On with Kara Swisher - Ari Emanuel on his New Memoir, ‘Ragent’ Reputation, and Changing Hollywood

Episode Date: October 5, 2026

Ari Emanuel built a name for himself in Hollywood as a firebrand agent filled with rage. In his new memoir, “Roll the Calls,” he reflects on how that rage shaped his career and argues it helped him transform the entertainment industry. He’s now the executive chair and CEO of TKO and executive chairman of the WME Group. In a live conversation hosted by Live Talks Los Angeles, Kara and Ari talk about the ways growing up in the shadow of two talented older brothers shaped his perception of himself, and why Kara believes the book reveals a softer side of the notoriously fiery “ragent.” They also talk about David Ellison and the Paramount-Warner Bros. Discovery merger, the arrival of AI in Hollywood, and why Ari continues to talk to Elon Musk and President Trump.  Questions? Comments? Email us at [e-mail] or find us on YouTube, Instagram, TikTok, Threads, and Bluesky @onwithkaraswisher. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Ari was very sweet to me, and he gave me a hat as I got in here. And it says, rage, which I thought was very cute. And the note said, I'll just read it really quickly for you. Oh, I can't find it. He basically said, thank you so much for doing this. And if it doesn't go well, fuck you. Hi, everyone, from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. This is On with Kara Swisher, and I'm Kara Swisher.

My guest today is Ari Emanuel, Executive. chair and CEO of TKO and the executive chairman of the WME group. We spoke in front of a live audience during an event hosted by Live Talks, Los Angeles. His long history in Hollywood includes co-founding the talent agency endeavor, then merging it with the William Morris Agency to create one of the largest talent representation firms in the country. He brought W, W.W.E and UFC together with his Sports Enterprise TKO and also founded the live events company, Mari.

His new memoir, Roll of the Calls, is out now, and actually it's about his agenting. He calls himself a ragent. Of course, you know him from the show Entourage, Ari Gold, but it's not the same. And actually, it's a really gripping and interesting book that is, I think, unintended, quite painfully talking about himself, and it's worth a read. Our expert question today comes from his famous brothers, Rom and Zeke Emanuel. Rom is a former mayor of Chicago and served as a White House Chief of Sapp under President Obama. He was also the ambassador to Japan. Zique is an oncologist, bioethicist, and health policy expert at the University of Pennsylvania,

and served as a senior policy advisor in the Obama administration. Most importantly, they are his brothers. It's quite a trio. And Ari is my least favorite, Emmanuel, as I like to tell him. So stick around. Ripple has been powering modern finance for a decade. We're leading the charge to bridge the gap between existing financial systems and the future of finance. You can have it all. Legacy, stability, and digital innovation.

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Oh, thank you. I'm going to start with all the feels at the start. top. But we're not going to be talking about the following, if you don't mind. We're not talking about Ari Gold. I don't give a fuck about him. Eating worms in your demented health regimen, which is just away. You don't give a fuck about that. I don't at all. I don't care when you die. Thank God. Your manic travel schedule. Don't give a fuck about that. I don't. And the porn scene in the departed. So I'm sorry if you're here to hear about that, but we're not going to do that. But the first line of your memoir is a Raoul Walsh quote. He's a director about work. In fact,

how important it is and doing the work, which is what I think this book is actually about. And I think this is a work drama, more than anything else that you've done here, about power and who has it and who doesn't and how to get it, essentially. I don't think it's about rage, actually, even though you talk about rage all the time

and at the beginning of the book. And I do think that is what I call a jazz hands brand, like mine as being a spiky lesbian. Oh, my God, you're a spiky. I am indeed, very, quite spiky. But you lay it on thick, and I'm going to quote you, every story starts with rage and every story one way or another ends up there. Rage or be complicit, we fight and we fuck.

Wrestling without rage is just cuddling. There is no little enemy. History has been shaped by bad moods as much as good intentions. And of course you coined the phrase, ragent, which is what you are, a raging agent, I suppose. But talk about what has your tough guy facade enabled you to do over the course of your career? And how does it help? Can I just say the following?

You're in a rage, I know. So Cormac McCarthy, I think, said rage is there for the things that you can fix. The rest is grief. And I think that actually kind of is me, you know. I would rather get to the rage and deal with the rage. try and find an identity because in my family, as you know my brothers very well, there was Zieg, the smart one, Rom, the artist, and the other one. Yeah. And let me say in advance, I'm sorry for calling you my least favorite Emmanuel. It's okay. They're great. Yes, they are

great, yeah, but go ahead. So when you have that and, you know, and you come into the house and the grades go up and you're dyslexic, and in my house, that was in important, like from an immigrant father and a mother, you know. And so you get pissed off because you're not stupid. And you want to find your place. And then work, I only had when I got out here with, and I came out here, my friend Pete Berg was out here, I had plan A. There was no plan B. Right. And I would do anything for plan A because I wanted to have an identity. And this thing, for whatever reason,

flipped the switch in me. And there was no way I was going to let anybody stand in my way to getting to this place. And I didn't even know where it was. I just was like, one, I loved it. I was happy about it. It was difficult.

But I had to get to my identity. And anything that stood in my way created rage. But why use the word, And you were quoting from... I was fucking pissed. When somebody fucked with my own story in my head of the chess match I was playing to get to where I wanted to be, like in wrestling, I didn't like that dude.

