On with Kara Swisher - ICE, Iran and $1,000 ‘Cheap Seats’: The World Cup Returns to the U.S.

Episode Date: June 8, 2026

When FIFA picked the U.S. to co-host the 2026 World Cup alongside Mexico and Canada, Americans saw it as more than just a boon for the country’s tourism industry —  it was a chance to finally prove to the world that the U.S. is a soccer-loving nation. But on the eve of kickoff, the tournament has been overshadowed by exorbitant ticket prices, disappointing global travel projections, the war in Iran, and uncertainty about the Trump administration’s immigration enforcement plans at stadiums. Kara breaks it all down with three experts: Rachel Bachman, senior sports reporter for The Wall Street Journal; Will Leitch, a contributing editor at New York Magazine and the founder of the seminal sports blog Deadspin; and Tariq Panja, a global correspondent at The New York Times who focuses on where money, geopolitics and crime intersect with sports. The four of them talk about the stakes for FIFA’s biggest World Cup and whether the soccer on the field can outshine the controversies surrounding it.  Questions? Comments? Email us at [e-mail] or find us on YouTube, Instagram, TikTok, Threads, and Bluesky @onwithkaraswisher. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Just step out of your home, go into the streets and enjoy this thing, because nothing like the World Cup brings people from all over, whether it's within the United States and the incredible diaspora you've got there, or the fans who will be traveling there. When they get together, this is a magical thing. Hi, everyone from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. This is on with Caroswisher, and I'm Caroswisher. is just days away from hosting the equivalent of 78 Super Bowls in the span of a month. I'm talking, of course, about the FIFA World Cup. The U.S. is co-hosting alongside Mexico and Canada. It's the world's largest sporting event, and this year's is the biggest in history

with 48 teams playing more than 100 games across three countries. It's also arguably the most controversial. That's saying a lot given FIFA's reputation for corruption and scandal. Exorbitant ticket prices, the war in Iran, and fears. of immigration sweeps are so far getting more attention than the upcoming games. And President Trump, the winner of FIFA's cynical Peace Prize, is all but guaranteed to insert politics into the picture. I've got three experts here to talk about the drama around this year's World Cup. Rachel Bachman is a senior sports reporter at the Wall Street Journal, where she's been covering

the lead-up to this year's tournament. Will Leach is a contributing editor at New York Magazine and the founder of the sports blog, Deadspin. And Terrick Ponja is a is a global correspondent at the New York Times with a focus on where money, geopolitics, and crime intercept with sports. He's also covered six prior World Cups. I think it's really important as a business story. I think FIFA has been one of the more appalling.

International organizations, especially giving Trump that Peace Prize, but the corruption, the ticket prices, everything else, has sort of been riveting. And I'm really interested why fans who are at the heart of this, especially fans that don't have the means that more wealthy people have, can't just go and enjoy this stuff

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Wayfair, every style, every home. It is all. Rachel, Will, and Terrick. Thanks for coming on on. Great to be here. Thank you for having me. So American Soccer has come a long way since it last hosted a World Cup in 1994. It's a very long time ago.

But for the un-initiator uninterested, why is the World Cup a great news story from a cultural, geopolitical and business point of view, Rachel, then Will, and then Terrick? One of the most interesting things is the World Cup is the biggest event in, you know, the headquartered country is the U.S. this year. And it's not the number one sport in the U.S., but it is the number one sport in the rest of the world. So that alone makes it interesting. Well? Yeah, and this is a sport that's watched everywhere, right?

Like, there's nothing niche about soccer. If anything, the only place that's niche is here. A lot of ways, you watch this in the fjords of Norway or the, you know, the deserts of Egypt. Really across the world, every eye is going to be on this event. No matter what your political circumstances or your demographics or everything, everyone is always watching the world. All right, Terek? Nothing is as big as this thing.

I was just watching a video of Kerala in India, and there was a 50-meter banner for the Argentinian national team that's been created there and thousands of people getting to work. Just a little glimpse of how big this thing is. I don't know where you guys are sitting there in the United States of America, you think the Olympics is big. It has nothing on this, the emotion, the passion, and just the virality of this is going to be at a different level to anything

that American sports fans are used to. There's always controversy around FIFA and the World Cup, and that was especially true, the last two tournaments hosted by Russia and Qatar. Terrick, what's different about the buildup and criticisms this time because here they are again? Differences, this is the United States hosting extensively a democracy, so different to Qatar and slightly different to Russia.

But there's been a lot of controversy here. We have issues related to the ICE-actors, in the U.S. and the people they've been targeting. A lot of those people will be soccer fans, will be football fans, as we call them here. They'll be coming from all over the world or be in the United States, hoping to go to games. I remember last summer, the U.S. hosted the Club World Cup, and there were Brazilian teams there, for example. And I talked to some fans of Flamengo, which is Brazil's most popular team, who were living in Boston. Now, they were going to go in convoy to watch the games last summer.

And at the last minute, they thought, hang on, this might not be a good idea. We don't want to be so visible driving in this big convoy of Brazilians to this soccer match. Right. And that tells you that's one of the controversies. I'm sure the others will get into them. Of course, Iran is coming to the World Cup. At least we think they are. This is the first World Cup in history where a host is at war with one of the participants right now.

