On with Kara Swisher - Matt Belloni on WarnerMount, Disney Succession, Oscars & More

Episode Date: March 12, 2026

Kara sits down with Matthew Belloni, author of the flagship Puck newsletter What I’m Hearing and host of The Town podcast, to take the entertainment industry’s temperature just a few days before the Academy Awards. They dig into the Warner Bros. Discovery/Paramount/Netflix saga and the consequences of the Ellison-backed deal for creatives and crews. Then Kara and Matt debate whether consolidation can fix Hollywood’s broken economics and why legacy companies are facing a “Titanic-esque” moment as linear TV collapses. They also unpack the streaming wars, Netflix’s next moves, Disney’s succession questions and how AI could reshape filmmaking from visual effects to writers’ rooms. Plus, they make their predictions for the Oscars. Questions? Comments? Email us at [e-mail] or find us on YouTube, Instagram, TikTok, Threads, and Bluesky @onwithkaraswisher. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You're a snarky person, which I love. But, and I love that part, but at your heart, you're an excellent reporter. And that's the critical part. Hi, everyone, from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. This is On with Kara Swisher, and I'm Kara Swisher. My guest today is Matt Bellany, author of Puck's flagship newsletter, What I'm Hearing, and the host of the podcast, The Town. It covers the, quote, real inside conversation about money and power in Hollywood,

and amazingly, it actually delivers on that promise. Everyone in Hollywood reads and listens to Matt, whether they like him or not. He doesn't mince his words, which has made him both very popular and a little more than polarizing. I can relate. I'm excited to talk to him because he always has such smart takes on stuff. And Matt at his heart is a great reporter. He also has a point of view, and it's reformed by reporting, and I really enjoy talking to him. And, of course, we're at a real moment for Hollywood and media in general.

And so I couldn't think of someone smarter to talk to about the topic than Matt. Streaming has upended the traditional Hollywood revenue model. Consolidation has become essential to survival. President Trump is then weighing in on editorial decisions and mergers. An AI-generated video is likely to make an already tricky business environment even more complicated. So it's great to have an insider like Matt on to unpack it all, and of course we'll talk about the Oscars, not the outfits, but the business. Our expert question comes from Richard Pelleple, the founder and CEO of Eden Productions, and the former CEO of H.E. HBO, another person who knows a thing or two about Hollywood. So stick around.

Support for On with Carous Fisher comes from the 2027 Chevy Bolt. Oh, I love the Chevy Bolt. I have mine. How long is 25 minutes a quick workout or a stop to the grocery store and it's all the amount of time it takes you to charge your Chevy Bolt? As I said, I drive the Chevy Bolt myself, an older version and now the bolt is back and better than ever, I may have to trade it in. You can charge from 10% to 80% in just 25 minutes with public DC fast charging. That's about half the length of this very podcast. Explore Chevy's most affordable EV at Chevy.com slash bold. Actual charge times will vary. See owners man in for details and limitations.

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There's so much going on. I don't quite know where to start. But I- Why have you never been to the Oscars? Because I'd hate that shit. I've been to the Vanity Fair Oscar party. Okay, but you should come to the Oscars at least once, just to see it. No, I saw them at the old Vanity Fair Oscar party, which when it was at the Sanbas.

No, no, it was up the one. Sunset Tower. That was fun. I got a good time there. Yeah, that was when that party really mattered. That really did. I was there one year, because I wrote for Vanity Fair only to go to that party. I said, this is my only reason.

You don't even have to pay me. And the first year I went, all the tech people were invited because they were suddenly hot, but not that hot, right? And I just got stuck there with all the tech people who kept trying to talk to me because they didn't know anybody. And I'm like, can you get the fuck away from me? And so I can meet some celebrities. Yeah. Well, then they moved it to a bigger venue so they can invite all the Procter & Gamble brand managers and LVMH ad buyers that kind of ruined the party. Although they say they're cutting the guest list by half this year.

Well, it was okay. I mean, one, Elon Musk asked me to fix him up with people, and I said, absolutely not. Did he have his real hair then, or was it supposed to transplant? Well, I don't know what was happening. He looked okay. He's one of the better-looking techies. Anyway, I don't want to go to the Oscars. Anyway, let's talk about you. We're here talking about you and what's going on. You're a must-read, must listen to a reporter, and you're the guy who plays himself on Seth Rogen's Apple series, the studio. Oddly enough, I played myself on Silicon Valley, so it's kind of funny. It's weird, isn't it?

Yeah. Yeah, we're the, like, I was the go-to on tech, and you were absolutely the go-to on Hollywood. So you described yourself as the guy with a megaphone on the Titanic, which made me laugh. Explain a little bit about how you look at yourself in your competition. Honestly, I don't think about that. All I do is try to differentiate. That's what you're doing in media in general, and particularly in subscription media. When I launched my newsletter, I was like, okay, so I came from that world. I came from The Hollid Reporter where I worked for 14 years.

I was the editor-in-chief there. And I kind of know what the trade media does well and what they don't do very well. Right. So I was like, all right, I'm just going to do what they don't do very well. The trades don't have a voice. They don't have opinions. They don't have perspective. Well, more they do.

But yes, you're right. They just type press releases. There's more than that. I agree. I agree. I'm sorry. That was unfair. It's a lot of approved news where you're working with relationships and you get, you know,

It's a lot of handouts and things like that, which is fine. Like, no shame. I did that for a long time. But I knew that when I was just doing this on my own, I could ignore big stories if I didn't feel like I had anything to add to it. Right. So I figured, all right, I'm going to either tell readers something that they don't already know and that they probably won't get from the other media outlets.

Right. Or I'm going to have a perspective and an insight and analysis that I feel from my 20-something years covering this business that I can offer that others can act. Yeah. And the goal is really to reflect what people are actually talking about. And if you can do that in a way that relates to people and is accessible and doesn't feel like your, like it's homework. I feel like that's a real way to get an audience.

With insights, right. And you're not beholden to them necessarily. They're sort of behold. I mean, I tried to get myself in a position in tech where they're beholden to me versus hand. You know what I mean? or else if they ignored me, it didn't matter. Like Yahoo did that to their detriment, so did Uber. But you want to have sourcing, and yet you get more sourcing if you're tougher from

my perspective. I don't know how you feel about that. I agree, and you become undeniable. Like, that's the whole goal. I hate that word in Hollywood because everyone uses it. It's got to be undeniable. But it really has to be when you're an independent media outlet and there isn't a 100-year-old relationship between your outlet and the companies that you cover, which is what the trade

outlets are, you really have to make, to insert yourself into the narrative and keep yourself there. And you do that by telling people stuff they don't know and by surprising and sometimes even entertaining people. I do stuff that's just supposed to be fun. You're in a battle. When you are independent media, you are always in a battle for opens. What is going to cause someone to open what you send them and not open it? And that's the stat I look at more than anything, more than clicks that we don't care about clicks at Puck. We don't care about even, you know, the traditional metrics like, I don't care about revenue. I don't care about that. You should. I should care about revenue, but I care about open rates. If my open rates stay where they are and they've stayed really consistent.

What are they? Usually between 70 and 80%. That's very good. When you said Megafon and the Titanic, though, are the others in trouble? Do you feel like, and are you yourself? That was in reference to Hollywood, not other media outlets. Right. I see. Okay. The Titanic. The Titanic, In that metaphor, and honestly, the second I said it, I said, oh, my God, that's going to be the headline. And so and behold. Yeah. There it was. But is it a Titanic or is it just a resetting?

I think it's both. I think for many of these legacy companies, this is a Titanic-esque moment because they are so tethered to a model that is disappearing. The linear television model, the cable television, the expensive model. Yeah. The people will pay for content. they don't actually consume model, that is going away. And it's been going away off and on now for 15 years. But it's really reached mission critical where these companies are being dragged down and forced to consolidate because they are tied to a model that isn't working. Which they knew about.

