On with Kara Swisher - Joe Manchin on Trump, the Dems & the Filibuster

Episode Date: September 18, 2025

For years, Senator Joe Manchin of West Virginia was a Democrat with a habit of voting against the party line. Not surprisingly, that was something many Democrats despised and Republicans relished. His resistance cost Democrats big legislative wins, including President Biden’s $1.75 trillion Build Back Better Act in 2021. After being called a DINO (Democrat in Name Only) for years, Manchin flirted with a presidential run on the No Labels ticket and officially dropped the “D” to become an independent in 2024, shortly before leaving office. Kara talks to Manchin about his new memoir, Dead Center: In Defense of Common Sense, his reasoning for occasionally siding with the other side of the aisle, his defense of the filibuster, and why he thinks independents might have a better chance in 2028. Questions? Comments? Email us at [e-mail] or find us on YouTube (full episodes available now!) Instagram, TikTok, and Bluesky @onwithkaraswisher. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I don't know if you know this, but my family's from West Virginia. No, I don't. You sound like my grandfather. When I play Country Road, you sing the whole thing? I do. I know the entire song. Me too. Hi, everyone, from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network.

This is On with Kara Swisher, and I'm Kara Swisher. My guest today is former West Virginia Senator Joe Manchin. Manchin was elected in 2010 as a Democrat, and in 2024, after announcing he would not be running again, he changed his affiliation to independent. It wasn't a huge surprise. Manchin has been called a Dino, Democrat in name only. He had a long history of not voting the party line, and in fact, his resistance caused Democrats some big legislative wins, including President Biden's $1.75 trillion-dollar billed back better act. That made him a target of Democratic vitriol and a friend of many Republicans, including President Trump. In his new memoir, Dead Center in Defense of Common Sense, Mansion lays out his reasoning for siding on occasion with the other side of the aisle. Interestingly, if you look at the

cover, he's way to the right. So there's that. I thought it was a really interesting memoir. He's a very complex person. And actually, he is making sense in that we need to find a way to find common ground. Although at the same time, I think he probably enjoyed being in the center so that he could use that center position for power. It's really complicated, so I want to talk to him about his book, about his defense of the filibuster, and why he still thinks there's an opportunity for bipartisanship in Washington.

It's an important question in these increasingly divisive times. Our expert question this week comes from Congressman Greg Casar of Texas, chair of the Progressive Caucus. Mansion is a spitfire, so this should be good. And in case you want to watch, instead of listen, and we have a full-length episodes of a show on YouTube now as well. So stay with us and maybe check us out there. Support for this show comes from ServiceNow.

AI is only as powerful as the platform it's built into. That's why it's no surprise that more than 85% of the Fortune 500 use the Service Now AI platform. While other platforms duct-take tools together, Service Now seamlessly unifies, people, data, workflows, and AI connecting every corner of your business. And with AI agents working together autonomously, anyone in any department can focus on the work that matters most. Learn how ServiceNow puts AI to work for people at ServiceNow.com. Support for On with Carousisher comes from Sacks Fifth

Avenue. Sacks makes easiest shop for your personal style. Falls here so it's time to invest in new arrivals you want to wear again and again, like a relaxed prodda blazer and Gucci Lovers, which you can take from work to the weekend. Sacks makes shopping feel customized to you from in-store stylist to their website Sacks.com, where they show you only what you like to shop. They'll even let you know when your arrivals from favorite designers are in or when something you've been eyeing is back in stock. So if you love a personalized easy shopping experience, head to Sacks Fifth Avenue for the best fall arrivals and style inspiration. During the Volvo Fall Experience event,

discover exceptional offers and thoughtful design that leaves plenty of room for autumn adventures. And see for yourself how Volvo's legendary safety brings peace of mind to every crisp morning commute. This September, Lisa 2026 XE90 plug-in hybrid from $599 bi-weekly at 3.99% during the Volvo Fall Experience event. Condition supply, visit your local,

Volvo retailer or go to explorevolvo.com. It is all. Hi, Senator Manchin. Hi, how are you? Thank you so much for coming on on. I really appreciate it. So let's start with the news. Last week, conservative right-wing activist Charlie Kirk was shot and killed at the

university rally in Utah. It was the latest in a spate of politically motivated violence, including the assassination of a Minnesota lawmaker and her husband, the arson attack on Pennsylvania governor Shapiro, the assassination attempts on President Trump and the assault of Nancy Pelosi's husband. In your memory, are you right about these bipartisan dinners with D.C. lawmakers at your houseboat, almost heaven, as in West Virginia. To be honest, it doesn't, that seems a little quaint at this moment.

As someone who said he's, quote, dead center, what's your solution for a populace that has become so polarized? Well, first of all, you have to understand how the system works in Washington, Congress, 535. buy it. First of all, we don't know each other. So you're not building relationships. Very few people live there anymore. So they come in on Monday night at 5.30. You come in, you vote, and boom, you go your own way. Tuesday and Wednesday, if you have committee meetings, you'll run into them. They're always having fundraisers. All 435 congresspeople were in cycle every year. It's two years,

but they start campaigning the day after, okay? So they're always busy. The Senate, you have about third of the Senate that's always in cycle every two years. So with that being set care, then to know each other and to be able to socialize and all that. So I would always try to find some time to invite a few down to my boat. It's a big trawler and everyone seems to enjoy it, but I always had a kind of a rule that you need to bring both sides. So if we're talking to three or four Democrats, we have to find three or four Republicans. I don't want to have a partisan, just a partisan get together, doesn't prove anything. And we were successful at that and had a good time. And I saw just that little effort we were making. People were talking,

people were doing amendments together on bills, that they would have never done before. So all that's very possible, but you said, what's wrong with Washington? Is it going to change? Let me just say this to you. One of the most difficult times of my career is being in the U.S. Senate from 2010 to 2025 was a sandy hook shooting the massacre of these little children that went through me i just i just still can't get over the fact that so many of those parents couldn't even have an open casket for the child you would have thought we could have at least had what we call background checks just a reasonable approach to something saying we're doing something and that horrific tragedy like this is a horrific tragedy

Charlie Kirk and his family whether you agree whether you paid attention whether you even knew but to have a young man who was willing to go to campuses speak his mind and ask for debates back and forth, right, wrong, or indifferent okay, but to be taken out

like that, it's just unbelievable to me just the visceral attitude that people have towards the political dynamics today is just something I'm never seen. So talk about that because this is something you've tried to say if only we went to the center. This is not happening. I mean, do you put it at any one place? We were talking, Karen,

I think the way you could probably fix it is, first of all, I tried to pass a piece of legislation, just an ethical violation if we campaigned against each other. If you know someone, it's hard to say no to your friend. And when you do say no, it's almost like with a tear in your, I don't want I don't want to give you the news that you don't want to hear as much as you don't want to hear it. So it hurts me, too. That's not there. It's easy to say no to someone you don't know. When I first got to the Senate, I could not believe in November 15th of 2010.

