On with Kara Swisher - Julia Louis-Dreyfus on Doing Death, Truth-Telling in Comedy and Getting Wiser

Episode Date: June 17, 2024

Actor Julia Louis-Dreyfus is most famous for her comedic TV characters Elaine Benes in Seinfeld and Veep’s Selina Meyer. But in recent years, Louis-Dreyfus has been showing her dramatic chops, including in her latest film Tuesday, in which she takes on grief, denial and death. She's also been winning awards as the host of her podcast Wiser Than Me. Kara and Julia discuss how in-depth conversations with iconic older women have radicalized her, her concerns about the commercialization of art films and why she thinks comedy is risky - but still very much possible. Questions? Comments? Email us at [e-mail] or find Kara on Instagram/Threads as @karaswisher Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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and reason through hard problems better than any model before. You can discover how Claude can transform your business at anthropic.com slash Claude. Hi, everyone, from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. This is On with Kara Swisher, and I'm Kara Swisher. We've had a slew of power women on on, and today we're keeping up that streak.

Comedian and actor Julie Louis-Dreyfus. She's obviously a comedy legend. I'm an enormous fan. She's won 11 Emmys, a record of eight. She got for playing some of TV's most iconic female characters on three different sitcoms. Elaine Bennis in Seinfeld, Christine Campbell in The New Adventures of Old Christine, and of course,

Vice President Selina Meyer in Veep. I don't know which one I like the most. I like all the characters. I suspect Selina's my favorite character because she's real, actually. I've met people like her. But my kids like Seinfeld. I love Seinfeld. It stays fresh even today. And she's probably my favorite character on that show besides Jerry Stiller. And her scene, if you haven't seen it, it's on YouTube of her and Jerry Stiller cracking each other up is one of the finest bits of comedy I've ever seen. She's been honored with the Mark Twain Prize for American humor and the National Medal of Arts.

She is a national treasure, obviously. And now she's winning awards for her new podcast, Wiser Than Me, where she gets life lessons from women over 70. Jane Fonda, Fran Lebowitz, Gloria Steinem, Patti Smith, Anne Lamott, who I also recently spoke to. They've talked about what they've learned and how they've coped with the hard stuff, including death and grief, which is also the focus of Julia's latest film, Tuesday. And so fittingly, our question this week comes from psychotherapist and host of Where Should I Begin podcast, Esther Perel. I'm excited to talk to her and I think you'll be excited to hear from her.

Hi. Hi, Cara. How are you doing? Thank you so much for doing this. It is on. Hi. Hi, Cara. How you doing? Thank you so much for doing this. I appreciate it. Oh, my goodness. It's my pleasure.

The movie was astonishing, I have to say. You were fantastic in it. Oh, thank you very much. And I love anything about death, so I'm very excited about it. Yeah, I do too, actually. But first, I want to talk about the podcast, your podcasting empire. Hardly. Oh, you're doing really well. You just wrapped up the second season of Wiser Than Me, which you interview women over 70. A lot of celebrities have podcasts these days, obviously. A lot of them are different from yours. For example, I think Smart List is basically a

buddy comedy. Talk about how you decided to do this and the way you conceived of it. Well, I watched the Jane Fonda documentary. I don't know if you've seen it. Sure have. Yeah. Yeah. It's phenomenal in my view. And I was just riveted.

And after watching that, I really did think, oh God, where are all the old women? We're not hearing from these women. I mean, we are really not hearing from them. And I wish there was a place where we could just only hear from old women. And so that's where it sort of began. And I thought, well, maybe I'll do it. And, you know, and that's how it started. It was born out of curiosity, not any desire to do a podcast necessarily, but just to actually hear from

older women. And then I sort of developed it with my college roommate. And it's been a real labor of love and passion. It's been very popular. It's very high up on the rankings. Were you surprised by that? You know, I was surprised by it because I wasn't really thinking about how it would do. I was just thinking about doing it, if that makes sense. I wasn't going after it with that ambition. That doesn't mean I'm not ambitious, of course, but it really means that I was just trying to think of people that would be interesting to talk to at great length. How do you look at the podcast medium as a way to do that? A lot of people get in it and they get out of it pretty quickly

because it's hard. It's a marathon. It's a real marathon. Yeah. And some make money, some don't, but it can be very lucrative. I've had a really good run in that regard. But how do you look at it as a medium to communicate this? Because there's lots of ways you could have done this. You could have had a talk show, television. Yeah, I know. Well, I mean, I guess because sort of like the conversation we're having now, which feels relaxed.

