On with Kara Swisher - Kara on Elon and John Legend on Kanye (and More!)

Episode Date: November 3, 2022

Kara and Nayeema kick off this Thursday’s episode with a feisty discussion about Elon Musk’s Twitter and how he’s “kicking the most active users in the teeth.” They give us the run-down inside Elon’s band of merry advisors and Nayeema gets to the heart of why exactly Kara is so angry with Elon … and so sad. Today’s interview is with John Legend, the Emmy, Grammy, Oscar and Tony-winning artist (aka EGOT) who famously moonlights as a social justice activist. But before he was John Legend, he was John Roger Stephens: born to a socially conservative family, sent to an Ivy League university at age 16, and dabbling as a nerdy strategy consultant before his big break. In fact, the first person to credit him as “John Legend” was Kanye West. In this conversation, Kara and John speak about Kanye’s descent into antisemitism and how he makes sense of a friend he’s long last touch with. They also discuss how TikTok has changed the music business, and why John is so hyper-focused on politics and down-ballot midterm races (no, the artist has no plans to run for political office – he’s just downright worried about the country). Trigger warning: Kara does not hold back on her anger about Twitter and Elon these days, especially at the very end – so make sure you stay tuned for her final choice words ... or, as she calls it, her “rant!”  Disclosure: John Legend is on the board of directors at Vox Media. This did not change the nature of our interview. In fact, Kara started with what were probably the hardest questions for him. You can find Kara and Nayeema on Twitter @karaswisher and @nayeema.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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visibility at Indeed.com slash podcast. Just go to Indeed.com slash podcast right now and say you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need to hire? you need Indeed. Hi, everyone. From New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network, this is Fox and Friends with less Fox and actually fewer friends, too. Just kidding. This is On with Kara Swisher, and I'm Kara Swisher. And I'm Naima Raza.

I'm the one friend. Oh, I have a lot of friends. I do have a lot of friends. I do. How are you doing? Are you feeling better? A little bit. I have this RSV, which my kids had it, and then I got it.

It's not as bad for adults, but I wouldn't recommend it. Try to avoid it if you can, everybody. Okay, we shall try. Our guest today is the musician John Legend. I love John Legend. I know you do. Ordinary People was a college hit song for me. Was it? All of Me, I think, is one of the most romantic songs,

which he wrote about his wife, Chrissy Teigen. Scott Galloway hates his music, but likes him as a person. He went on on Pivot the other day about that. I agree with you. I'm on your side. I love John Legend. I don't take music tips from Scott Galloway. Yeah, that's true. Only fashion tips from him. Yeah, the guy who thinks Def Leppard are geniuses. Anyway, whatever. We should also disclose that the musician is on the board of Vox. We give him no special treatment. No special treatment. In fact, we talked to him about Kanye, which we'll get to in a second. But before we get there, let's talk about someone who I think you've said is 10 steps from Kanye, Elon Musk. Well, you know, it's a downward spiral. I've been talking about it a lot on Twitter.

I really, I have some problems because I have been supportive of this man, and I find it really depressing what's happening right now. And it's performative and ridiculous and juvenile and cruel, even. And so it's a problem. Okay, well, I'm interested to talk to you about it, because I feel we are moving in different directions on the spectrum, actually, where I'm actually curious about what Elon is doing from a business perspective. So Matt Levine changed my mind a little bit. See? We'll get to that in a second.

But Elon has canceled this much-anticipated all-hands meeting that was supposed to have happened on Wednesday. We think the layoffs are still coming. They're supposedly coming on Friday. Supposedly Friday, yeah. Yeah. But lots of people have been leaving, firing resignations. And Elon's been busy. He has this new kind of troop around him. So I want to talk about the small band of advisors. Some have called them sycophants. I want to know if that's the case. You know some of these characters.

I would prefer to use the term suck up, if you want. There are a couple people, two of whom I know very well, one I've encountered many times over the years, including some problematic companies. He had David Sachs, who has since sort of struck himself as a cancel culture warrior. But before that, he ran some companies. He was obviously at PayPal. He's been riding on that for many years now. He's been riding on that for many years now. But he was very integral to getting rid of Chessa Boudin, who was the San Francisco district attorney, and some other things. And now he's giving foreign policy advice again. It's this sort of Silicon Valley venture capitalist slash international man of information, and I think he's unqualified completely. So what's his relationship to Elon? Why is he selected, David Sachs? You know, they've been close over the years. He hasn't, Elon hasn't been close to the other PayPal people as much. Yeah, the PayPal mafia. They merged his

company x.com into PayPal. So David was on for that ride and one of the key people there, no question. He's a very savvy business person, but really, really, I find him to be a very toxic. He's like a Keith Raboy counterpart, right? Yeah, well, I actually like Keith in comparison, I'll be honest with you. Keith at least will engage with you. Keith Raboy tried to get me to take an offer at Stripe in 2014, which I would say would have been a financially intelligent thing to do. Although it still hasn't gone public. Yeah, I don't know if it will. Let's continue with Elon and his band of merry men. They're all men. Jason.

Jason Calacanis. He is someone who was in the media, early tech media, and he and I were one of the few people around at the time in the early online tech media space. And then he was very good at attaching himself to people like Travis Kalanick. I can recall huge arguments he and I would have about Travis as I was walking through San Francisco. I'm like, this guy's a bad hombre. And Jason was like, no, you just don't understand him. I'm like, I think I do. I think you just like to suck up to people. He was very, you know, he was able, but he's been a Tesla fiend forever. He always had a lot of Teslas.

