On with Kara Swisher - Love, Life & Other Advice from Kara and Nayeema

Episode Date: December 29, 2022

For our final episode of 2022, Kara and Nayeema unabashedly dish out advice and answer questions you sent in (and some you didn’t). They tackle dating woes, difficult family dynamics, salary negotiations, choosing between career and travel and even give … fashion tips? In addition to listener questions, we hear from past guests and friends, including Kathy Griffin, John King, Rick Wilson, Mike Birbiglia and Walt Mossberg. Stay tuned till the end to hear Kara’s ultimate escape plan — which involves an island and a donut shop. You can find Kara and Nayeema on Twitter @karaswisher and @nayeema. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Ready, set, grow. Go to ConstantContact.ca and start your free trial today. Go to ConstantContact.ca for your free trial. ConstantContact.ca Do you feel like your leads never lead anywhere? And you're making content that no one sees? And it takes forever to build a campaign? Well, that's why we built HubSpot.

It's an AI-powered customer platform that builds campaigns for you, tells you which leads are worth knowing, and makes writing blogs, creating videos, and posting on social a breeze. So now, it's easier than ever to be a marketer. Get started at HubSpot.com slash marketers. Hi, everyone. From New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network, this is Dr. Phil with 100% better advice. Just kidding.

This is On with Kara Swisher, and I'm Kara Swisher. And I'm Naima Raza. Yeah, we would give 1,000% better advice than Dr. Phil. Anyone would. He's kind of an idiot. My number one piece of advice is don't go on the show, Dr. Phil. Yeah, Oprah has wrought a lot of things that I'm not happy about, but that's okay. On the whole, she's been a positive for the society, but Dr. Phil and Dr. Oz, it's really... Vision boards. She brought vision boards.

I like that. I like that. She and I got into a little set-two about that because I didn't know what it was once. I met her twice in my life, and one time we argued about vision boards. Blakely's asking what's on your vision board. Nothing. I think they're ridiculous, but whatever it takes people to get to do things, that's great. Okay. Well, it's the holidays. Are you taking any holidays?

I got yelled at by your son the other day because you're not taking any holidays. I know. They all yelled at me last night. Why? Because they never take any time off. And yet here you are working. We're going next week on a vacation. I promise not to do any work from there.

None. Okay. Yeah, I can do a week. I don't like vacation. I'm not a vacation lady. You and Jerry Seinfeld, I went to his show the other day and he was talking about how he doesn't like vacation. He's like, vacation is just when you pay to fight in a hotel. Anyway, I like them. Okay. I just, I like being in a nice place working. I just, I'm not a vacationer. I'm just not. That's the way it is. But my kids are correct.

My kids are right. It's a very bad thing that I do. Anyhow, I don't give a fuck. That's my advice is don't follow my behavior. Okay. Anyway. Okay. Well, that's great.

Right before we launch into an entire episode of Advice Care, you really know how to sell it. Yes. Okay. We're going to dive right into our gift to the people, which is our advice. It might sound like black coal in your stocking, but hey, it's signed by us. So listeners have sent in questions on everything from career to dating to family to whether you should buy a house, which I am perfectly unqualified to answer. I am very qualified for that. I've owned many homes in my life and I live very well. And I think I've done very well with the career and the kids and the houses. And so you don't have to listen to me at all, but I think I give

pretty good advice. Yeah, you give the unsolicited advice. I get a lot of unsolicited advice from you. Thanks, Kara. I didn't ask. No, most people call and ask me. People are very respectful of my stellar career. Look at me swimming in advice. All right. So our first question is about dating advice. The question was sent by Alana from Texas, and she's responding to something you said when we were discussing the terrible right-wing dating platform. What was it called? Right Stuff. Right Stuff. Peter Thiel had backed it.

Let's hear her question. I wanted to chime in on the Right Stuff dating conversation. I agree that dating people who disagree with you can be a great way to learn about the world, step out of your echo chamber, share new points of view. But as someone who finds myself in this type of opposing relationship a lot, intimate work otherwise, I just seek your advice on when to choose to draw a line and when to remove yourself from the relationship and realign with your own morals and principles. I've never used a dating service, so I think I feel like you need to take this one. Yes, I shall. I think if someone is so opposed to you that you find that they are against your

morals and principles, probably it would be hard to be in a respectful long-term relationship with them early on. So I would say probably it's like career advice. You know, you hire slowly and fire fast. But I think that you're looking in anything when you're collaborating with someone in a professional relationship, whether you're thinking that you might build a family with someone. If someone is really opposed to your core morals and values, that's probably not going to be an effective partnership. One of the problems I have with dating apps is that you think that you can meet somebody sitting on your couch on a Friday night swiping and that you know what you want. So you have all these parameters like they should be this tall and they should believe in this and they should have this level of education and they should live within this many miles radius of me. And I think that that puts blinders on you, actually.

actually, you don't allow yourself to be surprised and to confront someone who might disagree with you on one thing, but might be right for you on everything else. I think you have to get along with someone most and most. You have to be aligned on a lot of things. Because if you spend a lot of time arguing, I mean, I know it's cute in the movies when they have like a Republican and Democratic, you know, operative fall in love, but you have to sort of be aligned. And when it shifts, like I went out some many years ago, many, many years ago, and she started to get into marathon running and all kinds of things that I just was not interested in. It was weird. And she cut her hair.

