On with Kara Swisher - How Architecture Can Solve Big Social Problems with Jeanne Gang

Episode Date: April 30, 2026

Jeanne Gang is a renowned architect and the founder of Studio Gang, an international architecture and urban design firm. She joins Kara to discuss her work and the design philosophy behind some of her most recognizable buildings, including the Aqua Tower in Chicago and the Gilder Center at the American Museum of Natural History in New York.  Jeanne explains her concept of “actionable idealism" and why she believes architecture has the power to connect people to each other and the environment. Jeanne and Kara also discuss sustainable building in an era of worsening climate change and why good public design starts with talking with locals to find out what they need. Plus: Jeanne shares her thoughts on arches and President Trump’s White House renovations. Questions? Comments? Email us at [e-mail] or find us on YouTube, Instagram, TikTok, Threads, and Bluesky @onwithkaraswisher. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

How would you describe your sensibility? Because it's not whimsical. There's a lot of architects who are whimsical. Not whimsical. I don't even like that word at all. I don't either. Good. Hi, everyone.

From New York Magazine and the Box Media Podcast Network. This is On with Kara Swisher and I'm Kara Swisher. My guest today is architect Jeannie Gang. She leads Studio Gang, an international architecture and urban design firm. Some of her standout projects include the Gilder Center at the American Museum of Natural History and Solar Carve, which are both in Manhattan, the Arcus Center for Social Justice Leadership in Kalamazoo, Michigan, and the Populous Hotel in Denver.

Gang's first skyscraper, the 82-story Aquatower in Chicago, was the tallest female-designed one in the world, that is, until she designed the 101-story St. Regis Chicago Tower. Gang's work has been praised for its boldness and common sense. Her designs are remarkably varied, no two buildings look alike. They're united by the desire to connect people to each other and to the environment. Gang has received many honors over the course of her career, including the MacArthur Fellowship, and most recently the 26 Thomas Jefferson Foundation Medal in Architecture.

She's also a professor at the Harvard Graduate School of Design. I know it's unusual for me to interview an architect, but I actually wanted to be one a long time ago, and in fact went to a summer school at the Harvard School of Design and found out that I wasn't very talented at architecture. And I decided to go into journalism instead, which I was, as it turns out, pretty good at. But architecture has always inspired me, and I renovate a lot of houses. I do a lot of things around architecture. And when I saw Gangs Aqua Tower in Chicago, without even knowing she had done it, I was so moved and thought it was such a beautiful building. I needed to know everything about the architect who made it. And of course, it was Jeannie Gang. Every time I look at one of

her buildings, I'm inspired. They're all different. And as she'll talk about it, later. They are like poetry, but in architecture. And I really do admire her, and I think it's important to talk to people. I admire, and I think you will once you get to know her. Our expert question today comes from Justin Davidson, architecture critic for New York Magazine, and Curbed. Even if you know nothing about architectural, you want to hear this because gang is working to solve major social and environmental problems that affect us all. This is a great conversation, so stick around. Support for this show comes from Grow Therapy.

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today to get started. That's growtherapy.com slash box. Growtherapy.com slash box. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan. Jeannie, thanks for coming on on. Thanks for having me. So you are my single favorite architect. I don't know if you know that, but you are indeed. And that's why I have you here. Well, that's special. That's an honor. It's an honor. So you have a very expansive view of architecture and what it's capable of accomplishing. And you often use the phrase, actionable idealism to describe what you do. I thought that was really interesting. Can you explain what that means and how the concept manifests itself in architecture and your work? Well, that came about. I was trying to communicate why, I guess, why we do architecture. And oftentimes you receive a brief and it has the parameters of what you're supposed to design. But I found that like sometimes there's a lot more opportunity to what, the impact a project can have than just what's in that brief. So this comes from the idea that

we are idealistic. We want, you know, to make the world a better place and to improve the condition. But we also have to be realistic and actionable means that step by step we can get there, but we need to think about the long view and work intentionally toward each day, toward making that a reality, to make the cities we want to have, to make the cities we want to have, the world we want to live in. And so that's what it means for us. And I think in the work, it's really about, you know, looking for that connection between the immediate project and the longer goal. So one example is sometimes we do projects that are not a brief at all. It might be just something we want to do with our skills as architects as being able to help people visualize things and

imagine things. So one of the first examples I guess I could give is just that the Chicago River which is a place, it's a resource, it's a river, it was reversed 100, more than 100 years ago. And as an environment, it has become polluted, it causes flooding it, and all these things. And in that reversal, I actually had some negative impacts downstream as well with pollutants. It was to save the drinking water of Chicago, but the pollutants ended up going all the way down into the Gulf of Mexico and causing other problems. So this idea of like what could we do about this situation of the river was the subject of the thought. And then we worked with other not-for-profits and things to try to help envision what it could look like if we un-reversed the river.