He's, you know, suction cupped himself onto Elon, which is not a surprise. They're very good friends for years. You saw him get in a little trouble with Elon over his syndicating the investment thing in the texts. Sounds like Jason. But doesn't that show that they debate, that they have friction, that Jason could see truth to power? No, no. A slight insult every now and then. No, no. You don't see a lot of pushback. Is there anyone else you think is important to know? I really like Shriram Krishnam. He's an entrepreneur.

He's been around. I went to his wedding. He was Andreessen Horwitz, is that right? He was, but he was at Facebook. He was at Twitter. Smart guy, smart entrepreneur. He was big on Clubhouse for a while. He was one of the first people who did a lot of events there that got a lot of attention.

I like Shriram. I can't imagine he has the power that he needs to. He's sort of going along for the ride. Another person, Kayvon Beckpor, who was the chief product officer, looks like he visited. Yeah, he's been meeting with Elon, reports are. Yeah, that smart guy. So it's an interesting group. And let me just say, they're all men.

They're all men. I'm not, I've heard. He did ask you for your opinion at some point. He did. So I don't think we can call him sexist. Four weeks ago, four weeks ago. And now, but then he sent me another email that was a little more testy when I just,

I didn't even disagree with him, whatever. Now I disagree. That was over the line for me that, and I have a rant later to talk about it. Well, one person seems to be rising from what I can see. And that's Yoel Roth, the head of safety and integrity for Twitter. Yeah, smart guy. And someone who showed nuance in the past, right? Yeah, I like him.

I think he's smart. He's got a tough job, and he's really smart. He's very by-the-facts-ma'am kind of person, and he's always been tried to be transparent, I think. Would you say that Elon is also democratizing his advisory process? Because he is putting tweets out there about Vine Vine and Mr. Beast is replying. I love Mr. Beast. Is this a free-for-all or is this good CEOing? Is he actually open to ideas and inviting them? It's performative. He'll do whatever he wants. It's a good show. It's, you know, it's Shark Tank, whatever. I like Shark Tank, but you know but that's not how you make business decisions.

You use numbers and stuff like that. Lots of other CEOs are very successful without consulting people. And this is the person who does whatever he wants more than anyone. The man of the people thing and that whole lord and ladies thing. Oh, come on. Come on. He said it was the end of the lords and time for the peasants, everyone would pay dollars to get that blue check. The world's most obvious lord is schooling us on elitism, please. So Matt Levine had a very interesting, something that's hung with me, which is here is a person who cares about the product, believes in the product. Sure. Lots of people have said that.

I know. He's obsessed with it. He's obsessed with it. He's obsessed with it, He's obsessed with it. says, is Twitter dying? And then he named all of these top accounts and rarely do any of them engage in the platform. And since then, we've seen Reuters has reported they've reviewed internal studies from Twitter saying that 10% of users make 90% of their content. I'm sure you're in that 10%, Kara. I'm sure you're in that. I am definitely. I'm in the 1%. So is he not actually doing something? Isn't he increasing engagement? I'm not saying it's sustainable or

the best way to do it, but the spectacle. No, he's kicking the most active users in the teeth is what he's doing. That's what he's doing. One, I think he's actually in some way in our new virtual work world, he's in a meeting room with Stephen King and Mr. Beast and you and a bunch of other people engaging in brainstorming on a product. He's not listening to us. He's not listening to us. If you think he's listening, I don't know what to tell you about these people. I'm not necessarily saying he's—I think he's acquiring data. Is that fair? Naima, the first thing he did was tweet a misinformation about gay people.

Come on. Come on. You're talking about the tweet suggesting that Paul Pelosi had been involved intimately with the attacker, which of course was completely untrue and shared from a fake news site. Completely untrue. Why would you do that? You know who you are. It's just ridiculous. I'm sorry. That was enough for me. That was enough. To be clear, I completely agree with you that it was out of line. Beyond out of line. Try to control yourself, but there's no one around him because he's got all these people who laugh and ha ha ha, gay joke, ha ha ha ha, a gay joke, ha. The gays are too sensitive. Oh, where are we? Really? Okay, sure. I love gay lesbian jokes, but that's not funny. It's not

funny. Not when the man gets beaten up. And it's not funny. It's not appropriate for someone so powerful to do that. And he can do it. But again, I'm not saying he couldn't. He shouldn't. You shouldn't really be sharing information from a fake news site. I would say like you shouldn't. Give me a break. Give me a break. So there's a conversation about people paying $8 a month for verification. Are you going to pay, Kara? No, I am not. Are you going to accept it if Vox pays? No, I am not. They're not going to pay. Vox pays? No, I am not. They're not going

to pay. It's my account. They can't pay. I refuse. You refuse to accept? I refuse to accept, to be told I'm myself. I'm not going to, it's not worthwhile to me. It's not worth something. The right wing loses its mind over how much I want this blue check. It's because I'm elite. I could give, I could, I don't care. I'm not going to curse. I could give a fuck. I don't care if I have it or not. I don't care. And I don't care to pay for him to clean up his shitty platform that he overpaid for. If he wants to clean it up, that's, I'm not here to help him paint his fence. I'm not. I already contribute quite a lot. So in the thread, and I thought maybe he should have led with this. He says,

this will also give Twitter a revenue stream to reward content creators. But what if, you know, having that blue checkmark allows you to participate in a profit pool? So all of a sudden, accounts that are relatively dormant, let's say Taylor Swift, who has a big following but never tweets, she has to pay for just the blue tag. But accounts like yours, which are active, you get money for tweeting. It's so de-minimous. Accounts like yours, which are active, you get money for tweeting. And as a result of getting money for tweeting and viewing, he deducts $8 a month. Love to see the plan. I saw you tweeting some ideas for what could be done better or better way to block assholes, I think was one of your ideas. Yeah. Oh, I'd love that. Like mass block.