And that's what caused a lot of... But who precisely were you mad out in the first place? Well, that took a lot of onion peeling, right? I didn't know at the beginning. That's when Dr. Com came in. This is his therapist in the book. So it was, I was just mad. It had no kind of destiny or person.

And kind of I was looking for a place where I could be recognized as being really good. And also the rage came from, I think, my, this. this is me being my own doctor com, you know, not wanting to be discovered as the stupid brother, right, or that somebody would discover that you're not smart. And so when you're just battling in your own mind, and it's a tough business anyway. Right. You know, you just work really hard. There's a lot of people standing in your way, and you have a place you think you want to get to.

true or imaginary. So bullying through is the way to do so. Yeah, that's how I did it. Until the point in time, I realized when we had endeavor, I couldn't get even farther with just rage and aggression with people that worked for me that were loyal to me and loyal. So sometimes it manifested in actual violence, like you hit someone with a lunch tray.

Yeah, when I was young. Oh, well, you know. It was when I was. Well, he was making, here. Here's the other thing. He was making fun of somebody because I was in special ed. And he was making fun of somebody. Right.

As somebody I knew. And, you know, I asked him not to do it. Stop. And he decided not to do that. Right. And so, okay, there's only, it's like picking up a chair of Mike Overs' office. There's only one other play. Really?

I'm going to kick the shit out of you. There wasn't a play of I'll pour jello on your head or I'll slap you silly. Because that wasn't, that wasn't in the cards at that point. It wasn't. That wasn't a choice for you. But it's kind of a speak to... Depending on how this ends, if there's a lunch tray, you never know. See...

Now, you know that. No, I don't care. You can try. I don't think you're going to win a throwdown with the lesbian. I just don't think it's happening for you. You're a little guy. I know you're a wrestler, but I have moves myself. Okay. I have the richest man in the world calling me evil, so I'm good.

I'll be good with you. It'll be simple. although he's a lot slower and fatter. He doesn't move as fast. I'm talking about your pal. But anyway, we'll get to him in a minute. But it's kind of a speak truth to power meme. And you make an argument in the book, which is really interesting,

that anger negotiators are better, for example. But a person you trashed in the book, I'm not going to tell you who it was because there were so many, wrote to me, I'm offended as a member of the business world that he espouses rage as positive behavior. How do you answer that? Fuck him.

All right. And he's full of shit, whoever that one is, because I promise you, multiple people that you're talking about in their own way were rageful. Maybe they kept it in and they were trying to present,

fuck them, they're full of shit. I'm walking to the room, you know exactly what you're going to get, and I'm good with that. There's no kind of pretence. If lights are on, guns are out, We're going. Actual gun?

That's me. Okay. But answer that, seriously. Is it positive behavior? Is it the best way to go about things? I mean, you had a partner. First of all, it's not always that way. Right.

Yeah, there's many levels to trying to negotiate and get what you want. Right, sure. One of them is that way. Yeah. And you've got to be backing it up. Great. Other ways, I wouldn't get to where I was if it was only rage. Right.

Right. Right, right. I've got some other moves. I understand that. I'm just letting you know. I know that. One of your moves is to call people incessantly, like you try to do with me. One thing I do to drive him crazy is I don't pick up. Yeah. And then he can text, right?

Like every, like, normal. I don't like that. I know. Any normal fucking person texts. Okay. But if texting existed and then all of a sudden they created the phone, fuck, you can call somebody? Yeah. That would be the cool thing.

Yeah, I don't pick up. I'm still acting. And the problem is his son. That was not my line. You know who's line that was? Ron Myers. Okay. But I thought this memoir actually reveals a lot about you, some of which might be unintentional. This is what I felt was I was reading.

I recently told Scott Galloway on Pivot that it was accidentally thoughtful. What do you think? That's funny. What do you think this? I love that you laugh at yourself. I do. It was funny. Cranking yourself off.

Oh, I'm funny. So what do you think it divulges about you? And I think it's a more interesting story. and how soft you might be, actually. And I thought that your ghostwriter, J.R. Morringer, got a lot out of you. How do you... Here's the higher... I guess here's how I live my life. You know, like in computers, it was it called RSI?

Is it where the computer, we're afraid of by AI or SI, whatever the fuck they're calling it now? Yeah, we're not calling it that. We're going to call it AI, right? Donald Trump just named it S-I versus AI. Yeah, right. whatever okay um recursive self-improvement and i think that's dangerous for s i a i but for humans and this is what i try and do and then i think this is what my parents taught us me and my brothers you know you want to live a meaningful life as opposed to just a pleasurable life and a

meaningful life that has a purpose that actually does bring you pleasure and to do this that, you have to constantly be working on yourself and trying to get better and through all the mistakes you make. And I've made a lot. And I hopefully tell them what they are. And so I have tried, Ariana Huffington sent me this article about RSI, reflect the self-improvement in computers and that we should do it as humans. And it kind of struck me that, yeah, that's kind of how I've lived my life. And I hope to get. I'm not there yet. I'm going to work until the end to get there to constantly get better.

I hope I have two of my four kids here. I've become a better father. I think I've become, maybe not this last two weeks with my beautiful wife, a better husband and a better person in a relationship. And I hope that I've become a better leader and partner to people in my company. And that's not a soft side. That's just somebody trying to get better. You know, soft is not a bad word, but I actually think it was there from the beginning.

