On with Kara Swisher - How Twitter Took Alex Edelman to IRL White Supremacists

Episode Date: September 14, 2023

A Jewish comedian walks into an apartment in Queens to meet a group of white supremacists … This isn’t the setup to a bad joke — it’s the inciting incident in Alex Edelman’s hit one-man show, “Just For Us,” which recently wrapped a nine-week run on Broadway.  We talk to Edelman about the value of entering rooms with people you vehemently disagree with, Elon Musk’s threat to sue the ADL, and whether there should be any uncrossable lines in comedy. Questions or comments? Email us at [e-mail] or find us on social media. We’re on Instagram/Threads as @karaswisher and @nayeemaraza  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Get started at HubSpot.com slash marketers. Do you feel like your leads never lead anywhere? And you're making content that no one sees and it takes forever to build a campaign? Well, that's why we built HubSpot. It's an AI-powered customer platform that builds campaigns for you, tells you which leads are worth knowing, and makes writing blogs, creating videos, and posting

on social a breeze. So now, it's easier than ever to be a marketer. Get started at HubSpot.com slash marketers. Hi, everyone. From New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network, this is TwitterX, It's on! But Kara, are you saying that the Anti-Defamation League is not responsible for the dramatic drop in Twitter's value? I am certain of that. I think it's ridiculous. Are you insinuating it would be a frivolous lawsuit? I'm insinuating that. For people to understand, Elon Musk threatened to sue the Anti-Defamation League because he believes they and certain other groups are responsible for the decline in advertising because they pressured advertisers and forced them not to buy on the system. Not because he cut trust and safety, not because advertisers find themselves

next to white supremacist organizations, not because the ads just suck. It's because of the ADL, which is just ridiculous. It's nonsense. The value of Twitter has dropped some estimate by as much as two thirds since Elon bought it

for an overmarked 44 billion. You know, it's again, as I stress over and over again, it's a troubled platform, it's a troubled business. It would be hard for anyone, but someone to behave the way he's done has created a real chaos that advertisers, I talked to dozens of advertisers, they don't never mention the ADL, they always mention Elon every time. He often moves on from something, but this he has not moved on from. He's incessantly tweeting about it while Twitter is blogging that they are not support hate and anti-Semitism on the platform. He is boosting all kinds of conspiracies about the ADL. He is. Unfortunately, the purported CEO, Linda Iaccarino,

is in the worst position. She has to put out these toothless statements. And to push back on that with advertisers, I'm sure she's got her hands full. It's the job she wanted. You know, calling him anti-Semitic is not the point. I have no idea. I've never heard him say something like that to me or anything like that. People always say that. But he certainly is dog-whistling everywhere around anti-Semitism. So something's happening here that I don't want to put a label on necessarily, but it's promoting really vile forms of speech. We'll get a little bit more into Elon Psyche on Monday's episode with Walter Isaacson, I cannot wait. And you discussed this threat of a lawsuit with Jonathan Greenblatt, the chairman of the ADL on Pivot last week. But today we'll be able to ask comedian Alex

Edelman about it. He's our guest today. He's coming off a Broadway run for Just For Us, his hit one-man show, which is closed on Broadway. And he also recently tweeted that he would foot the bill for the ADL if they lost the lawsuit. I'm not sure he can afford that. No, I don't think he can. I think he was just being, Alex, how rich are you? I don't think he is. But who knows if it'll ever show up. It would cost the ADL enormous amounts of money. Who knows? I doubt he'd never win this lawsuit.

It's just ridiculous. By the way, free speech, they're allowed to tell advertisers not to advertise on the platform. It doesn't mean they have the power to do so or that advertisers use that as their only decision making. Of course, yeah. And we'll ask Alex Edelman about free speech as well because as a comedian, it's a topic he thinks about a lot. I met Edelman a few months ago at one of these schmancy New York dinner parties, but I just really liked him and went to the opening night of his show. And as soon as it opened, I'm like, oh, Kara's going to love this. Have to see him. Because the show is brilliant.

And it starts with a Twitter list of all things, which brings Alex, a Jewish comedian, a Twitter list of all things, which brings Alex, a Jewish comedian, into a room with a bunch of white supremacists voluntarily. I went to see the show again with you. What did you think? I thought it was fantastic. I thought it was really smart. I like one-man shows, one-woman shows. I see them all the time, whether it was Spalding Gray, Carrie Fisher, Mike Birbiglia, obviously. But it's, you know, and my favorite, Anna Deavere Smith. So I love one-person shows. And I really like this one.

I thought it was a beautiful set piece. I think he had a really organized story. They're almost like essays, right? They're really long essays that tell a story and make a point, usually make a point. And I felt like this was great. And it was sort of on point for a lot of things I think about, which is, you know, not just free speech, but the deleterious effects of Twitter, people's mindsets, how they get to be as radicalized as they are, and also existing biases that have existed since the beginning of time. And I thought it was a funny setup for him to create this list of white supremacists and then go to a meeting that they had organized on the list.

