On with Kara Swisher - Jerrod Carmichael on Truth in Comedy, Coming Out Late & Religion

Episode Date: June 30, 2025

Kara Swisher sits down with Emmy-winning comedian Jerrod Carmichael for a raw and revealing conversation about truth, family, faith — and the art of standup. They dig into Carmichael’s work, including his deeply personal special “Rothaniel,” his genre-bending documentary “The Jerrod Carmichael Reality Show” (which he describes as a sitcom), and his latest special, “Don’t Be Gay.” The two of them talk about class in America, the fears that kept him closeted, the role of religion and spirituality in his life, and why standup must evolve or die. Plus, why he’s the son his mother deserves, what he’s learned from artists like Jay-Z and Spalding Gray, and why he wants to “remove hyphens” from his name and focus on stand-up comedy. Happy Pride — and happy listening. Questions? Comments? Email us at [e-mail] or find us on YouTube, Instagram, TikTok and Bluesky @onwithkaraswisher. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I do a lot of comics and so I'm very excited to have you. Who's been your favorite? Oh, don't do that to me. I'm competitive. It's on. Hi, everyone from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. This is On with Kara Swisher and I'm Kara Swisher. My guest today is Emmy Award winning stand-up comedian, writer and director, Gerard Carmichael.

Gerard has been making comedy for nearly 20 years. In 2014, his first stand-up special, Love at the Store, was directed by Spike Lee. From 2015 to 2017, he wrote, produced and starred in the NBC sitcom, The Carmichael Show. He has executive produced, directed, and acted in TV and film including the Oscar-winning romp Poor Things. And despite having mined his personal life for comedy for all of those years, his 2022 HBO special, Rethaniel, was full of secrets he hadn't revealed before. His family's and his own, including that he's gay. It was stand-up as therapy and it won him an Emmy. But Gerard didn't stop there. Last year he came out with the Gerard Carmichael reality show, an eight-episode series documenting

his attempts to come out to his friends, make peace with his father, and find common ground with his deeply religious Southern Baptist mother and her notions of heaven, hell, and unconditional love. It's also about trying to be in his first open relationship without falling back into those lies. It turns out to be harder than it looks. Girard's latest stand-up special, Don't Be Gay, came out last month and I thought it was fantastic. He's really mining a lot of his personal things, but it's actually still funny. I like a storyteller more than anybody, more than stand-up that just goes for joke after joke.

So he's incredibly thoughtful in the genre of a lot of comedians today who are doing a lot more than just telling jokes. Our expert question today comes from another very thoughtful comedian whom I interviewed a few months ago, Michelle Buteau. So happy Pride to everyone and enjoy. [♪ MUSIC PLAYING FADES out, MUSIC FADES in, MUSIC FADES out, MUSIC FADES in, MUSIC FADES in, MUSIC FADES in, MUSIC FADES in, MUSIC FADES in, MUSIC FADES in, MUSIC FADES in, MUSIC FADES in, MUSIC FADES in, MUSIC FADES in, MUSIC FADES in, MUSIC FADES in, MUSIC FADES in, MUSIC FADES in, MUSIC FADES in, MUSIC FADES in, MUSIC FADES in, MUSIC FADES in, MUSIC FADES in, MUSIC FADES in, MUSIC FADES in, MUSIC FADES in, MUSIC FADES in, MUSIC FADES in, MUSIC FADES in, MUSIC FADES in, MUSIC FADES in, MUSIC FADES in, MUSIC FADES in, MUSIC FADES in, MUSIC FADES in, MUSIC FADES in, MUSIC FADES in, MUSIC FADES in, MUSIC FADES in, MUSIC FADES in, MUSIC FADES in, MUSIC FADES in, MUSIC FADES in, MUSIC FADES in, MUSIC FADES in, MUSIC FADES in, MUSIC FADES in, MUSIC FADES in, MUSIC FADES in, MUSIC FADES in, MUSIC FADES in, MUSIC FADES in, MUSIC FADES in, MUSIC FADES in, MUSIC FADES in, MUSIC FADES in, MUSIC FADES in, MUSIC FADES in, MUSIC FADES in, MUSIC FADES in, MUSIC FADES in, MUSIC Andzo. No, not right now. Lots of us feel like we understand our dogs. But scientists who actually study dogs say we might be a bit overconfident. We're just not as smart as we think we are

when it comes to understanding our dogs. This we gotta explain it to me. Do we actually know what our dogs are feeling? Or are we just fooling ourselves? New episodes every Sunday. It is on. I wanna start with talking about your special, which I loved. It's a new HBO special called Don't Be Gay. I think to start with talking about your special, which I loved.

It's a new HBO special called Don't Be Gay. I think it's your fourth or fifth? It's my fourth, yeah. Fourth of them, right. Yeah. Just in time for Pride. Do you do Pride? I do Pride in my own way.

Tell me why. I just don't like crowds. I don't want, I don't, like, there's no parades. Right, there's no parades. Parades are scary. Right, yeah. Yeah, yeah. But I understand, here's the thing,

after coming out, I didn't come out until I was 30, and then after coming out, I have Google alerts for myself, obviously. Obviously. And there's all these, I'm on these lists in these countries. It's basically lists of gay celebrities. Oh, really?

Like, guess who's gay.wehateyou.net or whatever. And I understand pride, because I'm a terrified traveler. who's gay dot like wehateyou.net or whatever. And I understand pride, because I'm a terrified traveler. I will not go to your country unless you have a pride parade. I don't want to participate in the pride parade, but you better show me a faggot with a shirt off on a float going down a busy street. Although there are countries that are not friendly to gays,

it's still also, there's a lot of both at last. Well, I need at least that. You need at least the pride parade. I need it. You better, I won't flag, like show me that like that he can safely make it from one end of the street to the other. Also a state is the same thing with a state, like a state in the United States. Most of them have a pride parade.