Give me a group of people who relate and let me mass block them. I'm so pleased that I blocked so many of them, but why am I spending my time doing that? That's sort of like paying for people not to mug you. Like, that's not really even worth it for me either. What can Elon do? Like, what is the business path forward for Elon? He should talk to people who disagree with him. That's what he should do, but that's not happening.

I mean, you should call him, Kara. No. Have you tried? No. You're going to let it be. I'm going to should call him, Kara. No. Have you tried? No. You're going to let it be? I'm going to let it be. Let him come to you? I doubt it.

Why should he? He has so many people licking him up and down. It must be delightful. I mean, you've had such a long relationship with Elon. We have. I think he's one of the visionaries. I do. And you've had a lot of back and forths where there have been moments of not getting along.

Yes. Is this one different? I don't know. The gay thing really, that was I don't know why. I think that this latest week has been really I think this whole deal has been grotesque actually. I just think this whole deal, since the beginning, he's acted

like a giant overprivileged baby and he wasn't ever like that. You sounded angry the other day on Pivot, and now you sound sad. I do. I'm sad. I'm sad. I wish, you know what, I wouldn't put up with, the thing is, I'm hard on Mark Zuckerberg too, but he's not a jerk. He's just not a jerk, but I'm still hard on him because of the business stuff. And in this case, I think he's not a jerk. He's just not a jerk, but I'm still hard on him because of the business stuff. And in this case, I think he's taking a business that I love too, can't afford to

buy like he can, and shoving it down, putting it down into a toxic cesspool, and it makes me upset. I'm sorry you're sad, Kara. I'm not that sad. I have other things to do. You think I don't got new plans? I do. Where is your new plan? Where are you going to go? Can't say. Can't say. But where would you go? What is the best place for people defecting from Twitter to go? Is it LinkedIn? Is now the time to build a competitor to Twitter? Unless it's already built. It sounds like you know something, Kara Swisher. I know a lot of things. Elon Musk is not the only rich entrepreneur in Silicon Valley. That's all I have to say. Where are you going to go, Cara? To a better world.

Come with me if you want to live name. Are we going to the metaverse? I'm going to put on a pair of legs and run with you into the metaverse, Cara. Elon Musk is not the only entrepreneur in Silicon Valley. That's all I will say. Well, with that, let's go to the interview with John Legend. Fox Creative. This is advertiser content from Zelle. When you picture an online scammer, what do you see? For the longest time, we have these images of somebody sitting crouched over their computer

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You know, he's an EGOT, an Emmy, a Grammy, an Oscar, and a, what's the other one? Tony. Tony. You know, he's so multi-talented. He also was discovered by Kanye West, so obviously we'll have a lot to talk about. He came up at the same time as Kanye West and Kanye West was instrumental. Kanye gave him his big break. Well, Lauryn Hill gave him his first big break.

Yes, that's true. But Kanye was kind of, they came up together and they were together. Here's a funny story. A friend of mine was actually his colleague at a consulting firm called BCG. They became roomies and they lived together and like they were coming up, They became roomies and they lived together. And like they were coming up, they were consultants together and they were kind of struggling in New York in their 20s, not struggling, struggling as much as consultants do. And he tells the story of how they were about to sign a lease on one apartment and he gets a call from John and John's like, don't sign that lease. I just signed a music deal. We're going to get a much better place. And they got a fabulous

apartment in the East Village. That's great. We have to absolutely disclose he is a board member of Vox Media. That's not why we're doing this. I've known him before he was. I was surprised when Jim Bankoff brought him onto the board. Interesting choice. But he is one.

What's your big question for him? I want to talk about Kanye West, where music is going, how you make it in the music business, social justice stuff that he's doing, things like that. I'd also like to know, as a former strategy consultant, how would he fix the music industry? Oh, good question. What's broken and how would he fix it? We should add that question. I'll ask. Yes. All right. Enjoy the interview, Cara.

All right. I do want to talk about a lot of things, your new album, your Audible Words music, and the business of media, but I do need to start with Kanye West. You two go way back. He was the first to W John Legend, or at least to credit you as that. I don't know if that's correct. If you could give me an idea if that's right. I read that, but I don't know if it's true. Well, the first person to call me John Legend was a guy named J.I.V. He was a spoken word artist. He still is. And I met him through Kanye as we were working on Kanye's College Dropout album, which was his debut. So we were working on the album together and J.I.V. started calling me John Legend. And it caught on with our group of friends, which included Kanye. And then Kanye was the first one to put out a record that had my name listed as John Legend.

