On with Kara Swisher - Jennifer Welch of “I’ve Had It” Blasts Both MAGA & Centrist Dems

Episode Date: November 24, 2025

In the year since President Trump won re-election, in part, by capitalizing on sitdowns on friendly podcasts, Democrats have been looking for their own answer to the so-called “manosphere.” One of the top contenders has emerged from a very unlikely place: bright red Oklahoma. That’s where Jennifer Welch and Angie “Pumps” Sullivan started their hit show, “I’ve Had It.” They’ve interviewed some of the biggest names on the left side of the political spectrum, like former President Obama, New York Mayor-elect Zohran Mamdani, and Vermont Independent Sen. Bernie Sanders. Welch in particular has gone viral for testy exchanges with former Chicago Mayor Rahm Emanuel and New Jersey Sen. Cory Booker.  Kara and Jennifer talk about what it was like to be a liberal atheist in the Bible Belt, why Jeniffer finds centrist Democrats more frustrating than MAGA, and why she’s skeptical about Georgia Republican Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene’s recent break with Trump. They also talk about what Democrats get wrong about red states like Oklahoma, and what she thinks the party needs to do to appeal to voters outside the coasts and big cities.  Please note: The original interview for this episode was taped Friday morning, before Greene announced her decision to resign from Congress in January and Mandani met with Trump. We taped a second interview on Saturday morning to get Jennifer’s reaction to the news.  Questions? Comments? Email us at [e-mail] or find us on YouTube, Instagram, TikTok, Threads, and Bluesky @onwithkaraswisher. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I really enjoyed your book. I read it last night. Oh, good. Is it your running for office book? No, I would never. I'd rather earn my money on my back, Kara. Uh-uh. Hi, everyone, from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. This is on with Kara Swisher, and I'm Kara Swisher. If the 2024 presidential election was the year podcast-dominated legacy media, then it's easy to see why President Trump came out ahead. While Vice President Kamala Harris primarily sought out CNN town halls and sit-downs with the view, Trump was courting the manosphere in interviews with Joe Rogan and Theo Vaughn.

Since Harris's defeat, Democrats have been searching for their own Rogans and Vaughns, and one of the top contenders has emerged from an unlikely place, right-red Oklahoma. I'm talking about the podcast. I've had it. It's co-hosted by Jennifer Welch and Angie Sullivan, two white women in their 50s from the suburbs of Oklahoma City. They've interviewed the biggest names in Democratic politics like Harris, former President Barack Obama, New York Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, and New York City mayor-elect Zoran Mamdani. Welch in particular has gone viral for her combative interviews with New Jersey Democratic Senator Cory Booker and former Chicago mayor Rahm Emanuel. Jennifer Wells, Welch is my guest today. I'm excited to talk to her because she's just really a fresh voice and is a tell like it is kind of lady, and that's who I am. I think what really sets her apart is she's very genuine. She doesn't seem calculated. It's the person she is. I suspect she's the same in person as she is on the podcast, and that works really well, and people really seem to be enjoying what she and Angie are doing. All right, let's get into my interview with Jennifer Welch. Our expert question comes from her dream.

dream interview, CNN anchor Anderson Cooper. Jennifer is spicy, and she's also much more serious than you think, so don't go anywhere. Support for On with Caroushisher comes from Saks Fifth Avenue. Sacks Fifth Avenue makes it easy to holiday your way, whether it's finding the right gift or the right outfit. SACS is where you can find everything from a lovely silk scarf from Saint-Laurent for your mother or a chic leather jacket from Prada to complete your cold weather wardrobe. And if you don't know where to start, Sacks.com is customized to your personal style so you can save time shopping and spend more time just enjoying the holidays.

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Right now, when you spend $1,000 on Upwork Business Plus, you get $500 in credit. go to upwork.com slash save now and claim the offer before December 31st, 2025. Again, that's upwork.com slash Save. Scale smarter with top talent and $500 in credit. Terms and conditions apply. Support for this show comes from Odu. Running a business is hard enough. So why make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other? Introducing O-Doo, the only business offer you'll ever need. It's an all-in-one fully integrated platform that makes your work easier, CRM, accounting, inventory, e-commerce, and more.

And the best part, O-DU replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost. That's why over thousands of businesses have made the switch, so why not you? Try O-D-O-D-O-O-com. That's O-D-O-O-O-com. We taped our original interview with General on Friday morning before the love fest between New York City mayor-elect Zoran Mamdani and President Trump in the Oval Office, and before Georgia Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Green unleashed a hate fest at Donald Trump in announcing her decision to resign from Congress in January.

So we had to invite Jennifer back to get her reaction to both the meeting and the resignation, and we're going to start there before we bring you into the rest of the interview. And heads up, she has some creative nicknames. So when you hear her say kanks, she's referring to Donald Trump with the nickname Kankles McTacototits. And for J.D. Vance, the vice president, Little Smokey, is short for failed drag queen, smoky-eyed sociopath. So, Jennifer, I don't know what to say. I like your first reaction. My first reaction is that Trump has always been a disruptor, first and foremost. And the Republican midterm strategy was Zoran Mamdani is a terrorist jihadist. And he's going to be the face of the Democratic Party. Right. And secondly, Trump likes winners. He likes people that win. And he was able to see the political optics of a man who consistent, consistently beat the establishment, consistently beat the millionaire and billionaire class.

And his political instincts to ride those coattails were sharper than Chuckles and Hakeem's. Right, right. And why do you, did he decide that in the moment? Or because, you know, before it, he was called, they were calling him communists or on Mondani. I think Mandani, you know, it's interesting because the progressives are sort of attacking Mamdani a little bit. Like, oh, he went in and talked to him. I'm like, are you kidding? He just saved him. health care. He'd just save New York. He just, like, I thought he was respectful, which I think is appropriate. This is the President of the United States, whether you like him or not. And secondly, he pushed back, and then Trump pushed back on his behalf. That was sort of mind-blowing. Like, oh, it's okay. Just call me a fascist. You know, it was, it was, I don't want to get too

giddy because I'm also like, this guy in three weeks could be invading New York, right? 100%. Right. I think that Zoran Mamdani got the psychological file on Canks and it is go in and flatter him and I bet that Zoran went in and said we have a lot of things in common. There are people

that wore shirts that said MAGA for Mom Donnie. People that voted for you voted for me. We both love New York. We're both from Queens and you helped build New York to what it is and I want to make it more affordable for everyone. That's why people

voted for you. And I interviewed Zoron during the campaign in person in New York. He has megawatt charisma, personality. It's intoxicating. And his decency and his goodness radiates off of him. I mean, a once-in-a-generation-type candidate. Right. So Trump was like, it was so interesting because you remember Elon standing next the desk, like sort of Darth Vader. And then you have this image, which was within a short amount of time. What do you think, you tweeted me about Stephen Miller? Like, what are the rest of them doing right now? Tell me the behind the scenes of that.

I bet Stephen and Katie Miller are on full-blown suicide watch. Yeah. I bet Christy Nome just doesn't know what to do. I bet it is jealous, party of one. Your table is now available for our little smoky-eye sociopath, J.D. Vance. he disrupted the entire thing, both the establishment Democrats, Elise Tophonix bid for governor. The ADL's complaint about Zoran Mamdani, which is rooted in Islamophobia. It's just, it was wild. I couldn't believe it.

Right. And he did it largely because this is a winner. This is a, you know, I predicted it. Let me just say. I thought so, only because he's so handsome and such a winner that this is what attracts Trump. Again, I watch The Apprentice. I know what he likes. He switches on a dime to people. But most of all, everything that was consistent was winner, handsome, great hair. Like, that seemed to, oh, you know, he is great hair. No, it's true. Carrey, your instincts on that are so true.

It boils down to he saw the imagery that he could be photographed next to a winner and how politically savvy he was to see that. I went to Zoran Mamdani's Victory Party, and I was so shocked that Chuckles and Hakeem, both, you know, New Yorkers were not on the stage riding this victory's coattails that their political instincts were so off. Right, right, because of reasons that weren't going to help them with voters, right? So speaking of voters, and I want to get to Marjorie, this will help Trump because he's in the basement. I mean, the numbers are so bad. To me, this will help him. I completely agree. I think that Zoran Mamdani's race was the canary in the coal mine.

Can the people stand up against big money? And there's the richest city in the world, the richest people in the world, colluded together to try to get this man to not win. And he didn't just win. He kicked their asses. And his affordability message is so on point right now. Not last night's Bill Maher, but the one before last Friday. He tried to do a joke about Zoran Mamdani being the face of the Democratic Party.

Crickets in the audience. He's popular. His policies are very, very popular. And I do think that Canks shine in that little penny and trying to get some of that glow on him might help him a bit with independence. Right, with independence, because he looks like he can deal, right? as opposed to being everything else. But of course it set out like a firestorm within MAGA because they were already mad at them about the Saudis.