So we've got the issues over visas and not just for Iran, but for, for other nations. I'm hearing other nations are struggling to get their visas in time for the World Cup. That's another one. And I'm sure the guys can talk about ticket pricing and sundry other issues related to this World Cup. So fans, of course, are complaining around the world about the cost of tickets. Rachel, for the first time ever, FIFA is using demand-driven or dynamic ticket pricing. The result is even nosebleed seats for some early games cost more than $1,000. That's many times more expensive than previous World Cups. How do we know about how FIFA decided on these record high prices? What do we know about it? We know very little. And that's part of the mystery of fans and

part of fans' frustration, right? So one of the distinctive qualities of this World Cup is that FIFA didn't issue a list of ticket prices. It just simply started dropping them on its website in these drips and drabs. And when fans, if they were lucky enough to gain access at early times on that website, they didn't know how many tickets would be left. They didn't know if that was all what they were looking at was going to be all for the entire tournament or if there would be future tickets dropped. They didn't know if the prices would rise or fall. So fans have expressed a lot of frustration about just the mystery surrounding even the sales process of these tickets.

Now, you wrote that FIFA is, quote, leveraging the potent cocktail of American World Cup to pack its war chest with money. Talk about who controls this organization because we're talking about a projected $11 billion in revenue. for what is a notoriously corrupt organization. And, of course, the president, FIFA's president, called the U.S. the most developed entertainment market in the world and said ticket prices had to be priced accordingly, meaning we can take your money, I assume. That's a version of that.

I mean, ostensibly, who controls FIFA is the 211 member federations, that, you know, the countries around the world who belong to FIFA. But effectively, it's the FIFA Council, headed by Gianni Infantino, the president of FIFA. So he and a handful of top FIFA leaders, really make most of the decisions. The war chest they're packing, as I mentioned, will eventually be spread out among many of those nations,

and that's one of the reasons why Infantino has enjoyed a lot of support during his administration, because he's increased that amount of money that he's been spreading around the globe. And that's one of the opportunities he sees, among others, is the ability to leverage the U.S.'s incredible buying power, which is far outstrips what it was even in 94. to increase those disbursements around the world even further.

So it's a money grab, essentially. Now, TARIC, FIFA has also set up its own ticket resale market, where it gets 30% cut on all transactions. Other countries have very strict laws about reselling tickets, especially in Europe. The U.S. does not. That's why you're seeing million-dollar price tags for tickets, the final game, for example.

So how is FIFA's secondary market exacerbating frustration from fans? This thing's remarkable. I think the word cash grab was used, And FIFA's justification for this is because, as you said, secondary markets are not only legal, but promoted and popular in the United States. They are. In Mexico, for example, you can't do this. So tickets were taken off their secondary market for games in Mexico. Mexico has Strickle with one of the co-hosts.

Now, FIFA is saying, well, look, if this is happening, why should people outside of the game be making all of this money? we will do it, but they've done it, and they've done it on steroids, because of the 15% charge from this seller, 15% from the buyer, 30% of those ticket fees will be going to FIFA, this non-profit organization in Switzerland. Now, the kind of rapaciousness, this need for all of this money, Rachel has described how FIFA works, I guess, that they've got these 211 members. argue that FIFA has too much money already. It doesn't know what to do with it. It made seven and a half billion from the last cycle with Qatar. And it's dispersing this money, not on a needs basis, the same amount to every country, whether you're Brazil, whether you're San Marino, whether you're

the Democratic Republic of Congo, you get this same amount of money. And every four years, hey, there's an election, who are you going to vote for? This is not for the benefit of soccer. Gianni Fantino and FIFA say 90% of this money goes into football and into soccer. But is it going to soccer in the right way? Or is this just a way of sort of feathering the nests of football associations and, I guess, other fat cats? And just one final point. In terms of the power, Rachel mentioned the FIFA Council. This is a completely toothless body.

It meets three or four times a year, often not in person, maybe a Zoom meeting. each of those members gets a minimum of $250,000 a year just to show up at this virtual meeting or in-person meeting. Nothing is really discussed in any meaningful way. Decisions have already been taken by the most powerful people, probably a handful of three, five men outside of this with Gianni Infantino and the regional soccer heads. And that is how soccer works and then the show rolls on. So, Will, FIFA is right that Americans are used to big markups to resell tickets and dynamic pricing for live events. We also see dynamic pricing for airline tickets, ride-sharing prices, hotel rooms, even grocery stores. This seems like a tipping point in some way.

According to the athletic, there are still thousands of tickets for sale, the U.S. opener against Paraguay. If the market isn't bearing a higher ticket prices, then why are prices so high? And I'd love you to compare them to games in Canada and Mexico, for example. Yeah, one of the interesting things about this, too, is, you know, FIFA is also controlling the supply of these tickets. So I'm based out of Athens, Georgia, so I'm covering the games in Atlanta. There is a game at like 2.30 in the afternoon on a Wednesday that has a 450 minimum pricing. I feel comfortable saying that is not the market deciding that price. And if you even look at a lot of these resell sites, there are not actually that many tickets even available.