It was a mixtape that he put out. And that was at a point when I was still deciding whether or not to call myself John Legend as a stage name. And I knew it was a bit presumptuous, but I figured I'm going to go out there and boldly declare that I'm going to do something special in this business and then try to, uh, try to live up to it after that. I'm just curious, you were working on Dropout, which you were doing what on Dropout itself? Oh, I did a lot on there. I sang on there. I played on there. Uh, I wrote, wrote on there. We had a kind of a collective of artists that were collaborating together. And he helped me produce my debut album, Get Lifted, which came out a few months after College Dropout. I signed with Kanye's production company. So my career would be a lot different. And I don't know what it would be without his early

influence and involvement in the beginning of it. Obviously, he's in the news now for the White Lives Matter t-shirt, his anti-Semitism. I really wanted to talk to you about this because I know you had a really significant and important relationship with him and consider him a great artist, and a lot of people do. How do you square the person you knew back when of what's happening now? I do find him different than he was back then. I didn't see hints of this kind of harmful behavior back then. But, you know, I think life happens to people. And I think the

death of his mother probably had something to do with this, I think. And, you know, I don't want to play armchair psychologist, but he's definitely changed. And a lot of us who have known him over the years are really concerned about it. You're referring to mental illness that he's definitely changed. And a lot of us who have known him over the years are really concerned about it. You're referring to mental illness that he's talked about. He's talked about it himself. Absolutely. When you say concerned about him, are you all doing things about it? Are you trying to get help with him or is just a lot of people lost touch? I know people in his life that are, but we have lost touch. We've not been friends for a while now. And so I'm not personally doing anything, but I do know people who are, and a lot of people are concerned about

him. How do you feel about that? Because he was such an important part. I mean, everybody's got someone in their lives that has to change. I'm thinking of someone particularly, but you were quick to call him out indirectly, but not subtly on october 9th you tweeted it's weird how these quote free and independent thinkers always land back in the same old anti-blackness and anti-semitism what compelled you to write that well i think we need to be clear about how insidious and nasty anti-semitism is and has been for centuries, how it's caused millions and millions of deaths. It's cropped up in societies all over the world. And it's made life very difficult for Jews all over the world for a long time. And it's not some new discovery. it's not some innovation in hate. And so when people who claim to be free thinkers

or innovators or creative people just end up landing back at this centuries-old meme of using the same stereotypes and tropes to malign Jews and instigate harm against Jews. This is an old but very dangerous tactic that has resulted in a lot of harm and a lot of death for people. And we don't need to do much digging to understand how evil anti-Blackness has been in this country, particularly the history is robust and has been discussed very often. But for someone who's supposedly free thinking and independently thinking, landing back at these very tried and true forms of hate and bigotry, it's harmful and it doesn't help anyone. You were one of the first celebrities to do so. Why is there so little, I mean, columnists have all written on it. A lot of people have takes on it,

but celebrities find it hard. I was just interviewing John Greenblatt from the Anti-Defamation League, for example, and he said it took a while to get people. It took a couple of weeks for Adidas to do something. Why do you imagine that is? Well, I think everybody's got their own complex reasons for when they'll speak up about something and when they won't. Obviously, Adidas was making a lot of money off of Kanye's designs and his name. And I think they were hesitant to cut that off. And, you know, he said a lot of things that were harmful to black people for a while.

And some people are wondering why it took him saying something about another group for them to do something. But one could argue that it was the accumulation of all those things. But whatever the case, sometimes people get into the kind of oppression Olympics and the outrage Olympics where is it an outrage for him to say this about black people, but not about Jews or vice versa. But I think the bottom line is that driving us apart is not going to solve anything. I think we need to, as a group of people who believe in a multiracial democracy, believe that we're better when we acknowledge each other's humanity and value each other's humanity. We all need to come together and say, we stand against hate, we stand against bigotry, and we want to live in a multiracial democracy where we can all

flourish together. Is there a place for forgiveness for him or those who do this? I think there's always a place for forgiveness. I believe that the forgiver needs to forgive, you know, like it's better for you, the person that feels like they've been harmed to be able to forgive, because if you can't do that, it's a weight on your life. And so I believe in forgiveness in general. That doesn't mean people shouldn't face consequences for what they do wrong, but I also do believe in forgiveness. Okay. Let's move on to your career. You've got a new album out called Legend. You're wrapping up your first Vegas residency, Love in Las Vegas. Congratulations. Thank you. So your creative director for the show said you picked your set list based on streaming data,

but you're not a robot. So talk about the balance between data and artistry. Well, we just based some of it on streaming data. There were some choices we made that were completely artistic. And some of the songs we're playing aren't some of my most popular songs. However, we do look at the streaming data. So we know more than ever, which songs resonate with people that guide some of our marketing decisions, some of our set list decisions. And it's data we didn't have before, because before we chose the singles, people bought an album, they listened to it. We had no idea which songs they were listening to. But streaming gives us the ability to know very clearly what they're listening

to, what they skip, how long they listen to it, all those things. So it can be an interesting data point as you're deciding what songs will resonate. The music business has changed so drastically since you started, but in 2021, you sold your entire catalog to the global investment firm KKR and publisher and label BMG. Talk about this decision to sell at a time where a lot of people are trying to own their own content.

