On with Kara Swisher - Keri Russell on ‘The Diplomat,’ Powerful Women, and Loving the Mess

Episode Date: October 15, 2026

Keri Russell never dreamed of becoming an actor. But she’s built an impressive career playing nuanced and complex women in critically acclaimed series like “Felicity,” “The Americans” and most recently “The Diplomat,” which has earned her three Emmy nominations in as many years. Kara sits down with Keri to discuss the new season of the hit Netflix series, created by “The West Wing” and “Homeland” veteran Debora Cahn. They talk about bringing Ambassador Kate Wyler to life, working alongside greats like Allison Janney and Rufus Sewell, and what it means to play a skilled, serious, yet imperfect woman in Hollywood. They also dig into some real-life diplomatic drama, and Keri fields an expert question from former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton. Season 4 of “The Diplomat” premieres October 15th on Netflix.  Questions? Comments? Email us at [e-mail] or find us on YouTube, Instagram, TikTok, Threads, and Bluesky @onwithkaraswisher. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I wanted to be a spy, actually. Who doesn't? I really did. I could still be one, and you don't know it. You could still be one. You have a great cover now. You would have been so good, actually. Maybe.

Maybe. It would have been at war with, like... Everyone. Like Luxembourg. It's on. Hi, everyone, from New York Magazine in the Box Media Podcast Network. This is on with Kara Swisher, and I'm Kara Swisher.

Today, I'm talking to Carrie Russell. She's the star and executive producer of the critically acclaimed NetFosser. series, The Diplomat, created by West Wing and Homeland veteran Deborah Khan. Season 4 premieres today. And spoiler, if you haven't seen the series yet, we'll be talking about seasons one through three. Carrie plays ambassador Kate Weiler, a career foreign service officer who's plucked from the background and appointed ambassador to the UK, a high-profile role that initially seemed softer and more ceremonial than she'd prefer. But Kate's experience and

diplomacy skills are quickly tested as she faces one geopolitical crisis after another. At the same time, she's navigating a complex marriage to her husband, former ambassador Hal Weiler, played by Rufus Sewell, who is a charming and ambitious political strategist. Carrie has received three Emmy nominations for her role in the diplomat. Prior to this, she had an acclaimed sixth season run as the star of the Americans, where she played a 1980s Cold War KGB spy living undercover in the U.S. with her husband, played by her real-life partner, Matthew Reese. Carrie's big breakout, of course, was Felicity, a network drama about an earnest and bright college student

coming of age in New York City. I really want to talk to Carrie Russell because I think she's one of these enduring actors who has really enveloped roles that she's been in. She's very poignant in many ways, and at the same time portrays really complex women, which I think is really important today. Our expert question today comes from none other

than former U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, so stick around. What does a sunny getaway with Air Canada sound like? Sunny Jamaica moves to its own rhythm. Rio comes alive long after the sun goes down. Philippines slows everything down. And just when you think you've heard it all, there's Sunny Lima.

However you imagine your sunny escape, Air Canada can take you there. Book hot fares and vacation packages today. Nice travels. How much have you spent on your pet's medical care this year? Maybe more than your own? 25 years ago, it was very rare to hear of a pet having an MRI. Now it's kind of standard if a pet presents with an issue.

Big corporations and private equity have seen all of this and have rushed into the sector. Why your vet bill is so high. That's this week on Explain It to Me. Listen to new episodes, Sundays, wherever you get your podcasts. Carrie, thanks for coming on on. Thanks for having me. So explain how we met. I wrote you a fan letter. You wrote me a fan letter. You did, but it was on AOL.com. And I thought it was fake. That's right. I thought it was fake. And I didn't respond. And one of your showrunners for the diplomats said, Carrie wrote, you a note and you didn't respond. And I said, that's not a real Carrie Russell. Yeah, I wrote, I think I wrote you and Scott. I wrote Pivot, the fan. I just said, you guys are great. It was a couple of years ago or last year or something. Yeah, yeah, a couple years ago. Yeah, and

from my AOL account. I know. Is that, you still have your AOL? I still do. Me and the grandmothers. Oh, wow. Wow. Amazingly, Matthew, my guy, also has AGO. I've heard he's your guy. He also has an AOL. And you use them. And you proudly use them. We're trying to make it cool again. Yeah. We know nothing about tech. Like zero.

And the AOL fits right in. Yeah, it's perfect. I love it. I do still have my AO accounts, but I don't use them. You still keep them? Yeah, I have a better one at Gmail because my ex-wife was one of the creators of Gmail. Yes. So you got one right away.

Yeah. Anyway, I appreciate it. It's nice to meet you in person. So I'm thrilled you're here, and I was just telling you, I watched the whole season four. And we can't talk too much. We don't want to, it's a lot of plot spoilers. It is a lot of plots. But let me tell you, it's a lot.

But let's start earlier. You played complicated women. They're all complicated women, essentially, Felicity, who was complicated in our own sort of nerdy, sweet way. Elizabeth Jennings and undercover Soviet spy and the Americans who was complicated in kind of a mean way. And murderous, of course. And Ambassador Kate Weiler and the diplomat, Vulture described Kate as a hyper-competent hot mess. I accept. Is there a through line that you've drawn or ultimately focus in on?

I think my only through line is the writing. I think that's what interests me most. In all three of those shows, I think that's the real star of the show is the writing. It was J.J. Abrams. It was Joe and Joel for the Americans. And then Deborah Khan, who is just exceptional. But in your characters, are you trying for anything or just did it? different every time. I think I'm just looking for something relatable or some world that I want to

explore. It usually is some combination of funny and serious and I want to recognize the people. Well, they're nuanced, actually. And that's unusual. One of the reasons I like them is because they're complex people who are not any one thing. No, which most people are. Yes, they are, but often females are not portrayed that way. You know, either they're harpies or stupid or, you know, and so. Or like embarrassingly perfect at everything, right? That's just not the way life is. Yeah.