Yeah, yeah, I guess they have a pride parade. I mean the places I would, that's more a culinary thing, like places I don't visit. Right, that's true. Yeah, yeah. I don't like parades either. The only thing I enjoy is every now and then a dyke march is kind of cool. Because they're frightening. Yeah, yeah.

But it's for the show. I understand it for the show. A show of safety, a show of support. I totally understand that. Yeah, there was just an interesting interview with Richard Grinnell. You know, he works for Trump. He's running the Kennedy Center. He's their gay.

Oh, he's their gay. He's their gay. They found a gay to like, to- They found a gay who hates himself. And he said- For the arts? Normal gays don't like pride parades. And I was like, normal gays do. Well, normal gays-

The abnormal ones do. Well, normal gays don't program for Donald Trump. Right, that's exactly right. That's right. So, let's talk about the special. You talked about being raised straight when you came out in Rathaniel. And you talked about, you kept part of your life secret. You said 30 years old.

Yeah, yeah. I'm giving like a rough estimate. 30? That's late. Yeah. Especially in this day and age. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So why so late? I was scared of my mom. I didn't do it like, it could probably be reduced to being that simple.

Like when I came out, that was the biggest fear. It was also a change of perception. Something happens, I think, if you wait. I think you can come out in these windows. I think when you're really young, or college is a chance to form a new identity, so you can come out then. And then I kind of slipped into this thing where I moved to LA and I met all these new friends and close friends.

And so now I've just been lying to the, for years and years and years. So it was like, I want to tell you something, but I also don't want to tell you that I've been lying to you for this long. And then there's this, the religious fear, the fear of God's punishment, the fear of my mother as she represents God, all these things just like compounded and made me wait. What were you fearful of with your mother? Judgment, like judgment not being the person that, like my mother's, my mother has the

best idea, I'm trying to think of how to explain this, like I would love to be able to see myself as my mother sees me. She birthed a son that she prayed for, that she wanted, and he came and she has nothing but the best hopes and wishes, and like has this beautiful idea, it's a really beautiful idea, of like what her son is supposed to be, and how he's supposed to be in the world. And I love most of it. Like most of it I'd love to accept. Success world. And I love most of it.

Like most of it I'd love to accept. Successful, happy. Successful, happy. However, like being gay didn't align with that idea. And so I was afraid of shattering it, like both for her, for me, it was a... Was it explicit? Was gay explicit in the notes? Yeah, well, that kind of came with the Southern Baptist package, right?

And they're more aggressive than ever today. They're hoping to overturn gay marriage. The Baptists have said it explicitly when they hadn't before. That makes sense. I mean, it makes sense from their perspective. Like, of course, they're like, yeah, yeah. I was always like, they're just not going to stop. But one of the things that you did, though, is even though you came out then,

you did drop breadcrumbs all over the place, it seems like to me. Watching your stuff in 2015, you had your NBC sitcom, The Carmichael Show, the fourth episode was about a teenager coming out to you. First as gay, then as transgender. Your fictional parents in that show, Joe and Cynthia, same names as your real parents, by the way, handled the situation pretty well.

So it was kind of like wishful thinking. Yeah, I was like writing, like writing. How you'd like them to deal with it. Yeah, how I like the future to go, yeah. You also made references in your 2019 home videos. Talk about that. Were you consciously aware you were, I assume you were doing it on purpose. Yeah, well, home videos, home videos was like, that was my soft launch.

Right? But it was, I was so terrified. That was the whole reason I did it. I had just come out to my closest friends maybe like a couple weeks before that. Which they knew, right? Some knew, some were gracious, some were shocked. I got like a kind of, yeah, yeah, like a range of reactions. I got a lot of no shit, Sherlock, but go ahead.

I'm having a soft launch where I like, I've built up enough courage to tell my best friend. And then I do this thing where like, it's like a real floodgate type of mentality, where I'm like, okay, well, now I guess I need to tell everybody in the world, starting with my mom. And I made this documentary. I went to North Carolina.

The reality show. The, before that, it was called Home Videos. Home Videos, right, okay. And that was where, like, really was all built around this moment in the living room where I was gonna tell my mom, but I couldn't say I was gay. I couldn't, I think I was bi for like two weeks.

Oh, okay, right. I think I like. Yeah, yeah, you know, I could go, no, no, I could go both ways, still have a wife, yeah, yeah, like, just like, lying to myself or whatever. But I was so nervous, I was just on the couch, and my mom had just gone through a lot, finding out about my father's, like, other family.

So I was like, having this heavy conversation with her, and like, on top of that, I was like, and I hooked up with dudes before, like, in camera pants to her. And she's, my mom's, and I hooked up with dudes before. It's like in camera pants to her. And she's my mom's. My mom is cool, unfortunately. And just like actually like cool. Right.

To the point of being cold. Yeah. And she's like, that's your preference. Oh, yeah. Oh, that's a killer. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, that's your preference. Ice.

That's what you want to do. That's what you want to do. Yeah. So not a screaming kind of thing. No. Yeah, I got a screamer. Really? Yeah. Which was easier, I suppose, in some fashion. I actually, like, I provoke arguments in my relationship because I think I associate,

like, screaming with, like, truth. People usually aren't, like, screaming a lie. Right, right, right. Unless they're narcissists. Yeah, maybe. It's just. Right, right, right. Unless they're narcissists. Yeah, maybe, yeah. It's just a performance, right? So you, is it strange to look back at those moments when you look at them? Not strange. That was actually probably the beginning of,

like I can look back at those moments now knowing that I was doing the best that I possibly could. Mm-hmm. At the time. At the time. This is the best I could do at the time. This is as brave as I could be. This is the most I could say.

