On with Kara Swisher - Charlamagne tha God on Trump, Journalism and that Anti-Trans Ad

Episode Date: November 21, 2024

Lenard McKelvey is a best-selling author, entrepreneur and media mogul, but you probably know him as Charlamagne Tha God: host of The Breakfast Club. It’s an insanely popular and influential radio program that reaches millions of listeners daily. Charlamagne has been behind the microphone for over a decade, and he's not one for playing by the rules of traditional media. In recent years he’s gotten vocal about the state of politics in the US and interviewed a raft of powerful politicians at the helm including former President Obama, President Biden and Vice President Harris. During the 2024 Presidential race, Charlamagne was an unofficial surrogate for the Harris-Walz campaign, but was arguably more effective as an inadvertent messenger for the Trump campaign’s anti-trans advertising.  Much like his approach to hosting, Charlamagne’s world views don’t stay within the lines of our polarized and partisan politics. He’s quick to remark on the faults of both parties and even quicker to call out the liberal media. In this episode, Kara and Charlamagne get into it all:  the importance of meeting people where they are, both in politics and in media; why authenticity matters more than accuracy and how Democrats don’t seem to understand that; what “mainstream media” means in 2024 and the role of “good” journalists; how he felt about getting dragged into a hateful ad for President-elect Trump and how he thinks VP Harris should’ve responded; the line between funny and offensive; and, most importantly, how to seek out joy and happiness through it all.  Questions? Comments? Email us at [e-mail] or find us on Instagram and TikTok @onwithkaraswisher Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Go to constantcontact.ca and start your free trial today. Go to constantcontact.ca for your free trial. Constantcontact.ca. Support for this episode comes from AWS. AWS Generative AI gives you the tools to power your business forward with the security and speed of the world's most experienced cloud. Support for All in with Kara Swisher comes from Elf Beauty. If you ever wondered what happens when a boardroom is a majority women, look no further than Elf Beauty. If you ever wondered what happens when a boardroom is a majority women, look no further

than Elf Beauty. Out of about 4,100 U.S. publicly traded companies, Elf is the only one to have a corporate board of directors that is 78% women and 44% diverse. They're making the best of beauty accessible to every eye, lip, and face and changing the board game while they do it. Visit elf.com backslash change the board game to learn more. Hi everyone from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network this is On with Kara Swisher and I'm Kara Swisher. My guest today is Leonard Larry McKelvey, also known as Charlemagne the God.

He's one of the hosts of The Breakfast Club, a bestselling author and a podcaster, media critic, media mogul and mental health advocate. He's also in the Radio Hall of Fame, has hosted multiple TV shows and he's interviewed a raft of politicians, including Vice President Kamala Harris, President Joe Biden, and President Barack Obama. I wanted to talk to Charlemagne for a lot of reasons.

I was on his show once. I thought he was excellent. I just find it really interesting all the directions he goes in in media. I don't agree with him all the time, but what he's doing is really creative and interesting for a media figure these days. And I always like to talk to those people. And he also had some impact on the election in both positive and negative ways.

No matter what you think of him, and he doesn't care either way, by the way. Charlemagne has tremendous sway in the world of politics and pop culture, and he always has a sharp opinion. He's also a great entrepreneur, which I always love. Our expert question comes from Nicholas Kwa, a staff writer for Vulture and New York Magazine, who's been writing about podcasts for about a decade. So let's get to it.

How are you doing? I haven't seen you since I was on your show. I know. I see you all the time. I see you every Sunday morning. Oh. Saturday morning. Saturday. Yeah.

Yeah. Anyway, thank you so much. I'm actually glad we're doing this after the election. It's actually a lot better. And I know you hate small talk, so let's just dive right in. So just overall, how are you liking the Trump transition? Cabinet choices, Alonia, Musk, Matt Gaetz, making RFK eat a Big Mac and fries. What stands out? What are you surprised by? Yeah, I mean, it's interesting, right? As of right now, it looks like he's making

all the wrong choices. But I guess that is feeding into his whole outsider thing. You know, it's like the old drain the swamp thing that he ran on in 2016. And, you know, if they're a administration that's looking to make major change, they don't want to have any of the, I guess, old DC type around. So they're trying something new. But, you know, the interesting thing for me is like, I'm not wishing on them to fail. Yeah, you said that on Daily Show. Yeah, I hope that this works. I don't think it will, but you know, I'm hoping that it does. I don't know.

Is there anything you're surprised by? I mean, RFK eating the Big Mac was my moment of favorite because it's sort of like a drug dealers making the cop take the drugs so that they know if they're a cop or not kind of thing. Man, if we're... Like on training day when Alonzo was like, try it. Smoke it, smoke it, smoke it. For me, man, if we're still surprised by anything concerning Donald Trump, then we have really, really, really normalized Trump in ways that I can't even explain anymore.

So, I mean, there's no such thing as being surprised. This is what we expect. The surprise is gonna come when he does something relatively normal. Like I said on The Daily Show the other night, like if he just... Play golf. Yeah, do the opposite of everything

your political opponents say you're gonna do. Like just completely do the opposite. Don't prove them right. Just be a regular Republican, you know, president who, you know, ruins the economy, leads us into recession. I can deal with that. Do you have any reason to believe he'll do that?

Or is it just wishful thinking on your part or hope? That is a great question. I think it is just wishful thinking on your part or hope? That is a great question. I think it is just wishful thinking. I think it is just hope. I think it is just optimism. Because I think the things that we have all felt, oh no, forget the things that, I'm about to say the things that we all feel

like he's gonna do. No, the things he's actually said he's going to do are too terrifying for any American to even wrap their brain around. So it's like, I have to have, you know, optimism. I have to have hope because, you know, anything else is too terrifying to even think about. And, you know, people love to say

that we have Trump derangement syndrome. Yeah. We only have that because of the things that he said. Yeah, because he's deranged, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He said things, he's done things. We watched him,. Yeah, because he's deranged. Yeah. Yeah. He said things. He's done things. We watched him lead an attempted coup in his country.