And it was sort of like, wow, you've changed a lot. And it wasn't just political. It was just point of view of changing. Oh, yeah. It's like when people start talking to me, guys start talking to me about their home renovations. I'm like, you got the wrong lady. Well, I'll meet them. Anyway, let's move on. All right, Kara. Our next question was sent via Twitter from Life of Brian Dean. I'll read it. What advice would you give broadly on having, quote, the conversation with a partner who is

skeptical about kids? As asking for a friend, of course. Oh, you know what? I broke up with someone over that. Someone who didn't want to have kids? Yeah, I can't, you can't convince, look, I think it's a perfectly good choice. You know, it wasn't my choice. And, you know, as I talked about my onesie, I just wanted to have kids forever. And so I really was in love with this person, but they really didn't want to have kids. Are there lesbians who don't want to have kids? There are. There are.

And I got it. I got it. I had so much respect for this person. And it just was so different. And that is a fundamental thing is the ability to have kids. And so I don't know what I had. You can't sit around and convince them because if they're not along with the ride and don't want to do it, it's really hard. I would talk to them about what it means to you.

Yeah. But you cannot convince someone who doesn't have kids to have kids. It's a really big mistake. What about people who are on the fence about having kids? Well, a lot of people are. I've had some friends who were like, I didn't want to have kids and now that I have them, I love them. Someone just said that to me. I think it was Mike Birbiglia who we just interviewed was actually in the new one.

He didn't want to have kids initially. Oh, yeah. And he talked about it in the play, too. That's different. But that's a big burden because I've had a guy say that to me, like, oh, I don't have kids, but I'd have kids with you. I'm like, that's a lot of pressure. Oh, yeah. Then you'll have to do all the work.

Yeah. I don't know. I think if it's just I don't know, it's different than I don't want to have kids. And you have to break up if someone doesn't want to have kids because it will be bad. And you will be giving up something that's important to you. I agree with that. I think that's good dating advice overall, which is that it's good to have awareness and a vision for what you want in your life. And to remember and to have the confidence to say, I can have that life.

Yes. And to figure out how to get yourself to that life. Because the last thing you want is to wake up resigned at 45 thinking, you know, where's the life I wanted? Yeah. Oh, speaking of kids, I can hear yours in the background. Wait, hold on. Hold on. Okay. Hold on. Go do that. We'll take a quick break. Fox Creative. This is advertiser content from Zelle.

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podcast. Just go to Indeed.com slash podcast right now and say you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need to hire? You need Indeed. All right. So moving on, now we have some questions on family advice, now that we've had the baby in that last question. Okay. Tom from Montreal has a parenting question inspired by an unlikely antihero. Let's play the clip. I have a question for you about Andrew Tate. I have three sons who are 19, 21, and 23, and they just eat up everything that Andrew Tate says, all this misogynistic stuff. They just eat up everything that Andrew Tate says, all this misogynistic stuff. Among other things, he says that women should clean up after their boyfriends when they come to their boyfriend's place.

It'd really be nice if you comment on Andrew Tate and his influence on the social lives of young men. I'd really like to hear your input. All right. Thanks so much. All right. So now, first of all, please tell people who Andrew Tate is for anyone who may not know. I will, but oddly enough, I just was watching Andrew Tate with my 20-year-old two nights ago. What? Yes. I'll tell you why. Okay. He's a former professional kickboxer and social media sensation banned from Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, YouTube earlier this year. Elon invited him back though, right? At some point to Twitter. He did, yes. So here's the thing. My sons watch him and they had a lively discussion about him.

They're very aware of him. They think sometimes he's funny, but they all think he's an idiot. And so I did watch with them. And it was about bottled water versus flat water. And it was funny. Was he misogynistic in talking about bottled versus tap water or no?

No, he was talking about rich versus poor and rich people have stronger water. It was funny. It was funny. There's no way I could see the appeal. And he has a delivery that he does. I try to look at a lot of these things, you know, okay, why is it appealing rather than being instantly offended by it? Although much of what he says is highly offensive. But what is the appeal and stuff?

And so he brings you in with some funny things like the bottled water take, and it's funny and kind of in your face, and he's got a really interesting delivery. And then he moves you to the nasty shit. Yeah, this is a form of, as you're describing this, I'm thinking of the YouTube algorithm. I'm just thinking about algorithms and how they can radicalize you. Of course they get you in through something funny.

And then they encourage you to believe it's cool to be misogynistic. Right, exactly. And so, but I have to tell you, both my sons were onto it. They're like, we think it's misogynistic and it's bullshit. But they saw what he was doing very clearly. One of the things that I was surprised, because I hadn't really watched a lot of him, honestly, was how appealing he is. I could see that.

But what's your advice to not make your sons assholes? Because I think that's what the question is. Less about Andrew Tate and advice for how to grow men who are not assholes. Media literacy. Let them watch it. And then talk about it. They need to see it. They need to see it and come to their own conclusion.

And then give them the background and history and stuff like that. But keeping it away from them is the biggest mistake. It just is because they'll seek it out, whatever it happens to be. And so I let them watch everything or most things and we talked about it. And then we had a great discussion about Andrew Tate two nights ago. Great discussion. And it was great. But I didn't need to teach them. They understood what he was doing. Okay. We have another family question. This question is about parenting and it's from Tracy in Seattle. Let's hear it. I am approaching 60 as you just turned 60. And I also had children at an older age. I had a child at 50. So I'm currently parenting a very boisterous 8-year-old. And my question is really about sometimes the existential dread I feel at the thought of dying and leaving a young child without his mother. I'm in good health, but I guess my question is, how do I get over myself and just enjoy parenting this wonderful child?