And I can look back at it. Then what's difficult is looking back at even old stand-up before coming out, because I could see how much of it all was a performance. Like I could see. So it's... Do you remember a joke that was... Well, just all that. I was doing, you know, just jokes about like really like aggressive,

like tearing down marriage. A lot of that was with my, because of my parents and like seeing, you know, the lies and stuff that my father told. But then also like a lie I was telling myself like made me very cynical and skeptical about marriage you know, the lies and stuff that my father told. But then also like a lie I was telling myself like made me very cynical and skeptical about marriage as an institution.

Well, it's all built on lies anyway. And that's also, it's, you know, you're in your 20s and you've got all the answers. And like, so for different reasons, it's hard for me to look at that time in my life with like pride and confidence. I can't, I wasn't recording any sets. I wasn't like posting anything online.

Like I was a very, I was like a club comic just going up, performing my jokes, having this antagonistic exchange with the audience. And then I leave and go off to my own private life. Did that make you a less good comic when you weren't yourself? Some people think that if you're not your genuine self. That's kind of, yeah. I think for me, yes, I think I found something in the truth and found something in revelation that was really necessary and not just cathartic, but necessary for the skill and the craft,

to be able to write uninhibitedly and to be able to, like, articulate a full experience, because I find that really rewarding. Things that I was hiding are actually what a lot of my act is about now. So, for me, yes, I think there are some people who have built characters that are funny and it works, and, like, you know, like, Sebastian Maniscalco doesn't need to have, like, some type of, like, deep revelation about his relationship with his father,

because, like, he's felt like a stage character that works. Like, I think there's a lot... Seinfeld, or like, people that have felt like a persona on stage that really... That's different. But you use the material from your life in the Gerard Carmichael reality show. People call it a Truman show-esque. It's more of a documentary. You had the camera team follow you around, capturing lots of hard coming out conversations

with friends, your parents, and your relation with your current boyfriend, Mike. One of the scenes that I really liked was when you agreed to pray with your mother. You had a very strained smile on your face that's just heartbreaking. Talk a little bit about that moment and the religious issues and your relationship now, because you're pulling her into it. Yeah, yeah. Well, so I invited her to New York. I come out, our relationship was strained, I invited her to New York, and it was a lot of like me, go to therapy, family therapy with me, you know, listen to my perspective. And I tried so hard to like hammer it.

And I was being really, really aggressive. And it was a moment where I was like, hey, what if I actually listen? What do you want? Like, what is a solution that you feel comfortable with? Like, I realized I wasn't listening to her. Like, I've flown her to New York just to kind of like bully her into like my perspective.

Right, right. You were like me in my... Yeah, you were like me in my gay kingdom. Yeah, yeah. But I didn't listen to her. And so, and I wanted to listen and she wanted to pray. She wanted to like actually pray and like have... And it's funny, it's a strange feeling because, you know, I've kind of taken this long route back to like understanding the necessity of like ritual, of prayer, of hope, faith. And I admire that about my mother.

I admire her, like very steadfast, unmovable faith. And I actually think— And it's a practice, right? It's a practice. And I think that, like, that part of a personality that I've gotten, and even just on a spiritual level, I think I've reaped benefits from that. Mm-hmm. Right? Like, this woman who, like, prayed for her son that's going thousands of miles away to Los Angeles, that he knew nobody, with a dream, and this belief that God did have, like, was going to bless a path of purpose in my life.

These things, I can't just, like, take the good. Yeah, right. I'll take the positives. Yeah, yeah. And so, there's something really beautiful about that. And I have kind of found the necessity for that. Again, in my life, I've been trying to rebuild God. Like I grew up Southern Baptist singing on the choir.

People thought I was gonna be a minister, like saltines and grape juice, having communion at home. Then moved out and got too smart for the religion and have kind of now in my 30s, come back around to understanding the need for, and especially I understand my mother's need for it. Right, right. You know, like, God is the only man in her life

that wasn't lying to her. My mother, her father, her husband, and even I, as much as I've found myself trying to protect her, was lying about, you know, like, God's the only, the only man in her life that was- The only one that sticks with it. Yeah. Do you think it's a need for spirituality in your path or a belief in Christianity?

Which one is it? Every now and then I wander past a church and want to go in. Yeah. But then I don't. Something, you know, something higher, something bigger, something bigger than yourself. And going back to potential, like seeing that in myself and seeing that in others, that takes practice to be able to look someone in the eyes and say, look someone who may be having a frustrated

moment and say, like, no, you're bigger than this moment. To have a system in place that is grander. Do you use that system anymore? Given you grew up in it, it's hard to move away from practices. Yeah, yeah. I still, I find myself like singing and playing gospel on Sundays, not even realizing it's Sunday. It's just like finding myself like, that's the music that moves me.

I can cry listening to spiritual music. I definitely need it and I've accepted it. Again, I've let go of like being too smart. What do you mean you're too smart for? Because I could break down my spirituality in maybe like three steps. It's just like, okay, believe everything's good, step one. Step two, hey, that's fucking stupid.

Open your eyes, look around. And then step three is, yeah, but believe it anyway. I see, yeah, that's fake. Like going past that stuff, I've read too much, I know too much to just be... It's obvious that things aren't all good. Yeah, there's a part of me that wants to believe that, but there's a part of me that, like, wants to smother that. -♪

We'll be back in a minute. -♪ Hi, everyone. It's Nicole Wallace from MSNBC. Listen to my new podcast called The Best People. I get to speak to some of the smartest, funniest, and wisest people I have ever encountered. People like Kara Swisher, Rachel Maddow, Doc Rivers, Jason Bateman, Jeff Daniels, and Sarah Jessica Parker. They'll often say, hey, Carrie. You know, they'll call me Carrie, and that's all right, too.

The Best People with Nicole Wallace. New episodes drop Mondays. Listen now wherever you get your podcasts. Watching Miley's show with all the home video footage of your childhood mixed in, you were using cameras from a young age. Yeah. Were you performing, or what did you think about it?

And did you see yourself in the third person as like the character in the play that is Gerard? Yeah. I think so. I think like psychoanalysis would say, yes, that's what I was doing. I didn't know what I was doing, but I liked a show. I love putting on a show. It was all a show.