If you and I were in front of an audience right now and having to talk and I was in hair and makeup and all that crap, it's a different, it's an absolutely different content of conversation. And I actually enjoy talking to people on their podcasts when we sort of get into depth about things because I just find it interesting to communicate that way. Right, conversation. Yes. And so I thought that this medium would be conducive to those kinds of intimate conversations

where we maybe get a little bit more underneath, period. Also, we don't video the podcast at all. So there's no pressure on these women who may have a feeling of self-consciousness because they're older. I'm not suggesting they should, of course, but in case, just to make it as relaxed as possible.

Right, so a conversation, this sort of my dinner with Andre kind of vibe to it. How do you pick the subjects and the approach? Like, what does your goal say with Jane Fonda? You talked to her about ambition. Well, it's really dictated by the women themselves. With my team's help, I do an enormous amount of research in prep so that I can come to this conversation and not squander it. So it's really their lives. And what strikes me as interesting

to delve into, I mean, talking to somebody like Isabel Allende versus Bonnie Raitt or Patti Smith or Beverly Johnson. These are, you know, they've had wildly varied lives from one another. So it's just, it's entirely based on their experience. That said, though, there are a particular set of questions that I love to hear them answer. I mean, I always open by asking how old they are and how old do they feel? And there are all these subjects that I'd like to delve into, like loss, for example, ambition. And then at the end, I might say things

like, you know, what would you say to your 21-year-old self? Or, you know, what do you wish you'd said no or yes to? That kind of thing. Yeah. So you talked about being radicalized by these women, or more radicalized by these women. I think that was the quote. Who have you been most influenced by and what surprised you in the interviews, which you didn't expect? I don't know. Isabel Allende is a crack up. I don't know what. Well, Isabel Allende, oh my God, what a phenomenal human being. I was struck by her complete joy in life. I was overcome by it. And she talked about being in her 80s as being the best thing ever, and she meant it.

I have a very good life. I'm very happy. Oh, God. I'm so happy, Julia, really. I'm happy to be alive. I'm very happy. Oh, God. I'm so happy, Julia, really. I'm happy to be alive. I'm happy to be here. I'm happy to be looking through my window right now. I live very close to a lagoon, and I see the ducks and the geese, and it's fantastic.

What do you think the best part about being your age is? That you don't have to please anybody. Oh, yeah. Only the people you love and the people you care for. But not the world, not everybody else. You don't have to follow anybody's lead. You don't have to follow fashion or nothing. If I try to look good, it's because it pleases me,

not because I'm trying to please anybody else. I don't care, really. And that was just like, oh, my God. It was a completely different lens through which to consider aging. Gloria Steinem, who I spoke to for this season, obviously was just extraordinary. She actually talked about how as you age, and I'm going to butcher this, she was talking about how as you age, your inner girl becomes more realized. Do you think that women become more radical as they get older? more radical as they get older? I suppose nothing is true all the time, but I do think it's possible that it's often true because we outlive the stereotypical expectations

of marriage and family and the subordinate role, if that's still around or, you know. I mean, I think just as we are maybe more ourselves when we're before 10 or 11 years old and we're little girls who are climbing trees and saying, you know, I know what I want, I know what I think, and the feminine role hasn't descended upon us yet, we may also be more ourselves at the other end of the feminine role. And I always think it would be great if an army of gray-haired women could take over the earth. Well, then the earth would be a safe place, in my view.

It would be better. It would be much better. It would be much better. There is a theme with all of these women, all of them, which is a shedding of what's expected of you as a woman, which is particularly fascinating to me and important to realize. Yeah, I believe the technical term is no more fucks left to give. Thank you. But it's not necessarily a negative thing, right?

Yeah. No, it's fantastic. It's like I am, there's less bullshit. I say what I feel. I say what I feel. I know what I know. I know more. And that's the whole conceit of the podcast. They know more.