Well, we sold my publishing rights. So we didn't sell my masters. So those are kind of two different revenue streams. But we did sell my publishing rights of my previous work. And to me, it was about diversification because I felt like I could take that cash and invest it in other realms. But I still haven't sold the rights to my masters or the royalties to my masters. And so I've retained enough control where I feel like I still have a lot of say

over how the music is used in the future. And honestly, it was at a time when I felt like there was a bit of a bubble in what these firms were willing to offer. And we felt like it was the time to take advantage of that. Is that bubble over? I don't know. I'm not hearing much about a lot of big deals lately, but I don't know if the bubble's over. So the financials weren't disclosed,

but you're more than welcome to tell me how much you made for that. I will not. Just asking. Just asking questions, John. I know, Kara. I know. It's your job. That's your job. So when you think about this, you've been a coach on The Voice for seven seasons.

Would you suggest young artists try to own their work? Obviously, people didn't have a choice for a long time. Or is the industry such that you need to give it all up and then try to reclaim it, such as, say, Madonna's doing right now? Well, every negotiation is about power. And when you're a brand new artist, you can say you want to own everything and want to do all this and that. But at some point, you're making a decision whether or not what the record label or whatever entity you're negotiating with is offering you something that you think is worth it. And so everybody's going to be making decisions that take their power and balance into account. And if you're early in your career,

a lot of times you need the investment that the label is going to put into it. You need the expertise that the label is going to put into it. And you're willing to give something up for that. And people are still going to be willing to do that. But then there are also cases where artists have built up such a following on TikTok and other platforms that they have more power than other new artists have had. And so they're able to negotiate for more. They're able to retain more ownership. So it's still about what power you bring to the table and what negotiating leverage you have.

And you want as much as possible. You want to retain as much as possible. You want a higher royalty if possible. You want all of that. But some people are not in a position to command that. So when you're looking at the music industry over your long career, you were a management consultant. People probably don't realize that you work for BCG. Is that correct? Yes, for a few years. So that was a long time ago, I know. But so Diagnose, what's broken in the music business?

And what's the big thing that needs to be fixed right now? Well, I think a lot of people are worried about the influence that TikTok has. I think a lot of artists are because it kind of, it doesn't always value the best music and doesn't always value the best art. value the best music and doesn't always value the best art, but it values whoever's able to create a viral moment on this platform that feels very fickle and very foreign to a lot of people. And so I think a lot of people are concerned about that. And I think there's decent reason

to be concerned about that. What you want is ideally you make really good music and you're able to find an audience and you're able to be successful and make a decent amount of money because you've made music that is good, it's impactful and reaches its audience. Artists aren't as able to do that these days. And to the extent that they feel like the current incentive structure and the current way things are succeeding doesn't necessarily always value good music, I think people are concerned. So how do you fix that? Because TikTok is incredibly powerful. It's incredibly successful.

Yeah, I don't know how you fix it. It's eating Meta's lunch right now. Not that that was a particular big music discovery service. But when you think about it, there used to be sort of this curated way of getting music is that the people on high would decide what people would listen to. And now the audience is in charge, really. Yeah. And to an extent, you're like, well, of course, the audience should be in charge. And you can't put the genie back in the bottle with a lot of these things. Like people decide, you know, what social media platforms they go on.

They decide what attracts their attention and makes them keep paying attention. And record labels and other people who are selling music are responding to where the people are going. And so I don't know how you put the genie back in the bottle. Yeah, it's a tough question. Are you on TikTok? Do you do things or just to like... I am on TikTok. Yeah. And my general stance on TikTok is I'm probably too old for this, but I do some things that kind of make fun of the fact that I'm probably too old for this. And then I do things that focus really on the music. But it's interesting because I wasn't

on TikTok for a while. You know, during the pandemic, it kind of blew up. But eventually I was like, you know, if the audience is there, let's go there and do it my way. These young kids today. Okay, let's take a quick break and we'll be back in a minute. it. Your business is ready for launch, but what's the most important thing to do before those doors open? Is it getting more social media followers or is it actually legitimizing and protecting the business you've been busy building? Make it official with LegalZoom. LegalZoom has everything you need to launch, run, and protect your business all in one place. Setting up your business properly and remaining compliant are the things you want to get right from the get-go. And LegalZoom saves you from wasting hours making

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LegalZoom provides access to independent attorneys and self-service tools. LegalZoom is not a law firm and does not provide legal advice, except we're authorized through its subsidiary law firm, LZ Legal Services, LLC. Thumbtack presents the ins and outs of caring for your home. Out. Indecision, overthinking, second-guessing every choice you make. In. Plans and guides that make it easy to get home projects done. Out. Beige on beige on beige. In. Knowing what to do, when to do it, and who to hire. Start caring for your home with confidence. Download Thumbtack today. You recently published an episode of Words in Music for Audible, where you essentially your life story and pair it with songs from your catalog. You

focus a lot on duality. You were a black kid in a mostly white town, then a working class kid in Ivy League school at Penn, and then a strategy consultant by day playing gigs at night. Can you talk about duality and how you ground yourself? Yeah. And you know what I kind of resolve at the end was that I think me becoming like a full adult, fully embracing who I am and kind of minimizing that duality was as part of my journey because I was always trying to hedge my bets. I was a nerdy kid in the music business, and I was a music guy trying to be a management consultant. So there was always kind of me putting my foot in two different camps. And I think part of me kind of fully realizing

myself is kind of minimizing that duality and just being my full self all the time. But yeah, it was quite an interesting journey and probably pretty atypical for the music business, probably in the consulting business, having that dual life. But it's what I needed at that time. I graduated from high school in Ohio, went to Penn as a 16-year-old. So I was really young. I was really shy. I was really kind of a fish out of water there. You had been homeschooled initially, correct? Yeah, I was homeschooled for most of my elementary school years. I didn't start going to public school until eighth grade. And I was the age of a sixth grader when I got to eighth grade because I'd been tested out of some of the earlier grades. And so I get to high school at age 12 and I get to college at age 16.