The Church was one of my favorite shows and wrestling. I grew up watching WWE. I loved a show. The church was one of my favorite shows, and wrestling grew up watching WWE. I loved that show. And home was a show. Like in the performance of my parents' marriage, the performance of myself as the good son. It was all a show. So I loved when, like, life seemed to make sense

when we were putting on the show. When the camera's rolling or the curtains are drawn back, now actually the show at least makes sense and gives putting on the show, when the camera's rolling, or the curtains are drawn back now, actually, the show at least makes sense and gives purpose to the show that I was already performing anyway. So, yeah, yeah, I do have a love for the camera. When you look back at those home videos, what do you think?

Oh, yeah, I think I hear my voice, and I go like, oh, you poor gay boy. You know, very soon. Yeah, like, I hear my voice voice and I hear the need to be a good son, to be an entertainer. You know, I see that and... It's kind of a need to be seen, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is the thing that I was most terrified of.

Right. So in Reality Show, you have an anonymous friend. People guessed it's fellow comedian Bo Burnham, who has directed a couple... I'll never tell. You'll never tell. Okay. And he kind of calls you on the bull show the idea of the show being reality, and warns you treating the camera like it's God, right? He was a stand-in for the criticism you think you're going to get, and you're taking the wind out of those sails.

Talk about this anonymous character and how you were thinking of it in the narrative structure of that show. Like, you know, the Greek chorus. Yeah, sure. Yeah. You know, foreboding and wise and plays that role in my actual life so that made sense for the structure of the show.

Right. You know, it's funny because... There's a real choice that you made there, you know, to have that. Yeah, yeah. Well know, it's funny because... Because it's a real choice that you made there, you know, to have that. Yeah, yeah. Well, because it's interesting. I come up... Like I said, I came in with my first reference, it's like Dick Kavik, and all these things. I come up thinking television and the cameras and all these things are like a miracle.

And I learned to put on a show and I learned like a skill at a time when like a lot of my friends were leaning into, all right, well, you gotta put your set on YouTube and you have to be on Twitter and Dane Cook had just had a million followers on MySpace and that kind of thing. And everyone was leaning into that type of technology. I was still trying to develop this specific craft

of connecting with an audience, a live audience. And even developing... Merle Griffin, the Cabot. And television is a miracle, so you have to craft the show. Like this very well-written, well-crafted show. And so I was developing this skill while it seemed like the world was going in a different direction. By the time I did Reality Show, I'd done the five camera NBC.

Right, the NBC Carmichael Show. And I'd written my parents' response and how it should be and the father knows best. Then we hug at the end of the episode. Like I'd written all of it. I'd done all of that. Like when it was time to do like the deal with HBO, I was like, well, I could write another, I could do that, but I've done that already. And the world seems to be moving in this direction

where it's like, reality is like strange. Like everybody's got a camera and everybody's kind of got their own show and everyone's putting on a performance in their bedroom. And like the world is this now. So I was like, well, what if that's my show? What if I like kind of take everything I've learned up until this point and meet the world where it is

and just like, instead of like writing my mother's response to my coming out, because I was going to do the autobiographical comic thing that comics do. Right, which is I told my mother I was gay. Yeah, yeah. And so, but what if it's, what if instead of casting the typical comic thing that comics do. Which is, I told my mother I was gay. Yeah, yeah. And so, but what if it's, what if instead of casting Loretta Devine this time, we get actual Cynthia Carmichael

to come and have her response, and we make that into the show. And a lot of the craft was in the editing, and a lot of what I needed to be was just like open. What did she think of it? My mother? Yeah. My mother doesn't change for the camera. Right. So she thinks exactly what you see.

That's another part of it. What does she think of you doing that? She'd prefer if I not, but because she's unchanged, it's like, all right, this is what you want to do, fine. You want me to say it again for the camera? If we were having a private conversation, and then I said, hey, I'm going to bring in an entire crew and a camera, I'm going to mic you,

do you mind repeating that? She'd go, yeah, sure, I can say it again. She'd be more burdened by repeating herself than by the cameras coming into the room. But every episode we get a question from an outside expert. Yours is another Modly hyphenate comedian I've interviewed, Michelle Buteau. Oh, hey Michelle. So, I know. Let's go with that.

As a creator, co-creator, starring in, executive producer, whether it is a sitcom or a stand-up special or a reality show, how do you find the line, like the fine line, the balance between giving too much of yourself or not enough? Do you feel it in the moment? Do you plan ahead about what you're going to share? Are there consequences with sharing your mind, body, soul, and spirit and stories with people? That's my question. Which she does too. Yeah, no, for sure.

I don't really think about it, I don't think. It's... Cause there's two lines. It's like, I want to continue to like evolve and change and grow on all these words as a person. And I also want to be able to craft something entertaining. Sometimes it's like, I think those two things align and sometimes they may not. And like the reality show was just... And...

Rathaniel were like specials and pieces of art, where those things align, and that the... Me, that I was the show, that was the show. There are times, like, my most recent special, Don't Be Gay, where it's like... All those jokes and ideas aren't necessarily just me in that moment, but it's like a crafted idea.

Right, and an edit. You think about it. Yeah, and an edit. Yeah, and it's all edited. And it's all, so it is in some ways like sacrificing all of it for the art. Yeah, yeah, just like, yeah. Are there consequences? Do you feel consequences with doing that? Oh, for sure. For sure, for sure. Such as? Yeah, um, there are people in my, for sure. Such as? Yeah. Um...

There are people in my life that are very angry about the cameras. There are also people... I think there's consequences to, uh, to just being truthful. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Right? Like, like, like, I remove every camera. Like, you go around, like, telling the truth. People are gonna hate.

