On with Kara Swisher - Life After Trump: Astead Herndon on What’s Next for American Politics

Episode Date: April 27, 2026

Political journalist Astead Herndon is using his new Vox podcast America, Actually with Astead Herndon to ask what feels like an unfathomable question: What does our country look like after President Trump; and can we even talk about politics without putting him at the center?  As we head towards its first truly open presidential election since 2016, Kara and Astead talk about the ways politics has changed in the last decade, and what it takes to attract voters today. They discuss the growing disillusionment and splintering amongst Trump’s base and toss around predictions about who might in the GOP be in line to replace him. And they analyze the structural impediments that could blunt a Democratic wave in the midterms and beyond. Questions? Comments? Email us at [e-mail] or find us on YouTube, Instagram, TikTok, Threads, and Bluesky @onwithkaraswisher. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You don't break the Pope. You don't. Like, it's really, even among people who don't agree with him. Also, this Pope, you know, don't mess up the south side of Chicago. Like, pick different fights to Trump. Hi, everybody from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. This is on with Kara Swisher, and I'm Kara Swisher. My guest today is Ested Herndon, a political reporter and formerly the host of the run-up

podcasts at the New York Times. He made a name for himself with his on-the-ground reporting and ability to connect with voters. Astead is now a host and editorial director at Vox. He has a new video podcast called America Actually with Estad Herndon. The show asks, what does America look like after Trump? And can we even talk about politics without putting Trump at the center? I'm excited to talk to him because Estad's an amazing reporter at the heart of it. And he's been talking to actual voters rather than just being a pundit.

He also has incredible analytical skills and is able to sort of parse things out in an incredibly fair way, which I think is important right now. in these polarizing times. We have two expert questions this episode, one from Lulu Garcia-Navarro, host of the New York Times podcast, The Interview, and another from Ben Collins, CEO of the Onion.

Both sent in great questions, so stick around. Support for this show comes from Backmarket. You don't always need the newest tech, no matter what your social media algorithm says. Sometimes newer doesn't exactly mean better. Backmarket is the world's leading premium refurbished tech marketplace.

Backmarket offers a range of high-quality tech inspected and refurbished by professionals. It's all they do. They have phones, computers, gaming consoles, vacuum cleaners, and even iPods. Backmarket is also on a mission to reduce the environmental toll that Fast Tech has on our planet as refurbished tech is proven to use less raw materials, leave behind less waste, and create fewer carbon emissions than new, making their refurbished tech not only more affordable but more sustainable as well. Shop now at backmarket.com. More and more Americans are finding themselves taking care of their kids and their parents at the same time. Well, you know, I joke that there's a dark game, which I was playing, which family member will, like, disappoint today.

How to care for others without burning out in the process. That's this week on Explain It to Me. Find new episodes, Sundays, wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Sally Helm. Inflammation. It is something I've been seeing a lot of people talk about. especially on TikTok. And according to them, inflammation is basically the whole problem with our health.

It causes heart problems, anxiety, acne. It is maybe even the root of all diseases. So how accurate is that? That's this week on Unexplainable. Astead, thanks for coming on on. Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. I'd love to know why it was the thinking behind what you wanted to do

and where you're going, your new Vox podcast is called America Actually, with this dead hernded in. You said when you started developing it, your first thought was, I want to be Trump-free, so you're trying to figure out what American politics will look like without Trump as the driving force. I'd love to know why you decided to do it this way, leave the Times, obviously, and what you've found so far.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, for me, it was really about kind of embracing our new media space. I wanted to do and be somewhere where I could embrace all mediums, write, text, video. I wanted to do that based on the premise of, like, my own kind of journalistic lens and kind of free myself of time subscriber. And I also just think that, like, in this kind of moment of politics specifically, people trust individuals. They trust people who kind of can put themselves out there transparently, can put their process out there transparently. And so I kind of wanted to just do that in its clearest form and felt like,

Like Vox was the best opportunity to do that. And to the point about Trump-freedomess, you know, as we were thinking about what's going to define this show and kind of what do we want our lane to be, obviously my work has been around elections, national elections, midterms, and presidential. And this one is unique in that, you know, it's the first time since 2016 we've had these two open primaries or at least our building to open primaries. And it made me think, you know, we're on this journey of theoretical Trump replacement. But it seems kind of implausible right now.

I think he takes up so much of our ecosystem. It's hard to see past him. And so I thought that, you know, we can use these elections and we can use kind of this runway as an opportunity to start telling that story. Right. Because I think that will be the deeply defining stories. What parts of this do we take with us? What parts are we leaving behind? Like, what parts of this are defining to a changed country versus what was a crazed man?

Or is it leave behind a bull? Like, I'm making a new word here, but is it possible to leave behind? Because certain presidents and certain political figures have left either a stain or a lasting impression, right? Yeah, and I also think that his, the way he has exploited political systems, a lasting impact, the way that he has broken down norms or just increase some levels of shamelessness of unelected officials. I think it's a lasting impact. But I still think there are some things, whether on the Democratic side that's defined themselves around opposition to him, or on a Republican side that's kind of just deferred to him personally, that we just simply don't know. Because when you say Trump-free, when I read that, I was like, can we be? Is it possible?

Like, even dead, he'll be interesting, right? Yeah, yeah. So I don't really, I mean it more beyond him. I just mean non-Trump-centric more so. And I just think that takes the issues that we think about all the time and puts a different. lens on them. And so instead of asking simply like what the impact is from the top down or what kind of the last person in the room was to push him for decision making, we're looking for the impact of that. We're looking for how that's going to play out in terms of other elected

officials. And mostly we're looking to how people have largely been dissatisfied with the solutions that he's proposed. And so I think that's really come through in the second term universally. And so it makes our framing, in my opinion, a little easier. Yeah, it's interesting because one of the things I keep thinking about is, like, how do you move on? And there was a brief moment where you forgot about Trump after he lost when he was in, you know, ignomay, and he went down to Mar-a-Lago and the insurrection and everything else until Kevin McCarthy showed up, essentially. He was on his way to the trash heap. I think that's an underrated moment people forget about.

Like, in that post-2020 midterms, there was a big space of Republicans. I was at that Republican Winter Convention where they were. talking about kind of how he was an electoral drag on the party, how they had also assumed, like many others did, that his looming legal problems would be kind of the nail in his political coffin. Right. And so sometimes when Republicans act as if they've seen this and they've been on the train the whole time, I'm like, that's not true.

