On with Kara Swisher - Michelle Buteau on Comedy, Community and Calling Out Dave Chappelle

Episode Date: March 31, 2025

Comedian Michelle Buteau is a true mutli-hyphenate — actor, standup comic, TV host, podcaster, and executive producer — and she wouldn’t have it any other way. Kara spoke to Buteau about the season 2 launch of “Survival of the Thickest,” a Netflix series loosely based on her 2020 memoir, and how she’s using her life stories to push the boundaries of representation. They also talked about Buteau’s 20-year stand up career, how she became the first woman to record a special in Radio City Music Hall (“A Buteau-ful Mind”), why she stands by calling out Dave Chappelle for his transgender jokes, and how she wants to use her producing prowess to uplift more marginalized voices, despite the current political climate. Questions? Comments? Email us at [e-mail] or find us on Instagram, TikTok, and Bluesky @onwithkaraswisher. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You know, it's okay for you to swear on this podcast. I hope you're not worried about that. Thank fucking God. Hi everyone from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. This is On with Kara Swisher and I'm Kara Swisher. My guest today is Michelle Buteau, the multi-hyphenate comedian, writer, actor, and producer, and one of my favorites. Last year she made history as the first female comic to record a stand-up special at Radio City Music Hall, A Beautiful Mind. Her second special for Netflix, and she starred in the movie Babes with Alana Glazer.

Butoh's comedy has been described as dynamic, conversational, and big-hearted. I just think she makes me feel good, and I think comics right now are doing some of the most trenchant analysis of what's happening from a variety of different viewpoints. Not always things I agree with, but I'm really enjoying how much comics are really contributing to the conversation now, especially compared to a lot of people, including our politicians. The second season of our Netflix series, Survival of the Thickest, came out last week, the same day we talked. The show is loosely based on Butoh's memoir,

Personal Essays, which she published back in 2020. It's about the size-inclusive stylist who wants to change the fashion industry and not just for big girls. And she surrounds herself with friends, including friends in the transgender community that help her do that. I think it's a wonderful show.

There's a series of shows right now that have a lot of political elements that aren't so obvious, but actually are about joy and friendship and community. I think it's just what we need around this time because they're not also not silly and stupid. They're actually quite substantive. And this is one of those shows and it does make you feel better because everything Michelle does tends to do that. I want to talk with Michelle about her decades long career and how she thinks about representation in our work, the current political agenda that's set on dehumanizing people and what

she's manifesting for the future. By the way, if you want to see someone I think is extremely funny and you're in New York on Monday, April 7th, join me for a live taping of On with Kara Swisher with comedian Josh Johnson of The Daily Show, one of my favorites and one of my son Louie's favorites, absolutely. The event is at Cooper Union's Great Hall and it's free, but you do have to get tickets. Search for Cooper Union and Kara Swisher online to register. Okay, now let's get to Michelle Butoh. Our expert question today comes from her babe's co-star and good friend, Ilana Glazer. It's gonna be fun and thought provoking, so stick around. ["It Is On!" by The Bachelorette plays over the music playing over the headphones.] Have you noticed that headlights seem brighter these days?

It's more than just a nuisance for some people. Those headlights and other LED lights knocked me out of being a teacher. I just, I couldn't get to work anymore without suffering these impacts, these neurological, psychological impacts. The dark side of those gleaming headlights. That's this week on Explain It To Me. Listen every Sunday morning, wherever you get your podcasts. I can't prove and neither can anyone else that a computer is alive or not or conscious or not or whatever.

I mean, all that stuff is always going to be a matter of faith. But what I can say is that this emphasis on trying to make the models seem like they're freestanding new entities does blind us to some ways we could make them better. So how can we make artificial intelligence better? That's this week on the gray area, new episodes every Monday. Hey there, this is Peter Kafka, the host of Channels, a podcast about tech and media and what happens when they collide. And this week we're talking about the symbiosis, the codependency between big time sports and

big TV. And what's going to happen to that equation as the TV industry gets smaller and smaller and smaller? On to explain it all is the veteran sports business journalist, John Oran. That's this week on channels from the Box Media Podcast Network. Michelle Buto, welcome. Thanks for being on On. I hear you were just in Australia filming your next movie. I was there too just recently. How was the trip? The trip was long. I felt like I was in a spaceship for a whole next movie. I was there too, just recently. How was the trip?

The trip was long. I felt like I was in a spaceship for a whole day and then I was in the future and I didn't know who I was and everyone kept telling me. Tomorrow. We have this wonderful thing called avocado toast. I'm like, yeah, I heard of it. Where do you guys live? Australia is interesting.

And the running joke is that they're all convicts. I'm like, you guys got to come up with another joke. Yeah, they're not all convicts, by the way. And they tell you they're not the convict people. Yes, they're very particular about, we're not the convict people. I'm like, I feel like those are people who are dead, so I don't have a judgment going on there. What were you doing there?

Talk a little bit about the trip. It's beautiful. I was filming a movie called Spa Weekend, written and directed by John Lucas and Scott Moore, who also did Bad Moms. And I was filming with Leslie Mann, Isla Fisher and Anna Ferris. Wow. And me. That's a gang.

It was amazing. So it's a ladies. It's like White Lotus, right? But funny, essentially. You know, but funny. Yes. Yeah. It was a time.