They were already mad at them about a number of things, right, in the Epstein files. It certainly takes a focus off the Epstein files. This is something that actually does compared to other things. But then we have Marjorie Taylor Green making this announcement. Thoughts? First initial thoughts. My first initial thought was it reminded me totally of Sarah Palin.

When Sarah Palin was the vice president, presidential candidate with John McCain, and she was, you know, in the lower 48, and it's all glam and glitz, and she does all these media tours, and then she goes back to Alaska, and then she resigns. And so Marjorie just did this huge press blitz, and now she's going back to Congress. And it's interesting. I think the lesson that the Democrats messaging-wise can take from this is the left has hated Marjorie Taylor Green ever since she's started running ever since she bullied David Hogg. Yeah, Jewish space lasers. And all of that stuff. And she's never been scared for her life until the Wright started bullying her. Right,

right, exactly. Yeah. So you think it's out of fear. You know, AOC immediately said, oh, she got her pension. She's going to get her pension. She made, I think, $25 million with the allegations in stock trades. And, you know, it was interesting because here's a poem. This is something that was online. I loved all the online stuff, though. Were you, like, eating every bit of it up last night? Injecting it into my veins, Kara. It was so good. So funny. So he wrote, these people are insane, but also good riddons, but also good for her for standing up for herself, but also sheesh. That was a poem you just wrote. Like, that's how I felt. Like, it was, it was, let me, let me play her resignation announcement, too, because I, I, people, she said this isn't 3D chess,

this, I'm not up to something. Let's listen. I do not want my sweet district to have to endure a hurtful and hateful primary against me by the president that we all fought for, only to fight and win my election while Republicans will likely lose the midterms. And in turn, be expected to defend the president against impeachment after he hatefully dumped tens of millions of dollars against me and tried to destroy me. It's all so absurd and completely unsurious. I refuse to be. a battered wife, hoping it all goes away and gets better. Whoa, pulling out the battered wife. It's a populist tone. She complains about both parties, how they're broken, not doing enough to help the,

there was many more. She put out a lot of stuff, was she was up all night, right, crafting this stuff, I guess. She makes it clear she's still opposed to immigration, access to abortion and trans rights. There's no change there. Trump said this was great news for the country. It's great. Steve Bannon told the New York Times, the House is not big enough for her ambition's personality. We haven't seen or heard the last of her. This, you know, she had several key quotes. I'd love you to respond to them. Loyalty should be a two-way street,

standing up for American women who were raped at 14 trafficked and used by rich, powerful men should not result in being called a traitor and threatened by the President of the United States whom I fought for. You know, she went on and on and on, and this battered wife thing.

I mean, thoughts and what's happening here? I've long thought that she was going to run for higher office. And I don't think it's Senate. I think it's a president. And you just told me something I hadn't heard. I heard it for the first time just now that Steve Bannon, that quote that he just said about the Congress isn't big enough for her ambitions. And when I saw Marjorie with Steve Bannon, I thought to myself,

Steve Bannon was the brains, the Carl Rove, if you will, behind Kanks's ascension. And Steve Bannon loves populism. He loves conspiracy theories. And Marjorie Taylor Green is playing that playbook. perfectly right now. What does she do? What is the next thing she does? Goes on CNN, gets a contract to be on cable. Yeah, I think she continues the rebrand because she has quite a bit to do. And I anticipate that she is going to offer an off-ramp to Republican voters who felt betrayed by Trump, who are in financial ruins, but still package it up with, we're nicer, but we still hate trans people.

we're still America first. We still need to deport, you know, immigrant children. And Republicans are comfortable in that zone. They're comfortable where you can give them a little bit of compassion with a little bit of bigotry. And zero Epstein. That's right. Possible. And zero Epstein because she's, you know, fought against that. I do think that fight is genuine in that regard. I don't think she's taking advantage. I mean, she is also. Don't you think it's wild, Kara, that she ascended because she was a Qan on her because she was against the elite cabal of pedophiles, and then she gets inside the death star, and she finds out the elite cabal of pedophiles are the people that she campaigned for. Oh, no, it's a movie. It's a movie. Totally. It is. So what is her next move? Does she fade

away for a little bit? Because one of the things about, as you know, about the modern media environment, which I think Mamdani and Trump do well, is to constant. be present, like, in people's minds. So if you were advising her, what would you say to her? I know. I'm sorry. No, okay. All right. If I were advising her, I would tell her to move quickly and have a book that put where she took accountability for everything. Think about Barack Obama. Yes, I did cocaine. Yes, I smoked marijuana. He got ahead of it. So a book where she basically deprograms herself. She can have a ghostwriter. write it while she stays in media. I agree with you. She needs to be ubiquitous on podcasts,

on cable news. She needs to blow up her social media. But I think she needs to put it in writing to get on offense of all of her former crazy positions and offer a lot of well-meaning people in rural America and suburban America who their only piece of culture are their churches and offer them an off-ramp that we can still be compassionate and we got sucked into this cult and we were lied to by Trump. But our party is still here and our values are still here and we get to still hate immigrants together, but just more compassionately. Kind of like a George W. Bush compassionate conservatism thing. And then she runs for president against. Yes. Smoky eye. Smoky. What's it? Little smoky. Little smoky. And what is that last thing? Where does this put him?

because you can see Cruz working with this or any of the others. And obviously, Elise Tophonic is screwed, and Kathy Hokel put a knife in her back really beautifully. She's full of shit. I kind of like Kathy Hokel these days. But what happens to these different stars? Because it would be J.D. Vance. There's Josh Hawley.

What does Vance do? Because it really does put him on his – he's totally bought into everything with Trump, so much so that he seems like a – like a suck-up, you know, and Mandani somehow got Trump to pose in front of FDR, the greatest socialist president, right? The one who, that was, I was like, I'm glad people did notice that. I was like, it were in front.

Karen, did you see where he posted on true social a solo? A glamour shot of Zoran posing by himself? I know. This is a crush. And also with the back, did you see the back in looking over the, I guess, the Trump patio? I don't know what's back there now. Yes. But like the two of them, like he's.

handing over the rains. That's, that photo was, son, this patio, this Mar-a-Lago patio, shall be yours someday. And you could hear the bubble above Zarn Mandani, this will be gone someday. But that was like a son-father kind of photo, which was, I'm sure that Trump boys were just weeping. It was wild. I don't know if Trump is calculating like somehow legacy stuff. I mean, he's a lame duck. You know, and I go both ways. dictators think they're going to cling on to power forever, and they never see them ever leaving, nor is there any plan? There's no succession plan. Or is he kind of colluding with, not colluding that Zoron is participating in, but optically saying, okay, you know, there's room in America for all of these places. But as it pertains to the people, Moses Mike Grander Johnson, Little Smokey, the ones that are rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic with Canks, Kara. these people's careers will be over. I just do not see that there is oxygen.

We're 10, 11 months in to this shit show and the wreckage and the carnage already. I don't see that the electorate is even remotely going to allow for any successor that remain loyal to the cult once biology takes care of him or the term limit. Right. So he's getting out before them.

He's such a, he is fleeing his ship with this. That's what I thought. I'm like, look what he just did. Like, I liked him slightly more. I know it sounds crazy. I don't like him very much at all. But when he looked up at him, it was, I was like, wow, this guy will do anything to reinvent himself. It was, somebody put on Twitter yesterday, I haven't seen Trump this happy since the McDonald's buffet at the White House.

and it was a picture of Trump in front of all the McDonald's buffet care, and he's like, granting ear to ear, but the photo of him looking up adoringly at Zoron, that's wild. I mean, I don't think, and you heard Fox News when they were giddy. They went back that one, I can't remember the guy's name, but he's the one who suggested we should euthanize Kill Mead, we should euthanize homeless people.

After he sees it, it clicks to him, and he's giddy, and he's giggling. He said, well, J.D. Vance probably sure is so. jealous. Even Fox is throwing little smoky under the bus, Kara. Yeah, yeah. Smoky is repugnant, so I could see that. I could see that. As you know, Trump knows political popularity, and he just goes right to it. I just am like, I didn't think the first person off the ship would be the captain, but I guess so. Captain does not go down with this ship. That is what I thought. I was like, he's the rest of them, and he like sails away to his future and stuff. He's got to pay any price whatsoever. And it does knock Epstein off for a second, although that's not going to go away. And let me be

clear with people, he might still invade New York with National Guard, even though he's losing everywhere from a legal perspective. But he's still Donald Trump. Let's be clear. And you never know where that's going. And all I thought is the meds, everyone's meds have kicked in this week in some fashion. I'm sure Stephen Miller had some physician on speed dial immediately. I mean, because you picture ketchup being thrown when bad things happen at the White House. And I thought about Stephen Miller, just, I mean, just completely on suicide watch, full-blown suicide watch. Because this is the remedy. Multiculturalism, embrace different faiths. He embraced Zoron in such a loving, adoring way.

