On with Kara Swisher - Brooke Shields on Surviving Hollywood

Episode Date: February 19, 2024

Today, we’re replaying a conversation that Kara taped last spring with none other than Brooke Shields. Shields became a teenage superstar through her roles in “Pretty Baby” and “Blue Lagoon” as well as the famous Calvin Klein ads (“Do you want to know what comes in between me and my Calvins? Nothing.”). In her new Hulu documentary, “Pretty Baby: Brooke Shields,” she talks about how she sees those hypersexualized roles today and how she survived life in an industry that she says did nothing to help her. Shields also revisits her complex relationship with her mother, who introduced her to modeling and acting, and how Shields now counsels her own two teenage daughters about feeding the social media “monster.” Questions? Comments? Email us at [e-mail] or find us on social media. We’re on Instagram/Threads as @karaswisher and @nayeemaraza Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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and we've delved into how social media has changed things. It feels timely, given the recent conversation around social media and kids' safety. Have a listen. Hi, everyone. From New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network, this is the jury from the Utah ski trial, and she is Gwynescent. Just kidding. No, she is.

This is On with Kara Swisher, and I'm Kara Swisher in what was the stupidest trial of all time. And I'm Naima Raza. It's so sad to see the end of the White Lotus Season 3, a.k.a. Park City Fashion Week. These celebrities countersuing for a dollar as Taylor Swift did and as Gwyneth Paltrow did seems to turn a trick. You know, as Roy Wood Jr. said, it is literally the whitest trial ever. And so I just didn't know he did a great, for anybody who really enjoys The Daily Show, he is a real highlight on that show now. And he's been doing reports from the trial and they're fantastic. I gotta say, I want to make a documentary of it because it just plays so well when they ask her about her suffering and she says,

well, we lost half a day of skiing. And then she can't even help but smile. I know, but the guy against her was worse, so it didn't really matter. I know. Celebrity culture is very different than you and I. Well, the Gwyneth Paltrow trial is actually indicative of a fascination that our culture has with these power women whose idealized version kind of like taunts us and haunts us. And it's something relevant to our guest today, Brooke Shields. Yeah. Brooke Shields is a unique character in sort of the annals of just not just celebrity, but modeling. And she's such a nexus of everything. I mean, it was such an impactful thing. This was when I was, we're around the same age, you know, but all the obsession with her looks and the

sexualization of young girls, it all plays into issues we have today. Yeah, let's set up the interview a bit for listeners who may not realize what a megastar Brooke Shields was in the 80s. You know, it's such a different thing because everybody's famous and everybody can be an influencer and there's so many different avenues of fame now. But at the time, it was all very distilled into a few figures at any one time. But at the time, it was all very distilled into a few figures at any one time. And she was famous forever, starting when she was a little girl, when she was a model. And then she sort of popped onto the scene because of this movie, Pretty Baby, she was in, where she played a daughter of a prostitute who then essentially became a prostitute.

But she was, I don't know, 12? Yeah, or maybe 11 even. Very young. And so it was a big deal. She also was so striking and was also a model. And then she was in these Calvin Klein ads. They had TV ads and they also had these amazing billboards that were impossible to look away from. And they were beautifully rendered, beautifully photographed. The copy was terrific.

They were entertaining. But it didn't take away from the fact that this was a very young girl writhing around on the floor in very tight jeans and so the whole message was so fucked up i don't even know it was so fucked up and impossible not to look at yeah she married a famous tennis star etc andre agassi of course yeah culturally like i remember her as a kind of comedic star in a later phase of her career which which we'll get into. But now there's been this big trend of reclaiming the narrative from women who were representing what it meant to be female in the 80s and 90s. So whether it's the documentary by Pamela Anderson, and now this two-part documentary on Hulu, incidentally also called Pretty Baby, ironically,

we're hearing them tell the stories of their own lives and break down those kind of carefully curated images of themselves. What was interesting about this documentary by Brooke Shields is that she doesn't play the victim. She's very thoughtful about a complex topic, which is why I appreciate it. She didn't immediately say I was taken advantage of or this and that. She's thinking about it. And you can come to many different conclusions watching this thing. And you can come to many different conclusions watching this thing. She has a sense of her own kind of role and agency and the benefits she got from this and also the difficulties and challenges she needed to surmount. And I think she's trying to be as, you know, removed from it as possible as she talks about it, even like looks a little compartmentalized when she speaks about it on the screen.

