On with Kara Swisher - Labor Day Special: Hacks On Tap

Episode Date: September 1, 2025

Happy Labor Day! Today, we’re bringing you a special episode from our friends at Hacks on Tap. This one is hosted by David Axelrod and John Heilemann, and they’re joined by Rahm Emanuel, the former White House Chief of Staff, mayor of Chicago and ambassador to Japan.  The trio discusses President Trump’s threats to deploy the National Guard in Chicago, the FBI’s investigation into former National Security Advisor John Bolton, the collapse of the Ukraine peace talks, the high-stakes redistricting battles in Texas and California, and more. Questions? Comments? Email us at [e-mail] or find us on YouTube, Instagram, TikTok, and Bluesky @onwithkaraswisher. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, everyone from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. This is on with Kara Swisher, and I'm Kara Swisher. Happy Labor Day. Today, we're bringing you a special episode from our friends at Hacks on Tap. This episode is hosted by David Axelrod and John Heiloman, and they're joined by Rahm Emanuel, the former White House Chief of Staff, Chicago Mayor, and Ambassador to Japan. I've had Ram on a couple of times, and he always has great insights. On this episode, he's discussing President Trump's threats to deploy the National Guard in mom's hometown of Chicago, the FBI's investigation into former's national security advisor John Bolton, the collapse of the Ukraine peace talks, and the high-stakes redistricting battles

in Texas and California. It's an insightful conversation with three smart guys, so have a listen. I'll be back in your feed on Thursday with a fresh new episode of On. Robin Hood. Wouldn't it be great to manage your portfolio on one platform? With Robin Hood, not only can you trade individual stocks and ETFs. You can also seamlessly buy and sell crypto at low costs. Trade all in one place. Get started now on Robin Hood.

Trading crypto involves significant risk. Crypto trading is offered through an account with Robin Hood Crypto LLC. Robin Hood Crypto is licensed to engage in virtual currency business activity by the New York State Department of Financial Services. Crypto held through Robin Hood Crypto is not FDICN. short or CIPIC protected. Investing involves risk, including loss of principle. Securities trading is offered through an account with Robin Hood Financial LLC,

member CIPIC, a registered broker dealer. When you're with Amex Platinum, you get access to exclusive dining experiences and an annual travel credit. So the best hapice in town might be in a new town altogether. That's the powerful backing of Amex. Terms and conditions apply. Learn more at Amex.ca slash Y-Amex. Hey, hey, pull up a chair.

It's Hacks on Tap with David Axelrod and Mike Murphy. As you all know, Chicago's a killing field right now. And they don't acknowledge it. And they say, we don't need them. Freedom, freedom. He's a dictator. A lot of people are saying maybe we like a dictator. So, John Heilman, I'm on the record right now saying,

I really don't want a dictator. I'm not into the dictator thing. And I'm really not into as a Chicagoan. I am not into this false depiction of our city as a hellscape. I'm looking at the window at the lake and Grant Park and people, you know, enjoying the final ends of summer. And one of the guys who helped make Chicago great is sitting right here, Rahm Emanuel, the former mayor, collector, collector of fancy title.

Former White House Chief of Staff, former Congressman, former Ambassador. Chairman of the D-Troble-C, former Ambassador to Japan. Okay, thanks for joining us today. That's all we have time for, Ram's titles. You got a couple, you missed two titles. What's that? Oh, God. Go ahead.

Senior Advisor of President Clinton and father of three. Okay. All right, good. Great. We got them all now. Best for last. The best is last. Somehow the Ari didn't get mentioned anywhere in there.

You think like Ari should get like brother of Ari should be like in the list somewhere. No, don't insult Zeke that way. Oh, okay. Sorry, brother of Zeke. The third of Manuel brother. So when you guys look out the window, you're both in Chicago. Do you see scenes of like NOMPenn in like 1974, Sydney-Shaunberg kind of killing field style? Or is it a little different what you say?

So you know what? I mean, I have to say this has been a great summer. And these last few weeks have been great. And you walk along the riverwalk that Rahm had a lot to do. do with uh no mass graves and uh no there's a lot of the lot of people enjoying the day and drinking beer i will say that but uh but at nine a m the breakfast of champions this is a great this is a great and vibrant city and uh it's a it's still a wonderful tourist the destination and so on but rom one of the things that you know just since we are hacks on tap one of the things that uh you know

I think is a trap that one has to avoid. We do have violence problems. We do have crime problems, just like every city. Some of them are peculiar to ours. You had to deal with it as mayor. I mean, there is an element of Trump sort of baiting a trap here, isn't there? That's why, I mean, I 100% agree. And rather than have this legal brief prepared,

you should brief as it relates to the National Guard and go to court. But on the facts, you should say, look, we have, We have made progress, but we have some persistent problems, like carjacking, like recruitment of officers, somebody that actually worked for President Clinton and put 100,000 community police officers on the street. You want to permanently start recruiting officers. That's a permanent problem, not a performative problem for a performative act on the National Guard that will be here a week.

You want to get these license plate readers so you can actually crack down on car attacking. Be a partner. I mean, Democrats just articulate. We're for more police on the street and getting kids, guns, and gangs off the street, invest in those areas, and we will sustain the momentum we have and really build on it. But, you know, rather than say no, look at the data, say yes, and here's how you can help. But the problem is, like the redistricting, President Trump never misses an opportunity to divide Americans rather than try to figure out how to make progress on solving some real problems we have.

And there's public safety issues in the sense of, as you know, it's a mindset, of psychology. And rather than deal with it, he's in a permanent way and being a way to figure it out, he's actually figured a way to divide Americans and not really solve it. Well, it works for him, John. It works. This crime and immigration are touchstones for him. They're his go-to play, especially when things aren't going well on other stuff. he happily goes back there, and he's got generalissimo, generalissimo, Stephen Miller,

you know, on point, and, and this shit has worked for him. Well, yes, and no, and here's what I mean. Take it one out of time. If you look at, if you look at Trump's numbers on these issues, he's basically been on a whole bunch of things. He's been underwater on the economy, on inflation, on the whole and on crime for months. He was not underwater on immigration until mid-June. What happened in mid-June was he did the L.A. raid.