There are big, open swaths of the stadium where you couldn't buy tickets if you want. wanted to. That makes a lot of people think that FIFA still artificially not unleashing these tickets, not putting out a lot of these tickets to make it look like there is this massive demand. The problem is, is you can try that for a while. Eventually, they're not going to let these tickets, theoretically anyway, would not actually let these venues be empty. That's why when people keep asking me that, the number one question people ask me about the World Cup is, seriously, why is this so expensive? I really just want to say, just wait. Wait, there are officially quashing spaces so that it seems like there's.

more space. And part of the reason they can do this, too, is because, you know, this is not like, the NFL has to come back next year. Baseball has to come back next year. The NBA has to come back next year. FIFA is showing up and they're like, they're getting their money and they're getting out. And I think that, you know, as Rachel kind of spoke about before, a lot of this is FIFA. This has been the World Cup. They've been waiting for. They've been waiting to get this U.S. market. They've been waiting to get everything they can out of this. They are going to milk every single penny out of this that they can because they don't worried about, oh, well, I hope the U.S. soccer fans don't get ingress and don't buy tickets in four years.

They're going to be all on to the next thing, and I think that's the strategy. Yeah. New Jersey and New York have subpoenaed FIFA over the prices, whether it misled fans about ticketing categories. By the way, California is also looking into the ticketing schemes, and European fans have lodged a formal complaint in Brussels. Rachel, we're just a few days from the kickoff, could these have any impact on the tournament, on the prices, and FIFA more broadly? Well, I think in the short term, on the tournament, no. I don't think I think it's going to happen before the tournament. On the prices, probably no, either. I mean, it's quite possible there might be some settlement over the long term. And in terms of FIFA's behavior, you know,

they claim that they've sold 90% of the roughly 6 million tickets available, which, you know, at the prices they're offering them sounds pretty good, if that is the case. So I don't see them, you know, short of some massive injunction. And especially since, as Will pointed out, they're not coming back here anytime soon. I don't see them necessarily altering their behavior. We'll be back in a minute. This episode is brought to you by IQ Bar. IQ. Bar, protein bars, IQ Mix, I.I.Q. Joe Mushroom coffees are delicious, low sugar, brain and body fuel you need to win your day. Whether you prefer bar, a drink, or something in between, you'll find an IQ bar product that will help meet your nutrition needs. I want to try for yourself.

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slash Kara Swisher. Support for this show comes from Fodzim. Have you ever gone out for a meal feeling stressed? Not because you're worried about your reservation or the weather, but because of how you might feel after. With Fodzim, you can enjoy your favorite foods. without the pain. Fodzyme is a tasteless powder you sprinkle right onto your food. It helps break down FodMaps, the hard-to-digest components in food that can cause bloating, gas, and pain before they cause discomfort. It mixes into your food fast and it comes in portable packs you can take with you everywhere. Just sprinkle, eat, and feel great. I'm really interested because a lot of foods these days, because as I'm getting older, make me sort of bloated and to feel badly, especially

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Talk about how does that affect the vibes at these stadiums and why should we care about that? Why is that important? It's important because what the World Cup is, is not just what happens on the field. It is the backdrop. It's the pageantry of a World Cup game with these supporters who are coming from wherever they come from all over the world. Particularly, I've found recently tournaments have been enlivened by the presence of South American fans, for example. Argentines in Qatar were magical. That World Cup obviously had a real tough backdrop to it with the buildup.

We don't need to get into all of the various issues with Qatar. Europeans stayed away in ways that they didn't in Russia four years earlier, and there was a worry that the atmosphere would suffer. And then here come the Argentines, thousands upon thousands of these people. Their team made it to the final and won it. And the sound of Argentines all over Doha is still ringing in my ears. In fact, where they were staying in Doha, they stayed in this migrant worker residential zone. I think it was called Alwakra outside of Doha.

And they are so fondly remembered there that the neighbourhood has been renamed Argentine neighborhood. So that's what it's still called. Oh, wow. The fans are a big part of the story. You also profiled Argentinian fans who are taking on thousands of dollars in debt to come to the U.S. So when you spoke to them, some still hadn't bought their tickets yet. They're hoping to find someone they get there. What does it say not only about the true cost for international fans, but also the depth of passion that FIFA is able to monetize? Yeah, there's a sense that their kind of passion and their almost obsession with this thing is being abused by FIFA. One of the things that separate this from, say, hotels and airlines is FIFA is a monopolist. There's no other official seller of World Cup tickets. It's this or nothing.

