On with Kara Swisher - "Food, Feminism, and Fury" with Geraldine DeRuiter

Episode Date: April 1, 2024

Author Geraldine DeRuiter a.k.a. The Everywhereist joins Kara to talk about her new book If You Can’t Take the Heat: Tales of Food, Feminism, and Fury. They talk about some of the author’s viral moments and the backlash she experienced after calling out two famed Italian chefs, the inherent sexism in the food industry (from dining rooms to professional kitchens), and how societal stigmas around beauty and our bodies have distorted our relationship to food. Questions? Comments? Email us at [e-mail] or find us on social media. We’re on Instagram/Threads as @karaswisher and @nayeemaraza Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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worst meal she ever had at a Michelin-starred restaurant, got so much traffic it crashed her server. The restaurant was called Bro's, and one course involved sucking foam from a plaster mouth. So there's that. It's no wonder Geraldine calls herself the, quote, Gloria Steinem of culinary blogging. Half in jest, of course, but I wanted to talk to her about some of those moments and the systemic misogyny that exists in both the culinary world and online. impact that weight loss drugs like Wagovi and Ozempic could have on all that. Our question today comes from Blair Braverman, celebrity dog musher and also a great feminist writer. We'll have all that and more after the break. Fox Creative. This is advertiser content from Zelle. When you picture an online scammer, what do you see?

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and my family's a big fan, and you make me laugh more than anybody. Oh my gosh, thanks, that's a high praise. So, I just wrote a book called Burn Book, and you just wrote one called If You Can't Take the Heat. We should have coordinated on tour dates. No kidding! Let's talk about that idea of what what the idea of can't take the heat mine is the same thing it's about you know uh just taking things down and i think you do in a

different way because the subtitle of yours is uh tales of food feminism and fury uh mine is a tech love story um so talk about how you decided to call it. Obviously, it's a kitchen reference, but talk a little bit more about that. Well, I think that, you know, besides just the kind of obvious metaphor there, I think that there is all of this pressure and, you know, frankly, bullshit that we deal with as women. And when I started looking at the culinary industry and our relationship with food, that seemed to heighten all of it. It seemed like all of the crap that women deal with in microcosm,

and I was like, this is it. This is perfect. That food's the metaphor. I think I use tech as the metaphor, not only about feminist issues, but other things, power, about power and how we use power in the world. And obviously, food is power. When you think about the idea of heat and fury, I like that you use the word fury. What does that mean? Because, you know, of course, people like to say women have rage or you're angry and you've been subject to that. How do you look at that, that idea of what fury is to you? I mean, I feel like it's a very targeted, focused, and I like to think of it as intentional, you know? If you think about fury, it's something that is targeted and willful and

I hesitate to say righteous. Yeah, but why not? Yeah, why not? So you want to say righteous, that it's righteous? Sure. Yeah. Hell yeah. Let's do it. Let's say righteous. Why is that a loaded word? Do you think it's because it's used self-righteous women, that kind of thing? Yeah. Well, and also because I've been so criticized about my anger, right?

I'm sure you have as well because you are a woman in a body in the world. Right. And the one thing we're not allowed to do, right, repeatedly is to get angry. We can do literally anything else, but we cannot get angry because the second we do, But we cannot get hangry because the second we do, we are unhinged, we're bitchy, we're irrational, we're loud, we're not to be taken seriously, we're getting overly emotional, we're premenstrual, we're postmenopausal, we're premenopausal, we're everything, right? Yeah. I recall the expression on the rag. Remember?

Are you on that? Oh, yeah. Yep. I know that one well. We're criticized the second we raise our voices. You know, we're accused of being shrill. It's a litany of things. And so you have to tamp it down and you really have to deny yourself your own anger. your own anger. And so, yeah, so I hesitate to even use the phrase that is in the subtitle of my book. Yeah, especially in the wake of, you know, the New York Times referring to me as loud and irrational. Yes, we'll get to that in a second because, you know, you are loud and

irrational. I am. Let's talk about, Let's go right to Mario Batali then. I've got other questions about your influences and inspirations, but one of the essays, the most famous, is your first post to really go viral, and this was in 2018. Everybody read this. It was your essay about celebrity chef and restaurateur Mario Batali. Two parts to the story,

what you wrote about Batali in the food industry and what happened to you as a result. For people who don't remember, explain the Batali Me Too backstory and what you wrote and how you did it. Sure. So I think it was late 2017. Allegations of sexual misconduct, which is, you know, later came out to be the understatement of the year, came out against Mario Batali, and we were kind of in the height of the Me Too movement. And he sent out sort of preemptively, it was the very sort of stripped down PR message that the legal team had sanitized that was, I apologize for my behavior. It went out with his newsletter, and at the end of it included a recipe for cinnamon rolls. It was atrocious. And everybody responded, and they were like, what the hell are you doing? But I decided to make the cinnamon rolls. And I wrote it-