And I get there, and I thought that it would be kind of camaraderie. Everybody's having a great working together. They might have a differences debate on the floor. Then go about your way. That wasn't it. You were expected to go raise money every day, make phone calls, And the money you had in your PAC, political action committee pack, was supposed to be used to defeat anybody on the other side. So if you have an R by your name, any deed that's running, you're against.

Okay? Even if it's your friend or vice versa, if you're a deed, in my case, being a moderate, centrist, I guess, conservative Democrat, which most West Virginians were. I said, now wait a minute, you want me to raise money. And when someone's running against my friends, whether it be Lisa Murkowski or Susan Collins, Mitt Romney, whoever may be, you want me to give that person, whoever it may be, just because they have a D by their name, money to defeat my friend. Well, yes, so. And I says, I won't do it. I never did do it. But understanding the situation and then doing something about it is one thing.

For example, speaking to all Americans from the Oval Office, President Trump had an opportunity to quell the violence and reach across the aisle, but he did. didn't listen to this. It's a long past time for all Americans and the media to confront the fact that violence and murder are the tragic consequence of demonizing those with whom you disagree day after day, year after year, in the most hateful and despicable way possible. For years, those on the radical left have compared wonderful Americans like Charlie to Nazis and the world's worst mass murder. murderers and criminals. This kind of rhetoric is directly responsible for the terrorism that we're

seeing in our country today, and it must stop right now. So I will confess, I was shocked. I'm not shocked by much of what Trump does, but I thought, oh, good, okay, he's going the right direction, and then it shifted, and he got even more divisive on Fox. Just for people who do not understand, the ADL report that came out earlier this year, right-wing extremists were responsible for 70 of the politically motivated deaths, which is a large number. And the demonization, which does take place on both sides, is from the very top of the ticket there. Let me say this, if I can care. I know Donald Trump, President Donald Trump. The first two years, I was probably the only Democrat that he really spent any time with because I come from a centrist background.

They always said, well, you know, Joe, you're so moderate in your views. Why don't you just be Republican. And I says, Mr. President, why don't you just still be a moderate, centrist Democrat? Right. Right. So we had a big laugh about that. I said, the party, the party shouldn't determine who you are as a person. And I've never been a big party person, but I've always respected both sides. In West Virginia, they were always kind of conservative and moderate in their thought process. So I know President Trump, and I can assure you that's not the President Trump, what you see on that, when he speaks and the cameras in the public, when you're with him, he's gracious, he's easier to work with you, and talk to him, it's reasonable on and on and on.

So all I'm saying to everybody that's elected official, our democracy is based on a representative form. That means we'll govern ourselves and we'll choose who we want to govern for us. That's who we elect. And with that being said, I've always said, whoever you're president, whoever your elected official, they're responsible to respond to all of us. They're representing me. West Virginia is looking to me. Am I kind of speaking their language, speaking for them, or trying to make sure people understand who we are in West Virginia?

I think, and I've said this, we all have better angels in us. I'm hoping President Trump's a better angel because it starts at the top. The better angels speak to him, speaking to me, and speaking to elected officials, that this has got to be ratcheted down, this visceral, making it normalized, this attack, and the way you speak about people, I came from a little town of Farmington, Westfield, a little coal mining community. I was held accountable and responsible for my words and my actions. Right, except that wasn't that. No, I'm just saying that's... Saying he's nice behind the scenes, this is publicly...

I'm just saying, I know there's another side of him. Okay, where is it? I'm hoping to see it. Okay. I think the public needs to see it. And if not, then I'm wrong, okay? I'd like for him to. I like to think that about everybody.

I would have thought that, you know, we could have passed the Mansion Toomey bill after the massacre. Yes. Okay, very easily. Oh, we need is 60 votes. We had 56 votes. It was a no-brainer. 80% of the public wants background checks so we know who's buying guns and if they have a right to have one. Couldn't pass that because of politics.

And someone says, do you think it's going to change now because of the murder of Charlie Kirk? I said, if I couldn't change it with 20 children get massacred, I'm not expecting it. And it's not going to change unless the politicians, the elected officials, the representative that we have in this form of democracy that we have, start speaking in a tone that we would want to be spoke to. If you don't, don't expect anything different. If this visceral atonement continues, you're going to have what you have now, maybe more of it. It's horrible. So how do you get back to that? Shouldn't, I mean, for example, the president should be trying to defuse the situation instead of inciting violence.

Hope for his better angels isn't exactly a plan. It's not exactly. It's the only plan I've got right now. I'm hoping that all of us, Mr. President, and every senator and every congressional person, every local official, every governor, tone it down from the standpoint. I might not agree with you, okay, but I don't have to call you names. I don't have to call you out and think it's all your fault. The system has allowed it. Let me give you another example, Karen, after this horrible tragedy.

Last couple, two or three days, I've heard acquaintances and associates talking about they befriended this person. I defriended ten people. I'm not big on social media. So anything I can tell you is this. I know with a click you can eliminate that person being your friend. I never grew up that way. If you and I were friends and there was a problem, I'd come talk to say, Karen,

I just don't agree with what you're saying. Did you really mean this, or somehow we can work this problem out? Today, you don't have to confront that, a click. So you want to look at the social media? I think, basically, we should hold the social platforms accountable for this visceral language. They allow everything to happen. And then Section 230 of the Federal Code protects them. You can't go after them.

That's wrong. AI coming out now, we have to hold people that allows this type of rhetoric accountable for the consequences. That's what Governor Cox was talking about, the cancer. He talked about the cancer, but we've all identified that. But then he needs to pass it in his state then. So why has that not been passed? I have no idea. This is something I talk about for decades now.