What could it be? What would the potential be? What would the benefits be? And so it's a little bit like working scientifically with researchers and people that understand the animal and wildlife that live in the river, people that are saying engineering, infrastructure. and so on, and bringing those things together to kind of try to imagine what a different way could be. So that was the kind of impetus of really churning on people to accessing the river. I guess the number one step for people was to appreciate that that is a resource. It's not just an industrial waterway, it's many things to people, animals, and so on.

So this is through architecture to do this. So through architecture is what brings people to that. It's the beauty of architecture. It's the ability of it to bring people together that can start to spark that action. So with the river, we and some other architects did projects along the river to give access to the public. And we did these boat houses, designed boat houses that were for youth and boating groups. And they start to engage with the river in new ways and realize it's like even if it's dirty, it's still ours, you know. And that helps to activate people toward being stewards, toward caring about it.

So let's talk about your larger career in design philosophy. Because, I mean, many people don't think about architecture in this way. But you started your firm studio gang in Chicago in 1997. And you realized early, I love this because I didn't want to work for men. I don't want to be boss by them, end quote. I get this completely. That's how I designed my career. Not men.

I don't want to be boss by any. but talk about how you sort of begin the firm itself. Well, at that time, there weren't too many women-run firms to work for it. And also, and it wasn't just because they're men. It's just like the model of it was, you know, very constraining. And I always thought of architecture as a medium, more like a medium that you can use to put projects into the world, you know, working together with other, with clients and collaborators, but also just your own thoughts. which is what I was talking about with the river.

So I was thinking that architecture could be much more of a mode of expression, a way to be in the world, a way to act in the world. And that's just what I wanted to set up, and it just didn't exist. So that's why I had to, and I looked forward to starting my own thing. Why didn't it exist? I think it was just, you know, the constraints of each profession and architecture was set up in the way that it has a certain, we do have to protect the health, safety and welfare of the public

and people that use our buildings. And so there's rules like that, but there's other ways you can practice as well that are either scholarly research or activations or, you know, guerrilla architecture, I guess you could say. You can do many things that help express what you believe in, what you care about. It's just the profession itself, it had some constraints.

I think that's what people were following. But now it's much more open. There's people doing a lot of really interesting things. I think maybe I was on the front end of that. Yeah. Although, I mean, historically, you had Julia Morgan or Louise Blanchard Bethune Buffalo. I loved her architecture for sure. Yeah.

There's definitely hidden figures within the architecture realm of, women that have been practicing for a long time. And it's great to bring their stories forward, too. So nearly half of the world's population live in cities where the relation between people and nature is arguably under strain. And this is something you're just talking about. And you've talked about how you view yourself as a relationship builder between people, communities, and nature. Talk about some of the ways that has worked out. And what are some of the ways you strengthen that relationship? And what's the problem? I'm a big observer of nature and I love, I learn a lot from it and I am inspired by it. So I've always been thinking about why isn't there more biodiversity

within cities? Because I think a lot of people born in cities or kids born in cities might not be exposed to that amazing wealth of biodiversity. So I think when I think about relationships, I always think about ecosystems because we're part of a bigger web of life. and we're just one part of it, and there's many other parts of it, including the water and the air, but all the living things. So how can we make places that highlight that relationship, that let us have access to that? And so I've been really excited about working in cities where you can bring that to the fore, or even in just an ordinary project, how can you bring more awareness about the environment and set up a place where people can have that relationship.

What gets in the way of that? How do you strengthen it and what hinders that? Well, I think one thing is people have separated themselves from nature or not even considered ourselves animals who we are. So there's just that construct of separation between humans and animals. And so we've done that with our environments. We've paved things. We put trees in cities.

We put them in small containers in the ground and don't let them connect to each other. So there's just a lack of understanding of how it all works together. And we've designed out for whatever reason the relationships. So it's tried to bring them back together. Like, you know, designing a place in the city, one of the places we designed was the nature boardwalk at Lincoln Park Zoo. So I don't really like zoos that much. But this is a zoo with no cages in it. And it's just an outdoor area that has a pond that we revamped so that it could sustain life in it.

And added a boardwalk for people to use in a pavilion. And it's just a really rich area full of nature. People love going there. And it's right in the middle of the city. These days, I'm worried more about what's not in the city. since cities are starting to be in a way more biodiverse than what's outside the city, you know, because of the way people's preferences for just monoculture lawns and things like that.

And also just the way that the area around the outside of city has become more occupied by logistics and data centers and things like that. And it's starting to really change the balance there. So maybe cities are actually kind of like a very, important safety place for. Yeah. Oh, that's interesting. You're right. Data centers. I'll get to data centers. That thing you're talking about is in Chicago. It's beautiful. It's a beautiful place. But obviously, your most famous building is the Aqua Tower in Chicago. It's an 82-story skyscraper that was completed in 2010. It's your first skyscraper, I think, is that correct? I didn't even think I was going to be doing one of those. Well, it's a remarkable building.