And these people, they feel like they're protagonists. Their team needs them in the stadium to. who do well. They come as a package deal. Messy on the field and his friends and us on the sidelines. And I couldn't believe some of the things people are doing. Like, you know, maxing out as many credit cards as possible, borrowing from friends, neighbors, the guys holding a raffle. A woman was talking about selling her car. Like, live for today, live for this World Cup. It happens every four years. We live in a topsy-turvy country where everything is possible anyway economically. Let's just try and do this because guess what? This is one of the things that we are known for. This is one of the things that Argentina is known positively for around the world. And we've got to go

and represent. And there were some people who were saying, look, even if I don't get a ticket, I need to be near there. I need to be with my people. And that's part of it as well, the journey. Well, one of the things, I don't feel like we're going to name something in Argentine neighborhood in this country for right now, Will, for international travel, there's a lot of confused about, as you said, visa requirements and steep fees imposed by the Trump administration. Of course, ICE agents will be at stadiums. DHS is offering to send agents to help local police partners with security, but it's denied plans for major sweeps. How real is that fear, though, of coming here? I think it's kind of undeniable. You know, they, for the record, this was also a concern. with the Club World Cup, and it didn't really turn out then. But the fact is, is, you know, it speaks to among, what of the, we haven't gotten to the issues of how the United States is currently seen around the world right now. It's going to be hosting the World Cup. But, I mean, this is at the center of it, right? The idea of, sure, the administration says that

ICE will just be helping out and they won't be actually doing enforcement. I would not blame anyone for perhaps having a touch of skepticism, I think about that along with a lot of other things. but also even if they don't, the fact that that is something that is at the centerpiece of any world traveler that we want to come to the games that were supposed to. Like, this was the World Cup that was supposed to be the one that went smoothly, right? There was so much worry about Qatar. There was so much worry about Russia. This was supposed to be the U.S., not just like taking its place. Yeah, we weren't supposed to be the problematic country.

Yes, and also this was, we talked about 1994 earlier, this was supposed to be the culmination of the American soccer moment. Like this was something that they've been building for such a long time. You remember, the MLS started after the 94 World Cup. And so a lot of that was all based in this notion that, you know, this was supposed to be one of the best generations of the U.S. men's team. This is supposed to all be building up for this culmination moment. And the U.S. is, I think, perceived as perhaps not at its best right now. No, we're not the best of world citizens.

So Rachel, speaking of that, a recent survey found that 80% of hotels in host cities are not seeing the bookings they forecast at international. Tourism to the U.S. was also way down last year. Four million fewer people visited than the year prior, the first drop since COVID. Trump and his policies are the big reason why. Cities and local businesses have been promised a windfall from global tourism during the World Cup. And if it doesn't materialize, what are the knock-on effects? Well, one of the immediate knock on effects is a lot of the host cities are not going to turn a profit or at least pay for their expenses, which are pretty considerable. One of the reasons why you're seeing, for instance, in Boston and in New York, these really high train costs that have made up on these, you know, $150, $100 for train rides that usually cost, you know, $12 or $13, is because the host cities are trying to recoup whatever money they can. So that's sort of the immediate knock on effect. And longer term, of course, you know, there's the tourism. effect, right? I mean, America is usually a very attractive place to visit. It's pretty unwieldy

to visit, but this certainly had the promise of something that had a pretty rosy glow to it. But given the backdrop, I think it's fair to say that that glow hasn't quite materialized. Sometimes when the game start, it changes. But, you know, I spoke with one fan in Amsterdam who had been to a couple previous World Cups, and he said, you know, I'm going to watch in the street, put a TV out, and have my neighbors come and watch because I just don't want to go to the U.S. right now. So do you sense is the cost or is it Trump? I think it's a variety of factors. I mean, I think the number one reason is the cost.

Because if people are hardcore enough soccer fans and they really want to come here, I think most people will try to make it. Right. But certainly, you know, Trump is not terribly popular in Europe. And the Dutch fan I talked to said that was his line in the sand. He didn't want to go to an event on American soil, given the political backdrop right now. So the U.S. is also in the middle of a war with Iran, as you noted. Iran men's team is set to play as three group stage games in the U.S. as of our taping late Wednesday,

no one with the team has been issued U.S. visas as they reported they may get them Friday. Their training base was also moved to Mexico. As you said, this marks the first time in World Cup history. The host country has been at war with a qualified nation. How complicated do you think this is going to get? I think it's extremely complicated. I was with the Iranian team last week in Turkey where they've been at training camp. And my my overwhelming sense was I was feeling very sorry for these players.

Instead, a World Cup happens every four years. It is such the high point of their lives. And this fog of uncertainty will remain over their presence until the ball is kicked in that first game against New Zealand for them in Los Angeles. So you've mentioned there now in going to go to me. Mexico. They're going to Tijuana. They were supposed to be in Tucson, in Arizona, where they were going to train. Logistically, it's closer to L.A., but that is across a border. They almost have a black mark against them. There's 48 teams at the World Cup, but this one is going to have to

go through all of these hurdles. Meanwhile, we're having so many comments, both from American officials, and Iranian officials that are contradictory, like the same guy who says we won't be coming, then we'll say, well, of course, FIFA will have to create the conditions because we qualified on merit. We should be playing. This is FIFA's competition, not the US's competition. Now, the next stage, as you said, there is these visa issues.

They need to be issued. What I understand is it's not player by player. they've applied as a group. They'll get these visas as a squad of players, both for Mexico, multiple entry for Mexico and the U.S. because of the nature of the tournament and their tournament. And yeah, it's just, it just feels very much a dampener, right? For them, their people. Right, right.