It was a masterclass. It was beautiful. I was pinching myself. I was like in my body and outside of my body. It was amazing. It was really amazing. And what I love about, I mean, I've been doing this for like 25 years, right? I've been doing this since Taylor Swift had curly hair. That's how long I've been doing this. And to still do things that I am excited about, it feels like I'm starting all over again. It's like the first day of school is like really dope.

Yeah. Well, that's fantastic. So you've been really busy for people to understand. We're recording this on the same day that season two of your Netflix show, which I love, survival of the thickest premieres. Congratulations. I think it's a wonderful. Thank you.

Did you watch it? Yes. I watched the first season and then they sent me early things. There's a series of series happening right now. Running Point is another one that I think are just lovely to watch and they're fun and interesting and feature women, different, different. But the series is based on your book of personal essays that came out in 2020. Can you explain the show?

You're Mavis Beaumont, an up and coming stylist. Talk to me a little bit about the show and how you conceived it. Yeah, for sure. It's so interesting that you mentioned Running Point because also co-created by Mindy Kaelin. So like when you have women of color in positions of power, you know, to call the shots and to really, you know, as we say, put their foot in it

and create something delicious, then it's only going to sing. And so that's why diversity matters. That's why, you know, when you have a table, make sure that everybody gets a seat, but come to that table some manners. Okay? Not Mindy. I'm just, you know, throwing strays to people who don't have manners.

But you know, and that's the beautiful thing about working with Netflix too. It's like such an international platform. It isn't like the old school networks where you really have to fit a circle in a square. And it's just like my wife and kids and, you know, it's just giving. We subscribe to two genders. It's like, no, life is wild and beautiful and we have vocabulary to like describe our feelings and, you know, our journeys in a way we never had before. And I love that Netflix is like, the more you do you, the more specific you are,

the better it is. So I love that you said running point, because one of my writer producers, Grace Edwards, who's amazing on my show, also worked on that show. And I'm just like, -♪ I love women of color. -♪ So, I have been doing stand- for a long time and most stand up queens will tell you, I want to write a book.

We don't know about what we just like feel like it's on the list. Like you want to go to the Montreal festival. You want to do late night. You want to do a special, you want to do a half hour special, an hour special with like a maroon curtain behind you. And like, you know, just looking up at the crowd and waving and being like, just wearing like a black suit, you know, like, yeah, there's a journey. There's a journey, right. And there's like a list that everybody, you know, just looking up at the crowd and waving and just wearing like a black suit, you know, like. Yeah, there's a journey.

There's a journey, right? And there's like a list that everybody, but anyways, I want to write a book. I met a book agent, Robert Gunzler, who's working with Phoebe Robinson and Gina Asheray. And I didn't understand what the idea was. I just was like, I have buckets of personality. I want to do something.

And this is so long ago. And then I started my IVF journey and I'm like, I'm busy. I don't have time to do this. And I was doing morning TV on VH1. And he kept checking in. He's like, what's the book? What's the book? At this point, I'm like 2016, 17, 18, I'm like, I don't have time to write a book.

Plus like, who's going to read it? And so I got into this like, this, I guess it would be like imposter syndrome or something. I don't know what to call it, but I was doing that thing where I was telling myself no before like other people told me no. And I was like, I don't, what's the point? Which is so, like, I think that's part of the process and you should feel that, but like you gotta-

A lot of people do that. You gotta try, you know what I mean? You gotta try, it doesn't have to be perfect, it just has to be done. And then when I finally was over this IVF journey and brought my twins home, I'm in the hospital, I'm like, I think I have time to write a book now that I have twins at home. What was I thinking?

Right. So I signed on. I tried and I couldn't really get anything together, and I didn't know what I wanted to share, and I was either sharing too much or not enough. I'm like, is this funny? Is this too emotional, too sincere? What's my place? What's my voice on paper? But I had all these stories like through podcasting or storytelling shows that didn't fit into straight up stand-up that I was like, these stories mean something and they're wild, but where do they go? And Phoebe Robinson gave me a great piece of advice

when she was writing her book that she told me, and she didn't make it up, but someone told her, write like everyone you know is dead. I don't know, that worked for me. I was able to sort of get over my writer's block and just spaghetti theory that shit. How did it move into the show? Because you're not a stylist. Yeah, I mean, I was just like, get it done.

I don't know who's gonna read it and who cares, you know? What I didn't realize is that, like, a lot of people were waiting for a lot of IP from me. Because I was pitching a lot of stuff, I was writing a lot of stuff, but I realized that I wasn't writing it in my voice. I was writing stuff for what I thought people wanted, and that's why I wasn't able to sell any of it. So when Kristen Zollner,

an amazing executive that was at Netflix and now she's moved on to other stuff, she read it and she was like, this has to be a show. This is even the name of the show. I couldn't have imagined that that's how a show would get done. Because I thought you do like a really strong stand-up set on Fallon, you know, a la Roseanne Barr or Ellen, you know, and that's how you get your show or you just keep pitching and writing or you go to a festival. But it's like, no, pouring your heart and soul out in a bunch of essays about anything.

You started your career in journalism and after 9-11 decided to pursue comedy. Explain to me what you're doing in this particular show. Is it, this is you, this character, but it happens to be a stylist. What's the sort of main themes from your perspective? I thought being a stylist was such a great parallel to stand-up comedy.

