is. It is. And it's definitely, it's a question of what you do in the moment. I think that she's still remembering that young woman who put up with that and she's embarrassed for herself, though she should not be. And she still feels shame. And that was what that crying was about. Yeah. Dying of politeness. You and I are not so polite. No. No. I'm a little more polite than you. Well, that's interesting because listen, when I said I thought some of the problems,

you know, we talked about sort of management and different things like that. And I said, no, they're directly, you're being a young woman, a woman of color. And you were like, no, no, no, no. And I was like, a woman of color. And you were like, no, no, no, no. And I was like, absolutely. Which was interesting, which is, I found that fascinating. Well, you just were like, cause I'm irritating. I'm like, no, you're more irritating because it's coming out of your mouth versus a dude. But it's true. I think you were very quick to say that wasn't the reason. And I do not believe that for a second. I don't think other people would have been treated the way you were. I wouldn't, I do not think so. And I know it believe that for a second. I don't think other people would have been treated the way you were.

I wouldn't. I do not think so. And I know it. I see it all the time. People don't do it with me. They wouldn't dare at this point in my career. But I certainly think, I have experienced it when I was younger. Yeah, the McLaughlin group, you've written about this or talked about it.

Yeah. But I think you can't totally discount it. And that doesn't, I think you don't want to become a victim. I think that's, I'm not a victim. I can handle it, but I think you do get, you get treated less well. I just think that's the case. Yeah. But I think it's hard to know that, especially early on when you, when you start, like, I remember being really young in my career, in my first job and finding it, like I was 21 years old. There was a certain one partner at the firm I used to work at. He would always invite me to meetings with major clients,

you know, and there were five people between us in the totem pole. And I asked him once, like, why are you inviting me? And he said, you never get called out for bringing a pretty girl to a meeting. Oh, good God. I think one thing that's hard to grapple with is like, there's advantages and there's disadvantages, right? Like what that partner was saying in his like, very disgusting way was, oh yeah, there's an advantage because you look how you look and I can bring you to this thing. And that made me have to choose between being advantaged in the workplace and not taking an opportunity. And you have to make these choices that are really hard. It's a tax.

Yeah. It's a tax that women pay. It's a tax that people of color pay that you shouldn't have, that straight white men just don't pay. Yeah, the tax you pay is having to learn how to navigate those situations. And put up with that. Ugh, gross. I know. No?

Well, it's voted. It's like you have to choose. You have an opportunity, but you know that opportunity is a little bit grimy, right? It's not an opportunity like playing golf with the dude, right? Yeah, grimy is a good word. actionable event. So this was back in the late aughts, but people just, I think the culture has really, really shifted and I hope it continues to shift. Yeah, definitely. But how do you raise somebody to not be polite? How are you raising Clara? She's a spicy in your face person and I want to keep her that way. And she, listen, it's going to take a lot to squash her down, but there's going to be a lot of attempts to do so. And I'm going to be right there with her. I think she's got all the tools. And so we're going to

just keep emphasizing her forthrightness. That's all. We shall not let that happen. She knows who she is. It's really good. I'll tell a very brief story. She likes to go to the store, like you and I am and not like me. So she said she wanted to go to the store and she said, can we go to the store? And I said, yeah, absolutely. She loves to look at things and go through the store and sort of marches around very imperiously throughout a store. And so Amanda was driving her to work, to school, excuse me, and Amanda was going to work. And she said, I heard you and Mommy planned to go to the store with you. And she goes, it's my plan.

She's like, it wasn't Mama's plan. It's my plan. And so I love that. I thought that was good for her, it's my plan. Like, it wasn't mama's plan. It's my plan. And so I love that. I thought that was good for her. It's her plan. I know the day that you're talking about, because I got like two calls from you in a row and I'm like, what's up? And you said, oh, it was Clara calling you. Yeah. By accident. Yeah. I think she was calling me for help because she was in a store with you, Cara. No. She was shopping with her mom and she said, I need some fashion advice. No, she's more fashionable than even you at this point.

I don't know about that. But I'm going to let her inherit all of my shoes. Okay, let's move along. Okay. Kara, you want to read us out? Certainly. Today's show was produced

by Naeem Araza, Blake Nischik, Christian Castro-Rossell, Raffaella Seward, and Claire Tai. Special thanks to Hley Milliken. Our engineers are Fernando Arruda and Rick Kwan. And our theme music is by Trackademics.

If you're already following the show, you've hit a grand slam. If not, there's no crying in podcasting. So go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On with Kara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network and us.

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