On with Kara Swisher - Molly Jong-Fast on How to Survive Anything

Episode Date: June 23, 2025

Molly Jong-Fast is best known as a writer and political commentator. But before she became the host of Fast Politics with Molly Jong-Fast, a regular on MSNBC, and a novelist and memoirist, she was the daughter of Erica Jong.  Jong catapulted to literary stardom with her 1973 novel Fear of Flying.  The bold — and, at the time — shocking story of a married woman looking for casual sex made her a literary icon of second-wave feminism. And although Jong-Fast was an only child, she grew up sharing her life with the fictional alter-egos Jong created and longing for a deeper connection with her alcoholic and mostly-absent mother. But now, Jong-Fast has turned the tables. She’s written an unsparing memoir about her relationship with her mother and Jong’s struggle with dementia titled, How to Lose Your Mother.  Kara talks to Molly about difficult mothers, the perils of writing a memoir, her pivot to journalism, and what gives her hope for America.  Questions? Comments? Email us at [e-mail] or find us on Instagram, TikTok, and Bluesky @onwithkaraswisher. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I did the thing that I had been taught to do when writing, which was to get on the page and open a vein. And that was how my mom did it, and that was how that was sort of, and everything else, I feel like I can't, you know, either people like it or don't. Do you know what I mean? I think you think more than I do.

That's why I'm vaguely happier that we have the same mother, I think. Hi everyone from New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network. This is On with Kara Swisher and I'm Kara Swisher. My guest today is writer, podcaster and political analyst, Molly Jongfast. Molly is also the daughter of writer and second wave feminist, Erica Jong, known for her groundbreaking 1973 autobiographical novel, Fear of Flying. It made Erica Jong incredibly famous back in the day, similar to Molly's grandfather,

Howard Fast, who wrote Spartacus and dozens of other books. Molly is a literary nepo baby of sorts. I met Molly though, not having anything to do with that, in Washington, D.C., when she started writing columns about Trump for a variety of publications. And she was very lively and had not been in the political scene for very long, and started to really make a splash

in terms of being much more out there and really going for it and being more, more fashioning her career like a social media journalist in a lot of ways. And I thought it was really interesting. Her latest book, though, is not about politics. It's about her mother. It's called How to Lose Your Mother, a Daughter's Memoir, about her difficult relationship with her mother and how it changed when she started slipping into dementia a few years ago in 2023. I wanted to talk to Molly about all of that and also how she shifted gears from being a book writer to becoming a liberal social media news influencer and political analyst.

Our expert question this week comes from the great memoirist Anne Lamott, one of my favorite people. Molly is very funny and heartfelt and the issue of how you deal with your parents is something near and dear to my heart so stay with us. Whether it's a family member, friend or furry companion joining your summer road trip, enjoy the peace of mind that comes with Volvo's legendary safety. During Volvo Discover Days, enjoy limited time savings as you make plans to cruise through Muskoka or down Toronto's bustling streets.

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Thanks for coming on On. And we're going to start with essentially How to Lose Your Mother, the book you've written. I think it's fair to say that 2025 has been a challenging year so far, especially for a person so immersed in politics like yourself. Oh, yeah. But it sounds like 2023, the year you wrote How to Lose Your Mother, it might be a cakewalk in comparison. I thought the book was wonderful. I was surprised by it because I read your other writing, which is more, I'd say more

glib and more, you know, you're a political writer in a lot of ways. By the way, you're a beautiful writer no matter what, but in this case, even more beautiful. But for those who haven't read the book, can you give a quick overview of what 2023 was like for you? So basically, one of my friends who is also Jewish, read it and she said to me, and I feel like she said, it's a Jewish beach read. Like, it's very, you read it very fast. You know, it's fun to read, but it is very dark. Yeah.

Yeah. So in 2023, I thought that it was going to be a normal year. And actually, one of my kids had wisdom teeth out and we had like made this whole thing to be there because I had had my wisdom teeth out when I was young and it had been just like a, for whatever reason, everything had gone wrong. So we planned everything and then January came and my husband got, he was having some stomach pain. He went to the hospital. They found a mass on his pancreas in the emergency room.