What else would one do in the face of sexual harassment? Right. Yeah. You're like, okay, let's do that. And it's a crap recipe. And I could tell by reading it that it was a crap recipe. You could tell by reading it? Yeah. I mean, I'm not a cook like you are. My son is a cook. My brother is a great cook. Yeah.

My mom's a great cook. What could you tell? So I do a lot of baking, right? And for one thing, it's a pizza dough cinnamon roll. And anyone who's kind of familiar with doughs at all knows that pizza dough's properties are entirely different from cinnamon roll dough property. So one is more a brioche dough. It's very soft and light. And the other one is thicker and chewier.

So pizza dough, you know, you're used to having it like half your chew. Yeah. Yeah. So I could tell by looking at it. sort of became a metaphor for realizing your instincts, you know, trusting them, and then sort of being gaslit constantly and being told, no, what you see and what you perceive is not actually true. Yeah, using food as a metaphor. Using food as a metaphor. And I wrote about all of these bullshit experiences that I personally had had or had seen, you know, in sort of the broader news and did that as I was making the recipe. Right. Obviously, you can't predict virality.

Right. But it went, I believe the technical word, and you could confirm this is bonkers viral. It did. Bonkers viral is the technical word. Yes. Thank you. Thank you for confirming that. Yeah. So the site crashed due to the sheer volume. Pete Wells from the New York Times was retweeting it. Martha Stewart was sharing it. Yeah. I think what was important is you used the recipe as a stunt. It's a stunt, but it was a fantastic stunt. Sometimes stunt writing works beautifully. You're going to take his advice and try the cinnamon rolls and show what a scam this is, what a scam this piece of food is. This is a bad piece of food that you're getting recommended from a guy who behaved badly. Food writers, as you said, love the essay.

You ended up winning the James Beard Award for it. But you started to deal with harassment, even death threats on social media, and you engaged with the haters. Talk about that, because first everyone was like, what an essay, right? What an essay. Right. Right. So shortly afterward, my Twitter account got hacked, and I managed to get it back, but it was through contacts that I had that I was able to get it back so quickly. But there was a slew of hate mail, you know, people who were like, no, these roles look fantastic. You just don't know how to cook. You don't know what you're talking about. So they were insulting your cooking methods. I mean, every, I mean, the whole gamut of things, you know, the same thing. I'm loud, irrational, and hysterical.

And that went on for a long time. And you know, the one thing that you shouldn't do is engage. And so I was like, oh shit, I'm going to engage. And you see this a lot, right? I think Sarah Silverman did it. Patton Oswalt did it. And they usually do it to some sort of beautiful success, right? They have some sort of understanding and everybody realizes that they're people and it's gorgeous. And I was like, I'm going to have a moment like that. I did not have a moment like that.

Right. You got some supportive comments, correct? But the vitriol is what you're talking, especially in women. Yeah, it was, I think once people, once, you know, the harassers and the abusers realized that they had someone live on the line who was listening, they doubled down. So it was, it was shocking. It was honestly shocking. What was shocking about it? Tell me what, because I do not try to engage with many of these people. nor should you. So first of all, the fire hose of just absolute spewing hate at me for making a recipe was probably the first layer of it. But beyond that, one of the questions that I asked

all of them, and I selected people who were very clearly, they were using the C word. One guy told a woman to shove cheese up one of her, you know, part of her anatomy. It was clear. So I asked them directly, do you think you're being abusive? And without fail, they said no. And I was like, how? How is this possible? And every single- Because I am not going to shove cheese up my vagina, but go ahead. Right. Go ahead. Right. And the absolute disconnect and the number of them who said, I am the victim here and you're harassing me by asking me these questions. And then they said the same number of arguments. Some of them were like, well, it's just the internet. And I have the freedom to say whatever I want. And you put yourself out there in the first place. And if you don't want to hear it, you shouldn't be here. And so I noticed that the same arguments were repeating themselves over and over and over again. So I started to explore it a little bit more. And I ended up, you know, I spent about a year doing a couple talks, doing keynotes about this at a few conferences. And I realized this was killing my soul. Killing your soul, right.