It's such a feat to kind of over 90 minutes wind a story and take creative eddies and come back and continue a through line. And I think he did a fantastic job of that. I have to say he was not happy with me for having you in the front row. I saw him right after the show and he's like, you put Kara Swisher in my front row, Naima.

I said, I didn't put her anywhere. She bought her own tickets. Well, that's the only seat. I bought the seats. I bought those seats. And that was the only place I could sit. So I went to whatever ticket, Broadway tickets, and that's where they were. So I sat there.

I actually enjoyed it. I hadn't been in a front seat in a long, long time. Looking up at him. Looking up at him. And it was great. And he didn't spit too much. That's the key part. He wasn't a spitter, as many people are.

I went to see Chicago once, and I was in the front row. I always bought tickets at the key part. He wasn't a spitter, as many people are. That's the important part. I went to see Chicago once, and I was in the front row. I always bought tickets at the last minute. It was often in the very front row. Yes. Even though you think those are really expensive, they're not. They can be the cheapest. And in this case, we're the only ones left. And the cast spit at me all night.

It was really sad. Alex, I don't mind only spitting at you, asking deep questions about to what our empathies extend. And it was funny. It was funny. You know, a Jew going to a white supremacist meeting. Ah. written up was, is this existing in an echo chamber or is this very important message he's sharing, which is, I think, about thinking about where our boundaries are, where our empathies lie, what we consider our realities. Is that reaching anyone who isn't already part of this kind of liberal upper crust choir? And I think that's a big question. Well, let's ask him about that.

Broadway is like that, but we'll see what he thinks. We'll see what he thinks. All right, let's take a quick break and we'll be back with the interview. Fox Creative. This is advertiser content from Zelle. When you picture an online scammer, what do you see? For the longest time, we have these images of somebody sitting crouched over their computer with a hoodie on, just kind of typing away in the middle of the night. And honestly, that's not what it is anymore.

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So, talk about the premise of your show for listeners who haven't been able to see it. Your story starts in a place that isn't usually known for creating anything productive on Twitter, specifically Twitter lists, which you call an obscure function of a dying platform. Explain the premise of the show. Well, the premise of the show is I put out something a couple years ago, and I got a little bit of anti-Semitic feedback for it. And I sort of went down the rabbit hole a little bit of these sort of like white nationalist corner of Twitter and started making a list of white nationalists and make a long story. To make an hour and 20 minute story short, I wound up at this meeting of white nationalists in Queens. And that's what the show is about.

Okay. So you made a list because you were fascinated by them or what? You know, I can't remember if I was just sort of trolling, but what I think I was doing was I was interested in this corner of Twitter that I would never go to, but is, and obviously I won't say how to find it on here because I think some of that underbelly of Twitter has become more of the actual belly of Twitter. No, it's the main stage of Twitter right now. Yes.

I used to be shocked at how easy it was to find and And now you don't even need to find it. But I was interested in sort of collating maybe a place that I could go, like a digital terrarium of lunatics. And then I became sort of fascinated by the cross-section of people who are anti-Semitic, because sometimes you log on and you'd see different types of anti-Semites on there. But the funny thing is, I think I checked it for, I started building that list in 2016, 2017, 2018. And then around the beginning of 2019, I kind of lost the appetite to look at it anymore. You called it, what was the name of the list that you created? Jewish National Fund Contributors.

Did they know they were on it? Oh, you bet. You bet. They get a little notification saying, Alex Edelman has added you to the list of Jewish National Fund contributors. It's a lot of fun, actually. And what was their reaction to that? I mean, some people would block me, which does actually get you off the list, by the way.

But, you know, someone said to me, you know, I'm not anti-Semitic. I just don't like Jews very much. And I was like, okay, well, I'd be happy to split that hair with you if you really want to. And you'd go, you know, there are people, by and large, there are people behind these keyboards. Like, I think about that a lot. Yeah.

Which is that some of these people, you know, they walk the streets beside us. And instead of being, you know, horrified by that and terrified by that, I am interested in the fact that there is this element of the population that has this extremely unreasonable and socially unacceptable opinion. Right. So you got a tweet about an opportunity to go to a meeting, and I would have never met them in person.

I would have been nervous. I mean, it never occurred to me not to go. Because? I never thought I'd get hurt. And I know that sounds silly because someone said it, because I get asked a lot if I'd go back. And I think I kind of would. I think I'm in the market still for... And I'm not an adrenaline junkie or like a gonzo person even. I'm just like, maybe this is a bit of white privilege. That's okay to say, but like, I truly believe that I can talk to anybody. Right, right. So, but set the scene, you go into this apartment and you start to crave the approval of these people. You're sort of starting to get into the meeting to see how far you can push it, even though these people hate the idea of you.

Why was that? Well, I think it's hard to hate people up close. And this is an apartment, just for people to understand. You're in a relatively small apartment. I thought it was pretty sizable for a New York City apartment. But yes, it was an apartment. You were admiring the size. I used to say in the show, again, can't remember if I still say it, but I used to say it's pretty spacious for a New York apartment, actually.