Like, I remember those moments when they were trying to create space for other people to come in. It's simply that the base rejected it. And we saw this, you know, when I was making the run up, my Times podcast, when those criminal indictments came, for a lot of that Republican electorate, it felt like a need to rally around the guy, and that completely changed the tenor of what was going to be a more open race. Right. And just the open convo of leaving him behind.

Yeah. And so, you know, it's not just that DeSantis was a personality flop or things like that. It is that there was a moment in time in which that kind of window for Republicans to see the ability to move past them collapsed. And so their self-interest started aligning with where they're being. based increasingly was post those indictments. And so I just think that some of those seeds we've seen in individual moments, but this election and the March to 2028 will bring them more clearly out. Right. Well, interestingly, it still has this, as you say, lasting impact,

according to a new Ipso's poll, which I am in apparently, and I'm quite purple. I have purple fans. Hey, that's great. I know. I was sort of surprised I'm like, hey, San Francisco lesbian here, but sure, why not? Online platforms and personalities, especially those in the right, have overtaken television and print outlets as regular news sources among people who voted in previous presidential election. That's very obvious. Talk about that because, you know, Trump to, when I had a lot of influencers, bro podcasters, I think they're sort of on the wane a little bit too. But are they the new political journalist? How do you look at, like, as you made your decisions? Because you literally went out and talked to people, which is called reporting. I know kids, it's this really cool

thing. You actually find out what people think. And then you come to a conclusion based on that. You can have your own insights and everything else. But talk a little bit about that. I mean, it definitely is a change in news ecosystem, and we've seen it as we've been on campaign trail. Would we ask people where they get their news or where they're getting information from first? You hear people increasingly who don't want that information at all. Like, I think that's the number one change. I feel like I picked up.

People kind of openly saying, well, I keep clear of that. I don't try to hear that. I try to insulate myself from that 100%. And then the second thing, I think, is leaning on. individual voices who people trust were increasingly, and I think in that Biden years especially, were more right-wing, were more of those broadcasters. I think we're starting to see that change a little bit as that ecosystem changes. But it was true that I think it did displace your kind of shared political reality of the Times A1 or the kind of shared political reality of cable news,

even if they're arguing about things elector doesn't care about. It mostly did keep a kind of guardrail of discourse on establishment that I don't think is necessarily there anymore. And so I think another thing that's hugely changed, too, is not just the news sources, but the fundraising mechanisms, too, from, you know, from small donors, you really have a specific activist class or people who are, like, most interested. And you can raise a lot of money by just speaking to those people, too. And so there's a lot of incentive for the influencer age of politics right now. Yeah, it's almost impossible to imagine a Trump presidency without the rise of

social media. He changed the Americans expect from their politicians. We even see Democrats copying aspects of the cell, Gavin Newsom, for example. Can a normie candidate win the presidency again or was successful candidates have to be that way, troll and meme their way to virality? Because I wrote a column a couple of years ago, 2018 when I was writing for the Times, and I said he's the world's greatest internet troll, and this is important. This is an important aspect. Which everyone was like, no, it's the political, you know, press class. I was like, hmm, he's bypassing. And so was, by the way, AOC, I compare, you know, these genuine, whether you like them or not is a different thing.

But they're certainly genuine voices. Mom Dani, certainly. You're watching it in real time. He's really quite good at it. People who can go directly to their audience and people who have kind of cut out that gatekeeper to create an sense of trust. And they deliver their own news to their audience. The biggest thing that Bob Dottie has is that kind of credit. as kind of direct-to-camera, direct-to-instagram audience,

organizing ability that he's cultivated over time. So I definitely think you're right that the new type of politician, I think, led by Trump, has played assignment editor for media by bad passing us, but also, I think, can talk to their voter more directly. To the point about Normie candidate, I still do think that it can be a sort of, quote-unquote, normal candidate, and maybe not an open troll and still win. But I do think you have to command attention or have the ability to command attention in this economy. And so in this decentralized landscape, I don't think you can simply rely on the press release or the X statement or whatever.

I think you have to have the ability to do the 30 second video, to do the three-hour sit-down, and to be able to have a message that cuts through on both fronts. Because sometimes I think that we only think about the delivery of message. But the biggest thing I think that helps Zoran or AOC is a consistency of message, too, that they can kind of bring. Constant. Yeah, that they can bring to every platform. And they're very comfortable in that. You know, I make the example of there was so much back and forth, obviously, about Harris going on Joe Rogan in 2024. And she did do, you know, big podcasts like Call Her Daddy and such.

But I was like, the content of what she brought to that platform was pretty much a stump speech. That's right. So if you're going to go to new mediums and behave in an old way, I don't think it does the same type of work to that new medium. And that's where the magic happens. Yeah, we had talked about it. And I was like, you don't understand. And I didn't mean it this way. I was like, everything is promiscuous now.

Like, I don't mean to be in a sexual way. It's like you have to be on all the time. All the time. You have to be very genuine. And people can sense that very quickly. Even if they don't like you, they like you. Like, because you're there and communicating the person you are. I wanted her to do a show called Recently Unemployed with Kamala Harris,

which I thought would have been very funny. And she goes around and talks to unemployed people. Yeah, honestly, that's a great idea. I mean, wear the sneakers, t-shirt, jeans. Like, that's the look everybody likes about you. And so, and that's what you're actually like that. Yeah, and I think that to your point, that gets you closer to the person, you know, we've seen her be, I think, particularly as folks who have got to see her privately or covered her,

rather than, I think, prosecutor mode, which either I think that sometimes, yeah, sometimes I think when the lights come on was the switch that flipped. And so I kind of empathize sometimes with politicians about, like, the risk of authenticity, the risk of being genuine in that many settings. I think particularly, like, in a gendered way, like, we have not supported women candidates coming to media and electorate as full self. So I get the trepidation there. I just also get that it's required in. this landscape. And I don't think you can get around that. Yeah, because there is a real clapback. That's the risk of that sort of genuineness or authenticity. The clip farming can make one moment into a larger definitional space. And I think that's, if you're playing from a place

of risk, particularly as a politician, that's been why they've been so distant from it. Right. The question is, does it really hurt? Because Trump just keeps barreling fucking through. But he's obviously radically reshaped American politics. And he's not just the communications. He tried to overturn the election in 2020. He's been an authoritarian bender since he was re-elected with mixed success, I think you'd have to say, but mostly Republicans have gone along with it. So how do we fix the irreconcilable differences between MAGA's authoritarian tendencies and those who believe in democracy and the rule of law? I do believe without the person there. There is not, J.D. Vance isn't likable, nor does he have the same power, charisma, whatever, however

you want to use it. So what happens in this post-trial? as you're starting to do this podcast. You know, one of the things I remember from my time in Trump land is how many of their voters would clarify how we're not a democracy, we're representative of democracy. We don't have a direct democracy.