There's bits of it that get revealed that I'm not. Well, here's what I would say to you is, I'm a ride or die guy with people that I like. Unless you turn around and try and do something stupid. And you don't ever have to worry if I'm going to be there for you. I'm going to be right next to you. I'm going to be in front of you. I'm going to be doing everything to help you. And that's how my parents brought us up as three boys together.

And they gave us our morals. And when I'm in a relationship, you don't have to worry whether I'm in that relationship. And that goes all the way back. I get that. But it's more of, for example, the Robbie Lance part, he called you Ari, right? Right.

He had this Austrian act. Austrian accent, he clearly got to you in a way that was really interesting. I'm not sure if it was a cautionary tale of how not to end up or perhaps somewhat of a doomed love letter to this guy. Talk a little bit about that relationship, because you clocked him right away. He taught me, and I was like a sponge, he taught me the beginnings of what it meant to be an agent. And people called you back because of who you represented, and that wasn't a bad thing. And if you lost them in this game, it's part of the game. You just have to accept it. And it was just some lovely principles. And he was just a really nice man. And he treated me well,

and he let me kind of experiment. But he was just a great beginning kind of teacher of the business. And when, you know, Mike Ovid stole Al Pacino and then put him in Revolution, and, um, exactly. And, uh, and it was okay. And, um, uh, and it was okay. And, and, He got that. Yeah. And he said, you know, I'm not going to do anything. I'm too old. Go out.

And he set a meeting through Bill Haber. To go there. To go there. But you did not conduct your career like this mentor of yours. No. Because I didn't have those moves. I had my moves. And I'm not trying to be anybody else.

I'm just trying to be me. And, you know, everybody's got their own schick. Did his kindness scare you because you didn't want to end up? like that? No, no, not at all. No. And then I went to a place where you had guys that are on Mount Rushmore. I mean, Michael, it's on Mount Rushmore of this business, and he was incredible. And Ron Meyer was incredible. I remember we all had to go to a screening on, I think it was on Beverly and Fairfax. It was a theater there. So we all piled into the theater. I'm sitting in the middle. Movie comes on. I don't remember who the film Michael was.

what the movie was. And it was a piece of shit that movie. We honestly sit in there. I'm like, what the fuck? I walk out. There's Mike Ovitz. There's Ron Meyer talking to the filmmaker. And these guys were gods to me. And he's pitching it in. Ronnie says to him, incredible. He goes, this is bigger than E.T. And I'm like, holy fuck, that guy's good. And you just, you had Robbie Lance, who had his style, and then you see these guys. And you just had to read about Mike. who was incredible, and Ronnie was incredible. And I learned under Bill Haber, incredible. And they just had a different style.

And then I just got my style. Your style. So one of the big themes, because I thought the Robbie Lanz part was very touching in a lot of ways. And I was surprised. I touched you. Well, try not to.

Okay. Literally, Ari called me up once and said, who would you rather fuck, Elon or me? I thought it was a pretty cool question. You paused. And you're still pausing. I'm never going to answer that question. Xi Jinping.

So one big theme... Hold on. Imagine. One big theme is lack of permanence and feeling unsettled. There's a very unsettled feeling in this book, which I thought was really interesting, how nothing is enough.

And you wrote, we cling to the illusion of safety. I'd like you to talk about that because, of course, it has links to your dyslexia, which seems to be driving your bus even today. A lot less. A lot less. A lot, lot less. But driving the bus really had a lot to do with fuel. There was a period of time, Dr. Com goes to me,

and I definitely was struggling with this being discovered, thinking people are going to realize I'm stupid that I can't do this. And Dr. Calm says to me, he says, you know, people that were really good. in business were considered really smart. And I was like, wow, and kind of dealing with my mom and dad and my impression of them and how they thought about me. And then, I don't know if it was before or after, but I think it was after that a couple months,

my mom and dad fly in. My dad in this heavy Israeli accent asking me questions. I'm telling them, and we had just taken over William Morris. Merged. And, and, and, and, and, uh, there's no such. thing is a merger. No such thing. Yeah. And I tell him everything going on. And I think it was my dad. He goes, well, who does all that? And I go, well, it's not fucking Rahman. It's not fucking

Zeke. Right. So that was my life, you know, with these people. And they loved me to death. But, you know, they never, one, they didn't understand it. And two was like, you know, smart one, the artist, and the other one. The other one. Yeah. And they finally got it at the end. They kind of realized between all this. So it was a lifetime of proving to them that you weren't. And, you know, I say it on occasion, just wanting a little bit more love than my brother's got, just a teeny bit on occasion. And that's a hell of an injure. Yeah, it is. It's often not a great one, actually. No. But it's, you know. You know, one of my premises about a lot of people in tech is they didn't get hugged enough as children. And unfortunately, we're living their pain. All of us are. But this is

a commentary about your life up there. I'm just telling you. It has a lot of fuel. It has a lot of fuel in terms of how people. Well, it definitely drove me. Right. And that drive and that little moment was to prove my identity. Right, which is an ongoing struggle. I recall Sergey Brin's mother, who was a physicist. I was at a party where she was there and she's sort of a little Russian woman. And they were about to go public and she said, I said, you must be so proud of your son. And she looks at me, he goes, he didn't get his PhD. Yeah, when I was, I come home, I'm working for Robbie. I come home, I have three days, I get to Chicago, my brothers are there, I could have gone to

Northwestern and worked at the stock market, the Merck, and I tell then I'm going to go work in the mailroom for 15 cents a mile. I don't know if people understand what that means now. You know, I think you had a base of $200 or $250, and then every mile you would clock and you would have to write down your miles, you'd get 15 cents, and at the end of the week, you would make money. And, you know, Pete Berg and I were living together. And at the beginning, I was living on a couch for eight months. And I would take all the food, because he wasn't working, I would take all the food that was in the counter and bring home so we could eat at night.