This is the remedy to all of the white supremacy in which Stephen Miller views his plans for the United States. Okay, last question. What do the Dems do now? You've talked about what do they do at this point? Because he managed to, like, sort of attack the Republicans and the Democrats by doing this. And whatever you think of, Marjor Green, she's out of his hair, right, for now, at least. I mean, she's out of his hair completely. The Democrats have got to watch Rokana.

He is outflanking every single one of them all the time. He's everywhere. He's on podcast. He's on the news. We need our Democratic establishment to quit focusing on focus groups. It's not focus groups anymore. That is an old, antiquated way of learning about people. You can learn about people by simply listening to podcasts, looking at comments.

And the Democrats are going to have to embrace every single Democratic candidate that wins, whether it's a centrist in Virginia or a Democratic socialist in New York. But you know what's interesting? This tells you how bad Hakeem Jeffrey's political instincts are. While Trump is crispy cream glazing zoron in the oval, Hakeem is voting to condemn socialism. Just the bullshit performative stuff that they do in Congress that nobody gives a shit about. And Hakeem is doing that, and he's constantly falling into their traps, the Republicans, and he gets outflanked all the time. And this time, he gets outflanked by a fascist who Zoran put on such a charm offensive. Trump said, it's okay.

Go ahead. Call me a fascist. Zorn's like, call me a despot. Yeah, okay. And I'm like, yeah, because they both look good. I hate to say it, but they both look good. And you're right, Hakeem Jeffries. I was like, are you kidding me?

I already think those things are dumb. Anyway, Jennifer, I'm so glad you came back because I was like, I must speak with them about these things. Yes. So I don't know what's going to happen Monday, but let me just say it's, the only thing I thought of as I was reading all this one thing after the next it was a dinner was, you can't go to dinner, first of all,

was we are actually in a simulation and some really bored teenager from the future is like going, oh, here's what I'm going to do today. That's the first time I was like, this is not real. This cannot be real. But it is. It was wild and a much-needed salve for our tormented brains and hearts of what happens every day being an American

and the instability that we feel on a daily basis. Yeah, you felt good for a second, like we can get along, I guess. Even a fascist and a socials can get along. But like you said, Kara, this could all switch with one truth social post the minute we click not to record any longer. If someone else gets to him and then tries to convince him. Anyway, I'm eager to hear your show about what all the Oklahomans think of this. You're there for the next week. So I'm sure it'll be interesting to see their reaction to all this.

Anyway, thank you so much, Jennifer. I really appreciate you coming back. Thank you, Kara. Okay, let's get into it. Jennifer, thanks for coming on on. Thanks for having me, Kara. I think you're very cool. And so I feel cooler being on your podcast.

Oh, stop it. You're the cool one right now. You're in like the center of the red hide. Did you expect this success so quickly? No, I did not. We originally started just shit talking, you know, stuff that is a grievance to anybody. Toddlers are assholes. That was the one.

They are. I mean, you love them and they're important, but God, they can be. assholes. They just had one of those encounters this morning. That's why. Over shoes. As you start seeing what's happening politically, I've always been a diehard political junkie and rather outspoken about it. And I can't help but for these opinions to come out of me. And so I thought maybe it would be kind of a niche political thing, not that we would have this type of platform. Popularity. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, You and your co-host, Angie Sullivan, who's not here.

How dare her. I have two podcasts. There's, she's doing some with her kids. There's a flagship show I've had it, and also the shorter daily podcasts, IHIPP News. You've got about 4 million followers across all your platforms,

and you've added more than a million subscribers to YouTube since the election. So Democrats have started to realize that they need to be talked to the voters on independent media, but there's a lot of hesitation and fear, and it seems like they still prefer legacy media. I keep saying my podcast is bigger than your show.

Like, I'm sorry, I mean, you know what I mean? So talk about your pitch to sort of leery Democrats. They've always talked about creating a, you know, a left Joe Rogan, and here you are. Like, they wouldn't ever imagine that that's what you are in some ways. Well, I mean, I don't think I'm the left Joe Rogan because although I liked trash talk, I don't traffic in conspiracy theories, which I think is really, really dangerous. But I do think that... You know their point.

Their point is powerful. Yes. I do think that Democrats have establishment Democrats have the appearance right now of being a conservative party because they are preserving old tactics that they've used forever. Focus groups, disciplined messaging, word salad, platitudes, and corporate media allows them to go on and non-answer things and then they go to the next question and the next question. And they're not evolutionary in following the changing media landscape. The audience. Right. And people want to know the people that deliver their news. They want to know something about me personally. They want to know something about you personally. With these phones, we've gotten a little nosier. And the same goes for politicians. We want to see them off the cuff. If they missed up, no big deal. And so some politicians are great. They come on. I've noticed the politicians like an example, Rokana. He doesn't take any corporate pack money. He'll come on any time. we don't have to have a, you know, what are we going to talk about beforehand? He's just completely deliberated. Yeah, he's promiscuous.

I joke with him about it. I said, you have to be promiscuous in this. And speaking of being on your back, you know, you have to really be everywhere, essentially. Yeah, I agree. And I think it's a great way for Democrats to evolve. And if they missed up to be able to embrace, yeah, I was on there. We were spitballing. What I really mean is this.

And look at how the Republicans slash MAGA movement have evolved in that record. Look at how far they've moved in that regard. And when I think about back in the day, it was the appearance that the liberals controlled all of the news. So the Wright built this massive media ecosystem. Yeah, they were left out. Yeah. And now you see that the Trump, oligarch, friends, billionaire buddies are buying up all of the mainstream media. And we're the left out ones now.

And so I'm so happy to collaborate with any podcast. pro-democracy person on the left, because I see us all as allies that are messaging to a part of the electorate that is hurting, that feels targeted, that is grieving what they thought the promise of America is, not to mention the financial anxiety that so many Americans are struggling from. And I see, and you probably see this with your audience, we're building communities. And it's so important to feel connected when you see so much injustice. Well, it's a parissocial relationship in a weird way, but it isn't. It isn't that it's one way because we just finished this seven city and seven-day tours with Pivot. And the community was

what the critical part. We sold out everything. And a lot of regular media people call me and look, how did you do that? I'm like, how did you not do this? Like you're sitting in these airless studios broadcasting essentially corporate media and what the, especially with the Democrats. I've said it's boring. It's not interesting. It's not. But how do you get them to understand that independent media is where audiences? I think they kind of vaguely get it, and then they create these lab rhetorries. Like, we'll give $100,000 to figure it out. I'm like, it's already figured out.

It's not, I don't know. It's very frustrating when I'm talking to a lot of them. Yeah, I've experienced the same thing. When I start, when we have a politician on and I get an email from one of their aids that wants the talking points, I'm like, this is not going to be that great of a guest because you need to be able to come in and have a conversation with our audience open to anything, just like you and I, we don't have talking points before I came on here. I don't know what you're going to ask me. And that's what garners trust for you with your audience and for my audience that comes

over here to be introduced to you if they don't know you yet, which I can't imagine they wouldn't. But they need to liberate themselves, and I think it goes like this, if they could liberate themselves from corporate donations, they could liberate themselves conversationally. They're so inhibited and they walk on eggshells. And that's why the Democratic establishment, to me, feels like the party of preservation. We want to preserve the way it's always been. We want to preserve the status quo. Instead of evolving and becoming completely unobstructed conversationally, and in turn,

they'll become a lot more likable and electable. So you talked about who's getting it right. Who's getting it wrong? I mean, whenever I see a social media thing by either Chuck Schumer or a Hakeem-Jephym. I want to just cringe. It's like massive, like, what are you doing, you know, unless he really leaned into grandpa, right? I wouldn't mind that as much as what's happening. It's like being grandpa and then pretending you're not grandpa. That really irritates me. But how do they get it wrong? And who else is getting it right? So I think the people that are getting it wrong are obviously Jeffrey Schumer. Corey Booker came onto our podcast and completely misstepped. did he do? So I asked him, what have you had it with? And he said he'd had it with corporate PAC donations. And I said, well, don't you take money from AIPAC? And then the defenses started coming up. I asked him a very simple yes or no question. Do you think Benjamin Netanyahu's a war

criminal? And the answer to that question is yes. And he couldn't answer it. He kept going on and on and on. And we kind of got into it. And if you think about it, there's been three missteps from establishment Democrats on podcasts surrounding this issue. Gavin Newsom was asked about APAC, and he says the word, interesting, interesting, interesting, nine times you counted out. Pete Buttigieg, who is a gifted orator, kind of faceplants on Podsave, and Corey Booker face planted on our podcast, and it went completely viral. And so I think that, again, it goes back to when you're beholden to very, very,