They would use that as kind of an insulation from their fear that a more direct democracy as the country was changing was going to displace them in terms of power. And I think it's been a really motivating factor for Republicans, even as Donald Trump has made this authoritarian ban, is that a lot of them have come to hear that democracy term.

And Fox News is telling as a way for secretly voting illegals and George Soros-backed groups to steal elections. And so it allowed fertile ground for Trump's authoritarian push. It was fertile ground for an electorate that was primed to say, hey, this system as is, is actually moving away from us. And so that's the question I kind of start with when we think about after him is like, can there be a renewal of democracy or are we kind of changing our floor into this kind of inevitable slide? And I think one of the things that, you know, like obviously animates that question is I think it was a real mistake for Democrats in 2024 to pitch democracy as a thing that just Donald Trump broke and not a thing that needed fixing overall. Renewal. Yeah.

And there was an opportunity to say, hey, you know, let's make this better. And that's the way that we recommit to this. Because I think what I hear from DR Independent is an understanding of a broken Congress, right? A desire for things like term limits, particularly with stuff like the Supreme Court. Like, there is an understanding among people who are distant from politics right now that things aren't necessarily working or that system seems at least outdated from responding to people's concerns. And so I think that that is an opportunity for anybody, particularly as we move toward this next election, to say that's part of my vision of a post-Trump America, is to renew a commitment to some baseline principles that he's blown up.

I just think that for Washington, they have a little bit of their self-interest as at odds here, too. And so that's where these outsider candidates are kind of interesting to be in like, because that's ground that they can take up more clearly and they can say things. like, you know, removing money from this stuff or super PACs. And I think Washington gets uncomfortable with that. Yeah, but I don't think they're necessarily doing the old fighting Washington thing. It's a very different thing. It's, you know, usually it was like, I'm here because I'm not a creature of Washington.

I think they've moved past that some of these candidates. And they're all different stripes politically, which is interesting. And I think the ones that go, I'm here to fight Washington, I'm like, oh, that's really what I want. I want some new fresh ideas, right? Yeah. And so they sort of dismiss it, you know, like, well, yes, of course. we know how we feel about that. Like, they're past it in some way. Yeah, I think solutions are the key point. Correct. I think there is a diagnosis of problems that's kind of agreed right now,

partially because I think Trump era has laid them bare. And so I don't think you're going to win on just saying, hey, this is an issue. Like, I think that that was a something that even I think back to the 2020 Democratic primary. Like, it was a policy paper contest. And I think that'll be a little different now, too. But I do think the burden will be on a party that, even Democratic base, wants ideas. Once a feeling of fight, yeah. But I think that mostly is expressed in your level of political creativity. You know, how are you showing me that you're going to do this? How are you showing me that you're going to go beyond the rhetoric we've already done? Right. Well, Donnie did this really well when they were asking about resigning. He's like, I'm really not concerned about that. I'm going to

concerned with the potholes and I'm concerned with this. And of course, I'm thinking about that, which I think is sort of like a dismissive, like this thing, which is interesting because the other day I think I said on pivot, I'm like, you know, we can go on and on about the history of Donald Trump. There'll be a million like thumb-sucking essays about whether Donald Trump, what does he mean, what now, post, whatever. You're just waiting for all those, which I will, none of which I will read.

But what's interesting, as I said, it's actually an opportunity to say, He's broken a lot of things. Well, okay, what are we going to build now? We don't have to build it back, right? Like, what didn't work? Yeah. What did? And everyone's like, oh, how could you say that?

I'm like, because a lot of things were broken. Like, I think everyone has a sense of that. I mean, he's broken them. But what do we want now? It gives you an opportunity for renewal, which is, I think, which you're aiming at with this podcast. Yeah, I 100% think that's where a lot of folks are. And so our goal is to see the seeds of that.

Like, one of the groups who are going to define our postings, Trump future. We're thinking about the growing parts of the electorate, first generation Americans, people of faith, people who had necessarily been marginalized, or people, young people, people under 30, I think, are a big one for us in terms of who's going to drive some of that future. People's anxiety about changing work economy. And I think the place that tech plays in that is a huge thing for us. Like, we want to track some of that. You know, I'm in so many places that are talking about the inevitability of, you know, job displacement and things. And then you're in the electorate that feels kind of resentful that everyone's talking about

this from a certain place, you know? And I'm like, what's the impact of that gap? How does that gap manifest itself in our elections and things like that? And so taking the issues and then taking the buckets of people, I think help us find some of the seeds along the way. Because by the time we get to an open 27 primary, I think that's when they're going to be expressed. But the candidates will be vessels for those things.

And those things will already be, I feel like, defining animating factors among voters themselves. We'll be back in a minute. Support for this show comes from Quince. If your spring cleaning also involves cleaning out that closet, you're going to want to restock it with pieces that are well-made, versatile, and last throughout the years. That's exactly what Quince offers, elevated fabrics, thoughtful design, and pricing that actually makes sense. Quince makes beautiful everyday pieces using premium materials like 100% European linen, organic cotton, and super soft denim, with styles starting around $50.

Their spring pieces are lightweight, breathable, and effortless. The kind of things they say you can throw on instantly and look put together. Quince works directly with top factories cutting out the cost of the middleman, so you're not paying for a brand markup, just quality clothing. I have gotten quince. I love quince. Actually, I just got a cardigan for spring. I think I look great in it.