Yeah, yeah. You had said last year you wrote that Twitter had felt like a problematic teen. You struggled to co-parent with several million people. Yes. Did you ever think about just turning it off or the comments at least? Yeah. I turned off my comments on Twitter first time since I started there in 2007 because I just didn't feel like being called a cunt anymore. Right. I just was like, no, I think that's what I'm not going to have happen to me today.

So did you ever think about it? And I get a lot of people, I think that's what I'm not going to have happen to me today. So did you ever think about doing it? And I just do. I get a lot of people, she doesn't even let you comment. I'm like, no, I don't. No, because I'm tired of being called a cunt. Yeah, yeah, exactly. That's it. Yeah, that's enough.

No, I mean, I think that, you know, I've written about this. To be a writer on Twitter, it was this double-edged sword. And I use past tense because I'm no longer on Twitter, it was this double-edged sword. And I use past tense because I'm no longer on Twitter, right? Like I effectively still have an account, but I'm rarely there. Because you don't want people to take it, yeah. Exactly. But I didn't want to cut off one of my main sources of reaching my audience. You know, for a nonfiction writer, I had 140,000 followers, which was huge. And engagement was a huge part of it. And honestly, it wasn't something I even considered. Isn't that crazy? I never considered stopping the pipeline that allowed people to

abuse me. Right. It's like it wasn't an option. So it's changed your approach to social media. You just felt like it's too good in some ways to turn off, essentially. I think that the model of social media is that we don't, you cannot utilize it effectively if you turn off those comments. Right, right, right. Because you have to know, except now they've become so troll-y. But the Bertelli piece isn't the only one that had trolls on your back. In 2021, you're back again.

You reviewed a 27-course tasting menu at the Michelin-starred restaurant in Italy called Bro's. The headline is Bro's Lecce. We eat at the worst Michelin-starred restaurant ever. Explain, and please feel free

to relive the quote, rancid ricotta. Oh, absolutely. i'm such a rascal aren't i i just get i'm a very angry woman i think you need to see what's wrong just chill maybe i'm hungry yeah maybe that uh once again i cause an international incident with an asshole chef who happens to be italian so we we to Italy, COVID restrictions. It's Chef Floriano. Floriano, yes. COVID restrictions have just lifted for Italy. We go, you know, we see people we didn't think we were going to see again. It was beautiful. And on our last night all together, we go to

this restaurant. And part of the impetus for that is that one of the chefs was the youngest female Michelin-starred chef ever. So it is one of the only Michelin-starred restaurants in Lecce, and it turns out to be, I cannot impart to you what a sheer disaster of a meal this was. impart to you what a sheer disaster of a meal this was. So it's four hours, roughly, virtually 400 calories maybe was served. I was famished. And like, I'm not a huge eater. I was so hungry. And my husband informed them of several allergy restrictions that he had, my husband informed them of several allergy restrictions that he had and they uh completely ignored them to the point that at one point he had to take you know an antihistamine and he's like my lips are starting to swell so i wrote you know i wrote about it in this semi you know in a humorous way but it was also you know entirely factual account of what happened to us, what was served, what occurred. And once again, it went.

It blew up. Five million visitors. Technical term, bonkers viral. Bonker viral, which is your thing. Yep. But then he wrote a response, Chef Floriano, basically saying that his food was art and you didn't get it. And he didn't even name you, just called you Mrs. X, XX. Yes, Miss Triple X. Triple X, right. Talk about the response and what did you make of it?

Yeah, so he wrote a manifesto which he insisted be published in full, which is usually what, you know, serial killers do. So that was interesting um but so he posts it and the today show or today.com publishes it in full and i feel like my soul left my body i was laughing so hard it was absurd it included three photos of a man on the horse on a horse and it said that food is art and sometimes art is not beautiful and sometimes people just are too base and ignorant to understand art which is an absurd statement because food is actually far more complex than art right yeah food food serves a specific purpose and it can't be poisonous

so the new york times uh did coverage of the story. Yeah. And they interviewed me and they interviewed Floriano, but what resulted was this puff piece about the chef in which he said, and he said it across multiple publications in Italy as well, that I deserved to be punched. If I had behaved that way

at another restaurant, I would have been thrown out. But one of the instances that came up was about rancid ricotta. And I was speaking to one of the servers and he said, this is made with rancid ricotta. And I said, do you mean fermented? And he goes, no, ranchido. And I'm like, oh, that, okay, that's a phrase. All right. And so I wrote about that as well. And he was like, you just don't understand the cuisine of Puglia.

