On with Kara Swisher - From Bit Parts to Two Emmy Nods: Jeff Hiller’s Long Road to Success

Episode Date: July 27, 2026

Comedian and actor Jeff Hiller has managed to land roles on two of the buzziest TV shows of the last year. He just earned his second Emmy nomination for a guest role in “Pluribus,” and he seems poised for an even bigger role in the second season of the comedy horror “Widow’s Bay.” His success builds on his Emmy-winning breakout performance in HBO’s “Somebody Somewhere” as Joel, the compassionate best friend to series star Bridget Everett’s character, Sam. Kara and Jeff talk about why he thinks people are drawn to shows like “Pluribus” and “Widow’s Bay,” why Hollywood rarely tells stories about the middle class anymore, and the role faith has played in his life. They also talk about why it’s still hard to land roles, despite Jeff's Emmy success.  Questions? Comments? Email us at [e-mail] or find us on YouTube, Instagram, TikTok, Threads, and Bluesky @onwithkaraswisher. Clips courtesy of HBO and Apple TV.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

At the end of the day, I look like I look. And you can't plug me into just anything. Like, no one's going to cast me as a romantic lead. And I don't need to play the romantic lead. A lot of times, those are really boring parts. Hi, everyone, from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. This is on with Kara Swisher, and I'm Kara Swisher. My guest today is actor and comedian Jeff Hiller.

After years of playing bit roles as stereotypical sassy gay man, and Hiller finally got his big break in his mid-40s. It came from the HBO comedy drama, Somebody Somewhere. Hiller played Joel, the compassionate best friend, to series star Bridget Everett's character, Sam. Do you remember that time you came to my house and we did Zumba? It's like the only time you ever did it with me. And you were sitting in the garage and you said,

you don't know if I should get on this ride because you weren't sure if you were friendship material. Yeah, it rings a bell. I think about that all the time. God, I'm glad I didn't listen to you. The role earned Hiller his first Emmy Award last year for Outstanding Supporting Actor in a Comedy Series.

He's up for another Emmy this year is for his guest appearance in the Apple TV show Pluribus, which is one of my favorite shows. He has a recurring role in another big Apple TV show right now, Widows Bay, which was recently picked up for a second season.

I really like character actors in general. actually, Widows Bay is rife with amazing character actors, and I just find them to be the most, I think, important and poignant people that don't get attention, and they're often really stick with you long after their roles go away. So let's get to my conversation with Jeff Hiller. Our expert question comes from actor and producer Ali Wentworth, whom Jeff has worked with in the past. She cast him in her sitcom Nightcap. Don't go anywhere. Support for this show comes from Odu. Running a business takes everything you've got,

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Hire the right pro today. What's behind Ukraine's military shakeup? The Ukrainians have now surpassed the United States military and basically every other military on the planet in terms of doctrine for how to fight and integrate these autonomous systems on the battlefield, and we should be learning from them. I'm John Feiner.

And I'm Jake. Sullivan, and we're the hosts of The Long Game, a weekly national security podcast. This week, we're breaking down the dismissal of Ukraine's defense minister, the architect of their drone strategy. The episode's out now. Search for and follow The Long Game, wherever you get your podcasts. Jeff, thank you for coming on on. Thank you for having me on on. On on. See, that's how I did it. That's how it works here. So congratulations on your second Emmy nomination. Thank you.

You've talked about how shocking your first nomination was last year after decades of just trying to make a living as an actor. How did number two compare? Are you one of those happy to be nominated types? Or are you just like, give me that fucking Emmy right now? Okay. I know it's cheesy and I know this answer is like, oh, come on, you're lying. But I swear to you, I truly believe that I am just happy to be in the conversation at all.

Because I got to tell you, like for a long, long time. I was like, you know, temping and teaching improv. Sure. And just the idea that I get to be an actor at all is such a thrill for me. Also, it's like, I'm pretty sure I'm not going to win this one. Okay. I thought I wasn't going to win the last one either, so I don't know. But I am just sort of like.

Wait, who's your biggest company? You're up against Coleman Domingo again. Coleman Domingo, yeah. Jonathan Price. I mean, you know, it's like, and it's also like my role in Plyurvis was, you know, I was just one scene. It was a very good scene. It was just one scene.

It was an excellent scene. I was like, what happened? What happened to him? It's such a spectacular show. Talk about that idea of being an actor. I know a lot of actors, and it's really difficult to keep going in general. I know, and you do sort of think, like, last year when I won an Emmy, I was like, oh, everything's fine now. It's all going to be fine, but it's like, no, it's still slog.

You still got to. to like, you know, audition and, you know, try and fit your weird peg into a square hole. So, yeah, it's always hard. But it's a lot easier once you have a little bit of success. Yes, absolutely. Emmy Award winning. So you managed to land roles in two of the big breakout TV shows that are getting a lot of talk, which is Pluribus and Widows Bay.