And you started seeing people getting plucked out of Home Depot parking lots and the most egregious ice thing started happening, right? So he now underwater on all those issues. It is true that he's still at a better position on crime and immigration than he is on the economy. but he's underwater on everything now. And the extremeness, some of the extremity of what people are seeing seems to be provoking some revulsion in the middle of the country. Rahm, I'm sorry, I just want to finish the point, which is I don't think it's, it's not working like,

it's not like this is now his, well, everything else is going wrong, but this is really working for him. I guess I should have said this is his comfort zone. This is his go-to-to-flash-fair. You know, this reminds me replay the tape in 2018, the Republicans in the House are saying, go to the economy, and he went to immigration, he went to all the cultural issues, and they

end up, the midterm was obviously... The caravans. The caravans. Yeah, the caravans. He closed on the caravans in 18. It didn't work for him. Two points. One is, what do you know, I saw this thing. I don't know why, but the Bloomberg put it out, but it was...

Amberbee, ground beef today is the most expensive it's ever been in the history of the United States. Six bucks and 12 cents a pound. He does not want to talk about it. us. Because there's a focus on the fact that I'll solve inflation in a day, like I'll solve Ukraine in a day, realizes he's a failure. The second thing, to your point on both on immigration and this issue, the border was a local point of chaos. Yeah. Trump's raids, etc. in Los Angeles,

he became the focal point of disorder. People do not like disorder. And that's why the immigration and also, and I think on this National Guard, these issues will not turn out to be the political cash cow that he thinks they are, because he's making himself the focal point of the disorder, and people do not like that dissonance and disorder. Interestingly, yesterday, he seemed to sort of backtrack and say, well, I'll send him if, yeah, I'll send them. I don't have the clip, but he said, I'll, you know, I want to be asked.

I want Pritzker to ask me to send them, and, and which was, I think Christopher will not ask he is that I can. Well, here's his answer. Here's the answer. Earlier today in the Oval Office, Donald Trump looked at the assembled cameras and asked for me personally to say,

Mr. President, can you do us the honor of protecting our city? Instead, I say, Mr. President, do not come to Chicago. So he had a lengthy response to to Trump yesterday. And Rahm, I know you guys are friends. You're also potential future rivals because you're both mentioned as potential candidates for president. But I thought he handled yesterday really well. 100%. I thought he looked good. Yeah, I will. If I can, just out of my pride is, no, I'm glad he took everybody to the riverwalk. I know. I know. I know where you were going. No, I know, and it was great, and he came in by the water taxi, too.

Yeah, the water taxi. I heard that. Great town, folks, if you're listening, visit Chicago with this, especially this time of year. It's just a wonderful place to be. I think, actually, and I compliment J.B. As a craftsman of politics, which is the visual tells, it's not the data about here's how much homicides down, et cetera. If there's a problem, you got to inform the people on the river walk.

You got to inform all the people that are enjoying looking. at the architectural tour of the city. The picture is the story. He also had the entire leadership of the city, political leadership of the city and state behind him. And I think that he made the points that we made earlier about, yes, we have a problem. And there are ways that you can help, but not cutting every single program that has actually been effective in beginning to reduce crime in the city. Right. I mean, this is somebody that worked hard, as mayor, increased our police force by over a thousand folks. Every city is facing a challenge on recruitment.

Help there, put resources towards recruiting officers. Even if you, and I don't think he'll send the National Guard of Chicago, they come and go, like in D.C. They're going to just flipping it out. That's not a permanent, sustained effort. Invest in license plate readers so you can deal with carjacking. Invest in after-school programs for kids aren't on the same. street now that schools back in and violence intervention programs which actually are very very effective but just you know there are there arnie duncan the former education secretary john had a great piece

in the times yesterday about his own program uh which he heroically runs uh to try and uh interdict violence and recruit people who at or once gang members to help uh to help uh you know before these things erupt. And they've had, uh, they've had a palpable effect. And there are other great programs in the city that do that, all of which, uh, are being defunded. So there are things that Trump could do that don't have political currency for him, uh, as he thinks sending, uh, troops does how do you, how you guys think the Washington thing is working for him? Well, I, look, like, I believe that, that this, this conversation has been totally devoid and devoid of and disconnected from any substance, any policy discussion that has anything to do with crime,

I believe one of the people on this show right here. Our discussion or? No, the discussion. There's the public discussion. I thought earlier in the show for you to start, you know, critiquing us. Rahm is very sensitive. You're citing. Rob is very sensitive.

You're citing Arnie Duncan. And I'm like, yeah, sure, there's like, there's all kinds of great policy ideas, some, most of them been inadequately funded in a lot of big cities around the country. that could help with the issues at the core of the crime issues and the urban disorder issues that do exist in a lot of these places. But I heard Rom, I think, over the weekend saying this is obviously not a, these are not crime, the policies in New York and in New York and Washington and putatively in Chicago and Baltimore. These are mostly about Trump trying to pursue the immigration agenda to be able to get. Yes. To be able to get ICE agents on the streets.

So they can hit their quota number. So this is really, this is an immigration deportation policy, masquerading as a crime policy, partly because of what we were talking about before, which is that people are very uncomfortable politically out in the country with the way that Trump's been going after, trying to make those numbers. Again, we go back to Home Depot. When you got Joe Rogan against you, you got a problem if you're Donald Trump on immigration, so what do you do? You call it a crime policy thing.

But you look at what's happening in Washington, David, to your question, that shows this. There's no, the people that are taking into federal magistrate court on open, container violations. They're walking in front of federal judges with people they've arrested for open can of swarms of federal agents arresting people with fucking bonkers. But here's here's, look, I mean, really, you got to have a strategy of, as I said, putting more cops on the beat and getting kids, guns, and gangs off the street. They got to go back to prosecuting gun crimes, prosecuting gang members, give kids these after

school mentoring programs that have worked. We have a great program that Maggie Daly started called AfterSchool Matters. We clustered up under my tenure, about 100,000 kids a day after the bell goes off at school, have athletic, academic, artistic activity. They work. And then police officers, well-trained, sustain that reduction. Any one of those, the president can pick and you'll be solving that. These is trying to get the goods through customs here, which is this is an immigration policy,

a distraction from the price of groceries and gas. at the store and all the other domestic issues, and he gets the added kicker. It's wrapped in a package of division, which he loves. Just I want to say once again, because I thought Maureen Dowd had a really good column on Sunday about this. There is crime, and I was on the L-ROM a couple of weeks ago, and some guy was blasting his music really loud,

and I was coming down from reading our subway system. There was a guy who got off the train on one of the stops before I got off, and he said something to the guy on the way out, and the guy flew out of his seat and dragged the guy back in the train, and it starts wailing on him, and the guy starts wailing back. That, that's, everybody on that train was discomforted by what they saw, and there's, that kind of stuff is real. Israel. We should, but let's also be real about what it takes to deal with it. And the fact that we haven't mentioned yet, like some of the worst cities in the country relative to crime are in red states. And no one is saying, let's send the national guard there. Right. In fact, the opposite, David. In fact, what's happening in Washington is that those red states are sending their national guard to the capital to be part of Trump's force. I just, before we talk,