Which is a very troubling mass to have where it was. And then, like, in short order, my mother and stepfather, who had been living alone but in a very sort of untenable situation, but I had been, like, trying to let them live there, it just, the wheels fell off. He ended up back and forth in the hospital because he had dementia and Parkinson's. And then she ended up, and it just, everything sort of went pear-shaped. And that was like sort of the highlight of the year because then after that happened, we moved them into a home.

My stepfather died. My husband had all these surgeries on the pancreas, which it turned out to be okay, but there was a lot of like, is this the bad cancer? Is this the good cancer? Pancreatic cancer is usually very, it's usually a death sentence. Yeah, turned out to be the good cancer. Yeah. And then he went back to have more surgery and while he was having surgery, his father fell, broke his pelvis and then because he was 91 had a cascade of other stuff and then died and then my aunt died. And then, and then because he was 91, had a cascade of other stuff and then died. And then my aunt died. And then, and it just was, it just was like this craziness. There was this one

moment where we were at the same funeral home in Connecticut, because we had been there for his father's funeral and then we'd been there for the aunt's funeral. And the people who own the funeral home came out to us because it was like three weeks later and we're like, are you okay? And I... Oh, pity from funeral home people. And I thought, how bad does it have to be for these guys to come out? Because it's good business, right?

Yeah. Oh my God. And also, like, those guys have seen some shit. Yeah, I would say that. That is a lot. What do you think the universe was telling you at that moment? I think, I actually think that the universe was telling me that you can, and this is the message of that book, and it's funny because this is the message of the book,

there's a lot about my mom and I think people are very interested in that relationship. And it's built around your relationship with your mom, which informs everything you do. Right. Right. Exactly. But I actually think the message of that book is you can get through anything. Because throughout it, like Matt and I would look at each other and we'd be like, the only way through is through. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, I mean, I was waiting for an asteroid at some level. But you talk about it, it is built around your mom and your relationship with your mother because it obviously informs a lot of your life and either breaking away from it or embracing it, often breaking away from it. You had a lot of lines that I really like. Obviously the one that got attention is how could you lose your mother, by the way, is still alive.

And one thing you know, which I think the line everyone's picking up on is how could you lose her if you never had her, right? That she was a non-present parent, and she was the most important relationship of your life at the time. Some of the lines that I thought were interesting was, you know, as she descended into dementia, you said she was an echo of herself, which is, you know, that you never,

you didn't have a very clear relationship with her, and then she became an echo of her very loud personality most of her life, which is a beautiful line. So one of the things I thought was so relatable in the book were your deliberations about whether to refer to her in the past or the present. You write, she's both alive and dead, she's both my mom and not my mom.

Talk a little bit about that. So this is actually a really common phenomenon that almost everyone describes when they have a loved one or a parent with dementia, which is they are both there and not there, right? It's like you have a moment where you see that whatever makes a person themselves, and I think that is a real open question, starts to go. You know, it becomes a question of like, who are you? What are the things that constitute a person? I mean, I remember when I was young, my father was a Buddhist and actually my grandfather, Howard Fass, was also weirdly a Buddhist.

And I mean, I remember my father saying, you know, he's a vegetarian, so do with this information what you will, but I remember him saying like, the person is just hamburger. Like the body is not the person. Meat. Meat, right. And so when she was slipping away, there was this feeling that it wasn't really like that. I just had a moment where I was like, it's over. Like I cannot ever make the peace. Like all I wanted was to have the kind of relationship with my mother that I have with

my daughter. Right. was to have the kind of relationship with my mother that I have with my daughter. You know, where we, you can be mad at me, but the love, and I loved my mother, and she loved me. Like, I do believe she loved me as much as she could love anyone who was not her, or not a man. You know, men had a different kind of relationship to women in my mother's generation, I think. Right. It's interesting because you also said I didn't ever have her. How can you, again, lose someone that you didn't have that... I mean, wishing for a relationship is one thing.

Making it real is another, right? Having it real. And one of the things that really struck me is I have a very similar relationship with my mom. My mom does the same very dramatic, I love you so much, this and this and that. And it took me many, many, many years to say, I know you think you love me. Right. Which is, you know, I think that was as much as I could knowledge, but it was very much, you really don't. Like you. It's, yeah. Well, you don't in the traditional sense. It's so gaslighting. Yes. Yeah.