And your Emmy nomination for Pluribus, as you just noted, is for a guest appearance, your character, Larry, has to break it to Ray, Seahorn's character, a romance novels named Carol, that her late wife didn't like her books. The idea behind the show is that everyone on Earth except Carol and a few others are now part of the hive mind. They share one mind. Talk a little bit about it because I think it's all about AI because, of course, I'm a tech person. I'm like, this is AI for all of us because it's so sycophantic. It's got all the characters. I know the author said, no, it is not, but I don't care. That's what art is, right?

Yes, exactly. Talk about this character. Well, when I auditioned, they were very secretive about what the hook of the show was. And so they told me, you know, just pretend that you really love her. You're her father. You're talking about her dead mother. I wasn't a part of a hive mind talking about her dead wife. So it was a little confusing.

And at one point he said something and I said, You mean like I know her like, I really know her, or I know her like science fictiony kind of know her. And he's like, science fictiony. Right, right, right, right. So, you know, the audition was complicated. And then when I got there, I went through, you know, a fitting and they gave me this weird, all these different bicycle uniforms.

And I was like, what is this show? And it wasn't until Ray texted me to say, hey, would you like to come over to my place on Sunday, her one day off, you know, she just thought Saturday had been in L.A. because she was in the bad boys movie and she needed to be for the premiere. And so on her one day off from this incredibly intense shoot, she invited me over to her house and the writer, Alison Tatlock, and the director, Zetna Fuentes, sat down and just talked me through this thing, which you just explained actually quite well, very quickly and efficiently. And, but of course, I had like so many more questions. And the big takeaway was that my love for her is genuine, and they really wanted me to have

genuine love for her. And so that was really my sort of guidepost. Do you like my books? Oh, we love your books. What do you love about them? Everything. Your books are an expression of you, and we love you. Need you to be more specific. Character arcs. Plot turns. Oh, yes. Yes. We love the character. arcs and the plot turns. Which ones? All of them. So it was a difficult acting exercise, but it was great. And the director, Zetna, she shot it like a play, and it's a seven-and-a-half-minute scene,

and Allison was like, this never happens in TV, let's just let it breathe and enjoy it. And it was, Ray and I kind of nerded out, like, you know, actors. Yeah, you get to talk. Yeah, exactly. It gets to talk. But you had a shift the conception of the character on the spot, right? Because you're speaking for everyone in some way. Exactly.

And that was the big takeaway is that we all feel this way. But it was also just like knowing all of the words. Like even though you all have the same mind, if you have a Lisp, you'll still have a Lisp post thing. If you have a Limp, you'll still have a limp, that kind of a thing. So I didn't have to worry about like, I don't know, matching pitch or timber or anything, but just this idea of, in that moment we were so in love with her because it was. was kind of before she had done bad things to us. Right, right, before she had.

We'll continue to do so, it seems like, from the last episode. That was the finest end to a season that I thought it was perfect. It was actually perfect. But standing out in just a short role is really remarkable, actually. I still remember that scene between the two. There were several scenes like that, including when she talks about wanting to have an atom bomb at the same time. So how do you go about making that character your own? own while also making him part of the hive.

I mean, it was super complicated, and there was, I mean, there was just so many questions about, like, but am I allowed to be this way or that way? And they were very patient. Right. But because I was just sort of landing and immediately shooting as a guest star is wont to do, the big thing was about just feeling, showing how much I love her. and how this information I know will disappoint her, but I can't lie.

And so I have to very gently tell her this truth that I don't think she's going to want to hear. And in fact, she doesn't want to hear. And I love that. And I love that idea of finding out your partner isn't wild about your work is so juicy. There's that movie, you hurt my feeling. that Nicole Halif-Septner movie that's so good about that exact topic.

Yeah, yeah. So I was really into that concept. And also into this concept of this hive mind, loving her, I'm wanting to protect her, but not being able to lie. Not tell the truth about what's happening. If asked, if asked, because it is a lot of omission by these people. Yeah, like my omission. Yeah, which is what AI does, by the way, FYI.