What attracted to each of the roles? I mean, the first one was the big opportunity, right? Yeah, I was a kid. I was like 21, I think. Yeah. And that was just, yeah, I had read that script. I thought it was really funny. And it was so sweet.

It's such a sweet little poem. of a story of this sweet time in college. And it's still sweet now. And now Netflix is like re-airing them all, which is hilarious and great. But JJ and Matt Reeves, who directed that, they've gone on, obviously, to do incredible things. So they were really, like, talented artists, too. And then the Americans was just such a, I mean, that character was awesome, so completely different than me. so much cooler and sexier and dark. And that was just such a departure and so fun to do that.

And this is probably the closest to me, the diplomat. But again, it's just a world that I'm interested in. It's fictional, but it's just adjacent enough to things that I am interested in in the world. And just she reminds me, the character reminds me of my friends that I see. They're a mess. They're smart. They're funny. They're all the things. Right. You remind me of a couple people I know in the diplomatic corps. Absolutely. So we're going to talk about the diplomat, but let's talk about the beginning. I'm not sure people know this. Well, you were cast in the all-new Mickey Mouse Club in high school alongside co-stars Justin Timberlake, Ryan Gosling and Britney Spears. But you said you didn't grow up desperate to be an actress and you're pretty introverted.

So why did you audition then and why did you stick with it? What did you take away from being a Disney kid? I mean, I was a dancer. That's the only thing I'm really trained in. I just went with a bunch of my dance friends to, like a big, you know, one of those casting calls you hear about where there's like 300 kids waiting outside. I just went with my friends and happened to get it. My parents knew nothing about this world. And I just did it. So we did it in the summers and we filmed it at Disney World. In Florida.

In Florida. It was just, it was amazing. It was like what a wild, weird. little teenage thing. And luckily, I would do it for the most part in the summer and then I'd go back to school. So it was just like a little dipping your toe in it kind of thing. When you think back on it, I mean, the group you were with, too. They were, when I was 17, they were 12. So the really famous kids were a step younger. You know, when you're 17 and 12, there's a big difference. They were wildly talented. Like, honestly, I can't sing. I can sort of. of dance, but those kids were like, it was very clear. And I guess, I don't know, it was so long ago. And when you're a kid, you're just sort of, you remember things differently too. I don't

know. I was still thinking about, like, who I had a crush on. You know, I wasn't thinking like, oh, I hope I'm going to be a great actress or something. I was like, oh, I want to make out with that guy or, you know, whatever. It wasn't, I wasn't serious about that stuff. But it was a good entree into this crazy adventure of my life. So you were in your early 20s when you got Felicity. You won a Golden Globe for your performance the first season. The show has now found New Life in the streaming era. Why do you think the show resonates?

I mean, it was an important part of my younger period. It was? Yeah, sure. Oh, my gosh. I don't know. There wasn't much on that was good. Right. It was sort of whimsical.

And I, no, you know what? I think. Facing Geeks was the other one. That was, yeah. I think it was just about a time when things aren't decided yet, and that's such a sweet time. I have teenagers now, and we were talking about one of the friends, one of the boys who was like falling in love with somebody, and we were like, oh, my God, like even getting your heart broken, it's just such a, and everything feels so big and beautiful. And I think that's why the show, it's about that time when things are so enormous. and not destroyed or cynical yet.

Right. Although it's harder for college students now. Well, of course. It's a very different world. It's a whole other thing. Because they've grown up under Trump for that long. Their whole life. I know.

Can you know? I'm trying to think what defined our lives, 9-11. I know. Before that. Before that. So maybe it's like this little stuck-in-time little show. We didn't have phones. We didn't have any.

that. No, not at all. Thank God. Yeah, I know, exactly. Do you watch it again? I know you did a little cute social media thing on it. I haven't seen it in a long time. No, I don't watch it. But I mean, my kids have never seen it. I tried to get my, I have three kids in my middle as a girl. And over COVID, I said, you know, you might like this show. And she was like, oh, no, mom, no. My kids do too. They're like, no. Yeah, I do that. I'm like, I interviewed someone and they're, so I finally am like interviewing people they like. Of course.

Yeah. Yeah. Right. But no, they don't listen to me at all. No. But are you going to watch it? I'd watch it. I'd watch it if Willow wants to watch it.

But, yeah, because it's so long ago that I have some distance. Yeah. So then your next big series was into the Americans, which was created by a former CIA agent, Joe Weisberg and Joel Fields, as you said, set in the cold era of the 1980s. and this character was Elizabeth Jennings, and a very deeply devoted KGB spy spy, who's adept at Spycraft, very adept, and cold. And cold, yeah. That last scene, I have to say, in Moscow, just killed me.

That, the end. The train station was, but then the last scene. Where you're like, oh, this is it. Yeah, this is it. Yeah. You've joked that you're not sure why they cast you as the lead in that show. And do you understand why you were cast? Do you have a better...

Yeah. Landgraf, who runs FX, who's so interesting as a head of a studio network, he said, well, I think it was his idea, actually, because he wanted it to be someone who looked like the person next door, the girl next door, but then had all this training. And I think I was a good fit for that because you think I'm going to be Felicity or something like that, and then you end up being not. Very not. Murderous.

Yeah. Murderous. A lot of hair and like high-hield shoes and cat eyeliner. Yeah. Yeah, it was amazing. When you think about how that arc went, what do you remember? Obviously, you met your husband there. Yeah.

And, wait, I don't know. You're married. We're not married. That's right. Living in sin. That's okay. Yeah. Yeah, no, I like it like that.