I also got a pair of jeans that are incredibly comfortable. Now I look kind of nice when I go out there for my spring jaunts that I do. And right now, they have a lot of great seasonal colors and prints for spring that'll make getting dressed a breeze. Refresh your spring wardrobe with quince. Go to quince.com slash Kara for free shipping and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada, too. Go to quince, Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash Kara, K-A-R-A for free shipping and 365-5. date returns. Quince.com slash Kara. Support for this show comes from Indeed. When the pressure is on

and you need to hire the right person for the job, Indeed sponsored jobs has got your back. Instead of forcing to spend tons of time searching, Indeed sponsored jobs matches you with the quality candidates fast. According to their data, sponsored jobs posted directly on Indeed are 95% more likely to report a hire than non-sponsored jobs. Join the 3.3 million employers worldwide that use Indeed to connect with quality talent that fits their needs. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Less stress, less time, more results.

When you need the right person to cut through the chaos, this is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs. And listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit to help get your job the premium status it deserves at Indeed.com slash podcast. Just go to Indeed.com slash podcast right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. That's Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply.

Hiring, do it the right way with Indeed. I'm a Sted Hearnden. And this is America, actually. We're all talking to each other to see. What did we do wrong? What did we not see? I'm in Washington, D.C. this week to interview Ruben Gallego. He's a Democratic senator from Arizona,

and he's been thinking openly about running for higher office. But he's recently run into some hot water. because of his connection to Congressman Eric Swalwell. I have to learn from this, and I will learn from this. But for me, it's not a 2028 question. It's about what it means to be a better first boss in my office and also a better senator to my constituents. This week on America, actually,

we asked Gallego about predatory behavior in Washington, his plans for immigration reform and more. So let's talk about where MAGA movement is and whether or not it's splintering. it is. It seems like it. It doesn't seem like just a TV show, rivalty show. He certainly could be that, and Trump's shows have done that. But he's attacked Tucker Carlson, Megan Kelly, Alex Jones, Gandesow, and all of them been critical of Trump over the war in Iran specifically.

Comedians Joe Rogan, Andrew Schultz, and Theo Vaughn, have been publicly reconsidering their support, although Joe Rogan, all it takes is to give him a psychedelic, and then he's back. What a thirsty fuck that guy is. Anyway, is that really happening? Talk a little bit about that. And explain for people. I mean, obviously, several of them are doing it for show. They make content out of everything. There's not one feeling that doesn't go unexpressed by any of them, essentially.

Yeah, I mean, I think for people who haven't lived in the turning points world, you know, like I followed Charlie Kirk on some of his tour and leading up to the 24 election. You know, I used to go to Turning Point events, a bunch in Trump one. If you haven't lived in those kind of podcasts the world, I don't think you can fully appreciate how much of a fundamental promise Donald Trump broke with the Iran war. Like, this is something that has motivated that group for a long time that they have talked about as the defining factor

of why Donald Trump was not traditional Republicans. And so even as he flagrantly broke every other promise, even as he tariffed his way to inflation, even as he does things that were clearly violation of campaign promises that they just accepted. They kind of held on to this piece as a reason of why he was still distinct. So now that has blown up,

I think that's why you're seeing some of this spill out. And it is, I think, an early indicator. We're starting to see some of this in numbers. In the recent NBC poll that was released this week, I was looking at Trump's strongest level of approval rating among Republicans is at its lowest level yet. Yes, that's still like 79, 80%,

but he's usually in the 90s, right? He's usually in a kind of universal agreement among Republicans. The other thing I would say here is this is where it matters that Donald Trump's coalition was built off of more than just traditional Republicans. Because the people who are the most likely to break from him from the Iran War debacle are people who came to him for that kind of non-traditional reason. And when you look at like the Tucker's and all that world, their audience is mostly

younger folks and people who would not define themselves as traditional Republican Party these days. Right. He's tormented. And so in those people, I think there has been a legitimate backlash against. And so. Combined with Epstein, presumably. Combined with Epstein, which I think was a big factor in that too.

And so I think that you get, you start to see some of those flavors. I was talking to, you know, we have this Trump MAGA radio host on. His name is John Fredericks. And he was admitting that, you know, if I could change, he was like, if I could change two things, it would be tariffs and Epstein. I'm like, those are big things, you know? Like those are, and I hearing walls. Sometimes because for the us of who have known Donald Trump to be a liar or be a manipulator or whatever the whole time, I think there can sometimes be a, oh, here they go again, just making content or they just say this and they make kids to make up.

And certainly that might happen. But I think this is a little different because of just how fundamental no forever wars and specifically no regime change war with Iran was to Donald Trump. was to Donald Trump's relationship to this world. Right. There's also anti-Semitism and a couple of them there. For sure, for sure. Israel, anti-Israel. And there's certainly much to criticize Israel,

especially Netanyahu about it. But they are like died in the wall. Absolutely. I mean, what Tucker Carlson's doing is beyond just some like, you know, principal critique of Netanyahu. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The other day, Marjorie Chely Grimmie, who's so reasonable these days for some reason, like on certain issues,

I'm like, ask her about trans. You know, she'll go right back to shape, right? Yeah, yeah. I was like, I'm sorry. But one of the things she did, she was talking about the war, and I do believe she's quite sincere, right? It's a sincere belief. The two things that are sincere to me are Epstein and America First,

no wars. Yeah, I mean, for that crowd, they believe those things from him. 100%. I think Epstein is, for folks, even more shocking, because we knew the facts about his relationship with that. But he had presented himself as, you know, the poor man's rich man. And so that was core to his relationship with that base. And I think even that like QAnani conspiratorial universe that has gotten wrapped into a lot of this,

they thought he was going to come back and open the floodgates for the Clinton crimes. And I think the reality of that has swallowed up a lot closer to home than they thought. Oh, yeah. When Epstein first happened, I was in those groups. And I think Scott was like, oh, I'm like, this is not going to blow it over. You don't know. You don't understand. This is core.