We saw some players and staff of the Iranian women's soccer team applied to Australia during this year's Women's Asia Cup. Most of them withdrew those applications, two players chose to remain. Could that happen here? Of course it could. Of course it could happen because what we were talking about with the women in Australia

was they were overseas at an international soccer tournament and it happened straight after the war. And in their case, it was about how they behaved during the national anthem. I think they didn't sing the national anthem. There was uproar on social media

and Iran. And I think there were people in Australia human rights groups, etc., who were talking to them. And that led to a group of them deciding to stay back and apply for asylum. And that number then was reduced to, I think, maybe only two or three by the end of it. Some decided to go back. Now, can you imagine the pressure on these people? If, yes, you're going to claim asylum. You're overseas. But guess what? Most of your family is still in Iran. Right, exactly. Right. There's huge pressures on these people, and to try and almost make them political figures, I can understand exactly why they would be seen that way because they're wearing the shirt, they're seeing they are the symbol of this country at war with the United States in the biggest event in the world. Right.

This is hard. Although I suspect a lot of Americans are not as angry as Iran as Trump is. So, Will, you had a piece in New York Magazine, I mean, how conversations around politics and sports are about to get a lot louder. This will be a Trump World Cup. It will put himself at the center of it. What does it mean for the average American athlete to have to navigate U.S. politics on the world stage and also casual fans who just want to root for their home team?

Yeah, I actually think we got a pretty good example of this with the hockey team, actually, in the Olympics. I think it was a lot about Cash Fetel, you know, pounding his drinks, his beers in there. But the thing that actually, I think, hit a lot of people even harder was when Trump called in and essentially insulted the women's team and kind of mocked the women's team in this moment where instantly, you know, one of the things that was really interesting is, you know, think about these American hockey players. They had not more gold medal since the famous miracle on ice team. You'd have to imagine all of them like, oh my gosh, we won the gold medal. We are going to never have to buy a drink in this country again. And a week later, people were like barely cheering for them on Saturday Night Live. And it became this instantly polarizing thing.

And what's interesting, too, is this is a casual fan event. Like, certainly the hardcore fans, I love soccer, everybody here on this panel, we're all into soccer. We're really into it. But like the Olympics, the World Cup is kind of for casuals, right? That's part of the fun of this, is you can kind of come in. People can kind of pay attention, really, really get into it and then move on. The Olympics are similar in this way. And we saw that with the hockey team.

I think there were, frankly, a lot of new hockey fans minted from heated rivalry. And then came over to go watch the men's team, got really excited and then, like, learned, oh, no, they're not actually fictional characters from this show that I like. They actually have their own opinions and they're going to react differently in these situations. That kind of test that I wouldn't say the hockey team failed, but it was an impossible one to pass, I would say, is the sort of thing that is undeniably something you're going to see with members of this U.S. team if they advance, of course. You've got to keep Cash Patel out of the room is really what has to happen. Well, I feel pretty confident that Cash Patel's probably not watching a lot. He's more of a hockey guy. He's more good and more his thing.

Is there beer there? He'll be there. Rachel, he'll be there. All of this raises, obviously, a big question about security around the stadiums. The U.S. is hosting equivalent of 78 Super Bowls in about a month. But DHS officials admitted that 75-day shutdown earlier this year had disrupted preparations for the tournament. How prepared is the U.S. to protect fans and teams at these games? at this moment. Well, this is part of the federal responsibility of hosting the tournament. And, you know,

the proof is when the game start, right? An example of this was in 2024, the Cop America soccer tournament where some fans really overran the stadium in Miami, one of the stadiums that also will host World Cup games, that absolutely cannot happen, anything like that this time, because the stakes are even higher. And, you know, as was the case with that match, there might be situations where there are, you know, thousands of fans that don't have tickets the game, but are just caught up in the moment and, you know, celebrating. And I don't know that we'll really know what the prep is like until one of these huge group stage games happens. Like, for instance, Portugal, Columbia, which is also actually at that stadium in Miami, that's a group stage game that

I wrote about that has a now get-in resale ticket price of starting at $2,500. That's not FIFA's fault. That's purely demand-driven. But, you know, a game like that will be an early test of just how ready the U.S. security apparatuses. And then they have the Scots rolling in, of course, against Brazil. So, again, that stadium is going to get a lot of tests. Just on this, though, I would say that tournament in 2024, that was not a FIFA tournament, FIFA for, you know, all the criticism,

one thing it's very good at is organizing World Cups. It's got a lot of history in doing this. I've always said, you can host this tournament on the moon. They just pack up, they've got a book, the World Cup, it works like this, the security searches, the perimeter, all of this. That game, and it was remarkable. There were people clambering into the stadium, climbing through air-conditioning vents to try and get into that stadium.

I just don't think, however much the desire to get into this stadium is, Any of these guys will get anywhere near a FIFA World Cup stadium in the U.S., Miami included. But I guess we're going to have to see that. We'll be back in a minute. When you're a mid-sized business, you need every competitive advantage you can get. Like an AI solution that works for you, not against you. SAP Grow is built with AI embedded at its core, working across every system. And it's ready to go from day one.