Yeah, we tried. We have tried. But the lobbying is so hard from the tech industry. They said, oh, no, if you do that, then we will not have the audiences that we have. We will not have the attraction that we have now that you can almost do or say anything. I said, you know, we've always been held accountable. There used to be truth in advertising that many many years ago, you couldn't say something wasn't inaccurate.

You'd be held accountable and liable as one of the broadcasters of the three major broadcasters back then. That all changed. So things have just gotten out of hand. And, you know, you've got to hope that can we still maintain this experiment called self-governing? We'll be back in a minute. Support for this show comes from Indeed. At your company, you're across a lot of things, and everyone on your team is a multi-hyphenate and stretching their bandwidth,

which is all great, but can also lead to burnout, fast. and it might be time to consider hiring more people, and when you need to hire folks fast, turn to Indeed. Indeed's sponsored jobs helps you stand out and hire fast. The sponsored jobs, your post jumps to the top of the page for your relevant candidates so you can reach the people you want faster. And it makes a huge difference. According to Indeed data,

sponsored jobs posted directly on Indeed have 45% more applications than non-sponsored jobs. There's no need to wait any longer. Speed up your hiring right now with Indeed. And listeners of the show will get a $75-sponsored job credit to get your job's more visibility at indeed.com slash on. Just go to indeed.com slash on right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com slash on. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring, Indeed is all you need. Support for On with Kara Swisher comes from Quince. As summer fades, it's a perfect time to update your wardrobe with pieces built for fall.

So if you're after luxury items that feel easy, look refined, and layer seamlessly, you should check out quints. With timeless styles like this, you'll find yourself reaching for them day to day. This fall, quince has all the elevated essentials for fall. Think 100% Mongolian cashmere for $50, washable silk tops and skirts, and perfectly tailored denim, all at prices that feel too good to be true. I have used quints a lot myself. I buy from it and pay my own money.

I like the look and feel of their clothes. I think they compare well to other brands because they're a lot cheaper. And I've used all their leisure wear stuff, all their pants, their bras, their shirts for working out. I'm a soft clothes person and I will buy them again and again and return to them. You can keep it classic and cozy this fall with long-lasting staples from Quince. Go to quince.com slash Kara for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash Kara to get free shipping. and 365-day returns.

Quince.com slash Kara. Support for On with Kara Swisher comes from Grooons. There's no dietary secret that's magically going to get you in great shape, but there are products can help you feel your best, and Grooons is one of them. Here to improve your skin, gut health, and immunity. Grooons are a convenient, comprehensive formula packed into a daily pack of gummies. It's not a multivitamin, a greens gummy, or a prebiotic.

It's all those things. then some at a fraction of the price. In Grun's daily snack pack, you get more than 20 vitamins and minerals, six grams of prebiotic fiber, plus more than 60 ingredients. They include nutrient dense and whole foods, all of which help you out in different ways. And now Grunz has launched a limited edition, Grooney Smith apple flavor for fall. You get the same full-body benefits you know and love, but this time, they taste like you're walking through an apple orchard in a cable-knit sweater, warm apple cider in hand. Snackable and packable with a flavor that tastes just like sweet tart green apple candy. On top of it all,

grunes are vegan and free of nuts, dairy, and gluten. Grab your limited edition, Grooney Smith Apple Grooms, available only through October. Stock up because they will sell out. Get up to 52% off. Use the code Kara. Let's talk about your background a bit. In Dead Center, you write about how both your father and your grandfather were small business owners. You worked in their retail stores until well to your 30s. In 1982, you ran for office for the first time. In 1988, you founded your own business, a waste coal brokerage company called InterSystems. InterSystems, yeah.

Talk about how they shaped you from an entrepreneurial point of view, and how it influenced you and your governor and then senator of West Virginia. Well, I mean, I basically started when I got involved in the political arena called Retail Government. Retail government means I treat you as a constituent as a valued customer. I want your business. I want you to be happy with what I give you the same. services and I want you to tell your friends about it so I can help more. In business, the word of mouth is the best, you know, advertising. And I wanted people to come to government being your

partner, not your provider. And I've always said that. In a democracy, it only works if we all participate. If you're not participating, you're not willing to get involved. I have so many people care I can't even talk about. Would you run for public office? Heck, no, I never get involved. I don't want people beating me up and I don't want people talking about me. I don't want my whole past being flashed in front of me. I said, that's a small price to pay for the great country we live in and the life you have. Someone's got a sacrifice. It doesn't work if you don't. So if you're not willing to run, are you willing to help her recruit people to get involved? Or you just want to sell on the sidelines, say someone else will do that. And if we get more people sitting on

sidelines, if we get more people expected to get something out of government, then they're putting into it, it won't work. So people said, I think we might be at the end of this experiment. I hope not. We've been through difficult, challenging times before. And we came out of that. And there's a time I thought we wouldn't. So those people who think it's dire right now will never make it, we will. Did you you think it's dire? How do you, where do you assess it? No, I'm saying you hear people talk about it all times. Yes, you do, but I want to know how you think. Oh, not at all. Because I've seen much worse, okay, and I've seen this rebound. So let's talk first about how we got here. In 2010, after being governor, West Virginia,

for five years, you ran for a seat vacated by the late Senator Robert Burden won. It was two years. I didn't want to do it, but I did it. You did it. So it was two years into President Obama's first term. As governor, you fought against the Affordable Care Act. You admit in the book you were wrong on that one. As governors, we were always homogenous. We were always together. If you went to a National Governor's Association meeting, you couldn't tell who the D's and the hours were. We all had education problems. We had road problems. We had serviceability. We had all the different things. We had education. We had to work through these problems, and we helped each other. That bill started dividing us as governors

because they started getting all these phone calls from Washington. You're a Democrat, you've got to support this. You're a Republican, you've got to be against this, and on and on and on. And we're talking and trying to make sense out of this, and I said, well, let me just listen to what Max Baucus is going to basically give us a rundown of what the bill does. And he spoke to us, and I says, Max, let me make sure I understand. You're saying that everyone has to buy insurance

Okay? And we have to buy the product you're offering. You would have no choice. It is either buy this or you've got nothing or you'll be fine. Well, Max, that might work in Montana, but I don't think that's going to work in West Virginia. If you're forcing us to buy something without letting us shop it and telling us what we're going to have to buy, and if we don't do what you tell us, you're going to find us. I don't think that would be the best way to approach this. Well, they made some modification, but we know it came out. So I wasn't foreign. Against it or for it. Right. Once we had it, it helped a lot of West Virginia's who had nothing. It helped the rural hospitals because they were starting to get payment now. They never got before. They were giving free care. And so I was hopeful that would be.