We've heard him say he wants to jail his political opponents. He wants to jail journalists. We've heard him say these things. I was having this conversation last week with somebody and they was like, oh, he just says all of these things to rile voters up. He stirs up waters to catch fish. I hope so. Yeah. You got it. You got everything you want now, right? You got all three branches of government. You got the presidency. Hopefully that's enough. But you asked him not to be a fascist, right? I mean, is there a worry that they will actually,

I'm a Maya Angelou girl. So I'm like, if someone says somebody shows who they are, believe them. Yeah, I'm that person. I've always thought about that with him. Is there one worry that you have the most or not at all? Or is there many multifaceted worries? I mean, many. I don't even know what that... I only have a history to look to when we're talking about authoritarian regimes, right? And I haven't read one that I can say to myself,

oh, you know what? This will be okay. Yeah. Like, this is something I want my kids to grow up in. Like, no, this is America. Like, the reason that you have people risking their life, you know, to come across the border is because this is supposed to be the land of milk and honey. Like, you know, there's a certain creed that this country, you know, has that has benefited so many of us.

And to see that taken away, or to see the potential of that being taken away is like, that's terrifying. Yeah, you know, on this week's show with Andrew Schultz, he's like your Scott Galloway, it's interesting. But what he was saying is he wanted you to admit you were wrong, but you said, I still like, meaning you want everything to work out, right?

You said, I like America, not him, essentially. That's the message you were trying to put out. And that's how I feel. Yeah. So once the election was over, though, you did criticize the Harrison Biden for dropping the rhetoric around Trump being dangerous and fascist, but you were also calling for peace and unity. Talk about why that's different from what they did.

And I know you said they're politicians. You're just a guy. Well, you're a powerful guy, but. Well, I'm not the president of the United States of America, and I'm not the vice president of the United States of America, and I'm not a former joint chief of staff. Like, I feel like when they say those things,

it holds a whole lot of weight. And the problem I have a lot of times with the Democratic Party is like, you know, they don't stand for nothing and they don't stand on anything. So it's like, if you went so hard, Dave, he's a fascist, you know, he's a threat to democracy.

I'm talking about literally a day before the election. And then right when the election is over, it's like, welcome back to the White House, you know, peaceful transition of power. It's like, welcome back to the White House, peaceful transition of power. It's like, so what happened to all of that fascist talk? And see, that's part of the normalization of Donald Trump, because there's people who already didn't believe

any of the rhetoric that they were spewing. And now that they've backed up off of it, they definitely don't believe it. What would you have him do? You were joking about giving him kombucha instead of Diet Coke, but what would you have him do? Well, I would have President Biden say, hey, look, I am a person who still believes

in the Constitution, I believe in democracy. This is what the Constitution says we should do, have a peaceful transition of power. But please, let me remind you of who this person is. Like, they should have took that time while they were in the White House. He should have been having that conversation to Donald Trump like that.

Like, like, he's still... Publicly. Publicly. He's still, he's still Trump's elder statesman, right? And he's been in government for so long, he should have, I don't want to say scolded, but yeah, he should have at least lectured Trump on the things that he's been saying

and the things he does not want to see him do, you know, when he becomes the 47th president of the United States of America. Yeah, and you just saw Joe and Mika Brzezinski go down to Mar-a-Lago. I'm not mad at anyone who's covering the president-elect. I'm not mad at anybody who's covering the president of the United States of America.

I think we should, you should be covering him. You should be having conversations with him. Because if you were the people that have been on the air or on TV or on radio or on podcasts challenging him, you should be challenging him to his face. I do not like people who, you know, have conversations about folks, but don't have conversations to folks or with folks.

Especially when you have the opportunity to do so. So I think that any of those individuals, especially in media, you know, yes, you should be sitting down there having conversations with him, but you have to challenge him and you have to continue to remind people and remind him of the things that he said, and tell him, hey, we didn't forget you did this.

And we don't want the American people to forget you did these things and said these things either, but it's up to you to prove us wrong. What's the line between covering and kowtowing though, you know, in terms of, there's all kinds of things he's threatened networks, for example. I think it's impossible for them not to kowtow, in terms of there's all kinds of things he's threatened networks, for example. I think it's impossible for them not to cowtowel

because they were cowtowing before he won. That's why you see Fox News, they've been on the Trump gravy train forever, right? And then MSNBC is kind of, they're completely on the other side. CNN has really tried to toe the line in a lot of ways. And I think everybody was dreading this moment. Like, everybody was trying to play nice just in case

he became president of the United States of America again. And now that he has, I don't know if anybody's going to ever truly cover him honestly on cable news. What would you do if you get an interview? What would you want to focus in on? on what he does, right? Well, no I think if I was to interview him now I think you still have to you have to question him on everything that he said that caused people to label him Fascist that caused people, you know to say he is an authoritarian

Like you have to just bring all of those things to the forefront. You have to ask him about these statements that he made. What did you mean when you posted on Truth Social, you want to terminate the constitution or overthrow the results of the election? If that wasn't a coup on January 6th, what do you call it? What do you mean when you say you want to do mass deportations?

You have to question him on all of these things. Don't you think mass deportations will cripple the economy in a lot of ways? Don't you think that's cruel and unusual punishment? What did you mean when you said you wanted to turn the guns on Liz Cheney? There's a bunch of different things that you could be questioning the president about. So you went hard at CNN on Anderson Cooper. You said we talk about him, meaning Trump, being a threat to democracy, we don't treat him like one. And you said journalistic integrity has been lost. I'd love you to just, after this, I saw it in everything else, but I saw a ton of great reporting all over, maybe not by Anderson Cooper, but a lot of great reporting, Susan Craig, all these things on bad acts, bad behavior.

It didn't make a dent. It did, like, as good as it was. Some of it was quite excellent. I wanna, I'm glad you asked me about that, because that wasn't personal towards Anderson. I was just speaking about the media as a whole, and I even, you know, me and Angela Ryan, we were on, we kept saying that to Anderson,

like, we're not necessarily talking about you. But you're sitting here Yeah, you know, so for me, it's just something that I've seen Over the almost last decade when it comes to Trump like it's a normalization of him Like nobody ever speaks to Donald Trump like the threat that they that they say he is like ever Like they talk about him like he's just a regular, run of the mill presidential candidate. And he's not.

And it's interesting to me how we know they can villainize and demonize people when they want to because it's easy for them to do to the others. Like they'll villainize and demonize, you know, the vice president for, you know, somebody else saying that she's not black. Right, right, right. For somebody else saying that she's a DEI hire.