few, this is a very transparent media platform. You get exposed very quickly if you start BSing. The bullshit meter is instantly detectable. And so I think it's good that the ones that are getting it wrong right now, come on, see what the base is saying. Quit focus grouping. Get yourself out into the American public and see how it goes and change and evolve. And as a base, we have to be somewhat forgiving if they misstep and come back and clean up because as much as Chuckles and Hawkeem drive me crazy, they are the leaders that we have. They are who we have. And so I'm cheering for them to succeed. So if they can clean up their kind of embarrassing, cringy posts and become more relatable, I'm going to cheerlead for them. But I'm also not going to be a sycophant for them

and just go along with, boy, they wrote a strongly worded letter. Go get them. Right. Strongly, that was chuckles yesterday. Strongly worded letter. I really mean it. And meanwhile, Trump's like knocking down the White House. Let's talk a little about them in just a second, but let's talk about your background. You were born and raised in Oklahoma and lived there up until last month. But you were an odd person out, a liberal atheist in the conservative Bible Belt. Talk about your political isolation as a young person and recently as an adult with kids during the Trump era. Yeah, so I was always the skunk at the garden party in the Bible Belt. I was raised by atheists. My mother is a voracious reader, learner. We always had the most stimulating conversations. How'd they get there? So my mother, born in Dallas, Texas, and she had a very mentally ill mother, probably borderline personality disorder. And her mother was,

was really cruel to her. And my mother was around seven years old and she lost this little purse and she lost it at church. And my mother just prayed and prayed and prayed. God, please help me find this purse. You know how mean she's going to be to me. This can be terrible. This can be terrible. This can be terrible. Lo and behold, her prayers went unanswered and she never found the purse. She paid for it for years because her mother would be the type of person that would bring it up over and over and over and just browbeat her for it. And at her young age in that kind of Dallas evangelical Christian world, she just sniffed it out that it wasn't real. So then she started taking the bus to the library when she was a teenager and just reading about religion

and all of this stuff. And she, at a very young age, became an atheist and never bought into any of it. And growing up in my house, because when you live in the Bible Belt and your peers are evangelical Christians, their number one goal is not helping the poor, not helping the sick, it is to recruit you. Recruit, recruit, recruit. Right. Yeah. So it was really difficult for me sometimes as a teenager because all of my friends were really, really, really religious. And I'm talking like spiritual warfare, I would go to slumber parties, and a girl that I was at the slumber party would say, I can feel the presence of a demon in the corner of the room. That would be you.

Was it a K-pop demon? Probably. Anyway. But in all of that just seems so insane. So I would. So why did she stay there? Why did your parents stay there? Well, I mean, my dad had business there, and my mother is not super social. Her best friend is

cuddled up with a book. My dad does a lot of business in Belgium and Holland. He flies racing pigeons, which is kind of an old, old sport, but it's very, very popular in Belgium and Holland. Very, very popular. And my dad was the world's largest seller and breeder of racing pigeons, so he needed to live on a lot of land because he didn't want, you couldn't have neighbors. Those raising pigeons need a lot of space. They need a lot of space. And so they would go to Europe multiple times a year. My dad lived over there a lot of the time. They were from Dallas. Both came from working class, middle class families, entrepreneurs, and they became very successful. We became an upper middle class family, but moving wasn't ever in the cards for them. Right. This is where they were. And so you were

subjected to that, but raised by your dad also was not religious, correct? Correct. So here you are stuck here in the middle of nowhere, essentially, for you, from your perspective, doing the same thing, reading, being aware of this. Did you ever think about becoming evangelical? Yes. So my very first boyfriend, his name was Sean, and I was just madly in love with him, as every teenager is with their first boyfriend. And Sean's dad was a retired Southern Baptist preacher. And Sean's mother was very concerned that he was dating an infidel. So she bought me a precious moments Bible. Now, I've seen that. Yeah. I have religious relatives. Go ahead. So I started to read it. My mother was just horrified. I mean, just like I cannot believe

the nerve of this woman, Jennifer, to buy you a Bible. That's just unbelievable. And Sean's dad was retired, but he was only like in his mid-40s. And he just didn't have his life together. they were broke. The mom had to go back to work. And the whole thing, I mean, they weren't very good representatives of the evangelical. Right. So my mother was very fascinated by Sean's dad and his kind of economic decline, his mental decline, all of these things. So my mother spent, this is before the internet, spent time at the library and comes back, she's Jennifer, she's real dramatic. She's, darling, I've diagnosed Sean's father. I believe he's suffered from religious addiction, here are these symptoms. And she's printed this article about religious addiction,

and she's printed all the symptoms, and he had every single one of them. So in every turn that I tried to maybe try to fit in, if you're not indoctrinated, it's a really hard pill to swallow the creation story and all of that. If that doesn't enter your psyche, young. No, my grandmother, on my dad's side, they're all very religious. And my aunt in particular was very religious and always sent me stuff. But we were sent over the summer. I have 10 cousins when we stayed at my grandmother's to Bible camp. And my mom is Catholic, and she was horth. She's like, why are they sending you to Baptist? But it was really fascinating. You know, I found it riveting, and they kept trying to get me. And it just never stuck. Neither did the Catholics, by the way,

and they're much more of a soft cell, right? And at one point, when my aunt died, I just thought of this. You know, they did the service. It was very Jesus. They very, I was in West Virginia and like, fine, this is their way and stuff like that. And I, you know, I sat there, I put up, I was like, okay, more Jesus, more Jesus. And then we get to the cafeteria where you're going to eat the food afterwards. And I was really hungry. It was a long service. And then the pastor who's standing next to me, again, I didn't realize, starts doing more of it. And I said, oh, for goodness sake, have we had enough Jesus? And I said it out loud. And I was like, and then I go, never enough, Jesus.

Like, it was terrible. But when you met Angie, your co-host, she was a conservative evangelical. In the book YouTube published earlier this year, Life is a Lazy Susan of Shit Sandwiches, and may I say, the finest title in the land. You wrote about having to put up with a hard boundary to get her to stop recruiting you to the church. And she obviously isn't conservative anymore,

but you converted her, I guess. But in the early days, you bonded over other things, your kids, your difficult marriages. And also, it wasn't weird to be friends with people who voted differently than you then. But had you met Angie during the Trump era, would either of those things have outweighed your political differences? Do you see that happening? Probably, it would have, because it was, when I met Angie, we were in the exact same season. We both married to attorneys.

Both of these attorneys had a lot of interpersonal problems. We had kids the exact same age, and we had fantastic chemistry, and I really enjoyed her. but sometimes she would recruit me so heavily to go to Bible study and wouldn't respect the boundary because in her, and I'm not picking on her. What would you say? Well, like here's a prime example, Kara. We went to take the kids to toddler gymnastics, who's always trying to run the toddlers out, so they'll go to sleep at night, right? Yes, I get it.

So she had asked me to go to Bible study. I said, no, pick me up after Bible study. We'll take the kids to the pizza buffet, and then we'll take them to gymnastics. She picks me up. This is a lawyer, and she pumps us smart. And she said, did you know that people used to live to be 950 years old? And I go, Angie, that never fucking happened. It never happened. People live longer now because of two things, filtered water and modern medications. Those are the two reasons we live longer.

Nobody ever lived to be 950. She said, well, there wasn't disease in the Garden of Eden. And I said, according to whom? She said, well, the Bible. And it was just, just this insanity. And sometimes after something like that happened, all of my friends in Oklahoma, I had found solace in a gaggle of gay men because they had been kind of picked on and shamed by the same group of evangelicals that had been targeting me. And I'm a decorator and light clothes and, you know, gay men and I just get along perfectly. Yeah, I have a friend in Tennessee, same thing. Yeah. And so sometimes I would pull away from her a little bit because the overt religiosity was so much, but she was so good and finally respected the boundary.

And we never got into it. We never had an adversarial conversation about it. Never. It was all very civilized, but I would just slowly start dropping hints. Like, I remember we went to the dinosaur museum in Norman, Oklahoma at the University of Oklahoma. And we took our kids and we're looking at the dates of how long ago these dinosaur bones lived. And I said, isn't that something that this predates the Garden of Eden? And she would kind of chuckle a little bit. So we kind of had this tongue and cheek thing back and forth.

But she called me about three years ago. And I'll never forget it. I was sitting in my interior design office and she called me and she said, Jennifer, I need to tell you something really important I've been talking to my therapist about. And Angie's never dramatic like this. And I was like, okay, what is it? And she said, after my dad died, I just don't think that he's in heaven. And I said, you don't think he's in heaven because he's in hell, or you don't think he's in heaven because you don't believe in heaven. And she said, I don't believe in heaven.