And then as he grows older, how do I prepare him for the fact that he will be spending most of his life without his parents than with his parents? So I guess kind of the conversations that you will begin to have with your youngest children and what you think about all of that, having children at an older age. Anyway, I love your show. Thanks very much. Bye-bye. That's a really interesting question. I just was thinking about this last night. It's so funny. We were talking about having kids. Louis was joking about it. And I will meet his kids, right? Because it's 10, 15 years, probably, you know, within the next 10, 15 years. Louis, within the next five minutes. Five minutes, right? I know.

He's like ready to be a dad. He is. My son wants to be a housewife, he says. Oh, cool. He does. House husband. No, he said housewife. Oh, he said housewife.

Oh. Yeah. He wants to have the garden, raise the kids, et cetera. So. I know he does. So I thought about it and I thought, oh, I actually won't meet Saul's children. Like, you know what I mean? I really won't.

If I am around, I'll be super frigging old and he has to have them very young. You better get to the Stanford Longevity Center, like stat. I know. It just occurred to me. And, you know, Amanda sort of got it when I, they're like, oh, you like Saul's kids. And I'm like, I won't meet them. I won't. No.

You know, and it was kind of like a moment and she got it and I got it. It was really, I was sort of like, oh my God, it's really true. You have this many years, you know, good years left and this and that. So I hadn't really thought of it, which is why I can do this because I don't think about it at all because I'm totally thoughtless about my life. So just enjoy yourself and just not think about, you know, you're not going to. I lost a parent at a young age. He was only 35 when he died, 34. And no one thought he was going to die then. So I think you don't know when you're going to die or when you're going to do things.

But I do think a lot that my younger kids will not have their parents. They'll have Amanda around. So that'll be good. But they won't have me around. But then they can talk about me. So that's great. Yeah. And remember me lovingly, I guess. I don't know. What about you? Get to having kids and Aima, what are you going to do? Your dad was 50 when you were born, correct? Yeah. Yeah. It was just about 50. And he recently died. He did. He died last year. Thanks for reminding me,

Kara. I'd forgotten. I'm kidding. Sorry. Sorry. No. The question that stuck with me when she said, how do I prepare him for the fact that he will be spending most of his life without his parents? I don't think you can prepare a kid for that. I mean, you obviously lost your dad way too young, age five. I think it's very hard to prepare. My dad, he did try, as we called it, parenting by mortality. He was like telling me all the time, like, I never thought I'd be here when you did X. I think it's be present, get one-on-one time with them. Like I had a lot of one-on-one time with my dad when I was growing up. I'd go with him on business trips sometimes, you know. He was really present in my life, and I appreciated that. He also let me be free, and he, when he was dying, you know, the last probably decade of his life was quite hard.

Like, his decline was quite, you know, he wasn't able to do things, and his world just became smaller and smaller. You spent a lot of time with him, though. I did. I would go every few weeks. You know, my sisters did more. They moved. We all moved back to the States, and my sisters moved sisters moved in actually to the home for some part of it. I didn't do that. My dad always said, you know, it's a team sport and there has to be one person who's out having fun.

That was you. And coming back and telling me about it. Yeah. And he also, he said, he was like, you know, you didn't see me in my mother's deathbed when she was dying. I was living life. You have to live your life. You know, he never, never made me feel guilty. dying. I was living life. You have to live your life. You know, he never, never made me feel guilty. And he surrounded me. One thing I really appreciate is that he surrounded me with other

adults from a young age. I mean, they're, you know, a real community of people who could give me counsel and wisdom and his two best friends, you know, I think of them as second dads. So I'm very grateful to have all those people around because yeah, you're never really prepared for it and you miss your parents very much when they're gone. Yeah. Yeah. Well, unfortunately that's the way it's going to be for them, but I'd rather have the time I have with them and I will haunt them. That's my plan. You're going to have more? Are you going to have more? No. Someone just asked me that. I was like, are you crazy? No, never. No more. I've had enough. I've done my job. Okay. This next one is not so much about parenting as it is about being a kid in a tough spot.

So this is from Twitter. And Rebecca asked this question. She says, I've had to recently cut ties with my homophobic parents. It has made me feel extremely relieved, but also a bit guilty. Kara, how did you go about your relationship with your mother while she was trying to accept things? She didn't try very hard, but it was hard. Let me just say, I think you should cut ties when it gets really bad. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. And I didn't talk to my mom for almost a year after she was really terrible about me being gay. So I think cutting ties is not a bad thing,

and maybe checking in, which is what I did. It remains difficult. It remains difficult. I mean, I don't know if she was trying to accept things, is that I would not accept it otherwise. I think one of the things I used to always say is, you don't negotiate with terrorists, and that includes parents who treat gay children badly. And if they didn't treat me equally, I would leave. I would leave.

Can you tell the story of coming out to your mom to laugh at you? Oh, it's a long, long one. How old were you? In my 20s, you know, I had been gay forever. And I always thought if she asked me directly, I would tell her, right? And I just didn't want to feel like, at the time, it was a very different world than it was now. It was so, it was bad to be gay. It was not, it was harder. It wasn't bad. It just was, cost was enormous, including your friends, right? It just was. You were much more hidden. There was all kinds of societal issues, work issues that don't exist now. And I think AIDS sort of blew everything up. Like I remember thinking,

I don't give a fuck anymore. This is ridiculous. But at the time they really did keep you under the thumb of real shame and repercussions. And so I always said, if she asked me directly, I would say so. And so on one of my, I think my 20 some birthday, and she said, what are you doing for your birthday? And I said, I'm going out with this person I was seeing. And she goes, oh, why? It's almost like you're dating. And I said, we are. You know what I mean? She would never come out and ask it because she was too cowardly to do so. And so I said, we are. And she lost her fucking mind. It was terrible. And of course she knew and was not kind. It was unkind. You know who was kind? My grandmother. My grandmother was older and much more like of an old school, old world

mentality. And I knew she didn't understand it, but she says, all I know is I love you. And that was exactly what you want to hear from someone. And she took a while to understand it, but she asked questions and really was actually great about it. She was funny and was very lovely. Even if she had a problem and didn't tell me, she kept it to herself. My mother did not keep it to herself. So how did you repair that relationship over time? You checked in?