They omit things. Well, he, I mean, Vincekeleton, has said he's very, very much like there was no AI. No, I don't think it's made in it. I think he's depicted it actually quite beautifully without maybe meaning to. But it's the idea of sycivancy, truthfulness, but not, but sort of anodyne at the same time. It's never that interesting. You know, it's always sort of mid. You know, there's nothing that's not mid that doesn't come out of AI in some fashion. Anyway, you did not do a mid job. So one of the other ones, you said to like have all these character actors, you have a recurring role in the show, Widows Bay. It's mostly a

horror show about people who live on this mysterious island in New England, but in a lot of ways, it's also a workplace comedy. And you play a character who's sort of a functionary in the government. It's not clear what your job is, but you work for the mayor. You are good friends with the show's creator. Katie is a Dippold. She also was a writer and co-producered another great workplace comedy, Parks and Rec. Talk about the comedy role on Widows Bay and why it's important. important in a horror show like this? Well, the thing about Katie Dippold is that this is, I mean, it's very interesting that it's Pluribus and Wooders Bay, they're both on Apple, and they're both by these very specific minds,

these minds that are very unlike anyone else. And because I've known Katie for 24 years, I know her quite well. And the one thing I know her. about her is that she loves comedy writing and she loves horror movies. And she loves them. And she forces upon us. I could see nine movies in that, the slasher episode. Yes, exactly. And she's so versed in all of that. And so when I got the script, I was like, oh, my God, this is both funny and scary. And that's so impressive. It's very difficult to do. Lots of people have tried, but a lot of times it doesn't work, the threading that needle, you know, whatever, walking that line. How many metaphors can I throw out this? Trying to balance that is really difficult. And so, like, I sent in an audition.

I didn't tell her I sent in an audition because I thought, oh, that'll be weird. She's my friend. I don't want her. And also like, that's why you have friends, but go ahead. Oh, shit. You just changed my life. She saw it anyway. And, and. And said, yeah, yeah, this was great. It's not going to work at all. You'd have to do it really differently. Right, right, right.

Because I was a little broad. This Dale character. Yes, exactly. And she also said, it's a very tiny role. I completely get it if you don't want to do it. But I'd love to have you there. But it's a very small role. He's going to die in episode, whatever.

I can't remember what episode it was. And I said, I would love to do it because I would love to get health insurance. Right, right. And so I did it. And then it turned out to be this great show. They let me improvise a little bit here and there. And my role gradually got a little bit bigger until they finally said,

do you mind if we don't kill you off? Which that happened even before I was nominated for an Emmy. So I got to say... Until now, they can't kill you off. I won't give away any spoilers, but your character, Dale seems poised to have a much bigger role in the second season. He's the only one who knows the island's dark secret,

of which there are many, by the way. Where do you see yourself headed with Dale? Dale is a minor role. I was like, where is he? And then you're sitting in a meeting. I was watching it and it's like, the lady with the cigarettes real good. Like, she has a lot of good luck.

Yeah, dear. She's amazing. Has she been waiting forever for that role? I feel like this is the perfect role for this woman. It really is. Yeah. And she got nominated for an Emmy, too. She should.

It was so exciting. But, like, she also has had this incredible career. She was like the daytime hooker on My Name is Earl. and she was in some of those Del Shore movies. She's always been around. Winter's Bone. She was so great. She had this amazing tender movie called Love Song that was so great.

I mean, she is like my dream character after. She's amazing. So where do you see Dale going in this season? I mean, I could give you, they haven't told me a thing. And they're not contractually obligated to bring me back. Okay, all right, all right. I might just be like on the ferry and dying. Wait, were you born there? Can you leave? I don't know.

I guess we don't know yet. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. Maybe I could leave. I don't know. Maybe I'm just on the ferry and I don't even get the dying scene. Right, that's true. But you know the secret. Yeah, I think the fact that he knows this secret is going to play into something. And I really hope that he, I would love to see him get some sort of a horror movie episode that parodies a horror movie that we, my dream, I told us at the Sarah on a podcast. Sorry, I'm repeating. But my dream is that it would be a Rosemary's baby situation. Oh. He has somebody in his house. It's okay if you said another podcast. We're bigger.

That is true, actually. So why Rosemary's baby? Because it's campy and the idea that like this like lame, you know, like spacey guy who doesn't even know that he should buy premium when he's a DJ goes home and he's like cruel to his twin brother. Right, right, right, right. Feeding him a dead bird or whatever. Yeah, yeah, that's true. You could do that. I was thinking you were the Ruth.

Oh, Ruth Gordon. Yeah. It's just Tannis root, though, Mary. Yeah. I'll do that too. Well done. Well done. You could also be pregnant.

You could be pregnant. How would you describe it for people who haven't seen it? I would call it, I called it aggressively quirky to someone the other day. Aggressively. If you don't like our... Daddy's got... Daddy's coming home, you know, the games. It's true.

It's its very own world. And I think the big thing is it tries to be genuinely hilarious and genuinely scary. And I think it's successful at that. So you're in two different shows, Plurvis in this, although they're similar. They have a similar vibe. Why do you think people are liking these shows, right? They also like ride or die, which is kind of ridiculous. and fun, you know. But what, and please, I recommend it to everybody. It's so ridiculous and fantastic.