And she started crying because of the grief associated with that. And I just comforted her and said, you know, I love you. I know this has been a huge part of your life, you know, are you, what do you think? She said, I just think so much of this has been bullshit. I did everything I was supposed to do my whole life. I did everything right. And prayer, she was a good little girl and all of the things. And it was just like the title of our book, A Shit Sandwich.

And so I called my mother after this and I told her because my mother would always say, Jennifer, she's in her Dallas accent. She'd say, Jennifer, I think Angie's just darling. but as you all age, she'll become more religious, and I'm sure that you're, you know, go a separate way. So I told my mother that Angie had been in the process, unbeknownst to me, of deconstructing her faith with her psychotherapist. And my mother was so great. She said, Jennifer, you need to be really supportive because there's a lot of grief involved in this. Like, she's grieving. It's like a death. It is. It is. Yeah, it's a really interesting thing, especially because it's critically important. And I have a lot of respect. My grandmother went to Mass every day, a Catholic. And my aunt

was the loveliest person you could meet, but almost constantly trying to recruit. You know, it was a really interesting thing. And at one point, she said, Jesus died for you. And I said, I didn't ask him. I was joking, obviously. But it was hard. And it definitely gave her comfort and the same thing with my grandmother, which is why I was respectful of it. And actually, I was confirmed.

You know, I did the whole thing, the First Holy Communion, the First Holy Confession. But the day I was confirmed, I walked out of that church at 12, 13 years old. I never walked back in since. We'll be back in a minute. Support for this show comes from Odu. Running a business is hard enough. So why make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other? Introducing Odu.

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You and Andy launched the I've had a podcast in 2022. And as you said, it didn't start off overly political, but very much became one. The left-wing Twitch streamer Hassan Piker called I've had it the most radical progressive podcast in North America. And that's saying a lot from Hassan. As the show became more popular, you're still taking your son to basketball games. You're interacting with a lot of parents in Oklahoma probably may not know about it or think you're a bad person. You're running your interior design business. Why did you start it and what impact did it have on your lives in Oklahoma as it started to blow up? You know, it didn't have a whole lot of impact on our lives in Oklahoma. Oklahoma City is an exact microcosm of the whole United States

electorate. We voted in our city just one percentage more red than we did blue. And so you have, and you know this from your family and having people in red states. If you're a blue dot in a red state, you're built a little different. You're a tough style of liberals. So I have a lot of fabulous progressive friends in Oklahoma. And I had this, you know, I still have the same friends now that I did before the podcast. Now, sometimes at basketball games, I would hear parents that I knew were triple trumpers, that I knew were megachurchers, would say something like, I was like, I'm sorry, I missed the last game. I was out of town. They would say, where were you? And I'd say, oh, it's in New York. And they would say, were you scared? Are you okay? And I knew it was an immediate

Fox News. But in general terms, people are pretty polite. Nobody has ever said something, to my face, disparaging in Oklahoma. Oklahoma's are very friendly people. I think a lot of the vitriol we see are keyboard warriors more than anything. But it really didn't change my life in Oklahoma much, but here's one thing. A lot of people, a lot of women, a lot of men that really surprised me that I thought for sure were Republicans, come up and they whisper, keep doing what you're doing. I love every bit of it.

Wow. When you were there. But you moved to Manhattan, that's scary, terrifying place of wonder and fantasticness after your youngest son started college in Los Angeles. But in your book, you talked about feeling really conflicted about leaving there. You cited your parents and your friends, these friends you're talking about as a reason for staying. To what extent are you worried that doing a podcast from New York will change how people receive it? Because I think one of the most appealing things it was that it wasn't coming from the coastal media bubbles of Washington, D.C., or New York City or Los Angeles, that was something new. talk about that move so i had always wanted to i longed to live in a big city every time i would

leave oklahoma city and i love oklahoma city but every time i would leave right because everything's up to date there totally no it's gone about as far as they could go and i just would i just felt like god i really want i really want to live in a big city and there's this stereotype that uh is thrust upon women so many things are thrust upon us that we have to, rolls we have to fill. And one of them is that when you're an empty nester, you're just sent off to the pasture, your eggs are no longer good, and you're supposed to be somewhat depressed with, you know, your chickens out of the nest, et cetera, et cetera. And I thought, you know what, I'm going to rent an apartment in New York for a year. Why not?

Why not have a mid-life gap year? Why not do it? Why do I have to do what society has put on me? We started a new career, midlife. Why can't I sign a lease for a year and see if I like it or not? I might end up running back to Oklahoma City. I may end up staying and extending it. But why not try to do something different? And I've been up here for six weeks now, and I love it. I absolutely love it.

I'm heading. Where are you living? What part of the city? Chelsea. Oh, fantastic. Oh, again. Yeah. And I brought my dogs, my French bulldogs up here,

because I'm happiest in their company. And it's just been, my husband is going back and forth. He's a criminal defense attorney, and our marriage is very battle-tested. He's, I supported him through his efforts to get sober, and he's been so supportive of me. He's like, it's your turn. And we finally have a big kid relationship. Yeah. And so that's been really cool.

What do you miss about Oklahoma City? Tennis. I play tennis every day. You can play tennis. There's some fantastic. Haven't you seen. I mean, there are tennis courts in New York. They're so expensive and difficult to get.

In Oklahoma City, I can go every day on my lunch hour, podcasting or designing. I would go and play tennis, and there's just something very therapeutic. I'm not that good at it either. But I'd hit with a pro, grunt as I hit the ball, pretend like I'm, you know, a professional, and I'm nowhere near that. But I exercise every day. I miss the ease, no traffic. Yeah, get into the car. which you can move about. But in general, I think my personality type, I'm better suited

in a big multicultural city. What's been so cool, Kara, yesterday I'm walking to the gym and this guy on a bike, brown-skinned, I don't know, Latino, Arabic, or whatever, he turns his bike around and comes, he goes, hey, lady, lady, I've had it, lady. And this happens like four or five times a day. And he said, can I get a selfie? And I said, yes. And he grabbed my hand, and he said, thank you for fighting for us. It means everything. And I just think that's really cool. I get stopped like that a lot. Yeah. I was just at the hardware store three times. It was really interesting. A lesbian at a hardware store. I love a hardware store. Oh, yeah, I know. I'm not even going to pretend. It's not. It's a cliche. But it's true. It's fair. But I don't like sports.

Okay. You know, I'm just keeping guessing. Keep and guessing. But let's talk about the podcast. The tone is, you know, blunt, irreverent, which I think you're exactly the way you are, which is why it works. It's genuine. There's a lot of swearing, which I enjoy. And you have fantastic nicknames for Republicans. President Trump is Kankles Mick Taco Tits, Kanks, for short. I actually like Kanks better. I don't know why. House Speaker Mike Johnson is Moses Mike Grindr Johnson? I'm so good. It's funny. Do you care about turning off conservatives or moderate women who might be opened reconsidering people like Andy? Is there? There's an old expression that you catch more flies with honey than vinegar, but you're catching lots of flies with vinegar. I mean, how do you come up with these names and how do you, how do you, they seem very natural. So I'm not, it's not a stunt. This is not, I'm a feeling you've made nicknames for lots of people over the many years. They came, we don't, we have a couple of talking points when we podcast, but we speak extemporaneously.

And those just came up in the moment of filming. And, you know, Cangles McTacot Tits, and then another episode, I shortened it to Canks, and I said just for spite. And Moses Mike Grinder-Johnson, he was originally Moses, Mike, because there's this video of him talking about becoming speaker of the house where he says, God woke him up in the middle of the night and said, hey, buddy, wake up, you're going to be Moses. And I'm like, we're acting like this is normal. This is crazy that he thinks he heard the voice of God and that God told him he was Moses. And then, of course, you know, there are a lot of grinder allegations about him, and so I threw that one in because I really love to just browbeat him. As far as turning off conservative women or moderate women, no, I'm not concerned about that because I know these women. And this is the Democrats' fools errand that they think that they can get these people to change their votes instead of investing in their base.

And if you're ever going to get these people to like you, it is going to be by being authentic. and getting on offense and get off of defense, get completely off of defense. Offensively, we should be saying to these women that potentially I could offend. You're concerned about trans people? I'm concerned about the Republicans Party obsession with trans people. Y'all talk about it all the time. I've never seen such trans-obsessed people. And I wish that we would be more offensive in our strategy. And I felt like, and I love common. but I felt like she was going to lose when she started trotting around with Liz Cheney. That's when I first looked at Pumps and I said, this is a problem.

These women are never going to vote for her, ever. We know these ladies. They're never going to flip because of Liz Cheney. And so I don't worry about that. And I think it's therapeutic to shit talk these bullies. Yeah, I agree. I make fun of people all the time. And is there a new name you're cooking up?