Having parents from the Caribbean, they work so hard to give you everything and a good education. And when I told my parents I was doing stand-up, they're like, but you still have a job, right? They couldn't wrap their mind around it. And I could see Mavis' parents being like, people can dress themselves, what are you doing? And so there was that. And being a stylist is also one of these like great artistic jobs in New York where

You could make no money or make all the money You could be in a back alley styling someone or like in a penthouse like in two days It it's also one of those jobs much like comedy too where you have to fight you have to hustle You have to like listen to your inner voice, you know, intuitions, everything, you have to put yourself out there. And then also, I thought being a stylist was a great way to showcase the indiscrepancies in fashion. And, you know, and really, being a stylist is serving the stories where everybody deserves to feel loved on and that we don't have to live up to some unrealistic patriarchal standard of beauty. Like even though we don't see ourselves in those magazines, we can see ourselves within each other. And so I thought fashion was a

great way to do that too. And then honestly, being a stylist, I was like, she's got to wear really cute clothes, guys. We need a budget for the clothes. Yeah, that's funny. But what were you gonna do in journalism? What was your thought of why you wanted to do that? Oh my goodness. I really wanted to be an entertainment reporter. I wanted to be Mary Hart, John Tesh, and want to wear a statement lip and have some shoulder

pads and give you the news for a half hour after dinner. And that's what I really wanted to do. Because my mom and I loved reading The Inquirer and just having tea time. And I went to school in Miami for TV production. And I remember we were going around the class and my professor was like, what do you guys want to do with this degree? And I said, entertainment journalism and entertainment reporter. And he said, well, you're just simply too fat

to be on camera. And I was so, I was so, I was so young, I was like 18 or 19. And I was taught to like respect my elders and not question people. Right. And so while I was like kind of embarrassed, I was also like, he's right. I don't see myself anywhere on TV. So I guess that's true and sort of accepted it and went into production. So I'm like, well, at least I still get to be a part of the process. Right. Right.

But even editing people and field producing, I was so tired of telling basic people how to have fun. I'm like, where's your joy, bitch? Find it. Why are you here? But speaking about your childhood, in your book, you write about watching TV as a kid and not seeing anyone, as you said, with your body shape.

It happened way before that. You made the show, I think you were missing back then, in a lot of ways, despite the title Survival the Thickest. It's more than about survival. It's obviously a pun on Survival the Thickest. But it's about the joy of being the thickestest and using thickest as a positive term, right? Yes. For people who haven't seen it.

Can you describe a scene where you feel like you really nailed that joy, or is it a more general vibe what you do and don't say? I think it's more of a general vibe. There's at no point where my character doesn't think she's sexy or worthy of love. You know, and I feel like, let's lead by example, you know, it's funny because in the pilot, when my character gets cheated on, she tells her best friend Khalil, like, how dare he leave me for like a skinny version of me? And a lot of people were like, uh-oh, here we go.

Another big girl feeling sorry for herself is like, no, like, she's sorry that this happened. And she's just stating what happened, but at no point does she think that her size is not beautiful. And that is the main takeaway. Please. I think that that is interesting because you do exude that. Like, I look great,

I look sexy. Even the first scene with your boyfriend in the back when you're looking at clothes is like that. Yeah. Which I was noticing. I was like, huh, you don't see that. It's usually the center of the topic. I'm so tired of that. I am too. But all the body positivity has been a thing for a while. But in the past year or so, obviously, and part of my next book is about some of these drugs around weight loss, around psychedelics, a whole bunch of

stuff about future tech. But no spoilers, but I did catch a hint of diss in season two when your characters say, look out Oprah Gayle on the side of Ozempic. Did you ever want to use these things in the plot? Because it's called Survival, the Thickest, and there are body issues in it, although it's not the center of the plot, which I really appreciated. Because again, it could have gone that way. Yeah, I think enough people are talking about it as Zempig. It was more just like a joke because it's so in the zeitgeist, you know what I mean?

But there's a lot of those little throwaways that like mean something, you know? Like deep in the season, I think it's like episode seven or eight, Mavis gets into it with a fashion designer who has decided to just design skinny bodies. And I remember one of my improv lines that I fought to keep in there was like, leave dressing skinny white women to Kanye, that's his thing. Everyone's like, oh, we don't know about that. I'm like, leave dressing skinny white women to Kanye. That's his thing. And everyone's like, oh, we don't know about that. I'm like, I do. Yeah, I do.

Leave it in there. You know, it says what it needs to say and we can move on. Perfect timing. Perfect timing now. I mean, he just continues to step in it. You know, we'll be back in a minute. Fox creative. it. This is advertiser content brought to you by the all new Nissan Murano. Okay, that email is done.

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Wow, this is so nice. Oops, that was my exit. Oh well, that's fine. I've got time. After the meeting, I gotta remember to schedule flights for our girls' trip. But that's for later. Sun on my skin, wind in my hair. I feel good.

Turn the music up. Your all-new Nissan Murano is more than just a tool to get you where you're going. It's a refuge from life's hustle and bustle. It's a place to relax, to reset, in the spaces between items on your to-do lists. Oh wait, I got a message. Could you pick up wine for dinner tonight? Yep, I'm on it. I mean, that's totally fine by me. Play Celebrity Memoir Book Club. I'm Claire Parker. And I'm Ashley Hamilton.

And this is Celebrity Memoir Book Club. Today Explained here with Eric Levitt, Senior Correspondent at Vox.com to talk about the 2024 election. That can't be right. Eric, I thought we were done with that. I feel like I'm Pacino in 3. Just when I thought I was out, they pulled me back in. Why are we talking about the 2024 election again?