I want to, actually, I want to ask you guys about the politics of this relative to Newsom, Pritzker, and now West Moore, who's now kind of emerging on this front. But before we do that, just going back to the very first clip that we played, which is Trump saying, some people, to say, might want a dictator. He goes on to say in that clip, well, I'm not a dictator. I don't think I'm a big dictator. I think I'm a guy with common sense. I think I would like to hear both of you ask to answer the question of what you think this is all really about, because I think all these discussions about what, crime policies would be best in these cities and states are totally beside the point of what they are you know you're right you're right so the question is it goes to to dictator and again

without being hyperbolic about it in the capital now has 2,000 armed federal agents on the street in the capital of Washington DC carrying carrying rifles and other arms okay they're being brought in from red states around the country. I am, if you saw this in another country, you know exactly what you were, and at the same time, he's firing a lot of people who lead federal law enforcement and deprofessionalizing

federal law enforcement. So what is this really about? He also signed a executive order yesterday directing the Secretary of Defense to develop a standing sort of SWAT team of National Guardsmen to deal with what he called civil disorder in the country. Look, you have to be sort of willfully ignorant to look at that and not say that these are elements of fascism. These are elements of autocracy. And, you know, you slide into

these things. You don't just arrive there. And, Rob, we've gone, I've said this to you, we talk from time to time. I've said this. I said, I said, we have gone from zero. to Hungary faster than I ever imagined. Faster than Hungary went to Hungary. Yes, exactly. Can I make two points, though? One, we're talking about, obviously, the National Guard on the heels of what just happened in Texas and redistricting.

The common theme between both of those events is division in America, putting, hitting one American against another, rather than figure out how to solve our problems, we'll have a debate about them. You say that I actually think you're wrong on this. John, if I can, I actually think American people are hungry for a debate about how do you actually solve public safety. Put that aside. I don't disagree with you about that, Rob. I think they're hungry for that debate. They're not getting up. Straw man, straw man alert. Good. Okay. Common theme is division and divisive diss, just like what he's doing on the Federal

Reserve. Number two, I actually think that there's a thread here. His big military parade for his birthday was a bust. And he wants, he's going back to that first term when he saw Bastille Day in France, et cetera. He loves kind of the imagery and the performative of the military. It is in service of what David said. And I think this National Guard again is both, it's not serving one thing. It's both the divisiveness of America keeps us distracted from dealing with real issues, and then second, it allows him to have the performative around kind of the military and him as the kind of the groom on the wedding cake of that military embellishment and the authority. All of that is true, Rahm.

But when you put it together with everything else, when you put it together with everything else, when you put it together with FBI agents showing up at John Bolton's house, When you put it together with him, you know, as you point out, sort of completely firing career military people, firing professional law enforcement people and substituting political hacks for them. When you see what happened at the Federal Reserve where Trump had, you know, a hack who he appointed to a key position in the federal housing. administration, rifling through the files of his political enemies and making allegations that then get shipped to his Justice Department that is completely politicized now. And at his, he said, yesterday, I'm the chief law enforcement officer of the country. He's telling the Justice Department what to do.

These are not benign ceremonial thing. I agree. Right. I'm about disagree. And just to go back, Rahm, I'll say. Just, David said, strongman alert. Hit him again. I think the country is hungry for a debate on crime.

I don't think that they're, that's what Trump is giving them. That's all I was saying. Okay. No, he, what he's setting up is a faux debate on crime. I said, no, in fact, they do want a debate. They do want a debate. They do want a debate. They do want a debate. A real debate.

They know we're not focused on, we got real challenges, real problems, and we're doing everything but dealing with them. Okay, let's take a break right here for a word from our sponsor, and we'll be right back. Support for On with Kara Swisher comes from Grooons. If you've ever gone down the internet rabbit hole of trying different nutrition solutions, you likely found a bunch of weird conspiracy theories that range from eating everything you can find to starvation. Thankfully, there is a product that can help improve your skin, gut health, and immunity without the crazy ideas attached to them. It's called Grooons.

Grooons are a convenient, comprehensive formula packed into a daily snack pack of gummies. It's not a multivitamin, a greens gummy, or a prebiotic. It's all of those things, and then some, for a fraction of the price. In a Grooons daily snack pack, you get more than 20 vitamins and minerals, six grams of prebiotic fiber, and more than 60 ingredients. They include nutrient, dense, and whole foods, all of which help you out in different ways. For example, Grooons has six times the gut health ingredients compared to the leading greens powders. It contains biotin and NIA-CMI, which helped with thicker hair, nails, and

skin health. They also contain mushrooms, which can help with brain function. And of course, you're probably familiar with vitamin C and how it's great for your immune system. On top of all, Grooons are vegan and free of nuts, dairy, and gluten. Get up to 52% off when you go to Grooan's.co and use the code Kara. That's G-R-U-N-S dot CO using the code Kara, K-A-R-A, for 52% off. This week on Net Worth and Chill, you sent in your messiest money dilemmas, and I'm here to deliver the verdicts. From the couple stuck in a mortgage with their brother-in-law to the wedding and bachelorette parties costing an arm and a leg, we're unpacking the most cringeworthy cash conflicts that are testing relationships and moral boundaries. Whether your team justified financial boundaries or team, that's just cold.