For anyone who has not seen it, it's both technical and from an end. aesthetic point of view. Talk about the tower itself because besides being beautiful and striking, it's also interacting with the environment in a way that people may not realize initially. Yeah, absolutely. Every floor is a slightly different shape, which creates this visual of almost waves along the facade, but it's really made up of individual floor plates. And the reason why they are the way they are, which is irregular, I would say, like irregular organics curved. It allows people to see other people while they're on the facade when they're out on their balcony as opposed to, you know, like trying to separate them off. So it feels more like you're on the porch or something

as opposed to in a little box. So another thing that the irregularity does is to break up the wind pressure. So it doesn't build up speed. So it confuses the, wind. And that way it makes it more comfortable for people to be on their balcony, even in a city like Chicago, which is windy and also pretty cold most of the time. But the idea was just like at the time, how can we do a tall building that allows people to be out and be part of the city and part of their building at the same time, kind of in a community, see each other and just step outside, which when we did that, it really wasn't that there weren't that many buildings.

No, they're straight up and down. Most skyscrapers have, may if they have balconies, they're not accessible to other people. Right. They're inside. And this is, you still want privacy if you live in a tall building, but you also want community. And that's what we were trying to bring to that project. And it looks like birds, or the wind, it looks like the wind essentially moving. Was there a design idea there to make it look like that?

Well, like I said, I really look a lot at nature and the processes of nature. And sometimes you find patterns that exist in one thing or a totally different thing. In this case, I was kind of inspired by those rocks along Lake Michigan that are eroded by the wind or water. But then that also looks like a pattern. Someone sent me a photo of a pattern of sand on a beach that looked exactly like it. Yes, where wind has hit, yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, you find these synergies between these different patterns that you find in nature.

And they're always for a reason, and they exist at different scales. Why did you not want to build a skyscraper? You said you never thought you would build one. I didn't not want to. I just didn't think anyone would ever ask me to. To be honest, because when I started my firm, I had worked in bigger firms. And really, at that time, it was really the corporate firms that were doing the high rises. So I got a lucky break.

I ran with it. I hadn't pictured it before. But when I started, I like to start with like this beginner's mind with everything. And I did with that. I was like, why are people designing high rises the way they are, which were really, and you still see this, like compositions of different patterns of grids and different curtain walls and colors and textures. And I was really thinking about like, how does it feel to live there? And it can be isolating.

I mean, get in an elevator and you are, it feels awkward. You don't have an outlet for connecting to your neighbors very well. So that was driving it. That was one problem I saw or opportunity. and then just the fact that you just can't be outside outdoors and see other people. And that's one of the things that led to the design. Design of that. Yeah.

So like with my work and our work, I would say we always try to find like functional reasons, technical reasons. At the time with Aquatower was like, you can't make every floor different. Are you crazy? because how are we going to build that? And luckily, working together with engineers and the developer of that building, Jim Lomberg, who happened to be an architect also, but he was a developer, he was like,

I think we can do this. We talked about flexible formwork. We could use GPS to lay out the points, and all the technology was there. It just hadn't been used that way before. But, you know, in a lot of ways, designer Thomas Heatherwick says, we've gotten used to buildings that are boring and says new buildings are, quote,

too monotonous, too anonymous, too serious. And obviously, that's not an issue with your buildings. Do you think many of your fellow architects are reluctant to depart from that norm that you're talking about and take these aesthetic risks? Well, I think modernism was a very strong influence on a lot of us. And there is, and not that many people can do beautiful curves, to be honest, I mean, some people make curves and they just look ugly. So they know it and they just stay away from it.

I'm not saying I do all curves, but I know how to make it look good. And so there's maybe an avoidance of it because there's difficulty. There can be expense if you're not using the right materials. It's very difficult to curve, let's say, wood, or not just wood, but any material. Concrete is pretty easy because it's fluid. But anyway, that could be one reason. And then I think that it's not just the architects. It could be that the owners of the people commissioning the buildings want something more ordinary or that looks like whatever is next to it.

Not every building should be extraordinary, maybe. Some buildings should be quieter and flexible. And, you know, so those are all things that we have to take into account all of us architects and budgets and budgets. and there's many, many factors. That's one reason I love architecture. It's like it's not just my art, you know. It's what I do with each client that makes, produces something totally different. Different and new.

Every time. Uh-huh, like something that you do together with the client. And then speaking to other buildings nearby, presumably. Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's part of a community of buildings that make a city. You can have a dialogue between buildings. different eras, like an asynchronous collaboration, if you will. Which you can do in Chicago very well, actually, in the New York, too.