Well, when she's young, particularly, you can see it. She uses that word a lot, compartmentalized. And, you know, she had these moments when people would ask her just the worst questions. You know, you're so pretty. Like, oh, it's creepy. It's just you couldn't do that today, 100%. But, you know, I have since had a daughter. I have mostly sons, but why do I think about it a lot when people talk to my daughter? She's very young and pretty, and they say that to her. And it really puts my skin on edge when it happens, because it's weird, the prettyization of girls. So that's not new. I feel that's always been a value to strive for, and it's a kind of constant ideal for women to hit. I think the difference now is that when I was a kid, I didn't expect to look like Brooke Shields. She was not regular. She was special. And now, I think there's an expectation to look like that because we have Instagram, Photoshop for all,

plastic surgery, Ozempic. And it just feels like normal has kind of been elevated to this Brooke Shields type status, which is, it's not true and it's distorting. And the fact that it feels accessible, but isn't. Yeah, it certainly hasn't gotten better, right? Well, good to the interview in just a second, but I want to ask you about a major evolving news story, which sets the context for all of this, which is the impact of social media on teens. And in particular, the conversation has been around teen girls. So obviously there was the internal studies leaked by Facebook whistleblower Frances Hogan in 2021. And then we've had kind of many years of social media and teen health data that Jonathan Hay and Jean Twenge have been collecting.

And then earlier this year, the CDC study of 17,000 teens and said that almost three in five U.S. teen girls felt persistently sad or hopeless. And one in three have contemplated suicide. So huge amount of data coming out. And there's still, scientifically, you'd say it's correlation, not causation. Although, of course, we see a huge elbow, what Jonathan Haidt calls an elbow in the data, starting around 2012-ish. elbow in the data starting around 2012-ish. And that uptick in depression, particularly for young women, you know, people feel like, what's the better answer than social media? So I'm curious what your lens is on it. It's indicating that, that's correct. There's not total proof that this is happening. In this case, it's very clear that the addiction combined with almost constant imagery

of comparative nature is causing all kinds of mental health issues, including adding on the pandemic where people were isolated and not in schools and not seeing each other face-to-face. You know, again, I have older sons who do this, but they've turned off all their social media. It doesn't make them feel good. And they just say it very simply, it doesn't make me feel good. And so I think over the years, we'll see that this is exactly what was the issue, the mental health issue, that has taken basic issues that young people have about self-esteem and put them on steroids. And I think we're going to be not surprised by the results ultimately over time. Do you think we'd be better off today if there had been some kind of moratorium on social media in order to understand its effect on kids or think about age gating in different ways?

Something similar to the moratorium that Elon and Steve Wozniak are calling for. That's a little more complex. Yeah, but the idea of a moratorium to get ahead of the effects. I don't know. You don't know until you know, right? I'm not big on moratoriums. They should have had privacy and safety rules in from the start, and we left it to them to do it, and they didn't do it because, as I always say, these people who designed it never felt unsafe a day in their lives,

and so they didn't understand lack of safety that women feel, people of color feel, marginalized people feel, and so therefore it's not the safety isn't there, and it's too late. Yeah, and the way that Andrew Bosworth talked about it, I think, is like it's not nicotine, it's sugar, and so you kind of have to control your own dose. Yes. Thanks, Boz. Yeah, I know. Whatever. Well, we are where we are. And Brooke Shields has a great story to tell about some of how we got here. We'll take a quick break and we'll be back with the interview. Fox Creative. This is advertiser content from Zelle.

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So now, it's easier than ever to be a marketer. Get started at HubSpot.com slash marketers. It is on. Hi, Brooke. Hi, how are you? I want to get into this documentary and start with your early career, and as you note, the compartmentalization of your life. You came up as a child actor and model.

The amount of material you have about yourself was amazing, these archives. The archival photos, I'd never seen some of these things. My mom, you know, she just kept everything. I mean, she kept every newspaper clipping and then would get multiples and saved them all and had them in banker's boxes. And they were all in this one room in my house when I was in California. And I just thought either this stuff is going to disintegrate or I'm not quite sure if it's a legacy. I don't know. I just thought I might as well digitize this stuff.

And I hired somebody who ended up becoming a very close person in our lives. And it took them about six years to digitize it all. And I just thought, at the very least, I can give it to my kids one day. And this is the life your mother led. Or maybe when I got a Lifetime Achievement Award at the Academy Awards. So you had all this material and you put it together as your life. What was your hypothesis here? Why did you do this? Why did I do the film?

Well, you know what? I think I didn't set out to prove anything. And I was very glad that the topic was going to just not be me, but really talk about sexualization of young women and how America does it and how America is different and how it changes based on what America needs it to be to serve its purposes at that particular time. So that was the intellectual piece of it. The ego piece of it, or the, I don't know, personal piece of it, I had to get over at first because what I wanted it to be in my ego was a retrospective of all the amazing talent that I

displayed. And book she has. Ta-da. And look at me in this. And I wanted my daughters to say, oh my God, you're so funny. And yet, oh, you can be talented. I don't know. And oh, and she's smart. And so there were all these like little insecure ego pieces that I immediately thought, oh, this is going to be cool.