It took a while. On that topic, it went on for years. It didn't get better, really, necessarily. I had kids. We had a big fight when I was pregnant because they wrote about my pregnancy in the New York Post, and she blamed me for it. But, you know, I think having kids, she really is a wonderful grandparent, and that made a big difference, I think. And she always comes around. She said she was never going to come to my wedding, and then she ended up there. You know, I'll come to the party, I'll come to this, and then eventually. She didn't walk me down the aisle, though.

Walt Mossberg did. And she shows up. She definitely shows up. She's around a lot. I mean, she's enmeshed with your family now. She could have done it in a nicer way, but she certainly shows up. And she tries, and I just think at some point, some people, older people just have lived in a different world where it was much harder and

it's not going to, changing their worldview is very hard on a lot of things. So anyway. Yes. Is there anything generational that you think you as a parent would have had to confront that you didn't get? It's different. It's such a different world. I can't, every now and then I get a taste. I remember what it was like to be closeted and it was terrible. And so I always say it's the only thing, if you're Jewish or black and you get anti-Semitic stuff,

your parents get it, right? Because they get it themselves. When you're gay, your parents are sometimes your enemy, unfortunately. And they're very dismissive. Listen, I just was very firm about, you know, she tried to say, oh, we're never going to talk to you again. And the family just didn't stick together, right, in that regard. Like, everybody was very lovely.

My brothers were great. My grandmother being great was really important because my relationship was never at risk with her. And so that was great. She was great. Yeah. But it's like, oh God, why was it so fraught? I don't even understand. It was such a waste of my time and emotion. So anyway. Well, now you're in a much better place. I guess. Yes, I am. Yeah. It still hurts. It still hurts. It's still, I remember it to this day. Of course. Anyway, it was unnecessary pain. It was unnecessary pain. it to this day. Of course. Anyway, it was unnecessary pain. It was unnecessary pain.

Speaking of pain, maintaining relationships and warding off bullies, let's hear our next question, which is from a friend who hasn't been a guest on this show, but we have interviewed her in the past. Hi, Kara. It's Kathy Griffin. What is your advice for wanting to stay on social media, but in a world where the trolls may always find us forever and in perpetuity? I thought she was going to yell at me and say, give me Jack Dorsey's phone number. I know. Or Elon's phone number. You know, Kathy Griffin's a really interesting character because she's very in your face. And on social media, she is too. She loves social media because it gives her a chance to mix it up. And she's a mix it up comic. She's a lot of points of view and stuff. And I sometimes I'm like, maybe you shouldn't be on social media because the attacks she gets are just terrible. Like I get people who

are rude to me. She gets real hate. When I defended her on the last thing with Elon, I was shocked by the amount of hatred aimed at me. And it was very different from, I disagree with you, Kara. It was hatred. And it was weird. I was like, oh my God, she's just a comic. Like, relax. There's so much hatred swirling out there. But you've recently locked down your comments.

I have. So you seem to be changing your mind about the trolls. Because they got nasty. I link it directly to Elon. It never happened before. And after I tweeted about the Colorado shootings, the kind of stuff I was getting was like astonishingly awful. And then I was like, why do I need this? Why do I need this? And I just shut down the comments first for limited people

who follow me. And then I just made it private for some length of time. I don't know how long. I just don't want to hear it. I don't want to hear their, they have, they can say free speech all they want, but they don't have access to me, right? Why should they have access to me? And it's hurtful and mean and weird and anonymous. It's just, I don't really care to hear their point of view. I think they will find you in perpetuity. I don't know.

Do you get a lot of attacks? No. My first piece of the Times, I got some terrible stuff and Sean Hannity and Ben Shapiro shared it and it was not fun. It was on Fox and Friends. It was not nice, but I was barely on Twitter. I don't spend a lot of time on social media and I have a timer set on them, actually, the iPhone timer. You got to have a thick skin to be in the business, right? You do. But Kathy, I would, for you, just do your job. Unfortunately, it's hard to do a job because of what happened. So I don't know. But Kathy, you'll win. The trolls won't get one over you. They won't. But I got to tell you, I'm so sorry.

So sorry of the crap you get. So I'll take a quick break and we'll be back in a minute. Quick break and we'll be back in a minute. Thumbtack presents the ins and outs of caring for your home. Out. Indecision. Overthinking. Second guessing every choice you make. In.

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All right, our question is about career. Comes in from Toronto, Canada. Atavia needs our help with salary negotiations, so let's get Atavia paid. Here's the question. I started a new job back in March of 2022. I didn't really negotiate my salary too hard. I liked what they were offering. It was more than what I was making at the time I took it. I've been talking to some co-workers of mine. We've been sharing salary information and turns out I'm probably the least paid person on the team. And it's a pretty big team. So we're coming up for a salary review in the next few weeks. And I find it extremely uncomfortable talking about money, but I also want to get paid what

I'm worth. And I don't know how to strike that balance. I've been taking on a lot of projects and extra things, helping managers and team leads and stuff like that. So I think I'm really putting in a lot of work. I just don't want to come across like that person that thinks he's such a big deal and then he's not. Oh, man. All right, money bags. I am money bags.