So come on, let's listen to them. Let's listen to them. Come on, woman. We'll get to your movie. Come on, woman. That was the best end line, I have to say. One of the things that I think the reason it works, this is a lot about you and how it changes your thinking, whether it's about the movie industry, women's rights,

becoming more political. Have these conversations changed you yourself, given you're looking for wisdom, wiser than me, or is that wisdom being put to use in your own life? Well, I will say that my reflections afterwards, after I actually have these conversations, I think a lot about them. And I will often, or most often, write with my husband the story at the beginning of the podcast that sort of will be a thread into the conversation. And so I would say certainly it's, I don't know if this is good or not, but it's, I've always been a very private person in a lot of ways. And I've made a bit of a shift in terms of sharing aspects of myself. I don't know if I'm ultimately going to regret that.

But I have done that in a way that I find surprising. Right. You realize you don't have that much time for regret anymore, so it's okay. It's fine if you let them out. But you also call your mom and talk to her about them. Oh, yeah. How does that go? Well, this occurred to me to do when we were developing the show because my mother is very intelligent, curious.

She's completely with it. She's 90. And she has been my beloved mother. I don't know what else to say. And she's very intellectual. And so I thought, my God, of all the women, I must, I must include my mother in this in some way. So the idea of downloading with my mom feels right because I download with my mom and I enjoy her. I thought maybe people would enjoy, and she's getting a huge kick out of it.

Yeah. Would you bring her on? I don't believe you have, correct? I think that would be, I'm waiting for that one, honestly. You are? That's something I'm considering, I suppose. I think you have to. I've had my son and my brother on and stuff.

They've been some of the most popular ones, which is interesting. Really? Especially my son. He's very wise for a young person. But I would love to hear your mom and her thoughts on it. I think it would be really good. Because she's a character in your podcast. I mean, podcasts are about characters.

In any case, we got a question this week from someone who's a fan of your podcast. Psychotherapist Esther Perel hosted the podcast, Where Should I Begin? I don't know if you listened to it. It's fantastic. And you'll hear her question for you. Oh, God. It's okay. And you'll hear her question for you. Oh, God. It's okay. Hello, Julie-Louise Dreyfus.

So much of your work on the podcast is about starting conversation that the world needs to listen in on. And that really resonates with me. me. How do you think about the role of community, of the collective, in working through some of the very issues that you are processing on the show? The importance of the collective in addressing aging or loss or love or grief, hope, desire. What is the relationship between the I and thou in the process, in the processing of such complicated existential wonders? Thank you. She's a therapist. She's a well-known therapist.

I know, I know. And she's a fantastic. Kara, you answer it. Are you not smart enough? I'm a dumbass. No, you are not. You said that to me. I couldn't understand her. You are'm a dumbass. No, you are not. You said that to me. I couldn't understand her.

You are not a dumbass. Stop. No, I'm making a joke. I know I'm not a dumbass. But, well, I mean, to be honest with you, I think she answered the question in her question. She was talking about community and the collective, the we, in terms of dealing with issues and addressing loss and love and so on and so forth? And the answer is, yes, the collective is the way out. I think actually her question speaks to something that's come out of these conversations, actually, particularly with my mother, which is

the key is connect, connect, connect. I don't mean plug your computer in. I mean connect with human beings. There's everything to be said for community and everything not to be said about isolation. And we're in a land of isolation now, which is paralyzing and toxic. So I think there's nothing but value in finding ways to take action to connect with other people in every sense.

I think people are desperate for it. Desperate for it. And agreement. One of the reasons I always say one of my podcasts, Pivot Works, is because I'm connecting with a man who I disagree with in a way that's kind. And we disagree a lot. And people are desperate for that. They're desperate. They're desperate for a kind conversation. It's funny. I remember once, this is neither here nor there, but it was a while back and I was by myself. It was a weekend where I sort of didn't have plans

and my husband wasn't there and I was sort of alone. And I remember that I went to the grocery store and I found myself having an in-depth conversation with the checkout woman at the register. And I started asking her questions about her life. And I realized what afterwards, what was happening, which was, it was, it was, I was lonely and I was, became very, very interested in her life. Why wouldn't I be interested? Everybody has an interesting life, but I remember noting that, like, oh, that's interesting.

I really sought a human being out. No, it's an important story. Years ago, you know what? Your podcast reminds me of Spalding Gray did a show at the Kennedy Center many years ago where he brought people from the audience and just interviewed them just randomly. And it was brilliant because he said everyone's story is interesting if you just talk to them. And it was, you know, he had his own troubles, as you know, how his life ended. But it was the most riveting conversations I've ever seen.