And then I stepped out of that. And I thought, you know what? This is a life that is very unique in the way it has survived. And when I look at who I am today, part of me really sees me as a little girl. I'm a little bit that same person that you see in those early interviews. But I'm also someone who has really gone through a lot. And I'm very proud of how I navigated it. And my story is not that different from everybody else's. Right, you just don't see it on the screen. You don't see it in ads and things like that.

So let's talk about your breakout role in Pretty Baby. You play the daughter of a prostitute raised in 1900s New Orleans brothel who then becomes a prostitute. I remember this film. It was very disturbing. I'm a little bit older than you, but not much. And I remember being deeply disturbed by this movie, and I didn't know why. I wasn't quite old enough. Absolutely. I get to watch everything. My parents didn't monitor me

in any way, but that's a different story. But you were 11 years old when it was shot. You talk about it, and what's interesting to watch you do interviews about it is, you don't have a blank stare because you're very present, but you definitely disassociate when you're looking at those videos. And every now and then they catch your face and it's blank. And it's really interesting to watch those interviews. And I'll get into how these men interview you, which is somewhat appalling when you look at today. And why I don't know why it's more appalling in some way, but women as well. Well, you're 11 because you're 11, you know, so you talk about as a job and even now you do, is that, do you think that's the case? Do you think about it that way still? I mean, maybe it's disassociation. It's very possible. I think that the interesting thing

about film making is that it's so far from reality when you're doing any of it. That it did not affect me the way the film itself affected people. And it was a job. I mean, it was, I didn't feel, it's just so strange because I keep getting asked this question. And I think the desire is for me to say how miserable I was and how uncomfortable I was and how I knew something was wrong. And that's, it just wasn't the case. I mean, I think my focus was so lazily focused on my mother, making her happy. She kept calling it art, which was interesting.

Well, keeping her alive. And again, it wasn't just a tool in the film. I grew up in New York City in a very eclectic, bohemian, diverse way in Manhattan. She was taking me to see Rocky Horror Picture Show in gay bars with my friends and experience it. And they all, all the performers loved me and were sweet and let me play with their makeup. And then I would go home and go to school the next day. So there was this, I wasn't shocked. Nothing shocked me. And we weren't Puritan. My mom was Catholic. She was a paradox. I mean, constantly two things were always happening. But talked about everything we talked about everything and again well she she made you an adult well before you were an adult in a lot of she you were her companion and and I was her

caretaker and and let's be clear I just we're going to talk about this later your mom was an alcoholic and you talk about that quite a lot in the film. Absolutely. Because it shaped me. I mean, I think that that was the first real true shaping mechanism in my life was navigating alcoholism. And you used the word compartmentalized before. And the thing that's so interesting is I also had a very traditional father. The thing that's so interesting is I also had a very traditional father. And from a very early age, I would put on my top sliders, my Lacoste shirt, and my jeans, and I would be that girl at my dad's house. You know, and that was dinner at six, and kids ate in the kitchen, and the parents ate in the dining room and waspy, wealthy life.

And then I had my mom, small apartment, Manhattan, bohemian, all artist friends, all different walks of life. And so I was playing a different role in that world. So I think by the time Pretty Baby happened, it was just yet another persona to jump into. Were you surprised by the controversy and was there enough controversy? I was shocked by it. I have to say I was shocked by that. I'm sure we'll get to Calvin Klein. I was shocked by that. Naive or stupid or I don't know. But there was no level of true deep discomfort and sense of abuse during the filming.

I mean, I find it fascinating that nobody seemed to have a problem with Susan really slapping me across the face in real life, like 12 times. Or working an 11-year-old. This is Susan Sarandon for people who don't know. I know her today. She's a lovely, brilliant actress. But no one had a problem with working an 11-year-old 12, 14-hour days with shoes that made her feet bleed. Now, obviously,

the public would not know that, and I understand that, but it just was so fascinating to me that the things that people were objecting to, they phased me the least because they were all fake. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. And you would, as a child, have no idea of the larger implications, right? No, and you're not thinking thematically. You know, you're not thinking of the effect it will have on people in that way. I mean, and again, this is not just a mechanism

to exonerate myself in any way. I was surrounded by those movies. Yeah. So you felt comfortable in that thing. And then you mentioned Blue Lagoon. That was age 14. I think I've seen it 103 times. Oh, my God.

I'm sorry. That's okay. It's not. You were discovering your sexuality. Okay. So here's the thing. I wasn't discovering my sexuality. No, I know that. The girl in the movie was. sexuality. Okay, so here's the thing. I wasn't discovering my sexuality. No, I know that.