And they'll have those conversations, you know, ad nauseam are another thing that I see on CNN a lot. Sometimes they'll have a conservative on a panel, and they'll be having a discussion that they need to have about something. But then this conservative will just come with something so wild and crazy just to derail the whole conversation. You speak of Scott Jennings. I believe you speak of Scott Jennings.

Scott Jennings, the Kevin O'Leary, I think, from Shark Tank. Well, he's the less smart version of Scott Jennings. But it's like, yo, and you know, it's interesting because I think Scott does bring a lot of good points sometimes, but sometimes I'm just sitting there watching and I'm like, you just threw a grenade on the table for no reason. Oh, the guy that was on there when Mehdi Hassan was on there

and he just, you just throwing a grenade to throw one. Yeah, that's exactly right. It just derails the whole conversation. So a lot of times there's conversations that need to be had amongst smart people who are there in good faith, right? Because you can't have bad faith conversations. You can't have bad faith arguments. If you want to have a good faith debate, sure.

A lot of times y'all are there having good faith debates and then boom. Right. Well, that's the point. It's entertainment. Scott told me in a break, this is like wrestling. And I said, step away from me before I smack you across the face. You know what I mean? I was like, God, I hate you. Anyway, I don't hate him.

But one of the things is there has been great reporting. It just doesn't make a dent. I mean, I'm thinking of a lot of wide-ranger reporters I've interviewed that had devastating recounts that didn't matter. I mean, the same thing with Matt Gaetz over and over again, that doesn't seem to touch him in some way. Well, I think that Donald Trump, he really is Teflon Don.

And I think he's unique in the sense that he's more sincere about his lies than Democrats are about their truth. And I think that he speaks to people's grievances in a way that Democrats don't necessarily. It's not that Democrats don't care about the things he cares about. Of course Democrats care about the economy. Of course Democrats care about the border. They just don't speak to it in the way that Trump does. Trump would straight up be like, hey, the reason y'all

don't got no money is because the money's going over here to all of the illegal immigrants. Hey, the border, y'all need to build the wall. They're coming over here, they're bringing their words, they're raping you, they're killing you. It's like, whoa, it's just as crude as it may sound, it's simple. Yeah. And it sticks. It's also a grain of truth in everything.

And he says it over and over and over and over. I think that's one thing that you're speaking to. It's like, you can have this great reporting, but number one, who's amplifying it, and number two, who's saying it over and over and over so it sticks. Talk about the normalization, though. You've said Trump is dangerous because he's funny on your podcast.

You have a comedian co-host who is funny and does a great job selling Trump as a great patriot. But is there something wrong? I listen to podcasts, I was just listening to this last one you just did. And there's distinctly both sides are corrupt vibe, right? Everybody sucks. Talk about being a professional contrarian,

because a lot of these podcasts are that. It's sort of this cynical attitude, like you all suck. I don't think Andrew's being a professional contrarian. I've known Andrew long enough to know that's truly how he feels. Like he's a liberal from Manhattan who over the years you know, has gravitated towards, you know, some of the rhetoric that's coming from the right.

And I think a lot of it, especially when you're a comedian, a lot of it has to do with cancel culture, because let's be honest, liberals do have a way of eating their own, right? And liberals do have a way of, you know, taking the one worst moment from a person and then amplifying that and just trying to, you know, do everything in their power to get that person out of here.

And I think that turns a lot of people off. And I think sometimes in a lot of ways, our common sense has been threatened, right? Like I saw something that was to, it was Seth Moulton from Massachusetts. I saw what he said about how, you know, Democrats were easily offended by everything. And you know, he spoke, I'm paraphrasing here,

but he said something like, I should be able to say, hey, I don't want my daughter playing sports against a male athlete, getting run over by a male athlete. I should be able to say that and not be crucified for it. I'm paraphrasing what he said, but that's essentially what he said. And I think a lot of people feel like that. Here's my issue, is they make it a bigger issue than it is.

Why is this suddenly the biggest issue of our lives? Right? And they're not doing it because they care, they're doing it because it works. That's you know what I mean? It's like- Well, I would say this, are they making it the bigger issue or did Democrats make it the bigger issue? Because when you have somebody like Joe Biden tweet out trans rights is the civil rights

issue of our lifetime, right? Like he said that. He did, but like then you have Jim Justice over in West Virginia when asked, after they spent all this time passing laws on these issues, asked how many instances there were, there was zero. So it's kind of, I think it gets used, the bathroom thing didn't work and so they moved to this.

Obviously, a fairness issue is an important issue. I just, I think it gets, this isn't the biggest issue of our time and it's become that, but I think it represents something else, right? It's that you don't get to say what you want, right, without a price, correct? Oh, I'm fine with that. I believe in freedom of speech, but I also believe that you're not free from the consequences of that speech. But I just feel like, and that's actually one of the reasons I wrote the book, Get Honest to Die Line, Why Small Talk Sucks, because we just live in a world that makes these micros macros.

And everybody always listens. They listen to me when I talk about the micros turning into macros. But the other part of that is we don't even know how to discuss macros anymore. Right. We don't know how to discuss the economy. We don't know how to discuss the economy. We don't know how to discuss the border issue. We'll label certain things liberal or Republican based on what the issue is and what the talking points are. I remember back in January,

I was doing an interview with Fox News and the digital guy over there, Joseph, asked me a simple question. He said, do I think the border is going to be an issue come November? And I said, yes, hell yes, because for the first time in my life, I'm hearing people in my community complain about what's going on at the border.

I got activist friends in Chicago who are telling me, man, it's crazy out here. Not only are they taking over our neighborhoods, they're getting resources that we've never even gotten. When I got a parking attendant in New York City who I see every day come to me in tears talking to me about, you know, MF13 taking over his neighborhood and he knows it's because of the border. This isn't a, these are white MAGA people.

These are black and brown people in the hoods of America having these conversations with me. So when I expressed that and said to Fox News, what I'm hearing, MSNBC runs the headline, Charlemagne the God is pushing MAGA messaging. That's not MAGA messaging. And I think that's where a lot of Democrats failed on that issue. I do.

Although everything is like a headline versus a real thing, right? They don't want to talk about the actual issues. One of the things though I have noticed in the last couple of weeks is this, I call it a sore winner kind of tendency. Um, did you see the NFL players doing the Trump dance? The Trump dance. Oh, you know, when Trump does that weird dance, it looks like he's jacking off two horses.