I haven't seen it yet. I can't wait now. A lot of Hannah Waddington kicking ass, so it's fine. Oh, I do love her. Yeah. But what do you think is resonating with people right now with these kind of unusual severance is in that sort of genre? Yes. Well, I think it's, um, these are dark worlds, but it's not like our dark world. Yeah. You know, it's like we can figure it out. We can pull apart the lore and figure out this mystery, whereas we don't have that kind of control in our own life because there's, I mean, every time you open the New York Times, it's like, what? Yeah. That happened?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It would be really nice to be able to drive someone in a boat out to the periphery and then they just explode. That would be great. It really would be. We'll be back in a minute. Support for this show comes from Quince. A nice linen set lets you get away with a lot of outfit repetitions in the summer. You could wear the same one to a laid-back barbecue or upscale seaside restaurant and still feel classy.

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That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com slash Kara for free shipping and 365-day returns, Quince.com slash Kara. Support for this show comes from Delete Me. stalkers, scammers, and hackers are doing whatever it takes to get their hands on valuable data. Luckily, there's Delete Me. Delete Me removes your personal information that's being sold online. It does all the hard work to wipe your personal information from data broker websites. It's one of the reasons Delete Me was named the top pick for data removal services by wirecutter.

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Kara at checkout. The only way to get 20% off is to go to join Deleteme.com. com slash Kara and enter the code Kara at checkout. That's join deleteme.com slash Kara code Kara. Support for the show comes from Grooons. Summer can disrupt our routines with busy weekends that are full of travel and events and with everything going on, it can be hard to remember to stick to your wellness habits. Well, Grooons is one of the wellness habit you don't have to think about. It can be the easiest, tastiest part of your busy schedule. Grunes are a convenient, comprehensive formula in one delicious daily pack of gummy bears. This is an a multivitamin, a greens, gummy, or a prebiotic, it's all of these things and then some at a fraction of the price, and it tastes great.

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Before your recent successes, you had a lot of bit parts is sort of the stereotypical, sassy gay man. In your memoir that came out last year, you write, quote, If you're obviously gay but not hot, your roles are limited. You just play the bitchy gay. Now you have a more established career in Emmy. Talk a little bit about this because I assume you get more range now or perhaps not.

Somewhat, yeah, I think I get to audition for things that I wouldn't have been able to audition for before. But I think, you know, at the end of the day, I look like I look, and you can't plug me into just anything. Like, no one's going to cast me as a romantic lead. And I don't need to play the romantically. A lot of times those are really boring parts. But, you know, it takes a while to convince other people

that you would successfully play something that you haven't successfully played previously. Now, you told the Hollywood Reporter back in May that despite winning this Emmy last year, you hadn't worked all in 2026. Is that still the case? I regret saying that. It makes me sound so pitiful. But yeah. I was talking about the end.

industry, not specifically about me, but that is still true, yes. A lot of friends of mine who are well-known, have had a hard time. Yeah, it's just, you know, all of these conglomerations that are merging with other conglomerations, I know that that's maybe up in the air now, but I just feel like, or, you know, the latest one, not all of them. But I think that there's just a lot less content happening, especially post-strike. I think people realize, like, the streaming method isn't really a way to make money. And so they don't know the way forward yet.

And so that means just a lot less work. And I'm so grateful that Wittersbeg got a second season and that hopefully they've written themselves into a corner to bring me back. But yeah, it's been surprisingly dry. Talk a little bit from an actor's point of view. I write a lot about the consolidation from a business point of view and where it's going. But what is it like for actors like yourself when you're looking at these right now, big story is the Paramount Warner Brothers discovery. The federal judge did put it on hold.

We'll see where it goes from there. But these are happening. These are happening. And then on top of that, there's AI that people are talking about. It hasn't really gone anywhere yet. So far, Tilly Norwood is not killing it. I love her, though. She's so great. She is. She's really good. She's so interesting. Yeah, so interesting. Do you, how do you think about it as an actor now, just as a working actor? because a lot of people hear from, you know, the studios or the production companies or what does Netflix think and this and that.

How do you as an actor think about what's happening? I mean, just because it affects me, you know, rather directly, especially as someone who's, you know, Nicole Kidman is probably okay. Yeah. She's still in the theater and no one will go with her in those ads if you notice. It's heartbreaking, but it's good in a place like that. I know. She's always alone in the thing. I was like, could you not have a friend that you can't take to it?

Anyway. She doesn't want anybody to distract from her sparkly suit. Right. That's true. She is kind of sad. And like, not even, anyway, I once saw the purge all by myself in a movie theater and I thought, this is cool. Oh, wow. That's a movie to go to alone, actually.