But the level of both my brothers, my parents, they just couldn't comprehend this. And my brothers were like nailing me. And so it made you the way you were. So you didn't feel safe in that regard? I don't know if the word was safe. I just knew, again, I said, I didn't have plan B. It was just plan A.

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something, and it cannot ever mean anything if I'm under the thumb of dumbasses. Talk about why you always seem to be that in that way. You start off with some people who start okay, and then you part with them. They become dumb asses in some fashion. And we'll get into some specifics later. I peel out, too. I have this whole thing. is I often look at someone and say, I think you're stupid, I need to leave because I think you're a dumbass or a chucklehead is my latest thing.

Talk about that ability to look at someone and say, I can't be with you because... Well, I was sitting there at ICM, and they had, between Mel Gibson and Julia Roberts, you know, and unbelievable directors and unbelievable television,

you know, shows and packages. and once we had merged, it became a two-horse race between ICM and CIA. And I'm just looking at it. And there's Sam Cohn, there's Jeff Berg, Jim Wyatt. It's completely not functional. You know, and it stands for, at the time everybody internally was making fun, it stands for I cover myself. I'm in all these meetings.

I'm like, what the fuck am I doing here? And then I get hit by the car. And we talked about backstage. You had this experience in your own situation, and I wiggle my fingers and wiggle my toes. And I say to myself, life's not a dress rehearsal. And at 32 or 31, whatever it was, and you think you're invincible.

And then you realize you're not. It could end. And so I'm looking at this. I'm like, I did six months of rehab to get the surgery, had the surgery, and did another eight months after the surgery. And I'm like, I'm not doing it. I'm not this. That was the moment. I'm not doing this. And I saw the world changing, television business changing, and I was just like, I'm not working for these imbeciles. I'm just not going to do it. It's just too short or too long now to do this. And my father went nuts because they, I was in my contract year. They were offering me a million dollars.

You Pissure. Who do you think you are? You're going to not take a million dollars. And I said, Dad, I think I could do this. You know, a million dollars was like, crazy for him. And so I just looked at him on him like, there's no chance. Because they were morons. Jeff Berg was not a moron. But the situation. And let's be very clear, as an agent, before Mike Ovid picked him apart and Ron Meyer picked him apart, Sam Cohn was a legend. He was incredible. He did eat a lot of paper, right? He mean, he ate paper. He ate everything on his desk. But, um. Says the man who eats worms, but go ahead. He ate paper.

You eat worms, but go ahead. He ate paper. Worms. Okay. Healthier. Okay, okay. So what I'm saying is, I just realized I'd come from Intertal and I'd seen CAA and I realized if we were going to do how we wanted to do it. And Tom Strickland was incredible and David Greenblatt and Rick Rosen.

And so we just started. You just left. It takes a lot. I mean, a lot. And they made a huge mistake. You know, we have four nobodies. Yeah. We leave.

And they blow it up as if it's the, like, a coup. Right. Making you more important. Yeah, it was crazy. Yeah, I think one of the things I noted, and I appreciate it about you, is you're a bad employee, as am I. Yeah. Which is why I leave, instead of being a whining bitch about it.

You just go and do your own thing. Yeah. Now, speaking of assholes, according to you, by late 80s, you worked your way up to becoming this agent at CAA and got. a huge blowup with the agency's co-founder, Mike Ovitz, when he found out you were leaving to start something new. As I noted, you literally picked up the chair and threatened to destroy his office.

I'm guessing you probably wouldn't have done that. Every episode, we get a question from an outside expert, but we have two for you. Here's the first from Mr. Ovitz himself. Mr. Emanuel, what an honor for you to take my question. And I must say it is so great that you are doing one of my favorite, favorite podcasts with Ms. Swisher, who is so smart. My question, Mr. Emanuel, is very simple.

What kind of advice would you give to a young, energetic man like me who wants to follow in your footsteps and start a business from the ground up? I very much appreciate what you're about to say, even though. I haven't heard it because I know from history and following your career, it's going to be great. He has laryngitis. So go ahead. What would you advice would you give a young man like Mr. Ovis? Well, you have to be in business with people that you actually like and trust and you believe in and they believe in you.

And you have to create a culture where you lead by being in front of the line. And now, different from then, it wouldn't be a culture of fear. Which you thought that was at the time? Well, his was. Yeah. Did it work? Oh, yeah, incredibly. And for whatever reason, I think you want to be in a place where any idea can be discussed.

And I think at the beginning of my career, it's one of the things I didn't do that well because I was just running too hard. I didn't kind of have a collective thought with people that were younger than me and et cetera in the company. Now I think that's different. So you allow, you don't want to do a culture of fear. No. Not fear. You know, I was pretty bad coming in on Monday mornings. Now, you eventually led you to a merger with WMA, which you did with Patrick Weitzel.

I think the most interesting part about that was sort of the sus justifications around and the numbers that were not quite there. The numbers weren't as good as you thought they were going to be going in. When we were merged? Yeah, when you merged. So we did it in 2008, 2009. We paid Jim Wide and Irvwine Trob a total of $44 million. And then we lost the lawsuit for the building they bought for $35 million. And then they were down on their numbers because for six months we were merging.