Is there, do you have a, do you have other names for Trump? No, Kanks is really stuck. I do call J.D. Vance, the failed drag queen, smoky-eye sociopath, and now I've shortened that to Little Smokey. You know, because he was a failed, yeah, oh, couch, but he was a failed drag queen, and I think it's important to point that out. There's the photographs of he just wasn't good at drag. Yeah, no, good eyes, though.

Speaking of going on the, I got to give it to him, you got to give it to him, good eyes. You don't hold back against Democrats either. We talked about your viral moment with Corey Booker. You went viral for pushing back hard on former Chicago Mayor Rahm Emanuel, which I love to see. I know pretty well. And who wants Democrats to move away from talking, for example, about trans rights? You said the Democratic Party, these men represent more moderate centrist establishment. I think they take a dive, essentially.

I agree with you. More maddening than MAGA. The counter argument is that the big tent party, you have ideological differences. So where's the line and compromise? Talk a little bit about these centrists. I find them dickless. That's my way of thinking about it. You know, they're sort of dickless. Like, just say something that's not mean or you don't win by being more like maggot because people go to the OG MAG if they want that stuff. It's exactly right. And I think I call these politicians, pick me Democrats. Pick me. I'm not going to say anything that offends anybody. And then in the process, they're just milk toast. And we need to have politicians. that we agree with.

And let's take the example of Zoran Mamdani. He's probably further left than a lot of mainstream Democrats in the electorate. But a way to handle that is to say he's a little bit further left than I am, but his electorate in New York City is further left than we are. And one thing that we have in common is his message of affordability. And then if these centrists, the Rahm Emanuals, and other Democrats, that want to pick up the trans community, throw them under the bus, and ride over them, we need to really be crystal clear that we will throw nobody under the bus.

And if you have an economic populist message, then you need to say, we believe in equality for everybody, even somebody who is trans, and we will leave nobody behind in our plan. That's what MAGA does. Maga leaves people behind. We're not cruel like they are. And I think there's a way that we could message that. But what pisses me off, Kara, is when I see... Democrats buy into the right-wing media narrative that we need to move their way. And I think that

is so wrong. There's a lot of push to be like Rom or Gavin Newsom did the same thing, a similar thing. Is that a real mistake? Because lately he's gotten more popular by not doing that, by being quite, you know, out there, ubiquitous, kind of mean, kind of funny, you know, not caring about offending people. He seems to be doing a lot better by being. offensive, really. Yeah. And I don't mean offensive. I mean on the offense. Right. I think that the Democrats, the ones that have some corporate stuff they need to clean up are going to have to clean it up and they're going to have to go into their base because the autopsy that I see on this, on Kamala's election, was the base didn't show up. And so we have the voters and we have

the vote. And if we can wrap up a fuck you brand of politics, we're not leaving. We're not leaving anybody behind. Yes, we're compassionate. Yes, we're woke because we're not fucking assholes. And we're going to fight, you know, tooth and nail for every single American and leaving no one behind. Not one person behind. And we're not going to kiss the ass of these corporations that dick you over, don't have to pay taxes. I think that is the messaging, whether it's a little bit, you know, not quite as far left as Zoron. But that economic populist message. And think about how much more it's going to be a year from now when the midterm... So it's a Bernie Sanders message, really. It's kind of a Bernie Sanders' message, who's now

become adorable. But is there a more centrist Democrat you think isn't out of touch with the electorate? Like Congresswoman Marie Gloos and Camp Perez from Washington. Is there someone you look to and you like, I like the cut of your gym? So I think a really important lesson for Democrats is Andy Bershear in Kentucky. He is a Democrat that won twice, and he used his faith, which the Republican Party has put faith into the electorate forever now. The Democrats just ignore it. And Andy Bershear used his faith to stand up for trans kids. And he won. And he won. And he won. And James Tellerico, similar. Right. And he won twice. And for me, as an atheist, when I hear people talk about religion, any religion, we're just like,

oh, God. But we live in a very religious first world country. And I know that they need to do this. And Andy Bershear isn't some crazy wild-eyed liberal, I would say he's centrist, but more than anything in our big tent, my thing is, I like to be Republicans. I like to win. I like for us to win elections because I know that if Republicans win, they will rain hellfire down on their citizens. And these exploitative MAGA Republican politicians use the faith to weaponize against the voters because so many people, people in Oklahoma, their whole social life is centered around the church. And so they Christians signal, the same people that accuse us of virtue signaling, I'm going to accuse them of Christian signaling to get them to vote against their own economic interests, but most importantly, to vote against the teachings of their alleged Lord and personal Savior Jesus Christ, who sounds a lot more like the atheist Jew Bernie Sanders when he speaks than any of these maga politicians in these red states.

Christ came back today. They'd be like, whoa. It would not like Jesus. You know, Jesus was kind of cool, like the things he was saying. It was quite socialist, too. He's quite a socialist. We'll be back in a minute. Support for this show comes from Volkswagen. As the U.S. gets ready to host soccer's biggest moment on a worldwide stage,

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right now, because there's so many, like every five seconds. And I think Trump understands that and creates this constant news distraction rage machine, essentially. So this was a bad one. We saw Trump accuse a group of a half a dozen Democrats of seditious behavior that could be punishable by death. The Democrats had posted a video telling military leaders to refuse illegal orders, which actually is in their rules. It's one of the top rules of the military. The White House denies he was calling for the execution. He did say, hanging. But Trump has desensitizes that kind of dehumanizing language, I think. And when it gets too far, he says it's a joke, essentially. So how do you think the Democrats should be responding

to the latest escalation? I think being indignant is, I have a lot of people saying, can you believe he did it? I go, yes. Yes, I can. Can you believe that drunk is drunk? I'm like, he's drunk because he's a drunk. Like, I don't know what else to say. How do you keep responding without adding to that feeling of desensitization and also not being constantly aggrieved, right? Which I think is something Trump does, too. He's always aggrieved. So I think that when I look at just mainstream media, the person who's been ubiquitous lately is Marjorie Taylor Green. Right. I'm going to get to her. Yes. Go ahead. And why aren't the Democrats flooding the zone in reverse? Why are we not? And I agree with you to act shocked that he tweeted what he

tweeted yesterday, is a level of willful blindness over what's happened in last 10 years. I mean, this president incited an insurrection. We all saw it. And the Democrats need to be everywhere all of the time, podcasts, mainstream media, saying to the American public, aren't you sick to death of this? Another day in America with a man who has dementia, who is cruel is all get out, who has tanked the economy, and they just need to keep hammering it over and over. And I do think the Democrats also need to be forward-looking. Like, they're doing a really good job muddying up J.D. Vance. He's going to be on defense a lot with the couch fucking, the eyeliner, not standing up for his Indian wife or his mixed-race kids, and seeming to favor

white nationalist talking points over the defense of his family. And I think we need to start muddying up any era parent of the MAGA movement, because they do such a good job branding Democrats a certain way. And I think they should be out nonstop Democrats beating this dementia thing. We know that media has it in them. Yeah. Because they did it with Biden. Yeah, I have a message that I used on our podcast tour, which I'm like, look, I don't think he fucked a couch, but he seems like he could be up a couch fucker. That's all I'm saying. Like, I'm not saying he did. I'm saying, if anyone did, I would kick him out of a lineup of couch fuckers, essentially. So, and I just like the word couch fucker. Oh, it's so good. It's just like kanks. It's super satisfying. Yeah. Yeah, yeah,

couch fucker. So let's get to Green. You've been talking a lot about it. You think Green and Tucker Carlson, and I agree are positioning themselves for a post-Trump Republican Party. They're very sad with both of them, especially around U.S. support for Israel. and the war in Gaza. You say Democrats aren't taking them seriously enough, and they have learned the lessons of 2016 and 2024. They're assuming voters will think they're too crazy. And, of course, Green has pulled back on the crazy. Suddenly, she's very sensible, it seems like. And I just talked to Scott Jennings of all the people, and he convinced that Vice President J.D. Vance will be the Republican nominee in 2028, which I thought, yay, because he's repugnant to voters. How would

someone like Marjorie Taylor Green or Tucker take over the party? And what are your thoughts of what each of them are up to. Okay, Marjorie Taylor Green, if you look at what she's doing, she's using the Trump playbook. She is coming out of the gates, attacking fellow Republicans. That's what Trump did. Lion Ted, Little Marco, low-energy Jeb. Right. Who advised Trump to do all of this? By the way, all accurate. 100% spot on. Loved it when he did it at the time. I'm like, finally, somebody is browbeating these horrible soulless Republicans. She's doing the same thing right now. Steve Bannon advised Trump back in the day, and now he's advising Marjorie Taylor Green. She is doing an America First messaging, which if you're on your algorithm, and you see a cat,

and you see a hot person, and you see, you know, a tennis court, and then you see Marjorie Taylor Green say, why do we give a blank check to Israel? Why are American taxpayers paying for this? they have free health care, they have free higher education, and we don't. We know the American electorate is okay with people being crazy and voting for them. They've done it twice with President Trump. And so Marjorie Taylor Green is doing a slight rebrand too because right now it's so toxic and so horrific. So there's a blending of Biden's 2020 campaign. We're going to bring you back to normal. We're going to lower the temperature. The problem for Marjorie Taylor Green is one of the biggest rise in the country right now, besides anti-immigration bigotry, is a rise

of misogyny. So I don't know if that's going to be too big of an uphill climb for her. And I do think Tucker Carlson is really paving the way to make a very crazy racist big tent with an assist now from the Heritage Foundation after he platformed Nick Fuentes. And I didn't think Maggie could move further to the right, but the era of parents, I'm going, oh, shit, they're going to go even more to the right. Right. She certainly is more appealing. You know, she was a man. She'd do a lot better. You're right. You're absolutely right. But she certainly, her modulation is fascinating. And what I want some reporter to do, and I really enjoy her saying some of the things she's saying, because I agree with her. But then I want them to say, tell me about what you think of immigrants.