Because the model was so lucrative and the margins were so high, none of the executives were willing to blow up their own model to compete for the next generation. of subscribers. And it shows. They got their lunch eaten by the tech companies. And now what we've seen over the past five to seven years is this gradual, gradual and then all at once take over by the disruptors. So let's then start talking about that, talking about Warner Mount or Para. I prefer WarnerMount. There's Parabros, but I don't like that. That sounds-Para-Bros works better. You like Parabros? I'll go with WarnerMount for you. You've been predicting the Ells since the winners, since we and I have gone back and forth the auction, even after Netflix closed on the $83 billion deal for the studio and streamer back in December. Talk a little bit about it. I thought it would take a lot longer. I thought they wasted enormous amounts of time by not just up in the bid, getting in there and winning it with the money, because I did, I'm fully aware that the biggest price wins, period, in all these deals. Yeah, I think the Ellison's were a little arrogant at the beginning, and they thought that they could come in and swipe this asset for not very much money. They did not anticipate.

Netflix being interested or coming in as aggressively as they did. And listen, you know Larry, I know David. That's the reason from the very beginning, I said, these guys are not going away. This is something that David has said to his father, I want to do this for 40 years. This is going to be my life, just like the tech industry was your life. So please let me do this and let's do this together. And when you have that kind of buy-in from someone who is so wealthy, They just were never, Larry, they were never going to go away. They were going to push and push and push. The only thing I thought was Larry's, look, I know David to have interviewed him, Larry is brilliant.

I wouldn't say the same about David. You can push against me, but Larry is brilliant in the area he was brilliant in. And I thought he just can't even think this is a good deal. Like he's just, he's been so incredibly savvy about paying the right price for things and never overpaying and cutting and, you know, just one of these sort of rapacious tech executives from the earlier days before the internet. And he was able to switch and shift really drastically. So I was surprised. It felt a little indulgent for him. And I suppose, what's the reason? Listen, he has one adult son. And his one adult son has devoted his life to this. And he's 81 years old, 82. Yeah. And he's going to live forever. But if he doesn't, this money's going to David anyways. And his sister,

Megan and others. But I think that once David said, I want to do this, it was a matter of figuring out the contours of the deal. And keep in mind that this is not all Larry's money. They're bringing in the Saudis. They're bringing in the Qataris. They're bringing in the Chinese now. Yeah. They're leveraging this company with almost $80 billion of debt. And he's saying to David, essentially, you need to make this work. Right. But the whole deal happened because Lillard, very finally agreed to backstop it. I mean, that was one of the big defection. He was slow to.

He was slow to. And I think it's because his nature is like, are you fucking kidding me? Like, I can hear him thinking that. I've spent a lot of time with him. And it wasn't smart, but he wanted to indulge his son. It felt like that to me. And he thought he didn't have to. He thought they could get away with it.

And the Warner Board looking at this said, wait a second. We have Netflix who's going crazy with profits and EBIT every year. Why wouldn't we go with the safe buyer over this if you're not even going to backstop it. Right, exactly. So regardless who bought it, you noted there is no good outcome for Hollywood. Either way, we're likely to see massive playoffs. This is something I said. I'm like, this is not, they have not do $6 billion. It's more like $16 billion. Well, that's what Ted Sarando says at Netflix. Yeah, he is correct. I mean, it's somewhere between six and 16, but it's definitely not six. And it could be even more, you know, talk about what's at stakes here, not only for the

executives involved, but for the people who actually create films and television. I, I'm like, this is look, I keep saying, look out below. if they get it. Stop attacking Netflix quite so much because it would have been a very different party. Yeah, at least that's what Netflix said when they were bidding. I think you're right, though.

I think that the coming together of two legacy studios with everything that they are carrying right now from everything from creative executives down to the janitorial staff, all of that will be merged. It's 47,000 people, I believe, 17 from Paramount, 30,000 from Warner.

Yeah, I've seen 35 at Warner, but I'm sure that's somewhere in that ballpark. It's a lot. And even if you take out 20 to 30 percent of those employees, that is tens of thousands of people. These are middle class jobs. These are creative class jobs. This is devastating for these people, for the companies, for the city of L.A., where most of these people work, for the city of New York, where CNN is. In Atlanta, where CNN also has a big presence. So from a macro perspective, it is just a shrink. of the traditional entertainment business. Right. And so they say they can de-leverage it fast. Nobody believes them because none of these.

I wrote a whole book on the AOL-Time Warner merger. They were not able to do and realize these gains. And I remember when they got Paramount and they had their first press conference. I don't know if you were there. And they kept saying, and David in particular, was like, use AI and do things. And I'm like, okay, specifically.

They have this like magic oracle dust that they're going to sprinkle over the whole company. I'm sorry. And I was like, okay, but specifically. And they're like, AI. And I was like, specifically, like, can you give me one fucking specific? And they never could. And I just think, I was like, well, isn't your dad intact?

They keep leaning on the fact that they hired a product guy from MEDA. Oh, that always won't. And they say, in Jerry Cardinal, who's the Redbird dealmaker. I heard him. He was on the town. And he said that they are going to be the first time that a studio and a Silicon Valley powerhouse are coming together. And I said, really? I think Netflix would like a word about that.

But whatever. And there were lots of efforts in this area, by the way. But you know what, let's just say they can. Let's say that they can use a little bit of Larry's prowess in this area and create a best-in-class platform, create a recommendation engine that is way better than what they currently have, can eliminate duplicative jobs. That's still. It's table stakes. That's already where Netflix was, yeah. Because remember what happened when Warner Brothers and Discovery came together.

David Zazlov made very simple. similar predictions about how they were going to be able to achieve synergies and the content is going to take us to the moon on subscribers. AOL time Warner. It's been going on forever. I know. But from the very beginning of Warner Brothers Discovery, the prediction they made on the revenue and profit did not come to roost because, like we said, the linear TV business is cratering

faster. Now, Ellison says that they're very aware of that now and they know what the decay rate is in television. They've modeled that in conservatively. Maybe that's the case, but maybe it's worse than they think. And they're going to have to cut even more. And what does that do when you're saying that they're going to release 30 movies a year in theaters? And they're going to increase the investment for their streaming properties. That all costs a lot of money while at the same time taking out $6 to $16 billion from the company. I'm more interested in what are they going to make that's going to make that money. Like cutting costs is one thing. But when Zaslov came in,

he's like, we're going to make this, this, and this. I'm like, really? I don't believe you. Like, you can't cut your way to growth. And I was like, what, again, specifically are you going to make that suddenly going to, what are you going to do Bitcoin? Oh, that's the might not work. Like, what's your plan? And I don't, I don't hear fresh ideas. I hear a lot of old retread ideas that I heard when I wrote my old time Warner book. I don't hear a lot of like, how can you save money? I just, I don't get it. It doesn't make sense. But so after David Olsen struck the deal to buy Warner Brothers Discovery with his father's money, Zazlov called the process thrilling and exciting. He's laughing, of course, all the way to the bank.

And Kim Masters had a great piece in your column today that I thought was terrific. And it's something I knew about, but not everyone did, showing how the resume is pretty thin because David leading this. Talk a little bit about the relationship between Zazloff and David Ellison, the two person I was behind what will be truly massive layups. I guess Zazloff will ride off in the sunset with his pile of cash. Yeah, he is set to make $800 million off of this deal. Yeah, it's like, remember the Starbelly Snitch, the Snitches, the guy who came, he's that guy. Yeah, I mean, it is a grotesque. Monkey McBean or something, yeah. It is a grotesque amount of money for someone who is not a founder. He is a media manager that came to this company, saw that Discovery Communications was floundering in the linear TV era. He bolted his company onto HBO and Warner Brothers under the theory that it was,

If they could create a streaming powerhouse, it might take them to the Promise Land. It didn't work. I had drinks with him. Heard that one. Well, listen, more power to him because he created this scenario where all of a sudden, the fourth richest man in the world's son wanted to buy the company, lucked out like nobody's business, and now he's going to reap the reward. So the shareholders are the big winners here.