Bill Maher says, yeah, he's jacking off two. It really does. It kind of fits it. There's a lot of that. There's a lot of running around saying, you know, absolutely, I argue this, but this was Scott Galloway. They won, and then the right places, but the numbers keep getting tighter and tighter, right? It's 49.2 versus 48.7, right? It's not a huge difference. It's half and half, which creates a problem, right? Do you think there's gonna be overreach on that part like sort of you know, the idea of it? No

No, because the win is a win and you know Democrats would have been doing the same thing if Vice President Kamala Hire as one. Yeah, they would have been like sports. Yeah, they'd have been spiking the football too They would have definitely been celebrations because it would have been historic right the first woman President the first woman of color president like they would have better been celebrations because it would have been historic, right? The first woman president, the first woman of color president, like they would have absolutely Better dancer. Better dancer property. By far. There would have definitely been a celebration of the vice president.

One, people would have been celebrating the end of the Trump era. We know that's over. Like, yeah, the democracy is still restored. There would have definitely been a lot of reason to celebrate if vice president come as it once. I'm not mad at them for that. But the Manosphere is having a good time these days. You know, Joe Rogan, Theo Vaughn, Andrew, stuff like that. Are you part of the Manosphere?

Do you consider yourself part of the Manosphere? No, I'm not part of the Manosphere. I am a man, but I'm not part of the Manosphere. But you know what's so interesting about those three that you named? I don't even think you should put them in the manuscript. Oh, all right. Okay. I really feel that way. I feel like Andrew...

I don't know Theo Vaughn personally. Of course, I know Andrew personally as a good friend of mine. Joe, I know pretty well because of Andrew. But just listening to Joe over the years, he's really just a curious person. Like if you listen to his show consistently every week for the past 15 years, he's really just a curious individual.

He doesn't really have like a particular ideology about anything. He's really just a person that likes to sit down and ask questions. He was a Bernie bro. Yes, he was. He was back in Bernie Sanders at one point. He's also curious about conspiracy theories,

but go ahead, go ahead. But we all are. And then there was a time, and this was something I was even telling the Kamala Harris's campaign, the same way Donald Trump manipulated me and used me in his ads, he could have did the same thing with Joe Rogan.

Joe Rogan said that Trump was a threat to democracy. Joe Rogan said he felt like Trump might be unstable. And like, why didn't you use that in your ad? So I think Joe is a, I think he's a fair person if you sit down and have a conversation with him. So you don't think they had any responsibility for that? I mean, this idea that everything was up to the Manosphere that Trump won because of that. Oh no, I idea that everything was up to the Manosphere that Trump won because of that.

Oh, no, I think that Trump doing that podcast run on all of those different podcasts definitely impacted because, and I said this on Brilliant Idiots last week, Trump won after a demographic that people never talk to, which is poor white people. I'm from South Carolina. My first white friend, his name is Thomas Evans. That's still my friend to this day. We just, we didn't know black and white. We just knew poor. We grew up poor on a dirt road

in Montecote in South Carolina. I know those type of people. He spoke, you know, directly to them, right? And then, and then this go around, he spoke directly to young males, in particular, young white males and both of those different demographics, right? The poor people in rural areas and the young white males in 2024, like they don't, those

are blocks that people say don't vote. So he energized enough of them that I think that, you know, it's caused, it caused impact. So I don't think, yeah, you got to give the mandatory credit for this, this election cycle. One of the things you wrote in Get Honest or Die Lying, you had a quote that says, change culture and you change lives, right? And the Manistere podcast helped, for lack of a better word,

I hate, I'm not gonna say the word again, helped change culture and make Trump seem cool to young guys, but is there a responsibility beyond just being curious or not? Not in those spaces. I'm not looking to Theo Vaughn to challenge Donald Trump. I'm looking for Theo Vaughn to beat Theo Vaughn with Donald Trump. I'm looking for Andrew Schultz to be Andrew Schultz with Donald Trump.

I'm looking for Rogan to be Rogan with Donald Trump. I think that is why legacy media still matters so much, because legacy media is the ones that have to challenge Donald Trump and hold Donald Trump accountable. So not these guys. I don't think so. Like, that's like saying, you know, going on late night television, do you expect, like, Jimmy Fallon to hold him?

I remember when Jimmy got in trouble, because Jimmy shook his hair, and everybody was saying, oh, you're normalizing Trump. But it's like, I don't look for Jimmy Fallon to do him. I remember when Jimmy got in trouble because Jimmy shook his hair and everybody was saying, oh, you're normalizing Trump. But it's like, I don't look for Jimmy Fallon to do that. Yeah, I see. That's a fair point. So that's it's into the question. We get an expert to send a question for our guests and let's hear yours. Hi, Cheryl Amane. I'm Nicholas Kwa, a staff writer at New York Magazine and Vulture. I've written a bunch about a podcast world over the past decade.

One of the bigger narratives from this election cycle is the sense of conflict between traditional and non-traditional media. The Trump campaign seemed to understand more intuitively that they were working with a media environment where no one consumes the same things any longer. Much more so than the Harris campaign, at least, which seemed to operate with the assumption that the old media institutions still held the bulk of power. As an old-school broadcaster, who's also a podcaster, and who generally practices a full-court press approach to your profession, to what extent do you share the interpretation that what we saw in this cycle is the continuing

decline of mainstream media in general and the rise of a media culture where there's no mainstream? Or do you see it differently? Do you see podcasts like the Joe Rogan Experience as a new mainstream? Something else? Thank you for your time. That's a good question. It's a fantastic question.

I think that there's multiple screams. Like, you know, I think there may not be a mainstream, there might be a legacy media scream,. There might be a legacy media scream, then there might be a new media scream. And I don't even know if you can call somebody like Rogan new media. Rogan's been around for 15 years. Like, you know, me and Andrew Shost,

we've been doing our Bruin It Is podcast for 12 years. So we've been around. I think that Kamala Harrison, I disagree with something that he said. I feel like the vice president actually did what you should do, which is meet people where they are. Like we live in a world now where back in the day we would say if you build it, they would come.