Yeah. Yes, they do. Like, people are gonna get really upset. They secretly like you. Yeah, yeah. Like, you talk about some of the consequences in your recent special Don't Be Gay. It's more like a regular stand-up, right? It's pretty sexually explicit. You talk about your open relationship. You talk about sex with strangers from Grindr. You talk about race and racial dynamics, how people reacted to your boyfriend who was white. You got a lot of vitriol on black

Twitter after Reality Show came out, but you repeatedly say you're focused on homophobia, that you forgot about the racism, which is, which one shall we pick? Yeah, yeah. Talk about the reactions to your specials in various communities, and does that play a role in your creative process? Yeah, my friend jokes and says that I'm at too many intersections. You are, youal. You know, right? You need to be a wild man. Like race and money and class and sexuality.

Religion. Religion is just, it's at, I do feel like I'm like standing at, like the on-the-nose like key art for any of my work could just be like a band umbrella and intersection. So it is kind of a, for any reaction, there's like another side that disagrees with them. Like I don't, I wouldn't know where to turn or where to be pulled. You know, I want to make people happy.

I really, that's a lie. I want people to be entertained, because that's my job. That's correct. That's really what I want. I'm also now, I've been in the business long enough. I want people to be entertained, because that's my job. That's correct. That's really what I want. I'm also now, I've been in the business long enough, I've seen the value, or your value as an entertainer change.

There was a time when there was a wall, right, where the celebrity, the person, the personality was someone to be, like they put on makeup and they went on the show, and you wonder what their life was, and they were to be like they put on makeup and they went on the show and you wonder what their life was and they were to be admired and and and you like you see what they present and then they go away and now Everyone kind of has that for themselves. You can put out your opinion your thoughts your your face You can expose yourself. You can expose yourself constantly like everyone's the news

Like you like everyone is their own, 24-hour news channel. So the best you could be as an artist is, like, the O.J. trial. Right. Maybe not. But kind of. Just like, oh, but unfortunately... Everybody's watching. Everyone's watching and everyone's gonna have an opinion, but that's the art. It is for people to go, like, some people are gonna hate it. Does it play any role in your creative?

Does it change the creative process when you get reaction? I try not to let it, but I can tell you it does. Yeah, of course, of course. Yeah, but my last special is talking about my reaction to reactions. And so it's not just like a snake eating itself. I have to step away from it for a little while. Like now, you only stop searching your name on Twitter eating itself, like you kind of have, I have to step away from it for a little while.

Like now, like you only stop searching your name on Twitter because you've been hurt. Right, right. I don't do that anymore. That's the word cunt is there. On Twitter now. Yeah, everyone does it. It's cunt is perfect name. At most you can just not do it anymore.

Right, that's right. That's true, that's true, that's true. But you had to stop. It was like, oh, that was like. That was, yeah. Well, it changed. It like. That was, yeah, well it changed, it changed. That particular platform changed. Can we go back to class for a minute?

It just stuck in my head. That was a theme in your earlier work, and kind of the third rail in America. No one talks about class. Now again, since you're at the intersection, right now you're talking about don't be gay. But talk a little bit about the class stuff that was in your earlier work,

because I thought that was really interesting. Well, just because, I mean, it's a... You know, I grew up in a place and an environment where people didn't have money. So, like, you think about money all the time. You, like, you're upset. You know... Or lock there up. One of the first things I remember when we got the internet, there was this website that broke down Bill Gates' wealth into like little pieces

of like bits of information. I remember one that said, Bill Gates makes over $300 per second. So if he's walking down the street and he drops a hundred dollar bill on the ground, it's not worth his time to bend over. Right, just leave it. Imagine being nine, like what the fuck are you even talking about?

Like an obsession with like, well how do I get this? How do I get that? Church, like I talk about that in a special like church, because it makes me understand, I understand people's need for like Trump. If you're poor, Trump represents like this. He's an aspirational. Yeah, yeah, and the way,

because I grew up with like around people that went to like mega churches, like poor people, like they just couldn't pay like medical bills, that had like pointed to a minister in a mansion with the Mercedes. But I understand the need for that. Rappers did that for me. Like I'm like, I couldn't afford the things they were talking about, but like through proxy, I'm like, oh, I feel confident.

I feel that. And so then, you know, my life is like, is strange because then like, oh, now I'm like, thrown on the other side of that. Right, right, right. And now, like, it's just a completely different perspective. I'm still like learning. I'm learning how to talk about, learning how to deal with.

Comedians don't usually talk about money. Like, it's kind of like, it's supposed to be more relatable in every... To everyone. Yeah, it's kind of like, it's supposed to be more relatable in the every... To everyone. Yeah, yeah. But I just find it interesting. So one of the things that you talk about a lot also is who... You mentioned Dick Cavett. You mentioned others. I know why Dick Cavett's come up a lot today.

Dick Cavett was amazing. That's because he was. Or Tom Snyder or Merv Griffin or... There were so many of them. But you often say also you love Norman Lear and so many others. Who influences you now? And is there LGBTQ work you admire or? Or not?

Yeah, no, for sure. Well, here's the thing. What the funny thing is out or closeted, if you are an artist, you are heavily influenced by LGBTQ work. Yes, that's true. It just comes. That's true, that's right. Yeah, like if you're in the church work. Yes, that's true. It just comes... That's true.

That's right. Yeah, like if you're in the church anyway. Right. That's a good question. Who was the most important previously as a young comic? Well, Jay-Z was like my role model. Somebody who I looked to for emotional guidance and practical guidance and to be like, you know, how to walk, how to speak, what to wear,

how to be in the world. Like, he was my role model, more than any comic. Because? Because he came from a place that was similar to where I was and he made it out and he carried himself with such confidence and he like never lost touch, like lost a sense of who he was and I needed that, I he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, Like the person who made Big Pimpin' also made 4-4-4. That just usually doesn't happen in an artist's career.