You don't understand Italy. And I'm like, I speak the language. So it was all of these levels of attack. And again, it became the same way that we always attack women, right? You just don't understand. You're too ignorant. You're not familiar with the industry. You're an outsider. You deserve to be beaten. You're ugly and old,

right? This is over ricotta. Okay. Over the meal. And what was astonishing about that one is the New York Times reiterated these statements that he made. And so I'm seeing this legitimacy of all of these things, all of this hate in the paper of record. And you were contacted by a woman who had worked at Rose who described a toxic work environment, which is not a fresh thing for the food industry. No, not at all. So almost immediately after the first kind of story, after Floriano sent his response out and it was still kind of going viral, I was contacted by a woman who had worked for him. And there were also several allegations that had come up on Twitter. And she ended up telling me, you know, just situations that, you know, are incredibly toxic and abusive. And there were more allegations beyond that. At that point, I was like, look, I'm not a food journalist. I'm a food essayist, and I'm a part of this story. So ethically, I can't cover this.

Right. I ended up passing it to several news outlets. And again, the one that picked it up was the New York Times. And it was my understanding that they were pursuing the story of abuse allegations. And they ended up dropping that story because they said that there was not enough essentially national, U.S. national interest in an Italian chef. But then they ended up putting him in the front section. Right. So this is not uncommon. They're not Mario Batali or Chef Floriano

are not anomalies in the food industry. No. According to a Harvard study in 2018, more sexual harassment claims were filed in the restaurant industry than any other. 90% of women and 70% of men say they've experienced some form of sexual harassment while working there.

I think a lot of people knew it was bad, but this bad, why is that? Why is that? Is it just people file more claims than other places? What do you attribute that to? I think— And by the way, it's both men and women harassing. It's a really—you've read so many different—and a lot of it's abuse, just plain old abuse. I think that it is a incredibly toxic environment that for the most part is actually hidden to the public, right?

We don't see what goes on in kitchens. We're sort of unaware. We see the byproduct of it. We see the food that comes out. And I think that we societally have celebrated and excused the sort of genius abusive chef and we've seen this with marco pierre white we've seen this with gordon ramsey who you know does commercials where he he yells at people and that is so ingrained in our approach and how we view it that it's just gone under the radar for far too long. And why do you think it's in that particular industry? Is there something about it? I don't know.

I mean, look, is it a male-dominated industry? Yes. Is it a high-dominated industry? Yes. Is it a high-pressure industry? Absolutely. Are there a lot of industries that are like that? Yeah. So why cooking becomes or why the culinary world becomes this sort of conduit for it, I still haven't quite figured that out. Could it be power discrepancies and high turnover? Because the power discrepancies is almost like the military except with no military.

There is. Well, that is what it was modeled after, right? The early kitchens were modeled after it was militaristic structure, but they didn't quite have this level of abuse. So I do think that there are people who are looking for power and they find an ability to do that and it becomes unchecked and it becomes celebrated. Celebrated, yeah. So Batali's Del Posto had two Michelin stars, Brose had one Michelin star. As a food writer, do you think a food guy like Michelin should take into account not just the food and service, but also the reputation of the restaurant? Or is that not their job? They're just here for the food?

I mean, honestly, I obviously think so because the reputation has to do with the experience that the customer has. that the customer has. If you're giving awards or recognition to restaurants or chefs that are behaving in this way, that's kind of a detriment to your own institution. And I think the James Beard Association, we've seen them have a reckoning about this recently. There's been several chefs who have been called out, who've been awarded the James Beard Award, and then have been accused of sexual harassment.

Allegations have come out. So they said that they're doing more strident examination of their nominees. So, yeah, I think absolutely you need to be accountable. It's kind of absurd. So Michelin has admitted it has a problem when it comes to diversity, which has been criticized by many people, including from you. Gerald Sombright was the first black chef to make the list in the U.S., and that was 2022. Why is that? Is it doing enough? What is the problem? I was just giving a speech to students at my old high school, and I said, if you look at the numbers in tech, you'd think only straight white men were the only

important smart people in the universe, if you looked at it. And that, you'd think only straight white men were the only important smart people in the universe, if you looked at it. And that cannot be true. It is not true, and it cannot be true. Why is that from your perspective in the food industry? I mean, it's, you know, in the JBFA, it was the same thing. I believe Mashama Bailey was the first outstanding chef to receive an award in, it might have been 2020 or 2022. And it's clearly not a pipeline issue. You know, we have more women graduating culinary school than ever before. I think 54% of all graduates are women. I think what we are seeing is the people who are allowed to succeed are white men. Now, the research that I have found and the way that I have looked at it through the lens of the book, and I talk about this, is that men are allowed to be good chefs and we allow women to be good cooks.