I know, exactly. Yeah. So it's, I find it, you know, kind of scary. And when we were striking in 2023, you know, AI was a big part of that. And I worry because I think what you're saying right now is true. Like it is very mid currently. I don't know that in the future people won't, you know,

weed Taco Bell. We're okay with mid. Right, right, right. That people won't accept it. You mean audiences. Yes, exactly. And, you know, that's a little scary. And, you know, kind of makes me feel like a,

I don't know, coal miner or something where I'm like, oh no, am I in this dying industry? Right, right. And when you look at the mergers, now mergers have happened before. They've happened lots of times, but how does it actually impact working actors like yourself? What are you all talking about? Well, the big thing is that across the board, no matter if you have won an award or not, people are saying there's no money, there's no money. there's no money.

We cannot pay you anything more than the bare minimum that the union says we're allowed to pay you. And a lot of times that bare minimum, you can't support yourself off on that because a lot of characters like myself, we're working three, four days a year. Not now. Like now I have Wooders Bay or what have you,

but most of the time, three or four days of a year of work is good, it's like a great year. for just normal actor. And you would often, if you got a commercial or something, that the residuals would last you for the entire year and you might not have to have a temp job for that year. And that's just not, this is just not a possibility at all.

And on top of that, of course, I know I'm saying stuff that everybody's heard a million times, but like rent is so high. And we all have to live in these major cities where the rent is even higher than the rent in other cities. And so it just makes, makes it so that you can't be, you can just never get ahead financially. You can never feel safe financially. And it's terrifying. I mean, like even just like pilot season, there used to be

a pilot season. And even if you got a pilot and the pilot didn't get picked up, you made enough money from that pilot that you would be able to not work for a long time. And it's like you get six episodes and the next one we're going to film in two years. Where it used to be 22 episodes every year. Right. Yeah. It's funny that, you know, even winning Emmy doesn't insulate you from this, but I have a lot of friends at one of Emmys, and it's, they say the exact same thing, and you're sort of surprised. One of my friends has just got a regular broadcast show, and she was like, it's 22 episodes. I don't know what to do, right, rather than six, six to eight. I know. Trimmy. Sexy. Get yourself on Law & Order or something, one of those.

I know. I want to. Yeah, you have to be. You'd be good as a quirky. I did play a computer tech. on law and order criminal intent. Did you? Okay. Yeah, but I got cast, and I was a recurring role, but I got cast in the last season.

Oh, oh, the last one. I shot my first episode, and the next day they announced it was canceled. Right, right. Not all law and orders go to the moon. No, it's true. But we are very happy for Mariska. So we are.

I love her. I know, she's great. I like your whole jam right now, what's happening with her. Me too. But you have talked about finding success and actor later in your life in late 40s.

It was the subhead of your or actress of a certain age, my 20-year trail to overnight success, which I love the title. Talk about that. Talk about what, and what advice would you give to someone who's in the same position you were in five or six years ago? Well, my advice is show business isn't fair. I definitely don't subscribe to the idea that if I did it, you can too. Like, I got lucky. I got so lucky. I'm fully aware that I got lucky. And I often think, like, if something, like, if something, Somebody's like, it's not worth it for me anymore. I want to quit.

I'm like, I support you. Go get an apartment with laundry in it. How fun. HVAC. That's the way to go. You don't think there'll be robots doing that eventually or no? Eventually, but you'll be dead by that time, so don't worry about it. Okay, maybe I'll go get into HVAC.

Yeah, so I think my advice would be two things. One, don't compare yourself to other actors because it always ends up crappy. And also, you never know what's happening beyond the deadline article. And two, the other thing would be even if you're not getting paid or getting awards, your art is just as valuable as anyone else's. Because I think for so often I thought like, oh, I wasn't a good actor because I wasn't full time. And I think that's kind of bullshit. Yeah, I know. I recently interviewed Mark Maren. He's talked about getting his big break later in life, too, which was via podcasting. In fact, he said he didn't think he'd be able to handle the fame if he found it earlier in his life. How do you think about that?

I have heard him talk about that. And, you know, he also had to get sober and stuff like that. And I think I could have handled it fine. Yeah. I'm pretty boring. But the big break you had was in HBO show somebody somewhere, which. which is a wonderful show. You play Joel, a compassionate best friend to Bridget Everett's character, Sam. Last year, as we noted you won

the Emmy for Outstanding Supporting Actor in a Comedy series. The show ended in 2024, but talk about that character of Joel and how you envisioned it. Because it's a very touching relationship. I mean, it's a relationship show, obviously, but that's the key relationship in it. Right.