This episode will have you questioning everything you thought you knew about money etiquette. I am honestly quite speechless at this story. Not only are you not the financial a-hole. It sounds like this guy was an actual sociopath, like a terrible, terrible person. Listen wherever you get your podcasts or watch on YouTube.com slash your rich BFF. What is up, people of the internet? My name is Marquez Brownlee, aka MKBHD. And some of the biggest smartphones of the year are about to launch,

including the brand new iPhone 17s around the corner, with a model you've never seen before. So on the Wayform podcast, myself and co-host, Andrew Manginelli, and David Amel, gather the biggest tech news of each week and then discuss at length everything we're excited about, and sometimes things we're not so excited about. So this time of year, we like to call Smart Phone Season. So if you're interested in hearing all the latest releases from Apple and Samsung and Google and others, be sure to check out the Wayform podcast on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever we listen.

See you there. David, let me, let me come back to, let me add just three things to your list very quickly. Redistricting, the Trump's drive to get to get extra seats added on the basis of nothing other than his political desire to keep control of House representatives. his now has his increasingly loud campaign against mail and ballots and the other day him coming out and saying that 2020 census is invalid right those are also things that add up to stop the stop the steel stop the steel 2026 with all of this armed militarized stuff going on in the cities it's very very dark we've said it a million times here he does not believe in rules and laws and norms and institutions.

He thinks there's for suckers, the strong take what they want, however they can get it. And he will do anything that he can do to try and keep the House of Representatives from becoming a Democratic House, because then he'll have a source of accountability and a source of oversight. And he knows what happened the last time, and he's worried about all of that. but just the basic oversight and accountability that the Republican Congress has surrendered, he will do anything to stop that from happening. But, you know, a lot of this you can't do, a lot of things he's talking, John, about doing by executive order. But what he is doing is sending a signal to all of these Republican governors about what he wants done.

I'll be interested to see, Rahm, how they handle, you know, mail-in voting, how they handle how they handle voting machines. I mean, look, I said this is a prominent businessman. I said, I don't understand you guys. I don't understand the Republicans in the House of the Senate. I don't understand the Republican governors. Literally, we got screened at and yelled at for, and being called socialist to, God forbid, to give people health care security.

And you have a guy firing the dealing with the independence of the Federal Reserve, calling the National Guards into cities that you can't, don't have the authority to, talking about whether it's the census or other type of areas in the bail and voting.

Everything literally that direct and, as you said, kind of like a mosaic come together and he said it out loud. I'm not a dictator, which is what he wants you to think he is. because, but the fact is, I, I am shocked at the silence and complicitness of a bunch of voices in not only the business created, vulgar party, who literally make the three monkeys

look like an active group. I mean, they see no evil, hear no evil speak. You left out what, what is a more, most recent, and a egregious thing that you would think would have them howling, and that is the, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, you know, he basically coerced Intel into giving the government 10% of nationalization. When we, Ram, you remember, when we stepped in, when we were working for Obama, he stepped in, and in order to save the American auto industry and to save Chrysler and GM, he took a temporary stake in those companies. And made money, made a profit.

He's taking a, he's partially nationalizing the American microprocessor industry, and telling Coca-Cola what kind of sugar to put in its formula. It's nuts. They had pictures of Obama with Hitler's mustache and being called also on the other side of the politicalists, a socialist, for health care for Americans. This guy's, I've never seen anything about it, and they're all silent. Here's what Mitch McConnell said. I don't have the, I could find the audio, but this is what he said about the auto bailout. A government big enough to give us everything we want is a government big enough to take everything we have. And the Republicans were at one in branding it as socialism. They stopped branding it that way when those companies were saved and started flourishing and we got out of it. But because

it was a very successful intervention. But this, now Trump's talking about taking over pieces of defense industry. I mean, this is really profound. And you don't hear crickets. That's my point. It's like literally all these voices that, whether it was also on the housing stuff we did or the stabilization or, as you said, the auto industry, people were screaming about socialism, et cetera, from Nippon steel to taking a fee for NVIDIA to give China leverage over the United States to taking 10% of intel. these are this is mimicking she's sitting there smiling saying I never knew I had a compatriot in this economic model

that I built up here in China and we've replaced at least I believe in Adam Smith's invisible hand who knew we were going to replace it with Donald Trump's judgment no we're we're replacing it we're replacing with Donald Trump's visible hand right in their pockets

is visible a very swollen puffy hand we'll get to that we'll get to that later Um, yes, can we, I want to come back to the politics here because we are one of, let's be hackish here, okay? It's because we haven't done that yet. J.B. Pritzker yesterday said to the press, you guys don't cover this as a horse race thing. Don't talk about who's up, who's down. Don't talk about politics.

Just focus on the substance of this. And I say, thank you for your concerns, Governor Pritzker, but we're going to focus on the politics right now. Especially here, yeah. Right, exactly. So I mentioned West Moore before, right? So so far, we've seen Gavin Newsom move from the, hey, let's have Steve Ben on my podcast mode to, you know,

trolling Trump on Twitter being full on in the fight, fight, fight, you know, fire with fire camp. J.B. has been in that camp all along when he was, I think, the earliest major player in the party to compare the Trump's second term administration to the Nazis back in like February in New Hampshire. Now, as Trump considers going into Maryland, into Baltimore, we have another 2028 contender, West Moore. who's had a slightly different approach to this. We have a little sound, let's play that. As someone who actually deployed overseas and served my country in combat, to ask these men and women to do a job that they're not trained for is just deeply disrespectful. So that was part of what he said.

The other thing he did was he invited Trump to do a ride along with them to sort of say, hey, you think there's bad crime in Baltimore? Things are better here than you think that you are president. Trump, why don't you go up here and take a safety tour with me? I wonder, Rom, what you think about that as a tactic and what you think about how all of this, the ways in which the governors in particular are being put in a position to respond to Trump

and how that plays. Newsom on redistricting. I said Gavin at the very top. I said he's, you know, after Los Angeles, then he's now in the redistricting thing full in. There's a question about whether if that thing fails, that ballot initiative fails in November, whether that capsizes them.

But what do you think about all that? I think for each of them given as an observation and also discuss this, my view is, rather than say we don't have a crime problem, say come and partner with us in building on the momentum we have. And Baltimore, but that's tactically, I think, and I think, put your hack hat on, we're? I am. I think Governor Westmore went to his, each of them are going to their strengths and what they think. And so my hack hat says that each of them are in their. their lane and where their comfort zone is. I happen to think Wes Moore operated where he has the strongest suit that nobody else would go. I think confronting, as Governor Newsom has done on the redistricting Texas, works at his kind of advantage.