Any genre of anything. It seems an evolving artist. Yeah, yeah, an evolving artist. So they're so rich and interesting. He also talked about his gay mom. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Deep personal things, like it was incredible. And, you know, but as far as comedians, I still, I mean,

you know, I love Louis. I think Louis. I think Louis CK may be one of the more brilliant minds. And I wish I could do what he does. I can't, I think I'm closer to like Cosby, like in storytelling. Like, I think that's just where I've found myself. Storytelling. Yeah, yeah, and like telling stories and like using,

like using my life as the material and like, but like Louis... He's very meta, isn't he? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, obviously we're adults, so I don't have to do the whole disclaimer thing. Yeah, don't. Don't roofy people. Don't show your boobs. Yeah, obviously don't do that.

Yeah. Yeah. So you were in the Breakfast Club, you were on the Breakfast Club a year or so ago and said something really interesting. Let me play it for you. Comedy doesn't grow. Comedy doesn't evolve. It's kind of stunted, like rap, and we just started getting real braggadocios, like antagonistic with the crowd.

And it can evolve, and we need smart people like Dave, like Chris Rock, like myself, to actually evolve the art form because it is dying. It's so, so important for people to go up and do deep, personal stories or have a deep perspective about things going on in the world because it's not happening. Well, that's something to say. What do you mean about comedy being stunted? Well, yeah, you know, look, evolve or die. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, that's, this probably could be Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean, that's... This probably could be an even bigger statement about, like, art. Because the word platform gets used a lot. And I'm just of the belief that a platform isn't a platform if everybody's standing on it. And so, like, now a lot of, like, I will take comedy. There's some very funny comedians who do crowd work, but now, like, I don't want the crowd...

Like, my work isn't with the crowd. Like, my work are like these thoughts that I, like, you know, took time to craft and think through and write through or felt brave enough to share or, like, something that is, like, interesting that, like, it just becomes something else. Right, right. You know, like, and I watch comedy kind of take on a different form that...

Like a crowd source kind of thing? Yeah, yeah, and I never really believed in like crowd sourcing art. I don't think that, I think it's like part of the reason you don't like take the American Idol winners seriously. Right, right. Like, oh, I voted for you, I chose you. I chose you, right, right.

How could I ever take you seriously? And how could you, they also feel beholden to the crowd. Like, to invest it, like, that's the difference between art and business. The CEO of the company should be beholden to the shareholders. The artists should be beholden to themselves and like create something. Is that hard to resist,

given the participation in the audience now? Either through social media or comments or they do it themselves, or they have comments on the comments. Well, it's profitable. So there's that, like, you know, like that you say we- The playing to the crowd. Yeah, yeah, like you kind of start sounding like the rock.

You know, it's a lot of like, we, we, we did it. We sold out this room. You know, we, like we, we, we. And like, that's one way of approaching it. And I think I just have a different... So you're more like a chef, like, I made this for you, they're like, it's up to you. Yeah, I would never, that's a great example.

I would never want to go to the restaurant where I, you want me to make, I'm in charge of pasta. Would you like a little turmeric? Yeah, yeah. Add a little turmeric. Yeah, yeah, like, no, I'm going to ruin the dish. Yeah, that's a great analogy. It is interesting, because a lot of people do.

When you have, especially even now, we have a lot of fans now, I think it mores, and people tell you what they think. We think you should do this, and I'm like, I'm not doing anything, I say. And also, if I did, you will hate me. You actually don't know that, and it's easy to get caught up in it. Like, no, you will hate. It's the quote, like, never give the audience what they want they'll never forgive you. That's true that's true one of the things that actually is

easy to do too besides low-hanging fruit and not evolving is punching down which I think we're on a dunk culture Trump exemplifies the dunk culture obviously Michelle and you have been openly critical Dave Chappelle and other communities who punch down in sets you got a bit of media back and forth with Chappelle on talking about jokes on trans folks. You've walked back a little bit, I get why. I personally just think one joke is funny, an hour of it is not. My argument honestly was removed from... It's me as a fan of his. As like a fan of his and as a fan of the art form itself.

And so it was more a critique of like craft. Evil Knievel is gonna jump over 13 buses, right? He revs up, he's about to do it. So he's like, he's getting nervous, the crowd's like, is he gonna make it, is he gonna live or die? He goes over, he lands on the other side, he does it. It's a miracle. If he circles around and does it again,

correct. Oh, it's easy. Yeah, yeah. Then do something, then add more buses. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so it's just how, like, I think... Lazy is what I had the issue with. I'm like, it's just not funny.

Like, I like a good lesbian. Well, Bored, you did it. Like, I thought it was... It is, just as a spectator, it's an incredible thing to pull off. Like, and I also appreciate the spectacle and building up. Like, it's hard to make anything interesting. He did get pulled into it. He got pulled into the argument itself. Yeah, yeah.

You know, I think, but again, that's my... You're talking about punching down. People seem to love it. Some of it. People seem to love it. And I even get, in some cases, like, I don't even get caught up in the punching up, punching down, if you have a thought, like, there probably is somebody with way more that can make a funny joke about somebody with way less and I would

laugh. Like I would be guilty of that. I don't even think about that in principle. It is just... Is it funny or not? Well just are you maximizing your own potential and your own ability? I see. And that's a personal question. Yeah it's about craft for me more than it's a political argument. Is it different from what the Trump people are doing? You know, all the, they do a lot of dunking. Dunking is a sport at this point. Yeah, yeah. I mean, but then I got to think about like, all right, how, like, I didn't vote for Trump, right?