We ate money bags yesterday at the Thai restaurant. You know what? I've been very good about making money because I asked for it and I asked for what I'm worth. And so there's a lot going on, Octavia, in this thing, saying I think I'm worth it, but then maybe I don't want to be that person. Let me give you one piece of advice. Be that person. Be that person because you really should know your worth. And I know I'm sounding like Mika Brzezinski there, but it's really true. What they do is they operate on the fact that you don't know. They keep everything quiet in terms of

salaries. And I've been an employer and I can see why you would keep it secret. But they do take advantages of that you're uncomfortable talking about money and you shouldn't be. You just have to get rid of that. I would recommend just figuring out what everybody makes and then asking for that and saying, I know that everyone here makes that and I would like the same amount and you're underpaying me by this much. And if they don't want to do it right away, which they might not because of the recessionary situation right now, how do we get to that number? I'll tell one story and then you can weigh in. Someone offered me less than I made and it was something I really wanted to do. And they did the typical thing where they said, oh, come on, just come down and then you and I

can go out for a drink. We'll be friends. And I looked at this person, I said, we're not friends. Give me the fucking money and I'll buy you a drink. Like, no. And women always give in to the, hey, don't be difficult. It was a, hey, don't be difficult ploy. But come on, like just sign on the dotted line and I'll buy you a drink and I'll make up for the $100,000 less I'm paying you. Yeah, exactly. And I was like, I don't want to be nice. Give me the fucking money. I think I said, give me the fucking money. Did you get the fucking money? Of course I did. I'm like, I'm getting the fucking money. Give me the money. So really understand what you're actually worth and that you can do that pretty easily. Yeah. I always think I agree with you. It's like come in armed with information, know your worth, tell them what you want. I also think it is such an uncomfortable setting to ask for a raise or compensation. And one of the things I've tried to do is share the discomfort. I ask them questions, put them on the spotlight, right? Ask your boss, what is the average? You know, ask them. And then when they're like, well, we can't share that information. It's like, well, I've done the homework and this is what I found out. Because, you know, you're trying to shift the power in a way, right? And you should have other

options, like have a sense of what you want and have a sense of what else is out there. Do you, I don't like, and I don't know how you feel, asking, like having another, I never have another job to dangle to get a salary raise. I find that people do that. That's how you get salary raise. That's the only time they actually respond. I think it's about more knowing that you could have other options. I think the worst is staying in a place where you feel you're undervalued and just sitting there and waiting it out and becoming part of the toxicity. Right. It's better to leave if you really feel you're not valued, I think. That is true. That is true. All right. Let's jump into the next question, Kara. Okay. The next question comes from Twitter

via Leslie Podesta. She's a longtime listener. Actually, I know her a bit. She served on Twitter's Trust and Safety Council until stepping down weeks ago. It was also disbanded, by the way. But today she has a question about helping her kid navigate early career challenges. Let me read it. What advice would you give a person in their mid-20s, save to buy an apartment or get out and travel? My child is torn between wanting to be responsible and wanting to be free. You want to go first? Get the hell out of Dodge and enjoy yourself. I worked right away after school. I've worked since then. And my kids are yelling

at me right now. I'm continuing to. I'm also a workaholic, but get out, get out, travel. I encouraged my kid who was 20. He was at college. And it was a terrible pandemic disaster his first year at NYU. And he was the one like, oh, I should be responsible and stay. I was like, get the fuck out of Dodge. And he worked, he traveled. He worked for a butcher. He worked for a butcher. He traveled, he went with friends. Same thing this year. He's back at college, but he wanted to go travel. And I said, go for it. Always travel. I love to travel, but I think, you know, there's travel. There's like Instagram travel nowadays where people are just bopping around, seeing the world, taking photos.

And then there's living in a place. I don't see them as actually. You're right. I would say, Leslie, ask your child what they want to do. They might know what they want to do. But I would say go live somewhere else, like somewhere you don't speak the language yet, somewhere you don't know the customs, like sit with the discomfort. So much of travel these days is about consuming a place and photographing a place.

You're right. And I think the actual sitting with the discomfort and living in a place and understanding how people are trying to communicate to you, reading their body language because you don't understand the words coming out of their mouth. Those are skills that will serve your kid for a long, long time. Yeah. I just say get out. I always say get out instead of being responsible. When you go to Stanford here, they're all an achievement wheel and I don't know where they're going. Like when they get there, what are they going to do? And they will. My mistake, I haven't made any mistakes really. You were just about to admit one, Kara. Just lean into that. If I think about it, I probably should have forced myself to travel a year around the world. I didn't have that itch though.

So I don't know. Maybe it wasn't a mistake. Not too late, Kara. No. Want to go on a girl's trip? No, not even slightly. I want to go to Hawaii and sit on a beach. That would be my biggest thing.

I will say one thing. This question was phrased as save to buy an apartment. And I am amongst the millennials who does not own a home. Yeah, we'll get to that. I believe that your home will come to own you. I don't agree with that in any way whatsoever. I have owned homes since I was in my early 20s. I've always owned a home. I think it's wonderful. I love building homes. Real estate has been good to me because I invested really early with a very small amount of money, actually.

And I love owning my own home, and I've done it since my early 20s. Remember the Christine Blasey Ford testimony at the Brett Kavanaugh trial? About homeowning? I remember about casual date rape, but what?