So when I got the role, when I read the pilot, I was so shocked because he talks about being involved in the church, and he talks about being obsessed with Bridget and about being, like, not very popular in high school. And I just kept thinking, like, oh, this is just like me, because I grew up in the church, and I was obsessed with actual Bridget. And I remember I took this class from Marcy Phillips, who's the casting for ABC, and it was a class on how to become a series regular, and she was like,

you need to find a role that's kind of like you. And I thought, like, they don't write roles like me. Right, they don't. No, because this is a very specific middle-class life in a small Midwest town. It's about grief. It's about chosen family quite a bit. And they don't have fancy jobs or live in big modern houses.

Joel drives old Beulik, the Sabre, and dreams of owning a Vitamix. Do you think Hollywood's moved away from telling those kind of stories? They used to be quite prevalent, if you think about it. I feel like it's such an anomaly that we even got that show on the air. Well, Roseanne. There was a bunch before she lost her mind. Yeah.

There was a bunch. I guess that's Roseanne, yeah. And like the middle and things like that. That's true. They were all very much family sitcoms. And I don't know of any other show that's so focused on chosen family as this one is. Well, you'd have to say friends, even if you don't like that show. Oh, I guess you're right.

That is kind of about chosen family, isn't it? Yeah. It's a bunch of straight people in New York with a fantastic apartment, but that's different. Let's face it. What this show really did that was different is it cast Fuggos, right? It cast people that aren't gorgeous. Okay. And I think it was so rare that they did that.

And it's, they definitely aren't doing it now. I know that for a fact. And I think it's just, that's kind of, there's like a, I was going to say, there's a beauty in that. But there is. There's like a representation matters. And it's nice to see people who aren't a double zero and have, you know. Yeah, and they're solidly middle class. They're not, and they're not rich.

They're not, yeah, and their problems are relatable. And in the same way that, like, people, I mean, people love Widows Bay and Polarabas way more than they love somebody somewhere. But I think in the same way that, like, seeing this world that is so different than ours is kind of a relief, I think there is also a truth in seeing a world that is attainable. Right. It is actually a really beautiful thing to be able to see and have. Yeah. The show also challenges viewers' expectations of what life in the rural Midwest can look like, right? We have images of that that are probably out of date.

Joel is an out gay man who goes to church and is surrounded by other queer people and straight people who love. them. It's really interesting to, as you say, someone like yourself. It does challenge our perceptions of what people's lives are like. I mean, I have a cousin who lives in a rural area and goes to church. He's gay. You know what I mean? A very similar kind of. Yeah. I see, and that's, that was my thing, too, is like, I knew that person so well, even if I wasn't exactly that person, guys, I don't go to church every Sunday, and I don't live in the Midwest. I live in New York City. But I still I knew, I don't know, 10 versions of that person from my time growing up in Texas. And I went to school at a Lutheran College in Sigeon, Texas.

And I knew so many out or like, you know, glass closet out, gay folks, both men and women, who found their community in their church. But I'd never seen it portrayed in media, ever, not even in a novel. And it also, it wasn't playing. it like his Christianity was a joke and it wasn't it didn't just fall into this idea of like what the news paints Christians as in general which you know there are definitely those people who are sort of right ring but it's clear that Joel is a part of a progressive church they're handing out toiletry kits in one episode they're blessing animals and another one these are this is not

um the easy depiction of a of a church that's just you know kill the gays. Right, yeah. And it also challenges the idea that all gay people live outside of cities, live in fear, and in the closet. Right. Which is interesting. I was just this week in Traverse City,

visiting Pete Buttigieg and Chaston. Wow. Yeah, it was interesting. Of course, they just had a very terrible thing happened from their kids. But it was really interesting, and I was like, why do you live here? Like, where are you going?

You know what I mean? It was really, and they were something like, Oh, that's not being an asshole, Kara, essentially. But it was, you know, they love it there because they have kids and it's better for kids and they have family around them. And they definitely deal with, you know, a lot of things they don't love there. At the same time, they have a lot of support too. And so it's sort of this, you know, one would assume the minute you step off a plane and somewhere like that, you're going to get a very different, you know, or if you're fearful as gay person. Right. And I think that I'm, I don't think the show was trying to say that like, like there's never like microaggressions or like certainly misgendering happens all the time. But that happens all the time in New York for Murray. So yeah, yeah, but I do think that because so many, when I would do press for it, people would be like,

tell us about this fantasy, this fantasy of queer people in Kansas. We went to Kansas. Bridget's actually from Manhattan, Kansas. And we went there and we met, I mean, you know, we met a lot of, mostly straight folks, but there were like a lot of queer folks that came out, you know, of course they came out specifically for the queer show. But there are even like a shop that's owned there by a trans man. And I guess what I'm trying to say is that is the case, you know, people live where people live.

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That's odio-o.com slash vox. I wanted zero in a little bit to talk about faith in the church, because in your memoir you write really beautifully about church and growing up in it. It was a place of belonging for you and an escape from bullying you experienced in school. You even considered becoming a pastor, which was really interesting. You still can, by the way. This Emmy thing doesn't work out. HVAC or pastor?