So, but I'm like, how am I complicit in his right? Like I do a lot of that. Like, what am I, what, what did I do? Like I paid him a lot of that. Like, what am I, what did I do? Like, I paid him a lot of attention. I have laughed. He makes me laugh. He can be funny. There's a part of me that like wants to,

like that is angry and I want to punch down sometimes too. Like he does do a thing that it's not, Obama and Trump, kind of like Captain Planet, Captain Pollution to me. Like, you know, like Obama is like kind of the best of our virtues, you know, like Captain Planet was like Earth, Fire, Wind, Water, Heart, and like, and Trump is the runoff, like the things that we don't

necessarily, but it's, they're both true. Right, right, right. You know what I mean we don't necessarily, but they're both true. Right, right, right. You know what I mean? Like they're both true. They're both coming from a true place. Like they both are a part of us. And like, I guess with Trump, he makes me interested in exploring like the worst part of myself, I think, in some way.

To be able to think about and correct when it needs to be corrected. Well, do you do a lot of political center? You don't, because a lot of comedians are now. And some people are going the opposite direction. The Carmichael Show was focused on societal issues, not politics. Do you feel like doing more political humor,

or do you think people are tired of it? I talk about it in my living room. As far as my work, I try and... My work is about what holds my attention. I haven't felt myself, like, having the interest in, like, keeping up with the... They're comedians who, like, a thing happens, they're on it, like, just like on...

Matt Gaetz. Yeah, yeah, yeah, immediately. Here we go. Like, here we go. And, like, and they may have, like, a really good take on it. The things that I talk about are things that I've been, like, dealing with for, like, dealing with for, like, weeks and months and years and, like, things that I'm, like, a perspective,

a breakthrough that I could bring. And to me, like, that's the best that I could bring. Right. Right. To that. Yeah, yeah. One of the things that was Rathaniel, which I think people are surprised, it had a few jokes, right? And you've said that. Reality Show was a sitcom. What is then comedy to you, it had a few jokes, right? And you've said that. Reality Show was a sitcom.

What is then comedy to you if it has few jokes? Well, Rathania was just like, I think, it's like this art piece, this like very emotional, that it's a journey that you're on with the performer. And Reality Show is in many ways a journey. My most recent special, Don't Be Gay, is, I think it is just crafted material. It's like, I think philosophically, I like tension and breaking tension is what makes me laugh.

And sometimes that's being the lone voice of truth in a room full of lies. The comedy doesn't have to be funny. Well, to me, what is funny, if, when I watch comedies, like a lot of my favorite comedies are dramas, right? Like what? Like, like, just like, I think like Tarantino,

like Tarantino is one of the funniest, like, film director. He's not technically, you know, like, he's not writing comedy, but it's really funny. Like, Kristoff characters are funny because he breaks tension in an interesting way. If everybody's funny, for me, this is like my own personal, and I've had tastes like this since I was a kid. If everybody's funny, then nothing's funny.

You know, the best example, I think, of my own personal taste in comedy, there was this movie that we love called Menace the Society. It came out in the early 90s, the Hughes Brothers, like heavy, dark, telling the story about like this young man loses his parents, is raised by his grandparents, gets caught up in the streets. And and like really, really heavy movie that has some of the funniest moments, like really funny scenes in it.

You know, like Clifton Powell has, I won't have to get into the details, but this is a serious movie that has really funny moments. I think Menace's Society is funnier than there was a Wayans Brothers parody of it called called Don't Be a Menace While Drinking Your Juice in the Hood, which is like, it's meant to parody it. I think menace in society is funnier than Don't Be a Menace.

Oh, that's funny. So that's just like my own, I guess. Right, yeah. The Wayans Brothers are hilarious, but I'm just saying like, that's my taste. I think Succession is a comedy. Succession is a comedy. Is a comedy. Sopranos is a comedy. Yeah, I talked to Brian Godden like, you're doing a comedy, but I'm just saying, like, that's my taste. I think succession is a comedy. Succession is a comedy. Is a comedy.

Sopranos is a comedy. Yeah, I talked to Brian Godden, like, you're doing a comedy, because I'm doing a comedy. Yeah, of course. Yeah. Yeah, because it, exactly. So fucking ridiculous. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's comedy to me.

We'll be back in a minute. 2020 marks 50 years since a trailblazer named Jan Todd decided to go to the gym with her little boyfriend. I had started going with Terry to the gym just because, you know, he's your cute boyfriend and you love him and you like you want to spend all your time together, not thinking about being an athlete at all. Jan told WHYY in Philadelphia there were no other women at that gym. It wasn't considered appropriate for ladies to lift weights. Some gyms even banned it.

The idea of a woman having muscles was seen as somehow being somewhat transgressive. There must be something wrong with you if you want to have muscles. Anyway, feeling spicy that day, Jan squatted down and deadlifted 225 pounds, which is a lot of pounds. She went on to lift more weights, set a bunch of records, model in magazines, and inspire other women to lift weights. More recently, millions of women have started. But why now?

Answers on Today Explained, every weekday, in your feet. So I want to finish talking about your career and industry. Doing a sitcom on NBC and a special on HBO are obviously career goals for comics. You signed an overall two-year deal with HBO in 2022. Are you going to keep working for them? What is success now for a comedian or comic? Because it's changed. Yeah, yeah, yeah, no.

You don't want to be the head of late night anymore. Yeah, no, no. No interest in that. Right, but no one would have ever said that before. Yeah, well, I don't think like, like Richard Pryor never even, Richard Pryor was at the peak of Carson and he would never have wanted to do that. Right, that's true, it's like the... It is just being able to make what you want to make. Like, you know, I didn't do this because I wanted to just, like, work.