Explain that difference. So in a professional environment, in a lauded, celebrated kitchen environment, we allow men to excel. But we don't allow women to. And it's even in the descriptors of how women present food. And they did some analysis of this. They would present a dish, and when it was gender blind, the women were evaluated with higher ratings. When someone knew that the dish had been created by a woman, they evaluated it with a lower rating. And yet, within the home, women do the majority of the cooking.

So I think when that labor is invisible and free and uncompensated, we allow women to do it. So, I mean, misogyny is at the heart of it, right? And it always is. One interesting deep dive in your book was some of the sexist practices affecting diners. You wrote about getting a menu without price as a ladies' menu. Let me just tell you, I'm going to tell you a very short story. There was a place called the Birdcage at Lord & Taylor's that had boys got desserts, double desserts on certain days. It was boys' day. And so my brothers, I had two brothers, got two desserts and I got one on boys' day at the Birdcage. Because you had to watch your figure?

No, I don't know. Because it was boys' day. And when it's Girls' Day, you'll get it. But there was never a Girls' Day. What the fuck? I always went and they're like, oh, today's Boys' Day again. I was like, when is it Girls' Day? Like, when do girls get dessert? And it never happened. Never happened.

It sticks with me. I am a very old lady right now. And I'm still furious about the birdcage and Boys' Day and desserts. So talk about the ladies' menu. Because the boys can eat it. You know, the boys. Yeah, that is some, so first let's say that's some extreme bullshit. I know, my brothers loved it. They're like, Boys' Day! Anyway, go ahead. They still to this day say Boys' Days to me and I want to punch them. So ladies' menu. So the ladies menu uh so originally restaurants were not for women you would walk into a dining hall and it was you know populated entirely by white men you know i think i said it

was like a gop convention and uh if you were a woman who was attending a dining hall you would only be doing it in the company of a man. That was the only way. And so the assumption was men would pay. And largely because women could not have their own money. So you would be presented a menu with no prices. Now, there was a lawsuit in the early 1980s because a woman who was attending a lunch with her business partner and intending to pay to celebrate a deal that they had just closed received a menu without prices. And both she and her business partner walked out and they ended up suing the restaurant.

And that led to kind of the demise of the ladies' menu in the United States. You can still find it in two or three restaurants, but I've received it several times while traveling in Europe, primarily in Italy. I didn't realize what was happening when I received the menu. I thought there was a price somewhere, and I had missed it. And it wasn't until my husband was commenting on the prices that I realized that his menu had prices and mine did not. Right, right. There is a recent story about Sushi Nas, a Japanese restaurant in New York. Yes. Two Michelin stars that served only women in a group, smaller portions than men for a $700 omakase tasting menu. And it's a very similar thing, correct?

Yeah. And I've actually, I've gone places where I've noticed that I've received smaller portions and I thought it was a bad luck of the draw. I honestly, I was like, oh, I guess, you know, my piece happened to be smaller and it never occurred to me. And so now I'm kind of more attuned to this now. To the sizes. But this is a common occurrence. And so receiving a menu without prices, besides just being disorienting, assumes that you are not paying. And more than once,

I have been the one paying. So one of the things, besides being funny, is reaction to your work have been divisive, as you said, not just online. People seem to either love you or hate you. Jennifer Reese from The Times gave your book. It was not a good review. It's written here, a mixed review, but I don't think it was mixed. It's not a mixed review. She said your quote, I had the same experience. It's fine.

My wife gave me all my sources in case you're interested. Oh, I read it. experience. It's fine. My wife gave me all my sources in case you're interested. Oh, I read it. I read it. Yeah. It's really great because I met her seven years after I started covering things. But, you know, I went back in a time machine. I went forward in a time machine. Anyway, she said you had a, quote, mastery of irony, profanity, stream of consciousness, indignation.