So I think each is playing to their A game and correctly playing to their A game, which builds their kind of profile. So I have been critical of Pritzker, not critical. I've suggested I thought it was a bad idea for him to run for a third term. in 2026 because, you know, you have to do with all the burdens of the governorship. He'd be free to travel the country. He has lots of money to do it. But this underscores something. The reason that this plays well with large segments of Democratic voters, I suspect, is because right now they feel helpless. And they look at their leaders and they think they're

effectless and unable to do anything. And these guys have each been handed an opportunity. I mean, Newsom is doing something. You know, Pritzker is confronting him directly and, you know, Westmore suggesting the same. And so it does give you a chance to play off Trump. And that, in a way that the people in Congress can't because they have no control. As much as I think this is an attempt to A, what's going on as an attempt to try to really get the good through custom on immigration, it allows Trump to avoid dealing with the inflation out of control, economic anxiety. All these governors also have bad choices in their own budget.

And so fighting Trump also allows them to kind of push some of the other issues into the background for themselves. So it also, you know, here in Chicago, here in Illinois, We have a big transportation budget shortfall. It allows that kind of recede as part of the news, and this become more dominant. So there's also an added benefit for, you know, they have all three bad choices in their budgets and other things that they have to confront. Those go kind of and recede to the background.

This becomes part of the foreground. It raises the question about, you know, we jumped ahead here, but why the business community is quiet, why the Republicans are quiet, and the answer is fear. The answer is fear. And that's where the Bolton raid, I mean, I don't know what's going to happen with John Bolton. This was looked at once. They stopped, you know, and, but listen to what Trump said about the Bolton raid. Are more raids like the one on John Bolton's house coming? More raids? I don't know.

You'd have to ask the Department of Justice. They raided my house, I can tell you that. They did a big raid on my house. They took away everything that wasn't pinned down and they took away some of that too. No, they raided Mar-a-Lago. They started that. These were

bad people that we had in our government before. They raided Mar-a-Lago. They went into my wife's area. They went into my son's area. My young son. And what they did was a disgrace. I love it when he says, well, that's up to the Department of Justice. And in like in the same period of time he's talking about, I'm the chief law enforcement officer. So he thinks the Department of Justice is running errands for him. You know, the other guy he targeted and just a, and then I'll turn it over to you guys, but was Chris Christie, who you

Rahm are very friendly with them, friendly with him as well. You were on ABC with him for a period of time before you went off to serve in Japan, or was it after? It was before. No, before. It was before. Now he's, now Trump,

now they're, well, listen to what Trump has to say about Chris Christie and Bridgegate. Remember Bridgegate. Do you plan to investigate Chris Christie? Say it what? Do you plan to investigate Chris Christy? Look, Chris is a slob, everybody.

I know Chris better than anybody in the room. I always felt he was guilty. But what he did is he took the George Washington Bridge, which is very serious. He closed down the George Washington Bridge. And you have medical people, you had ambulances caught up. You know, this thing was closed down. And obviously he knew about it.

But he blamed the young lady that worked for him and another person, and they got into a lot of trouble. She ultimately was, I don't know, exonerated, but she got out of it a little bit. But she went through hell. She was a young mother. Nice person. I knew her a little bit.

And another man went to jail. And Chris got off. And so when I listened to Chris speak his hate, I say, oh, what about the George Washington Bridge? You know, tell me about the George Washington Bridge. Basically, there was an intimation that he's going to reopen that case. And the fundamental, John Bolton was with you a week ago, criticizing. him on the on the on the putt and stuff the message is clear the message is clear we're going to use the justice department and anything yeah all the tools yeah i do want to i don't know i'm about to

say something i'm not sure about but you had john bolton write a book had to get through clearance there's a whole security apparatus etc that's years ago I, not, you know, even paranoid people have enemies. Something tells me they've been tracking him in some way because this, there's actually, I mean, not that the other stuff is it nerve-wracking and nervous about the Federal Reserve person or, you know, the National Guard in Chicago. But how they decide, they went to a judge with information to get the capacity to do what they just did. Rackcliffe. It means that they were tracking something. And I say this because the ability to write a book that has national security implications has to go through a level.

You're not just dealing with an editor. They are over that. All the supportive material. What did you have, et cetera? So that was cleared. So how they got to this, one day I want to find the answer. Rob, I believe Jean Racklips has said that I believe it's public, not in detail, but that the CIA provided some. intelligence to the Justice Department.

I know. I'm reinforcing your point with a little bit of detail. Which is a very... Troubling, ominous, scary? This is... It's not just what they say on CNN and being critical. It's the other apper... How they gather the material to go to the judge

tells you that this gives Nixon's enemy list kind of a vanilla or a whitewash painting. This is an incredible breach. of not just norms, but American legal system. David, let me, can I just, just given that that, that's the case, what Rom said is correct. Let me just again, return to the hack point that we departed from for a second, because, of course, these things all pick in, fit into the mosaic. Both of your former colleague, Dan Pfeiffer, said to me the other day that he thinks that

the key division or dividing line in the party heading into 2026 and 2028, is Democrats who understand the existential threat and are then willing to do things at scale to combating the existential threat that Trump and MAGA posed to American democracy, and those who are in denial about it, who are kind of basically, maybe they pay lip service to it, but essentially they are still operating as if we are in ordinary times. Under regular order, do you think that's true, is my question, to both of you? I think that there has to be a real awareness of the stakes. But an awareness of the stakes means, yes, fighting off these incursions in the courts and wherever you can, but ultimately it means winning elections. You can't ultimately

stop this without winning. And to win, you still need to be able to focus on those things that are going to move the people you need to move to win. And so, you know, this is, I don't, I think that this is a deadly serious situation. I think Trump is, is a runaway freight train. But no, I think that it's still true that people are living their lives. Yes. And his failure on the fundamentals of their, the things that they had hoped he would do, particularly as it relates to the economy is still probably more influential with people than some of this. I agree with David on this one point. I would say, and I think the point is, what is going to matter going forward is whether

you think the cost of ground beef being the most expensive have ever been or the state of democracy. And I happen to think, if you want to win elections and you want to talk to where people live their lives, it's what's affecting their lives. I'm not saying that democracy is not important. I'm just saying you have to win elections. and the cost of living and the cost of housing is a more salient issue. I want to be clear about what I don't think Dan was saying.