And they were down about $20 million. And then we had to pay bonuses of about $25 million. So we were fucked in 08, 2009, when the world was my brother's in the White House. And all I remember I'm saying, you know, it's tipping. And so, yeah, it was horrible. And when you thought about that merger, you went from being an agent to an owner. Yeah. Talk about why that was important because the agency was the means to be coming.

Well, here's what happened. So we merge. Jim leaves, Irv leaves, new board. And then, I think it was 2011,

2010. Teddy, I think it was. Teddy Forsoom gets sick and passes away. Who was a guy I knew and he had just bought IMG. And I was running

all over the world, trying to put money together so that we could buy IMG, because I'm I wanted not only the motion picture, television, music, books, theater, commercials department, I wanted all the sports and then the alive events. And before that, in 2008, I started, when the world coming down,

I brought Joe Ravich and Jeff Sine together, and I created a ring. And in that, I read an article about Mark Andreessen. He had just started Andresen Horowitz. I said, you know, I'd like to meet you. I thought you were interesting. He says, I'll fly to meet you. And I said, I'll fly to you. And he came in. We started talking. And I thought he would be a great name inside the rain that we could then raise money off of his name if we have. And so he flies down. He says, can I come have lunch with you? We go lunch at the grill. And he says, I want to buy into you and I want to go after IMG. And I turned to him and I said, there's no fucking way a P. A P.E.

Firm is going to get us. I've had all these conversations with P.E. firm. He goes, give me your numbers. I'll come back in three weeks. He did. And he made an offer. I had to negotiate, even though I could have signed the offer. And that just started one of the great relationships of all time. And that's kind of in a weird way. I like to say that either I love puzzles,

and my former mother-in-law turned us on to puzzles from stays. I call it creating serendipity. I'll read something. I'll call somebody that will lead to something. And a lot of my relationships start that way. But you didn't want to stay in the agency servicing others. You wanted to be the principal. No, no, no.

I love the agency business. I'm still in the agency business. I'm dealing with Aaron Sorkin's movie and I'm dealing with my best friend Pete Berg's movie. I'm in the agency. But Tyler Perry this morning, for sure. But the great thing about the agency business and what we had with IMG,

we had created all the services you need, distribution, production, licensing, everything that you needed if you owned what I wanted to do, a sports asset. Right. And so the next step after IMG and doing all the deals internationally for sports rights and doing all the license fees here, I knew what you, all you had to do is then put a property on there and then came to UFC. We'll be back in a minute. So one of the things I was thinking about when I met you was you started to do a lot of tech stuff. You talked about Mark Andreessen.

But speaking of mergers, you're advising David Ellison on the Paramount Warner Brothers merger. Talk, I want, and I don't want you to go on about it because I know he loves movies. Got it. Talk about the settlement. And I know you need four bidders. Got it. Got it. Okay, sure.

Why not? But these are tech people. It's a tech person and the son of a tech person, essentially. Talk about why you think it's a good idea for Hollywood. Let's use this an example as tech people. Why do you think it's a bad idea? I don't think it's a bad or good idea. I think you should grow through innovation, not consolidation.

I think you're going to both ways. I guess, but it seems like a lazy, rich person's way of doing so. Great. I think it's also non-economic the way it looks right now. That's your opinion, right? And there's other people that will go through numbers and show you why. not, and that will be a discussion that you guys. Yeah, and about a year I'll be absolutely correct.

Go ahead. Okay. I think we should have everybody back in one year, we'll have this conversation. Yeah, I remember when David Zazlov told me that debt wasn't a problem. That's a different conversation. Yeah. At the beginning, when Netflix started and then everybody had a direct-to-consorb business. Right.

Everybody was talking on Wall Street in the world that there had to be consolidation. Mm-hmm. So three, four years later, we had consolidation because the economics doesn't work. But on the other hand, only having one and a half bidders, maybe two and a half bidders with Disney. And Amazon is a platform that people can be on and also make their own stuff. Sure. You need, for the buying community, for the selling community, you need more. You need, because the definition of monopoly is when you're making a deal and that person that you're making a deal with says,

oh, how much you're making on advertising at the UFC? After that point, we want five percent because it's us. So having been an owner and realizing those conversations, depending on how big you are and how much leverage you have, that's not a good thing for anybody in the creative community. So that's why I want more bidders. I want more bidders so that my clients and my competitors' clients can have more more power in the market.

Are you at all worried, one about the debt, too about the implications of CNN? I know you suggested the nonsensical editorial board. No, but here's what I'm going to say to you about that. No, you're wrong. No, you don't even know what the fuck I'm going to say. I know what you're going to say. No one, you don't.

Go ahead. So, tell me non-journalist. Yeah. So you're nervous that he's going to reach down to CNN and he's going to put his point of view in CNN. No, I'm nervous that he's a moron about, media, but go ahead. So I just come 100%

disagreed that. Okay. So here's a guy that let John Stewart do what he did. And John Stewart has been banging away at the president and the administration. Matt and Trey on Sars Park have been incredible. Right. These are the examples you use. Yeah, and he had somebody in late night

for one year. Because if he really wanted to stop them from talking, he would just yank them off. Even though that business, as funny as he is, Late light is losing approximately $50 million. I don't think he's going to do anything as it relates to reaching down and putting his hand on that situation. I don't. You know, I think it's very easy to talk about political interference.