But you swamp your writing with, quote, salty all capsicides and sarcastic mini diet tribes. She accused you of ranting, I believe. Talk about this review, having just had a ridiculously sexist review written at me. book came out on the 12th. And I think that we should also talk about the accompanying illustration because that was the part where, you know, my soul left my body. So, it is a rendition of what appears to be my head. It looks like it's based off of my author photo. It has my exact same shade of lipstick. It's my decapitated head on a platter and someone is eating it. So whether it's a cake or it's big. What food would you be a cake or? I mean, I would like to think I would be a cake. Yeah. Yeah. It's a picture of a woman eating the head of a woman. That's what's happening. And the eyes have been gouged out and there's a part in the back that has been gouged out. So it's a little, it's got some St. John the Baptist vibes.

So, thoughts? Yeah, so along with this is the review by Jennifer Reese, which is not a positive review. She calls me loud, irrational, ravenous uh so you're hungry yes um she describes me as having an all eyes on me personality oh narcissistic yeah don't do that yes um and then i've gotten that one have you isn't it funny yeah it's really funny as a memoirist you shouldn't well i had one just recently don't you shouldn't talk about your book so much. I'm like, I'm selling a book. Like you, I just, I want to. I'm really curious if a man has ever gotten that feedback. Ever. I'm uncommonly confident in case you're interested. Uncommonly confident. You really shouldn't be.

You really shouldn't be. Have you considered just, also, have you considered smiling more? Here's the, here's a quote. You'd be so pretty if you smiled. I know. You know what? I have not considered it. One of her overarching gripes, a rightful gripe, is how the way women blunt their anger and soften their voices in order to placate and please, but women can also soften their voices in order to persuade and illuminate. That's essentially telling you to smile. That's, I believe.

She told me to smile more. She also openly questions why my husband loves me. Yeah. And I want to put that one in context because that one feels very important. It is in a chapter where I'm talking about dealing with the after effects of growing up with domestic violence and witnessing that and learning to accept that you deserve love and how it's still sometimes beyond my comprehension that my husband loves me and she questioned that and i was like she didn't i was like did you read it closely like i think you would actually i think the reviewer would have benefited from reading my book was how i felt after the review uh and so as kind of an addendum to this and i realized that most illustrators don't read the book.

Right. But I do think it was quite an oversight. Is that I talk about one of the threats that I receive is, you know, I talk about how I get hate mail about people wishing illnesses upon my eyes and my vagina. And they've gouged out my eyes. But I've also had brain surgery. And I talk about this in the book. And so to visualize or show any sort of, you know, specific trauma where my head is cracking and open is, is, is, it's in bad taste. Yeah, I see why you're so left your body. So every week we get a question, this is perfect, from an outside expert, someone I know. Have a listen to this one. Hey, I'm Blair Braverman. I'm a dog sledder and author

of the novel Small Game. I'm interested in the assumption that writing about female rage is quote unquote therapeutic, which frames the hard work of writing about sexism as something an author does for herself rather than something difficult and risky that she's doing for other people. Now, obviously, if someone's negative about your work, that's one thing. But my big question is, do you ever get compliments from well-meaning people that reveal they totally don't get your work? And if so, what are those compliments?

That's a great question. You know Blair. She's fantastic. That is a great question. I do think the bravery comment is a weird one. Have you gotten this? Yes. Go ahead.

You tell me this about you. Yeah. It is strange when people are like, oh, you're so brave. It makes me very uncomfortable. Why is that? Because it suggests that I have revealed something that perhaps other people would be afraid to reveal. Mm-hmm. And that perhaps I shouldn't have.

It gives me pause because it suggests that bravery is required to talk about trauma or difficult things. And I don't necessarily know that it's true. I think that, well, I don't know. But I don't think bravery is the right word. What about the framing of sexism that you do for yourself rather than for others? I think that that is, it is interesting because I write through the lens of memoir, and it would be disingenuous to say that there is not a part of it that is not for me. Mm-hmm. However, to say that this is just me exploring and kind of dealing with and in a way really accepting and coming to terms with

my own trauma and finding peace with it. I don't think that that is accurate. I think that there is something incredibly difficult with writing about all of these topics. I don't want to say that I am doing some sort of great social service, but if I don't talk about this shit, I do think I'm going to explode. Is that fair? I don't know if that is like this peaceful therapy. I think it's more just this pressure valve. You're telling the truth. I get, how are you so confident?