And I want to make something better. And I still think we can improve. It's worked out in West Virginia. It's helped a lot of people in West Virginia. But those who are still working, they didn't have the choices they had before. And that was the problem, okay. but we're better for it than we were without it and can we improve upon it, absolutely.

But during that time period, West Virginia did, as you noted, turned red. What do you think is responsible? Obama, what happened here? I can tell you exactly. Okay, go ahead. Without even mincing work. For losing working class voters.

They lost them. How did you lose all the coal miners? How did you lose all the factory workers? And you know, our state of West Virginia, a lot of your homegrown family members are from there. and still have roots there. They were hardworking people, never asked for a whole lot. I said, I'm a Democrat all my life.

Why was I a Democrat? Probably because my grandfather was. Then my parents were because they were very appreciative of what FDR did back and give them a chance when things were tough back in the Depression. And then with that, we always thought the Democratic Party would always be there to help a working family, to help someone basically have safe working conditions, and have benefit packages, okay? That was it.

They weren't getting involved in our life to tell us what we should think about what we should do and we're wrong if we don't. So I was asked a question in 2014 by Elizabeth Warren, my friend. We're friends, but we just differ a lot, okay? And there's nothing wrong with that.

She said, Joe, what happened to the West Virginia Democrat? That's when the state flipped totally Republican for the first time in 80 years. I says, Elizabeth, really not a whole lot. They want to know what happened to the Washington Democrat. She says, what do you mean? I says, well, the Democrats that I knew and grew up with really believe in their heart of hearts right now that the Washington Democrats treat them as if they were returning Vietnam veteran.

You're not good enough, not clean enough, not green enough, not smart enough. You just don't need me anymore. Leave me behind. The war on coal, you heard about that when Obama got elected. He wanted to switch everything to renewables. There's nothing wrong with what he wanted to do because he was elected. as the President of the United States but you just can't leave a whole

generation society or a state behind there was nothing to replace what he wanted to switch there was nothing left there was no jobs coming and towns were shuttered and I'm thinking my God this is you're putting unreasonable demands

you're putting targets that the technology is not there for us to meet so it really is a war that started it and it went down from there and I said why didn't you change your political affiliation at the time. Well, probably if I should have, if I thought about it. I'm thinking, well, I mean, in your campaign ad, you did shoot a copy of Obama's cap and trade bill. It was a horrible cap and trade. Let me tell you cap and trade over in Europe. Cap and trade basically charges you for every amount of carbon content you have in products you buy.

Okay. What do they do with the proceeds? And I said, well, all you're doing is putting all your money in your social welfare reforms without fixing the problem, but you're penalizing the problem. So I said, I'm not going to be for that. I said, if you want to fix something, let's do it. Why not change your party affiliation? Why didn't you? I just thought for sure the Democrats can't be that far off the rector scale. They've got to come back.

These are people I would grow up with and knew. And one by one, they were getting just annihilated. And people started changing registration. And I told Elizabeth, I said, Elizabeth, I can tell it you this way. You don't want to hear what I'm going to tell you, but I'm going to tell you. The Democrats that I know and grew up with in West Virginia, truly believe that the Democratic National Party in Washington, D.C. spends more resources, time, and effort on able-bodied capable people that don't or won't work than you do on those who do. I can't tell to you any straighter. Sure, but you say coal miners never asked for much, but federal funds make up more than half of West Virginia's budget, for example. They do get some amount of money, correct? The state itself in general gets. Oh, no, the state, my goodness, we're a tremendous recipient of federal funds.

Yeah. Because of the poverty that we have. Right. And the hardships and all that. So you can blame it on so many different things that you can. You know, we are a state that was basically discovered during the Civil War and taking advantage of every day after. Absentee ownership, a lot of the gilded homes in Rhode Island were based off the backs of West Virginia land and coal and minerals, things of that sort. So we didn't get the return that other states have gotten, whether it be Detroit with the automobiles and things of that sort.

Yeah, we got hit hard. Yeah. So what happened was you often then became the swing vote in the Senate. And after Trump was elected in his first term, there was talk that you were under consideration become Secretary of Energy. So did you seriously think about joining the Trump cabinet? He called me up when they first got elected in 2016 because he's looking to everyone says, you have to have a bipartisan administration. So I went up to New York and went up and visited with him and we sat there and we talked.

And he has other people around. He had Reince Priebus and different people, and we were talking. I said, Mr. President, if you and I are going to go down this and consider less working together, I said, what I would want to know is what you expected from that office. So let's say it's energy. What would you expect from energy? Okay. And then allow me to put a staff together that would produce, if we didn't produce, though it was out.

Well, I could tell you, he hadn't been acclimated to how this works. And about that time, Ryan's Prebus, who was the head of the R&C at one time. He said, oh, Joe, he says, no, no, we'd have to work that out. And, of course, I knew the answer, and I started laughing. I said, Ryan, I understand. You have to have your people there to make sure that office runs the way you want it, not the way I would want to do it. And I said, Mr. President, listen, in all honesty, I says,

whoever my president, and you're my president now, you just got elected, I want you to succeed and I'll do everything I can to help you, but I will speak truth to power. and there'll be times that I just cannot vote for things that you would like, but I'll always give you a reason why. He seemed to accept that, but then, you know, as you know, he's gotten more demanding a little bit than other people, but yeah. Yeah, you'd be in a different position right now.

It would have been very difficult. So one of the things I noticed in the book is, you know, it's that often you didn't leave the Democratic Party, it left you. You heap a lot of praise on Republicans in your book and mostly have disdain for Democrats. For example, you... Well, let me just tell you what you're saying. I know where you're observing... No, I'm just asking because it's in the book.

I mean, let's in the book, basically. I only knew one party. I never caucus with the other party. And if I was so enamored with him, I'd have joined them. Why didn't I join them? Because I didn't think the party system, they've gotten so absolutely separated to the point where they're not representing the American people.