What it is is someone who doesn't fundamentally understand media suggesting the editorial board. Journalists don't need money or they need competent managers. And I think they have one in Mark. Okay. Yes, if that continues. Right. Are you here to tell us that's good enough? I don't know.

you'll wait and see. Yeah. But Mark is a really talented executive. The guy who runs CNN. He's incredible. Came from the BBC, New York Times. He's great. And we're waiting for his.

So the two things I think I'm more focused on is, I don't think they will necessarily, it's that they could. And there have been many credible reports about pleasing Trump, and there's obvious obsequious suck-up behavior happening. I just told you in three instances that that is a false narrative.

Those were people who were there before, so they didn't. But if he wanted to, he could have taken Colbert off late night. He let them there for a year. John has been pounding away, and that whole show has been pounding away rightfully. So has South Park been hysterically funny,

has not done anything. All right. Those are three comedy shows. I would one. One day, two are kind of hit on news, different way to form news, and the way news is perceived and accepted from a generation. I don't know.

I would rather... You just don't have an argument. You just hate to say yes to me. No, I don't. It's okay. Say yes. I just, I've watched what's happened in the things they were. You know what I would do?

I think they're incompetent. So here's where you and I are different. Here. I don't want to... I think they're dumb asses and I don't want to work for them. Okay. Here's my point. Well, you don't have...

This is your own business. You could just do this. That's correct. That's why I have my own business. So I would say to you the following. I don't want to live in an echo chamber. I've said this. I know, you have sense.

And I don't want, just because I'm friends with people doesn't mean I agree with them or abide by what they say. So I would rather, like with you, we have great discussions. You actually, I don't want to give you any props, but you actually influence me and you make me think about stuff. I think the same is true that you can have a conversation and influence David. He is that guy that you can talk to, knowing him for 10 years representing him. You worried at all that a lot of Hollywood creative thousands publicly oppose the merger, and the people in favor tend to be very wealthy, including a group that includes foreign investors, Saudi Arabia, Abu Dhabi, Qatar.

They hold almost half the company's ownership. I think we will see in a little bit of time. He's going to do, he said it, and put it in the document, 30 movies, you know, 170 series, spending $30 billion to $31 billion a year? Fantastic. It's great for the community. What if it doesn't come to pass? What if my Bubby has a beard?

That's not the same thing. That's the cute line, but it's kind of meaningless. What if? I don't know. Yeah, and you trust these people to do that. I believe in David a lot. Okay. Okay, we'll see what happens.

I'm not going to argue with you. You're wrong. So you do say the movie business, is never dying and that people have always overreacted to change, but L.A. County has lost 57,000 entertainment jobs in last four years. Productions filmed in California have been in steady decline. But it's a different conversation. That's nothing to do with David.

Well, he's promising to help. First, he threatened to leave and then. That's a negotiation. I understand, but it was stupid. It was also dumb. Whatever. Whatever. I mean, he won.

He got what he wanted. Yeah. Okay. I think he looks like a duphus. He won. Okay, but it's a dumb threat. He won. It makes me think he's dumber.

Okay, whatever. Fine, great. Good for him. Yay. Wow, a rich kid just got richer. I'm so pleased for him. From your point of view, he's in debt. He's never going to come out of debt.

Maybe he got poorer. Yeah, that's true. That's true. All right. Pick aside. Okay. I have picked aside. You should let me go where I want to go.

So what happens next after this? Because these are all really economically challenged businesses here in California, particularly. And the movie industry, which you know. I'm trying to do. I'm trying to get a rebick. First of all, that this state has not imposed what Atlanta has or any of the other states is insane. It's just crazy. I mean, I had productions that had to move to Atlanta. It's just not right. I'm trying to get President Trump, and I've been on the phone with Adam Schiff. I've been on a phone with King Jeffries. I'm trying to get a call with Senator Scott and Leader Schumer about getting the tax rebate for the country. And I think it has a

really good shot, probably in lame duck, to get passed. And then I think we all, on the next, with the next governor, have to really work hard to put a serious plan in place to get a rebate here. And then they sit on top of each other, and then I think production will stay. And I think, Everybody wants that. Certainly, but one of the problems, of course, is many of the owners will be tech owners, people like the Ellisons who can afford this, these yachts. Now, AI has put them under siege. It's very clear.

More, there's 130 lawsuits have been brought against OpenAI, Google, Amazon, meta, XAI, perplexity, Nvidia, Suno, and other developers. What does this have to do with my book? I want to know how you think about AI, because you're thinking about what's coming next. Here's what I'm thinking about. So I think in 2016, I believe sports was going to go where it was. We were the crazy that we bought UFC, the highest price of all time, and now it looks cheap. And I believe sports is still up and to the right.

Live is up into the right. Sports, music, and events. I started a live investment business. I also think my youngest, I have my middle son. and my eldest son, Noah and Ezra are here. My youngest son and my middle son said, Dad, you know what they call Thursday? They call it Baby Friday.