And that's what you're talking about here. And that's what I'm talking about. And by the way, that's something my mother does. And to sometimes great frustration to me and my sisters, because she'll talk to anybody and ask them everything. And as a result, she's a vibrant human being. But it does mean it takes a while to get out of any situation. We'll be back in a minute. Fox Creative.

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their investment approach, what learnings what differentiates their investment approach, what learnings have shifted their career trajectories, and how do they find their next great idea. Invest 30 minutes in an episode today. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Published by Capital Client Group, Inc. So speaking of connection, let's talk about Tuesday, dealing with existentialism and grief. Just to let people know, this is not a comedy, but it is funny in many ways. It's actually very funny. Giant Julie Louise Dreyfuss is my favorite.

Julie Louise Dreyfuss. You handle your tallness really well, but also, and smallness. You didn't like smallness much but the you going through the grass as a tiny thing was oh I felt the borrowers all over again anyway um but it's about death literally in the form of a talking macaw I believe that's the bird I have not seen a movie like this in I think for some reason the John Malkovich movie was the last one it reminded me of of the feelings I had during it. It's obviously a fantasy.

It's surreal in many ways. It feels, you know, like a Garcia Marquez book or something like that. Can you talk a little bit what attracted you and the reason for taking it on? So, the script was sent to me by A24, and it was crazy bananas, this script. But the themes of the film, the parent-child bond, grief, loss, death, dying, acceptance, denial, all of these themes are incredibly interesting to me as a human being. And so then I met with Dinah O. Puchik, who is the writer-director, Croatian woman. This is her first feature film. And I met with her just to get a sense, of course, of who she was and what her intentions were and if I felt comfortable in her hands.

And I came away feeling very trusting of her and signed up. God, you know, she's quite an artist. I'm sure I know you'll be hearing more from her as a filmmaker. And the animation, of course, it was paramount that the animation within the film was expert. Of the bird. Yes. But I do want to say that within the film, as you say, there's this sort of monster-like bird macaw thing that is representing death. And a lot of people think that was just CGI. In fact, it was not. It was

played by an extraordinary actor, Irinze Kene. He was a cast member with us. And then what the animators did was they used his performance and animated over him. And so I always like to give a shout out to Irinze because you're not actually necessarily seeing him, but you actually are very much seeing him. Yeah, it's interesting. It's like in Lord of the Rings. Because he was there. In that conversation you had at the table, I was like, the actor is sitting there with you. Correct.

That's what I thought. That's what I figured. Amazing. Amazing performance, by the way. And disturbing at the same time, but also very funny. A very funny bird. But in the movie, a mother and daughter basically having a conversation with death and about death together. You've been through a cancer treatment. You're a parent. I've had a stroke. My dad died.

Talk about what you draw to understand about the depths of grief, because in this case, you're dealing with someone else's death or impending death. Well, I've also lost people close to me. I've lost my dad. I lost my sister. And so, yeah, I'm certainly keenly aware of our mortal lives. So I brought all of that with me to this.

But I think the first thing that really appealed to me about this was the ferocity of the parent-child bond, which it's undeniable and it's enormous. And so I enjoyed that aspect of the script, the lengths that a mother would go to to keep death away. And it really explores that, including, by the way, denial, denial of a reality. Yes, not being there. Yes. Not being there.

I mean, you know, it's interesting. When I heard the description of it, I almost didn't want to watch it because I have kids. And the idea of, I just, I... I know. You know what I mean? It's one of those things that I was thinking the other day right before I watched it. I'm like, totally, I have so many kids, I've upped my chances of being upset. You know what I mean? Like, I don't know why it popped into my brain. But one of the things, the grief of knowing you're going to lose someone. Now, we know that with older people, but it's harder. Your character Zora tries to avoid her daughter, selling off bits and pieces of their beautiful things. And then you go to the other extreme, which is barbecuing and trying to eat death, literally, being forced by death to confront it. Can you talk a little bit about that, a little more about the parent-child bond? Because your character is at the center of that, and your child is kind of the,