They are. There are because it was at seven and then it sold at 31, which was incredible. And I was like, was there $22 of value or whatever, the $24 of value in there? Like, there wasn't. Like, nothing got created. In fact, things got cut. Yeah. It's just the perception when Netflix wanted this and the Ellison's wanted it, the bidding was off.

The Ellison's were only prepared to pay $19 a share when they made their first bid. Yeah. So, and that was for all the companies. So it's just, it's a very fortuitous situation for Zazlov. But now he's in this position where they had a town hall on the line. today in Burbank, where they're talking about integrating these companies and kind of dancing around the layoff issue. And they have to figure out what they're going to do with each of these assets. Like Ellison is saying HBO should stay HBO, be the premium brand. But he doesn't

address the fact that HBO has actually broadened out pretty significantly over the past three years to try to be something other than just HBO. The HBO Max brand, They're doing things like The Pit, which was not perceived as like a traditional HBO show. Or buying heated rivalry. Yeah. Yeah, but that's a little bit less at least racy. That was a smart buy. Yeah, it was a smart buy.

But that's at least more traditional HBO show. My point is they're doing more broadly commercial shows at HBO. And that is overlapping now with what Paramount is doing. And they have a whole apparatus there designed to increase the amount of content on Paramount. Plus, they're going to merge these two together. But how are they going to merge it? Because they're very different brands. One is a luxury brand.

The other is kind of like yellowstone. I mean, the good part is they're complimentary. Yes, they are. That one is broadcast style, CBS style content. In fact, the CBS shows live on Paramount Plus. And then the other is premium. And do you lean into the HBO brand? Do you lean into the CBS brand?

There's going to be some very interesting decisions made there. How does it go together? And then you have two movie studios. I mean, Paramount has been so weak. as a movie studio over the past two decades because of the mismanagement of the Summner Redstone people. But they have no franchises. Not no franchises. They have some, but they do not have the treasure trove of superheroes. Which is why they needed Warner. Exactly. It was an existential situation for this company. They have Harry Potter. They have Lord of the Rings. They have

Doom. Game of Thrones. Yeah, Game of Thrones. They have all these franchises. And how are they going to integrate these two studios to best take advantage of that. Stack rank the assets for me really quickly. Like the studios are on top, right? Presumably. Yes, but not for the reason you think. They're not on top because of any output that they are doing this year. I mean, Zazlov loves to talk about how Warner Brothers had a great year in 2025,

and he's turned around the studio, and that's why they were so attractive. But that's not the reason. Hello, bride of Frankenstein, but go ahead. They are, I know, the bride. That's the thing. He's not talking about the bride. And in the grand scheme of things, the bride doesn't matter either. What matters is this is a 100-year-old studio with 100 years of movies and franchises that can be exploited across all platforms. That is where these studios really have value. The IP. And that's what Netflix wanted. They saw that and they're like, oh, my God. You know, if you look at Netflix on a random Tuesday night, half the movies at least, at least. in their top 10 are movies that they have licensed from another studio. That's right. Because they are known properties that perform on all platforms.

Right. And it's something people want. And then so the studios, what goes next? HBO. I mean, HBO. HBO is a global brand. It has a track record. It means something.

I mean, all of these linear businesses, they're trying to transition over to streaming. HBO has done it. They have a streamer with, you know, I think it's at about 130, 140 million subscribers now. Yeah. And they have successfully grown this to be one of the streamers that matters. Yeah. So now they're combining it with another streamer that is sort of matters.

Yeah. Kind of. Yeah. And if they can put those together and create a legitimate Netflix and Disney competitor, maybe the Ellisons will have one of the three, maybe four services that survive this era of turmoil. That is the goal. All right. Anything else that's worthwhile? News. Let's talk about the news and the network because there's the broadcast network and then there's the news division. So what's going to happen with CNN? Because that was going to be spun off, which I thought was the

smartest situation. Perhaps. Obviously, CBS gets written about a lot. I think it matters much less than people go on and on a... Oh, see, I disagree. I think CBS... Tell me why. CBS broadcast or CBS News? CBS Broadcast. I'm talking about the news. Oh, yeah, yeah. News doesn't... News to be honest, it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. The CNN carriage fees do matter. They are still throwing off a lot of profit. They are. And that is one of the few handful of networks that you can't cancel. A cable provider is not going to drop CNN for a number of reasons, but mostly for the five times during the year when people actually care and want to watch CNN. So CBS, though, is a real asset. Like, broadcast ratings are still a thing. If you look at the live,

plus 35 rankings, which is, you know, the night it air is plus 35 days. Even when you include Netflix, Amazon, and other streaming shows, CBS has a big chunk of the most watched shows still. This is broadcast entertainment evening. This is anything. This is including stranger things. Right. CBS will still, now, the audience is geriatric. They are.

And getting older. But CBS has football. it has now UFC, it has golf, it has marquee sports products, and it has broadcast shows. And as we've seen the audiences abandon cable, they haven't abandoned the broadcast networks as some have thought they might. Plus they can get some on streaming and it also has another life on streaming. Exactly. So for now at least, CBS is a very important asset, not in 20 years, but as a long as it can carry live sports, it is going to be an important asset.

So sports is key there. News is not at all. Not to CBS. I mean, that's why I think many people believe that CBS News and CNN will be combined. Absolutely. And that CNN will likely end up programming the news portion of CBS. And there'll be one news organization across both, which is not dissimilar to what happened at NBC. Right.

But then they split it up. where MSNBC and NBC broadcasts were powered by NBC News. Now, there was a lot on MSNBC that didn't work on NBC because it was more advocacy journalism, but they at least had one NBC News. Now, of course, they're split up and they're having to figure that out. But I think what we'll see is one, and I don't know if it'll be branded CBS News or be branded CNN, probably CNN because that's the news brand. Sure, and it's global.

And you'll end up seeing CNN programming the evening news on CBS and programming the morning show. And all the news breaks and election coverage, all of that will come from CNN. And you'll be able to take the employee count of CNN, which is about 3,000 people now, maybe cut that in half and maybe cut in half the CBS News staff and then just do one combined product. Do you think, well, the nightly news doesn't matter anymore? It's not, well, I don't know. I mean, CBS is third place. But if you look at the ratings, there is still an audience for that evening news. But if you go to 25 to 34, I hate to tell you, pivot is bigger. Like, I'm sorry. Oh, but they're not going to 25 to 54. Right. That's where they're going to old people. They're going to, they've long since abandoned that. And if you look at the ads on those shows, it's all pharma and heating pads and things like that.

And shower and Sky Rizzy. But they're worried about sort of the Trumpy politics that the Ellison's employed to get this deal through. That's not going away. No, no. Although David, for people that don't know, was quite a Democrat for a while, right? I think he probably still is. Honestly, I just don't think he is particularly ideological. No, I would agree with you.

And my dealings with him, he's not doing this because he has some internal desire to change the world politically. This is not a murder. His father is much more political. watch more, especially around Israel, of course. Yes. And David cares very much about Israel as well. He does. But I think that he's just being opportunistic here. He sees that they have a window and he sees that his father has a relationship with Trump. And they've got two and a half years to, you know, do whatever they want. And there will there will likely be very little pushback

from the Trump's. And I just feel like that's, it's more of a business thing for him. And he does see an opportunity, I think. I mean, if you look at the news landscape, there is one right-leaning news powerhouse in television, and then there are about seven or eight that at least lean a little bit left-center or left. And what I think Ellison is trying to do, and I think he's trying to compete more overtly with Fox. Right. And they will continue to do that. I think he's going to get his head handed to him by the Fox people are as clever as can be. I can't stand it, but. They are. And, and, and, and, and, and People think Fox is successful because it's conservative? No.

That's not why. No. They have a formula. Yes. They have the vibrant screen, as Roger Ailes called it. They have personalities. They know the audience. They constantly refer to the audience, the audience, the audience.