No, but I think they think it, which is interesting. In your case, you lost the ability to have that discussion with your mother intelligently. Although I don't think you ever would have had that discussion with your mother, even with her full faculties or relatively full faculties at the age she has reached. Yeah. I mean, don't you have that experience with your mom? I mean, sorry to ask. She's fully there.

My mother's fully there. But don't you have that experience where, like with my mom, I would say, like when she was still with it, we'd have conversations and I'd be like, you know, I know you say you love me so much, but... Evidence to the contrary. Right. I feel like this kind of thing when you get really drunk and embarrass me in front of everyone I know, I feel like that doesn't feel like you loving me.

And you know, like very therapyzed. And she could not, and she'd be like, you hate me. I, right? If you hate everything, you know, you never liked me. Yeah, I know I've had that conversation. Yeah. Yeah. And at one point I was like, really?

You're right. I don't. See, you have the benefit, and I hate to say it this way, it was your mother has dementia and she used to drink, so I have neither of those things. I was like, can I have an excuse for this? But no, indeed, it is completely a chosen situation, which is hard. Let's talk a little bit about your mother first. We'll get back to having the same mother. We could trade them if you'd like a version. If you're wishing

to give it a try, you can use mine. Lucky seems actually a little scarier than my mom. Because she's very active. She's very sharp, she is. And didn't she break out of the nursing home? She did. I've got her in another one now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

See, Erica Jong does not break out of nursing homes. Well, that's a good thing. I wish got her in another one now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. See, Erica Jong does not break out of nursing homes. Well, that's a good thing. I wish that was the case. I know. I know. I think you have a little worse with breaking out of nursing homes. So your mom, let's talk about who your mom is for people who don't know.

Your mom, because it is part of the story because it forms her narcissism. I may too. And her quest for fame that really, really fucked with her in a lot of ways, which I think was interesting. So you write very smartly about famous and becoming unfamous actually. So your mom became very famous as a so-called second wave feminist after her 1973 autobiographical novel Fear of Flying. It's sexually explicit, sex positive as most people say today, and also very funny. It was published before you were born. Talk a little bit about the fame and how it impacted you, especially the Fear of Flying, which I don't think as many younger people know these days or wouldn't find very shocking,

but at the time it most certainly was. Shocking. Shocking. I remember it as a as a 10-year-old. I was like, whoa. You know, and everyone was looking for the book to read. All the 10 to 12-year And everyone was looking for the book to read. All the 10 to 12-year-olds were looking for the book to read. So yes, it was very shocking. It published in 1973. I think the way to think of it is contextually the pill. Right. Game changer. But it takes a little while to sort of get into the culture. 1973, Fear of Flying and also Roe v. Wade the same year.

And from what I understand from people coming over and telling me about it, which I think is sort of the most useful kind of thing is that people, there were many women who read that book and were like, I've been doing it wrong. Like, I can have sex, I can, I don't have to be married to the first person I sleep with. You know, it was just sort of a, it was a like, you don't have to be what your parents

told you you needed to be. And remember, my mom was born in 1942. So I think what was hard for her was she really did want to be an academic. My grandfather was very, he had three daughters and his whole thing was everyone needed to be an academic. They all needed to get graduate degrees. My mother went to Barnard. She was a good student.

She was actually with Martha Stewart at Barnard. Oh, wow. That would have been something. And she did sleep with Andy Stewart. Oh, okay. All right. And I said, did you ruin Martha Stewart's marriage? First, she said, this is very Erica Jung.

She said, what happens in Frankfurt stays in Frankfurt. Okay. At the book fair. I was like, okay. And then she said, many people slept with Andy Stewart. Oh, so not my fault. Not my fault. I actually think that Martha was really mad at my mom because years later, my father got

married, remarried a few years later, not that many years later, and Martha was really wanted to do the wedding, which I feel like was a sign that she was not pleased. Well, that's a nice side story. Yes. But anyway, she was very famous. Your mother- Yes. Oh, sorry. She was very famous. Your mother... Yes. Oh, sorry.