The reason why we're still looking back is that it takes a while after an election to get all of the most high quality data on what exactly happened. So the full picture is starting to just come into view now. And you wrote a piece about the full picture for Vox recently, and it did bonkers business on the internet. What did it say?

What struck a chord? Yeah, so this was my interview with David Shore of Blue Rose Research. He's one of the biggest sort of democratic data gurus in the party. And basically, the big picture headline takeaways are on today explained, you'll have to go listen to them there. Find the show wherever you listen to shows, bro. The show is about flipping conversations about bodies, all shapes and sizes. You and Alana Glaser kind of did this last year with babes, which I love the movie. Oh, thank you for watching. No, I know I Oh, thank you for watching.

No, I know. I talked to Alana about it, but it's essentially about motherhood. But you push back against reviews that called it raunchy. It was a lot of discussion about body sex and bodily fluids and stuff like that. A lot of shows are starting to enter that with women very explicitly talking about it. And I guess in some weird way, Sex and the City did it, but they did it in a clean white lady way, I guess. I don't know what else to say. But yeah, fancy way.

Fancy way. Talk a little bit about that idea. I didn't think it was raunchy, but I could see why people did at the same time. If I could, you know, I try hard to be like, huh, why do they think that? Yeah, Alana and I were talking about this too. It's so crazy because we were just like, how is this raunchy when it's just the female truth? But we realized that females aren't allowed to say things.

Don't complain, don't talk about your body. Be sexy, not too sexy. Be smart, but not too smart. You know, have an opinion, but don't keep talking. And so it's just like, we're constantly figuring out how to take our space up, whether it's in a room or like on a subway. And I'm really kind of tired of it. Like, I'm not really kind of tired.

I'm actually exhausted. Like, I have been tap dancing for the patriarchy way too long, you know? And we keep talking about a boys club and this, that, and the third. I'm just like, what about the gays in the days? You know, getting back to the whole like, Mavis is not gonna apologize for being big

and being loved on. I have so much in common when I talk to gay men and they talk about like being in high school and the guys that like always really loved them but we were always a secret. And it's just like we're not a secret anymore. To say we're a secret is to say something's wrong with us. And I think also for women especially since like our bodies are under attack. Like we are literally fighting to make decisions about our own holes. Insane.

I can't. Oh my God, Mitch McConnell on his three chins. Let's just move on. I don't want to body shame his face, but look. But look. Yeah. And it's just like, I don't even feel comfortable having this conversation with my doctor.

What? That's crazy. And I am bending over backwards, killing myself to have health insurance, which is like a luxury in America. And when I even show up, I have to make my male doctor feel comfortable, which is what I love about those scenes that Alana and Josh wrote in Babes. It's like, even though we are in our most vulnerable positions, legs up, scoot down.

Why am I scooting down? Why is there even a chair? You know what I mean? I still have to make you and your hair transplant come to, it's like so insane. And so, you know, I do feel like arts, film, TV, music. Yeah, and change that. You know, you can move the needle.

It is culture. You can have a conversation. You know, it actually reminds me, it's interesting you talk the needle. It is culture. You can have a conversation. You know, it actually reminds me, it's interesting you talk about that. When I was pregnant, I have a female gynecologist and she was away and so someone had to check me at the very last parts of my pregnancy. And it was a guy, it was a guy, it was a male doctor. Some male doctors are great. I wouldn't impugn all male doctors.

But he did the checkup and he was rough, right? He was rough and he made me bleed right at the end of my pregnancy, right, when he was doing it. And I said, what in the actual fuck, like in the room? And he didn't say sorry. And of course you're demented at the end of your pregnancy because you think everything's going to go wrong, right? I know. So I said, you and your fucking man hands. And I go And I go, what? And I said, your manhands made me bleed. Do not have your manhands made me bleed. Never do that to a woman. And he was like,

shocked. And I was like, manhands. He goes, I don't have manhands. I go manhands. And this was like, it felt like a Larry David episode or something. But base is actually a story about friendship. There is a lot of wrong. There's not raunchy. It's that's not the right word. It's just explicit, I guess. And you talk about things women actually talk about. But you have a longstanding friendship with Alana. In your real life, you spent 20 years working in comedy before landing, you know, you're an overnight sensation after 20 years, before landing your first special. You were on the road with a lot of big-name comedians, Amy Schumer, Hannibal Baraz, Camille

Nunjani, who's a lovely guy, to name a few. How do these relationships affect you and did their work influence you? You write about a fellow comic stealing your stuff, which I think is common. It might've been Camille, actually, I don't know who it was. But I'm teasing you. Yeah, wait, can I just get back to manhands for two seconds?

Sure, sure. Because I wasn't able to carry so we had a surrogate. And so it felt so, I felt so outside of my body, like because surrogacy was illegal in New York. So we went to the closest state, which was Pennsylvania. These surrogates are like walking angels on earth. They are.

And I remember she had to go to another doctor at the end and she started to bleed, because he was rough. And she was carrying my twins and looked super tender. And so this took me back because I remember her crying on the phone. And I was just, it felt like someone just lit me up. I wanted to run to Pennsylvania at that point. Get him.

It was like a Costco-sized serving of road rage. Yeah. Just to, you know what I mean? And I feel like no matter what life and the universe is always telling me to share your space, share your heart, and defend people when they need it the most. And you know, if anything, being the only child and going to so many schools has taught me to collaborate well, listen to people, be a team player. It isn't all about me. We can work better together.