When you're thinking about this sort of making it interesting, does that put you out on an edge? Because I think you're known for interesting buildings, right? Presumably. I know when I see your buildings, for example. Even if they're not the same, they're similar. Does that make sense? Right. There's a sensibility to them.

How would you describe your sensibility? Because it's not whimsical. There's a lot of architects who are whimsical. Not whimsical. I don't even like that word at all. I don't either. Good. No, it's like trying to find the poetry in the everyday things that you have to make.

And so we've never had really big budgets on our projects ever. I mean, I started out with community centers and not-for-profits all over Chicago, we're building community centers. and there's never much access budget. So then you have to try to find out how can you make something special, customize it for them, and make a discovery. I love discovering things like it could be a discovery in form or it could be a discovery in like what a material is capable of. And that's how I get adrenaline rush. We'll be back in a minute.

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please sit and enjoy. Please sit and stretch. Steep. Flip. Or that. And enjoy. Via rail, love the way. Let's then focus on architecture community and relationships.

A 23 U.S. Surgeon General report found that even before the pandemic, about half of U.S. adults reported experience in measurable levels of loneliness. And there's a link between increased isolation and decline of so-called third space. or informal public places to socialize. Now, you've designed community centers, museums, university buildings, and other places for people to gather. And Studio Gang has developed a set of design strategies for communities to use reimagining their civic comments.

Talk about these strategies and the idea of community. It's something I talk about a lot, especially because I cover technology and what it does to us because technology is not a third space. It just isn't. No, I know. There's nothing like getting together in a physical space. space with others. And so the architecture can set up a way for people to connect with each other in a comfortable

way so that it's not awkward. And it's like about setting up spaces that encourage behaviors that are community-oriented. And there's two ways of thinking about community. One is like how you design it so that it encourages that, so like the physical space. But before that, it's like asking the community what they want. I think that's really important. And so engaging with people. That's not something you can do through technology, really.

I mean, you need to talk to people, hear what they care about, and especially for public space, so that it can inform the response and to, and also to make it so that people are part of that process of a democracy. Which people don't. I just came out recently out of Moynihan Station, which is beautiful in its own way, but I keep thinking they hate people. Whoever design this hates people. Why? Because you can't gather anywhere.

It's quite beautiful, but it's not, I don't know, it's not a public space. I'm not sure why it's not, even though it's a train station. It just might be. It feels quiet in there. Yeah. I don't know. It doesn't feel, like, you can't sit and there's reasons for that and everything else. But what is the strategy for?

a good community space, because this is one of the things that is affecting our health, is affecting our mental issues around people. And I think the comedy of people around our country, we don't have these public spaces as much as we used to. Yeah, I think my favorite example of work that we've done recently is in Memphis, where we did a riverfront plan for them as being on the Mississippi, the Memphisans, they were using it more like a loading zone, not a gathering space and focused more on the streetscape, but they want to kind of reorient to the river. And we did a park called Tom Lee Park. And to, like, how do you start, right? It's like, we want to talk to a lot of different groups. What do you want to see in Tomley Park?

We had this youth design leadership group that was high school students that worked with us for a while, imagining what they would see. And what was really interesting is what we heard over and over was people wanted just everyday things in this park like bathrooms and concession stands, something to keep out of the rain's shade was a big thing. And so what we tried to do there

is just elevate those things being in this very prominent riverfront. But using very, like the programs people gave us and injecting them into this landscape and park. And it's amazing how well it works. It's just because I think because they feel it's theirs and it is. And it's just a beautiful design that brings people closer to the water. We did this one really interesting thing. We have this big canopy there and it's called the sunset canopy. And the structure is, it looks like cranes that they used to use along the river. So it's kind of inspired by the

working waterfront. So the shade is created. It's very flexible underneath. You can play basketball. You have dance. You can yoga, all those things. And then there's these swings that are hanging from the structure and they're very wide and long. So they're big enough for people to sit on that do not know each other on the same swing. And it's amazing to see them start to talk to each other. They're just doing something and they're looking at the river and they are inspired to communicate that experience with each other. And that is, there's something in that. There's a key to what we need, I think, as community to connect that architecture is able to bring out and experience is able to bring out. Need something a little distracting, not so that you don't just look at your phone, you know.

Right. Right. which is what people do, right, when they're in these spaces. So you've said that public architecture is not as successful if it comes from the top-down, but an architect is in the position of making these top-down decisions that shape the public's environment. Now, you teach at the Harvard Graduate School of Design. How do you get your students to approach their work with humility and get away from the top-down and sort of architect-as-God approach?

Because you're talking about actually asking people what they want. Yes. Sometimes that's good, and sometimes the architecture. architect does have better ideas, for example. Well, I don't think that asking people what they want precludes your design talents. It just engages with people, and they're not telling you to draw the line here or there. Right. You know, they're just saying what they want.