So I believe if you look at hotel reservations, travel times, a bunch of data, Thursday night people are starting to go out and they're coming in late on Monday. So you have a lot of free time. And if AI works, let's just go with that premise. And we get GDP up to 3 to 3.5%. We're going to be out of a deficit

and there's going to be like, you're going to have a lot. more free time. They're going to, we're going to be consuming and consuming a lot of entertainment live, but also with AI, as we just saw in some of the box office movies, it's going to become cheaper. And there's going to be a lot more content out there. There's going to be a lot more, content's going to be defined in a lot more ways. You're going to have micro dramas. Your social is going to be big. It's just going to be a great number of pieces of content being created. and I think that's just great for all of us

and it's going to be at a price. Now, there is going to be some dislocation. Some people are going to lose their jobs. I think it's always happened with technology. That's not a good thing. But I think there's going to be a lot more content. And I think that's a great thing for our community and for creative people.

As Steve Jobs once said, humans were the slowest movers across the land and then the bike came in. And with their legs, they moved. And I think AI is going to help us in entertainment. So you look at it. AI is helping humans and not killing, have a 10% chance of killing us. I'm hoping that that is the case.

With the current Pinky Promise in Washington, I'm nervous about it. Right. But I do think if we could put some guardrails in it, it could be incredible. Well, let's get back to your book then, because one of the things, I mean, we could talk about you calling Barry Diller just a melage of old farts and bad ideas. He's just not relevant anymore. He's very smart. He's not relevant. He's still very smart.

Barrett. Okay. Okay. Whatever. What's he smart about? So here's what he said. Here's what he said. He said during COVID, the movie business was dead. And then he tried it by Paramount.

I mean, shut the fuck. Pick a lane. Yeah. And stop trying to be relevant. Yeah. Okay. All right. Because you've never been wrong, Ari.

No, I've been wrong a lot. I actually pointed out in the book. I actually have been wrong a lot. Yes, I know. And you said Jeffrey Katzenberg makes everyone yawn and look like, boy, look at the time. You called Katzburg a glad-handed phony and a fucking putts. You compared him to a golden retriever. No, a golden retriever was better.

Something about... Something about some stupid basketball tickets. No, here's what happened. I'm going to give it to you. I'm going to give it to you. He, when we were starting... He was starting out. Try to take advantage of us in economics.

You wanted the tickets. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Move on past that. All right, okay. The thing that really upset me, Yeah. He calls me up. Now, remember, my brother worked in the administration of Obama and Biden.

He goes, I can get you into see Biden. You think I fucking need you to get me into see Biden, especially if I'm writing a check for a million dollars. Right. Okay. And then he gives us Biden, which a lot of us, me a year before, was screaming Ruth Bader Biden. And he said, I could do all these things with Biden.

I can do all these things in Karen Bass. and then the election's over. I don't want to talk about politics. How about fuck you, asshole? You're the one that was pushing this so hard. You didn't do anything a year beforehand to get him out, and you actually said you had the ability to talk to him and get him out. Where the fuck were you?

Okay. Interesting, because I've noticed Trump sleeps a lot during events. Have you done anything to get him out? Sleeping president? Someone who has cognitive, obvious cognitive issues? I'm just curious since you're right there. I deal with him what I want and I actually have the conversations when I disagree with him. Okay, but are you worried about his cognitive abilities?

You should talk to my brother. He's a doctor. I'm talking to you. You know, those are medical issues that you should talk to him about. Yeah, but I'm talking about. Because when I've had conversations with him, he's very, he's on it a lot. And he'll follow up a lot. So I'm sorry to say that for me and my interaction, with him, that doesn't exist.

Okay, so you don't think it's a similar thing? I don't. Okay, all right. So one of the things I want to finish up on, there's two things I want to finish up on. One is, obviously, Elon Musk now. In the vein of, he just, it was at your weekend, the weekend thing.

He talked about space. Talked about space. I heard it was very impressive. In that vein, no, I did. I actually am being serious. In that vein. And I think yesterday it was pretty, was it yesterday?

Yeah. Yeah, it was pretty impressive. Much of the way, yeah. And after, I like the space stuff, I don't have a problem with the space stuff, but in the vein of telling our narratives, in Mel Gibson Ferver, you wrote, I'm realizing that I have a platform and this scandal has me thinking about how I want to use it and what do I want to use it for and against. How do you make those judgments and why do you, you know, you make a hobby of making friends with you basically study rich people? I have a lot of relationships because I can actually talk to a lot of people. You call them your professors and that you got in the book. One of the things that when I talk to Elon, he gives me pretty good insight where he thinks the world's going.

It's helped me in business when going after the UFC, starting my events business. He has been pretty profound in kind of how he sees the world going. And he's given me... No, he hasn't? Go ahead. What the fuck was that? I don't know. It's Elon probably.

So, yeah, I mean, he's been pretty good and kind of... laying out where he sees the world going. That enables me to kind of figure out in business where I could be. I'm wondering if Mel Gibson rubbed you the wrong way, why Elon doesn't? I don't always agree with Elon, and I actually get into conversations with them. I'm not talking about disagreements. I'm talking about statements about white people, black people. I actually got into a very heated conversation with it and actually hung up the phone on them.

Okay. But you went on on a real limb for Mel Gibson's statements. What is the difference? I want to understand what the difference is. Mel Gibson went on a rant. I mean, you talked about it. Mel Gibson went on a rant about women, black people, Jews, and then did it again. Elon and has done very good things and things that I disagree with.

Right. And also, I hate to clue you, I've also matured and how I deal with people and how I interact with people. Okay. And I don't think he's ever used the N-word or any of those words. but maybe Elon you're telling me has. I've never heard that. Whites are a rapidly dying minority. Anyone raising a baby as a trans is guilty of extreme child abuse.