We're stronger together. Recognize when someone doesn't have your back and move on. Don't try to convince a bad person that you're a good person. Because I used to be like, no, no, no, we could do this. No, no, no, we could do this. I'm just like, why am I so upset? And so saying the man hands of it all, I was like, I mean, I really found my inner Karen. Yeah. You know? And then I stomped with Andy Cohen in New York to overturn gestational, um, circus-y. I didn't believe it.

I, when you just said it was illegal, I was like, what? Like, what are you talking about? And even the reasons that, cause we talked to a bunch of officials and even the reasons that they were talking about, like, but is it sex work? And it's just like, because we talked to a bunch of officials and even the reasons that they were talking about like, but is it sex work? And it's just like sex isn't even involved. Like why are you sexualizing everything? How come like alternative family planning is not a priority on your list? Everyone deserves love and this is like also the themes in my show. Everyone deserves love. It doesn't matter what they look like or how they identify. You know, it's called humanity bitch. Look at the fuck up.

Like what are we talking about? And so like, it was so crazy and beautiful and like, just, just heart wrenching meeting cancer survivors who were able to like, save their eggs because they want to, you know, they knew that they want to start a family and they knew that they were going to survive cancer. How are you to say to them, no, like what are you even? So all this is to say manhands, not into it. In fact, I mean, I- It should be the name of your next book if you want. But tell me about your colleagues

when you're on the road with colleagues. Oh my goodness. You know that saying, you are the company you keep. I do think it's the same in comedy. What I love about comedy is like it's such a motley crew. It's such a ragtag of like fuckery. And you're really forced to be in a space with someone that you ordinarily would never hang out with. And the common theme is how do we make shit funny? We've all been through a lot. Everyone's been through a lot, but we recognize it

and we talk about it, you know, and we just see the world a different way. And so I actually miss, I miss going to comedy clubs and hanging out with people, but I don't miss late nights because I want to be in my bed at 930. Did I answer your question? I don't even know. Yes, it's fine. But this actually works perfectly into this question. Every week we get a question from an outside expert. We have a special one for you. Oh, hi there. Alana Glazer here with a question for Michelle Buteau. Michelle, I am privileged

to be close to you and to be friends with you for many, many, many years. And I've watched you always bring so much energy and life and juice and sauce to every room you walk into. Things have been very full for you from putting out your stand-up special as the first woman to film a stand-up special in Radio City Music Hall, putting out the second season of Survival of the Thickest, which you worked so hard to do from the inside out, and you just finished filming a movie overseas. What is a moment you remember from being a kid or a teenager that connects to this

moment of fullness for you? Sending you love, love you, you're both my heroes. What in the this is your life is going on? I know this is it. So answer that question. That's a great question. Yeah. This is so ridiculous, but I maybe I was seven or eight and I lived on a cul-de-sac in Jersey. And instead of just drawing, I made like a little magazines. I found the stapler and I was like, oh, I could put it together.

And then I decided to make a bunch of magazines. And I called it head over heels. And I had like a severed head and a shoe. I was very literal. And then like I would kind of write stories about all the happenings on the cul-de-sac. Like so-and-so's dog pooped, so-and-so's like doing their pool over, and I would put it in everybody's mailbox. And at one point the neighbors asked my parents for me to stop putting stuff in their mailbox. But I just remember thinking this is so fun. I didn't

understand what community organizing was then, but I was like, I'm going to bring everyone together and this is going to be really fun. And I get to be artistic. And then also I was rejected and I was like, OK, got it. You don't want to hear from me? That's weird. That's such like a moment for like what this career is. Right. I'm going to keep putting stuff in your mailbox. Like you put your heart and soul out there and someone's like, I don't know, not for me.

It's like you can't even appreciate the thing I made. It's very mother-in-law at Thanksgiving. It's like, but taste it, you know? Wow. Yeah. Wow. How dare you? Did you continue? Did you keep going? No, I moved on. And this is also telling.

I was like- Head over heels was head one issue? You know, I think around college, I came up with this like mantra for myself and it was dating but it actually applies to the industry. If you don't want to hear from me, you're going to hear about me. But, and so I moved on and I started the Pound Puppy Cabbage Bash Kid Club. And then I invited four or five girls. Oh, that's a position of power. That's come over.

And it's interesting because community is, it's about community, I think is what you're talking about, is a major theme in Survival, the thickest as well. In season two, you lean into your characters' connections with the transgender community. It's not overtly political, but it is. Talk a little about the community, because this came up in your Netflix specials, a stand-up special at Radio City Music Hall, Beautiful Mind.

You tell a joke about beautiful black lesbian friend, everybody laughs, and then you go meta and reflect on making that joke. I want to play the clip first, and then I want you to reflect on it. Okay. We could tell jokes and stories and not disparage a whole community. We can do that. We can make it funny.

We just have to work at it, right? So if you guys ever run into Dave Chappelle, can you let him know that shit? I don't think he knows that shit. I don't think we'll ever run into Dave though, because he is the goat. And he is the goat, if that means going off about trans people. Dave, it's not funny. It's dangerous. Make it funny.