So it's a great question, though, because we have to learn our trade or our skills. And so when you're in school, it's really like you're doing it from, you don't have a real client. don't have a real community. So what I've tried with the students this semester was we use technology, we tried to find profiles of people who might be candidates for living in an affordable housing, which they're designing for New York City, for Queens. And the students found profiles of people who were very much oversharing online, but we're talking about their apartments. We're focusing on artistic people. How do they live now? What do they say they want? want because without the benefit of going out and interviewing people, they were able to find a lot of

information about, at least what people put online, about what they are missing, what they want, what they wish they could have, how they live their life every day, if they're an artist, where they put their materials, what they have to do. So that was how I was working with students to try to understand people that were designing for. And does that still exist, this architect as God approach, to much of architecture? Oh, yes. But I think there could be a model. There's an architect as God, but there's also the owner that could be the God figure. So, yeah, it exists. And of course, there's occasions where you need something monumental and you need something that has symbolic meaning. I mean, that it definitely exists in our society.

And if you do a competition, sometimes we win work through our competition. That is also another way where it's not so much the influence of the people around you because people running the competition just want to put this design against this design against this design. Right. And so that's where you can maybe use more of your voice. I still tried to find out more about the place that I'm working in if I'm doing a competition, but you still, you would be putting forward more of your artistic vision than you would if you were doing a community project where you're engaging with the community all the

within, which you have much experience in. So every episode we get an expert to send us a question. Let's listen to yours. Hi, Jeannie. This is Justin Davidson. I'm the architecture critic at New York Magazine and Curbed, and I have a question for you. yours is one of the very few firms that is based out of town but does a lot of work in New York. You've covered a lot of bases.

You've done an office building, a luxury high rise, a fire station, a parks department recreation center. Now you're working on a medical building. There are a lot of firms who want to make their mark in New York, but they find it a really difficult place to do their work. best work. There are so many financial and political and legal restrictions. So my question is, has studio gang cracked the code of New York? And are we getting your best work? Wow. He's great. Yeah, he is. A great journalist that I really respect. The question of the best work, I think it's, I always feel like I'm doing my best work and we're doing our best work, the constraints can narrow down what that means. But I don't feel like that is hurting the

quality. I feel like it's creating a city, New York, that has a special character because of those constraints and because of the process. New York is one of the few cities where there's a community board and every single neighborhood there's a review. So it's very democratic. in that sense. People get to voice their concerns. Maybe that can, you know, slow you down, but it's a great process. I really enjoy that. I enjoy that New Yorkers are engaged with what's going on in their community. So to Justin's point, I think if there's a code to be cracked, it's like working within the constraints and trying to find what that potential it brings out, I guess, the code to be cracked.

We'll be back in a minute. Dear Canadian exporters, our ambitions, our ideas, and our potential were never meant to be boxed in. Nothing can contain us. With the support of Export Development Canada's market insights and financial solutions, you can turn obstacles into opportunities, discover new markets, and keep our nation front and center on the global stage. The world needs more Canada. Together, let's give it to them. Visit edc.ca to learn more. I'm Maria Sharpova and I'm hosting a new podcast called Pretty Tough.

Every week, I'm sitting down with trailblazing women at the top of their game to discuss ambition, work ethic, and the ups and downs that come on the path to achieving greatness. We'll dive into their stories and get valuable insights from top executives, actors, entrepreneurs, and other individuals who have inspired me so much in my own journey. Follow Pretty Tough wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a Sted Hearnden, and this is America actually. We're all talking to each other to see what did we do wrong? What did we not see?

I'm in Washington, D.C. this week to interview Ruben Gallego. He's a Democratic senator from Arizona, and he's been thinking openly about running for higher office. But he's recently run into some hot water because of his connection to Congressman Eric Swalwell. I have to learn from this, and I will learn from this. But for me, it's not a 2028. question. It's about what it means to be a better first boss in my office and also a better

senator to my constituents. This week on America, actually, we asked Gallego about predatory behavior in Washington. His plans for immigration reform and more. So let's pivot to another central part of your design philosophy, environmental

sustainability, and climate change. According to the world, Green Building Council the buildings account for 39% of global energy-related carbon emissions and 11% comes from materials and construction. The American Institute of Architects has set a goal to reach net zero emissions by 2030, but realistically, that's probably not going to happen. Talk about the barriers to hitting these net zero goals or reducing carbon emissions in buildings more broadly.

And how much you think about it as you're building? No, we think about it a lot, and it's the most important challenge that we have. As an industry, I would say, more than, than any other. But, okay, so we have to think about our carbon emissions earlier. It was all about how is the operational energy of a building, like how much heating, air conditioning. But now it's, you know, we need to cut it faster.