Zora is really the child in the relationship in a weird way. Right. That's what is the dysfunction. Certainly at the start of the film is Zora's daughter, whose name is Tuesday, is really parenting her mother. And the journey, well, there are many journeys within the film, but one of the biggest journeys, I think, is the flip. So that by the end of the film, Zora comes to realize how she must parent her child in a functional way, which includes accepting the realities of her

situation. One of the things that's striking is not knowing the pain her daughter is in, not being aware of the pain until she can hear her as having eaten death. So she has this hearing. Yeah. Well, she has a, I mean, it's very symbolic. It's very metaphorical. It's because of the transformation that happens. We're talking

about this in such a way, I hope it's clear to people listening, because what Zora does is she fights death in an effort to keep death away, and then ultimately sort of becomes... Death, she is. She learns by doing death. She learns by doing. And then realizes that as death, she has to come to her daughter. Oh my God, I can't stand, even saying it, it still upsets me. I can't stand it. Yeah, it's like a death doula in a weird way. Yes, which of course there is, which I think is remarkable. And God, I think about that a lot. When I talked with Isabel Allende, and we're talking about this thing called death,

and I was remarking, because I had actually the gift with him was not dissimilar from waiting for some child to be born for a birth. And the similarity in those transitions are similar. And I'm not suggesting that one is as joyful as the other, but they are from a life living point of view. I was very, and she was talking about that as well. Well, what's interesting about it is she becomes joyful when she's doing death, right? That night of putting people at rest, the people screaming in the background

and you don't get to see a lot of it except for a couple of scenes was very funny, even though it wasn't funny. Do you know what I mean? I know. Like, ah! And the bird, bang, bang, bang. I was in hysterics with that. I was like, oh, that's what would happen if death went away.

Death took a holiday, right? Speaking of which. But she gets joyful by doing death. Would you like to have that power? Would you ever? Fuck no. Are you kidding me? Really?

I kind of would. You would? Kara, really? Yeah, because it's kind. It's a kindness. That macaw isn't cruel. That macaw is kind. That's too much for me to bear.

Yeah? The pain. I can't handle it. I pass on that job opportunity in real life. All right. Okay. All right. Well, you can do the life part. They're linked together. So one of the things, I have just one more question about the movie, and then I want to talk a little bit about your longer career. But you finished this movie three years ago, as I said. Looking back, does the idea of come on woman still resonate? Well, actually actually it's get up, woman. Get up, woman.

Excuse me, get up, woman. Sorry. And yes, it's almost a mantra. I think it works. It certainly applies to my life. What's the alternative? You've got to get up. You've got to keep, I mean, we have a limited amount of time. Let's go.

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it's easier than ever to be a marketer. Get started at HubSpot.com slash marketers. I want to talk a little bit about your career in comedy. You made a joke at the Mark Twain Award in 2018 about being a dramatic actress. That was part of the bit. Damn you, Peter Hall. What a mistake. But it would be hard not to finish up with a legacy as a comedic actress. We met at the award show where you won the Webby Podcast of the Year for Wiser Than Me. But in your long television career, you've won 11 Emmys.

You're one of the few actors who has played not one but three iconic television characters, Elaine Bennis, Christine Campbell, and Vice President Selina Meyer. How do you look at each character now? And to me, this is just me, and you could have a different take. I'm just an audience member. They have a common as a need to be in the boys club. Am I getting that wrong? And all kidding aside, would it have been easier to be Portia? and all kidding aside, would have been easier to be Portia. Well, I mean, all of the characters, the thread between them all is profound frustration, I think is, and of course, aren't you frustrated sometimes? I mean, as a woman, isn't that, you know, it's like frustration is kind of, for me, a driver and it certainly is with all of these

women. And I would say, you know, Selina Meyer in the most obvious and, and sort of ultimate of ways. Yeah. But you know that in that Mark Twain, uh, speech, and I was talking about being a dramatic actress and, you know, the truth is truth is that I really do enjoy doing drama. And it's actually why I took on this role, because I wanted to exercise that muscle again and have an opportunity to show that this is in my wheelhouse. So that joke about the quality of mercy is not strained was actually born out of a true place, truth be told. I'm not going to wade you into the Seinfeld controversy, because I think that has nothing to do with you. But I'd love to know what you think is funny

now. Everyone seems to have a theory, obviously. But what do you think is funny right at this moment we're in? That question's funny. I think there's a lot of talk about how comics can't be funny now. I think that's not true. I think comics are funnier than ever. No, that's bullshit. I think that's bullshit.