Now, a group of people that were maybe not core, but certainly convinced that Trump could help them, were Latino voters who helped propel him to victory. But a recent poll by a third way in Unitas, U.S., found that Trump's unfavorability number is now 66% with Latino voters. Talk about this coalition. Yeah, we've seen it in the special elections. We've seen it in places like New Jersey. It's been big shifts in kind of Latino voting communities. We just did an episode talking about immigration changes, and we were talking reporters.

of Arizona, who were talking about the 180 they've seen specific to Donald Trump's actions. I mean, I think when we talk about Latinos, you know, do you have to talk about from a first place a diverse group who doesn't always see themselves in a community? They don't always see themselves as a linked group. I'm like, you think I have anything in common with Richard Grinnell? I don't think so. At first then, you know, if you've ever been in some of these places and you're looking at them as if they are having the feeling of connectivity with someone across the border in El Paso,

or Florida or in other places. You know, like some of that's not always true, and we should acknowledge that. That's hard for us to understand. Yeah. But I think another core point here is Donald Trump did have a diagnosis of a couple problems, particularly border security. And I think sometimes people conflated with his mass deportations push, which is unpopular, right?

But like the less people coming across southern border is largely popular. And true among even some Democrats who, felt that that was something that was ignored under Biden. I think you also have to acknowledge, like, you know, particular to, you know, when we talk to kind of folks who are in Latino communities, don't know, a faith-based community, that, you know, the some of the pushes that was, some of the pushes that were seen about, like, Democratic liberalism. I'm thinking about abortion rights and about LGBT rights, had a backlash in certain areas, particularly a lot of faith-based areas that we saw on alongside border.

But I think the most important thing that's happened in the last two years is simply he just taking all of the accurate diagnosis and not focusing on solutions. And so it is not hard to follow who's to blame for rising prices right now. Right, exactly. Because he made it quite clear by the obnoxious tariff announcement nobody wanted and by a war to raise energy prices, nobody wanted. And so I'm like, everyone gets that. that's the number one driver of battle. There was also the brutality of the... There's the brutality of the immigration push, too, I think plays a big role.

I had a lot of people who are conservative who are like, well, I believe in strong borders, but not this way. Like, it was a lot of but not this. I believe China is fucking us, but not this. I would ask people, you know, they have mass deportations now signs at the RNC. Like, some of this was not a surprise, right? But I think people's assumption of who, right, always falls to, you know, the bad guy.

You know, they will follow through on their promise of targeting violent criminals or people who have been convicted of elisa crime. And that's not what we saw, right? That's how we saw L.A. But not my gardener, not my babysitter, not my... Exactly, exactly. Renee Good, like, you know, like...

A mom dropping her kid off, yeah. Exactly. All the things we saw was a disconnect. And I just think in general, like, they embrace a show we, you know, Stephen Miller wanted 3,000 arrests per day. Yeah. That was not about who was being targeted. No, it's just clean it up. Yeah, that was about a projection of a type of person.

They want to make feel uncomfortable. So I think those numbers are a reaction to a message they intentionally tried to send about who was welcome here and not. And I don't think that was the issue that they were sent there to do, even if, you know, I would say discriminatory language or that type of rhetoric has been there the whole time. Yeah, because then he's talking about you. Exactly. Now, another group that has been very tight with him, the Christians, obviously, but bickering with the Pope and posting a Jesus-like image of himself, Marjorie Taylor Green called it, more than blast me.

It's an anti-Christ spirit. Everyone's trying to do this doctor thing, but, like, it's hard to imagine evangelical voters pulling the lever for Democrats, notwithstanding the appeal of James Talarico, who I like to call baby. be Jesus. But talk about this evangelical support. Has it splintered? Is there an opening for someone like Telerico who's quite progressive, I would say, if you listen to him? I personally, I think that I think they'll stick with him. Yeah, I think that I've come to the kind of Pavlovian response with evangelicals that they stick with them. And partially that's because of my, in my own reporting, they have the bar that they've set for to break with Trump is so hot

because it's not about his personal actions. It's barely about his policies. And, you know, when I talked to Al Moller conservative theological seminary a couple years ago for the show, he was saying that he was willing to back people who had stormed the capital in that midterm, even though he found that to be an anti-democratic move because he was so scared of the rise of gay and trans people

on the other side. And so I'm like, if it's always that motivating factor, I think a lot of those folks always return back to conservative or Republican politics. I find the Catholic stuff really interesting, though. Like, I think that more than evangelicals in my question there, like, I find, I find Trump's fight with the Pope to be, like, indicative

of, like, his lack of his, you know, I think he chose better targets, or at least that he was a, he was a, big enough figure that the chart targets he chose feel kind of small. I think this Pope is a losing battle. I think that's why you feel C. Van's stepping away from it. And honestly, I think, you know, even the growth among Catholicism among American young people and things like that. Welcome to my world, my son. I'm like, those type of things to me have an interesting question of like, does evangelicalism, does that wave of Christian nationalism retains its kind of primacy

and Republican politics as we move forward. I think that's the question I have. Yeah, let me give it. My son, we were talking about Protestants and how the German princes wanted Martin Luther to do it because they wanted power over the Pope. There is a lot more political stuff happening at the time. So each Protestant denomination have to have different.

You can find a very conservative Protestant group of evangelicals, and you can find a very liberal one. And one of the points he was making, he said the reason I like going to church is that there's all different people of on all the, you have Opus Day and you have the Jesuits and you have this, all under one doctrine. Under one consistency, yeah.

And it is one doctrine. It is. And so, you know, that's what's attractive to him about it. And which was interesting, I hadn't thought about it. I was like, oh, you're right. It's, it's, there's not 10 different flavors of it. There's, there's different people in it, but they live within the Pope organization, essentially. I have heard people make this argument about the power of it be that kind of consistent.

in monoculture. You know, I come from a, you know, the most Protestant background ever, and my father's a Pentecostal pastor. And so, like, all of us, sometimes, like, Catholicism, I feel like, I went to a Catholic college, I went to Marquette. And so I was sometimes, like, learning the, like, kind of rituals and other things, like, later than other people. And I remember someone making this point to me, and I find it quite powerful. They're like, you can be in any part of the world and be any type of person. There's all these different disciplines, and they are all based in the kind of same construction. And, you know, that that kind of wavering of personality or theology that you could sometimes find among...

Disagreements, right, about women. Yeah, in a world of difference, that kind of sameness and pointing to something actually felt more powerful. So I can see why he made that argument. Well, it was interesting. He's like, I like that and I like disagreeing, but it's also one doctrine. And the pope is at the top of it. I'm like, don't... You don't break the pope. You don't. You don't. Like, it's really, even among people who don't agree with him. Also, this pope, you know, don't mess with the south side of Chicago, like pick different fights to Trump.