So that means we have to cut it out of our materials, the embodied carbon of the buildings. So how do you get the materials? What are they made of? How much energy is it take to get it to the site? So there's just a lot of challenges and we need to address all of them. I mean, one of the easiest first things that everybody has to do is get into an electrical, get off fossil fuels 100% off so that you can start to supplement the renewable energies in there. But for the carbon, a lot of things that we're looking at are the bio-based materials.

So wood and things that are naturally produced. and there's a lot of new products that are made with wood. If you look around Chicago, we have all these old loft buildings. Same in San Francisco. There are maybe some still left, where the columns are like the whole tree, basically. Now we can make a column like that out of smaller, thinner strips laminated together. So they're engineered products that do the same, and they take advantage of the qualities of wood.

And so we're using a lot of, like in San Francisco, we design the California College of the Arts in timber. And the UC, Santa Cruz, Cresque College, dorms, residential hall, and academic buildings. Really great. Lots of different forms, beautiful buildings made with timber. You know, it's great. So, bio-baves materials, reuse of buildings and reinvention of buildings. Because the most carbon you can save is if you kind of reuse them. Not just reuse, but even increase their capacity.

It's essentially upcycling. So your latest book, The Art of Architectural Grafting, shows how to build sustainably by reusing and upcycling existing buildings. And explain what you mean about architectural grafting, what it means in practice. I'm thinking the house I'm sitting in here is from 1894, maybe. I kept all the redwood. It's built of original redwood framing.

Beautiful. Like ancient redwood framing. And what I did is I kept it as much as I could. And then the stuff we had to take out, I gave it to a furniture maker who then made it into pieces of furniture. And it's perfect. That's upcycling. But what was interesting about it was, you know, it was a virgin redwood forest, which they used to grab off in Marin and bring down here because it was considered junk wood, I suppose. And now, of course, it's highly valued.

Talk a little bit about what you mean by architectural grafting. Like graft in plants is like when you take a rootstock that's maybe a good old rootstock of a fruit tree or vines a lot of times in agriculture and then add a new plant, a cyan of a new plant that you want the qualities of like tastier fruit or more beautiful flowers or whatever. So this is like an ancient craft in horticulture and agriculture that goes way, way back. And the reason I was attracted to that is that it could be a metaphor, but it's like a place where humans and nature, humans are nature, but work together to get something. It's, I don't think there's really any just untouched raw nature anymore. I mean, we are part of it. And we've always been here for a long time. So I love this craft of crafting.

So with architecture, maybe the same thing. We could take the rootstock, an existing building, and give it new life. And that's the most important thing, life. Give it new life, let it, because if you only preserve something, it might not live. It might not have enough functionality in our day and in our current contemporary life to make it work. So it's really about bringing this new quality to it. But you can't just graft anything to anything like in nature also. You can't just, you know.

It doesn't work. No. There has to be some commonality, some way that it can be combined. So I was trying to, in the book, trying to come up with some basic rules, let's say, to be debated. But I was just tired of talking about reuse and adaptive reuse. and all these words that are just lost their meaning or they're not inspiring and trying to open it up more for architects so that we could develop more precise language around what it is,

what you do when you add two things together. Right. Where did it really work from your perspective? What graft have you done that you think has been particularly effective? I think all of them have worked that I've seen of ours. So because we're really being very careful attention to it. So making sure that the flow, that there's a redundancy in the connections, not just one little straw, you know, connecting that it really needs to have the flow

for the movement and the functionality to work robustly connected on the interior. And then architecturally style-wise, like what is the thing that you have in common? Like some people look at the American Museum of National History and say, oh, it looks so different than right's next to it. But remember, this is a campus of 25 buildings. Many of these buildings are very curvacious with turrets and all kinds of things. So we're kind of like riffing on that, but also being true to the construction type that we're doing. And we used a similar granite on the outside as on the opposite side of the building on the Central Park West side. there's like a tie there. So it's about, you know, this asynchronous collaboration with the previous

architects and the previous architecture to make sure that there's something that is tying them together. Bringing them together because you can graph badly, that's for sure. Yes, and that won't work. It doesn't work. In 2018, you taught a course at the Harvard Graduate School of Design called After the Storm Restoring an Island ecosystem following the hurricanes, Irma and Maria. Talk about lessons from those disasters, should architects and communities approach rebuilding after fires and floods in this era of worsening natural disasters? This is so important. That was one of the first studios I taught on that subject. And I took students down and we went and did some recovery work, which was less about building and more about just cleaning up. Sure.