Physical comedy and intellectual comedy and political comedy I think has never been more interesting because there's so much to do. Well, yes, it's a ripe time. You know, comedy is risky, and it can be offensive. But that's what makes it so enjoyable. Not that it's offensive, but that it's risky,

that it can be very truth-telling and with risk. I just, I don't buy the conceit. It can be very truth-telling and with risk. I personally don't buy the conceit that this is an impossible time to be funny. Maybe some people aren't laughing at your jokes, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be made. So one of the things, Elaine is known, for example, with the physical moves, although the dry retorts or the shoves or the dance but also the retorts and Selena to me is all feral facial expressions and wicked verbal cuts

is it harder to do physical or intellectual comedy? They're of equal strain the physical comedy sometimes, in my experience, is stuff that I've often found in rehearsal. So it takes a little exploring to find it. But I wouldn't say that it's hard. I just,

I would say it's as much fun. Yeah. There's nothing more exciting than having really good material and then elevating it, if you can. And if you do it physically, it's just delish. Absolutely. I have a couple more questions. Seinfeld in particular, for example, which I think you'll probably be best known for, even though I preferred Veep. I know it sounds – I love Seinfeld, too. But it's having this renaissance on Netflix. A lot of young people are watching the show.

My son was like, have you heard of Seinfeld? I'm like, yeah. Why do you think it holds up and that younger generations are connecting? Well, I don't know why that it's having this resurgence. I'm delighted that it is. It holds up because it's the human condition. It's undeniably funny it wasn't uh

fad ish it speaks to really universal truths and um period it's just like a great show and it'll always be a great show is there a show if you had to introduce someone to it that you would show them first there's obviously the famous you had to introduce someone to it, that you would show them first? There's obviously the famous ones, Not That There's Anything Wrong With That, Master of Your Own Domain. Is there any show you would say, let's look at this one? Well, I don't know. Probably something from seasons four or five when we started to really get our stride. It's interesting to watch the show because, not that I do, I don't really watch the show, but when it first started, it was slow by comparison. And the pace started to pick up and it became more, it just became snappier as it went along.

Maybe the Soup Nazi. The Soup Nazi was a good one. I think the Briss was one of my favorites. Oh, really? That's hilarious. There's so many. The Subway episode. But one of the things that's interesting is Netflix really paid more than $500 million for the Seinfeld rights for five years.

The contract started in 2021. Did you see any of that money? Not one cent. Okay. How do you feel about that? Fantastic. I would love you to go on about that. Alana Glazier, who was pretty critical about streaming services. What's your take? You're going into AI next for free, just so you know, but go ahead. Good, because I know nothing about it. Look, here's my take on all of this. I'm worried about the corporatization of arts.

For example, this movie I made Tuesdays with A24, one of the very few, if not the last, remaining independent studio making unusual films. I'm worried about that because it's now a lot of executives calling. And there have always been these executives, but they haven't been on top of each other like a layer cake. And I'm very worried about what that represents for good art outside the box because we're not making widgets here. Good ideas are often, well, well first of all they're hard

to find and they i can tell you one thing they're not found by a corporation good art artful ideas in my view yeah even though you're a network note according to jerry feinstein well that was very funny yeah that was funny that was fantastic um in 2020, you signed an overall deal with Apple TV Plus to develop new products as executive producer and actor. You've been producer on many of your shows. What does that mean exactly, and how does the deal differ from the ones you've cut over the past three decades? really like to, I didn't produce Tuesday, for example, but I do very much like to produce the work that I do because it just gives me more control over the product. And I've been doing this now long enough so that I think I have experience that's useful as a producer. And so that's important to me. I no longer have this deal at Apple. It ran out, it was finished.

And, um, you know, to be honest with you, I mean, they're all perfectly nice, but nothing came out of it and that was too bad, but it just didn't, which is often the case with deals like this. So what do you do now? Do you, you, you go bring your projects, your production company? I don't even, no, I don't want, I don't want the headache of that right now. I just don't. I'd rather do things on a case-by-case basis. I mean, I'm guessing probably, yes, I could have a production company. I could be developing material for myself or other people. That's not something ultimately that excites me. It's too much. I don't need a huge universe like that. I'm not Oprah. You're not going to Reese Witherspoon it, for instance.

I'm not going to. And this is not my way to disparage them in any way. I'm just saying that's not who I am. I approach projects very specifically, and that's how I roll. That's how I roll. May I ask what you're doing next? I don't know. Well, you've got a success story. I just finished a Marvel movie. Yeah, my son wants to know why you're in the Marvel movies.