Tell me what you think of trans people. Tell me what you, like, let's make sure people realize as reasonable as she sounds, she's not reasonable. Like, let's let her talk about the things where she's going to go. Gay marriage. Right. Yeah. What do you think of my marriage? Just curious. Right. I mean, that's one that we could really ask, what do you think of gay marriage? Do you, do you think these people are going to burn in hell? Do you think the Supreme Court should overturn that? These are very, very, very important questions. Right. We're going for the stuff we agree with her on. Like, yes, on this. But the split, you know, within the MAGA movement, which I think she is leading, and I think she's a very deft politician, actually.

But also apologizing for her conspiracy theories, saying I was indoctrinated and I'm now out of it. QAnon. She's smart that way. And actually, you know what? That might be true, right? I know a lot of people like that, for sure. And it's a very legitimate explanation, if true.

And it offers an off-ramp for the people that are still in it, that the Epstein thing, for a lot of people, their identity was this Q-Anon thing. They formed a sense of community, and it's a noble cause to say, we're fighting for the kids against these pedophiles. And then you find out the guy that you thought was going to whistleblow on the whole thing is cancels deep in the epicenter of it, you know? You know? And then she's offering an offerant to say, look, I was in that too, but you still can be a conservative Republican so they don't lose their whole identity. And be concerned about the kids and be concerned.

So this split, it's really one of the few issues Trump has had to retreat on because of pressure for his own. party. Having spent most of your life in bright, red state, as you said, why do you think it was the, I know why it is from being, you know, deep in the online spaces that punch through for mega voters and not, you know, not the bevy of billionaires at Trump's second inauguration, which they're starting to pay attention to, for sure. The right is, too, also the private plane, the tariffs, the rising prices, they are paying attention to that. But why Epstein and what should Democrats be doing right now? Obviously, they pass this bill. We'll see And he signed it how it goes.

But from your perspective, what's the strategy around this? Because it sticks. It sticks. I think if I were a Democratic strategist, my number one talking point right now would be the blowjob with Bubba that allegedly Vladimir Putin has evidence of. We know the right wing has a very long attention span surrounding the subject of blowjobs. Look no further than Bill Clinton. That went on and on.

New Greenwich can start. They impeached him for it. So lean in to this blowjob where it also ties in national security. And if I were a Democrat on, you know, a Democrat strategist, I would say, you're telling me the president of the United States gave somebody named Bubba a blowjob, and Vladimir Putin has evidence of it. Is that why he keeps bending over for Putin all the time? Because, oh my God, Kara, the big thing that I've heard forever my whole life living in a red state is,

well, I believe in national security. I'm a national security Republican. It's this big thing. You support the troops, blah, blah. And the fact that there's so much shit against this guy that Mark Epstein comes back out, Kara, and says, hey, FYI, the Bubba guy wasn't Bill Clinton. But he doesn't deny the blowjob or that Putin has evidence of it. So if I were the Democrats, I would be beating the drum about this blowjob because here's the thing. This dictator is built on this masculinity, and now the dictator is frail.

He's no longer a strong man. We're seeing the physical manifestations of his frailty, tack on him giving a blowjob and also keep pointing to the fact that when he was on the campaign trail, he tried to give a microphone a blowjob with surprising familiarity to the procedure. And that's on tape. Okay. Is that, you know, but is that the way, like Democrats do like to say, you know, We're not them, right?

We're not going to stoop. We're not them, and we lose. Okay. So that's right. That's exactly. So Bubba blowjob. All right. That's what I think.

I think we have to, that's not very as recline of you. We have to stop integrity politics and stop assumption politics, and we have to fight these people with everything in us and quit trying to set some moral high ground that no longer exists in this moment. Hopefully we can get back to that, but in this moment, no. Go dirty. Talk about Bubba. Blow job. Yeah. You're so Lee Atwatering me all over the place. So every episode we get an expert question. I selected yours very carefully. I'll be right there. Hey, Jennifer, it's Anderson Cooper. I really actually would have some questions about kids because I'm making milk right now and 6 a.m. And hey, buddy, they're very ungrateful. But what I'm going to ask you about is just a hypothetical. If say you were on a plane and it was your job to ask people questions,

And you asked somebody a question, and they called and they said, Quiet Piggy, how would you respond? Thank you so much. That is so cool that Anderson Cooper just asked me a question, Kara. See, again, more. And in six in the morning, getting milk for his children. More evidence of how cool you are. And by proxy, I'm cooler. Yeah. I heard that's a dream, that's a dream guest for you. Yes. Thank you. So here you are with President Trump. He says to you, you ask a question. He says, quiet piggy. what do you say? I'd be like, are you fucking kidding me, you fat ass? You're calling me a piggy? You obese M-Fer?

With your swollen ankles, are you for real right now? Maybe blend your makeup before you start trying to drag me. Go try to find a fat picture of me, piggy. One doesn't exist. I would just fucking go off. I would be horrible. Horrible. I would get arrested.

Cash Patel would arrest me, Kara. I would be arrested. Secret Service would arrest me. See, I told you, I had the different thing. You're far more reasonable than I am. No, it wasn't reasonable. He'd say, quiet piggy. I'd say, what?

I'm sorry, I didn't hear you. And then he'd have to repeat it. And I'd say, I'm sorry, I didn't hear you. Can you say that again? I'd just make him say it over and over again so that it was just, so creating a viral moment where he just, that would be even worse than just quiet piggy, like lots of quiet piggies.

And then he might say, bitch. I'd be too mouthy. I just want him to do it more. I want him. If he's digging the hole, just let him keep digging. That's my feeling. It's just, I was sort of surprised nobody said anything. I could see the person being sort of taken aback, but no one around her said anything.

I was really surprised at that. I was really, really surprised that nobody came to her defense, that his bullying, as particularly of the press, has become so normalized that they just sit there and take that abuse like Stockholm syndrome. the people that follow them around, it's, we should, and it should never be normal. Well, they want access. They want access. Anyway, you have a couple more questions. We're going to talk about the midterms really quickly. On the podcast, you've been talking a lot lately about how Democrats should not accept money from APEC. You just said that. It's a hard line they shouldn't cross. It's an issue to talk about a lot. While it's true that a large majority of Democrats have an unfavorable view

of the Israeli government and the war, the party's a lot more divided when it comes to support for Israel more broadly. A poll last month from the Chicago Council on Global Affairs, that while more than two-thirds of liberal Democrats think the U.S. is supporting Israel too much, fewer than three and ten moderate Democrats felt that way. So how do you talk about Israel in the campaign trail without alienating large swaths of this base? Because, you know, there certainly have reasons to be concerned about anti-Semitism at the same time. Well, I think that we have to have moral clarity about this, and we can't speak in any form of double-speak. A Democratic politician should very clearly say,

we support Jewish people and we stand against all forms of bigotry, period. However, when it comes to the Israeli government, that should not be attached to Jewish people in the same way. Any criticism of the Trump administration doesn't mean an insult to Americans that didn't vote for him. It's a very simple elementary argument that you can criticize Donald Trump, and that doesn't mean you're criticizing Kara Swisher and Jennifer Welch. And as a person who believes in human rights, I welcome the criticism of my government. I wish Switzerland wouldn't have finally picked aside

for the first time ever when they've been over and are making trophies for kanks to try to get the tariffs removed. I want countries and journalists to criticize this fascist regime that is kidnapping people off the streets in our country. The same way, I think we should criticize Israel. Benjamin Netanyahu, Naisus, according to Israeli press, he had cash driven into Hamas, and we need, this whole thing, a spotlight needs to be shown on it. And they can't hold us emotionally hostage by telling us, if you criticize Israel, you're being anti-Semitic. That is bullshit, that is emotional blackmail, that is incredibly toxic. We can see what they're doing. And the United

United States government is left behind on all of the other world's democracies and criticizing Benjamin Netanyahu. And we're supposed to be a beacon of democracy. But now we have this new alignment where the only time it seems like Kanks gets excited is when he's in the presence of fascist dictators. Look at what just happened with Saudi. Right. But the MBS.