Yeah. You don't need paper. I don't need paper. I don't need it. Stink. Only gay people want to get married and go in the military. What was everyone doing? I know.

I know. Well, you got remarried. I'm a married. I'm a married. You're married lady. Yeah, I am. Yeah. Yeah, I don't care about it.

I wanted to go in the military, too. I'm just telling gay people are the only people that want those two things. It's so true. It's so true. But when you think about that experience, how do you remember it? Why do you think it hit? Because six seasons is a lot. It is a lot.

And, you know, it's not, it was sort of a slow. moving show. It was really kind of cerebral and slow and sexy. And I don't know. It was just unlike anything else. And I'm surprised in a way that it hit. I think the smart critics really liked it, and that helped us. Like, I don't think we ever had in the beginning good ratings, and then the right people were writing about us, and I think that helped. Right. So we had like this slow burn of Right, right. Of a following. But it's also, anytime you have the luxury of looking back on a period, it's just, it's so interesting because you can go, oh, yeah, that's what was really going on and, you know, make it bigger or smaller or fictionalize a few things.

So you're getting to relive certain things, and I think that was an appeal to. You also allowed her to be very cold and calculating. I mean, I think I started to really hit you when you killed that lady in the office. that scene. I don't remember her name. I was so upset at you. I mean, it was, but it was so fun. It was so fun to get to do that. Yeah. And Joe and Joel always said they wanted her to really follow this, but there was some like feminist rule book. I'm trying to think what it was based off of, where every single character choice for Elizabeth, they followed it. Like she didn't make a decision for anyone other than herself, not for her family, not for, it was always, you know,

what she wanted to do. And they also based a lot of her earlier things on Gloria Steinem. Like, that's the reason they had her dating this, like, kind of that Black Panther character. I think that was the first season. Yeah, it was an amazing job. Complex lady. Oh, my God. So after sixies and the Americans, you took some really distinct roles. You had a stint on Broadway with Adam Driver and burn this. You later joined him in the Star Wars film playing Spice Runner named Zori Bliss in the rise of Skywalker. A little small part, but it was how fun. Zori Plus.

Oh, my complete hotel name. Yeah. Porn name. That's like a porn name. Yeah. Poor name is your dog. And the street grew up. Right.

What would your porn name? Mine was a cat, so it was Felina Grandview. Oh, nice. What's yours? Prudence. Prudence Glenwood It's so good It's so long island

But you also started a raucous horror comedy Cocaine Bear directed by Elizabeth Banks Which was a wild ride What were you looking for anything new When the script for the diplomat came along Or what drew you to that role? It was just Deborah's writing Because these are all different

Yeah It was Deborah's writing And I loved the banter Between the husband and the wife I loved their like No Holds Barre like crazy, acerbic fighting relationship. And that world interests me.

I didn't know that much about the Foreign Service. I didn't know that much about diplomats. They're so fascinating. They're the smartest, curious. And they also have this great need for travel, like an adventure. It just satisfies a lot of things that I'm interested in. Yeah, I tried to be in the diplomatic corps, but I was gay at the time, and I couldn't get in.

You could still do it. I'm not going to do it. You don't need to do anything. I wanted to be a spy, actually. Who doesn't? I really did. I could still be one, and you don't know it. You could still be one.

You have a great cover now. But I went to the Foreign Service School at Georgetown. Did you really? So I think a lot about a different life, you know, sort of like sliding doors kind of thing, which would have been interesting. You would have been so good, actually. Maybe. Maybe. Maybe it would have been at war with.

like, like Luxembourg. Why Luxembourg? Why? Because I wanted to say something rude to you. So I'm going to play a clip from The Diplomat. This is from the first episode of Season 3, Vice President Grace Penn, played by Alison Janney, who is the best. Is about to become commander-in-chief following a sudden death of the president.

Kate is trying to persuade Grace to do a swearing-in at the American Embassy in London, not Winfield House, the Ambassador's Plush Residents in Regents Park. Let's listen. It's formal. It's a ceremonial space. Podium, couple of flags, we're good to go. Or the embassy. The move is a risk.

The embassy is a fortress with Marines and a moat. Based on her analysis of my safety, she would strongly prefer no move. The embassy is granite slabs and soaring ceilings and a 12-foot eagle on the wall. It is a not-at-all subtle monument to American power. Ma'am, we're not swearing you in

in front of 18th century hand-painted wallpaper. It makes you look like someone's granny. We're going to do it at the embassy. Before becoming a back, becoming ambassador, your character Kate was used to being behind the scenes. By season three, she's definitely more comfortable in her role. So what is so quintessentially Kate in the scene? How did you add to it as an actor? So much is on the page. Deborah is such a specific writer. She's so detail-oriented. Yes, she is. And I love that. I love the messiness.

It's very detailed specific. I mean, as I said, she was a writer on West Wing and Homeland. And so is it challenged you as an actor when doing this kind of detailed specific dialogue, or do you love that? It's muscular dialogue, for sure. I wish I had 30 years of diplomatic experience, so it would certainly make this a lot easier. But for me, I love how she's taking this really important world, but then making it about the minutia of every day. you know, you're mad at your husband or wife or you didn't eat or you spilled something on your thing and now you're embarrassed or, you know, you're sweating and you're embarrassed about that. I love the physicality of Kate. I really love that part of her. And I love that she's always kind of getting in over her head, kind of in that Holly Hunter broadcast news way. That's what I really love about it. But totally competence and not really getting in over her head. Right.

Well. Smarter than everyone else in the room. She thinks so. Yeah. That line from broadcast news is exactly, how does it feel to be? It's so hard. It's so hard. It's so hard, right.