You've got to be selling your soul to one side or the other. I don't agree. I'm not told them that. I said, you have to have a secured border. You have to have basically laws, and the rule of law means everything. When you do the crime, you pay the fine, you pay the price. Democrats began lax and lax and lax on this, and I've told him you can't do that.

They've never talked about one time, Caradella ever hear, 15 years I was there from the Democrat side had ever talked about the debt of the nation. When I got there, it was 13 trillion. It's growing now to 37. Largely Donald Trump, but go ahead. Well, no, no, it's all sides. It was George Bush. George Bush. Yes, it was.

But if you actually added up, Trump is responsible. were 25% of it, but go ahead, compared to 47 other presidents, but go ahead. No, no, it all happened. Hold on. Hold on. You're wrong. You're wrong from this standpoint. After Bill Clinton? Bill Clinton balanced the budget. Bill Clinton. It was basically Erskine Bowles and John Kasig. And then with Newt, and you had Newt and you had the president. They worked this thing out. It starts spinning off, basically, surpluses. We were going down where we were at $6 trillion. And after we had 9-11 and two, we had two wars that we never paid for, declared war, first time, under George W.

And then we had two Bush cuts, tax cuts. She shot up like this. Yep. Under Obama, I kept going. Under Trump, it went quicker in a four-year period. I agree. And now with what you're talking about now, I was totally opposed to what they were doing.

And both parties, Joe Biden wanted to BBB bill and Donald Trump wanted to BBB bill. Both of them are horrendous on the debt. No one's talking about it. But in this book, you said that Kamala Harris's position on eliminating the filibuster was the reason you didn't support a presidential campaign last year. But you also, when you write about Republic under Mitch McConnell, extending the nuclear option to push through Supreme Court nominees, you also blame the Democrats for starting it. I blamed the Democrats because I begged Harry Reid not to do it. Right, correct.

I voted against Harry Reid when he tried to do it. Where is the responsibility for the loss of bipartisanship as someone who's dead center? Oh, it's on both sides. I don't see anyone reaching out. I felt more comfortable that the Republicans would hold on to the filibuster. But now I'm seeing, and I've talked to some of my Republican friends, they're like encroaching a little bit from here, nibbling away here, nibbling away here, trying to basically bundle people that have to be confirmed, confirmations, and all that.

And I told Harry Reid back in 2013, I said, Harry, why don't you just go talk to Mitch? And Mitch, and right now, you're all upset. The Obama administration is upset because they can't get some of their people approved, which is what Trump's people are right now to get their staff and cabinet and I said there's a thing called will and pleasure if I become governor

if I become president I want to bring a team together they're going to come under me and they're going to leave when I leave their term of office does not extend one minute longer than when I leave why can't they just be after you do a vetting of them

FBI background check and if they're all having a good standing you might not like him, you might not like their politics. I got elected, represented to represent the country or my state. Let me put my team together, if not throw us all out. That's well and pleasure. That should be a 51 vote threshold.

You shouldn't have to go through all this ring my row. And it's almost basically prevent a president or any executive from putting their team together. You want to cripple them that they can't run the government, so it'll look bad. You don't play politics that way. And I promised, I asked him to do that. He thought, well, it's because they don't talk. There's no relationships. If they'd have done that, you'd have never had, you'd have never had all your judges.

You'd have never had the Supreme Court. But when he did the circuit and district judges, you knew darn well as soon as Mitch McConnell got a hold of it, being the iron horse that he is, he was going to go for the Supreme. And he did. So let's dig into the filibuster, which you called the Holy Grail and the soul of the Senate. The framers didn't want a supermajority requirement to pass bills. They tried that with the Continental Congress, and it failed, which is why the Constitution calls for a simple majority to pass bills in the Senate. In fact, Alexander Hamilton specifically warned against the supermajority requirement, and federal is 22. So as the filibuster was developed was mostly used by defenders of slavery and segregation, Robert Byrd filibustered on the Civil Rights Act for 14 hours.

In the book, you repeatedly lament our political gridlock, but the filibuster is arguably the primary cause of that gridlock. Talk to critics who point out this isn't the system of founding fathers intended. Founding fathers, well, let's assess this. There's 13 colonies, right? 1789. Who came out of there and had to explain to the states what we have? What kind of government do we have? We've always heard the famous asking Benjamin Franklin, do you have a republic young man if you can keep it?

But someone had to tell big old Massachusetts, which was a key factor in that period of time, economic force for our country. And then you had, of course, you have Pence. you had a big four, you had New York, Pennsylvania, and Virginia. Someone had to tell them that we're going to have a bicameral, we'll have a house, you know, people's house, and representing based on what the population is

and one person is only, you know, have equal representation. And then what about this other one called the Senate? He said, well, the Senate's going to be a little differently. He said, every state's going to have two representatives. Two, you're telling me, and I'm a senator from Massachusetts, that basically Rhode Island and Delaware, those little teeny places that have no economy whatsoever to speak of or people,

that they're going to have the same right that I have, can offset my vote? Yeah, I don't want the big guys beating up on the little guys. This is going to be the United States, not to divide it. So a Senate had basic, a senator, always had the ability to speak forever. Take the time, and time is precious on the floor of the Senate.

So if you tie things up, that's the filibuster, there was nothing written, but there was nothing to stop a senator from speaking until 1917. That's when the cloture votes came in during World War I. When we had isolationists, didn't want to send any goods to our troops

to our allies, and they had to get over that. So I think it was a 67 vote threshold at that time. Then it went down to, I think it then went to 60. Anyway, it came down to try to get it more workable. But it basically, we found out as we went through this, that it

kind of put us together. It didn't let you just retreat to your corner and just fight to your death. The House already did that. And I think it was George Washington. It says, you know, the House is going to be like a hot cup of tea. You've heard that many times, I'm sure. And the Senate will be like a sauce or the cool the tea off so we can drink it. And that was the whole purpose of it.

So didn't have to have any written. It was basically the decorum of the Senate what we were supposed to and what was expected. They've come to a conclusion, but now that's sort of shot. Well, still, that's not shot. Just think where you'd be right today. Think where the Democrats would be if I would have voted to get rid of the filibuster, where they would be today, with Donald Trump having a trifecta. Even though he's doing a lot of things with the executive, he's not changing rules or putting rules and lulls into place. Right.