But now you got to meet people where they are. I feel like she met people where they were. Maybe she didn't go to enough places, but you saw her on the Call Her Daddy podcast. But then you also saw her on The View. You saw her on Club Shae Shae with Shannon Sharp. But then you also saw her on Fox News with Brett Baer. I feel like she did, she tried to do it all. Trump was exclusively, you know, with the podcast, but I think that what we fail to

realize is Trump has been campaigning for a decade. Yep. Well, no. And prior to that, he's just been a big star since the 80s. So he doesn't have to necessarily do the main screen press, but he still does because he still taps in to Fox News. He still taps into conservative talk radio. So it's not like he wasn't doing both as well. And I think that's what we're gonna see moving forward. You just gotta find people who know how to do

a healthy balance of both. Like I take my radio show, for example example the Breakfast Club. We do broadcast every morning on terrestrial radio We have 8 million monthly listeners wearing 104 markets if you're just listening on the radio But then we take that show and put it out as a daily podcast and that show goes out on YouTube and that show goes Out on social media. So you have to meet people where they are. So in the future, that's what you're gonna see. You're just gonna see people, more people meeting folks where they are. You can't be a presidential candidate

and have a bunch of people telling you, just go to The View, just go do Stephen Colbert, just go do Fox News, which for whatever, that was a reach for them. I thought they should have been doing way more Fox News, honestly. But I think you're gonna see people mixing it up and I think that's the best way to do it.

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resulting in a healthier, more robust, and competitive tech ecosystem. Learn more at severalnines.com slash Kara. There's been endless punditry on the Democratic's failure. If you had to like, I don't want to retread old grounds. It's worth getting your thoughts though, because you ended up having an unintended, as you noted, role in Trump's media strategy, despite being somewhat of an unofficial surrogate for Harris. You've said that she talks like a politician.

I do believe people didn't get to know her as well, and he's so well known. So I thought she did pretty well given the situation. Who sounds authentic to you? Do you think anyone would have had a better chance of beating Trump? Oh, yeah. Such as? Well, I want to say, I think that the VP showed a lot of flashes of her authentic self while she was running.

You know, I just think, you know, people didn't see it enough, but I think there's a lot of people. I think Gretchen Whitman, Governor Gretchen Whitman. Big Gretch. You know what I'm saying? If you read her book, which I have upstairs, I thoroughly enjoyed it. It's a quick read.

And the thing that she starts the book off letting you know is she likes dirty humor. She does. And you hear it throughout the book. And if you've ever sat down and interviewed with her, like she's just kicking it. Like, you know, she's clearly the governor, but you can just tell,

like there's a very authenticness about her that's just very relatable. I think Governor Shapiro, too. I think he's very polished, and, you know, we make the joke that he's Barack Obama. But it's like... But he's still, like, there's an authenticness to him. I think Congresswoman Jasmine Crockett,

I think Governor Wes Moore, I think Governor Wes Moore to a certain extent, I like Wes too, but you know, I think that there's a lot of people who really do speak the language of the people. And I think Democrats cannot be afraid to do that moving forward. I'm not a fan of Gavin Newsom, but I'm a fan of his scrap. Oh, one more, Secretary Pete too.

I think Secretary Pete, and he's been, one thing I give Secretary Pete a lot of credit for, Secretary Pete has never stopped coming to Breakfast Club. He comes to Breakfast Club when it's not election season. And I think that's something that the audience likes. They're like, okay, this person isn't just coming around when they're trying to get us to vote for him. He's coming around because he really cares that we care about what they're doing.

But back to Gavin Newsom, I'm not a fan of him. I'm not a fan of any politician, but I like his media strategy. I like that he goes on Fox News. I like that he has a podcast with Marshawn Lynch right now. Because I think those are the things that help a person build an audience outside of the bubble of the Democratic Party.

You're almost like a boxer. You gotta get out there. He called me when he was doing this. I said, just get out there and start talking. That's it. Even if you stay stupid things. I like Vice President Harris a lot, and I've known her since she was a district attorney.

And I never thought she genuinely got out there in the way I happen to know her, because she's very funny and other things. And I think it's hard for her to do that. She's a cautious person. So do Democrats have to take more risks? I think Donald takes risks like crazy. He took a risk on Musk.

He takes a risk even when he says shitty things, that's a risk, right? But there's no, it's very clear who he is. That's the thing. I've said this for years. The language of politics is dead because Donald Trump killed it. And so when you have these people who have the experience, who have the intelligence to articulate themselves in great ways, just go out there

and trust yourself to do it. Like you said, I've spent personal time with the vice president. I love hearing her laugh. I genuinely love hearing her laugh because she is a person that likes to laugh, right? So it's like, you don't have to be all buttoned up anymore. That's not the world we live in

and we live in a world where people sniff that out. Like, they know you're being a politician. Like, they know that you may not necessarily believe what's coming out of your mouth, but you're saying it because that's what you sat around with your team and that's what y'all came up with to say. Like, no, like just go out there and have a real authentic conversation.

You know one thing about the vice president that I think that hindered her a lot, she is like the incredible hope. She is at her best when she's angry. Yeah, but she can't be, she said it to me. She says, she can't be angry and I'm not allowed to. Because she's a woman and she's a black woman and it's the whole angry black woman stereotype.

But man, was this year or the last couple of years not the time for women to be furious? Roe v. Wade was overturned. Women's reproductive rights are under attack. All of these old men are trying to tell women what to do with their bodies. If there was ever a time for women to be furious publicly, now was the time and everybody would have understood and if they didn't, fuck them. Yeah, that's true. She did Joyful Warrior. I don't think there's any such thing, in my

opinion. So one of the things, as you said, you were an effective spokeswoman for the Trump campaign. They used a clip from the Bracken's clubs and one of their ads. Let's hear it so people remember it. And I'd love to get your reaction to it. Common support, taxpayer-funded sex changes for prisoners. Surgery. For prisoners. For prisoners. Every transgender inmate in the prison system would have access.

Hell no, I don't want my taxpayer dollars going to that. Kamala supports transgender sex changes in jail with our money. Kamala even supports letting biological men compete against our girls in their sports. Kamala is for they, them. President Trump is for you. I'm Donald J. Trump and I approve this message. This ad was everywhere. You filed, just to be clear, a cease and desist, but it didn't stop them from using it and making it one of the centerpieces of their closing messages. And you and Andrew discussed it on Brilliant Idiots.