Pretty spacious living room for a New York City apartment. And I don't know if I want their approval, but I am certainly keen to stay in the pocket of the conversation. I think lots of us have had that. You know, like, a lot of people think the show is about anti-Semitism. And obviously it is, right? There is obviously. But to me, and I hate to do this because I think it's a little high-minded, I think the show is more broadly about assimilation. The show is more broadly about

the type of things about ourselves that are willing to sublimate in order to stay in various rooms and conversations. And I think that that has resonated with people who aren't just Jewish. I think that's one of the reasons that the show has found an audience. Because I think lots of people, be it their identity or their political opinions or their personality, they wonder about the things that they've had to sublimate in order to be in the conversation and someone and at some point by the way i confirmed that i'm jewish in the in the room and people sometimes ask why i didn't lie about it yeah why didn't you lie i thought that during the show i thought i had done enough yeah yeah you know i thought i was like well you know i'm not a stranger to them anymore because you didn't go in there yelling at them or no i i am a talker but but I also took a measure of the room before I got into the conversation. I sat there for a, for me, because I am a talker, a remarkable amount of time being quiet, listening before I weighed in. if i've ever mentioned this in the show but i was struck by how many topics i have heard discussed

and even agreed with in polite company and you know for the sake of not getting um fly specced for a thing like what like what for example you know there was a discussion of uh there's a discussion like whether they like like whether they like Succession, it wasn't on at the time, but something like that. No, no, no, no, no. But Modern Family, no, no, I'm just kidding. But I think, I think

there was a discussion of like, I guess to broadly term it, whether or not people in, people want white men anymore in different areas, which by the way, is a topic that I've heard discussed in murmured tones in very liberal spaces as well. And so there's a lot of these

conversations that are, or conversations about whether or not there is a powerful few that control our elections or something like that that's a i point that out in the show like that's actually a liberal you know we'd like to see meaningful campaign finance reform in the united states like c-citizens united overturned so we may disagree on who the who's in the cabal but there is a discussion of of what exactly that cabal is no no conspiratorial thinking is everywhere. We just talked to Naomi Klein about this for book Doppelganger. So it is everywhere.

But you talk about this idea of speaking to people who disagree with you. You talk about this a lot. You seek out these conversations. I knew the same. What's the driver for you when you do this? I think removing yourself from your natural habitat allows you to see the sort of the outlines of yourself more clearly, right?

Like I think sort of, also, I was raised in a Talmudic environment. I was raised in an environment where I'm, you know, where the idea that you're wrong is okay. Or the idea that, you know, the truth lies somewhere between two binaries is the most interesting one. And I actually feel that about most things. I actually feel that the truth is always somewhere between two poles. There are very few- Absolutely. There are very few instances. And instead of being a person who's constantly bemoaning the lack of nuance in our discourse, even though I do bemoan the lack of nuance in our discourse,

um, I think getting at a, I think you lose nothing from talking to people. Right. So, but with the people in this room, back to this room, who didn't want to spend time with you, you get called out and you thought you'd done enough to admit you were actually Jewish. And other thing you did was you felt safe in the room, something that might not have been the case for a woman or someone who didn't look white. I try to point that out in the show. I go, just, you know, the epitome of white privilege is a Jew walking into a meeting of white nationalists thinking, this will probably be fine. You know, like, things usually work out for me. I do also think that I'm very big.

I think another reason the show has resonated with folks is that the show seeks to have a conversation about whiteness and Judaism and assimilation while issuing a conversation about victimhood. Like, one of the things that I do. But you didn't want to get up and make a big speech about that. And I also didn't know. How dare you? And I also didn't want to make a show about someone who gets up and makes a big speech, especially like, truest, truest, truest sense should feel in that room. It's just, I think to get up and give a righteous speech about how I'm the aggrieved party, there's something very disingenuous about that. And I think there's a moment in the show where I've been asked to leave.

And, you know, I say I look very sad because clearly I'm the victim. And I think the performance of, I think for me personally, the idea that I have a right to be aggrieved given that they're so horrible and i'm such a good boy there's something really interesting to me there because i'm i am fascinated by the politics of victimhood like especially as it pertains to like college admissions like i feel like we're living in a time where people feel like the deck is stacked against them. And by the way, there is a part of me that wants to, at different points in my life, feel righteously offended. Right?

Like there is a point in my life where I've wanted to feel, like that's part of the reason I say in the show that I made the list. Because I want to be offended. I call it the grievance industrial complex for some. It's now pretty much on the right right now. It used to be the left. Now it's the right, which is very aggrieved by something or whatever. You have an empathy for these people in this room. I think you realize these white supremacists, which are terrifying to most people in general, and they're meant to try to terrify

people. That's their whole game, whether it used to be cloaks or tiki torches or whatever. You came to the conclusion that there's sad people with sad lives, and you have pity. Are they worth pity? Do we have to be empathetic? Because sometimes I'm like, you know what? No. I'm just, I don't care. They can die as far as I'm concerned. I mean, it's case by case. I think that, again, for me personally, a huge part of my life is my interior life. A huge part of my life is my identity and my community.