These people are going to foreground the democracy argument. I'll give you a tangible example of this. Is Newsom, right? In mid-decade gerrymander, that's going to be a ballot initiative, a single ballot issue on the ballot in November when nothing else is on the ballot. Tens of millions, hundreds of millions of dollars are going to get spent on it. Is an extraordinary measure. That's like something Democrats normally wouldn't do.

They have, you know, they're the, California, California has had, has had two separate votes on nonpartisan redistricting commissions. My question is, that's, that's a thing where it doesn't, it's not democracy on the ballot. Of course. Well, I don't hear, I mean, I think it's bullshit to say, uh, it's bullshit for anyone to say, well, you know, we really, it's, it's out of order and we shouldn't do that. I, I, I think what Newsom is doing is the right thing to do. Right. And so I don't think that should even be up for debate. I, you know, there are people who are living in a different decade in a different country.

And, you know, obviously, if you play by one set of rules and Trump plays by another, that gives him an enormous advantage. Totally. So, I mean, I agree. If that's the point Dan was making, I totally agree with it. I think the point is that is that Newsom is willing to do something that with, that is, that is, again, take an extraordinary. risk. And this is, again, part of my question to both of you is, do you think that that risk is basically whether he's a viable candidate in 2028 for president or not? Because a loss on this thing would be a pretty big deal. He's put a lot of chips on the table here pretty early, at least

in my view. So do you guys think that if he loses in November, he's toast? No. For 28? No. Why not? I don't think people are going to vote in a primary based on whether he got redistricting done or not. We live and eat and breathe this. That's not where the America we want. And I think, Ram, I think that the effort, I mean, I think there's a price and failure. I think the effort is worth something for him in terms of the platform that he's got. Well, what do you think, John? You're an Angelino. I think that the amount of focus on this in the fall is going to be huge and he has he is not it's not like a redistricting effort this is like he's made this into a national issue and as i said it's going to be it's going to be an

incredibly uh hard fought expensive race i think it would be a big blow i don't know if it would kill him david i don't know if he'll kill his 28 28 prospects but it will be a major uh hole in the hull of the ship of 2028 john yeah imagine if he didn't do it that would be the blow so i i did not to me Look, I think he's doing exactly right thing. I think Democrats should do, deal stuff with ranked voting because I think it's going to redistricting, it's going to get us basically at best to a status quo. We've got to keep pushing this because they're going to do stuff in 2028. They're going to do stuff in 2020, 30, we have to be ready.

That said, it's not whether this on its own is good or bad. If it did nothing, he'd get killed. So these are the choices you have to make him politics. We're still haven't heard from Indiana, from Missouri, from Florida. We need to take a quick break right now, but we're right back with more of hacks on tap. Google's new Pixel smartphone is here, and like it or not, it's got AI shoved into every nook and cranny. And some of it is actually kind of cool. This week on the Vergecast, we spent a week with a week with.

pixel 10, and we have a lot of thoughts about whether his AI is actually useful. Also, the American government now has a 10% stake in Intel. How? Why? Will you see dividends on your income tax returns? Plus, weird cameras are having a moment. We go through the last five years of surprising photography trends. That's this week on the Vergecast. We have Florida. There's a bunch of states. Florida is definitely going to do redistricting. There's Indiana.

There's some other Republican states. There's been discussion of Michigan, Maryland, Illinois. It'd be hard to Jeremy. That's not going to happen. So what do you guys think? How do you think it nets out in the end? When all the gerrymandering wars are done by the end of this year, where do we net out? Do you ever have a sense of that?

Rom, former D-T-T-T-T-C major domo? I will, I've talked to, I've talked to a number of leaders in the house in the last 48 hours and I said the pro, you got a lot, short term and long term. Short term at best, if we take the states that we could do redistricting, there's something interesting in Utah that just came from the judge. Yeah, right. Okay, but, right, that could be a seat pick-up.

Right, but the fact is, the Supreme Court is a horrible place on American politics and john roberts will go down infamy for what he's done to our political system that said you have to start preparing for 2026 2028 and 2030 and except because they are going to keep doing stuff and to me at best i'm redistricting we get to kind of even or minus three from a kind of but i think this is going to be a big national election that's going to be the verdict on Donald trump and the Republicans. That said, the best way to deal with opening up more seats than making more competitive, get rid of primaries and go towards rank voting. That gives you a lot of other seats because when I was D-Triple-C chair now a little over 20 years ago, around 20 years ago,

we had like 40 plus seats. You're down to less than 20 from a competitive standpoint. We have to change this map and stop playing on their field and make them play on our field. That's what I would to just here's a shorter answer i i think that if they do all those states that they probably have they'll pick they'll they'll make gains and democrats are going to have to win more seats than certainly the three that it looked like they'd have to win at the beginning of this process and i'm not sure the one thing i'm not sure about you guys is just how whether the republican gerrymanders will net all the seats that they think and i think i talked about this last week when we had Brownstein on, like, these Hispanic voters in South Texas are very sensitive

to the economic issues. That's a lot of what led them. There were some cultural things, but that and the border, and so there, but the border was the issue. And now Hispanics generally are being targeted by, you know, so I think that it's not going to be the slam dunk that they thought it was going to be. So for whatever it's worth, Dave Wasserman, did a Q&A with Puck where he says he thinks that if California succeeds, if Newsom succeeds, Republicans

probably net five or six. And if California fails, Republicans at 10 or 12. And he still thinks that it's possible Democrats win the House because of the overall national trends. But that's the kind of range that Dave Wasserman's laying out. Yes, yeah. Well, I agree with him. If you look at midterms when one party controlled both ends

Pennsylvania Avenue, you have to have an energized opposition. That is existing. We can see it in all the specials and in the primaries. You have to have independence break two to one for the opposition. You're seeing that happening in the specials. And you have to have a depressed turnout among Republicans. And you

can see in the polling, Republicans are not engaged like the level of Democrats. So this has the makings, 18 months out, of a wave election. And I believe in a wave election, even if they're trying to rig the jury, it will overwhelm the wall that

they're building up. It will not handle the wave that's about, the tsunami that's about to come. and it has a potential to be a tsunami. Before we go to the mailbag, John, you had one thing you wanted to talk about with Rom. I do. I don't want Rob to leave without getting a chance to talk about Donald Trump's, well, the state of Donald Trump's apparent physical decline. And if you say it's that this is a partisan comment,

I'm not being partisan at all. It's like we've noticed the hands, we've noticed the feet. And so with Alex Jones. Alex Jones, not a liberal last time I checked. Here's Alex Jones had to say about Trump's impending health collapse. I've seen a lot of signs of Trump declining the fear that he's getting sick, that who knows what's going on. His ankles are giant.