They know their consumer and they hit it hard all the time. Yeah, I just don't think they know media. I just, media news. I just don't, I think they're not very good at it. It doesn't think it matters that much to them. But, you know, if it gets their deal through, that's, I think, was the point. We'll be back in a minute. Support for this show comes from Quince.

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Less stress, less time, more results. When you need the right person to cut through the chaos, this is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs. And listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit to help get your job the premium status it deserves at Indeed.com slash podcast. Just go to Indeed.com slash podcast right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. That's Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring, do it the right way with Indeed. So every episode, we ask an expert to send our guest a question. Let's hear yours. Hi, I'm Richard Klepler, former chairman and CEO of HBO. Currently, I have a production deal at Apple. My question from that is, if you were, let's say, hypothetically,

offered $150 million from your partnership at Puck and asked to be president of the new Warner Paramount venture. What would be the first two strategic moves that you would make at the company when you came in? Hmm. Interesting question. Well, if I got $150 million, I'd probably buy, I'd probably buy David Geffin's yacht first and then go sailing for a few years. But, Okay, so first I would combine the two streaming services under the HBO Max name. I really hope Paramount doesn't go with the Paramount side of this because that brand doesn't mean anything. That is a streaming brand that has not achieved cultural significance in the world. Now, obviously HBO is great for people like you and me, but it's also not great for others who may say,

that those shows are not for me. But I think that's why you keep the Macs name on there. Right. It's just a little signal that this is more than just HBO. And all of those television brands are tiles on HBO Max. Correct. Like Disney's do it. Like what Disney does.

And Disney, I think that's worked. I think that the branding is working. And it's about to get even bigger because they're going to get rid of Hulu and put it under the Disney Plus moniker. So that, I think, and they haven't decided whether they're doing that yet. I think they should. They should have it all under HBO Max. Okay. So that's one.

That's one. Second, and this is something that they are thinking about through my reporting, I think that they should lean into experiential on the movie lots. They will now have two of the legacy movies lots. Amazing movie lots, actually. They're beautiful properties. They are, ones in Hollywood, ones in Burr, Bank, and at least on one of them, they should try to reimagine what the studio lot theme park

looks like. I love that idea. It should not be what universal is. No roller coasters. No. None of that. It should be more like what Netflix is doing with their Netflix houses, where it's a rotating thing where you go in there and maybe for six months, it's a Godfather experience based on the

Godfather movies. And you can interact with the- the movies, you can place yourself in the movie. Then maybe there's something, there's a game or something based on, you know, there's something about Mary. Yeah, I went in and sat on the friend's couch and then looked at the Warner, the costume lot. There is a tour, a special tour of Warner that is wonderful, let me just say. And it's really fun.

Imagine that supersized. I would love that. Imagine if you had experiences and that you could, maybe you could meet somebody or, you know, something where you're reimagining it and you turn those lots into, working offices, which is, which they currently are. And it would, it would help to alleviate some of the pain of the production going to other locations. Right. Because a lot of those studio lots are not used anymore. No, they're not. That could be really fun. That would be, and it could make some money and people would go. I would go. It's how Universal started. Yeah. They literally started with a tram tour and say,

let's bring people in and let them see how we work. And then now this business is, is a real profit driver. Which one had the flood? That, Was that Universal or was it Warner? They have a flood. Universal does the flood. That was really fun. With the Jaws, the Jaws thing. They have the Jaws shark.

Then you go in, they have a Fast and Furious roller coaster about to open. Yeah. I mean, those are now driving, those are driving the profits at Universal and Disney. Yeah, that's a great idea. I hope that that's something they should focus on. I agree with you. So talk about the Netflix of it all. The stock rebounded, obviously, after they pulled out of the auction.

You've said this is personally embarrassing for CEO Ted Serendos who made nice with Trump. sort of while he was trying to get the deal through. He wasn't that bad. I mean, they're all bad, but on the stack ranking. Oh, I don't think it's that embarrassing. Did I say it was embarrassing? Yeah, you did, but I don't think it is at all. I was surprised when I read that. I think it's a little embarrassing, but nothing damaging to Ted. Like, he'll move on. Right. And you point out the company is getting this $2.8 billion. They still rock. I'm sorry, they're still really smart about how they program. They do, but I don't think they're done here. I don't think they're, I don't think they're just going to say, you know what, we tried. Let's go back to our core business of streaming and let's not try to be a fully

diversified media conglomerate like some of these other companies. I think that if Sony is available in the near future, they will go after Sony Pictures and try to buy that because it's the next best thing to Warner Brothers. If among studios that might be available, it's got a pretty big library. It's got a great TV production business. And importantly, there would be fewer antitrust concerns, I think, because they wouldn't be dominating the streaming market like they would have if they had bought HBO. Right. That's interesting. So Sony? Sony, I think that there are other companies. Scott has talked about a Disney hookup. We're going to get to Disney in a second. Scott thinks that Netflix and Disney are going to merge. He wants them to, I think, more than any.

I was like, you cannot get that one through. No, no, no, no, under any circumstances. I believe the Apple thing more than I believe the Netflix thing. Oh, interesting. Apple and Disney, Because Apple at least, that would take Apple in a different direction. Sure. I think I just don't see Netflix wanting to deal. Sony is a great idea. AMC, they can hook up a lot of content, right? They could.

I mean, Lionsgate is for sale. I don't think that Netflix is going to buy Lionsgate. I know they're stock pop. AMC? AMC? AMC, I assume you mean the networks, not the theaters. Yes, no, not the theater. Maybe, but I don't, but again, like.

Let me be clear. Ted Serenos does not like theaters. He does not. He does not. He said it to me on stage publicly. I know he doesn't. He likes him okay. He says he personally likes going to the theater, but it's not our model. I think he correctly, since it's like, let consumers do what they want. If they don't like them and they are showing they don't like them by not going except sometimes, let consumer, he's a let consumers decide, and I think he's right.

Well, unless he's trying to buy a theatrical movie studio and then all of a sudden for two months, he changed his tune and said, well, we weren't in that business and now we're going to be in this business and we're going to honor. That was the most painful part. But he didn't give up Susan Rice, so let's give him that. So you think they'll be fine? They'll be. Oh, yeah.

I'm not worried about it. They kind of won by losing, right? Yeah, they got paid off. They slowed their competitor down. They caused a very deep-pocketed competitor to pay a lot more money than they would have. Center of shitty action, a lot of controversial, layoffs, crazy news people, like everything, right? And if this all goes. as every other media merger has gone over the past 50 years,

these assets could be available in four or five years. That's correct. Where Netflix could then swoop in and get it potentially for a lot cheaper. Or get the pieces they want. And, you know, to me, Warner is the Hope Diamond. Like, anyone who gets it dies. Is Dasloff going to be allowed to go anywhere in Hollywood now after he's sort of done this?

I mean, from a shareholder point of view, nice job, Dave. From a Hollywood studio point of view, boy, I'd be pissed off. I don't think talent is going to be lining up to go to his dinner parties, like they have been the last couple of years when he's invited them over to Bob Evans' house. You know, he lives in Bob Evans house. I know, I know. I'm aware. I think he will end up selling that house.

Yeah. Because that was a surrestee move, wasn't it? He will be more comfortable in New York and the Hamptons. He should go to New York and the Hamptons and put on his, you know, comfortable sneakers. And he can go to lunch with Barry Diller and David Geffen and they will all high-fied him. Laugh their ass off. because Geffen invested. He made some money. Oh, yeah. He made hundreds of millions of dollars. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, they're rich. Get richer. Anyway, you're right. That's what you should do.