It's awful, actually. Yeah. Something like that, yeah. When you're doing all that very specific dialogue, I mean, of course, you have the West Wing where Debra worked. And you have a, that was famous for that. There's a couple of shows like that where there's very complex language that is highly specific. It takes practice. We watch everyone come on the show and there's a learning curve, you know, and people stumble.

And I just go, stay in it. Don't give up. Like, I'm here with you. Let's just keep going. Because people don't talk like that all the time. You know, it's a skill. It's this trained thing that your mind and your whole thing has to kind of get used to. And everyone sort of is wobbly at first, and it takes practice.

How did you get more? I struggle all the time, especially, you know, the older I get, like, it's harder to remember things. But just practice. Just practice. I write it down sometimes. I firmly at least the audience is like smarter dialogue than we think. I agree. You know, that's how I do my podcast, everything else.

It's much more prepared, substantive. When you have something this complex, were you worried at all? That it would be too dense? Yeah. It's not like lioness. No. No. No, I mean, I think it's a good combination of snackable substance.

You know, it has a little fluff. It has like fights in bushes and things. Right. But it is full of substance. Deborah broke down a scene one time for something and she says there's a system. You introduce the difficult idea. Then a little bit further on, you introduce it again. So the first time audiences are sort of like, oh, what was that? I don't quite grasp everything. But then the second time it's introduced again. Oh, I caught a little bit more of it. And then you introduce it the third time. And then everyone's caught up. Oh, interesting. Yeah. Huh. Yeah. So there's an actual like system to it. You're not supposed to grasp everything right at the beginning. Right, right. And you're trying, it's sort of very chess-like the discussions, even the personal relationship ones. Definitely. And I'll tell you, this season is all straight people processing.

Like, I've never, they never process like, I'm sorry. No straight people I know process like this. I know, it's not great. I felt like it was a lesbian collector. I love it. I was like, you're all lesbians, each of you. And I don't like to process like that. Oh my God.

No. It's funny. But it was, especially you and your husband. It's a lot of processing. Rufus. A lot. A lot. A lot.

I'm like, stop talking about a relationship. Just have it. I know. Just do it. Yes. Yeah, I know. There's like 16 page scenes about it. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah. We'll be back in a minute. support for the show comes from Rippling. You just found out your sales team is at risk of missing quoted. Don't panic just to ask Rippling AI. Since it's built on your real-time people and business data, Rippling AI can pull metrics from Rippling and Salesforce into a meeting-ready dashboard, which shows quota attainment, headcount, plan, and monthly revenue to quota by region.

In seconds, you'll see exactly what's behind your quota risk and fix it before it's missed. Question answered, action taken, crisis averted. When you have a critical business question, that need answers, don't just file a ticket and wait weeks for an outdated report. Describe what you need and have Rippling AI built it instantly from your live people and business data, whether it's a dashboard with detailed charts or automated workflows with the right triggers, conditions, and approvals. Ready to rule your business, head to rippling.aI-S-Cara.

Get the only AI built to give you full visibility and take complex actions across your entire organization. That's R-I-P-P-L-N-G-A-I-S-Cara. sign up for exclusive access today. Support for this show comes from Framer. The future of website building is one that seamlessly blends all the tools we have available, and you should use a platform that has it all and stays useful even after you launch. That's what Framer is. Framer is the AI website builder that helps creators, teams, and businesses ship production-ready sites

faster than ever, while getting every detail right. You're able to prompt, inspect, edit, and publish in one place at a whole new pace. on Framer agents and humans work in tandem. Agents bring speed and scale while people bring taste, judgment, and control. And that all takes place in the same workspace where the real site is designed, managed, reviewed, and published. Everyone's ideas land on the canvas, stay editable and can be published when the team is ready. Framer is an enterprise-level solution. Thousands of businesses from early-stage startups of Fortune 500 are choosing to build their websites in Framer

where changes take place in minutes instead of days. Learn how you can get more out of your site from a Framer specialist or get started building for free today at Framer.com.com slash Karaara for 30% off a Framer pro annual plan. That's Framer.com slash Kara. Rules and Restrictions apply. I'm Kara Swisher and I like people who say the quiet part out loud. In fact, I love it. That's Tiger Sisters, a new podcast that recently joined the Box Media Podcast Network. Sheree Brooke Lou and Jean Lou are real sisters who built their careers. at LinkedIn and Goldman Sachs. On their weekly podcast, they're giving the next generation practical tips on how to get ahead. How to write emails people actually answer, how to make your LinkedIn profile stand out, and how to keep learning as an adult.

It's straight talk about money, career, and relationships every Monday. Follow Tiger Sisters wherever you get your podcast. Now, every episode we get a question from an outside expert, and I apologize in advance for this. So why would you apologize? Here's yours. Bring it on. Take a look. Hi, I'm Hillary Clinton.

I used to be Secretary of State. I know a lot of diplomats. And I have a question, or maybe two or three, for Carrie Russell, who stars in The Diplomat. Honestly, where are you getting these ideas? Who goes and pulls a dress out of a drawer and wears it to Buckingham Palace? I don't know about that. Or every time you show up, something seems to explode. Honestly, Carrie, I do appreciate you bringing attention to being a foreign service officer and serving our country, which is a pretty cool thing to do. But you have put badass into Ambassador, that's for sure. Epic. Oh, my gosh, Deborah's going to lose her fucking mind. Oh, my gosh, that's so great. You know, I met Secretary Clinton when we were filming in London at Ambassador Hartley when

she was there. So Dignitaries. come through London and often will have dinner at Winfield House, or they'll prepare, or it'll be a stopover on the way to a flight or something. And so Secretary Clinton was passing through, and Jane Hartley said, this is the former ambassador. Former ambassador. She said, Hillary, do you want a dinner? Do you want us to, you know? And she said, yeah, I want a dinner of 20 really smart, funny women. And I got to go, which is un-fucking believable. There was, it was so, it was, you know, female editor of The Guardian. She's amazing. A female editor of F.T. Another amazing woman. It was, um, that amazing Australian Prime Minister.