If I were black, Starling would have received. I disagree with them on those things. And I tell them those things. I'm just curious how it's different. Like, why is it different than a Mel Gibson? In my mix, it's different. Not that I want you to be fair to Mel Gibson, particularly. But what is the difference?

Where's your line for you? There's no line. It moves. I wish I could say to you there's black and white. You know and you're mature enough to know, we are living in gray constantly. Okay. For some reason, only white characters are race-swapped.

Why is that? I don't know. I've never heard that. I mean, these are pretty... I've never heard those. He says them. Okay. He says them all the time.

I just wanted to understand where you decide to speak up when you don't. I want to end on... You know, I'm not sitting there with a microscope and everything he says, I actually have a life. I understand that. Okay. All right. All right. I know you're in that microscope in a focus.

I'm not in a microscope. I'm like if you say, it's interesting who we decide to let go and who we don't. That's just my feeling. And I want to know what yours is. And I think you said... Actually, with Mel Gibson, he and I had a conversation where I think he actually did a lot of work. And I said, you know something when Mark Wahlberg said, I want him in one of my movies? I said, you should because he's actually done a lot of work and he's actually done some self-work. Right. I thought it was great.

Right. I understand that. But one of the things you said to in your book is, I tell Larry David on election night, I can't fight anymore. He laughs since when. I tell him I'm serious. I can't have a beef with half my friends. I can't hate half my country.

Yeah. How does anybody get back now? From your perspective? I don't know. I mean, from me? For you and the rest of them. Well, I would just say to you the following. From the rage, I guess.

You know, I want to live in a society. and in a society you have to get in the ring, you have to talk to people and you have to have the conversation and they're going to sway you a little bit sometimes and you're going to sway them. That's where I want to live

and that's how I want to live my life because that's the only way this country is going to get out of the polarization that you can't talk to anybody on the other side and move forward and we need that desperately for the country. Do you imagine we can get rid of the race? Because rage is what has happened now.

Listen, I'm... Which is your brand. I'm hoping that we can. Hopefully we get a good leader in the White House that's a Democrat that can kind of cross the aisle. All right, my last thing. Speaking of family, here are two more outside experts, Zeke and Rahm Emanuel, with another expert question for you. Ha ha ha ha ha ha.

Question is we should ask our right. All right. What we should do is make sure that next time he takes the lower bunk, not the upper bunk. Simple question. Ari, in both your professional and personal life, what was a mistake you made or sat back? And what did you learn from it? And how have you applied it subsequently to avoid making similar mistakes in the future? Second question. What advice would Ari Emanuel give Ari Gold to improve his business and his personal life? Good luck, Ari. We love you. It's a great book. Monday through Friday, we love you. Saturday and Sunday? Not so much. Notice how Zeke read the book and Rahm hasn't read the book.

Right, that's correct. Yeah. All right, what do you answer your book? I don't remember what the questions were. They asked what advice would Ari Emanuel give to Erie Gold and what would you do to avoid making similar mistakes? I would, I think at the time, Ari Gold did a great job. It was hysterical. I've now started to watch the show. I know that. I understand that. I probably wouldn't have taken the phone into the marriage counselor.

I don't remember doing that. I may have done that. I probably did it. But what advice would you give to yourself if you're looking back? That's, I think, what you know, I mean, I guess the thing is I would have enjoyed it more. I don't think I enjoyed it more. I don't think I, Brand Joel, who's a friend and somebody that works,

he goes, you know, you never like to celebrate the wins. And I'm just, I'm just moving on. I don't like doing that. And maybe that was how we grew up. And I think my wife would tell me I still don't celebrate him enough, but I'm enjoying my life. I'm happy-ish. I'm satisfied-ish.

Wow. Yeah, exactly. You know, my son Noah said to me on a plane ride, he was in high school and he goes, I think he was a sophomore, he goes to my ex-wife and me, he goes, can't we just be normal? I'm like, who the fuck wants to be normal? And what the fuck is the definition of normal? So I don't know what happy is. I'm so much happier now. I wish I would have enjoyed it more back then, even though it was painful, great, And I'm really happy now that I'm in this place still getting better and still working at it. So that's an excellent answer. So you use it as a trick, there's a lot, asking people when you're trying to get them to do something. Are you happy, Ari?

Yeah. Are you asking me? Yeah. I just answered that fucking question. Yeah. Yeah, I'm happy. I'm happy-ish. And what would make you happier?

To be healthy, continue to do this. seeing my kids just be unbelievably prosperous, which they're on their way to, and seeing the agency that I started and the people there take it over and just grow it way past. And the two businesses I have now that I'm completely involved with, who knows, just be on that great ride. So you are soft. Ari Emanuel, everybody. Today's show was produced by Vicki Vergolina, Michelle Alloy,

Catherine Millsop, Megan Bernie, and Madeline LaPlante Duby. Nishot Kerwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Special thanks to Lisa Soap, Olivia Briley, Rosemary Ho, Jim Mackle, Manolo Moreno, and Live Talks, Los Angeles. Our engineers are Fernando Aruda and Rick Juan, and our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, you don't have to eat a cup of worms tomorrow morning.

If not, you'll never eat lunch in this town again, at least with Ari Emanuel. And thank God for that. that. Go over you listen to a podcast, search for On with Kara Swisher, and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On with Caroushisher from Podium Media, New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Thursday with more.