And I think our interior lives are not based entirely in grievance. And I think our interior lives are not based in the hatred of others. And our interior lives are not based in the hatred of others and our interior lives are not based in a frustration that we're not being heard. And I think that anyone whose life is like that, I think that's a real tremendous,

and again, I don't know that this is addressed in the show or if it is, it's probably not addressed enough. It's a terrible thing to not have an identity. or if it is, it's probably not addressed enough. But it's a terrible thing to not have an identity. It's a terrible thing to feel voiceless and to feel powerless. And like I say in the show very clearly, they are 1,000% wrong.

They do have a voice. They do have power. But to feel a certain way it's um well how much empathy does this group deserve i mean i would say you were kind to them probably very probably very little as a collective but as a person a person probably a lot but you know giving someone empathy doesn't mean not holding them accountable giving someone and showing someone respect also means expecting from them a certain level of humanity.

And so like, I think sometimes people mistake giving someone empathy for giving them a free pass. There should be no free passes. We'll be back in a minute. Thank you. million global monthly visitors, according to Indeed data, and a matching engine that helps you find quality candidates fast. Listeners of this show can get a $75 sponsored job credit to get your jobs more visibility at Indeed.com slash podcast. Just go to Indeed.com slash podcast right now and say you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need to hire?

You need Indeed. Support for this show comes from Grammarly. 88% of the work week is spent communicating, typing, talking, and going back and forth on topics until everyone is on the same page. It's time for a change. It's time for Grammarly. Grammarly's AI ensures your team gets their points across the first time, eliminating misunderstandings and streamlining collaboration. It goes beyond basic grammar to help tailor writing to specific audiences, whether that means adding an executive summary, fine-tuning tone, or cutting out jargon in just one click. Plus, it surfaces relevant information as employees type, so they don't waste time digging through documents.

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I think I have. I think I definitely change minds because I think the, not to spoil anything, I think the truth about Jews and whiteness is more complicated than either. So the induction of doubt in that conversation I saw reflected in the ways that we, in the conversations that I had afterwards. Like downtown at the Cherry Lane, a guy came out of the theater. He said, you know, I always thought Jews were white until I saw the show. And then a guy behind him was like, wait, you thought Jews were white? Because he very clearly says that Jews aren't, you know, like, the Jews aren't, like, it's a very, and I was like, you're both right. You're both right. The answer is that it's not a binary. A really close friend of mine who's a

speechwriter once said to me, I can tell you if you think Jews are white. Like, if you think being white is incredible, then Jews aren't white, if you think being white is incredible, then Jews aren't white. If you think being white is something to apologize for, then Jews are the whitest people who have ever lived. In fact, they are secretly white people, which is even worse, so they've opted into whiteness, which is, and so, like, it's become a very complicated thing. I actually had quite a few conservative audience members, and without ascribing anything to any group of people um orthodox jews came to see the show in huge numbers which is very gratifying because i was raised orthodox and it means a lot to me to have a a show where orthodox people come watch

um lots of orthodox jews are not as liberal as the rest of the audience. No, they're not. And so I'd see that sometimes reflected in the reaction. Like, you do a show hundreds of times. You learn to read the reaction of the crowd or individual audience members. So that was actually kind of gratifying to see that. Also, a conservative newspaper, I'm told, gave it a very nice review. And so lots of conservatives came to see the show. And, and so I had a really interesting, I would have really interesting conversations afterwards about,

about the show and about how I felt about Trump and how, and how also maybe why am, why aren't I not talking about antisemitism on the left? And my answer was the show is not about antisemitism. The show is about one person's experience on a experience on a winter night at the end of 2017. Yeah, that's your next show. Yeah, my next show is that. But you know, by the way, I think it would be a more interesting and, you know.

More controversial. I think it would absolutely be more controversial. Or Adam, my director, my closest friend before he passed away, before the show, which was a real, you know, tough thing. Yeah. Adam and I were working on a show about Israel and Palestine. And so if I do a show about Israel and Palestine, then that certainly will be more divisive. But yeah, I think I got, I think the audience that you described, Kara, is absolutely the, you know. On your side.

Yeah. I think very few people are challenging the show. I also had lots of conversations with the show is formed almost entirely through conversations with people through with conversations with Mike Birbiglia, who, who's one of the producers of the show through, especially, and most importantly, conversations with Adam brace conversations with my friends, like my friend Morgan, my friend Danny, my friend David, and even those famous people like Jerry Seinfeld offered notes, Billy Crystal offered notes, Steve Martin offered me a joke. So the show is formed by conversations. Let me get back to this idea of changing minds.