One of the two. Pastors probably better. Although you'd make more money with age vikes. Your relation with religion got more complicated. You got older and came out and you no longer tend. Talk a little bit about that because that was a thing of moving part of the book I found. I grew up Catholic and I haven't been in a Catholic church since I was confirmed, which I did for my grandmother.

But now with this new Pope, I'm like, I kind of like it. I know. It draws you in in a way. talk a little bit about your views and how you think about it now. Well, see, when I was growing up, the church was the place that helped poor people, specifically poor people. And it was all about, it was about helping people. It wasn't just poor people, I guess, but it was about helping people who were in need.

It was a huge part of it. It was like the first and foremost part of it. It wasn't about rules or saying you're living in a way. that is not right. It was about helping people. We had the food bank, we had the clothing bank. There was a rental assistance program there. And so for me, when I hear church,

I think there are so many folks that hear church and they're like, I don't want to have any part of that. But because I grew up in this slightly progressive church, I think of it as community, and I think of it as being beautifully sacrificial, and helpful and kindness. And so I don't have those negative associations with church that a lot of people do.

And like you said, this new Pope, even the last Pope was pretty good too. Yeah, he was. He was a pre-Pope for this Pope. Pre-Pope. American Pope, making everything cool. Right, yeah. But I also feel, you know,

I used to know all of these really cool progressive nuns, too. And I worked, I did, after college, I did this, I called it a Christian commune. It's a little tongue in cheek, but where we were actively, you know, boots on the ground, helping folks. And that is the church I choose to believe in. That actively helps people and is good for the world

rather than just this current church that gets all the press that's about like just, I don't know, hating on people, just period. I was going to list some people, but there's a lot of people. They're focused on James Tel Rico this week. Right. So that particular branch of the church, the hate. It's going to lead you into whatever women's bathrooms or something.

I'm fascinated by how they're using trans and gender. But that said, we're seeing young people return to the church in ways. My son started going to church. I never brought him into a church ever. Wow. What kind of? Catholic. Catholic.

Really? Yeah, he's now going to Eastern Orthodox now. I'm like, no, we're not doing this. We're not doing this. You know, the food is excellent during the festivals, but no. But he can do what he wants. They have a lot of gold leaf in there. It's pretty.

Do they? I told him I'd go to a service of them. But I think it's community is what he's looking for. Yeah. And the positive role that faith can play in a person's life, because we talk a lot about that. And queer people have been building church-like communities forever. It's one of the plot points in somebody somewhere,

actually, but historically we're born out of exclusion from mainstream society. How do you look at it now and how do you create spaces without asking people to be someone they're not? Well, God, I don't know. It's a great question. I don't know if I have a good answer. I think, well, first of all, I'm not, the one way I'm really not like Joel is I'm not someone who creates spaces for people.

I'm a joiner, not a leader, hardcore. But I do think what I have a gift for is I listen. I listen a lot more than I think most, I was going to say most actors, but I think most people, I think I listen more than most people. And I think that is a gift for creating community is acknowledging the other members of the community. The bar is low. Yeah, yeah.

Are you interested in this push towards the church, you know, the belonging the church can provide and creating those spaces? I mean, I get it. Like, it's all about community. And I think community is absolutely necessary. And I think that I think you just have to be careful that you're finding your community in a space that supports you rather than hurts you. And because I do feel like I could totally fall for a cult.

I have to really be. Oh, wow. Okay. I have to really be on the lookout for that. I think all successful sitcoms are about a family, creating a community. At Widows Bay, you have your group of weirdos, just like the office, or something like that, or something like that. And you're right, you're right.

It is all about finding family. And that's what I think probably life is kind of about, right? Yeah, in a lot of ways. So every episode we get a question from an outside expert. Here is yours. Hi, I'm Allie Wentworth. And I first met Jeff Hiller when I cast him in my show Nightcap, and he was brilliant. Jeff is the warmest, most insightful, optimistic human being I've ever met.

So my question for you, Jeff, is, what keeps you up at night? It could be macro like what's happening around the world. It could be micro like you have too many mice in your apartment. But what causes Jeff Hiller insomnia? Mice in my apartment. Come on, Allie. I mean, I think it depends on the night. But I will say I sleep pretty well.

Yeah, okay. I'm pretty good at sleeping. I will say last night I was up worried about my sister because my sister just had to put her dog down. And I couldn't sleep thinking about that. And I think that's probably, I think if we say macro or micro, I think I do tend to focus on individuals and people hurting. I'm constantly thinking about children in Iran and Palestine.