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Now, when you look at everything, there's a lot of flashing red lights around the tournament just days before kickoffs. What's the stake, well, if this World Cup falls way short? short of expectations in terms of attendance, revenue, local impact. At this point, what can be done, I think nothing, correct? Yeah, I certainly feel it would be something that maybe felt more locally than with FIFA moving forward. I think they're going to be fine. They're going to be fine out of this. I was so glad that Rachel brought that up earlier about those trains that were, the buses that were going out to New Jersey, because there was this big, like, how could New Jersey transit do this? But it's like, for crying out loud, I mean, they didn't ask for suddenly

to have to deal with all of this massive security thing and all of these things. You talk about the different Super Bowls going on. If you remember when the Super Bowl happened in East Rutherford about a decade ago, it was a huge mess. It was a huge, huge mess. And I think there was a sense that they would be more ready for things now

because this would be bigger. So more money was spent, more expectations were had, more things were set up, and they're just not coming through. Again, not a problem for FIFA. They're going to be just fine. in this, but these, so many, these, not just the hotels, but like all these local businesses,

they're not the ones, it's a common mistake that a love sports leagues in America will love to claim, oh, well, we're actually, you have to build us a stadium because it will actually help the community and it will give jobs to everyone that doesn't usually pay off. But certainly with this, there is, like, this, this is where the FIFA traveling world show really, really affects, because basically they come in, get everything they came out of this, and whatever happens outside of that, hey, if you can't make money off the World Cup, then we'll take it. And I think that that is, I think, what you've really kind of been seeing. Well, just on this, the municipalities is a public money that we should really be thinking

about here more than the private sector, because these cities have spent public money to host the World Cup, significant public money. And what they were promised was like, you spend this, but you're going to have opportunities to make money back. That public money you've spent. And the big one was sponsorship. FIFA had said. to the cities. You know what? Because you're doing all of this for us, we're going to give you

a chance to do local sponsorship in your cities. And then whenever they've tried to do this, almost at every turn, they've been blocked by guess who, by FIFA itself, saying, actually, no, no, no, that's our category. Oh, you want that one. That's also ours. Yeah, you might be able to get the local pizza dealership. The mattress guy. Yeah, yeah. So, so that money hasn't arrived. But how big a risk is a half-filled stadium? It's embarrassing, correct? Yeah. The last time World Cup Stadium, in my mind, has been empty, was kind of before these times we live in. I remember some games at Italia 90, for example, being empty. And that football was obviously hugely popular in Europe and in South America. But travel wasn't as easy as it has become since then.

Hooliganism was a thing back then. Like, we are in a different paradigm. And don't forget, 1994, I think, still holds the record for the best attended World Cup. And that was with 24 teams. It grew to 32 since then. So that's what you're competing with. So it'll be really sad. If America could fill stadiums in 1990s. when soccer was not popular, what are we saying about the state of this today? Yeah, we have to bring in Taylor Swift, obviously. And that speaks to the general, just an incredible frustration that so many people have been involving U.S. soccer,

that this was supposed to be the one. This is something they've been working on for a long time. Again, 94 launched so much soccer in this country. And in the last 10 years, there was so much built up. And then this really kind of started when the United States failed to, qualifying, that shifted a lot. That shifted a lot of attention, a lot of money. And it's a shame because this U.S. soccer generation of players was supposed to be the one that was built up to have this. Terrac is right. The idea that 1994, when it was just, they're playing, well, what is this tournament?

This is so fascinating. This thing that there was happening in the United States was such a big thing. The fact that you would have gone actually backwards. Not only does it look bad now, it looks awful for the United States, a place that was supposed to be the growth industry of soccer, was supposed to be the thing that was supposed to move forward. So, Rachel, the drama on the men's World Cup also affecting plans

for the U.S. to co-host the Women's World Cup in 2013. The confirmation has been delayed because the White House hasn't signed government guarantees. The Trump administration has reportedly pressuring FIFA to ban trans athletes

from competing before it does. So host cities also want better deals than they're getting for the men's tournaments now. What can it mean for the U.S. led bid to host the Women's World Cup? I think it would be huge. I mean, for one reason,

you know, this World Cup is the biggest ever with 48 teams, and the women's tournament is also going to increase to 48 teams that year, 2031. I mean, that would just be enormous for the women's game, which is much younger. Men's World Cup started in 1930. The women started in 1991, so FIFA definitely has some catching up to do. And the U.S., there's no question. The U.S. has been the standard bear. I mean, it has the best women's program historically won the most World Cups, and also 1999. I think that also, at least on average, that in terms of average attendance, that women's World Cup still holds the record for attendance.

But is that at risk now? Do you think? I don't think so. And the reason is because of the money. Even if this World Cup falls short of what people are hoping, there's still, you know, the big games are still going to be full. They're still going to be sold out. FIFA is still going to make its massive bag.