That usually means serious heart decline. I mean, liver failure too, but his eyes aren't yellow. So he's saying, I don't know if I'm doing a good job. I don't know if I'm going to get into heaven. I hear I'm not doing a good job. This is the President of the United States calling into Fox News in the morning. morning saying this. The inner monologue tells a lot.

Dr. Jones, who weighs in. I would not say that he's covered, that Alex has, he has a medical capacity beyond the Obama Exchange, that said or be my cardiologist. Yeah. But the fact, the most revealing thing isn't the hands or the ankles and they can't tie the shoes, that comment about, I, I'm, you know, I want to go to heaven and I'm, I don't think I'm a good standing to get there. If I were Donald Trump, not that he's going to listen to my political advice, I'd be worried about

Dante's an inferno at this point. I think it's a very revealing point, kind of introspective, and he's not known for being introspective, where his mind is about his own mortality and his place. It's also part of his desire for the Nobel Peace Prize, et cetera, but this thing that I want to go to heaven, I think really was the one time you've seen a mirror as, I would say self-awareness, but a reflection into his psyche. and his mindset, and it's not healthy, both physically and psychologically. Alex Jones raised it. You raised it. And I don't want it in any way for people to say,

oh, this is what they're, they're fomenting these. But you look at the guy who just doesn't look well. And he's, and he's, you know, people think he's somehow immune to the same laws of nature that govern Joe Biden. He's a, he's an almost 80-year-old. guy, and this is the hardest job on the planet. And, you know, the way he does it, you know, work by day post on truth social all night. You can, the, the pressures of it are, and no one who has never worked there can't fully appreciate what it is. So, Ram, you know, yeah, I mean, I think it's a non-trivial question. I used to refer to, we all seen presence from the first photo to the last photo to walk out. It ages you. Every year in the White

House is a dog year. It's like seven years. He's an old man to start with who doesn't take care of himself. And you're seeing the physical manifestations of that age and wear and tear. I think we've now seen the psychological manifestation of that physical state of being. I genuinely hated when we hear I know we all hear this. Occasionally, over the last 10 years, you've heard liberals say, God, I hope Trump dies. And I hate it when I hear people say that. I hate it.

I hate it. But it is the case that if you live a life where you don't exercise, you don't eat green vegetables, and you eat Burger King and Big Macs for 70 years, it's going to take a toll at some point. And I think it might be... I think he's past the Mediterranean diet. Yes.

It doesn't get any impact, okay? I must say, I do envy the ability to eat Big Macs every day. I gave them up decades ago. And you're a better man for it, David. Well, I'm a lesser man for it. Yes, I'm a lesser man for it. Before you go, Rom, we want to give you a question from the mailbag. It's listener mailbag.

So if you have questions for the hacks, you could send them to Hacks on Tap at gmail.com, or you can, and we prefer this, call them in yourself so we can hear your voices at this number. 773-389-4-4-7-1. I'll repeat it because who can remember that. 773-389-4471. Hey, David, I think it looks like Rom has to run, so he's going to have to skip the mailback. You offended him.

He's running. I can't believe it. What a mess. But see you, Rob. Okay, guys. See ya. See you later, Ram. Bye-bye, man.

So, David, we got two voicemails. You know, I like the voicemails. I mean, we take the incoming however it comes. And if you don't want to call, that's fine. But you're going to have a better chance of getting into the show if you call so we can hear your voice. And we have perfectly, given that there's two of us, Rahm having decamped, we have two voicemails this week. Let's play the first one for you from our friend, Ryan. Hi, guys.

My name is Ryan from St. Louis. I've heard a theory for a while that Democrats put too much thought into the electorate having common sense and not fighting back on the crazy stuff. early enough I was wondering about your thoughts on that thank you bye yeah Ryan this is this is akin to the discussion we were just having

first of all thanks for calling in and thanks for listening and hey to everybody in St. Louis I think that I think what Democrats need to do is stay close to people and as Rahma was saying

yes I think there's all kinds of what you call crazy, I call dangerous stuff going on, and you have to fight those fights. But ultimately, you know, people also are living their lives and they're struggling with higher costs and they're struggling with a slowing economy and job situation. And fundamentally, they need to know someone's fighting on their side in the midst of all of this. And so I would not, you know, I still think that needs to be a major focus of what Democrats are doing, even as they push back on these sort of autocratic incursions of Trump, because we've got to, we've got to, you know, you want to save American democracy, but you also want to save the American family that is suffering in this. economy and give them a sense of confidence that you have a vision to make this country work better

for them. So I think you have to do two things at once. I couldn't agree more, David. The only the challenge is, you know, crazy, you know, Trump says, I think one of the things that our friend could be, that Ryan could be thinking about here is, you know, things like Trump, you know, talking about the crazy stuff includes things like, you know, changing the Gulf of Mexico to the Gulf of America. And, you know, Trump does throw a lot of chum in the water. I don't I think, you know, you don't want to chase every bit of chum. The key element is Democrats having to make some better distinctions between what is crazy stuff that no one really cares about and stuff that's crazy that actually in a weird way kind of somehow gets in under the skin and ends up mattering more than you think. I'll tell you, the stuff that should be chased is the stuff that actually raises people's costs and makes it harder and not easier for people and creates more turmoil and more.

peril for people, be it, you know, waging a war on vaccines that we know work to, you know, the tariffs. And so, you know, I think you're right, John, you got to center the stuff. Someone said the main thing should be the main thing. That's such a friend, Haley Barber. The main thing is to keep the main thing, the main thing. Now, Aaron has a voicemail question. That's Aaron with an A, too, with a double A. Aaron. A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A. Hey, Aaron. This is Aaron from Bellingham, Washington.