She was very famous. Yes. There were several. Betty Friedan. There was a bunch of women writers that came up and hers was the sort of the sexy one. I remember many of the appearances she had on a lot of the TV shows. She was often on television shows and they were more titillated by her. You could feel that, right?

How did that impact you? Here you are, she was famous when you were born, which you wouldn't have realized for quite a few years, but she was, say, 10 years into it. You know, she was glamorous and interesting and smart. You know, it's important to remember that the world in which I grew up in doesn't exist anymore. So there was Norman Mailer and Tom Wolfe, and there were these fancy male journalists who dominated everything. They wrote for Vanity Fair and GQ and the New Yorker, and they had these outsized influences

in the culture. And they don't really exist anymore. Like, that's not how we do it anymore. You know, we have Theo Vaughn now. Right, exactly. And yeah, that's not so good. But so they had these outsized influences in the culture and she could never get in that group.

And that was very hard for her. For her. How did it impact you? Oh, how did it impact me? It's easier to talk about her, isn't it? Right. Yes. So for me, I think I was uniquely poorly designed for that childhood because

I was dyslexic. So that was a real problem. And I was also, you know, I got sober at 19 because I really was an alcoholic. Like I really was, you know, I do believe that there are some people who are born alcoholics and I really had that DNA where I just... Well, she was, and your grandmother was. Yeah, grandmother was too, yeah. But I had in my DNA just such the ism, if that makes sense. So I was extremely ill-prepared for that childhood. But I got through it.

Yeah. And my mom, you know, she had people who sort of took care of her. Yeah, she left you alone a lot, which is what you write about. When you say ill-prepared, I think she was ill-prepared for you. Yeah. I mean, I also think she was not, there was just a lot of, I mean, you have to remember, it is also the 70s and 80s. And like, people didn't parent the way they do now. Right? I mean, we didn't have car seats. Everybody smoked.

You know what I mean? Like, I mean, when I was three years old, I drank the bottoms of everyone glasses of champagne at a bat mitzvah, and everyone thought it was adorable. Like, it was just a very different way to grow up. And there were other kids I met who were the children of famous people who also were sort of dragged along and sort of treated like an afterthought. Yeah. It feels a little British. It feels a little rich people, fancy people. It's a trope.

Yeah. It's a trope. It's interesting because right now you're saying, oh, it wasn't so weird. It actually was so weird. Yeah. It's not a good way to grow up. When I talk about my mom, everyone's not a good way to grow up. When I talk about my mom, everyone's like,

I used to say, oh, you know, a lot of people are like that. They weren't. They weren't. Right? And I have a really hard time with my wife, whose parents are so lovely, like wouldn't be better parents. And very similar to how I parent my kids. Like, you know, you can see it. The only real fight we have is, I was like, you don't understand what it was like to be raised by wolves because you weren't. Like, you don't

understand. Like, you know, it was like sort of the constant lack of attention. And I think one of the things you struggle with was feeling like you're being a bad daughter to a woman who doesn't seem like she was a very good mother. I want to play one of the passages that really hit home. This is right after you moved your mom and stepdad in what you call the world's most expensive nursing home, which is where I've been moving my mother too. But let's listen to this.

A couple of days later, I called my dad. My one remaining parent, I was in a taxi heading to CNN to do a late night panel. I told him that mom wasn't dead yet, but that she wasn't exactly in there anymore. I told him that all she did was sleep and drink. I told him how guilty I felt. I said that I shouldn't be at the CNN studios. Wherever I was, I felt I should have been somewhere else.

I should have been spending more time with my kids, with my parents, with my dogs, with my cancerous husband. My dad tried to reassure me in his own peculiar fucked up way. You know, he said, when you were a little girl, the nanny and I used to try to get your mom to spend time with you. We tried to get her to spend just an hour a day with you.

This admission made me feel so great. She couldn't do it, my dad said. She couldn't even spend one hour with you. The most she could do was half an hour. Hmm, you didn't know that. Yes, yeah. No, my dad was hour. Hmm, you didn't know that. Yeah, yeah. No, my dad was, I mean, you know, there's a fair amount of everyone's settling the score

behind the scenes, but yes. You write these, but I'm wondering if you weren't taking care of them because they didn't take care of you. I think that a lot of people in the sandwich generation can relate to that, but do you still feel guilt about not taking care of her? Because it sounds like she hardly took care of you.