This pope is smart. Speaking of communication skills, this guy's got him in space. Yeah. So last thing about the Republicans, we'll talk about the Democrats. Speaking of the next GOP nominee, who do you see taking over the maga mantle? As you're starting this exploration, who is it? I mean, obviously it starts with J.D. Vance and others, but I definitely think that he is showing the difficulty of how to maintain the Trump coalition without Donald Trump, right? And so whether that is from a personality lens or I think from a principles lens, like, I think J.D. Vance has tried to give Magaism a set of principles and to pretend as if it's a kind of consistent thing. But then he finds himself on the wrong side of stuff like Aeron Moore or stuff like Epstein Vowse.

He's also lax. I said he has a charm of a cyber truck. But go ahead. Yeah, I mean, he's changed who he is so many times for the purposes of ambition. I feel like we have to also say, who will the version of J.D. Vance in 2020. even be. We don't even know that. He'll call himself they, them if he needs to. I'm like, the man has been 10 versions of himself for that break about. So is there someone emerging? Because one of the things I was thinking of is benches.

And I felt like the Democrats have a better bet. Like, there's a lot of people coming up younger. Like, I don't know who they are in the Republican Party because it's so on, Trump's on top, and then you have all these others. He also has in the, particularly in the midterms, he's been president and pretty much chosen the worst candidates,

possible for the purposes of building a bench. But I think Trump's lasting impact, honestly, is their primeness for an outsider, right? So I don't think when even Republicans think about bench, they're looking back to, you know, House members or someone on the rise in Congress. I think that, like, you know, even someone like, you know, I would put the RFK juniors, I will put Marco Rubio, of course, but I do think someone can make a argument for kind of principled version of Maga is. I don't know if that's a Marjorie Taylor Green. She's kind of been too anti-Trump in the last. Is there any figure you see that you're intrigued by as you look?

I guess not. The first thing I felt was about Republicans, like six, eight months ago, was that Vance was putting himself in a pickle. And I think that's everyone can see that now. But he has a lot of interpersonal clout in that world. And so more than the question of, like, will the public want someone to run against him? I wonder if someone with credibility in Republican circles runs against them

simply because they seem to like have liked the guy privately, you know, more than even publicly. And so I guess I don't have any other options yet or any folks who are catching mind yet because I think Republicans have been very deferential to him in terms of laying that path for him. That's not going to last. And so I think he's going to have first right of refusal.

And if that flop happens, then floodgates open. But I think it's a big chance that flop happens. Yeah, I think he, well, maybe if he has a baby, shows the baby off. I don't know. But I think he makes Mike Pence look exciting. So every episode, we get a question from an outside expert. We actually have two for you to answer. Here's the first.

From Lulu Garcia Navarro, host of the New York Times podcast, The Interview. Hi, Estad. Hi, hi, Kara. I'm here in Maine, which brought to mind a question. It seems like the upcoming midterm elections are going to tell us something about where their respective parties are at. And it seems like a lot of the fights are about what a post-Trump world is going to look like. So I'd love to get your view on where you think those fault lines are. And if there's going to be a place in the Republican Party for people like Susan Collins, who will be running again in Maine,

as senator, and where you think someone like a Graham Platner, who is seeking the nomination for the Democrats to run against Susan Collins, where he fits in and all that. And, you know, where the bases are at respectively, it seems like there's just like a lot of insurgent energy. See you soon. I, one, I think she's totally right. Like, there is insurgent energy, and Graham Platner's writing that.

A lot of those scandals that, you know, came out, a lot of folks thought would be kind of fatal for him. And every poll has a bigger and bigger margin from Janet Mills. Because he explained it. He explained it. He was clear about it. But I think also there is a growing acceptance that real people or real candidates have passed, that they have lived on the internet like the rest of us and they have said and done stuff on the internet that they may have regretted. And if I think, you know, folks feel that kind of authentic explanation from you, they're willing to hear it. I think the Susan Collins example is an important one, because Republicans have kind of given her a little bit of space to just run her own race, right?

Like, she's had her tiffs with Donald Trump. He's, you know, necessarily talked about it. But they'll find a way to obviously financially and kind of rally around. What I think is just shows, though, is that the excitement, the energy, the new ideas are coming from the Democratic side right now. You're not seeing kind of Republican midterm candidates who have really gotten their bases on fire. They're still kind of living in the Donald Trump personality shadow. And so people like Grant Platner are bigger, I think, than the individual brand of their party. And I think that's a change right now because of how invested the Democratic basis. I think a big shift that's happening is that the most interested parts of the Democratic base, the most one who are most politically new savvy have become so much more activisty, so much more invested.

They want a fight. 100%. And that kind of no-kingsish shift. I'm like, it hasn't been necessarily, has maybe it's become a little more progressive, but it's certainly become more activist. It's certainly become more less passive for, I think, the traditional democratic playbook.

And so I think those shifts are some of what we're seeing in Maine and I think what we're seeing across the country. Great. And here's the second expert question from Ben Collins, the CEO of The Onion. Kara, Osset, hello. Great to see you from the wonderful city of Chicago. This is Ben Collins,

the owner of the onion and also operator of InfoWars, so there's a war on for your mind, you know? Anyways, first time, long time. I just wanted to ask you a quick question. Don't give me a bullshit answer, like Amy Klobuchar or something. Who is your real secret dark horse for 2008? Like, mine is like George Clooney. I think you can do much better than that.

but I want like a name do not like if you say Alyssa Slotkin Tara just turn the podcast off like end the podcast I want to hear like a real left field day and you legitimately think could win both the nomination and the presidency in 2028 so thank you I love the question the only unfair part here is he stole the good answer with George Clooney I'm definitely team

outsider as underrated I'm definitely think that there There is appetite for someone who represents a clean break. I think things like experience have actually decreased in importance around the electorate and creativity and ideas like we talked about matter more. So I think that name ID plus legitimacy on like some liberal credentials. So he took Clooney, I'll take McConaughey or maybe like a brown version of coming. People are kind of down on the rock these days. I'll just plus one his cluny.