Yeah. Is that unusual? I don't know. Yeah, so I don't know. I think it's more a pressure valve. I think that this is just preserving some degree of sanity for myself. And I have to say, I am always a little bit taken aback when people tell me they feel the same way. I'm like, oh, that's wonderful. I'm so thrilled. There's a lot of commonality. There's a lot of commonality. Yeah. And I will say, I also have a lot of, I have deep anxiety whenever I write something deeply personal. I have deep anxiety. I have a lot of vulnerability hangovers.

When I turned in the draft of this book, I was just a nervous wreck. I wasn't sure if I wanted to talk about or reveal these things. But I also think that it's important to talk about the bullshit that we all deal with. Yep. Yep. 100%. Yeah. 100%. We'll be back in a minute. 88% of the work week is spent communicating, typing, talking, and going back and forth on topics until everyone is on the same page. It's time for a change. It's time for Grammarly.

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conditions apply. Need to hire? You need Indeed. So speaking of bullshit we all deal with, let's talk more about this writing about rage. You write about the connection between anger and hunger in a chapter called Hangar Management, how you deal with both. What is the connection between anger and hunger? with both. What is the connection between anger and hunger? Well, so I think that women are taught to suppress both. Yeah. Very much so. And I think that the only acceptable way that we are allowed to express any sort of rage is when we are hungry. And then we dismiss it and other people dismiss it. You know, you have these moments of sheer rage, and then you're like, oh, I'm so sorry.

I was just hungry. And it's not illegitimate because we're hungry. Yeah, you went to a doctor who told you to eat when you're hungry, and you were shocked. Mm-hmm. I talked to two nutritionists for the book, and they both were very positive. They had wonderful relationships with food. Both of them did work with a lot of individuals who were recovering from eating

disorders and who were dealing with very difficult, complex relationships with food. And one of them said to me, you know, I was like, I don't i i don't know how to feel fuller longer because that's what we're taught all the time like this meal will keep you fuller longer and she was like why don't you just eat again right and i was like that's very obvious yeah why why didn't that occur to me? Yeah. Yeah, I say that to a lot of my women friends. I'm like, they're like, I'm really hungry.

I said, you should eat. And they're like, what? Like, huh? Yeah. Like, that's not the choice. Which brings us to the core topic of the book, how being a food writer has impacted your relationship to food and your body image and how it impacts us all. This is a key part of this book. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, again, you know, to exist as a woman in a body in the world, there is no way to not have someone comment on what you eat constantly. And I see it from every single angle, even when somebody is like, oh, do you think that's healthy? Well, what do you mean by that? And what does it matter? Is it what you're craving? Does it nourish you?

Do you need food right now? Then eat it. Is it going to satisfy you? Then do it. But it's so loaded, right? What we eat is so loaded and it's so tied to our bodies and how we view ourselves and how other people view us. And then there's this huge issue of fatness, right? Which

is a word we can barely say, but it's this idea of don't get fat, whatever you do, as though it's a moral failing for your body to have fat on it. I'm just curious then, I don't know if you saw Oprah's ABC special on weight loss drugs, Weight Watchers is going to be including McGovie and Zep Bound in their program. Just this idea of medicating obesity will change our relationship to food because it also suppresses our taste for food, right? It strips people of the desire to eat. It, of course, also reinforces thinness, possible health, but thinness. And some of it, people are like, good, like, let's get rid of the diabetic industrial complex, right? Obviously, there's going to be a health divide, but 40% of U.S. adults had obesity in 2018. It's a huge health problem. I'd just love to know your thoughts on this, because it's a complex topic.

There's all kinds of ways to hit at it, in that it's okay to have weight. On the other hand, some of it's very bad for your health. How do you look at it? And also stripping the desire to eat is really an interesting question. Food is something very beautiful, the enjoyment of food, which it removes completely. It is. And there's another element here too, right? Which is there are people who are using this who are not using it for medical reasons, right? They are not obese. And someone called this the Ozempic Oscars because everyone was dangerously thin. And there were actors who have always been, you know, I refer to them as average, like average weight, right? Like you look like somebody I would see at the

store and they all of a sudden are now, you know, rail thin. And part of that is because they are able to, you know, I think Ozempic, and I'm using that as a generic term. I know there's a bunch of them, but I believe they cost $1,500 a month. Yeah, they will go down in price eventually. But how do you look at this idea of, you know, all this, the relation between women and food and weight and food and weight and women is so, it has become such a thing. And yet there's also love your body, and you should. Like, it's a complex issue. And we're getting so many conflicting messages, right? And I have to say, the love your body thing, that's new. That's new.