And I do want to ask about your father. Why isn't he as culpable in that? Oh, yeah. No, it's a good question. So do I still feel guilty? The answer is not really. But with my father, I think what happened was, I mean, if you want to get into this sort of

Nitty gritty of the divorce they had this really just epic divorce She in the end he kind of gave up and went away Not the best answer, but people didn't have joint custody back then. Right, men certainly didn't. So, but he's like subsequently like apologized to me and said I should have fought harder. I should have. I don't, I think it was very hard for him and for her to, you know, my grandfather had introduced them and I think they thought in 1975 when they met or 74 that they were going to get together and they were both going to become these famous writers and they were going to live in Malibu and have this

life that was this sort of fantasy. And what happened instead was they got together and they were going to kill each other and she was an alcoholic and he had a lot of issues with his dad and everything just imploded. And then they couldn't, it just was all of the sort of worst of everything. Oh, but my husband has this great shrink and he is very brilliant and writes books called George Macari. And George Macari said to Matt Greenfield about me, he said, sometimes the children of narcissists become

stuck on trying to fix their relationships with their narcissistic parents, despite the fact that there's not any role for them to play and that they over sort of become overly guilty because of that. And that made so much sense that it made me think that that's what I did. We'll be back in a minute. Get to Toronto's main venues like Budweiser Stage and the new Roger Stadium with Go Transit. Thanks to Go Transit's special online e-ticket fairs, a $10 one-day weekend pass offers unlimited travel on any weekend day or holiday, anywhere along

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Visit td.com slash smallbusinessmatch to learn more. Conditions apply. Every episode we have a question from an outside expert. Let's listen to yours. Hi, Molly Mooshu. This is your friend, Annie Lamott. And my question is, having also lost my mother to Alzheimer's, what is your relationship to yours now now both physically and in your heart

and mind? Love you, honey." Talk about your relationship now because even though despite the alcoholism and the narcissism, you did have a good relationship there for a while. You did interviews together recently in 2019. Yeah. By the way, I love that you got... That was so cool. That's really cool, getting Annie in there. We're good at that. Yeah, thank you. So my mother, I visit her at the nursing home. We put her in a new nursing home that I think is much nicer.

And we have this wonderful man who sits with her during the day called Johnny. And we went out for Mother's Day brunch. We have, you know, we, and I get the kids over there, so she gets to see the kids. It's okay. It's not, it's very sort of, it's not as much as it probably should be, but I see her and it makes me really sad. She recognizes you, correct? She recognizes me, but she doesn't recognize my kids anymore.

Or she doesn't, she sort of knows they exist, but she can't remember who they are or what they are. I mean, what was genuinely weird about the Times thing was, you know, so- There's an article in the New York Times. Right, and in it, the author calls my mom and asks her how she thinks about the book. She gave a very cogent answer, actually. Yes.

So, it was very strange. I mean, I knew she would give a cogent answer because I knew she has always felt that way. She's always said, you have a right to write anything you want. But it's sort of a misrepresentation because she's not like, I don't think she's capable of making decisions per se. So it's like a very ethically cloudy moment. Right, it is. It was interesting because I thought, I actually thought the writer was a little aggressive at you, which was interesting because the answer was quite cogent. It was, you should be able to write what you want. But this is not someone who seems to have read the book,

correct, or is able to finish it. She can't read. She can't read, she's lost the ability to read. And I didn't want to, what I didn't want is for her to be upset. Do you feel like writing the book, Delving into Your Childhood gave you closure? Because she can't read it.

Right. I always joke with my mom and she's like, oh, you're going to write a terrible book about me when I die. I go, absolutely. You're never going to read it. Or maybe you'll read it from heaven. I don't know.