The girl in the movie was. Right. Okay, but the weird thing, which I actually did not know until I saw the documentary, that that was their focus. That's what they wanted. They wanted to actually capture on film my awakening. Yes, they did. How pathetic is that?

First of all, how about directing and how about acting? Yeah. So, you know, that to me is so interesting and divisive that that was their perspective and how, I don't know, it just made me lose so much respect. Which you were not aware of. I was not aware of at all. This is with Christopher Atkins, who was older than you. He was 18, I think, at the time. Yeah, he was 18. And they wanted to make it be real. They wanted us to fall in love. And they clearly just didn't know me. I mean, I've always been pretty stubborn, but the more you push me into anything, the more I resist. And I did not, listen, I understand being sort of dictated to on camera. But with regards to my innermost feelings, somehow I was able to protect those.

How do you look at something like Blue Lagoon and Pretty Baby today? Have you watched it? I have only watched Pretty Baby today. Have you watched it? I have only watched Pretty Baby. And I've watched it multiple times. And it's why I wrote my thesis on it. Because I just think it's probably or possibly the only real, true, beautiful film I've ever been in. It's the only piece of art, I think, that I've gotten to experience in my film career

on so many different levels. And when I was older and writing about it, I was able to sort of really dissect it thematically, dissect it cinematically. And I just gained even more of an appreciation for it because the hours were so long. It was an arduous, hot shoot. hot shoot. And then on top of it, the uproar and the vitriol and the attack was so shocking and hurtful because nobody was talking about the film. They were talking about the implications and the societal impact, but they weren't talking about how beautiful the film was. Right. Well, there's a lot going on there. There's a lot of reasons why that would make people uncomfortable. I get it. I guess I just felt like it was a double standard. I mean,

I don't know. I felt like it was a true story. It was beautiful. And I felt protective of it. And the uproar was just so insulting and difficult for me to... But now on Endless Love, you said you felt uncomfortable. I felt uncomfortable because Zeffirelli was so dismissive. This is Franco Zeffirelli. Franco Zeffirelli. And now the stars of Romeo and Juliet are suing Paramount because they allege that he misled the two actors about nudity in a scene. Yeah.

Well, nothing shocks me about that. I'm sure he told the studio one thing, told the kids another, and then, you know, wanted to be an artist. Or is an artist. I don't take that away. God rest him. But I was uncomfortable because I was older, right? So I was 16 at this point. And I was uncomfortable with the way he spoke to me, the way he handled me.

There was nothing paternal. There was nothing kind. nothing paternal. There was nothing kind. It was all making fun of my voice and I was never going to be good enough. And he was fawning over the boy and I was just sort of like the workhorse. The vehicle. The vehicle. Yeah, the vehicle. And, oh, the beauty. Look at the the beauty and it was just sort of like really like that's it like that's what you're gonna go for when I had seen Romeo and Juliet and you know and I was a fan and then to be able to be in that yeah so he made you uncomfortable as to you like an object. As a person.

As a prop, really. As a prop and as a vehicle. And to me it was, maybe I didn't know it exactly then, but it was a missed opportunity. I mean, you know, I didn't have to do the nude scenes in Blue Lagoon or in Endless Love. But I had a body double, like all the swimming stuff when you see the butt and all that. Not me. I was always covered. My hair was taped down to my body. And so in Endless Love, all the close-ups and all the swimming stuff when you see the butt and all that not me I was always covered I my hair was taped down to my body and so an endless love all the close-ups and all the body stuff you if

you kind of really dissect it you don't really ever see and that was my mom and I think probably Franco Zeffirelli was disgruntled by that um let me ask you, you say a missed opportunity for what? What was the missed opportunity? I think he could have taught me more and shepherded me more in my talent. I think he could have brought more out. I think he could have directed me instead of just make fun of my voice. I think that director in particular, with that film, that film was a more nuanced, it was a darker, deeper story.

Blue Lagoon is pretty surfaced. They weren't pretending to be anything. So you haven't seen that movie in a long time. Blue Lagoon? I can't even listen to my voice. Zeffirelli would agree. But I just don't know if it, I don't think I'm that good in it.

I don't think. Okay. I just don't think I'm that good. I think I was genuinely good in Pretty Baby. And I feel that there was actual talent. There was actual talent. And these men, in particular, didn't nurture it, didn't. And they could have looked better. You know, Zeffirelli could have gotten an Academy Award out of me.