And there's still the promise of the American market coming out. In fact, I would argue that some people who were frustrated that they couldn't afford tickets to the men's World Cup might be. thrilled to get tickets to the Women's World Cup, which even in 2013 will probably still be less expensive. And of course, you have the women's team at the center of it with a chance to once again go to the finals. So I would say it's still pretty attractive, and US would definitely want to host it. And I know that Gianni Infantino would want to send it back here. So I think it's almost a fait accompli at this point. Right. Every episode we get an expert question from an outside expert.

Here's yours. Hi, my name is Guy Galloway. I work with Kara Swisher, and I'm an enormous football fan. I go to Premier League games probably once every other week. I've been to the World Cups in Russia and in Qatar, and absolutely adore the World Cup, and I'll go to several games in America. I can't think of an organization that has a better product and a worse brand. Corruption, bribery, $38,000 tickets for the final,

and a peace award to a president. who is bombing nations over and over, why on earth would you take the purity of this sport and pervert it so badly with politics, with extreme pricing that basically make sure that anyone who really loves the game is there on kind of a corporate outing, and attend? So my question is this, with respect to brand, how could you be so fucking stupid? Thanks. Well, Will, then Terek, then Rachel. How could they be so fucking stupid?

Well, they can be so fucking stupid because they're going to walk away with so much money in this. Like, the purity that he's talking about is exactly what allows all this. The fact is, I was talking to Roger Bennett, who hosts the M.N. Blazor podcast, we'll be kind of doing a tour of the World Cup. And he was talking about how, at a certain level, when these games start, all of that just fades away. It doesn't actually go away. But when you were watching, like, at a certain level,

the event itself is so exciting. And the things, the emotional attachment we have to this, all the pageantry and all the incredible things that come into this, at a certain level, we want to think about that. We don't want to think about this other stuff. The NFL used to call this an off-season problem. Like all those big scandals that would all pop up, the minute they kick the game off over Labor Day,

It all went away until the season was over, then they had to all deal with it again. I think that is not dissimilar. Terrick? Simply put, I think it's the equivalent of having Monopoly on Water. Why do you care about the brand when you have this product that everyone wants to buy? They know people will keep buying it. It doesn't hurt them at all. They are the masters of this universe.

There's nobody else out there. So that's it, Monopoly. Rachel? I think sports fans have become just masters at comparison. I think, you know, all of us are very jaded about all kinds of public institutions from politics to governing bodies that we've become experts at separating one from the other. And I think that's what's going to happen here again. It's people love the games and the pageantry, you know, and that stuff is still around. But at the same time, America, it's not just the World Cup that's painfully expensive.

We're also seeing four and five figure price tags for tickets to the NBA finals for Americans. What does this say about who professional sports are for now? What happens when the average fan gets priced out of team successes? I think sports reflects the larger society. It always has. The notion that sports have always been more for the wealthy than they have been for the needy. But as that gap continues to expand,

as we see particularly in the United States, sports is going to reflect that. That is independent of FIFA. That is independent of supply and demand and all of the things that they're doing and the corruption of these things. At a certain level, sports, whether it wants to or not,

whether people want to keep politics out of sports or not, these things reflect the society that they exist in. I think that you're seeing that in the world, you're seeing that specifically very much in the United States, and so therefore you're seeing it in sports. Yeah. I mean, as someone who's not an American, I do find it strange.

I mean, like, Will, you said, like, sports has always been for the wealthy first, In Europe or in South America, these sports clubs, they grew from working-class routes. It's for working-class people. This is where they sprung up from, really. And it was the only thing after being, say, in a mine that will bring everyone together for cheap and watch the local football team. And now we're seeing the inverse of this, with these ticket prices flying up, yes, for the World Cup. We're also seeing it in the Premier League.

I mean, Scott Galloway there, I'm sure he's not sure of a few quid going to a Premier League game every other week. He's still mad. He's going to go to a few World Cup games. But I mean, that is also, I guess, a reflection of who the modern stadium attendee is. So we're seeing here in the Premier League almost an attack on season ticket holders because those tickets are cheaper. And then clubs are trying to pry those season tickets back

so they could start selling them at higher price. for tourists who will attend, pay more money, buy product. So it's getting removed from the actual roots of what these community clubs are, what these clubs were, to an asset class, I guess. And I would add actually that, you know, unlike in Europe and in some cases in South America, the U.S. really has no organized fan opposition. You know, there have been cases in Europe, from what I understand that fan groups have organized and successfully beaten back, you know, season ticket price hikes and so on, and that just doesn't happen in the U.S. I mean, very rarely.

So for whatever reason, if it's because our sports didn't necessarily evolve the same way, fans are just sort of powerless or not using their power. Or they throw things. That's how we take care of it. They throw things at the people. So we talk a lot about the negatives around the World Cup, but there still be a lot of great soccer to watch and get excited about. It's also expected to be the final World Cup for some legends of the game,

like Lionel Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo. Let's end there. When it comes to the actual games, what are each of you going to be watching for? And for fans who still want to watch, you can't justify the headaches of going to a game. How can they still find ways to enjoy the tournament if you're not actually going to it? Let's start with Terrick, then Will, then Rachel. I think this tournament represents the end of an era. You mentioned those two gentlemen there, Ian O'Messi, Christiana Ronaldo. It's being a privilege for us to be around while they've been around.