I think that's a good call, and I think that's the exact type of lane I'm talking about. We'll be back in a minute. Amazon presents Jeff versus Taco Truck Salsa, whether it's Verde, Roja, or the orange one. For Jeff, trying any salsa is like playing Russian roulette

with a flamethrower. Luckily, Jeff's saved with Amazon and stocked up on antacids, ginger tea, and milk. Habiniero? More like habanier, yes. Save the everyday with Amazon. This week on Net Worth and Chill, I'm breaking down the institution everyone's talking about right now,

but nobody actually understands the Federal Reserve. With all the drama happening between Trump and Fed Chair Jerome Powell, you're probably seeing headlines and wondering what any of this has to do with your money. Spoiler alert, it's everything. I'll explain with the Trump. the Fed actually is, why it exists, and how this one institution controls the interest rates on your mortgage, credit cards, student loans, and more. We're diving into why raising or cutting

rates isn't just boring policy talk. It's the difference between affording a house or watching prices spiral out of control. Plus, I'm breaking down the current controversy over firing Fed board members and why both Republicans and Democrats are freaking out about it because this fight isn't just political theater. It could mean real chaos for your wallet. Listen wherever you get your podcasts or watch on YouTube.com slash your rich BFF. All right, let's get to the Democrats, according to a poll by civics. White non-college graduates currently have 70% unfavoral opinion of the Democratic Party. That's actually good.

It seems like being anti-Trump isn't enough for the Democrats, even when Trump is unpopular, as they said, it's never-ending internal debate over whether the party should moderate its social positions order to broaden his appeal, double down on progressive economic policies. Talk a little bit about this. Would either one work with working-class white voters? Bernie is still enormously popular, and it seems like AOC is headed that direction, too, but maybe she's a lady, so they can't stomach that. I remember being in Iowa in 2019 and meeting this guy who was so torn between Bernie and

Mike Bloomberg. And I remember thinking, like, what, yeah, what's the consistency here? You know, like, and you talk to people for long enough time, and the consistency's not in that ideological spectrum, right? He's not pro-billionaire one day and anti-billionaire the next day. He basically liked a guy with strongish beliefs who he felt he knew what they cared about, no matter if what they cared about seemed to be at odds with one another. And I say that to say when we talk about this kind of ideological fight, I think the Democrats' biggest problem is clarity of beliefs, no matter what those beliefs are. So I think you can

own a kind of moderate lane in a Mikey Sheraway and show that, you know, I'm going to cry a national emergency to lower your electricity prices, and that makes a lot of sense. But I think you can also have clarity in the Zoron way, and that makes a lot of sense in that place. It's a similar message. What I think you can't do is waffle on naming the villains of an affordability crisis or inflation of things like that. And I think there are issues that have such root among electorate.

they become litmus test for authenticity on, will you speak truthfully about villains? You know, I think Epstein's part of that. I think APEC money is part of that now. I think there's ways that you have to show yourself as being trustworthy to follow through on said ideas around electability. But more than anything, I think that the conversation about where to fall on this ideological spectrum inherently leads them in bad directions because if you're putting your finger to the wind and saying that's where you're starting from.

And how do I calibrate that correctly to where people are? That's the wrong process. So basically you're saying is we have to all agree. I'm like, no, you don't. Why do you have to agree? No. Because I think Mamdani's single-minded focus on affordability is working, but even though it's hard to imagine a Democratic socialist winning in another state.

Talk about the practical lessons here because obviously he's charismatic and he's just a really wonderful communicator in so many ways. I have yet to see him stumble in something. And, you know, it's easy to stumble. But talk about what that does because, as you said, Mickey Cheryl or Abby Spamberger or, you know, Tala Rico couldn't be more different from each other and from him, right?

Yeah, I mean, I think they're coming to things, though, with the desire for political creativity. I think they're not seeing the system as is. and I think you have to pitch from the premise of that sort of change. And what I would also say, though, is like it feels like Democratic base has recognized that the normal shell game of kind of electability is not something they're inherently deferential to. So I don't think you can just say, you know, as they're finding out in Maine, as they may find out in Michigan, that this person's supposed to win and this person went, and the elector just follows.

I feel like they've, you know, a lot of people feel like they have been told the right thing to do for two, long and that walked them into a Donald Trump, you know. And so that kind of, that kind of a thumb on scale, particularly from the DSECs of the world, is not what's working. Now, does that mean that there could be no moderate candidate that wins? Absolutely not. Like, I think that means you need to be someone who has your own version of a vision that isn't someone who is like, you know, so I, you know, I think about the Michigan Senator Alyssa Slotkin as someone, even, you know, she was having that back and forth with Asam Piker about whether to come Michigan or not. And I remember a response being like, you know, I don't want to go on the

stream because of how this person's talked about me for a long time. And I'm thinking like, that gets, that's like a clearer way to articulate what I think is someone who is, you know, trying to show themselves as fighter and all those things, wants to stay distant from far left, but does not want it to be because she can't handle those questions. Or she finds you like, but it's, you know, so I'm saying like, there's a way that I think you can show your values, show clarity in those values, and also not make, um, not make, the far left or the growing progressive lane inherently off-putting to you, right? Like, I think that next year will be an effort to build that coalition.

But it's going to be difficult because we see these litmus tests, you know, popping up already. Yes, you do. And I think you see an electorate that is sick of litmus test. It's sick of it. It's so interesting, you know. It's like, doesn't fall on that same litmus test parameter as kind of political elites do. So they're imposing these tests that I don't think. is where voters are, you know?

No, purity tests on both sides, and by the way, Republicans are abusing them more at this point. For sure. You know, some on the left in progressive areas can be really irritating, so can some of the centrist people be really irritating. But the purity test thing is really shapes people of asses, as far as I can't I have different opinions? Now, that said, Virginia voters just paid way for a Democratic-leaning new map

to help counter Republican gerrymanders in states like Texas and Ohio, and AOC had the right point. We're playing their game. If they want to play this, she was excellent messaging that, I have to say. But according to population trends, the 2030 census will lead to Democratic states losing six to 12 House seats.