You know, I mean, I think that that's, and that's very vapid. I don't know if he was very interested. I think many of these people are selfish fucks, but that's different. That's my attitude. But in Calvin Klein ads, actually, when I rewatched them again, they're fantastic, but also disturbing. Also disturbing. At the same time, the way you move, you're apropos, you're funny, intelligent. Again, causing a lot of controversy at the time. And I remember this. I remember it very clear. And they did sell a lot of jeans. So how do you look at those ads then and how do you

see them now? I think they're as brilliant now as they were then. I think they were, you know, it shocked me that they were pulled. Again, it's sort of puritanical America. It's like there's such a double standard, but it was such a feather in my cap to be able to do those commercials well, to memorize a monologue that was a minute long, not easy to do while doing choreography. while doing choreography. So I went into, again, maybe compartmentalized or whatever that is, but again, there was zero discomfort. Now, I look at the commercials now, and I have watched them many times.

I understand the way it panned up and the way it did. You have an unbuttoned top. Nothing comes between me and my Calvin. You're very young. It was actually a rhetorical question. I get it. Do you want to know what comes between me and my Calvins? Nothing. And I used that phrase multiple times in my life.

I had a doll named Blabby, and I had a dog named Clipper, and I would say, nothing comes between, you know what? Nothing comes between me and my dog. Right, but in that case, I think they're talking about... Underwear? No underwear. Yeah, I do, I do. I think they're making that leap.

But, you know, everyone can have their own. But you know what? Again, the caliber of people. You've got Avedon. So it's sort of, I didn't, I was so proud of those commercials. Yeah. I wanted everything. So you were shocked again by

reaction by the fact that there was I was like that I'm not wearing underwear like you're gonna reduce this thing to not wearing underwear okay well it could be because of what came before it you had been objectified for years and maybe that's's why they chose me. I don't, I mean, who the hell knows? I happen to have looked that way. But it was just so, and I never have been the kind of person, like, I can't catch a break. But I do remember thinking, are you kidding me? Like, and it's not going to end. It's never going to end.

And I remember saying to myself, don't think that this is ever going to end. This is going to be, controversy is going to follow you. You've been labeled that person and you'll probably never escape it. Yeah. Well, and it also leached into the interviews. One of the things I found very impressive is the huge amount of poise that you had at a young age. It was really striking. Interviewers, especially mainly men, but also more than a few women, ask you a pretty inappropriate question. Here's a clip of one of those moments. You know, we've talked about this image that is portrayed in Brooke Shields, a sensuous, sexy woman-child image, and yet in your real personal life, you don't have that much freedom to just run around and do what you want to do. You don't date alone yet. Just like a regular kid, I don't really. I do every once in

a while. Well, it's going to be tough for me to walk away from here thinking of you as just a regular kid, I'm telling you. I think he's asking on a date there. I'm not clear. That was really creepy. And this sort of like, isn't she, is she not the most beautiful? Yes, yes, yes. And you're kind of going, what do you do with that? You can't do, you didn't do anything to get to look like that. You've done something that you're there for, which is a production of something or something. And then that's all that they can focus on. And you think, wow, when am I going to meet some smart people? All right.

But at one point in the Hulu documentary, you say, sometimes I'm amazed that I survived any of it. What did you mean by that? I don't know where I got that kind of poise from. I don't know where I got perspective. I really don't. Again, nothing was more important than keeping my mother alive. That's where you got your poise from.

I know many children of alcoholics, they are very, they know how to handle things. I don't know how else to say it. And you're constantly aware, you're vigilant. You can read a room, you know, and it's so interesting because if you look, I mean, obviously people are going to look at my face. Maybe you don't have to know me, maybe you do. face. Maybe you don't have to know me. Maybe you do. There was so much going on because when they cut to me, you can see my little baby 12-year-old brain making sure my mom's okay. Trying to focus on listening to this person, planning my answer, thinking about how I can't wait to go get fried chicken. It was like, whatever the thing was, my version of self-protection or survival was to constantly affirm that what I was in was not my real life. Right.

Which is, this is play acting. All of it was play acting or this is not my real life. This is not, I have a dog. I have friends. I had a horse. We were going to go to this Italian restaurant for dinner. So there were all these sort of things that were going on in my mind that it's why every time the director called cut, I would stick my tongue out or make a funny face because I wanted the world to know that that's not who I was, that I had a real life.

you're very kind to your mother in the documentary do you think she put you in situations you shouldn't have been in or do you feel regretful about that or any anger towards her and then having to deal with her drinking which is a disease i think the biggest situation that she put me in that was difficult to handle was her drinking i mean that that was such a pervasive reality in our whole lives together that that to me was the most damaging aspect of my life. It kind of, it made everything else pale in comparison. It's as if you couldn't really shock me. It just wasn't as important to me as her sober. And her sobriety was so, her moments of sobriety were few and far between. Yeah, you staged an intervention.

You talked about it. My first one. It didn't stick at all. No. an intervention. You talked about it. My first one. It didn't stick at all. No. And the interesting thing about that when I look back is when she said, I'll go, but I'm going for you, not me. I thought that was the best news in the world. I thought, yes, you've done it. You saved your mother and she loves you so much and you're going to make the difference while you talk to any child of an alcoholic or anybody. It's the kiss of death. Yeah, it is.