That's all. I can't believe somebody would make me the goat. That's all. I can't believe somebody would make millions and millions of dollars for making people feel unsafe. That is so wild to me. Like, truly. I'm manifesting this shit tonight. This is a Radio City Music Hall takeover and and I'm going to tell everybody, I want to

make millions and millions of dollars for making people feel safe, seen, secure, heard, and entertained. You know, you're making a really salient point here. I went off on Netflix on Chappelle only because I was like, it's not funny. Like, it's also an hour of not funny. He had a bit about lesbians, also wasn't funny, but I was like, I'm up for lesbian jokes. If they're good, they're good. I'm willing to listen to them. I'm not overly sensitive. Talk about that idea of what you're doing there and you're doing it on the show

again. Actually, you're not just calling out Chapelle, you're making the point about what's funny and what makes money. Talk a little bit about what you were doing here. I feel like once you're given the opportunity to speak your mind on a platform, then be responsible and do that. And so I can show up and be funny and write jokes and not offend or, but it's not about that. It's about making people think, have some thought provoking anything. And I really had to say something because it is dangerous and people are being rewarded for that. And I'm just like, and the internet really tried to hand my ass back

to me, you know, and it's like. And the same parallel with this administration is it's like, why do you get to say the most egregious shit, but I can't put my hand up and say, I do not agree. Right. That's dangerous, too. Why would you punch down on a marginalized community constantly? That's not fun. That's not even how comedy really works. And so a lot of these comedians who are just like, you can't say anything anymore. You can just make it funny. Put the work in.

You can do it. You've done it before. By the way, y'all were well 20, 25 years ago. Don't forget that. I think it's really egregious to say these horrible things, not just a lot of it, like it's okay to say these really egregious things about people who cannot defend themselves. People who are trying to live their life, stand in their truth, and you have the government saying you don't exist and you shouldn't exist. That's insane. This is where it leads. And culture makes a difference.

Look at Kendrick Lamar's halftime show. OK, you can do that. I'm not saying everybody's got to, you know, stand on business and be political all the time. But like if you're going to say something. At least make it funny or entertaining, you know, because these people are like really rich and they get to say whatever they want to say. Then they go on their private jets and they talk to who they're going to talk to.

And they have, yes, people around them and everybody works for them and they go home and they're safe. No, we have to be out in the world. We have to walk down that street and get ourselves home. We have to be on the subway, you know, and people are like looking up to these people and listening to them, whether they're a politician or musician or a comedian. And so I... And you went the other way in survival where you really integrated in the trans, you integrated them into the show, which is interesting.

When you just... But it's not, to me, it's not integration. It's just your life. It's life. Yeah. It's like, to me, it's not integration. It's just your life. It's life. Yeah. It's like, you know, I told Netflix from Jump, I want to show my version of New York City. And this is my, you know, like I grew up in New York City in my 20s, my 30s. And it's just like, I love Sex and the City.

I love Friends. I love Seinfeld. But I'm just like, y'all don't have one Puerto Rican friend? Y'all live in New York City? That's crazy. Not one Black friend? Not one gay friend? What is going on? So like, y'all don't have one Puerto Rican friend? Y'all live in New York City? That's crazy. Not one black friend, not one gay friend. What is going on? So like, yeah, I'm like, we're not going to a diner, we're going to the drag bar. That's where we met up. Did you worry at all in both those instances about calling out someone as powerful as Dave

Spell given the political environment? You said the internet handed it back to you. Yeah, I'm still trying to figure out my relationship with social media. Ignore it. You know? It's the loudest people in the room. It's not reality. Yeah.

And because there's like so many sick people in my family, I know that we're not promised tomorrow. And so I'm just like, I am who I am. I'm going to stand on business. It's going to be hard. It hurts my feelings. I move on. It doesn't determine my worth or happiness.

And I'm doing it for those people that need it, you know? Because like that one voice like matters. You know what I mean? Like if I can make someone feel better seen, then that's all that matters. And you know, the DMs that people send me or the stories that they tell to my bloated freckled face at 4 a.m. in the airport, I do appreciate. Yeah, me too. There's another moment in a special where you tell a story about being high and your

husband dragging you to a reptile exhibit, where you have a special encounter with a bearded dragon and a maga lady. You really don't, you go right in there. Let's listen to this. The tour guide was like so happy. He's like, she never does this. She trusts you, she loves you.

And I was like, she sure do. But honestly, right now is giving they them. Uh-huh. Just being on the real real. And then I heard a voice in the pack of camouflage say, oh you want them woke ones? And so you know I'm a little high. And I go, what'd you say? I couldn't hear you through your four good teeth. Don't come for me unless I sent for you, bitch.

See, I want to be nice. Girl, I want to be nice. But, you know, people don't think that I can be mean because it is giving jolly, you know, back fat freckles, you know what I mean? But like, don't think that I can be mean because it is giving jolly, you know, back fat freckles, you know what I mean? But like, don't do it. Talk about what happened next because your husband takes a stick back and you get serious. Talk about what happened next.

Yeah, it's so wild. You know, it's so wild when you feel like you're an adult and you know how to protect your peace and you're not going to participate in road rage. But some people just push your buttons sometimes. They get the right moment, the perfect storm, but no George Clooney. And I got the Jersey Mall parking lot in the back of my throat. And I'm just like, are we doing this? Am I a DMX song?

Are you really coming for me? But it was bigger picture. Because I knew exactly, it's just like woke. OK, it really felt like I was on a Megyn Kelly podcast. I was like, let me just tell you something and Like I can't even like, you know, I can't even imagine what it would be like as a non-binary trans person Trying to defend yourself to somebody like that is so insane and because I'm I'm lit up. I'm lit up and I as a straight woman, I'm lit up. I'm lit up. And as a straight woman, I'm lit up. And I'm like, what is happening?