And so that was quite a thing. I wouldn't necessarily advise it. Actually, you know what? Homeschool kids are often smarter, I have to say, the ones I've met. It's kind of interesting. But your story starts up growing up, as I said, you were homeschooled in a conservative black family. A lot of liberals don't know much or understand much about black conservatives. So talk about the church you grew up in and what kind of values and norms you grew up with. Well, it's interesting because I think when you think about conservative, sometimes people

think of it as, were they Republican or Democrat? And I think most of the black people I grew up around were Democrats, but they were also very conservative when it came to sex, when it came to abortion, when it came to certain things like that, when it came to women's rights, gay rights, et cetera. They were pretty conservative, but they would still usually, you know, when I was a kid growing up, they would usually vote for the Democrat that was running for office, whether it was Dukakis or Bill Clinton or whatever. And I think that's because the Democrats had earned a lot of credit with Black folks for being more supportive of the civil rights movement. The work of Lyndon B. Johnson and even FDR got a lot of credit in the black community and made it so that a lot

of black folks voted for Democrats, even though there are plenty of religious black folks who are pretty conservative about certain things. In the recent election, Democrats have been freaking out about Trump getting a larger share of black male vote in 2020. Why do you think that's happening, doing better than usual with Black men? It's not the case with Black women. And I'm not asking you to speak for all Black men, but I do want to get this idea of the kind of conservative values in this. Is this a surprise to you or not? I am a little surprised. But I think there was something about Trump's swagger that may have been attracted to black men.

I think misogyny can play well with men of all races. And there are certain people who are attracted to a message that's kind of a fuck your feelings kind of message with all races. And clearly black men voted for the conservative choice way less than any other race of men. But the fact that support for progressive causes eroded even a little bit, you know, has Democrats concerned. So how does abortion factor into this?

Democrats obviously want it to be a key issue in upcoming terms. I know you've talked about it. I know your wife recently said that she thought what she thought was a miscarriage was actually an abortion to save her from an unviable pregnancy that could have killed her. from the miscarriage. And so what ends up happening is a lot of what folks are calling late-term abortions are actually people trying to resolve a miscarriage in a way that doesn't kill the mother. And if the Republicans have their way, then the law gets involved in every conversation regarding those very, very fraught moments in a woman's life. Just imagine like we're grieving the fact that we're losing this pregnancy that we wanted. She's in, you know, intense pain. She's going through all this physical turmoil. And imagine on top of that, having to wait for the law to authorize

the procedure that needed to happen to save her life. And that's literally what's happening. This is not hyperbole. This is not exaggeration. This is exactly what's happening all around the country in any state where the law gets involved in these intimate conversations. And what people need to realize is that the politicians, the police, the local district attorney, none of them have a place in these conversations. Not the local sheriff, like Dr. Oz says. Not the local. Not the local public officials. Not their local state legislator. No. Get them out of it. Get them, not the local. Not the local public officials, not their local state legislator.

No, get them out of it. Get them out of the conversation. Get them out of the decision. And having gone through what we went through is one particular type of abortion. But some people just are having abortions because they can't have a kid right now. They don't want to have a kid right now. And we should honor that choice as well. And the government should stay out of that as well.

And I think even with Republicans, they said they were pro-life for so long. They said they wanted to overturn Roe versus Wade. But even they know that this is nasty, the idea of the law getting involved in all these intimate conversations. having lawyers and law enforcement enter this conversation that's so intimate and private, it's just crazy. And even they know that once they got what they wanted, that it's actually quite fraught trying to implement what they say they believe in. Absolutely. So in the good news, you are about to have another kid, correct? Is that correct? Yes, we are.

And we're very excited. Yes, congratulations. And we're well past the point where we were when we lost our child last time. So we feel like, you know, things are looking good. And I think she's caring more healthily than she ever has. And so we're really excited. So one of the things is you did take the time to talk about it on social media, what happened to you and thinking about this, because you two were pretty open on social media. I thought the stuff

around your miscarriage was very important for people to talk about, although it also faced criticism. I couldn't even believe it faced the criticism it did, but there it was. Someone always has an opinion about something. How did you think about that? Well, it really was Chrissy's idea to share the miscarriage. And I was reluctant because I tend to only want to share positivity and I don't like to share a lot of pain and grief. And this was like the most pain and the most grief that we felt together. And she decided she wanted to share it. I think partly because she shared the fact that we were pregnant. She shared the fact that we were on this journey together and then for it to end and just go silent, didn't make sense to her. But also what we found out was it was so helpful for

her to share because so many families go through this in silence. So they go through this feeling a sense of shame, feeling like they're alone. And when she posted those pictures, she made a lot of people feel less alone and opened this conversation up about a subject that people often just want to kind of move on from and bury without really talking about it. And it was such a wise thing for her to do it. And I didn't see the wisdom of it immediately, but I saw it very soon after that because I saw how meaningful and impactful and helpful it was for so many other people who had gone through what we'd gone through. Do you worry about exposing yourself in that way?