Let's count how many times he is thanked at the Oscars. Oh, yeah. That's true. It's not going to be like... It's going to be the Mike and Pam show. Mike DeLuca and Pam Abdi will get thanked over and over again. Although, I've been saying this for a week now, and I think because I've been saying that, they have been telegraphing to the talent to make sure to thank him. So I may have, I may have spoiled my own theory here. Oh, you should have kept to yourself. All right. So let's get to Disney really quick. A big story come out with holiday, this succession story. Josh DeMorrow, the current chairman of Disney experiences takes over, his behemian experiences, takes over his CEO on March 18th. You've written, quote, Disney's honeymoon period obscures a bunch of under-discussed challenges across the company. But especially in the content realm, you're absolutely light where tomorrow is the least experience and potentially conflicts are already brewing. What are the big challenges for tomorrow and the legacy of Bob Eiger? I think for Disney, the real challenge is to shore up. the streaming future and create and really have a powerhouse growing and profitable streaming

service because Disney Plus is not growing, not nearly as fast as some of the others. They have pulled back the investment there because they were so concerned about profitability after the spending spree during COVID. And they really have to figure out what their strategy is. Do they even want to be a general interest streaming service? that's a legitimate question. The Disney brand and what Disney stands for and what a lot of people subscribe to Disney Plus for.

Kids program. Yeah, it's not the stuff that is pumped out on Hulu. It's not the Ryan Murphy stuff. It's not, you know, and does Disney even want that? I could see tomorrow looking at this and saying, well, okay, let's spin off these linear networks, FX and freeform and even ABC and focus on what makes Disney. Disney, Disney, right, which is a very good business. There isn't anyone near them at so many tries to reach Disney. I mean, there's bits and pieces like K-pop demon hunters and etc. But there's not, they're really, if I had to, someone was like, if you had to get rid of a streaming service, I said two, I'd have to have Netflix and Disney. That's it. And if I had to, I like Netflix better, but if I got rid of Disney, my kids would kill me. Yeah. And maybe he'll decide that that's their future and not trying to compete with Netflix and YouTube.

to be the everything service. Well, what happens to ABC? That would be a big about face from the Iger strategy. He did think Disney deserved to be up there with all. I mean, he was a television guy. He was a broadcasting guy.

So ABC was his North Star and being all things to everyone. Maybe not for tomorrow. I think gaming, tomorrow has had the Epic Games relationship and they're developing a Disney presence in Fortnite. I could see Tomorrow making a big acquisition

in gaming. Oh, Epic. To try to keep up. with that world. Disney has had a horrible track record. Oh, trust me. I've been there for every one of those. Oh, I can't even remember all the names. Yeah, I remember it was Club Penguin and then it was... There was another one. There was a multi-channel group that they bought called Maker Studios. Oh, makers. I told them not to do that. I was like, no, no, no, that was a disaster. Yeah, it wasn't that expensive, but they did flop on that. I know, but it was dumb. And then Jimmy Patero had to clean it up,

essentially. It has not been their successful area. And maybe, maybe, uh, tomorrow, can reverse that. I think interactivity with AI, they have this open AI deal where they've now handed over their characters to open AI to create interactivity on Disney Plus. We'll see about that. And the biggest challenge

and something that I really hope DeMorrow can leverage his theme park experience to create is Disney needs to create the Everything app. The app that Disney fans can feel like serve all of the things that they want

out of Disney. Shows, social networking, shopping, games, theme park experiences. You still cannot really sync up your Disney Plus with the experiential experience that you have in a park. I'll give Iger this. He tried early and often, and he didn't succeed quite a lot. But he did, of the many executives I dealt with,

he definitely kept making efforts. It just didn't work. So what is his legacy now? Of course, everyone knows in 2022 the board fires Bob Chapic, Bob Iger's ham pick successor. He comes back as CEO. He was mighty bored on the ship in the South Seas. So when he was in charge, they settled this Trump lawsuit that probably could have won. Jimmy Kimmel gets suspended and then reinstated, although I think there's a little more complexity of that over these Charlie Kirk comments.

It looks like caving to Trump. Again, I have a feeling there's a more interesting story there. So to talk a little bit about this final moment for Bob Eiger, because the stock is now. not, you know, has not done very well. If that's the way you want to judge it, but judge it on a couple of different ways. I will judge it on a couple ways because there's first, there's Iger one and then there's Iger 2. And Iger 1, I think most people would agree that he did a fantastic job setting up the company for the digital future in the sense that he bought the IP machines that have powered Disney to be one of those companies that we all now accept is going to survive.

That was not a given when Iger took over. No, he was. He was early, I have to say. So buying Pixar, buying Marvel, buying Lucasfilm, Fox a little bit diceier. They bought it. That was a very expensive deal. And they got some great stuff. I'm still kind of defending the Fox deal.

But a lot of people think they way overpaid and didn't get that much out of it. Right. Way overpaid. When did that ever happen? I know. But at least they had the tools to launch Disney Plus. And to really compete. Iger, too, when he came back, it was a much different situation.

It was a triage mode for a little bit. They cut the costs. They fired a bunch of people. They stopped doing a lot of the things that were enabled under Chepeg. They're just now, you know, Pixar just did a big interview where they're saying, yeah, we stopped making movies that were personal hand-drawn projects from filmmakers. Now we're going back to big, broad Disney style entertainment, which should have been a given, But it wasn't for a while at Disney.

So he's kind of set the company back on track in some ways. But in others, it feels like Disney is a little behind. In streaming, it feels like they're not as aggressive as some of their peers. The stock is certainly not where it should be. There's no growth narrative for Disney. And Iger has really struggled to articulate what the next 20 to 30 years of the Walt Disney company are going to be. Well, he might be like, I've had enough, right?

I'm out of ideas. Well, maybe. But that's kind of the job is to get investors excited about where you're going. And we haven't really heard that. So what will new guy do then? What is his big idea? If you were run charts, let me ask that question again. What would you do there?

What's your big strategic move? I don't know that I'm prepared to dump the linear business. Yeah. I just don't. I think that I'm a little bit more in the Iger camp that Disney has a responsibility to at least try to be everything, be a broadcaster for the digital age and still offer adult programming, all audience programming, in addition to the family stuff. I think that they are smart in investing $60 billion in the parks and experiences.

The cruise business is insanely profitable for them. It is. And a best in class product. they have what Netflix would kill for. They have the brand identity that powers their entire flywheel. And they can do that in a way that Netflix wishes it could. So I would lean into that. And I would lean into the things that make Disney Disney. And what about the Apple idea of them being bought by Apple? First of all, I wish that doesn't happen because I think that Disney is like the one Hollywood

company that can determine its own destiny. Possibly, yeah. If Apple buys Disney, it's pretty much over, right? There will be no Hollywood companies, Hollywood studios, not owned by outside interests. Right. If that happened. And I just don't, I mean, Apple's content aspirations are still a mystery to me. I just don't think Apple wants to be in the theme park business.

Do you? No, they don't. No, I think Apple just is sort of here. And they're sort of, they put out a good show or two. It's a brand halo. They'll do a severance, which is great. I feel like just Tim wants to go to the Oscars. You think that's it?

I think they do think there's a business there. I think it'll help with their other things. I think just the way, the same thing with Amazon. Let's move then to Amazon. We haven't mentioned them. They're a company that is also very involved in some of this stuff. And from my perspective, I think it's about something else. So you're just there to sell things.