And so, look, do I think it made a difference in her life? I don't know. But I know I feel better about it. And I've already talked about it. But yeah, sometimes you just got to say the thing and know when to walk away. Yeah, I didn't mind it at all. And what I do too is wear the outfit the next day. Because I need like a better memory in the outfit.

And so I do that. Because it's like, how dare you make me with this shirt? Yeah, I just had a debate with Scott, Scott Gallagher, my podcast about whether you can say things to cyber truck owners. I'm like, yes, you can. They bought it.

They made a choice. And he's like, you should be civil. I said, only white guys can talk about civility. A gay people, people of color, don't people of color have been beat upon for years and maybe they go too far, maybe they push too hard, but it's because after years of people saying shit to your face constantly. And I was like, and sometimes you just, you've had it, you've had it and you may be censorious, but they actually do the thing. You may be irritating, the left may be irritating, but the right actually does something about it,

like banning books or taking words out. I said the people taking words out are actually the Trump administration out of government. I was like, left-wing people are irritating at the worst, and they actually make things happen. So I was like, I think I'd feel good pushing back. You know, the opposite of DEI is it's diversity, equity, inclusion is homogeneity, inequality, and exclusion. So I was like, I'm for DEI then.

Yeah. When I see that, I'm just like, okay, I get to have a show. It's going to be the biggest, the blackest, the queerest, the baddest, the sexiest shit you have ever seen. Because everything is feeling like a takeover. Which Chappelle did originally, didn't he? He really did originally with his show, did that very thing. The interaction feels very real and obviously the situation has gotten a lot worse for trans people. Recently I interviewed Laverne Cox earlier this year,

right before her prime show Clean Slate came out. She was talking about how to push back against fashion and the politics of cruelty we're seeing right now. Let's listen what she said. For me, it's about humanizing people. It's about a rehumanizing process. If we start to look at this, at all of our politics and the lens of dehumanization versus rehumanization, how do we humanize individuals and people and change the language from culture

war to human rights and civil rights? Then we can start to frame these issues on our terms and on the terms around truth. So that's a resonate. You like to say that is someone's child. Why do you think it's hard for most people to think, start from that perspective? I think it's because so many, I don't want to generalize, but a lot of white Americans, just like saying Americans, because I know some Europeans too, but let's just say that, never have to think outside of themselves. They never have to think outside of their five block radius.

And they will always be protected. In social situations, without anyone even knowing the moment before, they are protected. Whether it's in a kindergarten class, whether it's on a football field, whether it's late at kindergarten class, whether it's on a football field, whether it's late at night, whatever it is, they are always protected. Excuse me. So sorry, I'm allergic to racism.

Yeah, I have allergies. It's called Fox and Friends. But yeah, it's sort of like, it's this thing where you've never had to think about anybody else. And so for someone like me, a little light-skinned and thick Caribbean gal in central Jersey going to an all-white school, I've had to think about me. I've had to think about my family that is darker than me. I've had to think about my Chinese and Indian family. And I've had to figure out

how to like move in a white space since I was like in first grade and sort of explain why my hair does this. I have vocabulary about hair density at seven and eight, you know. It was so important to me to, in season one, episode five, to put in the show the first time I was called the N-word because that is a story that so many people can relate to. And everyone's got that story. And you definitely lose your innocence, you know? A lot of white kids lose their innocence when they find out Santa's not real. But what about the little Afro-Latina and black and brown kids that lose their innocence when they've been called a nigger on the playground when they're five or six. And so it is, it's not a shared experience, but we can,

and I like to over communicate, we can talk about it. And you know, and if you're open so we can understand each other. One of the things, someone asked me why social media for example is so, is such a difficult place for a lot of people and why there's so much ugliness in it. And I said, because the people who designed it never felt unsafe a day in their lives, because they don't understand lack of safety, because they don't experience it. We'll be back in a minute. You've talked about how Netflix was supporting shows that have their own voice.

Of course, they do it also difficult voices like Chappelle, which I do appreciate in a lot of ways. So do you think the current climate will change what kind of shows get greenlit? You know, I was just, I was at this event last night and some of the people from SF Pride came up to me and they said, you know, all the corporate sponsors are pulling out right now because of the Trump administration. Are you seeing that at all? And after Trump was first elect, a lot of people in Hollywood did speak out, but we haven't seen as much this time around. There's a lot of jokes.

I know. But I do think there's a definite pullback. And I was just reflecting like on this Atlantic story where they're really pushing the Trump administration on this signal thing. Lorraine Powell Jobs is the only billionaire owner who is just not backing down, right? And of course, it's a woman. But it's like, do you see that happening? Are you afraid of it having an impact on your career? I can't say that I see a difference because it's always been hard. It's just always been hard trying to get shit greenlit, period.

But I really hope not. I really hope Netflix is like, no, we are international. We are behind, you know, every voice, you know, for better or for worse, whatever that means. And so I really hope not. And this is the beauty of standup because it's like, no matter what, like, I always have the power to do what I want to do and say what I want to say. Now, you know, depending on like what platform like will have me, but I'm just like, I don't even want to speak it into existence because I'm scared. I'm really

scared. Does that make for you to edit yourself? Absolutely not. I'm not working from a place of fear. Fuck that. No. No. No. I've worked too hard on myself and in my career. No.