There was a moment when they asked her why it took her so long to remember. I think she started describing a home renovation project, and I was like, oh, I find home renovations are quite boring. So I'm sure you would have been riveted. I love home renovation. I'm just about to do another one. I love home renovations.

I know, you were telling me about yours yesterday. I was feigning interest. Yes, I know, but I love home renovations. Slowly dying inside. But she started speaking love the home renovation. I know. You were telling me about yours yesterday. I was feigning interest. Yes, I know, but I love home renovation. Slowly dying inside. But she started speaking about the home renovation, and she was speaking about the fact that she needed another door. Do you remember this? So she and her husband had these arguments, and they were arguing because she wanted another door in the kitchen. And he said, why do you want another door? I believe it was in the kitchen. And that's when she remembered this memory of having to leave that room that she described right there. That's the reason to renovate.

So I'm saying there's like renovations pull out your deep-seated trauma. No, they don't. They're so deep. Let me just say, no, I have this house here. It's my house. My kids are so happy to be back here. They were raised here on a door jam as their heights when they were little to the big. When they were as small as you, Kara. They love this house and they're very happy here. And I was just thinking the other day,

I wonder who's going to live here in 50 years when we're not here. Maybe my kids, their kids. I don't know. I love it. I love it. Let's move on. Okay. Let's move on. Okay. This next one's for you. Hey, Kara. John King from CNN. Thanks for the opportunity. What's your advice for interviewing liars? A question I never imagined I would want to ask until the last few years. In the old days, we left chronic liars on the fringe and largely ignored them. But now, look around.

We see chronic liars, conspiracy spinners in positions of major political and corporate power. How would you approach an interview with one of them? Last few years, liars. Who could he be talking about? A lot of people, actually. I love John King. I think he's very genuine. You know what I mean? He really says it like it is, which is really nice. I think he approaches things interestingly, like, no, this is the numbers. Numbers don't lie. And so John King is a very math-oriented person. I'm a surprisingly math-oriented person. I'm a surprisingly math-oriented person for someone who hates math. I spent a lot of time with facts. And so when we

did the parlor interview, he kept saying things and we pushed back. No, that is not what is true. That is something, remember he did the some people say? I said, nobody says that. No one who's telling you the truth says that. That's not true. And so I think the strongest thing to do with liars is say, that's not true. And don't let them get any kind of purchase on a some people say, or there are those who do this, say this is not true, or you don't know, you actually don't know. Sometimes it's not clear and you have to be really prepared then because sometimes they can get one over on you. Yeah. Chris Wallace did a good job with Trump, remember? Yeah, he did. He did. He was very polite too. I thought that was good. You can't get angry at their lies. Yeah, because then the visual reads differently. If you appear defensive or agitated, the visual can read with the side of the person who looks more confident,

even if they're sitting on a house of lies. Yeah. And then you don't interview big liars. Interesting, Piers Morgan and I were. And then you don't interview big liars. Like, interesting, Piers Morgan and I were discussing... Who you wouldn't interview? Neither of us would interview Marjorie Taylor Greene. She's just a chronic liar. And what's the point, right? Would you want us to do it, her? You might. No, you wouldn't. I mean, would I want you to? Well, I mean, I think the thing is once you... I'm like, ooh. But once you fact check it, it gets very slim. Yeah, what do you do? If you don't catch every one of them, you're fucked, essentially. Yeah.

Now, look, you paused that. You paused on that, Marjorie Taylor Greene. Because I don't think, because I disagree. You know, I remember when Ben Smith of Semaphore was going to interview Tucker Carlson, and people were like, why are you going to platform? Why are you going to platform? It's like, first of all, these people have a platform. If you think that we're the ones giving them a platform. And two, I think asking someone hard questions is really different to giving them a soapbox.

But there's a difference with Marjorie Taylor Greene. She's a chronic, chronic, extensive liar. I think people who are divorced from reality are too dangerous to engage with in some way. There's also a difference, by the way. I came across somebody at an event who believed that only the right was being censored on social media, believed that the vaccine was utterly ineffective. And I think with those people, you don't want to bombard them the way you would in someone in power who should know better. It's completely possible that someone has gotten a whole host of misinformation. In that case, you might want to ask them.

Or they've been manipulated. Yeah, they've been manipulated. And in that case, I think you want to ask questions, trying to understand what they believe, and then kind of bring in the facts, encourage them to visit sources. I assume people are good for the most part in general. Anyways, let's move on. Okay. The next one's for you, and it's on fashion. Let's hear it. This is a question for the fashion queen Naima. What are your wardrobe staples for looking chic, approachable, yet slightly bossy in a work setting? I'm a woman in my late 20s and I'm looking to up my game and would love your advice. Ciao. Naima, I'm glad it's you because I'm completely unqualified to talk about fashion as you know.

By the way, there's a power in you're not giving a shit about fashion. Yeah, that's true. You like to tell people you're above the fray. I look fine, oh for goodness sake, but go ahead. You do look fine. I wouldn't want to make you feel like you look like you were dressed in a car wash or something. I'm not dirty, whatever. Where do you shop? Okay, I really couldn't be less interested, but where do you shop? No, come on, this isn't really a question about fashion. This is a question about how you present at work. You really dress up though, You really do. I do. But people want to act that style or fashion is vapid, but it's your way of presenting yourself

to the world. It informs how people see you. By the way, it can have an impact on how you get paid or how you get hired. I think it's an important investment. And there's all this data that shows that people who are well-groomed, whatever that means, get paid more. People who are more attractive get paid more. But then people who are too attractive get paid less, by the way. It's a diminishing return. All right. So where do you shop?