But it was, the students told me later, like, this was one of the most important things they'd ever done. They've never been asked to do that before, and they saw the devastation of the power of these storms and what it can do to ruin. It ruins people's homes and their lives. And so that was really like to awaken the students about what these storms can do. But then the project was to propose something for the island that would help them be more self-sustaining. I don't know if you know about some of these islands. that they don't even have their own food source,

everything has to be shipped in. And so we worked with this group called We Grow Food, and we designed for them. They had had like an indigenous market that they grew their own food and had their own market going. These are people that were living on the island and the west end of St. Thomas.

So we actually met with them and found out what they needed to continue and to make their operation flourish and be more resilient in the future. So that was the project. But what I realized I think is that, and now we are getting into this because everyone is experiencing storms, fires, different disasters because of climate change. So architects might need to shift a bit and start working more with communities to help them rebuild in a more resilient way, to help them plan. We're working now with a community in North Carolina that was affected by Helen. And we're working with other architects and people who are donating time to help them make a plan

and envision what they want in the future. And that will help them to go after some grants and help to get things back on track. So I think it's a skill that future architects are. really going to need to lean into. Well, except right now the Trump administration has repealed scientific finding the climate change in dangers human health and environment. It's been called the most far-reaching rollback of U.S. climate policy today. President Trump also called climate change a hoax. It has the policy shift or rhetorical impact on your work or American architecture more broadly? He's rolled back a lot of things. But has it really affected what you're talking about, the long-term

consequences on sustainability in the green building movement? which had a lot of forward momentum. These are serious rollbacks. But I think what I've found is that most people I think it's obvious that there's climate change going on and including people from all, my clients, but all reaches of the American public, I would say. And they need some assistance to help envision.

It comes from them, But the skill I'm talking about for the architects is like being able to assemble people, gather, draw, you know, charrette is what we call it, which is like getting together in a room and getting people to participate and to help them create a vision and what does it look like. And that's what I think we will need to do more and more for this type of disaster. But you're right that these rollbacks are not helping at all. And then we need to. States are taking action on their own. Of course, individuals are taking action. But, you know, it really should be something that we should be out in front of.

And we should be leading, like, renewables, energy. Has that pushed back? You know, for example, DEI stuff has been gone. They're gone now. All these policies. Has that happened in the architecture profession around these sustainable buildings or green buildings? Have you noticed that?

Any incentives that were federal are gone. And so that is impacting because not everyone can afford it to start out. So, yeah, it's devastating in that sense. So what do you do then if you want to continue to keep? Because this is a bearing wall of the stuff you're doing, for example. Well, I feel very grateful and privileged to be able. to now work with people who are like-minded and also like pushing the boundaries of this. So, for example, with Harvard University, we designed the first mass timber building on the campus.

It's called the tree house, and it's a gathering place. It's a David Rubenstein treehouse. Yeah. And it's... David, I know David, and he shows pictures of it all the time, but go ahead. Yeah, and it's very exciting because it's like a glimpse into the future of what campus architecture can be. And so these things are still happening. And it's just the ones that are hurt the most are the ones that aren't getting the help to get to those resilient technologies and sustainable technologies because they don't have the funding. Right. Do you imagine it's going to shift back? It has to. It has to. Because we're not going to just keep investing in buildings that then are outdated and we need to get, plus if we want to regenerate our economy,

we need to be producing things, yes, like solar panels and other inventions that Americans can come up with in this space, also within the material space for what we use to build architecture. We would love to use more timber products. And, you know, I have a dream that, you know, You know, the Midwest, which has a lot of industrial pollution from the previous era, could regenerate and create timber lands that help to also clean the phytoremediate the lands, but also start to become a new industry for timber, for construction, for. Yeah, for building in a place where we need to make buildings. so near cities.

We have two big forest areas in the U.S., southeast and the northwest. And the whole Midwest is, there's a lot of vacant land that needs remediation. So it could be like new timber industries. They're going to put a data center there, just so you know. And then they're going to use us to be the fuel for the data center.

I don't know if you saw those movies. This past fall Trump issued an executive order called Making Federal Architectural Beautiful again. He demolished the East Wing without permission to make room for a ballroom that he wants to build in a 250-foot arch in Virginia. How are architects looking at what's happening here? And obviously it got more energy this week around the shooting at the Hilton. If you were on a panel evaluating designs for the building in the arch, what questions would

you be asking? And the people suing to stop it are not stopping their suites. even though they've been pressed by Trump and others to do so. Well, I mean, in some sense, like, in one sense, that adding on to the White House is kind of a distraction because it's not like the most important thing going on right now. But we do have a democracy, and we have public buildings that are supposed to last a long time,

and that's why there are, we have created, we the people have created ways to get input, public input and urban planning input and, you know, to preserve the beauty of and the symbolic nature of Washington, D.C. There's certain sight lines that were created initially. So I think to respect that is respect the country and to respect the city and to keep it beautiful. Yeah, that's why we have the rules. And that's why we have a lot of input. It's not only architecture input. You know, there's urban planning, there's public input that goes into the process of making public buildings. And I think that's, we talked about New York and how it can slow thing down. Yes,

it does slow it down a bit because you need to be able to take all these, and that's how you get better buildings. You get better buildings when you have, you get the shades that you wouldn't think of as one person. You can't think of all the negative things that could happen. Sure, or even all the positive things. So that's why it's important to have. What would you, what were the questions you'd be asking for what's happening at both places there? It's taking up enormous amount of attention. At least he's making it a big deal for sure.