Talk a little bit about what happened here. Yeah, I mean what happened was I was reacting to the commercial because that commercial Was it there was a commercial that was just like that before it was myself and my co-host DJ envy in it And so what I was explaining to my listeners was what I saw that weekend I was like yo did y'all see that commercial that came on during the football game and I said Kamala Harris wants to support You know whatever with your taxpayer dollars I was repeating what I saw in the commercial right and then I was like, yo

If you're sitting there watching that when you sitting back watching football at first thing you think is hell No, I don't want my taxpayer dollars going to that. So it wasn't like we were saying Kamala Harris supports Gender reassignment surgery. I want to use your taxpayer dollars for gender reassignment surgery for MH. Or like Trump said, you go to high school one day and you come back a woman, like, you know, that ridiculous. Man, they took it and they ran with it. And, you know, from what they said,

it was the most impactful commercial of his campaign. How do you feel about that? Ooh, it's not a good feeling. It's one of those things where like you get around people and you think that they're whispering about you. That's the guy who caused Kamala Harris her campaign. Like that's literally what people are saying, even though that's not true.

Like there's no one thing that caused her campaign. And also, you know, I support the vice president, not just as a elected official. Like she's somebody I really do consider a friend. Like, you know, I knew, I know her and her sister, Maya. I met Maya back in 2015 when she was working with Hillary Clinton. And then I met the vice president in 2018.

That's the first time I had her on Breakfast Club and she was still a Senator. So she's somebody that I not just interview, I have conversations with. And the thing that really bothers me the most about the commercial is they didn't do anything to combat it. Right.

And to me, it wasn't a hard thing to combat because that piece of legislation was also legislation under Donald Trump. You know where I learned that from? From the vice president. And I learned that from other people who started writing, the New York Times did a great article about it,

you know, about that ad he ran, but also how that was a piece of legislation under him. If I was the Harris campaign, I would have ran the same commercial with the same rhetoric. It would have just said, Donald Trump wants to use your taxpayer dollars for gender reassignment surgery for inmates.

Like, cause confusion in the marketplace. Because it makes you seem anti-trans, that's for sure. I can see that. But I would have ran the same commercial. I would have literally, I would have ran the same commercial. I would have just flipped it on, on Donald Trump if I was them.

But they didn't do anything. Like I even asked her about it when she called into the breakfast club. Because when I interviewed her in Detroit, we were supposed to have a conversation about it, but then decided not to, because I guess it was still kind of early and people didn't realize how big that commercial

would end up being. And so when she called in the Breakfast Club, I asked her about it. And she just was like shrugging it off as just misinformation, you know? But I think that that was a mistake. It should have been really combated. I'm not sure anyone would believe, you know, it's an easy thing to twist, given people's feelings on this issue are more emotional than logical.

I mean, that is very true, but she answered it flawlessly on Fox with Bear Bear. But it's like, once again, there was nobody to amplify that and say it over and over and over and over and over. So when you think about that, when you think about your impact then, is that, you know, do you worry about, you talked a little bit about cancel culture and comics. I don't think they're quite as canceled as you think. I think sometimes they overdo it, right? Like, for example, as you make a ton of gay jokes on the pod, and I love comedy,

there isn't a lesbian joke you can offend me with, I don't believe, maybe, I doubt it. I like them. But do you worry, for example, about that, about doing that anymore? Do you think you're hindered? You know, everybody has a different take on it. Yeah, I make gay jokes for two reasons.

Number one, because people, I like, people for whatever reason love Yeah, I make gay jokes for two reasons. Number one, because people, I like, people for whatever reason love to say I'm gay. Yeah. Which is, you know. I've heard that. Yeah, so I do that, I do that just to really mess with them. But also, man, I like to make men uncomfortable. Because if you're so secure in your sexuality, why does certain conversations make you uncomfortable?

Right? Why do certain jokes make you uncomfortable? Like, you know, we like to do pause in our community, right? Like pause, like pause. If somebody says something that is considered gay, you say pause. But it's like, it's like, it's like after a while, it's like, all right, I get it, but some of the pauses are ridiculous.

It's like if I'm drinking water and I take a sip, somebody goes, pause. It's like, all right, come on, knock it off. So a lot of times I do it just to really make, I do it to make people feel uncomfortable. Do you think there are some things that are finally let's move along You certainly, I was watching, of all things, Three's Company. Remember that show a million years ago? Do I? Not only do I remember that show, I have a very, very, very, very fond memory of that show. Don't go watch it again then.

Because you won't when you watch it. You're like, whoa, date rape is good, right? Like, I know it sounds crazy. Oh, that was the whole 80s, though. That was the 80s. Right. I get it. But now, I thought it was funny at the time, too. And then when I went back, I'm like, yeah, maybe not.

Maybe that wasn't so cool. But I don't know what it's because today is we know more or whatever. Do you think things lose their funniness? Or do you think there is too much of a, you should be able to joke about anything? I know the Bro comics think you should be able to joke about anything. I'm using the word bro broadly.

I think there's an overton window. And here's the thing about all of those comics, all of those comics got a line. They got personal things that they don't wanna joke about. They act tough with everybody else, but every single one of them has something that will push a button in them to make them be like, all right, that's enough, right?

But you know, the problem is they don't have that empathy with other people sometimes. Right. And do you worry about that if, say, a young gay person listens to your podcast and hears the jokes? Do you think about it or not? Yes, because my intention is never to offend.

I would hope that people are laughing with us, and I hope we're all laughing with each other. If one of my gay friends or somebody gay was to come to me and tell me, hey man, I didn't like when you said X, Y, and Z, or that offended me. I'm not going to be like, oh man, I'll F you. It was just a joke. I'm going to listen to the person.

I'm going to listen to the person and I'm going to take into consideration, you know, what that person said. And I'm going to definitely think about that the next time. It's funny, I'll tell you, I was going to say my threes company thing, but you know what? I keep it to myself.

My father, who is an old sovereign man, and my cousin, Rell, who was another old sovereign man, him and my father grew up together. I remember when Jack Tripper, God bless the dead, I remember when he passed away. And I remember just sitting around my daddy's shop, and my daddy has a, what we call like a little juke joint in the South, right? So you know, that's where they sell their beer and everything else, play pool. And we just sitting in there. And I remember it came across the news that he died.