Let me read you the critique by my colleague Jackson McHenry at Vulture. He wrote the show ends on a quote, heroic gesture guaranteed to trigger huge applause. And he said it felt intentionally ambivalent, a nifty thorny trick, spending a show teaching an audience to be suspicious of easy comforts, and then leave them with one. Now, another thing he noted was to a much more extreme degree, he was also performing to ingratiate himself among the white nationalists. Talk a little bit, because no one's ever happy with anything. But did you take in some of these critiques and think, am I too nice? Am I too non-offensive? Can offending be a good thing? I mean, I would argue that the most important bit at the end of the show is about this.

It's about the presentations that we make to be palatable. And I think that, I didn't read that review, but I think that Jackson is actually quite like that. Like, that feels like a B plus grade in terms of one comment. I mean, look, I think the show reflects my suspicion with easy comforts and easy judgment. And I'd hope that the moments in the show where I write sort of turn that on myself is something that people really take in. And yeah, I do think that the... But also, by the way,

when I say conversations, Cara, with comedians, it's not just jokes from Billy Crystal and Mike Birbiglia. It is critiques from people who may take issues with different parts of the show. The shows that I create are forged partially in these furnaces of conversation and disagreement. So what was a critique you worked into the show?

You know, I underscored my white privilege in the show a bunch. And the jokes about my white privilege come in real estate in the show that I think is important. And also, by the way, I used to jokingly, in 2018, when I started writing the show, I jokingly referred to them as Nazis. And then, you know, smart people, I would have some conversation with smart people, and they went, it's worth clarifying that these people aren't Nazis, even if you're making jokes. So there is a joke in the show that frankly would be there, even if it didn't have a joke at the end of it. There's a clarifying point about the fact that being a Nazi is actually a very specific thing from a extremely specific moment in history. Like lots of like…

Yeah, people throw that word around quite a bit. I think we suffer from Nazi inflation in a huge way. It's like exclamation points. Like there are too many. I want to bring you into today. We're taping this interview just days after Elon Musk took to X, which was Twitter, to blame ADL, the Anti-Defamation League, for a 60% decline in the platform's revenue. What do you make of his public tirade here?

And even more concretely, what would you like to see, you know, having been on Twitter and using it for this list that you made and then to observe what was happening, what would you like to see them do to moderate anti-Semitic speech? Were you surprised by this?

Well, you know, I tend to this is a caveat, not a cop-out. I tend to stay out of contemporary politics because number one, I'm not an expert. And number two, I change my mind all the time. that is faced with the challenge of having a body speak for their interests. Sometimes I disagree with the way that body does. But to be a little unprofessional here, it's the stupidest thing in the world, this Elon Musk thing. I am full-throatedly, I think it's ridiculous. And I think the idea that the ADL, by highlighting the fact that there is anti-Semitism on Twitter and that the position of Elon Musk certainly hasn't been to crack down on it and make the situation better since he has joined it. The idea that that is somehow defamatory is gross. And also immature, by the way. Like there's no world in which, I don't think there's a world

in which Elon Musk has a legal case here. If he wins his judgment against the ADL for billions of dollars, I'll pay it. You said that, you tweeted that. You personally pay for it. I think it's absolutely, I think it's somewhere in the zip code of moronic. So, but do you think that Twitter or Elon

are in some part accountable for the rise of anti-Semitism and hate? I mean, the ADL has chronicled, as have many people, not just them. He's let a lot of anti-Semites back on. He let Kanye back onto the platform after he kicked him off. He insulted advertisers. And yet, it's the ADL that's the problem on Twitter, not the business of Twitter. I think it represents a... I'm very careful about not crying wolf. I'm very careful about not seeing swastikas in our crossword puzzles or anything like that.

I think those are silly things. But I think in this case, Twitter has to make a decision in terms of whether or not they're willing to give Elon the most benefit of the doubt you could possibly give him. If Elon truly is in pursuit of free speech, he is guilty of vagueness. He's guilty of intense vagueness in terms of how it's defined. vagueness in terms of how it's defined. I think in terms of what is hate speech, in terms of what is incitement, in terms of what is irresponsible rhetoric. And I would love to see Twitter do more too. It used to be, by the way, this list when I started cultivating it, every couple of weeks, a whole bunch of people would disappear from the list because Twitter mods had done the dirty work of combing through and blocking them. Cleaning it up. it every couple of weeks a whole bunch of people would disappear from the list because twitter

mods had done the dirty work of combing through and right blocking them cleaning it up i checked the list a couple of it doesn't happen as much anymore like again that's anecdotal i'm not saying it's representative maybe i'm wrong maybe i you know i'm not maybe i'm not checking platformed a lot of people it just feels and by and by the way, as a user, it's a less pleasant place to be. Right. No, I just had a back and forth with someone named Alex Berenson, who's sort of this odd.

Can anyone argue that, and like Alex, I'm aware of that. It's a less pleasant place to be used to be. No, they were talking about, I had turned off my comments after i started there in 2007 this is the first year i turned off comments because i don't like being called uh you know a see you next tuesday every five minutes oh my god you must just get you must just get i just and they're like mad i have my comments off i said i don't really feel like availing myself to your ridiculous trolling the user experience is so viscerally unpleasant now.