It was all of these, um, Christian Amampur who sat next to me. I mean, it was so. It was the best. It was like one of the best nights in my life, just sitting there and Hillary just having this robust, fun, frank conversation. It was just... She's different in a room, isn't she? She's so warm. She's so funny. She's so capable.

That's what we're going to do in this new podcast. I'm so glad you're doing. I cannot wait for that. Because people don't know her. They don't. They don't. Yeah. I'm going to make her the Betty White of politics, right?

She is. She's so great. But she was joking. there. I mean, she wanted to do a joking one. But she is like, it's so dramatic. Like, I'm like, Hillary, it's a freaking fictional thing. It has to be. You have to make it. It has to be. Because the UK ambassador doesn't have this much. She's not like slinking around. There's not people like choking each other. There's not, you know, like that kind of stuff. It's a TV show. Yes, it's what I said. That's what I said. That's what I said. It's a TV show. But what were you trying to, because you want to portray someone who's smart, but it also has to have dramatic. Right. So you want to seem competent, but you also want it to be funny. And you wanted to be, I mean, was Hillary, you know, taking off her clothes and jumping in a pool to, like, get a point across?

Like, I don't know, maybe. She's still got time. She also wasn't making out with the foreign secretary. We don't know that. We don't know that. She might have. I wouldn't put it with a lot of people. I make out with a lot of people.

You make it with a lot of people on this show. Like a lot. I know. A lot. Yeah. I know. Less making out this new season. Less making out.

Less making out. More like boring marriage. Boring marriage. But because there's bigger fish to fry, I guess. That's correct, yeah. Now, it's also a wish fulfillment. It is. You know, of the idea of who stands up and who doesn't, which is really important.

It was really, yeah, and we don't have to give anything away. But I think a way to say it without giving things away is... What would you do? What would you do? if your boss, even though you love your country, you love your job so much, but what do you do when your boss asks you to do something you don't agree with that might even be illegal? And how far along do you go before you completely lose yourself? Or you don't, or you go along. I'm about to interview Jacob Weisberg, who just wrote

profiles and cowardice and also at the same time I'm going to Michael Lewis, who's written a book about the blockers of Doge, which is two different thing. It's like, I think right now it We all wonder how what you're willing to do. I deal with the tech moguls who are constantly acquiescing. It's a really interesting thematic thing. Yeah. What do you do? And most people go along.

Because it's hard. Yeah. It's really hard to know. And everything I love about this show, aside from like the fun of it, but the root of, you know, the Foreign Service and like USAID and those people, I just have such. affection for and respect for and where this season ends. We just, I hope, if any of them watch it, that there is just, that they feel recognized,

that they feel seen. And especially what happens through Lane with Stewart's character, you know, he's sort of the moral compass of the show in a way. And for him to go through that whole arc, it's for them. It's for, you know, everything that they've gone through. Because in past seasons, you've done things on the edge, too, at the same time. It's who determines what the edge is and who we are as a people, which is really important, I think. Yeah.

It is a good question. I was just talking to someone recently about what do we do with all these people who have compromised when it's over? Yeah, because it's going to be over. Yeah. And then what do you do? I don't know. You know, I was in a writer's meeting. We sit in rooms with all these incredible people and asking a question of this too, yeah.

And we were in with one of the, an ambassador. And we were like, I know, but what do we do when it's over? And he's like, no, no, it's broken. It's broken. It is. He goes, we're going to have to build, rebuild. It's broken. And we were like, easy to break.

Hard to fix. Yeah. Sort of like the link that are easy to break. They're all easy to break. That, I think, has been the biggest lesson of how easy it is to break things. Yeah. I mean, demolished. Right.

Which is I think you depict really. well. Now, you do a lot of research. You've spent time with former ambassador Jane Hartley, only the second female ambassador to the UK at 200 years. Isn't that insane? Would you learn from talking to these ambassadors? What's incredible about them is, like, watching Jane operate, she can talk to anybody. She makes everyone feel comfortable. She's so smart. She can follow everything, all the conversation. She knows about everything. She's read everything. And also is like really graceful, too. They're just really competent, alive people, and they're fun to be around. And it's just fascinating.

Their specialties, how they choose to use their intellect, their experience, they're just fascinating people. And how they speak and present themselves. Now, you just noted you're in the room. You're an executive producer on the show. What does that do for you? Because a lot of people are executive producers. How involved are you from a creative perspective? Like talk a little bit out what a gray area is like when you're the EP and also the lead.

How is it different? You have to be a good example. You know, you can't be a brat. I mean, not that I would be a brat anyway, but, you know, that's part of it. You know, strike me as a brat. Yeah. You have to, you know, show up. You need to, you know, lead by example.

And I don't know. You get to take part in the overall piece. more. You know, you're asked questions and you get to help make decisions about who's directing, who's the director of photography. Why do you want to do that? I think you should. You just, you just have more control over it. Your opinion matters a little bit more. Is that important for especially a one actor? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. You want to have your stamp on it a little bit more. And you want to know that, you know, I don't work all the time. I take long breaks in between. And so you just want to know that when you do work, it's the quality that you want.

We'll be back in a minute. What if we told you there was one thing you could eat to reduce your risk of death by about a quarter? Interested? And what if we added that this magical substance can dramatically lower your cholesterol, improve your mood, and keep your weight stable? No, it's not Protein. It's actually fiber, the least sexy, most overlooked nutrient of all. But what is fiber? How could one nutrient do all those amazing things? And how can you get enough? Is a powder you stir into some water going to do it for you? All that plus the strange tale of the gorilla poop obsessed father of cornflakes in the latest episode of Gastropod. Find Gastropod and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.