That's not really something I heard. No, me neither. Right. I think that this is something that the new generations are getting at the same time that they're being told this drug will make you lose weight. So I will say I'm wary because, you know, these are very new. I do think that there is a benefit, you know, to be evaluated here if you have severe health issues that are being caused by or exacerbated by weight and there is no other alternative for you.

I understand that. I also know people who are on these drugs and a few of them have told me they have never felt sicker in their entire lives. And a lot of them are, you know, unable to eat because of the sheer nausea. I talked to someone in my life and they said, I can barely brush my teeth because putting the toothbrush in my mouth makes me want to throw up. What happens when we don't love food, right? Because you love food. I do. I do. It's so funny too when people say that because,

you know, 43 years of being a woman in the world, I bristle. I still react. I'm like, well, wait, what do you mean by that? What are you saying? What are you saying when you tell me I love? Are you? And if you are, and if you are, that automatically means it's bad, right? It automatically means it's bad if I'm fat. That's how that works. And it's, it is such a complex thing because like, I have a great relationship with food and I am, and I realized that it's a privilege for me to say that because, you know, I'm walking around in like a size six, size eight, you know, that's my body, right? I'm a relatively small woman in a body in the world. And so for me to be able to say I like food, I love these things, for me to be able to make cracks about eating cake, that's born of privilege. Sure. But you hesitate, just like you hesitate saying.

I do. Yeah. Oh, I mean, shit, misogyny and years of anti-fatness is a hell of a drug. A hell of a drug. And it is deep in us, right? It is deep ingrained in you. And I think one of the things that we have done societally is we have confused fatness universally with being unhealthy. Now, sometimes it's true. Being very thin is also unhealthy. So I worry that these weight loss drugs are conflating that message even more. Yeah. Why do we associate thinness with beauty and health? This is the longest period in society, because it's always gone back and forth. This is the longest period in society where we have embraced, you know, very, very thin bodies.

100%. I have two more questions. What do you think the food trend of the year will be? What are you seeing out there? You know, I'm seeing people really going back to a lot of deeply personal and emotional recipes. So I'm seeing a lot of people who are making food that they have an emotional tie to. So it's their grandmother's recipe. It's their family recipes. And I see them doing more elaborate spins on those. Like, okay, grandma did this. I want to try and recreate it, but I want to add something to it.

So I'm seeing that, but that has been true for a while. I'll tell you what I really want to continue seeing, which is I really just want people to eat. God, I just want them to eat. I'm seeing people focus on the nutrition of food absent of calories and absent of morality. So I'm seeing a lot less, this is naughty. This is for cheat day. I'm seeing a lot less of that bullshit. And I'm seeing people say things like, I need to get more protein because

I'm a woman in this age. So that's what I'm hoping will continue as a food trend, really that focus on health. So my last question right now, what is your favorite food? I just got back from Italy. You weren't with Chef Floriano, I assume. I was not. I was very far from Chef Floriano. And we were in Lazio, which is where Rome is. So there was a lot of carbonara, which is like my favorite thing.

But there was also, I don't know what it was. There was truffle everything. And I know truffle is overdone. I don't care. I don't care if it makes me basic. I do not care. I was just having some really simple pastas with shaved truffles. And it was fantastic.

And because it was Europe and not America, it was like 15 euros and not 98. And so that was fantastic. Cheap truffles. Cheap truffles. Oh, yeah. Cheap truffles. Cheap truffles. All right, Geraldine, this is an amazing book.

I recommend everyone read it. It'll make you laugh. It is not a rant. It is just a lovely book. It's called If You Can't Take the Heat, Tales of Food, Feminism, and Fury. You are not furious. You are hysterical. Thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate it. Thank you for your time. I really appreciate it. On with Kara Swisher is produced by Neha Maraza, Christian Castro Rossell, Kateri Yochum,

Megan Burney, and Sheena Ozaki. Special thanks to Mary Mathis, Kate Gallagher, and Andrea Lopez Cruzado. Our engineers are Fernando Arruda and Rick Kwan. And our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, you get cheap truffles. If not, you get cheap truffles.

If not, you get Mario Batali's pizza cinnamon buns. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On with Kara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network and us. You can subscribe to the magazine at nymag.com slash pod. We'll be back on Thursday with more. Support for this podcast comes from Stripe.

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