It just feels like the UX has spun out of control. Like, I don't see the people I follow anymore. I've lost all sense of who's verified in any real way. That's the point. That is actually the point. But let me ask you, though, is there some merit to this idea that our free speech is under threat? You've said you used to tell jokes you wouldn't tell anymore.

Fat jokes, for example. Talk about that, because a lot of people think the lines of comedy are too strict now. You know, I think I've said this before, too, but I kind of, like, by the way, yes, there are jokes that I have made in the past that I wouldn't make again. My own personal standards have shifted in ways that, you know, some are societal, some are, you know, just things, you know, I don't find funny anymore. I think now we're punching down given the way that like, comedy doesn't exist in a vacuum. Comedy exists in response to the world that, which is why, by the way, it's so hard for comedy to age well. It's like really difficult for comedy to age well. But alongside that, I think with new tensions, there are new tensions to play anyone says free speech is under threat for comedians, because I'm aware of countries where comedians are being arrested for the jokes that they made. There was just a Lebanese comedian, I think, arrested for a five-year-old joke.

And, you know, in China, China has been fining different comedians. And in Russia, some of my Russian comedy friends are, who have asked me not to say their names when i talk about this um their their lives are different now too and so the idea that free speech is under threat um i think we're certainly more interested in censure than we were you know say you know x number of years ago things are off limits because you've changed. You're saying you limit them. But an empirical question, do you think certain groups are too protected in comedy? I don't know.

I don't think so. I mean, my first thought is I don't think so. I also think, by the way, whenever people are offended by something, I usually think of it as somewhat of a craft failure. Like you actually can say anything, provided you show the work, provided you justify the... There are plenty of jokes that are politically incorrect that I think are... Just aren't funny.

Well, I think there are some that I think are very funny because they show... Because they're presented with a level of irony that shows the viewer and the listener that they're not seriously saying this. They're not taking it seriously. And some comics are better at that than others. So sometimes when comics are called out for a joke, I think, well, you haven't made the irony that you're hoping to convey very clear there. You're not, it's more of a craft film.

So you just sound offensive. You sound offensive. You sound lazy and not you sound like so interestingly dave chapelle had a controversial take on that in snl monologue in the aftermath of kanye's and kairi irving's racism what do you think of the craft of that do you recall what he said um i do and i did a podcast with jonathan greenblatt and nick cannon where we had this long discussion about it and And I said then, it was right afterwards, that I wasn't going to weigh in on it

because smarter people than me had differing opinions on it. And I still feel that way about that specific monologue, which is absolutely a cop-out because- Yeah, it is. That's right. It's literally- What did the smarter persons take? What was the-

I mean, some people were like, it's dangerous. It's a poison pill wrapped in sugar. It's a- And other people said he's just making comedy. I've had a conversation about it with- I've had conversations about it with other comedians. It's an evolving conversation. I think I feel differently about Dave Chappelle than I used to when I was a younger person. But

for me to say anything publicly about him is not worth the squeeze. Not worth the squeeze. Oh, you get the squeeze. You know, there's a lot of, I think there are sometimes, also, by the way, I'm very big on this. I will cop out of things that I don't feel secure, that I will oftentimes, you know, pass up the shot, which, by the way, I think is. Sure, you'll go into a white supremacist meeting, but you won't, you'll cop out on Dave Shipp. A thousand percent. Yeah, I'll give an opinion he just wasn't funny that's all i i judge it by funny and what i you know there was a

controversy over the netflix show and i was like okay you can make trans jokes sure but an hour and a half of them i guess not like it does it starts to get unfunny and then it's weird like i put in some more lesbian jokes if you need to you know what what I mean? Like, I was like, it's not funny after an hour and a half. It's funny for 10 minutes, that kind of thing. I, he only had one and it wasn't funny either. That one wasn't either.

It's so, it's so interesting because sometimes like I have, I have opinions about comedians, the specials, and someone will be like, it's the funniest thing I've ever seen. And I'm like, I do think that there's a responsibility not to,

not to, to Todd, to not to call back the Jackson McHenry review that I have not read. No, it's eating at you. It's eating at you. Now I'm going to read this review and have it posted on my dartboard. But I wonder sometimes, do we have a responsibility to make everybody laugh at the material that we're doing? Or do we have a responsibility just to make ourselves laugh and like do we have social responsibilities like that's the first thing that opens the show which is like what is our responsibility as comedians to um i used to have a joke in the show though and i took it out because it was not worth the squeeze but um

this comedian at the beginning of the show i run run into a comedian, a very smart comedian, and she says to me, you know, comedians have a responsibility. And I used to say, to inform people how I feel about the trans community? And she says, what? No. And it was a joke that was, it wasn't in that real conversation, but it was topical. But like, you know, the funny thing about that joke is it actually tells you where i am right like it tells you where i am in a very in a very slight way yeah and so i do think that like doing material in ways that everyone can respect for their deftness gets

you out of almost anything and whenever you're 100're 100% right. And I watch- I always say, just be funny. If you can be funny, that's fine. I'll laugh at it. Herbiglia is great at that, by the way. He's really good. Yeah. Let me end on a question. You built this show over the years

with the help of close collaborators. And you've mentioned your director and close friend, Adam Brace, who died earlier this year at 43 from complications from a stroke. We recently and suddenly lost someone on our team, Blake Neshek, our senior producer, who had a profound impact on our team. I saw that. I'm very sorry.