And the same thing I felt with Apple. I just didn't understand why they thought, I just, they're not interested. At least Amazon is trying to turn it into a real business. business and is trying to get a real audience there. They have a football deal. They are doing broader, more all-audience content. They're doing movies. They're about to come out with Project Hail Mary, which is getting killer. It's an attempt at a big clockbuster. It's getting great. And they're putting it in theaters. Where they're putting their movies in theaters, which everyone except Netflix argues is the best way to create a brand around a movie. Although Netflix's in Apple,

Apple, is not putting their movies in theaters. No, but you said your, your colleagues, Scott Mendelso, writes that the closest thing to a franchise-free, one-and-done global blockbuster that Hollywood hasn't attempted since 10 in 20. 20. And I think it's going to work. Is it Amazon's Hail Mary? Do they need it? Does it matter? Well, Amazon doesn't need anything in Hollywood. If they shut the entire operation down tomorrow, I think they would recover pretty quickly. But on the terms that they have set for themselves, where they have said, we are going to double down on movies, not only going to make them, we're going to make them at big budgets with big stars and put them in theaters. This is the Hail Mary year for Amazon because Courtney Valente, who runs that studio,

she came from Warner Brothers. This is her slate, finally. And these movies coming out this year, they have a He-Man movie that I'm sure you're very excited about. They have a- My taste in movies is a little like David Ellison's, kind of cheap and dirty. Like, Well, then you'll love the He-Man movie. Greenland One, Greenland Two, Maverick. That's my taste. Yeah, but I bet you'll like Project Hail Mary, too. I bet I will. I will. I will. I will. want to see it. So, but let's go back to you, where do you think Amazon fits in this? I think they're an important buyer now. They're a firmament of the Hollywood establishment now. They are doing shows. They are doing movies. They are doing just as many, if not more,

than anyone except Netflix. Right. So stack rank those, the buyers right now very quickly. Netflix is the biggest buyer in terms of original content. Or where people want to go. Well, that's slightly different because if you're a filmmaker, you don't. don't want to go to Netflix because they will not give your movie a theatrical release. If you're a filmmaker, I think probably Universal is the number one studio. Donna Langley, the elegant. She's fantastic. They can take care of your movie.

They have a fantastic marketing department. And the number of the top filmmakers, you know, this year they have a Chris Nolan movie. They have a Spielberg movie. They have a Jordan Peel movie coming next year. They're really cultivating these filmmakers as brands. And then Warner Brothers has really stepped up and tried to do that as well under their regime right now. They have Ryan Coogler doing sinners and one battle after another. And they have a number of other films.

They have a Tom Cruise movie later this year with Alejandro Iner Ritu directing. Does that change with the Ellison? So people are like, oh, I'm not hanging out with these people. I don't think so. I think people are willing to separate. You know, it's like people worked for Rupert for many years. That is true. And Cameron worked for Rupert.

And Rupert was smart enough to, to, to, there was a dichotomy between the Fox News operation in New York and the studio in L.A. And he was smart about it. He did not let one contaminate the other. Right. And it's very contaminated. And I think the Ellison's, if they are smart, they will do the same. It's just a matter of whether the situation at CNN and CBS blows up. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. If it becomes something that movie stars get asked about on the red carpet, like, why are you working with this network when they're doing this?

That, then it becomes uncomfortable. But ultimately, people want to sell their projects. Right. And get them out there. We'll be back in a minute. Support for On with Carous Swisher comes from the Freedom from Religion Foundation. The First Amendment exists so no one gets to hard code their beliefs into law. So when the government tries to enforce religion, that's not morality.

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Text fees may apply. So let's finish. I'll be talking about this existential dread that you talked about, this megaphone on the Titanic. I mean, including legacy media and I'm including Hollywood under the broad umbrella, it's facing a crisis at the same, you know, you have YouTube and Netflix the most dominant forces in watching. Like my kids, YouTube is television to them, like period. Even if you combine Disney Plus and Hulu, they're still in. third future warmer mount would still lag behind. What is the path here for those legacy media

companies if you want to lump them, even though some of them are now owned by Amazon, owned by the Ellison's? Well, there's one to sell, which is what MGM did and what Warner's did here. Then there's the consolidation element where you can start to try to buy up other little things and try and get more scale, which we are also seeing in the business. And then I think there is the do we have enough question, which I think Disney has asked. And I think Disney has answered it with, yes, we do have enough to compete. And then what do you do? You have to really maximize your assets, lean in where you have strengths, maybe cut areas where you have weaknesses, and try to stake out some kind of real estate in the streaming ecosystem. Are you going to be one of the four services?

And there can only be four, right? Well, there could, I mean, we think ultimately three or four services. To be. Yeah, you have different ones. Yeah. Or do you try to do something like Tooby, where they're not trying to ultimately compete with Netflix. They're trying to have a business. And it's a very specific business in free ad-supported TV.

And they're owned by Fox. So they have a provider of content. And that can be a business. Just like Sony has carved out a business for themselves, Sony Pictures, where they are not trying to have a platform that appeals to everyone. They sell to everyone. And they've been very successful selling product. They got $7 billion out of Netflix for their pay one output deal for their library.

Make some good stuff. And then take the stuff you have that's good and sell up, but also make some new stuff. And they are making, and that's valuable. Netflix is the first place you will see Spider-Man after it's in theaters. Netflix is the first place you saw anyone but you. or where you'll see, you know, the Spider-Verse movies. Because Netflix places value on that, Sony can throw in the rest of its library

and get billions of dollars for this. So the other existential risk, obviously, working in the background for actual workers who make films and television series, the writers, the crew members, maybe even actors, as AI, of course. Big topic, you're always asked about it. I'm always asked about it. Netflix just bought Ben Affleck's startup, interpositive.

It makes AI-powered tools for filmmakers. Seems like a good idea. Tools is a great idea. Yeah, that's very different than... I agree. I know what he's doing. It's basically just a tool for your dailies to help you complete the movie in a more efficient manner. It's like doing a better email, you know, write this email for me, essentially. Yes. But it also gives Netflix a little bit of cover to do other stuff, which I think they are doing. Such as, which is...

Such as, you know, integrating AI into their visual effects processes or their animation processes or even And, you know, there's storyboarding and all these other things where humans currently do that stuff. But most of these studios believe that five to seven years from now, all of that will be automated and the cost will come down on these movies. Yeah, I give the example of costumes. Why not just put a costume on Scarlett Johansson that doesn't exist and just keep doing it? Like, why do costume fittings? Why do everything? So what is the effect on creatives of Hollywood? Is this contraction? How do you look at it when people? I'm sure everyone asks you, what am I going to do? And they're mostly worried about AI slop. And you just did a whole episode on this with Bloomberg Lucas Shaw. So give us a quick synopsis.

It is the number one thing people care about in Hollywood is, is my job going to be eliminated? And the answer, sadly, for a lot of people, is yes. That a lot of these things like production design and costuming and storyboarding and visual effects, those will absolutely be influenced, if not replaced by AI. eventually. Now, there are union protections that protects some of these people and the above the line guilds have been at least somewhat effective in saying, okay, if you want to use AI to write a script, fine, but there will be a human attached to that project who will ultimately be the credited writer who must be paid like a union represented writer. And the same for directors and actors.

It's the other stuff that I think is going to be much more impacted, like anima. like people who are, you know, sound designers. Things like, there will still be humans involved, but there will be fewer of them. That's how Jim Cameron talks about it. It's like, yeah, AI is going to come in, but it's going to help make a movie that takes four years, take two years.

Same thing with medicine. Right. It's a drug that takes four years, two months. And the way Cameron characterized it is, no, it's not going to eliminate jobs. It's going to allow us to do more. And that's a nice, optimistic way, of thinking about it, but ultimately, people who have to spend four years on a movie are

employed for four years. Right. Where is that second movie coming from after two years? Right. Maybe it's out there and maybe we will be able to produce more or maybe we won't and it will just be that the entire industry contracts to these two-year jobs. What about the actors and AI slop in general? Yeah.

I mean, the actors union is trying to protect that stuff. You cannot use a SAG-A-A-A-A-A-A-I program like that. And there are rights, there are right of publicity rights in most states, including California, where you have the right. That whole Brad Pitt fighting Tom Cruise video that was on Seed Dance, that is not allowed. And they took that down because you do have rights to your own name, image, and likeness. Although YouTube did that, and then they dominated. Like, that was the beginning of YouTube, those fights,

of Philippe Dauman and Eric Schmidt. Yeah. And most of these, most of these AI companies have taken the position that we will ask for forgiveness rather than ask for permission. So it's going to be whack-a-mole. And hopefully there will be some court decisions that will come down on the side of content owners that will allow them to protect this stuff before it gets into the ethos. Who's the most important AI company in this right now, then?