But me as a little 13-year-old girl, I was so proud and happy. That stuff is the stuff that is so sad to me about that. But see what you just said. You were a 13-year-old girl. I was a baby. You were a kid. You know, so did she push me into that? I mean, these movies that I did, they were the safest I ever felt. I had a whole team of people that needed to keep her alive to keep me alive. We had call sheets and rules and

regulations and timeframes and it was so safe. Just living with an alcoholic, you don't know one minute to the next. So the movies were a safe place for you versus being home? Yeah, they were four or five months at a time of predictability. And I knew that there were other babysitters to watch her. Right, right. And it wasn't you. No, and it wasn't all me and I wasn't alone. We'll be back in a minute. Support for this show comes from Constant Contact.

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independent attorneys and self-service tools. LegalZoom is not a law firm and does not provide legal advice except we're authorized through its subsidiary law firm, LZ Legal Services, LLC. Support for this show comes from Grammarly. 88% of the workweek is spent communicating, typing, talking, and going back and forth on topics until everyone is on the same page. It's time for a change. It's time for Grammarly. Grammarly's AI ensures your team gets their points across the first time, eliminating misunderstandings and streamlining collaboration. It goes beyond basic grammar to help tailor writing to specific audiences. Whether that means adding an executive summary, fine-tuning tone, or cutting out jargon in just one click. Plus, it surfaces relevant information as employees type, so they don't waste time digging through documents. Four out of five professionals say Grammarly's AI boosts buy-in and moves work forward.

It integrates seamlessly with over 500,000 apps and websites. It's implemented in just days, and it's IT approved. Join the 70,000 teams and 30 million people who trust Grammarly to elevate their communication. Visit grammarly.com slash enterprise to learn more. Grammarly. Enterprise ready AI. So one thing you did is you went to Princeton in 1983, which made headlines. I remember I grew up in Princeton. You walked out of your life to do this.

You were ascendant. What was the decision behind that? Just I have to get away from my mom or I'm not an idiot. I'm not just this creature. I am more than just what you see on the outside. And no one has been interested in anything I have to say or my opinion. And I have been put into this pretty category. And A, that's something I have nothing to do with. I wanted to prove to myself that I could be more, that I was more.

Because my brain was atrophying. You know, it was exhausted. It was, and, you know, I didn't want to leave my mother. I was desperate my first semester. I was so homesick. It was gut-wrenching. And I thought, okay, I can commute. Why don't I just live at home? Plus, if I wasn't at home, who was going to take care of her? So there was that piece.

And then I just, I wanted that feather in my cap. To show you're not the pretty one, not just the pretty one. And I kind of wanted to sort of say, fuck all of you, you know? Yeah, you think this? Well, guess what? Now I'm going to challenge you. Right. I always knew that there was so much more in me, you know? Which you wanted to prove by going to college. Well, I also wanted to, yes, prove, but that's also a bit ego-based. Like, who gives a shit, really? But what I wanted was I wanted my own time. I wanted my own thoughts.

And I wanted to sort of stop the noise. And I wanted to be normal. I didn't want Hollywood friends. You know, I wanted real people and I wanted diverse people. I wanted people from different lifestyles and thought processes and, you know, and I think that I just, I knew there was more.

You know, entertainment is a very sort of incestuous, it's, and it's small, it's very narrow, you know, and it's predicated on very sort of pathetic things, you know? Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. It's full of fear and loathing and insecurity. Yeah, and self-hatred and deprecation. And so it's like... And then you're done. And then you're over. You wrote this book, this memoir that was not, it was called On Your Own, but it wasn't on your own. It wasn't anything about you. No. And they screwed me over from day one. Yeah. Yeah. I liked the leg warmer part. That was my favorite. Oh, but I mean, it was so insulting to me. And I've been desperately trying to find that first chapter that I actually

penned myself. But that was just, that was such a moment where it's so interesting. That was so much more insulting to me than any of the other shit people wrote about me. This was in 85, you wrote this. And one of the big things that got a lot of attention is you said you were still a virgin and they marketed the hell out of that i was it was i was forever deemed yes and my kids were ivf so who knows yeah you never know you do um one of the things though when you did come out you write this thing and you were going to move into you thought you'd move into acting and higher level acting but as is the case with with Hollywood, they forget you right away. And so you were trying to get roles. And in this documentary, you talk about your Me Too moment of being sexually assaulted and being surprised. And you describe it in a way many people describe how this thing,

this kind of thing happens to them. And I want to play a clip from the documentary. This is when you're talking about the aftermath of the assault. I wanted to erase the whole thing from my mind and body and just keep on the path that I was on. And the system had never once come to help me, you know, so I just had to get stronger on my own. That's quite a line. The system never came to help me and I had to be stronger. This is something that plays throughout your career, really. So you were good at this.