Where do you shop? Where did you find that sheepskin thing you were wearing yesterday? I'm still wearing it. It's very cold. This is a vintage Marni, I think. It's three types of lambswool, Cara. Oh, wow. Mongolian sheep wool.

Totally uninterested. Oh, wow. Mongolian sheeple. Totally uninterested, but go ahead. I think you should wear what makes you feel good in a work setting. Yes, you do wear what's comfortable for you, that's for sure. What's comfortable and what you feel confident in. Yeah, now I can't wear pants anymore, but go ahead. Go ahead. You mean hard pants? Hard pants. I can't, I'm wearing them right now and I'm very uncomfortable for an event tonight. Hard pants for people who do not know are pants that have buttons or zippers versus pants that have elasticized waistbands. Which is my favorite. You like sweatpants.

Always. You know what? I think a sweatpant with a cool, with a cool t-shirt and a chic leather blazer could be great. Yeah, that's on my list for Christmas. So I would say, you know, go for really simple lines, leather blazer, white t-shirt and jeans, a jumpsuit instead of a suit. You should replace black with navy. I think you should always look memorable. So if you have a standout thing, like I love wearing prints or statement jewelry or

metallics. You get it from everywhere, right? You shop everywhere. I shop everywhere and I pick up stuff that's interesting to me and that's unique. I try not to have something that everybody else has. And I try to buy stuff that I would wear a lot because we are in a fast fashion crisis. And I think for men, by the way, tailored blazers, good investment. Good investment. All right. Do you want any fashion advice, Carol? I'll give you some right now for free. I really don't. I really don't. I really don't. So let's move on to our next question. This is our last career question. It comes from a former guest, Rick Wilson, the co-founder of the Lincoln Project. Hi, Kara. It's Rick Wilson.

I had a quick question for you. I was wondering if I had, say, I don't know, $44 billion or so burning a hole in my pocket, and I wanted to buy a social media platform, what would I do to actually improve it and make it a useful thing in the public square rather than burning it to the ground? Thanks so much. Wow. I don't know who he's talking about. You know, interestingly, Rick Wilson, who you're very good on Twitter, by the way, very funny. I wrote Elon a note. He asked me before we weren't talking about things,

and I sent him quite a long note about things I thought were important. And I said, please don't run it yourself, I think. I was like, though he's fully capable and he should have been an important part of it, I thought a professional CEO who understood media was really important, someone who really got it, and he could handle the technical aspects of it, a little like the Google guys with Eric Schmidt when they did that. Yeah, be the grown-up in the room. He took none of my advice.

He just paid too much. It didn't matter. Once he paid this much, it was kind of impossible. Is there anything he can do now? No, I think he's really sort of really messed it up quite a bit. I think he should have just declared that, like, this is how I envision a social network, and I'm going to stay consistent to that. And the capriciousness is the problem.

I would have tried to move it away from this is a public square that's going to save humanity. That's kind of his messaging, which I was like, oh, wow, that's kind of hard to do. I wouldn't have been so attacking. Like, I would have been quiet, and I would have quietly improved the product, very quietly. I would have been quiet and I would have quietly improved the product, very quietly. I would have laid off much slower. I would have absolutely laid off, but not in the way he did it. I wouldn't have made it such a circus. And I would have tried really hard to get investors who had my vision, a long-term vision with me. I see what he was trying to do. He was trying to blow it up to rebuild it, but he just blew it up. That's all he did. And he blew up his money in the process. Now,

he still might be able to do something with it. These rich people always have an escape hatch, but it's not going to work the way he's doing it. Yeah. And it's going to cost him beyond Twitter, Tesla maybe. Yeah. That's been down under $150. Right. It's going to come to bite him. I don't know. Some things just have to die. I don't know at this point. They all do. Some things just have to die. Well, that's really nice advice, Kara. I know, but they do. So Rick asked you for some unsolicited advice for Elon, seems, you can name them. But let's do a quick lightning round. I want you to give quick unsolicited advice to each of these people. So first, Mark Zuckerberg. Looking good, Mark. Elon's making it look good. Just keep quiet. Okay. Tim Cook?

Everything's going well. You really have to get out of China. Sam Bankman-Fried? Enjoy jail. I hear you can trade cigarettes for things. What about VCs who have been backing crypto? Someone like Chris Dixon or Mark Andreessen? Good luck. Enjoy yourself. You're not going to convince us to take your money right now, but good luck. Andy Jassy, the Amazon CEO? Watch your back. Oh, what does that mean? Watch your back, Andy, but, you know, good luck. Andy Jassy, the Amazon CEO? Watch your back.

Oh, what does that mean? Watch your back, Andy. I like you very much. Okay. What about Vice President Harris? You've interviewed her before. I know her. We haven't heard a lot from her. I think she should get out there.

I think she's a really interesting politician, and she lets others define her. I've told her this myself, and she needs to define herself much more. Ron DeSantis? Oh, Ron. I don't know. I don't know, Ron. I don't think you're going to be the front runner. I don't think you have the charisma it takes to be president,

but maybe. Good luck. Unsolicited advice for me, Kara. I don't have any advice for you. Just keep on doing what you're doing. You do an excellent job, as does the entire team here at ON. What an amazing group of people, and they make me look good, and you're all astonishing talents, each and every one of you. I just wanted to get a compliment out of you. That's what it takes. All right. So we have a question for you, sent in from another former guest, a comedian. Hey, Kara, it's Mike Birbiglia. Thanks again for having me on the show, and here's my question of advice for you, because you're someone who scrutinizes things very closely and sometimes is cynical or realistic, depending on how how one looks at things.