I would say Google. because, you know, the whole reason that Disney did that open AI deal, other than experimenting, but it was to put pressure on Gemini and on Google because they have not come to the table and tried to work out a deal. And Disney very much wants Google to pay them and to work out some kind of deal. They're going to use characters. So, you know, we'll see. And keep in mind also, when Disney did this open day I deal, the one thing they weren't able to license, are voices. Right.

And the images of the actors that play these characters. So if you look, it's Luke Skywalker, but it's the animated Luke Skywalker. It's Homer Simpson, but Homer doesn't talk. Right. So it's not a full experience without getting the intellectual property rights

of the humans that are associated with these characters. Which they'll have to pay for. Yes. Or you do a James Earl Jones deal. James Earl Jones, before he died, he licensed his voice to an AI company that will work with his estate and pay his relatives. What effect does it have then on storytelling and creativity? I mean, what occurs in that environment?

Well, the thinking is that the innovation in this area is going to come from outside Hollywood because of the limitations on the rights to use these IPs and these actors, that the real benefits are going to accrue to these outside companies that are just, doing it on their own. I'm not so sure about that because, you know, what were we talking about from Seed Dance? We weren't talking about any of the AI videos that they generated. We were talking about the Tom Cruise Brad Pitt video. There is value in things that we know and can associate with entertainment. Maybe they'll create their own stars. Maybe there will be the AI, Tom Cruise. Yeah, they're trying. They're trying. I know. I don't say the

Tilly Norwood. No, there's just something wrong with it. That is silly. Someone just sent me an AI version of myself for a speech I'm giving and it was the wrong glass. It doesn't look like, take this the fuck down. Like, don't put my face on it. Yeah.

And obviously all that's going to get better and there will be, you will be able to replicate. And I've seen some things online like that AI Pierce Morgan looked pretty real. It did. But you know what? Like, I think that there is something about human creativity and the human touch on actors that at least for a while. Act just actors, writers. The two big movies this year were sinners and weapons.

Very dependent on their two creators. And not something that AI would have created. Because AI is a mean. It just boils stuff down based on what we've seen before. I would see it like make more West wings. That's fine.

I did that. So I interviewed Aaron Sorkin at an event in D.C. And I put, I asked Chatsy BT to create a West Wing script based on something that was going on in the Trump White House. And I read him some dialogue. It was cringy. It was terrible.

He was like, he was so embarrassed. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we'll see where it goes. I have a couple more things where we go. One is, does politics really affect Hollywood right now? Obviously, Trump pretends to, I think it's the end of the era at this point. But you have FCC chairman Brandon Carrick, all the moron trying to meddle.

You've got Trump saying things, trying to attack. I think they're sort of run through their paces here and it's almost over. Do they care in Hollywood? They certainly have bent a knee a little bit. That's the expression people use. Yeah, there is a feeling that Hollywood is under attack by the Trump administration and that either via Brendan Carr or via the Trump people wielding the regulatory power that you have to bend the knee and you have to, you know, Bob Eager, I'm sure you've talked to him. He hates this stuff. He hates having to do this.

Almost all of them do. All of them do. Yeah. And it's just, it's embarrassing for them. And I feel like that that is kind of cast appall over the industry, that it's, you know, there was favorite status and there's not favorite status anymore. And in fact, the Trump people are actively trying to leverage and denigrate the industry, even little things like using Tropic Thunder. in a Iran war video. Yeah, people got pissed about that.

Everyone did. Everyone was pissed. Everyone they is. So let's finish up two things. The Academy Awards are on Sunday, so I can't let you go before we talk a tiny bit about the Oscars. Earlier this years, the Grammy Awards were full of overt anti-ice messages from the artist. The BAFTA awards were held later in February,

and the BBC's broadcast censored pro-Palestinian remarks made by an award winner. But I should mention they aired the N-word. Turet-Sindrum campaigner John Davidson was in the audience promoting a documentary about the disability. He had unfortunate vocal outburst. The BBC apologized for that oversight. Talk about the Oscars very quickly. Will politics be front and center? There shouldn't be a lot of Trump jokes would be, my guess.

You know, the last couple of years, there haven't been as many Trump jokes. Certainly not like there were in 2017 and 2018. I think the industry kind of recognized and they were kind of trying not to enrage and poke the bear a little bit. But the ice stuff, I think, this past year, I think it will certainly be front and center. But it's not Kimmel. It's Conan. It's Conan. Yeah. Conan is not as political. And they picked him for that reason because they don't want to turn. You know, they, I've always argued that the politics stuff is, is not in the best interest. I agree. I agree. People tune it out. Have you ever watched one of these award shows with your more conservative relatives? Yes, I have. I have. They turn it off. They don't want to be lectured to. But it's okay at the Grammys. I feel like. The Grammys are, are.

Our musicians, like, they're supposed to be outrageous. And that's kind of fun. Although, you know, obviously, you know, when Ted Sarandos was in D.C. for the hearing, all of a sudden it turned into Ted Cruz talking about what Billy Elish said at the Grammys. And it's like, that didn't even air on Netflix. I know. But you know what? He's a moron.

Another moron. He's never, you're never going to be president, Ted, just so you know. Because nobody likes you. I think, honestly, the themes of this year's two big contenders, sinners, which is about kind of the stolen black identity and... Great movie, too. And one battle after another, which is basically about an Antifa-type organization

in the aftermath of that. I think because of that, you might see a little bit more of that, at least subtly from the winners. I don't think Ryan Coogler or Paul Thomas Anderson are the kinds to get up and start lecturing, but there will be a little bit. They'll make a remark or two.

It'll be a woman who does it in case you're interested. So let's do a quick lightning round. Who do you predict will win best actors? This is the race of the year. Yeah. I'm going with Chalameh. I'm going with Jordan. You are?

Why is that? Because of the online backlash to him saying that ballet and opera are not cool anymore? No, I don't really care about ballet. Okay. No, but people think that Timmy lost the Oscar because he made disparaging comments about opera.

I don't really care about. But voting had basically closed. You think the sinner's momentum is going to propel Michael B. Jordan? I just think he's the best. I think he deserves it, and it's for his body of work. He's just, he's a star. You know it never,

The body of work never matters. Sometimes it does. In this case, it's a great movie. And people remember it. People, you know, for the last one they just did, people remembering what a great movie it was. Yeah, I would love it. And Michael B. Jordan, it's great. I have seen sinners several times.

I've never seen Timote. I just don't want to look at him. I'm just don't want to look at him. I just don't want to look at him. He looks like a lesbian. He looks like someone I dated in the 1980s. Oh, my God. Really?

Anyway, yeah. Okay. Very pretty guy. Best actress. Jesse Buckley. Buckley. Buckley. Do you see him,

I can't see him, I can't see it because dead children. I can't do it. It's tough, but it's rewarding. It's rewarding. I love her period, even though I'm sorry about the bride, but I've always loved her. I think she's great. And everybody seems to think she's the best one there.

The only stunner would be Rose Byrne for if I had legs, I'd kick you. I love her. But Jesse Buckley has won everything. Jesse Buckley's overwhelmingly the odds on favorite. Best original screenplay? I think it's going to be sinners. That's a shoe-in. Yeah, he's amazing.

We at least know Coogler will have one moment on stage because even if he doesn't win director of picture, he'll win screenplay. All right. Director? Paul Thomas Anderson. Okay. He's won all of the precursor awards. All right. I just feel like Coogler.

I love, that's who I want to get. Yeah. You know, don't forget, the Academy has a big international branch. Oh, yeah. And the international voters, he's just been around a longer time. I know. And it's one of those where people feel like. like it's his time.

Do the Oscars matter anymore? Does it matter for the business or what? For the business, it certainly matters. Declining, declining viewership, declining, declining, declining. Do they matter for the business? Why? They do. And they matter because of the streaming wars.