I think it's common. I think especially where assault is. I just interviewed Dr. Nicole Bedera, who is a sociologist who studies the systematic abuse and sexual violence and the myriad of different ways that it shows itself. And she, you know, we talked about this. I did not know that my reaction was so common,

but she sort of broke it down for me. And one of the things that we discussed is that it is so rare that there are ramifications for the abuser and the perpetrator. And we've seen over time, now it's slightly different with the Me Too and with en masse women kind of that are able to be bonded together and fight X or this person or that person. But in that era and where

I was in my career, it would have been labeled a desperate plea and cry for fame and for notoriety. fame and for notoriety. And the actual issue of it would have been, I would have been victim shamed. I would have been, why did you go up to the room? Why did you- Which you were aware of at the time. I was totally aware of it. My career was in such a bad place and I was so embarrassed. I was just embarrassed by who I was as an actress, all the while having extreme fame. And the two did not make, they did not meet. And they were, it was demoralizing and devastating for me.

And all I wanted was to work. And I had to work for money. I mean, I needed money, but I also, it was where I was the freest and happiest. So by the time this moment in my life happened, I was vulnerable. I was weak. I was hungry for validation, attention, not really as much attention because I had enough attention, but possible creative opportunity. You have two daughters. I do. I have three sons and one daughter. I think about this a lot since I've had a daughter. And I have a three-year-old. A three-year-old. I can't tell

if I'm jealous or just like, oof. I have a one-year-old too. So anyway, I think about this a lot. She happens to be very pretty and i've noticed men the way they talk to her and it's certainly the first thing they say right so there's been a lot of change in the industry me too intimacy coordinators but our society hasn't like the hollywood has sort of shifted in terms of trying to protect women but social media it continues that idea it's it's hard to imagine that films like Pretty Baby and Blue Lagoon could be made now. Oh, I don't think they could. They'd have 30-year-olds playing 13-year-olds, right?

I don't think they could. I mean, my daughters sort of talk about that in the film. I mean, you couldn't make those movies now. Right. But how do you imagine, the society hasn't changed. Girls are becoming increasingly sexualized. When you look at social media, that hasn't changed. It feels like that. Do you consider your experience, if you could tell them something about it? It's so interesting because my younger daughter was very upset about the movie. I can see why. And she was upset about anything bad happening to her mommy. You know, and that I understand. I mean, that's, I get it. What's terrifying to me is that they think that they have control of it because they dictate their TikToks and their social media and all that. And their argument is, but it's on my terms and I'm doing it. But they don't seem to understand how it's feeding the monster. You know, on the one hand, they're all so righteous about, you know,

my body, my choice, yes, I agree with that wholeheartedly. But they think they're being feminists. They think that because they're controlling their image or they think they are, that somehow they're impervious to all of what's really happening and what hasn't changed. And that just, you know, I thought that the effect that the film would have on them, I thought it was going to be different for my younger girl.

I thought she would sort of take this and say, oh, wow, the world can be scary. I better take care of myself. And she, it was a different conversation. And it's a continuing conversation to try to really say to them. I mean, they still say things like once we had a conversation and that there were certain expectations from them from boys. And that to me was like a thousand steps back. Well, I'm going to be expected to do this if I do this.

I'm just thinking, no, no one gets to fucking expect anything from you or your body. And I'm, look at me, look at what was expected of me. And I fought through it and shut down and compartmentalized and, you know, that's not a way to live either, you know? So there was just, it worries me for them. I mean, I'm hoping for the best, but it does worry me that they don't, they don't fully get it. Yeah, I get it. But very last question, what would this Brooke say to that Brooke,

11 year old Brooke, when you're starting on this? Um, listen, Listen to yourself more and approve of yourself more. Don't look outside for other people's approval because they can't give it to you and they don't want to. No, I would say don't be such a good girl, Brooke. Oh, I don't mind being a good girl. You really are. And I don't mind it because isn't it amazing how much I still love what I do?

Like to be able to come through all this and not be so angry and jaded. Like I love being on a set. I'm going to Phuket for seven weeks, like to do another Netflix rom-com. And it's like, I'm like a little kid. To me, I didn't lose. That was not stripped of me. And it never will be. And I'm proud of that.