Everyone's talking about the prospect of a democratic wave in the the midterm elections. But here's something that matters just as much. The battle to control state legislatures. That's the most important thing we should be focusing on right now. The GOP has a trifecta in 23 states, which means they control the governor's seat plus the statehouse and the state senate. For Democrats, it's 16 states. Meaning that the opportunity to pass the policies that the majority of our state supports, things like increasing minimum wage, legalizing marijuana, codifying abortion. If Democrats flip just a handful of state legislatures,

the majority of Americans will now live in the state under full Democratic control, which could have big policy implications. That's all on the table with a Democratic trifecta. This week on America, actually, we're in Wisconsin, and we talk to Francesca Hong. We have an opportunity through Wisconsin to actually start improving the brand for Democrats. Catch us every Saturday on YouTube, or we'll be. wherever you get your podcast.

Now, Kate's relationship with her husband, former investor, Hal Weil, are played by Rufus Sewell, is at the heart of the show. They're fiously competitive and supportive of each other at the same time and teeter on the edge of divorce at the start of this series. All the time, all the time, Emily. I was like, just break up. I know. It's true.

Emily Nussbaum and New Yorker called it a tricky marriage. That quote, feels less like a love affair than a NATO negotiation. Talk about that dynamic. And how would you describe the marriage? It is a tricky one to describe, but I think that's just their language. I think they are a couple that is sort of loosely based on this couple that Deborah knows. I know. I think I have an idea. Yeah. You definitely know these people.

They're based on this couple that Deborah is really close with. And they are both really passionate, smart people who, who fight with each other all the time. And are also career competitive. Totally. And I just think... And she started off at a lesser... He was sort of the lion.

I think so. Yeah, yes. Absolutely. Yeah. And she surpasses him. Yeah. And I think the main thing about the relationship is the power is always shifting.

So one year, he's like in this really powerful position. And then the next year, suddenly she's doing something. something interesting, and he's in the wanting part of it. I think they're fiercely protective of each other, which is a really good quality. And I think their love language is sort of that debating political, I think they both want to change the world and be in the room. Also think they're the ones that have to do it. The ego is enormous. I think a lot of those people Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. And one of the, I think, almost the saddest thing is their phone conversations. And when they say goodbye, bye, bye, click. Yeah. Yeah. It's really. It's sharp. It's sharp. Yeah. They're both wounded in a weird way. Definitely. And I think even if they were to be divorced, they would still be that close. Like, they're just, they're that couple. They, which is a really fun. So how would you describe it? Like, impossible and great and exciting.

and I love their relationship. You know, like you have that person who, when you see them, they just know everything and they know what you did and your personal story. And they know where to get you. They know where to get you. And which they often do. They never don't take the opportunity to wound each other. To wound.

Yeah. And I think they'll be that forever. Yeah. Whether they're together or not. Yeah. By the way, art is imitating life. The White House just asked Kimberly Guilfoyle to resign as U.S. ambassador to Greece. I'm sure you based your character on.

I did. Everything. Pay by America of Expressville. Could you die? I mean, you can't write it. You can't write it. Crime and in plain sight. I mean, it's.

Oh, man, too corrupt for the Trump administration. That's an interesting. Wow. Wow. Wow. Oh, that's the one. That's where you're going to draw the line. That's where they're drawing the line.

It's too much. It's too much. I won't pay the bill. It's like, oh my God. How dare you steal money when I should be the one stealing money. It's so stupid. Yeah, it is really stupid. Yeah.

Exactly. And of course, they're taking the girl down. The girl. Yeah. That's too much. Yes, exactly. We can steal money. This is too much.

Not her. Not her. Back to your show. You need a character like that, like who's not a career one. You should drag one in, like one of the friends, the present kind of thing. Yeah, exactly. Now, Kate, speaking of Kate, she does not dress like an ambassador. She's visibly uncomfortable in anything but her black pants suit.

She will put under dress and heels when she absolutely has to. and immediately take the heels off when she has to move. Talk about the look of the character, because there are definite choices. Costumes of wigs were a big part of your character in the Americans. It's true. What were you doing here? I love that part of the character.

I think... The unmade bed. I love it. I love it. I think so many women in front-facing positions have to look a certain way. and it's uncomfortable. You know, not everyone wants to dress like that. And I think Kate thinks what she's doing is important and has nothing to do with that.

So she's like, why would I dress like that? Because she's been behind the scenes. Yeah. I'm not here to be, you know, a fashion model or something. And my hair doesn't need to look a certain way. I'm here for my ideas and what I think about things. And I think no matter what job you're in, I think women relate to that. I'm sure some men relate to it, but I think it really hits women.

And I love all that stuff. And I think it's very true. The hair, particularly. The hair, oh my God. Yeah. You don't wear your hair like that, do you? What, like messy and, like, in need of a brush. Even I'm like, and I am the sloppiest dress hair.

Brush your hair. I love her hair. great. Yeah. I think it's great. Yeah, it's always a hot mess. Speaking of which, I want to play this clip. I think your most significant relationship is with Grace Penn in a lot of ways. Yeah. Yeah. Because the two of you sparked so well. And this is from season two, Gray's Penn is still vice president. She's given Kate some advice. No one will read your policy papers. Best case, a soundbite will go viral once a year.