You turn into a villain from what he tells me. Well, I'm not allowed to say, Cara, because as you know, let me explain to you something. The Marvel Universe, if you're in it, you have to sign an NDA every three and a half minutes. And so if I say anything to you right now, a Marvel executive will come

and shoot me in the head as I'm speaking to you. And possibly shoot you. He can try. He can try. Yeah, you'll take him on good. I'll take him on good. Are you kidding?

But anyway, I did wrap Thunderbolts, and so that is that I have coming out next year. But in terms of like, what am I shooting next? I'm not sure. I don't know. So let me ask just two more, three more questions very quick. Politics. You're a moderator at the 2020 Democratic Convention,

which is some very good jokes, some of which apparently they cut. You can comment on that if you'd like. It was broadcast news to the 10th power doing that thing. I am here to tell you. It was cuckoo bananas. It was COVID. The DNC talking to comedy writers, talking to, I mean, it was nuts.

Fun. Ultimately, I was delighted to have done it, although terrified. Yeah, so what are you doing this go-round? There's a campaign happening. I don't know yet. I don't know if you know that. What? There's a campaign happening, presidential. Oh, really?

And who's running, Kara? It's a rerun. Oh, I've seen that. No, Cara? It's a rerun. Oh, I've seen that. Not like this. Not like this. It could be worse. It could be worse. I don't know. Could it be worse? Yes. I just interviewed Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez last week, and she was like, I'll be arrested. As if it was like Tuesday, speaking of Tuesday.

Yeah, and she quite meant it. But do you want to get involved in politics? I am involved, yeah. I mean, at this point, not specifically with the convention, but I'm involved politically. I do a lot of work in down ballot races, in small races, and state legislatures and so on. And I'm continuing to do that, really with a vengeance as we speak. Down ballot is the thing now. It is.

It's a lifeline, I think, to saving democracy. Absolutely. So I have two more questions at the end. I want to go back to Tuesday and Weiser. In the end of the film, there's a question of whether heaven or God or the afterlife exists or not, and the bird says something amazing.

But there is an afterlife. The echo you leave. The legacy. Your memory. This. This is Tuesday's afterlife. How you live it is how she lives. What do you think of that? What's your echo? Besides an Oscar, obviously, and the Oscar goes to. I don't, my echo? Well, I'm going to say something very Pollyanna-ish.

My echo? Well, I'm going to say something very Pollyanna-ish. My echo is my two boys and them being good human beings and good citizens. If they are, then my echo is good and pure. That's my answer, period. This other crap doesn't matter. Yeah, I just gave that answer to someone. They were surprised. I was like, that's the only thing. Why would you be surprised? It's so fundamental. I know. I was like, just them. That's it. Just them, of course. None of this other stuff is meaningful in the same way.

It's interesting, but not meaningful. You're right. The last question. You start every episode of your podcast with a story about your life. I think you should continue to do that. I know you're private, but I think it resonates with people. It resonates with me, certainly. Are you writing a memoir? No, I'm not.

If you did, what would the title be? The title would be, what should the title be? Question mark. That's the title. Okay. All right. I think you should. I just pulled that out of my ass. I like it. I like it. I like it. I like it. Anyway, thank you so much for doing this. I appreciate it. And I do hope you do win the Oscar. Thank you, Kara. Might be nice.

You're so nice. Might be nice. I'm so happy to be on this, to talk with you, because I listen to your podcasts frequently. And so to actually have this conversation, in-depth conversation with you, has been really a delight for me. So thanks a lot. I appreciate it. Thank you so much. On with Kara Swisher is produced by Christian Castro-Russell, Kateri Yochum,

Jolie Myers, and Megan Burney. Special thanks to Kate Gallagher, Andrea Lopez-Cruzado, and Kate Furby. Our engineers are Rick Kwan and Fernando Arruda. And our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, go ahead and do the Elaine Bennis dance. If not, get up, woman and man. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On with Kara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher

from New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Thursday with more. We'll be back on Thursday with more. the city-sized crossover vehicle that's been completely revamped for urban adventure. From the design and styling to the performance, all the way to features like the Bose Personal Plus sound system, you can get closer to everything you love about city life in the all-new, reimagined Nissan Kicks. Learn more at www.nissanusa.com slash 2025 dash kicks. Available feature, Bose is a registered trademark of the Bose Corporation. Do you feel like your leads never lead anywhere? And you're making content that no one sees.

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