I wanted to do it because I had ideas. That you wanted to get through. Yeah. I have comedian friends who, like, do podcasts and they're, like, talking to other people about things. I'm like, man, that seems exhausting. Kind of like, you really be caring about what people be saying? Like, I don't want to throw nobody on the bus,

but you ever watch people do the, they trying to swallow the yawn? Yeah, I've been watching like just sleepy people, but we were like talking to politicians like, you don't know the fuck about this. Like that seems like, I'd rather make less money and not have to do that. Whatever you want to make, wherever you can make it,

is all you're interested in. Yeah, yeah. I love my relationship with HBO. I'm thankful to have Nina Rosenstein, who has meant the world to me and has understood me. And I like gatekeeping. Mm-hmm. Me too. I like that HBO is a little bit smaller and that there are thoughtful people

that are kind like filtering through something I think like Well, they're breaking apart for example that these companies are disintegrating or breaking apart and made smaller Yeah, you know, I don't know you kind of got to let it happen there's nothing I can do about the mergers and the Breaking apart and you know, I have a YouTube show now. Yeah, no, no. I mean, if I had an idea for one, I would do it. You know, like, I'm not against that, but it's just like, you know, I'm just saying,

like, and even my idea of HBO, in some ways, is like a little antiquated. No, they have taste. No, no, it's actually not. They still do. They still have the shows that are talked about in a way, like, you know, Fritz talk about rehearsal or even talk about White Lotus, you know, like these things that are like talked about in culture. Because it's thoughtful. It's just thoughtful art.

I just want like, you know, I want to work with thoughtful. I've been lucky enough to be able to work with like thoughtful artists, people that really care. People that have shame. Yeah. Like if things aren't good. And they want to make something beautiful. And like people that could be embarrassed.

But you don't care where you are. You don't feel the pull of having to do YouTube or TikTok or things like that. No, and look, if I were younger... You're not old. Well, I'm just saying, but I am at a place where I grew up thinking about art like this way, that you craft something and then you release it. It's not about constant engagement because it dilutes the art.

So you're going, those young kids, 20s. Well, you know what I'm saying? You're right. It's not about age because there are older comedians that I hear are guilty of this. No, too, but comedians that I hear are guilty of this. No, too, but just like comedians are just like, talk too much. If my job is to talk to you for an hour, I can't talk to you for five hours a week. Right. That's right. Yeah.

And then like, it's going to get diluted. That's just like math. Yeah. So that's a fair point. And so I just am a type of person. You're right. It's not an age thing. I'm just the type of person that like, I would rather speak to you potently for an hour and mean everything that I say. So one of the couple more things.

You worry about streamers getting more conservative? Obviously, a lot of these companies are paying off Paramount, might pay off Trump, ABC paid off Trump. And so, but are you worried about more conservatism or at all in the current political environment, which will change? I'm probably more worried about it, like more broadly, just like it's a fact like that they're like 19 year olds

that have the same rhetoric that I heard like 70 year olds have, like that's like a little like, oh. Do you feel pressure to be in the Manosphere? Even though you're like men. There's so many Manosphere comedians now. Yeah, yeah, but. Many of whom aren't funny actually. Yeah, but anything.

But like, that's what I'm saying, like it is separating. Like anything that becomes a thing, like if you are joining the Manosphere is over. Yeah. Like it's over. It's alreadyosphere, it's over. Yeah. Like, it's over. It's already, like, it's already, it's like seeing a star that's been dead long, like, it's over. Yeah, yeah.

Like, yeah, just care about any individual voice, any individual interest in voice. Like, you know, like, like, like, Theo Von is funny. Yeah. Theo Von was funny to me in 2013 at the Comedy Store. It was like, you know, I was like, yeah, he's funny. He's 2013 at the comedy store was like, you know, I was like, yeah, he's funny. He's always been funny. Like, is he in the, I don't know.

Like, he's just... He don't feel any pressure to go that direction. No, no. And I think feeling like, again, like, yeah, I don't know. There's a difference between like the artist and like the used car salesman. Right, right, right. You know, there's just like kind of following the trend

and doing the thing, like I don't know. Going back to what Michelle said, you're not just a comedian, you've been an executive producer, a producer, a director, a movie and television actor, you've done reality shows, scripted shows. Is there something you haven't done that you still want to do?

Obviously not a podcast, as you said, you don't have enough interest and you will yawn at people. I've been yawning for hours people. I would be yawning. I've been talking to you for hours. Thank you for not yawning. I would not suppress a yawn. You're not boring. No, but I've been trying to remove hyphens.

Okay, a multi-hyphen. I don't want to be multi-hy. I want to be really good at something. I care about being really, really good at it. If it's one thing, oh, to be so lucky. Now it's stand up. I love going into a room with thoughts, with a show, with a performance.

A live show with people. Yeah, yeah, but I'm also, part of it is filming. I've also, I've always loved that. I've always loved how it's filmed and like that medium of like capturing lightning in a bottle and releasing it. That's always been exciting to me. So that's kind of all a part of it.

A part of it. I love the entertainment industry. I love it as an idea, but I don't need to wear multiple hats. I don't need to be a director for the sake of, I don't need to be called, I don't need to be called anything. Right, right. So just your work is all what you need to do. Yeah, yeah.

Last question, do you think you're the son your mother wanted you to be? I think I'm the son she deserves. Meaning? Like, that I care deeply about her, that I think that is what she wanted. She wanted to be a good mom. I asked the once what her dream was.

Like, did she have any dreams? Did she have like a career aspiration or something that she wanted to do she never got to do? And she told me that she always just wanted to be like a good mom. She wanted two boys, which she got, and she wanted to love them and wanted them to love her. And I do, I love her dearly.

And so that's why I'm saying I think she got the... She got what she wanted. And I do, I love her dearly. And so that's why I'm saying, I think she got the... She got what she wanted. Yeah, yeah, I think so. Well, good job, Cynthia. Yeah. Anyway. She did all right. Gerard, thank you so much.

I really appreciate it. Thank you, Sarah. This has been a wonderful conversation. This is really fun. I'm Yon, Jess. Thanks for having me. Thanks for having me. On with Kara Swisher is produced by Christian Castro Rizal, Kateri Yocum, Megan Burney, Allison Rogers and Kailin Lynch.

Nishant Kaur is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Special thanks to Skylar Mitchell. Our engineers are Rick Kwan and Fernando Arruda and our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, you don't have to join the Manosphere. If not, you do. Go wherever you listen to podcast search for On with Kara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Thursday with more.