I'm not sure that's the way you're headed. We joke about this. But it is ethically challenging. And someone's like, should you do that when she can read it or when she can't? And I was like, can't, obviously. Well, I mean, look, my mom wrote a book that had a lot of stuff that made a lot of people really unhappy, including like Alan John, right? He's dead now, but that guy was just a,

he was like a private person. So if you were just apples to apples, me writing about our experience together is absolutely not comparable. But I also think that she, really what Erica John cared about was her literary legacy, more than anything. So she made me, you know, for years and years and years, she said, I made you my literary

executor. I want to have a Didion like, I mean, which wasn't Didion then, but she knew that what she wanted was the thing that Norman Mailer doesn't have, but Joan Didion does have, right? That legacy of mattering, that's all she wanted. So in this way, that book does help with the legacy of Erica Joplin. Interesting. Oh, good excuse.

It's a good excuse, but it's also true. It happens to also be true. Yeah, but the Times, of course, called it literary retribution and quotes you as saying that you sold out Erica Jong. Explain that. Right. Well, I think it's true. I don't mind that you did it.

I think she totally deserved it. The me in this equation, the normal human who is not particularly, I don't like it. I don't feel great about it. But I also feel... Talk about that. Why? Because it's just not how I... I'm like a normal person.

So I certainly have desires of grandeur. I would like the book to sell a lot of copies. And I think I do help people in the book. Like I do think you read it and you think like, oh, you can really sort of do this and do that and it be okay. And, and like, I think the most useful stuff in the book is the stuff where Mac gets sick and I talk about how you deal with the kids when the husband is sick. Like, because that I think is actually really useful because a lot of people get cancer. And I think one of the things I was able to do was sort of help them stay in their lives and not get too involved with ours so that they didn't get too involved with their dad

being sick, which I thought was really a good thing I did. But you know, it's the salaciousness of it and the alcoholism and the, you know, who cares what happened in my childhood, like it's over, that stuff. But I did have that realization, which I think is worth talking about, which is that if you are an unhappy child, you're unhappy childhood, you're just constantly trying to get in there and fix it. Whereas these people were happy children. These happy children people.

Right. But they are just, they spend all their time talking about like, how can it be over? Yeah. Right? Like I just want it to be, you know, like, whereas I really do feel delighted to not be 11. Right. That's fair.

I do too. Yeah. I mean, in a lot of ways, it could be a self-help book, although I think it's a self-help book for you, honestly. Right. I mean, a lot of this, this genre is, you know, Jeanette McCurdy, I'm glad my mother's dead. It really is hitting rather strongly with a lot of people. Why do you think that is?

That's been on the bestseller list forever. You know, different circumstances, but same story, same song, right? Same song. I think we all want to fix our relationships with our parents. And I think we all want to connect about them because I do think we're sort of told that we're supposed to have a certain kind of relationship with our parents, that we're supposed to, you know, love them and mourn them. But the reality is a lot of us don't feel like that. And I think that there is a real, there's

something nice about knowing that you don't have to be the daughter in the movies. That you can just have very mixed feelings about your parents. And I think most people do. I mean, my own kids are teenagers, and one is 20-something, and they are sometimes furious with me. And I say, that's good. That's what you're supposed to,

that's how it's supposed to go. Two more questions about this. Do you think it made you a better, I think I'm a much better parent because I didn't have, my dad died so he gets an out on that one. But do you think you're a better parent because of that? I do, I think I, and same thing with my brothers, they're fantastic parents I would say.

Yeah, I mean, I definitely feel like I'm a better parent. I also get along with my brother. I love my brothers, my half-brothers. I love my brothers. Part of it is that I know when I used to get mad at my mom, she would be like, kill me. I was the worst. And you're like, no, no, I just want

to criticize you a little bit. And I just want to have a real conversation about something. You can't. They're impervious. And so I do think what's nice is when my kids are going to be like, you know, this wasn't the best moment for us, you know, and I'm sorry I gave you an eating disorder or, you know, those kind of things. But, you know, like where they want to get mad at you about things. so I do think I have I can have that conversation With them being a better parent. Yeah

It's interesting because you can only I'm almost like you could change at any point, but no they actually can't The last moment you can't they can't Advice lastly do you have for people with parents with dementia Alzheimer's? There's so many parents that have this disease and they're working on it and working for solutions, but a lot of time the health span lasts longer than the mind span and so it creates a really difficult care situation. Even when you have means, it's hard. When you don't, it's even worse. But no matter what, it's a very difficult.