Meanwhile, your face will appear in the media an average of 12,000 times a day. Every classroom in America. Every embassy in the world will hang your picture on the wall. It's soft power. So you've got a couple of choices. Wear a suit like the military wears a uniform, disappear, hide the individual behind the duty to serve, or get a gimmick, blonde bob, red lipstick, pins like Albright, collars like RBG, glasses, a shorthand so people see what you stand for, and little girls dress like you for Halloween. I think I'm opting for the suit that makes you disappear. Are you?

Black suit. Every now and then a navy suit. What do you think it broadcasts? As little as possible. Looking to the north, you probably think your hair says you're too busy serving your country to get a blowout.

But it reads as bedhead, which sends a signal, I think, in this case, is better unsent. East and west, try a bra with a little padding. I know there's not much to hide, but when your jacket open, I'm getting headlights, which takes us to the South. Is that a paperclip?

Oh, yes, I had a zipper issue. When you're a second-tier diplomat in a Third World War Zone, that may read as scrappy. If you're representing the interests of 300 million Americans whose health care is failing, whose planet is burning, whose future might get a little bit better or a little bit worse based on what you do in the course of a day,

it's best to look like the care of your trousers wasn't more than you could manage. She's the best. That is the finest scene in the land. Right? I mean, and she has a point. I'm getting headlights. Is that a paper clip?

Is that a paper clip? But she's remarkable here. She's remarkable. And she's kind of a mentor to you. It changes over time, but there's a competitive angle. Talk about playing with her, because especially in the more contentious scenes of which escalate. Talk about their dynamic, because to me, that's the significant relationship in this show. I mean, I get the husband part.

But really the significant relationship is with her. And she, you know, whatever you may feel for her big moves or the truth is she's doing it. Treason, really. Yeah, I mean, and it just continues. Yeah, in the third season. She is able to look presentable. And she has been in that world, this very male world, and she's successful in doing it really well. I one time had a meeting with Nora Ephron.

I was much younger. Oh my God, she was amazing. She was a friend of mine. And I sat with her. I just had a baby. And I was kind of like bragging, oh, well, I don't really have a nanny because I just do this and blah, blah, blah. And she just looked at me and took a long pause and like really drunk me in, you know. And she said, you need to take yourself more seriously.

And I love her. She died. I fucking died. And she was right. But that's exactly what that character is like, yeah. Yeah, you think it's like cute. I get it. Take it seriously.

Yeah. She was a very good mother, by the way. Yeah. Yeah. I just saw her son recently. When you think about that relationship, talk about the relationship between Grace Penn and Kate and then you and Allison. How do you work that?

Because she's really dislikable in this show. She's really disliked. Which is something you can't do with her. No. And she in life, Janie is so. likable. She's so kind of... In most of her roles. She's so, in her own person, is so delicate and lovely and cautious and kind and funny. And we have a really silly, naughty relationship with each other.

But I think actors like that who get to play, for instance, Janie playing Grace Penn, you get to exercise this thing that you don't normally do in your real life. So even her other old. CJ was such a good, perfect woman. Perfect woman. Not unsimilar in looks or intelligence. But now she gets to be, I mean, I don't know what scene it is or what episode, but towards the end of this season, there's a point where she looks and she goes,

watch yourself. And you're like, oh, like. Yeah. And I think she just relishes being mean because she doesn't do that in her real life. Right. Yeah, it's a real shift for her. You know, in a major twist in season three, Grace chooses Hal as her vice president when your character thinks they're getting the role and were groomed for the role. When you thought about that twist, it was a great twist. But about women in power, after all that preparation, it goes to the husband. Yeah. Well, okay, a million things. Number one, for an actor, for a character, it's the best because you always want to be losing. Losing is way more important. interesting than someone who's winning all the time. Winning is boring to watch, but to lose, that was so humiliating. Even to just do the scene is so humiliating. You've built yourself up.

You've given yourself this little tiny idea that actually maybe I do want to do it. Maybe I do want this job. Yeah, she did. And then to have it like swept away from you in such a humiliating way was delicious. But in reality, are they really going to have a country who can't elect even one woman? You're going to have two women? No, in no way. So you're going to choose the handsome guy who's a better counterpart for her. So it does make sense, but it's still awful.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, no, it is. You could see because she wanted it. She actually did and we acknowledge it. Now, season four premieres today. Bring us it to speed. Who is she in season four and what she dealing with? Season four, so season three ended with Kate and Hal.

Stealing, stealing the nuke. Stealing the nuke. And not letting Kate in on it. Yeah. And so Kate has to, I guess, figure out if she's going to stay in the marriage after all, this massive deception and figure out what that was about. And then very quickly, bigger problems arise. Right, right, absolutely. But she's here where she thinks she's in the inside and she's not on the inside at all.

And he's having a significant relationship with Grace Penn. Yeah. So when you were approaching the season, what's your, what's the state of mind? I mean, it starts a mess. And then in this incredible way that I think is true to life, a bigger out external problem enters. And then it sort of unites you again, you know, because sometimes the outside. world, you unify again against the outside world. And I think that is what happens pretty immediately. Because you've been knocked off your, and you're the smartest girl in the room. Yeah. Yeah. And you need to

reestablish that. And I need to like not, but not speak and told constantly to not speak. Because you do believe in hierarchy in a weird way. Your character does. Absolutely. I believe in the order. Right. Yeah. Of, you know, the process. Absolutely. Right. Yeah. But, but yeah, she thinks she's the smart. artist one in the room. And she has to do something with it. How would you characterize this season if you had one word without giving it away? Oh, gosh.

I mean, well, you said it. It's sort of a wish. Like, to me, it's a wish of what I would have hoped would have happened for us. But we didn't get any of this. We didn't get any of it now. Do you know what I mean? Whizlings.

We didn't get... Prislings and collaborators. Right? It's wild. Talking with people all the time. I mean. And without any care to allies. Because allyship is a lot of this season.