So the rules he's putting in can be undone as quickly next. You put a law, it takes a little bit longer. That's kind of a good segue. Every episode, we get a question from an outside expert. Here's yours from Representative Greg Kasar, chair of the Congressional Progressive Caucus. Let's listen. Hi, Senator Manchin. I'm Congressman Greg Kassar, and my big question is not about a progressive issue. It's about an issue that should be bipartisan, and that is redistricting. In my home state

of Texas, Donald Trump just rammed through radical mid-decade redistricting. We have a ballot measure now in California on redistricting. It could spread to states like Florida, Indiana, Missouri. And my question to you is after a ban on gerrymandering passed its way, through the House of Representatives, it never can make its way through the Senate. And so my question is, do you regret not carving out an exception in the filibuster or doing whatever you could

to make sure that a ban on gerrymandering could make its way through the Senate and get signed into law? Do you regret that decision? Good question. Do I regret not getting into the filibuster? Absolutely not. It's the Holy Grail. Okay.

We have to work through it. And the bottom line is, these gerrymanding, what goes around comes around. It's horrible. what the president has asked Texas to do, now what California is in retaliation is doing, and all of this. I think there's some states that basically use

nonpartisan commissions, there's some states that even use computers. There has to be a way forward on this thing here. I mean, if you're asking me of the biggest problems that we have right now, it's basically the amount of money in campaigning, the amount of money that people can put in. The Citizens United was horrible, horrible, horrible.

And also basically it's primary, You know, right now you have a strong president, with you have a trifecta, if you will, the House, the Senate, and the executive branch, and you have all that going for you, and you have no checks and balances to where you can say, wait a minute, that's not what pushed this through. I understand where he's coming from. But if you had open primaries, you wouldn't be able, the president couldn't target, or the party couldn't target someone who's not a good enough Republican or Democrat in primarium. the open primary or ranked choice voting, which my dear friends Lisa Murkowski and Susan Collins would never get elected as Republicans

if it wasn't for that. So do you regret not figuring out to ban gerrymandering by making an exemption to the filibuster or not? You can't make exemptions like a little bit of pregnancy? We tried, we looked at everything we could.

What I like to see the filibuster is you have to have talking filibuster. You have to go down the floor and explain. You have to have maybe 10 other senators that will agree with you that do you think it's a serious problem. That would make it more concrete. It would give more credence to it and credibility. And just you can do reform like that, but you say, well, I can't carve this out. That's like, okay, Harry Reid tried to carve it out. He carved out the U.S. Supreme Court, right? How long did that work? So how would you deal with banning gerrymandering

at this point? Like everybody has a nuclear weapon, essentially, depending on the states. Well, the states, you know, there's still states' rights. The Tenth Amendment gives states the rights. They're not going to be basically forced to run their government like the federal does. I think that's the whole purpose of it, you know, keeping a government to where the states do have some rights. As a former governor, I was very, very concerned about how we ran our elections. I had to answer to the people. So the people of Texas, the people of California, all of them should be speaking out.

This is wrong because what happens today will be worse tomorrow. It's not going to any better. but it's saying that we're going to outlaw it and ban it. You know, I wish you could. I think it's wrong. I think you have to have the independent commissions. But that's for the state's this side. That state's responsible for the elections, not the federal government.

So in an interview with the New York Times opinion writer Michelle Kyle before Trump took office, you sounded optimistic that Senate Republicans wouldn't just fall in line with the president, but they've greenlit out almost every nominee no matter how underqualified. based on these first eight months or so, Republicans and Congress weren't acting like they represent an independent branch of government, which they are. Do you think you got it wrong? And if they aren't willing to see the idea that they would be a counter, they wouldn't just fall in line, that they would make the right decisions. Do you think Congress remains an independent body? I worry about the independency of the three branches, judicial, executive, and legislative.

I thought there was an awful lot of people that I know are very strong will and very smart in the Republican side that I was hoping for would have been able to speak respectfully truth to power, okay? And that's why I've come to the conclusion. You almost need term limits anymore. Yes, I would agree. Term limits, I had a lady one time carer that told me in southern West Virginia, there'd be 200 people at Town Hall. And I was speaking, and she asked me a question, Joe, I wish you were for term limits. So I tried to explain to her, had to be 10 or more years, 15 years ago when I was governor. And I told her why it was not four term limits at that time, thinking what I had kind of always thought and heard, you have people with expertise.

Now, here I was as a governor. I'm term limit out in two terms, eight years, two fours. But I thought, well, you lose expertise in the legislative process and all the knowledge and everything. And she looked at me and she said, just think, Joe, if there were term limits, maybe we get one good term out of you. Carrier didn't get any better than that. You know what? I says, I'm sorry, I agree with you. And I've been for term limits ever since because it would give that legislator the courage to be independent for that last two-year term or the last six-year term if you're a senator. You can Tom Tillis right now. Yeah. Okay. You get that courage a little bit earlier knowing this is your last. I really truly believe it's needed probably as much as anything. And it might cure some of the problems of gerrymandering and all these other things. Another thing is the unitary executive theory, the idea that the president has a sole power over the executive branch has become a huge talking point. President Trump has an expansive interpretation of presidential power. Has that surprised you based on your previous experience with him?

It concerns me from the standpoint, thinking that one person is above the law. Yeah. And I think if you go back to our founding fathers or the Federalist Papers and this and that, they looked at everything they hated about King George. They looked at everything they hated about a monarch. We'll make sure we didn't do anything. They'll lead us down that path. they were pretty good for about 200 years last 40 had been pretty rough we're testing it you asked about something a little bit earlier

about the Republican Party if you recall you remember how soured the relationship between Mitch McConnell and Donald Trump was the first it's because they had I think it was 54 or 53 Republicans I'm not sure

during that term and Donald Trump kept saying hey listen we've got a majority of Republicans just pass what I want. And Mitch McConnell says, no, it doesn't work that way. And the Republican Senator is almost to a T. Said absolutely not. We're not getting rid of the filibuster for that.

No, we're not going to. And it just basically made just open warfare. I was up there and the berating that they received from the White House at that time was unbelievable. But after the second term, I was hoping for the first pushback. Let's put it that way. And hopefully, well, they haven't gotten rid of the filibuster.

But they're allowing some of these things. Do you think Trump is acting like a king? You mentioned King George with all these executive orders. I think he knows there's still guard rolls. He can't. He can't have certain things. The checks and balances are still there. The judicial branch, basically, okay, is still there.