So give me two pieces of advice. Yeah. I mean, don't be hard on yourself because everybody feels like they're not doing it the right way. I mean, I think that's uniformly true. You just do the best you can. I always think like put the oxygen mask on yourself first, worry about your kids, and then your parent last.

I really do. Because the kids, you only have the kids for such a short time and then they grow up. I think you prioritize the kids before the parents. Just, that's my take. And then I also think you just do the best you can. Like you're not going to, especially if they're sort of in that nether world, there's only so much you can do. Sometimes they'll be mad at you for, I mean, the biggest lesson I've ever learned in my life is not to take things personally. Right? That people are doing what they're doing and maybe it has to do with you and often it doesn't.

Yeah, no, often it doesn't. Yeah. It's zero to do with you. It's with their own journey. That's the great joy of middle age is knowing that it often doesn't have anything to do with you. Yeah, I often, I try not to feel bad, and I actually don't, yeah. I like the cats in the cradle. I often say that to myself when my mother says something like, oh, you hate me, I'm like, cats in the fucking cradle. And she's like, what?

I'm like, forget it, don't worry. Which is the Harry Chapin song about a parent who ignores a child and then later, the child has no time for them. It's an anthem. It's an anthem. Yeah. We'll be back in a minute.

Hi everyone, it's Nicole Wallace from MSNBC. Listen to my new podcast called The Best People. I get to speak to some of the smartest, funniest, and wisest people I have ever encountered. People like Kara Swisher, Rachel Maddow, Doc Rivers, Jason Bateman, Jeff Daniels, and Sarah Jessica Parker. They'll often say, hey Carrie, you know, they'll call me Carrie and that's all right too. The Best People with Nicole Wallace.

New episodes drop Mondays. Listen now wherever you get your podcasts. In 2001, Lindsay met a man named Carlo. About a week later, they went on a date. Almost 15 years after that, she found out Carlo had been keeping a secret. Did you just go through every single moment of your relationship trying to see if you picked up on anything or?

Yeah, I didn't sleep for days. I ran over things again and again in my head. And part of me didn't really still believe it. It took quite a while to sink in. I'm Phoebe Judge. Listen right now on Criminal, wherever you get your podcasts. One of the things you've done is you've become a well-known person too. You switched your career, I guess, you self-launched into journalism in 2015, I would say, for people who don't know you're a multi-hy hyphenate of special correspondent for Vanity Fair, a political analyst for MSNBC. You have a podcast Fast Politics on iHeart.

The Times did a write up on you a few years ago and you attribute your success to a combination of prolific posting on social media, your kind of tell it like it is brand, your personal connections of being an episodus, as you've called yourself. I'm not so sure you're writing off the back of Erica John. Not at this point. Not at this point. So talk a little bit about that shift for you. So I had all these kids, I wrote novels, I had all these kids, I went back into writing,

I started writing columns in 2015. I went to the place where I had written when I was like a kid and just wrote every week and wrote these political columns. I just had a realization that I didn't have to write about myself anymore, that I could write about politics. It was much more interesting and had nothing to do with me as a person in the world. Other things. Other things.

I also think what happened to me was when Obama came into presidency, I thought, oh, okay, it's going to be okay, right? Like they were going to fix all the stuff now, or the really smart people are going to get in government and they're going to fix stuff. And then I thought, and then Hillary is going to be president and this will all sort of work out. And then it was like, oh no, none of this is going to work out. And that got me involved in writing about politics. Right. And Trump was starting to be ascendant, correct?

Yeah. Is that what inspired you, Trump? I think I thought, I think the way it happened where he sort of got in there and the party was, the Republican Party was like, no. And then he was able to sort of defy gravity, was very much as a novelist, because I feel like originally I was a novelist, that really captured my imagination,

not in a good way, in a sort of, you know, as someone with both an anxiety disorder and an eye for drama, but also satire, it was a cataclysmic moment in American life. And I think it was for a lot of people. You didn't come up as a journalist. You said you came up as a novelist. And a lot of, according to a Pew study, one in five Americans rarely get their news from

news influencers on social media. It's a higher percentage among younger generations. Would you consider yourself, because you didn't come up the journalistic route, like I definitely did. Yeah. How do you define what you're doing? Because you're also in traditional media, you definitely check the box of traditional media.