Well, let's end on that. Wow. Her points about the end, that her daughters, that really resonated with me, that her daughters feel they have agency and therefore it's safe, therefore can't be taken advantage of. But they are. And that was her point. I feel, I mean, that's really resonant. I feel that all the time. I feel I've been given a narrative of, oh, well, I have agency over this. This was my choice. Therefore, when things happen, when people have expectations, you feel like you're in control, even though you know, like bodily, you know, sometimes you're not in control. That's correct. It's a really difficult thing. I honestly think about it. I've talked to my

sons a lot about it, that idea of giving choice and what it means and what it doesn't mean. And you know, it's very difficult because of the way genders are still stuck in the same paradigms over and over again. Yeah. I don't know how that changes. I don't think it does. It must be, you could hear it in her voice just how scary that is for her having had her experience with her mother and wanting something different. This is very complex what happened to her, including with her mom. And I think that she's sticking with the idea of, you know, this is a little more complex than you think. It's an interesting way to

approach this. And I think she's so good at compartmentalizing, as she says herself. She thought it was all fake or playing or playing a role or whatever. Yeah. And also that this was a thing that saved her. Yes. That it took her away from that dangerous place of home. It gave her structure, predictability, care for her mother, a shared burden, right? And it's hard to see that as victimization when you get so much as well from that. Right, right, right. It's sort of a stuck. She said at one point, you know, I was extremely famous and extremely out of work. I mean, think about that. And the thing with her mom was the key part of this documentary, I thought. And, you know, it was well known that she had a drinking problem.

She talked about it over the many years. And so when you're looking at those clips, which are amazing, this archives is amazing of her. Her face blanks over and you could see her calculating what to say, even at 11 years old. Well, it shaped, I mean, her mother shaped her, sent her on the career path she was on. That poise and confidence. I mean, it's what Walter Isaacson told on the career path she was on. That poison confidence. I mean, that's what Walter Isaacson told us. Like, every story starts with a parent. He was talking about dads and their sons.

Yeah. Can be true of moms, too. 100%. You mentioned you think about this a lot with your daughter, with Clara. Mm-hmm. What do you take away from this that you would kind of go back and share with Amanda or go back and share with your daughter in a few years or, I don't know, 10 years? Well, I want her to think about having agency and what it actually means and what her dangers are, too, as a woman. I talk to you about my sons don't feel any sense of danger. They're big white guys in America, like, and they never feel unsafe. And so, I don't want her to be scared

of everything, but she's got to be aware. I do. I have had, you know, as she gets a little bigger, all men say things to her that I'm, and I'm not sensitive. I'm really not. Women and men remark on her prettiness. Yes. And I'm like, I sometimes want to say, you know, and I have to always go, and she's smart, but I feel even stupid saying that. It's just, I see it and I'm like, oh, pretty works really well. And I think she talked about this is she lived in the handsome bubble, the pretty bubble, and it advantaged her, but it also disadvantaged her. And so it was just, it was interesting. It's complicated. You don't want to feel sorry for the pretty girl, but you know. Yeah. You have to toe that line of being pretty, but not being a vehicle, not being not being art or just decorative

right right decorative yeah but certainly it's something that i think if you have beauty there's power in that and also uh being boxed in by that and if you're not quote conventionally pretty or obviously pretty as izzy said on gray's anatomy if you're not obviously pretty, you thirst for that as well, I think. And that is its own danger. Yeah, 100%. I mean, the power dynamics of this thing was fascinating in so many levels. And she's a very deep and complex person. And I think you don't think about Brooke Shields like that. You think of her like a billboard, and she's not a billboard. Yeah. I've had the opportunity to meet her at a couple of dinners or events and things like that and and meet her and see her and track with her daughter her eldest daughter um it was great and i think i mean you never know because you i think she's a

great mom and i think that she's she shows up just like she showed up in this interview kind of honest and and vulnerable present and very self-aware and able to see the kind of the joys of her life and the things that have been hard. She's clearly kind to her mother. She's very kind to someone who you could easily be angry at. But, you know, she has that bond. At the end of the day, it's still your mom. Yeah.

All right. Want to read us out, Kara? Yeah. Today's show was produced by Naeem Arraza, Blake Neshek, Kristen Castro-Rossell, Rafaela Seward, and Megan Burney.

Our engineers are Fernando Arruda and Rick Kwan. Our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, you get a pair of leg warmers. If not, you get a pair of my old leg warmers. Yes, I still have them. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On With Kara Swisher, and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from New

York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Thursday with more. Support for this show is brought to you by Nissan Kicks. It's never too late to try new things. And it's never too late to reinvent yourself. The all-new reimagined Nissan Kicks is the city-sized crossover vehicle that's been completely revamped for urban adventure. From the design and styling to the performance, all the way to features like the Bose Personal Plus sound system, styling to the performance, all the way to features like the Bose Personal Plus sound system. You can get closer to everything you love about city life in the all-new reimagined Nissan Kicks. Learn more at www.nissanusa.com slash 2025 dash kicks.

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