And I learned so much on this show about that early on. And to think all of that, you know, there's so many steps of diplomacy and everything with Great Britain, with Canada. I mean, it's the fracturing of the absolute destruction. So I'm going to finish up. You have only a few more minutes. In your real life, you're the mom of three, as you said, and your partner, Matthew Reese is a working actor. I hear he's won some awards.

I don't really care. No, he's currently starring in the hit series Widows Bay. And you live in New York, and you said you live a quiet little life. How do you keep your life normal and quiet, especially with kids, teenagers, right? Yeah. Well, we have 1914 and 10. So college student, I'm not. Yeah.

We have a pretty average life. I think it helps that. work all the time. We try to take turns so someone's home doing the normal stuff and someone's away hopefully doing something they like. And I think it helps that we don't have a ton of actor friends or fit. You know what I mean? Our friends are just regular people. The normals? The normals. You know what I mean? Yeah. And I think that makes our life nice. Would you want to do another show with him? I would totally work with him again. He's so good. I mean, I have to say, I always say that I never really wanted to be an actor

because I didn't grow up, you know, I didn't go to Rada or something. You know what I mean. Like I'm not some amazing trained actor. But working with him, he was one of the first people I really worked with that I was like, whoa, what is he doing? He's doing all this extra stuff, you know? And it was really... Who taught you something? Really.

Absolutely. And inspired me. I was like, oh, shit. I see what he's doing. That's more complex. I was also really... I get embarrassed all the time, and he didn't have any of that. When he's working, he's totally, like, free.

He would be naked all the time. And, you know, and he's not like some, I mean, I'm with him. I love him. I think he's great. But he's not like some worked out, like, he would just be naked. No big deal. He has, he's really comfortable. Right.

And that was really appealing. Yeah. And what would you want to do? What would you, if you could pick something? I don't know. You can wander into this series. Yeah. Maybe.

Oh, wait. Maybe. You never know. I have two more questions. Yeah, yeah, sure. If you weren't an actor, what would you be? You keep saying you're not an actor. You are trained, which is you're a very good actor, FYI.

Trained or not, it seems like you're good at it. I wanted to be, I mean, and I still, like, I wanted to be like, you know, like Amelia Earhart or Margaret meet. I just wanted to like travel and adventure. And in a way, I do get to do that. My job, I travel all over the world. I create these little lives for six months at a time and have these little adventures. Probably something like that or just sit and read all the time. I would like time to just read. I know that feeling. Yeah. Yeah. And my last question, when you think about right now Hollywood what's happening, you've had a very successful career. It moves very clearly forward.

Alison Janney's the same way, very much so. How do you look at Hollywood right now? There's all these changes happening. There's all these mergers, acquisitions. How does it affect a working actor like you? Well, it doesn't affect me right in this moment, but something Matthew and I talk about a lot, I just think there's time, we feel time.

I think this is limited. I think with, AI and where everything is moving. I don't know. This is probably limited. I was so lucky that I got to be a part of this, what do they call it, like prestige TV? Yeah. It was such a fun, a way to like extend storytelling where it wasn't just a two-hour movie. There was something really amazing about these eight, ten episode series where you could really parse out and start. stretch out the story and like a good book more like that, more detailed. And I just feel so lucky I got to be a part of that. And if you were a young actor today, it's harder, right? I think so. And who knows what's going to happen? You know, I just don't know what's in store. I think what will survive, I think, are live performances, theater maybe. Which you've done, yeah.

I think that will still do well, but who knows how this is all going to shake out. So you don't want carry AI. I don't know. Should I want Carrie? I don't want to live on forever. I want to like sneak away and go read my books in the woods. I just saw something say I want to. But you did that. You sent me that thing. I know. I want to disappear and then you turn into a rumor. That's what I want to do. Turn into a rumor. Slowly disappear. Anyway, Carrie, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. One of my favorite things that you do on this show, either the character or you, but the way you flounce out of rooms, is my very favorite. Because I flounce out of rooms. You're a flouncer.

I'm a flouncer. And I have to, and loud flouncer. And I like that this character just does that, no matter the cost. No matter the cost. No matter the cost. I think that must be you too in some way. Anyway, thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thanks a lot.

Today's show was produced by Vicki Vergilina, Michelle Alloy, Catherine Millsop, Megan Burney, and Madeline LaPlante, Duby. Nishat Kerw is Vox Media's executive producer, podcasts. Special thanks to Bradley Sylvester, Jim Mackle, and Manola Moreno. Our engineers are Fernando Aruta and Rick Juan, and our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, you're a hyper-competent, hot mess with the chops to broker an international treaty. If not, you're just a sweaty lady in a yogurt-stained pantsuit. Go wherever you listen to podcast, search for On with Caras Swisher, and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On with Caraswisher from

Podium Media, New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Monday with more. Support for this show comes from NetSuite. AI isn't just opening new business opportunities. It's changing the way businesses get work done and questions they ask and decisions they make, and the routine tasks they can hand off. That's the idea behind NetSuite Next, the next generation of the business management suite trusted by over 44,000 companies. With AI woven into every tool you already rely on. It surfaces in. sites when you need them, plus agents work on your routine tasks and problems, and it lets you ask complex questions about your business in natural language, just like talking to a colleague.

But technology is only part of the story. AI is also changing how people and teams work together. That's why I want to tell you about a new expert-created business guide that you should download today. It's called Aligning for the Agentic Era, how AI is changing everyday work. And right now, it's absolutely free. In this guide, you'll see how AI can reshape work across your organization and how you can prosper from it. If your revenues are at least in the seven figures, go to netsuite.com slash on. Get your free guide at net suite.com slash on.

That's net suite.com slash on. NetSuite.com slash on.