Children in war zones. Children or I just, I don't know why I'm not worried about the old ladies. I guess I'm worried about them too, but I just think I do think about kids all the time who are just by, bad luck of being born in a place that's full of turmoil. I think about that a lot. That is a worthy thing to worry about. That is a worry thing to worry about. I mean, but what does worry get you? You got to start doing stuff, right? Well, no. Worry's okay. It's okay to be just worry. Yeah, yeah. It means you're alive, actually.

That's deep, actually, yeah. Thank you. Thank you. That's good. So, yeah, I sleep well, too, oddly. I'm like, I'll deal with it tomorrow. Yeah, that is sort of what I... Yeah, I'm always like that asshole. I'm going to go to sleep now. I recently interviewed the let them lady, Mel Robbins.

Oh, yeah. You know her, let them. But she hasn't out. She has let me, which I have to point out to people. She doesn't let them. She lets me. Wait, but do you think that the... Are you saying...

I think she's saying let them, and it's very appealing. It's like, yes, I'll let it go. But then she has a thing that says, let me. which is what is my action going to be. I see. You see, it's an out. Because let them be an asshole, but let me take a stick and hit them. You see what I mean?

So it's the same thing. You're not really letting them, are you? That's really where you went, huh? Yeah. Oh, that's interesting. That's not where I would go. No, really interesting. What would seek some of lesbian?

This is the problem. I'm Carol. I'm Carol. You're Carol. You're right. And I'm Larry. Yeah. Adam Ball.

Adam bomb. We're going to be doing the atom bomb. Anyway, let's not end on that. Kara's blowing up the world. Because I also want to know my last question, what gives you hope? Because you are a hopeful person and you play hopeful characters. You really do. They're always sort of looking on the right side of things. It's from you, presumably. It's also from the writers, obviously, but you get picked for those roles. And I do talk a lot on the show about the need for people to find hope right now because a lot of it can feel overwhelming. So I'd like to end by asking you, what? you know, gives you hope right now. This is sort of a controversial answer because I think a lot of people don't find hope in this, but I find that the younger generation, the folks that I'm interacting with,

every older generation, because like when I'm Gen X and I remember all of the, like, slacker on the cover of time and all that business, and so every generation gets shit from the previous one, But I just keep finding young people who don't want to put up with people who are hoarding wealth and who are not down with being loose with their language, who are wanting to be respectful of people. And I find that to be hopeful for the future. I would agree with you with young people.

I have a lot of kids, and two of my older kids are like that. And everyone's like, are you overwhelmed? I'm like, no. Because of them, not because of you. Not you in particular, but whoever I'm talking. to. I'm like, you people 25 to 50 need to go away and let the people under 25 run everything because it's a very exciting time for them in a lot of ways. The way they're voting, the way they're talking about things and the politicians that are attracted to also is really interesting.

It's giving everyone else the rash, but if I find it very hopeful in some ways. Me too. Yeah, absolutely. Anyway, keep doing your wonderful characters. I'm excited for Dale to have a big role. You too. And wait, what's her name? Dale, also Dale, right? Yes, Dale Dickey. She plays, what's her character's name?

Rosemary. Rosemary, which is a great name, by the way. But I hope you two have a spinoff. That's my whole goal. The two of you have a spinoff in some way. Like you get on a boat and start, like, wander to another island in some fashion. Start our own island cult. She'll lead, I'll follow.

Myth and toys, you know, island of this, which were, in fact, all the gay characters and all those kids things, if you think of us. It's true. I saw that little swoop. Yes, yes, yeah, exactly. But good luck with next season and... Thank you. Amazing job.

Thank you. Today's show was produced by Michelle Aloy, Catherine Millsopp, Madeline LaPlante Duvie, Megan Burnie, and Kaelin Lynch. Nishot Kerwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Special thanks to Catherine Barner, Dave Shaw, and Julia Sharp Levine. Our engineers are Fernando Aruda and Rick Kwan, and our theme music is by Tracademics. If you're already following this show, you're sleeping well.

If not, you're eating Taco Bell and... and you're okay with Mid. Go wherever you listen to a podcast, search for On with Carous Swisher, and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On with Carous Swisher from Podium Media, New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us.

We'll be back on Thursday with more. Running a business shouldn't feel like surviving a software group project. One app for accounting, another for inventory, another for sales, and somehow none of them talk to each other. That's where Odo comes in, an all-in-one business management software

that brings every part of your business together. From sales and accounting to inventory and marketing, all in one powerful platform. No messy integrations, no bouncing between tabs, and best of all, no spreadsheets. Stop managing software and start managing your business with one unified system. Try for free today at odu.com slash Vox. That's ODOO.com slash Vox. Hey, y'all, it's Kelly Clarkson with Wayfair. Ever order furniture online and wonder, what if?

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