And I remember my cousin saying to my dad, Oh, man, I'm glad he died. I'm glad he gone. He sat in that house with them two women all them years and didn't didn't sleep with either one of them. And I'm like, where was the TV show? Yeah, I know. That's true. And I'm like, it was a TV show, first of all. Yeah, I know, that's true. But I just remember that. It always sticks out of my mind because it always makes me realize why I have the type

of humor that I have because I grop around guys like that. What is your line? Oh, I got a lot of lines. I mean... No, but what's the thing that offends you that would be like, that's not funny? Don't you dare say that kind of thing. What would offend me that's not funny? I don't think that, hmm.

I think when people get, I'm just speaking, I think when people get killed and like really gruesome, brutal ways, like, you know, brutal ways. Like, you know, over the years, I've heard some really bad jokes about stuff like that. And what I've always tried to tell comics is you do realize that person has a family, right? Right.

So if that person's family hears this joke and decides to run up on you and beat your ass, you kind of earned it. Yeah. You know? So it's like stuff like that, like, you know, you got to think about people that are here. I think it's fair game to joke on anybody

that's still here to defend themselves. Yeah. You know, if you're not here to defend yourself, you know, I don't think that's right. I think it would be my kids. Anything about my kids, I don't like a joke. Or about kids, kids in danger. I agree with that, but that's the reason

I don't showcase my kids. I really don't know why people do that. I don't know why people put their kids on social media. Social media is the most toxic place ever. And that's why I say, I'm here to defend myself. You're here to defend yourself, kids are kids. Like they're not asking for any of this. Like, so why put them online and then open them up

to all types of scrutiny? My son calls me a Sharon. I have to stop, I stopped. Oh, cause you share too much? Yeah, Sharon. I took him out, he asked. People are cruel. Like, I mean, so I don you shared too much? Yeah, Sharon. I took him off, he asked. People are cruel. Like, I mean, so I don't know why folks would even,

yeah, I don't know why folks would showcase that. So you're not on social media at all, or you are? I'm on Instagram. You're on Instagram, you're on Instagram. So you're not on X. I guess you're not on X. Oh no, I got off X back in 2018, 2019. Yeah, oh, pre-Elon.

Yeah, I just don't feel like that's the way, I don't feel like your brain, I don't feel like your brain, I don't feel like your brain is wired to receive all of those opinions at once. Like, I don't care that much about the opinions of other people to want to take them in daily. And I think we're all in verbally abusive relationships with our smartphones, and Twitter and EXO, whatever you call it, plays a big, big role in it. It does. I'm off of it too. I had a million and a half followers and I came off.

I just don't know. Elon also wants to kill me, but that's a different story. We'll be back in a minute. Support for this show comes from Anthropic. Meet Claude, the AI assistant from Anthropic that can transform how your organization works. Imagine if every person on your team had an expert collaborator who knows your company inside and out. That's Claude. When you upload company documents into Claude, you're giving the context it needs to become

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This is advertiser content from Zelle. When you picture an online scammer, what do you see? For the longest time, we have these images of somebody sitting crouched over their computer with a hoodie on, just kind of typing away in the middle of the night. And honestly, that's not what it is anymore. That's Ian Mitchell, a banker turned fraud fighter. These days, online scams look more like crime syndicates than individual con artists and they're making bank. Last year scammers made off with more than ten billion dollars. It's mind-blowing to see the kind of infrastructure that's been built to facilitate scamming at scale. There are

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to protect each other. Learn more about how to protect yourself at vox.com slash zelle. And when using digital payment platforms, remember to only send money to people you know and trust. You founded the Black Effect Podcast Network in partnership with iHeart about four years ago during the podcast boom. Since then, some podcasts like this one have done very well, but overall ad revenue has

slowed, although not for the big ones, that's for sure. So how is the business of Black Effect Network going and how do you look at its prospects? Business at Black Effect is booming because you know what you said is true like you know the podcast market is very oversaturated but there are some podcasts and some networks that do very very well and you just have these corporations who want to put their money you know on short bets for the most part so they're going to go where the audience is like you know Black Effect is I think we're at a billion downloads you know total, with the 30 podcasts that we have. 30 podcasts. So you just want to make more of them.

Which are the top ones? Breakfast Club is a daily podcast is the top one, but then All the Smoke with Matt Barnes and Steven Jackson, Drink Champs with Norrie, 85 South Show with DC Young Clyde, Chico Bean and Carlos Miller, Horrible Decisions with Mandy and Weezy. Like Sarah J. Roberts, we got some really good ones that we've partnered with.

What's the through line of what you're creating? What would you say if you describe it? Amplifying black voices and letting people know that black people are not monolithic. Like there's not one train of thought that exists in the black community. Like there's a lot of diversity of thought. Like every single one of those that exists in the black community. Like there's a lot of diversity of thought.

Like every single one of those podcasts I named are completely different. Matt Barnes and Steven Jackson, they're sports. 85 South Show is comedy. Sarah Jake Roberts is a pastor, right? She's Bishop T.D. Jake's daughter. We got people like Debbie Brown on Black Effect that we're partnered with.

And she's one of the most renowned mental health mindfulness experts in the country. So it's like, you know, just showing people that black people aren't monolithic and we have a diversity of thoughts. So, you know, I'm not telling you that you can come to Black Effect and know exactly what's going on in the black community,

but you can get really close because of all the diversity of thought. Right, and you're mixing information and entertainment and something you said several times, which is authenticity or genuineness, right? Do you think as these get infused with politics, how do you get people to get good journalistic news sources if that's where they're getting their information?

I think you gotta have good journalists. Like I think that's where they're getting their information. I think you gotta have good journalists. Like I think that's where it starts. It starts with who are the good journalists and pointing them in the right direction. Like for me, I watch everything. I watch CNN, I watch Fox News, I watch MSNBC. I can point to different journalists on those networks, different personalities and say,

that's somebody I listen to, that's somebody I trust. I also watch a lot of YouTube. I think the Young Turks Network is fantastic. I think what they do on the Young Turks Network is incredible. They've been around a while too. And they've been around a long time. And I think that they're gonna end up,

they're gonna be a real major player, you know, in the future just because of the fact that they've been around so long. And I'm watching everybody try to get into that space now. Everybody's gonna be trying to run to create infrastructure like they have, but they've already got it. So I think they're going to really, really be

major players over the next- I think it's the lefts Joe Rogan, but I don't think there's any such thing. Can we talk about that? Yes, please. I hate that left Joe Rogan rhetoric. I do, too. I hate it.