This sport is century old, almost 100 years of the World Cup. these two guys coming together at the same time and giving us this quality is something that we may never see again. Oh, we will. Stop it. Go ahead. Just the idea of these two guys, maybe the final curtain on these guys. But then the beauty of this is this tournament gives a platform to the new generation. Who are the next ones? And for me, I'm very much looking forward to see if Lamin Yamal of Spain, Tina, major, precociously talented, already done many things.

If he steps up and dominates the World Cup, that would be incredible to see. And there are many others, Michael Alisei from France, getting Mbapé, of course, and I can go on and on and on, and I won't. But this is a, as Wilson, once the ball gets rolling, we will get captivated by this tournament. There's going to be incredible storylines, players who emerge. And for people who don't want to mortgage their house to buy ticket to Jordan versus Uzbekistan, whoever, they could just step out of your home, go into the street and enjoy this thing. Because nothing like the World Cup brings people from all over,

whether it's within the United States and the incredible diaspora you've got there, or the fans who will be traveling there. When they get together, this is a magical thing where, where humanity comes together for this one moment. And it is absolutely wonderful. If anyone was in Moscow, the night before the start of the 2018 World Cup, they would have seen an incredible site near Red Square, a parade of fans.

You walk 10 meters, 70, you see Argentinians, Brazilians, Mexicans, Egyptians going crazy about Mohammed Sala. It was something that you won't find anywhere else, And we'll have to wait another four years to see it again. So if you're in one of those towns, just open your front door, get out there, and soak it all up. And see the humanity. Oh, the humanity. Will? One thing that seems very clear that will happen from this is this thing's going to get excellent TV ratings.

And one of the reasons – and I think you're going to hear a lot of stories about, like, wow, the ratings are up from Qatar and Russia. And a lot of that will be simply because these are perfect television times. And I think that, like, the start times for these games, until the World Cup final, the biggest, most watched American soccer game ever was in 2015 in the Women's World Cup, when the U.S. won. And that was a great team full of big personalities. It was also helped out that the game literally started at 6.30 Eastern Time on a Sunday. It became like this one. And that is one of the beautiful things about the World Cup as from just from a purely not going to the game and just a consumerist sort of casually-enjured. perspective, they're going to be going on all the time. You're not going to be able to walk through

any downtown in any city in the United States or really, obviously, any city in the world, and not have there be a game on somewhere and some sort of clamor and activity happening. And I think that's one of the really, really fun things for the world. Yeah, they've done a great job. And online, too, by the way. You can consume a lot. Well, they're going to make a lot of money, Fox, aren't they? They've got these World Cups for three times less than they should have paid. So someone's walking away to the bank there, eh? I always feel so sorry for Rupert Murdoch if he's okay. You have to.

You have to. You just got to be like, this old man needs some dough. Rachel, why don't you finish him? So the U.S. is great at most sports, right? Except in this one, in men's sports. So I actually am rooting for the men's team. And, in fact, the entire U.S. Soccer Federation was in huge disarray just several years ago. You know, open warfare with their flagship women's team over this equal pay lawsuit.

you know, their president resigned over several conflicts. They now, their president is now one of the few women to head a soccer fed of soccer federation globally, Cindy Parlo-Cone, a former player on the women's team. And I would argue it's in the best shape of its life. I mean, revenues are way up. They just opened a massive training center in the Atlanta area. So the U.S. is actually on an upward arc. And, you know, this will be the final test to see if the men's team can come through.

but it's been an incredible comeback already for American men's soccer generally. All right. Any predictions who's going to win? Are any of you going to dare it? Give me? France or Spain? France or Spain?

Spain sounds right to me. Rachel. Yeah, I mean, I don't know if this has ever happened. Tar can tell me. Has the men's and women's have they ever had back-to-back similar winners? Spain is the reigning women's champion. So if Spain won the men's World Cup, too,

this would be quite the twofer. Spain. It's a good question. Yeah. Well, the U.S. has won too many and the women, so we'll have to look at for. Right. And U.S. men certainly haven't won back-to-back. So, yeah, certainly the likelihoods of Spain and following up with the women's title would be remarkable.

And another important prediction, Messi and Argentina, I think, will go out against the first good team that plays them. Wow. Ciao, Argentina. Whoa. They're going to be very mad at you right now. They're going to come in their convoy. He's right to Kara Swisher. Yes.

Anyway, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. Rachel, Will, and Terek. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Today's show was produced by Christian Castro Roussel, Michelle Aloit, Catherine Millsopp,

Madeline LaPlante, Duby, Megan Bernie, and Kaylin Lynch. Nishat Kirwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Special thanks to Aiman Waylon and Max Levine. Our engineers are Fernando Aruda and Rick Kwan, and our theme music is by Tracademics. If you're already following this show, you're watching Messy and Argentina. If not, you're watching Uzbekistan play the Democratic Republic of Congo.

Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On with Caro Swisher and hit Follow. Thanks for listening to On with Carous Swisher from Podium Media, New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Thursday with more.