Republican states gain the seats in corresponding electoral college votes and Supreme Court is poised to overturned Section 2 of the Voting Rights Act and potentially at least another 19 seats to Republicans. Talk about looking past the midterms, how you assess the medium and long-term prospects for Democrats. Yeah, I mean, you're right,

that it was an impressive kind of short-term push for things like Virginia to happen. I think they fought Democrats to Sibbi-neutral or even close to leading for what comes to this year's midterms. But the long-term populationships, the trends towards Republican areas will be bad for Democrats in the electoral college. You know, the Senate kind of proportion gap will be harder and harder for them to find their way to things like 60 votes. And I think, you know, even we think about the court packing that Donald Trump has engaged in,

that obviously is difficult to wind back with lifetime appointments. And so, obviously, the kind of structures of government have given Republicans, I think, a clear advantage in the sort of long-term power sustainability. But Democrats have known some of these challenges. There was the reason why the John Lewis Act was supposed to be a top priority for the Biden administration in terms of, like, trying to have a national bulwark against gerrymandering and trying to make Congress at least more equitable. They weren't able to pass those things. I think if you're a Democrat, what I do think is more true now, though, is a willingness to use power and a willingness to pull the levers in ways that I think traditionally, I think it took them a long time of seeing Donald Trump do that to embrace that themselves. And so I think if there is a Democratic president in 2028, there will be a much more concerted push for a more muscular activity. Yeah, for a more muscular rethink of some of these structures.

for a project, 2028-ish, you know, 2029 sort of thing where they're thinking about how they even use things like the federal workforce or how they restore those types. And so that type of kind of 360 rethink, I think, allows there to be more solutions on the real structural things you're identifying. But without that, that is where Republicans know they have permanent root. They're not as worried about their waning, electoral advantages because one, you know, they eight years ago thought they couldn't win any

working class people of color votes. They now learned that that's not something that's like inherently off-putting to them. And then the second thing I think they know is they know that there are some of these structures that baked in their power. And so I think if you're a Democrat, that has to be amongst the priorities, but that there is some more willingness for the party to at least exercise its power. You're seeing the governors do. You're seeing the governors do. it. The governors, the Democratic governors are impressive. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a big push, too. Pritzker's one of those, Newsom, obviously. All of them. In different ways. There's very few of them that aren't quite good at what they're doing. And you could see their popularity, too.

And I think that's so what we're talking about in terms of like. Yeah, you're in Michigan, and we love Gretch, even Republic. Not maybe as much, but still. That type of willingness to do what you came there to do and show that proof point, I think is the lasting impact of the post-2020. for era for Democrats. So wrapping up, we only have just a few more minutes. You know, there's lots of issues. The war in Iran, obviously, with two-thirds of Americans disapproving how he's handling it. Obviously, the Epstein thing still sticks over everything.

He's there in the room every moment of the time. That will eventually wane, probably. But, you know, the war for sure is one of these moments. Gas prices, affordability. There's so many things. And, of course, Trump says gas prices will drop as soon as the war ends. But he's not telling the truth. But how do you look at what the most important issues are moving into the midterms as you're looking?

Because the midterms is about post-Trump. It really is. It's about what now? What do you think the key things are? Like the first, the easiest thing for the midterms is the popularity of the president, and I would say what kind of gas prices are, you know, and I think in the trade direction that we're in, in the tariff to inflation direction that we're in, that's all bad signs. I think the second thing you think about with the midterms is like the candidate quality in those individual races.

And Democrats have basically gotten the candidates they mostly want. That also helps them in these sort of things. And so I think that when we're looking at the seeds here, all the signs do add up to something that would be a better night or at least the conditions are right for Democrats to do what they hope to do in the midterms. I guess to me, we still go back to that structure question. because it can be a blue wave or a blue trickle or whatever. But the way that we have drawn these maps means that if that doesn't happen in a concerted area for like of, you know, if that doesn't happen in these three Arizona House districts, you might still be thinking about only a one or two seat majority. And so that's the hard part about these midterms is that the pure expression of people's displeasure does not inherently mean some national wave reflected in Congress.

Right. That's a very good point. And so I think people should temper some of the expectations with that. But to answer the core question, are the conditions there? And what are the first things we should look at? We should look at this president's massive unpopularity and particularly the pain he's driving to people's pockets. That will be the most important factors. Yeah. So let's last very quick question on a hopeful note. America actually has a partnership with a report for America, an organization that puts emerging journalists in local newsrooms nationwide. I'd love you just to end on what are some unreported positive stories you're getting from these young boots on the ground reporters.

Yeah, we just talked to one in Arizona who was telling us about the, like, mass organization among young people who have done a lot of the grassroots pushing back against Trump's deportation policies. We're collecting stories in them about the World Cup and about like the ways that, you know, is kind of logistically changing there, some of their communities, but also bringing a sense of like optimism and a sense of representation to parts. of their states that they, like, you know, that felt unseen. And so I really like them as like a touchstone to the ground. I really like them as a way that we get a sense of original reporting outside the bubble. But I'm excited to get even more things from them. But, you know, we expect them to be a gas stations this summer and talking to people at, you know, the pumps.

What they're talking. And what they're feeling too. And so their ability to feed that back to us, I think will really help us out. Have been grocery store. I, I, who don't look at prices, I don't, I just never do. I never have. I'm like, what? Yeah.

I've never done that in my life. Yeah, no, it's wild out here. I feel like when I was outside, when I was doing a lot of that reporting, Walmart parking lots, my favorite. And so we'll have them there, too. Yeah, yeah, which would be great. Like, a lot of places, because I think there's, I think voters are much more. I always trust voters to be more articulate, even though, you know, you can make fun of MAGA people or whoever doesn't know stuff. That's easy pictures.

Yeah, but when it comes to prices, when it comes to how that feeling and the clarity of how much that matters more than other things. I love hearing that first time. Right. Instead, thank you for your time. You can find America actually on YouTube and wherever you get your podcast. I'm thrilled you're here. I appreciate it.

Thank you so much for having me, Kara. Out of last. One more thing before we go. Want career advice from Kara Swisher? Now's your chance. We're doing a special episode about all of it and I want your questions. Send a video to On at Voxmedia.com. and you might be featured. Can't wait to see what you've got.

Today's show was produced by Christian Castro-Roussel, Michelle Alloy, Catherine Millsop, Megan Bernie, and Kalyn Lynch. Nishat Kirwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Special thanks to Sam Lee, Catherine Barner, and Julia Sharp Levine. Our engineers are Fernando Aruda and Rick Kwan, and our theme music is by Tracademics. If you're already following this show, may James Telerico, also known as Baby Jesus, bless you. If not, you've got the Antichrist Spirit. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On With Kara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On With Caraswisher from Podium Media, New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us.

We'll be back on Thursday with more.