That was a speaking of blow jobs. We also talked about Rahmail trying to get Democrats to move away from, say, trans issues and saying things like I'm done with discussion about. There's Ezra Klein, who's been doubling down, who's gotten a real glow-up, by the way, who's doubling down on the idea the Democrats should run candidates who oppose abortion in some places, and it's necessary to win more House and Senate seats. Presumably, these are the kind of candidates they think Democrats should run in places like Oklahoma.

What does it look like a Democrat that wins in Oklahoma? I think of Laura Kelly, of Kansas, for example, very popular Democrat. How do you do that? And without, I find a lot of whatever's is doing is incredibly. ridiculous compromises and very calculating in a way that's not genuine, right, like trying to manipulate voters. But how do you do that? So the most recent gubernatorial campaign that we had in Oklahoma, you had Governor Kevin Stitt who ran, he's a Christian nationalist, he dedicated every square inch of the state to Jesus Christ. Yeah, I've met him. And very polite.

Yeah, polite. And then he ran against this woman named Joy, Hawkins. Maister. I can't read the last name. Anyway, I voted for, helped campaign for. And she ran as Magalite, as a Democrat. And it doesn't work because the indoctrination of people in red states to be Republican is very intense. And it's every bit as intense as to be a Christian. And they use this spiritual warfare type thing in churches to also say the Democrats are demons. They're demon rats. So you have to offer something incredibly different and weaponize their faith for good and say, would Jesus want us to fund all of these billionaires? And so that's why I think a candidate like Tala Rico or Andy Bershear who uses their faith in these

instances, if you try to be a maga light, you're not, they want the O.G. That's exactly right. So it doesn't work. And the problem with Ezra Klein throwing women under the bus as a person who just moved out of a state that has a total abortion ban. Kara, there are so many women. And this disproportionately affects the poorest, which then becomes the black and brown people of my state, that go to get an ultrasound for their pregnancy, 18, 20 weeks. And there's some debilitating issue with the fetus. And they're told this baby is, whenever you deliver it, it's not going to live. And there's

nothing we can do for you. And so if they can afford it, they have to drive to a state where they can get health care. And if they can't afford it, then they're risking, messing up all of their reproductive parts to deliver this baby and then watch it basically suffocate. And so when I hear liberals that have never lived in a red state, try to focus group and workshop how to deal with red states, and part of that plan is to throw trans people under the bus or to throw women under the bus. It really, really, really, really pisses me off. It really, really, really pisses me off. Yeah. Yeah, it's so compromising. Anyway, we, in that, two more questions. We had Senator Bernie Sanders on the show a few weeks ago, and one of the things he talked about was how the Democratic Party

had abandoned huge swaths of the country in places like West Virginia. You said the party is virtually non-existent. So what's the biggest thing the party gets wrong about the so-called called flyover states like Oklahoma. If you could sit down with the chair of the DNC, what would you tell him? If I could sit down with the chair of the DNC, I would say you have to start a 50-state strategy immediately. Even if you lose several cycles, it will make an impact. Look at the impact that Bernie Sanders has made.

Every time he's run for president, he's lost. But his message permeates, and he made the soil ripe for AOC for Zoran Mamdani. I would tell them what's interesting about a state like a state. Oklahoma. And what's interesting about red state people is if you pull them individually on things, are you for gun control? Yes, majority of red state Oklahomans would say this. Are you for a woman's right to choose? Yes. And so they need to start running progressive candidates that talk about values, progressive values. And I wish that they would send a Democrat to Oklahoma, rural Oklahoma, everywhere and said, you have been lied to. You have been lied to and used

by the Republican Party. I would start branding them as liars that exploit people's faith, which is the most diabolical thing you can do and the most unchristian thing to do. I would get so aggressive about rebranding this Republican grift that has happened in red states and speak to them and tell them what you're seeing, what has happened to you is real. You have been lied to. You have been gaslit by this Republican Party. I know it's hard to think about voting for somebody else, but why is Bernie Sanders the atheist Jew? Why does he sound more like Jesus than Kevin Stitt? Why is that? And people are, I believe in people. They're smart. I agree. I think voters are smart. I do. I think we talked down to them. I was in a red state and

start, as I think I told you yesterday, was explaining what was going to happen to their coal mines. And everyone else was making all these pretend things about how they were going to become software and Silicon Holler. And I was like, mm-mm. I said, this guy's going to replace you with a robot. He's not going to tell you that, but I'm telling you that. And so many people came up to me. And they were like, you're a lesbian from San Francisco, but you just told the truth. I'm like, exactly. I was like, and I said, I don't really think that it matters. And I'm just telling you, you know, I'm telling you what time it is. And these people are lying to you. So. And I know they're your friends, but they're lying to you.

And it does permeate. It absolutely, not with everybody, but it's, I mean, not like my mom, who's like a Fox News propagandized lady. But every now and then it does. It gets through to her sometimes. I don't know. Maybe not. She's too old. It doesn't really matter.

So she's only got a few more elections in her. But it's really hard once they get that way. But they're certainly reachable. Okay. So you and your shows by playing a game with your guests called Had It or She's, hit it. So since you just moved to New York, six weeks, I want to play a game of would you rather. I've got a list of things specific to New York City. Here we go. You ready? Would you rather sit on a subway next to a rat or someone watching porn on their phone?

Oh, the porn, for sure. I would go porn. You'd watch it yourself. He'd be like, hmm, interesting. I don't like rodents. I would go with the porn all day, yeah. All right. Eat a Papaya King hot dog or is Zabar's black and white. Papaya King hot dog. Have you had one yet? No. Go. Okay, maybe I will for lunch after we finish this.

86. Where are you? Oh, you're in Chelsea. There's one down there. Yeah, yeah. Pagia King. And get the drink too. Okay.

Be trapped in an elevator, a Trump Tower with Don Jr. Or a Dirty Elmo from Triam Square. Oh, I'm going Elmo, for sure. I'm going with Elmo. Have you met Dirty Elmo yet? No, I haven't. Another thing. It's a great New York experience.

Do not let them hug you by as hard as you can, not let them touch you. Same thing with John Jr. Okay. Get a drink and an extended hug with Andrew Cuomo or Eric Adams. Oh, my God. Sorry. Oh, that's a good one. I know.

I try my hardest. I think I'm going to go, oh. I'm really splitting hairs here, Kara. Okay, I think I'm going to go with Eric Adams. Yeah, I agree. Yeah. He wouldn't grow up your ass. right? Yeah, exactly. Right. Allegedly. Allegedly. Ugh, the poem was mad at Kara Swisher because I had

Curtis Lee-Wan stage in New York. They're mad. He's hilarious. They're incandescent. He's hilarious. Yeah, get him on. He is hilarious. You know, I walked into that theater and my Brooklyn fans were like, what is he doing here? And I'm like, just what. And then they were like, we love him. I was like, see? I told you. Yeah, he is funny. He likes cats. That's all. I mean. to know. Go to, okay, two more. Go to Macy's Thanksgiving Day parade or the New Year's Eve ball drop. I'm going to go with the Macy's Thanksgiving Day parade because I think New Year's Eve is, it's past my bedtime. I like to be asleep by 9 p.m. Yeah. Yeah, sorry Anderson. You just insulted I know, sweet Anderson, came on and asked me a question. All right, last one. Jump in the East River or eat a piece of pizza

from the subway platform. Oh, my God. I think I'm going to go with the East River. Oh, wow. Yeah, because then you can just go home. You're never coming back from that. You don't think so? E. coli.

Mariska Hartigan is going to come have fish you out. Anyway, I love your show. I think it's great, Jennifer. And thank you so much. Thank you for having me, Kara. You're cool. I love talking with you. And I hope that we continue our budding friendship

to many more episodes and collabs on and off the air. Absolutely. Yep, we have to do it. We're like the nice version of Megan Kelly and Tucker Carlson. Exactly. Thank you, Kara. Today's show was produced by Christian Castor Roussel, Kateri Yocum, Michelle Alloy, Megan Bernie, and Kaelin Lynch. Nishot Kerw is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Special thanks to Andrea Lopez Cruzado and Catherine Barner. Our engineers are Fernando Arruda and Rick Juan, and our theme music is by trackademics. If you're already following the show,

you get my favorite hot dog, the papaya king hot dog. If not, you're blowing baba. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On with Carous Swisher, and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On with Carous Swisher from Podium Media,

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