My wife won't let me put the faces of our children online, for example. We have to turn them around or the back of their head. So everybody knows what the back of their heads looks like. But when your wife, she was a fantastic tweeter, and has gone in and out. She took a rest from it and stuff. How do you both think about that? How do you think about that? Given the partisanship that's going on, given the attacks your wife

underwent, for example? Yeah, I just try to be as honest as I can be. I certainly hold back certain things because I don't think everything needs to be shared. We do post pictures of our children's faces, which I know some of my friends don't want to do and don't do. And I think every family has to make their own choice about that. But I think generally speaking, we find it easier to be honest about our lives to, you know, to a reasonable extent and share with our audience what's going on in our lives. And I think partly because so much of what we create, she as a food entrepreneur and a cookbook author, and me as a musician, so much of it is inspired by our family lives and who we are and our story, that it feels odd to not let people in a little

bit on the inspiration for what we create. Right, right, right. And then when it comes to politics, though, that's a different choice. And there are plenty of artists that don't weigh in on any political issues. They feel like they'll alienate too many people by doing that. And I've just decided that I believe strongly enough in these things that I'm speaking about, and I care enough about it, that I am not going to worry about losing some fans because I speak out about it, because I think it's worth it to try to make the world better. You recently tweeted a long thread about voting, making many, many specific and local choices, including district attorneys. It was quite something. You had very specific kind of things.

So you obviously think those are important, which they are. They are important and they have a lot of influence on how much we incarcerate in this country, how justice is, you know, adjudicated in this country. And we do a lot of research. We speak with a lot of activists and people who are working in these various communities. We talk to them about what their priorities are and who they're supporting. And then we weigh in when we think we have a strong opinion one way or another on who we think should be in office. And obviously, some people are going to say, John Legend is supporting this person. I'm going to do the exact opposite. But there will be plenty of people who will take my input into consideration

and then make their own choices about who they think are important. But what I also want to make sure we do, even beyond endorsing particular candidates, is get people to pay attention to these particular races, because oftentimes they see the governor, they see the senator, they may see maybe the mayor, but they don't pay attention to the district attorney, their school board, their county sheriff. And when they don't pay attention, a lot of times these races go uncontested and the incumbent just gets reelected no matter what.

And that actually affects the daily lives of so many people. And I want them to know that and pay attention to those races. So you've been playing a starring role in democratic politics ever since your performance at the Democratic National Convention in 2008. Did you ever think about running for office? Have you ever thought about it? I get asked a lot. I mean, you're an EGOT, right? You're an EGOT, which is Emmy, Grammy, Oscar, and Tony, right? One of the few egos there are.

Yes. And I'm not going to run for office. I know you get the question a lot. Not going to run for office. Never consider. No, I fully enjoy my career as it is. I love making music. I love being creative. And I also love being involved in politics in the way that I am.

I feel like I can make a difference doing what I do. And I feel like this is the kind of difference I want to make. So last question. Politics is pretty awful these days. Partisanship, pretty awful. I know you were an African American literary studies major. Is that correct? In college.

And so I was thinking of Toni Morrison's quote from Song of Solomon, you want to fly, you've got to give up the shit that weighs you down. My son was just reading it. So I was lucky to reread it again just recently. I'm curious, what weighs you down right now? And what lifts you up?

Wow, that's a good question. You know, I think all the hate and the vitriol and the anti-democratic tendencies and this kind of flirtation with fascism that we're seeing in the country is really worrying. And it truly is concerning because you look at the polls, you look at just the kind of the pendulum swings that we see in electoral politics. The expectation is, you know, that when you are in your first term and it's the first midterm, you're going to lose some seats. And if that was just the normal politics, that'd be one thing. But when you're losing your seats to people who literally aren't sure if they believe in elections or not, aren't sure if they even support the idea of a multiracial democracy,

multicultural democracy, a multireligigious democracy, it's extremely concerning because I think a lot of Americans think that our way of life is just kind of going to exist and democracy is just going to carry on as it has in this country. But even that history is fraught. We weren't even allowing women to vote until, you know, the early 20th century. And black folks weren't able to vote fully and freely around the country until the 60s. So we've barely even been a democracy for long. And I think I'm realizing a lot more people are realizing how fragile it is even now. realizing a lot more people realizing how fragile it is even now. And I'm really worried that we're going down a path that we're really going to erode and end democracy as we truly know it right now.

And I'm very worried about that. What lifts you up then? What lifts me up? I absolutely still love making music so much. I was just on stage last night in Las Vegas, and I truly am buoyed every time I'm on stage. I feel this rush of energy and love and connection. And then I feel that with my kids and my family too. So I think I feel very lucky because I get to make music for a living and I have a wonderful family and they lift me up. All right, John, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. Thank you, Kara. It's great talking to you and congratulations on the new show. So he's already an EGOT. Do you think he should be a PGOT, a president, a CGOT, a senator?