Yeah. I'd love you to end by asking about Adam's impact on the show and on you also. By the way, I had a stroke many years ago at 45, maybe? I read your piece about how you were abroad, and I thought about that a lot in the weeks following Adam's. Yeah. So talk a little bit about his impact on the show and on you. Forgive me if I get like a little. That's okay. You know, Adam was,

I met Adam in 2012. He directed, he worked on many beautiful shows, including Fleabag. And, and to show, and with a lot of mostly British comedians. He was a Brit. And we would sit.

I wrote all three of my shows with Adam in the same way, which is we'd sit at one table in Soho in London and sort of plot out the show. And I'd try to make him laugh. He had this big laugh. sort of plot out the show and I try to make him laugh. He had this big laugh and he was, I don't know if, if he was my closest friend. Sometimes I say he was my closest friend,

but where did you meet? We met at a birthday party, met a birthday party for, for someone else's working on Fleabag. And, and, and he understood me better than anybody. And, and um and he understood me better than anybody and um and was able to argue with me in a way that made me feel really seen and understood and there isn't anyone there's anyone who um who i miss uh more than him and also the show is it's not to give too much information, but you know, sometimes I really like doing

the show because it makes me feel close to him because it's the last thing I'll ever do with him and sometimes it feels a little macabre to be doing this thing that I built with a guy who I discussed every day, I discussed the show every day with Adam after the show, before the show. And so to now not have that partnership is really challenging. But he and I both shared some things and were different in certain ways. He was pathologically committed to thoughtfulness in a way that makes me look like a real vanilla liberal. And I really, I loved him hugely. And I just did one show last week uh in edinburgh which is where at the fringe festival in his memory to raise money for an award they're setting

up in his his name but his impact on my work is really really uh incalculable and he and he and there's one thing that i've been i thought of this morning that's really stood out to me which is he said to me once after i came off stage, he said, you know, the audience laughs at that joke, but they're disappointed in you. And I said, what do you mean? He said, that joke gets a laugh, but there's something in the audience that they can't quite suss out, which makes them think slightly less of you. And it's because it's such an easy joke. slightly less of you and it's because it's such an easy joke and so a joke being easy sometimes means um uh sometimes means being very obviously right and sometimes the joke is is being very obviously in bad taste and so i think those have been two that means you're a pleaser or an offender of an

easy offender and so i think those guardrails have been really useful for me. But there are a thousand lessons from Adam. And I miss him very much. And it was a brutal shock to lose him so soon before the run. And what are you going to do next then? That's my very last question. And with whom? I don't know.

I'm writing and directing a Christmas film, which seems like a silly thing for an Orthodox Jew to do, but I'm very excited. Oh, no, it's good. My daughter, who is Jewish, loves Christmas. I mean, listen. My wife is like, can you stop? I'm like, Santa's pretty cool.

I don't know what to say. I mean, it really is like the best you stop? I'm like, Santa's pretty cool. I don't know what to say. I mean, it really is. It really is like the best holiday for me. And I'm going to write a book. I'm going to write a book about, I'm going to go to other places I don't belong. And it may not be white nationalist meetings, but I'm very open to if anyone has suggestions of places that I absolutely don't belong. I'm keen on visiting. I think you should join Mar-a-Lago as a member. You know what? I've thought about it.

I would love to get in. I would love to get in there. If anyone knows a problematic rapper, I'd be really thrilled. I'd be really thrilled by that. Well, I'm super excited to see what you do next thank you so much for having me that was beautiful to hear him talk about adam brace and i like that you asked where they met originally it was really nice i can't imagine obviously we lost blake and we can imagine

launching within two months of the passing of your partner yeah I agree you know it's interesting it reminded me a little bit of Rent where the playwright died right before the show premiered and of course it was an enormous hit that impact you know it's just you could feel

it in the show and probably made it more emotional it made it more emotional and it's sad that Adam Brace wasn't there to see all the feedback on the show, which has been very positive. Although Alex was a bit hung up on that Jackson McHenry review. Yeah. Now he is. Now he is. I don't read them.

I never believe people when they say that. I read every fucking review I ever get. Do you read every review? Sure do. Do you change things because of the reviews? No, not at all. You just read them to think that you're right? Often I am.