And my question today is, if the Republicans could be overplaying their hand, and with redistricting, cut their margins, and in a way of election, couldn't they end up losing a lot of seats that they'd have otherwise kept safe? Aaron raises a good point. It's so good that we actually started to touch on it. David, you did earlier in the show today. And I think, you know, that it is, you know, if I go back to Dave Wasserman, who says, you know, it's, it's not that often. The wizard of, the guy who's, whose Twitter handle is at redistrict. So, yes, he knows something about this. And he was, he said, you know, it's not that often that these, that parties get the maps wrong, you know, and that, and that suddenly they, they miscalculate or whatever. But it is the case that they can misread some of the macro political trends.

And one of the key one that you just mentioned earlier in the show, I think is super important. And there are Texas Republicans who are really worried about this, is that they've redrawn these maps in Texas very much in accord with Trump's performance in the 2024 election. And he overperformed so dramatically with Latinos in Texas that the combination of the fact that in midterms, the party tends to underperform their presidential candidate in the previous, the two years. years earlier. And the fact that the bottom is not quite cratering, but there is significant erosion happening in the Hispanic community with Trump because of the harshness and the capriciousness of the deportation agenda. Trump totally had their support on the border, doesn't so much out of their support on the Home Depot issue, that you could see this thing coming back. And if not hurting Republicans in Texas on net, they don't get all five of the seats they think

they're going to get. They may end up getting, you know, picking up those five seats, but then losing a couple, having turned a couple of other seats into competitive seats and ended up only netting one or two. So it could, there could be some kind of backbite there. Aaron's point, that is what we were discussing. I believe that. Aaron's point goes further, which is when you redistrict, when you gerrymander, you're taking, you're moving voters around. And in this case, you're taking Democratic voters out of Republican districts and putting them somewhere else. And so you're making some districts less Republican and other districts more Republican, and you hope that the margins all work out for you.

But if it is a way of election, there are some of those districts where you're moving Democratic voters that could become more problematical for you. So we shall see, I'm sure we're going to be talking a lot about this. over the course of the next year. I got to say, man, of all the things, this is such a small thing, but, you know, the idea that this now, this kind of tactical,

nonsensus-driven redistricting could become like a regular feature in our politics. I find it just, I mean, it seems like it's such a dorky thing to talk about compared to some of the things we're facing, David, but I do find it really depressing. The idea that this is just going to be a partisan tool

that both sides are going to use all the time. Well, listen, you know, here's what I believe. I agree with you that, You know, it is, it seems small in light of large things. But this is really about accountability. This is really about oversight. This is really about whether or not there'll be guardrails. You know, I've been plenty critical of my own party,

and I'm not a particularly partisan figure, despite what anybody thinks, but anybody who's followed me knows that. And so, you know, I don't wake up every morning thinking, man, I would just, you know, God, I wish Democrats controlled everything. But I do know that if the Congress continues down this road, that Trump after a midterm election feeling, you know, fortified. And I think that what we're going to look back at these two years as the good old days when it comes to outreach by a president. And we're going to be more down the road that we're on right now. So to me, it's more than a partisan issue.

It's really an issue about whether there'll be an accountable Congress, a Congress that will hold everyone accountable, including the president or not. We started out this podcast with you talking about some of my favorite things, you know, people in Chicago, the city, of big shoulders and windy city and all that. I'm drinking beer at 9 o'clock in the morning as I remember them from my college days. That was such a cheerful image. And now you're like, we might look back on these two years of the good old days. I'm like, Jesus Christ.

No, no. Bring me down, dude. I know. You're just so gleeful all the time. I just wanted to. I wanted to balance you up there. Just a small dose of reality into the situation. Okay, fine.

So there's one more question that we got there. all really excellent. And maybe some of them can be salvaged for future shows. Jen, who said, what's the best piece of political advice you've ever gotten? I would say, you know, given that Rahm's not here. You know, what's the best piece of political advice you've ever given, David? Well, I'd like to talk about the best advice I've ever gotten. And there were two pieces of advice. One was from Gary Hart, Senator Gary Hart. In 1987, we met in Chicago. He was planning to run for president, and we were talking about the American political landscape. And he paused at one point, and he said, just remember one thing, Washington's always the last to get the news.

And that is a piece of advice that has served me so well over the years. And it served me well when I worked in Washington because I realized that I was looking at the country through a periscope and that I was stuck in this echo chamber. And that often the conversation, in Washington was not the conversation people were having around their kitchen tables. And oftentimes when people make mistakes politically at the national level, it's because they're paying more attention to the echo chamber than they are to the voices of people. And that is still true today. The other is a more, a closer home piece of advice that I got from a Chicago alderman, an old Chicago alderman,

Dick Mel years ago and he was talking to me about a colleague who was thinking of running in the city council who was thinking of running for a higher office and I said

well what do you think and he said he'll never make it and I said why not he says because the higher a monkey climbs on a pole the more you can see his ass meaning that the higher the office you seek

the more scrutiny you get that is also true you know what it turns out it turns out if you look if you get if you see more of the monkey's ass what what becomes clear is that uh it's an MRI of the soul like that's the thing the monkey's ass is kind of like the way that you see into the soul yes it is that is that is a piece of it's a related piece it is it is it helped inform my view that uh presidential races are MRIs for the soul and whoever you are ultimately people get to know that, especially the better you do. So, best piece of political advice I've ever gotten was an advice given to me by my late great mother, who when I went off to college gave me

advice that has served me well throughout afterwards, which she was like, I really don't care what you do, but don't get arrested and don't get dead. That was like, that's kept me afloat ever since. That's a good advice from Canada, too. Don't get arrested and don't get dead. Well, this don't get arrested thing may cause you to want to revise some of your comments on this podcast before we send it out. I don't know the way things are going. You could end up in Boltonland. I said the advice was good. I didn't say I followed it. I got arrested three times in college alone. What are you talking about? I'm sure that that's in a file somewhere and we may learn about it someday. So I'm going to try to keep following with that advice. We head to Labor

Day weekend, David. I hope you're like in the, you're like in Michigan, Chicago for Labor Day. Have fun. All right, brother, you too. And to everybody out there, and we'll see you on the other side. See ya.