The box office of these movies is not really impacted that much by the Oscars like used to be where you platform release and all of a sudden a movie that got a best picture nomination would gross $300 million by the time of the show. That doesn't happen. anymore. But the value of these titles in a sea of tiles on a streaming service. Differentiation. It is a differentiator. And Netflix and Amazon and Apple and Disney, they all see huge value in having an Oscar winner on the platform. And there's lots more awards now, too. Those matter too. Yeah, all the precursors. And it's a season. It's a great promotion. It's a way to

lure talent. The reason Netflix spends so much on their campaigns is because they know they have, have to win people over because they don't offer theaters. So they say, you know what, we may not offer you the chance to gross $100 million, but we're going to treat Frankenstein like it's the most special movie that you've ever made. We're going to have screenings for all the academy members, all the festivals, and we're going to spend $20 million to get you an Oscar nomination. And they did. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's true. So I'm still not going. Sorry. Someday. If I promised you that Cruz would be there and that you could meet him, would you come with me? Yes. If I could meet him, really, not just like we run into him and like we chase

him around. I'm not doing that. I'm over-chasing any celebrity around. Okay. That's my new goal. Let me just tell you, I like to wear soft pants. And so it would take a lot to not get me in soft pants. I'm just telling you. By the way, I'm about to be a TV star, you know, just with my TV show. Caros Wisher wants to live forever on CNN. And then I shall depart CNN. Good bye. But are you going to, what kind of clothes are you going to wear on your show? You'll see my My outfits. Not formal wear. No, very comfortable.

It's going to be great. It's coming out. What did you wear to the Manity Fair Party? You didn't wear a dress? No. I didn't. I just didn't dress up. I couldn't do it.

I'm sorry. No one cares what I look like. I just look at people and go up to them and talk to them. Well, I love it that I just have to wear a tuxedo. It's very easy. Oh, well, that you look good in that. I just can't do it. And I don't want to wear a tuxia because how lesbian is that?

Anyway, last question. You've said you'd make a lot more money if you left Puck and went independent. I told you that. You and I, just, for disclosure, he and I talk about the business of being independent journalists all the time. When the 27 Oscars roll around, will you still be at Puck or why or why not? Talk a little bit about this, because you did very kindly say you want to be like me someday, but you already are like me someday. I don't have a CNN show. And I do make a lot more money than you, Matt.

I know this. But talk about what it's like to be an independent journalist. I mean, I was very touched when you said that. But how do you feel about doing what you're doing? because you and I have both come up in traditional, you know, whether you were at wherever you were, and I was at the Washington Post and the Wall Street Journal, and I didn't work for the New York Times,

but I wrote for them. Talk a little bit about where we are right now as media, because you have more influence than almost anybody, I think anybody in this thing. So how do you look at this moment? How do you think about it as someone who's doing independent media, which is growing in impact and influence and finances? I do really well.

And I think you do too. The way I describe it to people who ask me about this, and they ask a lot, is if you are providing more value to the media brand that you work for, then the media brand is providing to you, then you should probably leave and go independent and leverage the fact that you are the brand. Right. And I was sort of dumb. I didn't really recognize that until I started out and started doing my newsletter. And maybe I, you know, I created a product that people like and I made it more of an impact when I was independent. But I had a lot of cachet, more cachet than I thought when I launched Puck. People called me back. They returned my emails. They invited me to things. I had 20 years of

relationships in this world that allowed me to go out and do this thing on my own. And I don't want to downplay the role that Puck played. It's sort of a hybrid. Yeah, I was our first author and I kind of planted the flag of what the brand would be. But Puck has provided a lot of services. That's how I feel about Vox. Yeah, they provide editing. They provide the platform. They provide marketing. They help me put on events. That you don't want to do. That stuff I don't want to do. And I've done it. I used to joke that my day was consumed by meetings at HulliD Reporter. And that's what you have to do when you're running a media outlet. Now I actively say, do I need to be in this meeting? And the answer is almost always no. And I'm really able to focus on the product.

And that's where I think I can make a big impact. Yeah. You just called the product like the McDonald's C. You know, but go ahead. I know. Trust me. If you watch me eating a burger, it's a lot more authentic than that guy. Yeah. But you know what I mean? It's totally doable. for a certain type of reporter, editor, especially if you have something to say. Like, you have to ask yourself, like, do I have, do I have a perspective? Do I have a point of view on things? And most people don't.

It's also based in reporting. One of the best things that I ever heard from an editor was Tina Brown, where she said, I can teach people to write, but I can't teach them to see. You know, and she met reporting. And I thought that was exactly right. You can't teach people. And sometimes I don't even recognize it. I'll do a newsletter that I don't think is particularly incisive.

And people will respond. They'll be like, wow, I hadn't thought of that. So, like, if you do this long enough, it sort of just comes out of you. And that's really where the podcast is where the town came from because we were like, what are people in town talking about and how do we reflect that in a show that would be authentic? All right. Very, very last question. What's the most interesting story going to be in 2027 in Hollywood?

It would go, well, the end of the next year, over the next year. If you were, like, what's the one that intrigues you the very most? I know I get Warner Mounds interesting, but honestly, they're just going to lose a lot of money. Do you think Rupert's going to die in a year? I think he's never going to die. Okay. So that's off the table. Yes.

Okay, that's a great one. What happens when Rupert dies? Yep. Because I think that the Murdoch Empire is going to change significantly. Yes. I think that the newspapers will either be sold or carved up. or, you know, what's going to happen to the Fox Broadcasting. All of that stuff is in play.

You know, the succession battle is over, but when Rupert's gone, I think all bets are off. All right. And who's the most important player, right? If you had to pick one right now going forward, if you say that person is critical. I think, two, Josh Tomorrow and David Ellis, in terms of what they're going to do.

They've got the most choices to make. Right. And choices are what it's all about. What you choose to do and don't do, the bets you make, the transformative deals that you okay, all of that. And who's going to be more successful? Do you want to make a bet? Oh, God.

I don't know. I want them both to be successful for the benefit of the industry. Oh, nice. But you know what? In terms of track record, obviously, DeMorrow has a track record of success in the Parks Division at Disney and we'll see how he does atop the whole thing. Yeah. David Ellison doesn't have as much experience.

He ran a smallish production company and is now running to studios. So we'll see how that goes. But we'll see. He's got a lot of smart people around him. Well, we'll see who stays around. Like, we'll see who comes around and stuff like that. I always go with a person who didn't get their job by being born in any, in any industry, except for Rupert Murdoch. Yeah.

But he took a small operation and made a huge global. Yeah. Same with Brian Roberts at Comcast. Yeah. Same with Sumner Redstone. You know, you took a small theater company. Yeah, but I don't think, I don't love, you know, people being born and getting a job. I don't love it.

I don't love it. Never love it. Well, we certainly wouldn't be talking about David Ellison as the, you know, second most powerful person in Hollywood if he wasn't born who he was. But you know what? It is what it is. Yep. And here we are. All right, Matt, this has been so fascinating. You are a wonderful journalist.

You really are. And I put that first and foremost. Well, I appreciate it. You know I'm a fan. You're a snarky person, which I love. But, and I love that part. But at your heart, you're an excellent reporter. And that's the critical part, everybody, just for just so you know, for both of us is snarky and obnoxious.

Yeah, snark doesn't sell. No one subscribes to snark. They like it. They do like it. It's got, my point, you always got to have everything. You got to be entertaining. You got to be newsy. You got to have reporting.

And you got to have smart perspective. Yep, absolutely. And you have all that. Anyway, thank you so much. This was really fun. I really was looking forward to it. Thank you so much. Oscars 27, you and me.

Okay, all right. You get it going. All right. Okay. Thank you, Matt. Today's show was produced by Christian Castro Roussel, Michelle Alloy, Catherine Millsop, Megan Bernie, and Kalyn Lynch. Nishat Kerwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts.

Special thanks to Madeline LaPlante, Doobie, and Corinne Ruff. This episode was engineered by Aaliyah Jackson-Perez, and our theme music is by Tracademics. If you're following the show, you get to run CBS News. If not, you're a Nepo mogul. Go wherever you listen to a podcast, search for On with Kara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On With Caraswisher from Podium Media, New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us.

We'll be back on Monday with more.