But I want to hear what smart people say. I don't, dumb people I could care less about. I got one on Pivot the other day and I was like, you're an idiot. I wrote them, you're an idiot. They're like, you only talk about this. I'm like, we talked about, and I counted them. I'm like, we talked about 16 different things. So this is inaccurate and I will not tolerate what you have to say.

On that subject of hearing what other people think, you and I have talked about this a lot. We try, we endeavor to bring voices that disagree, and we've worked a lot to bring conservatives onto the show, even though you, I would say, are not the favorite of conservatives, Kara. I don't know if you're aware. I just want to tell you that. It's not true. They love me. Some, some don't. They do. But you also, you talked about this. You turned off your Twitter comments. Do you feel-

That's the trolls. That's the Russian trolls. But do you ever, like, you talked about this. You turned off your Twitter comments. Do you feel- That's the trolls. That's the Russian trolls. But do you ever like, are you ever sad that you're not hearing what people think because you turned off these comments? No, because what they do is they just, they do it in a different way. I can see them. The ones who, I want the ones who want to do maximum effort to really give their opinion. That's why.

You can give comments on someone's stuff without being just below them. You can be, you can repost it and stuff. So it's fine. He was not giving comments on everything, Alex Edelman. stuff without being just below them. You can repost it and stuff. So it's fine. He was not giving comments on everything, Alex Edelman. He admitted, I like someone who cops out but admits that they're copping out. He's like, it's not worth the squeeze for me to comment on Dave Chappelle. But I don't feel the same way about Dave Chappelle that I felt when I was a kid, which tells you what he might think about. Sounds like my son. He still likes him and everything else, but he thought he overdid it

on the trance stuff. He was bored. He didn't think it was funny. That likes him and everything else, but he thought he overdid it on the trance stuff. Like, he was bored. He didn't think it was funny. That's all. So, if you're not as funny in your comic, you have a problem. Yeah. Although, that was interesting to hear him say, what is a comedian's responsibility, right? And the interesting point he made is if a joke is offensive, it's in some way a craft failure.

That was. I think that's true. Do you think that's always true? I do. I do. Yes. Because I think people, there's cheap jokes, and I think people have had traffic in them. You don't think anyone has ever pre-offended?

Yes, I do. And you shouldn't listen to comics if you are. Yes. I think that's the thing, if some people are offended. Yes, but why are you listening to comedy if you don't want to be offended a little bit? You know, in the case of Chappelle, like, he made a lesbian joke. It just wasn't that funny. I wasn't offended. I was i was like can you there's so many good lesbian jokes you can make um in the case of bill burr who i really love i think he's amazing he's always saying super offensive things about women and stuff like that it's part of his act and i don't mind it i don't mind it i think you have to go into comedy with an open mind i think if not funny is different and cheap shots shots are not funny. They just never are. They're cheap shots. And maybe it gets a laugh or a little huh out of people.

But you're playing to the bottom. And I think really sophisticated comics don't do that, don't traffic in that. It's interesting even in this conversation talking about the hushed tone, you know, contrarian opinions you hear amongst polite liberal society. And also that he didn't want to be righteous he almost he wanted to avoid righteousness and i think that's smart because righteousness only helps you gain popularity with people who agree with you um but he made a distinction between empathy and giving someone a free pass yeah where's the line for you because you i thought very you're very honest saying sometimes i'm like i don't think these people deserve i don't you know a lot of time much of the I don't. I think I don't mean to say I'm right about it. I just don't have

time for it anymore. I'm too old. And I'm like, enough with you. When do you age out of giving someone empathy for their opinion? I don't think I was particularly empathetic ever in my life. But I think he was right. You should realize people are human. A lot of the time I've been thinking about this a lot. I'm writing the last chapters of my book. And, you know, I always try to think of people as human beings often. And that's why I don't tend to write about their personal lives or what they look like and things like that. Everyone has their different things and judge them only on their business, what they're doing in their business. And so I think he's right.

I think you have to see people as people and understand how they got this way. How did they get in this room? How did he get in this room? It was to do a show, right? How did they get in this room is a really interesting story. And what caused them to think these things, which are so ridiculous. I'm sorry, if you think black people or Jewish people are less, you're not a decent person. You're just not. I mean, and so I think how people get places is a really important story. And I think that's why he's empathetic. Yeah. And the fact that he's willing to sit there and engage those conversations after the show is very interesting. And not just how he got in there, but also how he got out, which is what we're going to do right now, get out of this room. So, Kara, can you read us out, please? Sure. Today's show was produced by Naima Raza, Christian Castro-Rossell,

Megan Cunane, and Megan Burney. Special thanks to Kate Gallagher and Cody Nelson. Our engineers are Fernando Arruda and Rick Kwan. Our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, you're sitting with me in the front row. If not, I'm staring you down critically from the front row. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On with Kara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Monday with more. Food insecurity still affects millions of individuals around the globe. And Nestle, a global leader in nutrition, health and wellness, understands the importance of working together to create lasting change. Nestle's partnerships extend beyond just financial support, from building urban hoop houses to producing custom seasoning for food banks.

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