What are you most optimistic about for 2023 and what should one be most optimistic about for 2023? one be most optimistic about for 2023? Wow. Gosh, I'm an optimistic pessimist is what I am. There's pessimistic optimists, by the way, and there's optimistic optimists who are stupid and pessimistic pessimists who are stupid. I would say I really do think that people do understand the toxicity of Donald Trump and what that means for America, not just him. It's very easy to focus on one person, about ourselves. And I think a lot of people are maybe pulling back a little bit from the abyss that they have thrown themselves into with abandon. And I think the same thing with Elon. Everyone's, like, on to him. Like, people are on to people that really don't have the same thing with Elon. Everyone's like onto him. Like people are

onto people that are really don't have the best interests at heart. And I find it mostly in young people. I have to say, I think a lot of older people are sort of steeped in anger and can't get out of it. What are we going to do? What are we going to do? Like always in a kind of quandary. I find a lot of people, young people, very onto things and very much realistic about their world, whether it's climate, which they're worried about, whether it's consumerism, whether it's what it is. And I feel whenever I talk to young people, including my own kids, I feel really good about the world. I do. I feel like they get it and they understand the challenges facing this shit we've left them.

And so I'm very optimistic about young people. I really am. I think I know everyone says they don't. They voted very well in this last election. The voter, the American voter, was like, enough of this bullshit. You don't have to be on a side to understand most of it is bullshit. Most of it is. So I'm optimistic about that.

And I do see some really interesting glimmers. The whole Sam Bankman Friedan, the Elon Musk, it's going to be in our rearview mirror. I really believe that. Okay. You think the grifter is not going to grift in 2023? I think that's a little bit, that's optimistic, optimistic. No, it's not. Okay. What's your optimist? You know what you are? You are a pessimistic optimist. No, you're a... That? You know what you are? You are a pessimistic optimist. That's what you said you are. No, I'm an optimistic pessimist. Oh, yeah. I'm actually optimistic.

I think the world is fucked, but I have great hope. That's how I feel. I'm very optimistic, I have to say. All right. So you're a pessimistic optimist. So what is your optimistic thing? I'm optimistic that there'll be more global camaraderie, more attention to things. I think that there's going to be a real pushback on globalization. And economically, that might play out. But I think people, like there's a humanism in the world that I feel people are moved by stories elsewhere. They're looking outside of themselves more.

I certainly feel I am. And I think that's a good thing for the world. It is. I'm optimistic, Mike. Mike, I have four kids. You can't have four kids and not be optimistic. That's true. He thinks you're a cynic. I'm not a cynic. All right, Kara, very last question, and we're giving it to the goat, the greatest of all time, Walt Mossberg. He tweeted asking, how do I open a bakery in Hawaii? Has either of you looked into

this? Walt, I have. And I unfortunately feel like I can't now because I have so many children. Tell us the story there, your dream of ending up in Hawaii. I wanted to live in Hawaii in like five years. Like I wanted to open a bakery, F&F donuts, fried and fat donuts. I wanted to get real big. And I wanted to just live in Hawaii and eat donuts. And this is not going to be happening for Kara Swisher. You'll be chasing Solomon around the house. That's correct. With a ball, ball, ball, ball. And I wanted to start... I love Hawaii. So I haven't yet to get a Hawaii since the

pandemic. I love Hawaii. It's my favorite place. And so I will not be opening a bakery in Hawaii as I wanted to. But a girl can dream. That should be your New Year's resolution be opening a bakery in Hawaii as I wanted to. But, you know, a girl can dream. That should be your New Year's resolution. Get the bakery in Hawaii. Never happening. I would be such a good little baker lady. It was so good. I don't know.

You'd probably yell at people. You cannot have that donut. No, you're half a donut. You can't have two donuts. You know what I would do, too, if people thought they knew who I was? I'd just completely disappear. I had a dream of just disappearing. And they'd be like, are you Kara Swisher?

I'd be like, no, no, I've never heard of her. That's what I thought. Would you like a donut? This is like the plot of Gone Girl or something. What is this? Would you like a donut? People are always so happy eating a donut. I don't think you would do well with disappearing. I don't think you can handle the irrelevance for too long, Kara. You're wrong. You're wrong. I can't do it now, but that was my plan. That was my plan. I've been trying to disappear you from the show for ages. It's not happening. It's not happening. It's not happening.

Anyways, thank you for everyone who called in and who listened this year. We'll be back next year with more of the show. I'm going to be thinking about fashion all year. No, I'm not. Not even slightly. By the way, the producers are writing in saying they're taking your advice to Atavia and they all want to raise.

Well, that's, I don't, they don't work for me. They work for you. Good luck. Good luck, Naima. So glad. Anyway, why don't you read us out? Oh, you know what? We're actually going to have producers read their own names. Oh, fantastic. Okay. So let me start. Today's show was produced by Naima Raza, Blake Nushek, Christian Castro Rossell, and Rafaela Seward. Special thanks to Andrea Lopez Cruzado. Our engineers are Rick Kwan and Fernando Arruda. And our theme music is by Trackademics.

If you're already following the show, you get a New Year's Eve disco ball. If not, make a New Year's resolution to buy one. Go wherever you listen to podcasts also and search for On with Kara Swisher and hit follow. you listen to podcasts also and search for On with Kara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. By the way, in the spirit of the holidays, we're taking a day off, so you won't hear from us on January 2nd. They say absence makes the heart grow fonder. I doubt that. But anyway, we'll be back next Thursday with a fresh episode.