No, he's not running for president. No, no. Although I would really enjoy Chrissy Teigen as first lady, but no, no. His take on Kanye, what did you think of it? I thought it was great. I thought he was very kind. And someone who I have no kind thoughts towards right now, I thought he was very kind. Obviously, he owes him a lot, and he does probably respect, know him better than we do. He's now become such a like a an evil cartoon

figure essentially for people and deserve of all the uh scrutiny he's getting um but i think he had probably has a better vision of this guy and probably feels bad that's really obviously he decries he was very public about uh saying something publicly him, which is not easy. At the same time, he was kind. He's a kind man. John Legend's a kind man. So there you have it. He's a kind man. And I thought your point was good too. Everybody has someone in their life who you feel like, oh, that person has really gotten away from who they were and from who I knew. Yes. I think we all have that person. Who's yours? I'm not telling you. No? No, thank you. Okay.

Just like to move on. Move on, move on. Yes, last thing. His point on TikTok was interesting, by the way. This idea that the audience decides might... I guess he was basically saying you might not know what you're missing because what's viral might not be the best. Right.

I think that's sort of, you know, that's a big complaint of a lot of artists is they don't, first of all, they don't get it. They don't get what's happening and they don't like the quality. It's just a different form of art and it is more reductive. It's more quick. It's more fast.

I do think TikTok is an incredibly creative place no matter what you look at. Yeah, it totally is. But if you're an artist who makes beautiful, it's sort of like the filmmakers who don't like streaming, right? But most people don't artist who makes beautiful, it's sort of like the filmmakers who don't like streaming, right? But most people don't care. Most people just want to be entertained. And I think that's the one thing artists don't realize is most people just want a nice song and a dance.

That's what they want. Speaking of song and dance, Cara, I think you have a few choice words for us today, don't you? Yes, I do. And you've prepared it. It's like a column. I did. I'm going to start doing this because I realized I put it all on Twitter. And why shouldn't I not put it on the place where I get paid? Here. I get paid very well for this. I'm not going to give it to Elon Musk for free. Let me read it to you because this would have been a series of tweets and it may be after this appears.

Okay. You know, some are calling me a cheap bastard for not wanting to pay Twitter's apparent new gating fee for identifying myself that says, I am Kara Swisher. Since I was one of the service's early users, I got it. I have no idea why or how I got it. Whatever. It doesn't matter. I've had it forever. I haven't paid much attention to it. I could care less. And the dumb idea that it makes me a lord seems like the fever dreams of the truly insecure. For those who think I don't want to pay $8 a month for a blue check because Elon is an asshole these days, let me be clear that while his homophobic tweet about Paul Pelosi's attack tweaked me good, especially as a parent of four kids operating in an increasingly hostile environment for LGBTQ families. As a parent of a trans woman,

he should know better, or at least I hope so. I have actually defended Elon a lot more than most over the years, and we do not always agree, see COVID, so that is not why. Let me point you to another much more dastardly media mogul named Rupert Murdoch, who I almost definitely left his employ because I took to publicly calling him Uncle Satan, and that became awkward. I also still pay over $100 a year for the Wall Street Journal. Why?

Because Matt Murray, whom I worked with there, is a great editor, and he leads a superb news organization. For example, I would marry John Carreyrou if I was not married and gay for his amazing investigative reporting over the years, and there are dozens like him at the Wall Street Journal. It's a great news product. Even if I ignore most of the editorials, although you'd be surprised that I agree with some of them, it's an outstanding contributor to journalism and well worth the money. Let me underscore that I abhor Murdoch and think he has presided over the worst propaganda in history and has toxified American society where he came like Elon as an immigrant. That's kind of ironic. And I still want to reward what is good in Uncle Satan's empire of pain.

It's obviously hypocritical, but there it is. So since I find it utterly worthless to pay to say who I am on Twitter, and it's not my job to help the world's richest man clean up the bots of a service he overpaid for, maybe he shouldn't have offered so much so he'd have the money to do so. I will not pay the price. If the achingly non-diverse boy minions of Elon, and they are all boys, can come up with something to offer me that is worth what the Wall Street Journal is to me, then I'll consider it. Endless breadsticks, no more stupid penis jokes and casual homophobia from the CEO. I don't know. Impress me.

I heard you're all geniuses. At least that's what you tell everybody. That's your final word, Cara. Final word. If you end up paying $8 or someone ends up paying $8 for you. I might be there if they're good breadsticks. I'm telling you, I think that there's going to be a revenue share and your $8 will be a drop in the hat relative to the revenue.

I don't care. I'm still not paying. It'll be a deduction. No. I think you take it. I think you take the deal. No, I won't. They can pay me.

That's fine. You love Twitter. I do, but I don't. I love a lot of things I've left behind, Naima. Oh, ouch. Sounds like a veiled threat to me, Cara. I have no intention of that right now. Right now. Okay, let's get to the credits. Today's show was produced by Naima Raza, Blake Nischik, Christian Castro-Rossell, and Rafaela Seward. Special thanks to Hayley Millican. This episode was engineered by Rick Kwan, and our theme music is by Trackademics.

If you're already following the show, you get a blue check. If not, send me $8, because I deserve it more than those guys. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On with Kara Swisher, and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher

from New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Monday with more. And we don't want your $8 by the way. Unless you're a lord, then we want it. Yes, we want all the $8. Not everybody. All.

All the $8 are belong to us. Greedy Kara Swisher. That's right.