I still think there's some people that you're going to see that could be surprising. And this midterm election could change everything in a demeanor of what we're doing and how much get up and go they got. So West Virginians seem to be all in on Trump still in a recent poll. A third of them said President Trump had done the best job as president in their lifetimes. It's clear he's been a big supporter of revitalizing the coal industry. In April, he passed four executive orders. It basically gave the industry what it asked for.

But West Virginia has more issues than coal. Infrastructure in the state is crumbling. Your state is ranked as third most dependent on federal dollars in the nation, as we talked about. Early this year, Doge cuts halted millions of dollars in deliveries to food banks and Trump's tax and spending bill, including big cuts to education and Medicare, Medicaid. All this could really hurt the state. Is there going to be a shift in West Virginia? Do you see that happening?

You just talked about the midterms. Well, we'll see. You would like to think that people usually vote to pocketbooks or vote to services, one or the two. And with that being said, these changes, it amaze me that if you're going to do a piece of legislation when President Biden wanted to do BBB and I thought was an overreach and expansion that we could never, ever afford. He and I spoke one time, and I said, you know, you and I are about the same vintage. You're a little bit older, but we're not that far apart. And I'm from the school, John Kennedy, asked not what your country can do for you, what you can do for your country.

To me, that's what's called me to public service. I think I can do something, and I wanted to. You passed this piece of legislation, Mr. President. You're going to change the psychic of the nation. How much more can my country do for me? I couldn't buy into that, okay? Then you come along and they want to do the BBB, the other big, big, beautiful bill, and not looking at basically what is going to affect and how,

but also it doesn't take effect until after 2026 election, until 2027. Well, wait a minute. If you're passing a piece of legislation that's so needed, don't you want to take effect immediately to help all the people? They were afraid of the pushback. So I don't know if that's going to resonate with people that what's going to hit you, you in 2027 happened because it was voted on in 2025. I've never seen anything like it, but people haven't comprehended that yet, I don't believe.

We'll be back in a minute. from Delete Me. If you want to freak yourself out, search recent data breaches on the search engine of your choice. Not to ruin the surprise, but the list is going to be long. That's because these days it's easier than ever to find personal information about people online, and that can have actual consequences in the real world. Delete Me makes easy, quick, and safe to remove your personal data online at a time when surveillance and data breaches are common enough to make everyone vulnerable. I've gotten to use Delete Me and I use it a lot. I think its dashboard is really easy to understand. And of course, when you're hearing about data breaches every day, it becomes ever more important

to do so. I have been aware of data breaches for a while. It's not something new to me, but it seems more than ever most of our information is vulnerable. The way I use it is I go and find out what people have done, what information they put together, and then I delete it. Delete me, right? Take control of your data and keep your private life private by signing up for Delete Me. Now at a special discount for our listeners. Get 20% off your DeleteMe plan when you go to join DeleteMe.com slash Kara and use a promo code Kara at checkout. The only way to get 20% off is to go to join deleteme.com slash Kara and enter code Kara K-A-R-A at checkout. That's join deleteme.com slash Kara code Kera.

Support for this show comes from Framer. When the internet was still novel, even the most basic websites were impressive. But it's been like 40 years and countless internet generation since then, and it'll take more than basic pixel art to stand out. For that, you might want to try Framer. Framer is the design-first, no-code website builder, lest anyone ship a production-ready site in minutes. You can get inspiration from hundreds of templates or strike-out on your own from a totally blank canvas. Multiplayer collaboration means your writer, designer, and marketer can all tweak the same page at once with no risk of corrupting version control. And under the hood, you'll get responsive breakpoints,

built-in hosting a flexible CSM and privacy-friendly analytics so that you know what's working and what needs fixing. And at every step, Framer's AI-powered dev assistant helps you generate banners, pricing tables, navigation bars, and more, all specified to your palette and branding. Ready to build a site that looks hand-coded without hiring a developer? Launch your site for free at Framer.com and use the code Kara to get your first month of pro on the house. That's Framer.com Code Kara. Framer.com promo code Kera. Rules and restrictions may apply. With Amex Platinum, access to exclusive Amex presale tickets can score you a spot trackside. So being a fan for life turns into the trip of a lifetime. That's the powerful backing of

Amex. Pre-sale tickets for future events subject to availability and varied by race. Terms and conditions apply. Learn more at amex.ca.com. I want to finish up talking about third parties, because that's really where you're going, because the centrism hasn't really worked. Everyone's gotten even more partisan, I would say. So in 2020, you'd already announce you weren't running for a third term. You decided to drop the D in registers an independent. You joined Kirsten Sinema, Angus King, and of course, Bernie Sanders. All of you are very different politically, right? You and Bernie Sanders seem to agree on one thing that more people should run as independence. Now, third party runs for presence have never been easy or

successful for that matter, but the hurdles have only gotten bigger. We spoke earlier about the increasing number of closed primaries and gerrymandering. You had been toying with the idea of running for president as independent in 2024 with the no labels movement. Is there any way you could see an independent party rise? New parties have formed during partisan times, that's for sure. But could you see yourself doing that? Well, let's look right now what's happening. What's the largest denomination of people that are participating in voting? What do they belong to? the Democrat Party, Republican Party. Right now, it's about 23, 24% registered Democrats, maybe 26%, 27 Republican.

The largest is no party affiliation, which is what I belong to. So you have people that want to belong to the grand, no party that's not so grand anymore. You like people who like to be, with the Democrat Party used to be responsible and compassionate. They don't seem to be as responsible as they were before. So you have that mixture in the middle. Is it ripe? Yeah, I think it's ripe. I'd like to see an American Independent Party.

They're scared of the bejesies out of the two for the gone so far. We never went to the extremes. We've always kind of governed between the 40-yard line, 40 and 40. Now we're cleared down to the 10-yard, and basically, it's just way out. I mean, it's gotten to the point where the yin and the yang are, you know, driving it. But that said, dead center seems dead at this point. Dead center from the standpoint. I tell you one thing.

There's more people that believe, like, I think, like I do, more of a centrist looking at what's the best idea. I want people that will put their country before the party. If you're going into the political official being a fame and fortune, then you're chasing for your own personal goal. You're not chasing it for helping basically the country. And so term limits, maybe give us more of a clarity to that. Maybe we can fix some of the other problems. But you throw away all the guardrails. And I know they keep going back to the filibuster.