Well, I think there was a fine arts commission that would be asking these questions. He fired them all. Yes. But I'm not that up on what it would be, but some of the things I know about are just sightlines and, you know, scale and with respect to the grounds. And I think it's admirable in a certain way that there's an initiative taken to build onto the White House because it's not like it's some perfect thing that was preserved from day one. So I kind of appreciate that. and I think it could use ballroom. So I'm not totally against it.

I just, I think the process is important to get the best result. What would you put there? What would your ballroom look like? Oh, oh, oh. I would never be picked for that project. I know. I think it probably needs to be, you know, something that, again, like grafting. It can.

That's a real grafting project, isn't it? It is a grafting. But that one is where the graph is. like so heavy that it breaks off of the root stock. Yeah, yeah, the graft is heavy. That's a nice way of putting it. Graph is very heavy. It's like very large and very gold graft.

It might break off. What happens then if they build something like that? What can be done? Nothing, I guess. I don't think so. I mean, I don't think it would be, from the environment standpoint, it wouldn't be worth tearing it back down or, you know, so I think it's going to be there.

So maybe it has to be balanced by something else. Maybe you just have to make the whole thing bigger. Yeah. Oh, no. Oh, no. No, no. Do you like the arch? Are you an arch person?

One of my offices is in Paris. So I really like the arch that is there. Yeah. And I like that Paris has a very strong urban plan that gives you axes to landmarks. But the landmarks are not just about, like, you know, individuals. There's things of different eras. But, no, I mean, I still haven't quite gotten my head around what this arch is. It's just big.

I don't think there's any reason for it. There's no victory. No. And most of the time, arches were made for victories. Does Trump have an effect on arc? or not, or just, I mean, what he's doing with gold and everything else. He made a patio, seems like a Mara Lago patio at the White House. Does he have an impact on architecture in general?

No. I mean, in that he was a developer, he also built large buildings that do impact our cities. And so in that sense, yes, but I think, like, in terms of influencing trends, no. No, yeah. I still can't stand the one in Chicago. It makes me upset every time I see it. Largely because the font, I don't like the font on that building, on the Trump building there. I think the curning is wrong, too.

It's all wrong. I'm a big font person. Yeah, like there's too wide of space between two of the letters. That's correct. It's really irritating. So my very last question, if you had to push someone to look at a piece of design you think has been inspirational to you or right now in the world, Is there one thing that you just love to look at? The way I like to look at your Aqua Tower.

I don't know why I just do. I just like to look at it. Oh, you mean like a contemporary thing? Anything. I mean, I see things every day that I think are interesting. I guess I'm most interested right now in reinventing vernacular ways of building somehow. So looking to old ways of building and trying to update them into the 21st century. Because a lot of times some older ways of buildings that were vernacular,

in other words, people did it on their own. Without architects, there's knowledge in those things. Like building with earth or rammed earth or building with cordwood masonry. These are kind of things I am really fascinated by. And so I'm always trying to, whenever I go somewhere, look at what was built there originally just with what was around. What can you build with what's nearby and what's available? Of course, you can't build tall buildings with those means.

But I always learn just from, I really am interested in those, I guess it's low-tech stuff. But of course, those low-tech things can be upgraded too. And we can reuse what's smart about them. Yeah, that's a great idea, actually. Anyway, Jeannie, thank you so much. You're a wonderful inspiration to me and many others more than you realize, I think. Thank you. I know you're not supposed to know who the architects are.

Sometimes you do, but your buildings are just beautiful. I don't know. There's something about them. Thank you so much. It's been a pleasure. One thing before we go, want career advice from Kara Swisher, now is your chance. We're doing a special episode all about it, and I want your questions. Send us a selfie video with your question to on at voxmedia.com.

and you might be featured. Can't wait to see what you've got. Today's show was produced by Christian Castro Roussel, Michelle Eloy, Catherine Millsop, Megan Bernie, and Kaelin Lynch. Nishot Kerwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Special thanks to Bradley Sylvester, Sam Lee, and Ruella Roof. Our engineers are Fernando Aruta and Rick Kwan, and our theme music is by Tracademics. If you're already following the show, you're getting the Aqua Tower Penthouse. No, that would be me. If not, there was a sale on gold paint, and you're getting a Mar-a-Lago-inspired home makeover.

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