How about just get some balls and go on Joe Rogan? Yeah. Or just create a show that's not compared to something, right? Or create a show that's not compared to something. But these shows exist. Like, go on Joe Rogan. Like, go on Joe Rogan, have the conversation. You think Gretchen Whitman wouldn't be great on Joe Rogan?

Yeah. You think Governor Josh Shapiro wouldn't be great on Joe Rogan? You think the vice president wouldn't have been great on Joe Rogan have the conversation. You think Gretchen Whitmer wouldn't be great on Joe Rogan? Yeah. You think Governor Josh Shapiro wouldn't be great on Joe Rogan? You think the vice president wouldn't have been great on Joe Rogan? Like just go on Joe Rogan and kick it with Joe. Have the conversation. Yeah. He never has me on because he's scared of me. I heard. That's what I heard. You think so? I don't know. No. You know, I remember at Andrew's wedding. Yeah. When I was at Andrew Shoach's wedding two years ago, it was the day after I had Vice President Kamala Harris on my TV show. And that's when I was asking her who the real president, Joe Manchin, and Joe Biden.

And Rogan was there and Rogan said to me, Rogan goes, how do they keep sitting down with you when they have these moments in these gaffes, right? But they won't ever come sit with me. So it's not like he doesn't want to ever come sit with me. Yeah. Yeah. So it's not like he doesn't want to have the conversation with them. Yeah. I don't know. You've written extensively about your struggles with depression and anxiety in your books

and how therapy and meditation helped you heal. And you're a mental health advocate. You hosted a mental health expo for the fourth time, but in your book you write that some people see you as a fake mental health advocate. That's not like a fake HHS head like Robert Kennedy. I don't care, I'm teasing. You've been very open about your struggles and how awful therapy has been. I'd love to understand how do you look at that now and has what's happening now in our

country affected your mental health and any advice you would have for anyone who's feeling badly about it? Oh man, I struggle every single day. Like it is an absolute process. Like you have to wake up every day and go seek out joy. Like you have to make sure that you go out there and find reasons to be happy. When I say that we're all in, you know, mentally abusive, verbally abusive relationships with our phones, I truly mean that. Because I can wake up in the morning like I do every day, say my prayers, you know, go get ready for work, read out of my affirmation books, get in my car, you know, put on some 90s R&B or a podcast or just something to stimulate my mind or an audio book. as soon as I get on the radio

and turn that phone on and got to log into the world, immediately, whatever I built up in those first couple of hours is challenged. Literally, it's literally, whatever joy I built up in those first couple of hours is challenged immediately. But that's what therapy is for. That's what meditation is for. That's what going outside and taking your shoes off

and walking in the grass and doing grounding is for. That's what hugs from your significant other are for. That's what hugs from your kids are for. That's what conversations with your family and friends and people that you love are for. That's what writing is for. That's what journaling is for. That's what whatever artistic expression you have that you use to get out whatever emotions

you're feeling at the time, that's what all of that stuff is for. You do realize you're a white San Francisco lesbian, but go ahead. I'm a straight white man, but go ahead, move along. That's why I do things like the Mental Wealth Expo, and that's why I do advocate for mental health so much, because I just want to show people that there's resources and tools, and I don't know anybody who's got it all together. I don't know one person who's got it all together. That's what you have these tools and these resources for.

And it's like, I look like this right now because I just finished working out, right? Like me and my wife, we got a trainer, we work out three times a week. Every day I'm on my bike. I get on that stationary bike and I do 45 minutes every day, 250 calories, gotta get burned every day. That's the same thing when you're dealing with

any mental or emotional health issues. It's an everyday thing. So how does our country get back to that? Because there really is a mental health crisis for teens on these phones. I have four kids. Most of them, my older ones, don't use their phones at all. They got off of them in a lot of ways because they made them feel bad. My oldest son said that to me.

What do you advocate then, because people are in a state right now, after this election, with the social media, whether you like Elon Musk or not, he won't the fuck get out of your face. Like, you know, everyone is in your face all the time. How do you, what would you say to people right now, what they should do?

I would say that we are in the United States of anxiety, and you know, you should do all of those things that I just mentioned because we have to have tools nowadays to keep ourselves mentally healthy as far as social media is concerned. I got to salute guys like Frank McCourt. I don't know if you've heard of Frank McCourt. Yeah, I do. I know Frank well.

Yeah, Frank's trying to buy TikTok because he just wants to make social media a healthier place. And you know, when you listen to him talk, he's doing it because he's thinking about the future of our kids and he's absolutely right. And it's like, you gotta have healthier options. Like we don't have any healthier options when it comes to social media right now, like none.

Like there's no healthier option. Like you have your Facebook, you have your Instagram, you have your TikTok, you have your Twitter, but all of these spaces are the wild, wild west. You can curate, you know, I'm on Instagram because you can curate in a certain way. You can mute certain words and, you know, you don't have to follow certain people, which is great,

but you do need healthier options. So, you know, we need more guys like Frank McCourt who have the money and who have the resources and who aren't just trying to, you know, capitalize off of people's time and capitalize off people's attention. Like he's actually trying to use these platforms to better people. Or their anger. Or their anger.

I always say enragement equals engagement. That is a fact. So yeah, I just think that, you know, we just all got to find these different tools that we have to make ourselves more mentally healthy. And we need more people like Frank McCourt trying to, you know, buy social media platforms to make them healthier spaces. Yeah, the business plans don't call for that. They call for constant attention, deficit disorder, I think, on people's part. Anyway, this has been fantastic.

I appreciate it. This has been a wonderful discussion. And keep doing what you're doing. I appreciate it. This has been a wonderful discussion and keep doing what you're doing. I appreciate you. Thank you very much for having me. On with Kara Swisher is produced by Christian Castro-Russell, Kateri Yocum, Jolie Myers, Megan Burney and Kaylin Lynch. Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of audio. Special thanks to Claire Hyman. Our engineers are Rick Kwan and Fernando Arruda and our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, you're a San Francisco lesbian like Charlamagne.

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