You start throwing away what few guardrails we have. You've got nothing. You've got nothing that will be flip-flopping back and forth, no different than countries around the world who have no standing. We don't care about the finances of our country anymore. But if we lose the reserve currency of the world being the U.S. dollar, we've got serious problems, serious, serious financial problems. Playing with crypto the way they're playing with, it's wrong,

I think dead wrong for our country and for the world. So how do you solve that? I mean, I could quote Yates to you. I mean, things fall apart. The center cannot hold. Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world. The blood dim tide is loose in everywhere the ceremony of innocence is drowned. How do you get to the center then?

If you're in the dead center and it feels dead. Let me ask this. Do you think that, I mean, what I was looking at and what I saw a couple, two, three years ago? And we kept seeing all the way up until we really got hot and heavy into this past 20-24 election year that every point, show the people for ripe for a centrist. They were ripe for that. They were ripe for, let's say, a person who had been associated as a Democrat, one had been associated as a Republican to put a team together and basically commit to one four-year term. We're going to bring our country back together and look at both sides, the best of both sides, trying to bring that back to the middle.

Okay? With that have worked, it looked like it could, in theory. It looked like it could when polling was done. But when you start trying to get on the ballot, the way the system has been weaponized. The duopoly that we have right now, the Democrat model and the Republican model, is based on fear and hatred. So trying to get in on the ballots was something that was almost impossible when it came down to it closer and closer to making the decision to run or not. Could we put a team together? Who would that team be? We were getting looking at different people that have interest and had the ability to do it. But then saying, wait a minute, I don't want to be a part of a team that's going to be looked as a basically a spoiler. I don't want to

be going down in history that because of you being involved or me being involved or anyone else that this party basically through the election one way or the other, you get blamed for it. I mean, if there could have been a way to have truly a legitimate way to get on the platform and debate and said, does this make sense to you what we're doing, you know. So what for 2020? Now it seems like don't worry about spoilers, right? Don't, it's spoiled. Oh, yeah. I think from that standpoint now,

2028 will be a whole different. So it seems to me most people in the center are just giving up. That's the problem. Okay. That's all I can tell you, no. I'm not going to change. I know you were asking, why did I leave the Democratic Party or why I thought it left me?

I just couldn't go home to the people I represented and having a D, a Washington D, on my name and saying I'm representing you when they don't believe that the National Democratic Party is representing a rural poor state I just got to be honest with you

it's kind of hard to have that conversation you also didn't put an R on there no I couldn't do that because you know what I didn't like what you're seeing now I didn't like a lot of that I think I can work better from the center than I could have a D or an R because I think there's some things

that both sides do I want the Democrats to be that compassion they've always been. But responsible. You can't put roadblocks in front of me, put so many restrictions on me. I can't even breathe. The Constitution says, you have the right to the pursuit of happiness. Me taking the oath to the Constitution is going to protect you, have that right for your pursuit of happiness. You find your happiness anyway, and I'll do it. Even if it's something I don't believe, and just don't make me believe I'm wrong if I don't believe in what you want.

So is there anyone you see out there? Oh, I see a lot of good people, I think. Name one from every party. Boy, you mean from every party? For two parties, right now. I wish we had. I wish we had more party. I know you're a secret mom, Donnie fan, but go ahead.

Oh, yeah. Talking to people about affordability. You talk about affordability. That's an interesting one there, but we'll see what happens. The thing of it is, is that, you know, you have good people. You have a Josh Shapiro who's been able to govern in a kind of a split state. You've got Andy Bashir and a state that really leans more Republican. I've got a little bit of preference towards governors, whether they be Republican or Democrat,

because they've been able to function. Gretchen Woodmarshore seems to be like a very rational person. I don't know Gretchen that well. I know Josh and I know Andy better than I know. And a Republican, you would pick? The Republican, there's some really interesting people out there in the Republican. I'm not in that circle as much as I will. wasn't the Democrats before, but some of the governors they have out there have been very

rational, reasonable. Mitt Romney was always a person I could work with very closely. Lisa Murkowski, some of these people here are unbelievable to work with, and Susan Collins who ends up right now. I pray for the sake of the Senate that Susan Collins wins again. I don't think anyone's going to be able to replace the Susan Collins the way she approaches the problems and willing to look at the facts, and that's why she's so good. So, final question. Would you say you're optimistic in the middle or pessimistic right now? Boy, I'm always, I've been an optimistic person.

I'm a realist also, and I understand how difficult it is. But I'm optimistic that basically we've been able to reach and pull ourselves out every time we've had challenges. And again, we'll go back to how we started about the angels, you know, the special angels that we all have in us. I think everyone has good in them. I don't think you go through the process of getting elected in the public. I today, and not have the desire to serve. In West Virginia, I've always said, a person can shake your hand, look in your eye and see your soul.

So it's hard to BS them. And I'm hoping they still have that gut instinct now. We've got to get people with character, good people that really want to be there for the right reason. And if they won't self-govern themselves, then put the term limits on them. That would be the best way. All right.

I really appreciate it, Senator Mansion. Do you call yourself Senator Mansion? I'm Joe. Joe. Let me give you, I'll give you one little tip bit, everybody. When you meet a person who's had a title or still has a title because of their position being elected, point of whatever they may be, if they introduce themselves by their title before the name, 99% of the time you're going to have a problem. They think more about the power of the job than the person they've become or the person they were. Yeah, that's a very good tip.

All right. Thank you so much. Thank you. Hi, everyone. Just a reminder from now on, our full shows will also be available on YouTube. So check out our channel on with Kara Swisher. Sorry if I'm wearing t-shirts, but that's what you're going to get. Today's show was produced by Christian Castro Roussel, Kateri Yocum, Michelle Alloy, Megan Bernie, and Kaelin Lynch.

Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer podcast. Special thanks to Catherine Barner. Our engineers are Fernando Arruda and Rick Kwan, and our theme music is. by trackademics. If you're already following the show, you know all the words to take me home, country roads. If not, the beast is slouching towards Bethlehem waiting to be born. So get out of the way. Go wherever you listen to podcast, search for On with Kara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On With Caras Swisher from Podium Media, New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Monday with more.

Thank you.