And it's too important. No. No. Edit yourself? No. No. So many people edit themselves and they do what they think they should be doing and then they beat themselves up when it doesn't go through.

You know, when it doesn't get a second season or get greenlit. It's just like, no, I need to sleep at night. And if I'm not doing what I know I need to do, what my intuition tells me I need to do, then I'm not going to sleep. So no, working from a place of fear is, if you're an artist, get over that shit real quick. So I want to finish up talking about your business. You've been building your career in brand for 20 years.

You're an actress, producer, writer, stand-up comic, podcast host, TV host. You're on Barbecue Showdown, which I didn't know. It's a true multi-hyphenate, and thank God you did that last one. At this part, how do you decide what to take now? Because I get that I do a lot of things myself, but what are you interested in? What's your criteria right now when you're picking? Because now you have choices, right? You know you have choices. Yeah. It's also like how long am I going to be away from my family? Because I don't like that. So I'm like... Then you need to be in bed at 930.

But also like how can I make the most money in the shortest amount of time and feel inspired? I love connection. And so when I looked about barbecue showdown, it's like, you know, you see barbecue, but once you get in there with the pits, it's like people are reclaiming their ancestors' stories through a recipe. This guy that won Thiron in season two, I've never met a black man from Appalachia. And the first time he had barbecue, his mom was so poor, she found a discarded refrigerator and learned how to smoke meat in it. What? You know, and everyone, and like even this chick Michelle that was in season two, like she started barbecuing because her father passed away and it was

her and her sisters and every Sunday he would barbecue and they missed him and they missed the Sunday barbecue. So she taught herself how to barbecue. And it's just all these stories. So anyways, all this is to say, connection. Like if I can be sassy and friendly and a little shady, then that's like my sweet spot. You are now executive producer of your stand-ups and TV show. How much creative control do you, as you were saying, you'll do what you want to do. How much do you get involved with everything else? What don't you

want to do and what do you want to do? I think about this all the time, what I want and don't want to do. And I think the most powerful moment in my career came when I walk away from stuff or I say, I don't want to do that. and I started being more successful when I got selfish. I use the word selfish in a different way. I'm not going to do that. How do you think about your career? That's so funny. Especially as a woman and a woman of color, you know, because you don't have as many choices.

Neither do I. It's sort of a continuum of choices that people get in life. That's so interesting. So I, there's nothing that I don't want to do when it comes to my shit. So being selfish for me is putting my foot in it and doing all of it. I want to be a part of all those conversations. I want to be a part of all those meetings. I want to see how people are talking about, you know, black, brown, and queer background,

hair and makeup department. I wanna be a part of all of it. And I think, especially running two seasons of my own show, which is like so amazing, right? I love being in the rooms because like working with people, they always say, but they want, they want. It's just like, okay, we are the they. So start saying we.

What do we want? What do we want to do? And so, you know, the thing I won't do for sure is try to make other people happy. Especially when people are saying, we want you to be happy. I'm like, do you? Then this would make me happy. If I can't do that, how do we like, you know, come to some sort of like happy

medium? But and if people are just like, oh, I don't get it, or that's not funny, is it's like, oh my God, okay, then it's my job to figure out, you know, how to make it funny and for you to get. So I don't mind taking notes and going back to the drawing board because you know, it's not personal. It board because, you know, it's not personal. It's like, you know, it's a living organism is always going to like change and grow and all that stuff. But like for me, I want to be in it. I want to know. I want to know who you are and what you think. And I want to be a part of the process. So being selfish for me is like getting up in it because people are so different when you're not in the room. You know?

And I'm like, what do you all really think? Yeah, absolutely. Wouldn't it be great to be able to read people's minds just for, you know, an hour? Not long because then you'd go crazy. So my last question, you talk about manifesting the reality you want right now. That's what you're talking about. Is there a new role, new title you'd like to add? What interests you right now? It feels like you'd be a great late night host. So that might be not, that's not really the journey for people anymore because those

ratings are going down, for example. So what are you finding interesting right now? Oh my goodness. I just sort of had this conversation with one of my really good friends last night. A title like late night or talk show host, like daytime talk show host or movie star, I feel like that shit's limiting. And by saying movie star, then I'm like giving my power over to like... Like a few hundred people that make movies, and it's just like, fuck that.

You know, I can make a movie too. So I just feel like for me, the thing I wanna do is be working, is to be an artist, to create, to executive produce my own shit, to give people a voice to tell their stories, to uplift people, to change their resume, to make sure that people who have not had access to things

have them, get them in the room, give them confidence to believe that they can do it. And while I'm also, hello, make money too, let's go, you know, to really create some generational wealth so we can have some generational health, period. So there isn't one title because the title is Michelle Butoh. Hello. I like that. The title is Michelle Butoh. That's the name of the episode. I'm going to leave it at that. Dope.

Thank you so much. Thank you. It was so nice meeting you. On with Kara Swisher is produced by Christian Castro-Roselle, Kateri Yocum, Dave Shaw, Megan Burney, Megan Cunane, and Caitlin Lynch. Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of audio. Special thanks to Kate Gallagher. Our engineers are Rick Kwan, Fernando Arruda, and Aliyah Jackson. And our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, you are not tap dancing for the patriarchy. If not, go check out Barbecue Showdown.

Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On with Kara Swisher and hit follow and make sure you're following On with Kara Swisher on Instagram, TikTok, Blue Sky and Threats. Not On X. Sorry, Elon. Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network and us. We'll be back on Thursday with more.