But how do you look at yourself as a writer? I think of myself as an opinion journalist. So it tends to be that you come through journalism, but there are opinion journalists who come through other activities. So I think of myself as an opinion journalist who is more interested in prose than perhaps a more traditional journalist. But I have spent enough time now in that world that I'm very careful, which is good. Right. You're a cook about making mistakes and everything else.

Do you consider yourself a news influencer? You use social media quite a bit. You really do compared to other people. You're on all of them. You're still on X, even though you shouldn't be. You're on Blue Sky TikTok. You're on YouTube with Fast Politics. How do you fashion your life and how do you do it?

So what I would say is there are two things I aspire to do, make sense of what's happening, and also make people feel better. Those are really the two jobs. And so I try to read everything. Everything comes from reporting or from sources. And there's really good reporting coming from the Times, the Wall Street Journal, the Washington Post,

and even ProPublica, the Economist. So I just read everything. I talk to as many people as I possibly can. I also, one of my favorite things I do, which you're not supposed to do, but I do do, is I complain to comms people about the many things that I think their bosses are doing wrong, which makes me profoundly disliked.

But I do do that where I say, you know, I'm really disappointed. And I do this Jewish mother thing, which I do with my kids, where I say, I'm really disappointed that your boss can't speak. Like my new thing is I feel that Democrats should be speaking like normal humans. That I feel like that would make them more effective. So in that way, you're more an influencer, correct? I mean, I'm trying to sort of how you describe yourself to people, a columnist. I think of myself as a political columnist on the opinion side. On the opinion side. So it's interesting because your grandfather Howard Vest is known for

writing Spartacus. He was also a communist and spent time in prison for pleading the fifth before the House on American activities committee Oh, yes, and went to exile in Mexico for a while And as we talked about fear of flying was published in 1973 the same year that Supreme Court Determined Roe and writing about women's sexuality was a political act. Even if you say your mother wasn't political It certainly was she got a lot of pushback. But she also wrote about her time in Heidelberg in the 60s, how Germans were ignoring the recent Nazi past. Do you think about your job like that? Because you certainly come from a legacy of that. Yeah, and actually my grandfather was a political columnist too. So he wrote

these novels that were very sort of... The Hessians. I remember the Hessians. I remember the Hessians. Right. Heavily and didactic novels about liberalism and communism. And he wrote political columns. So, he had that similar thing where he was both things. And he was sort of a public intellectual, for lack of a better word, though he was not a high-level public inter... You know, he wasn't Buckley or Gore Vidal.

He was like this sort of Timu Buckley, well, not Buckley, but Timu Gore Vidal, but not gay. Oh, Gore Vidal. There you go, Grandpa. But he tried to be a public intellectual. So that was sort of an avenue that was available. I don't know that that's an avenue that is available. I don't know how intellectual I am.

But I just want to say one other thing about my grandfather, which is he was jailed. He was definitely a communist. He did refuse to name names. He did win the Stalin Peace Prize the last year that Stalin was giving it out. Which is a really a dubious honor, I would say, at best. My father found the Stalin Peace Prize in the garage and was like, oh my God, and he dropped it and now he can't find it again. So the family has a very conflicted relationship. That would be a good prize to lose, I would say.

It's a little bit curious to see it, but it's like a coin. I've seen it before. But I did have this amazing moment with my brother and I said to him, you know, Trump could put me in jail. Right. I was going to ask about that. Yeah. So you've obviously been very outspoken about President Trump.

You said you were worried about what would happen if he's reelected. A lot of people are. Yeah. Are you feeling that way? And when you think about these moments in history, Nazi Germany, McCarthyism, America, how do you assess where we are right now? Are you personally worried still?

A lot, some people are. Well, the best moment is my brother goes like, you better hope that you get put in jail, because that was the best thing that ever happened to grandpa. Oh. He was like, grandpa got next level when he was put in jail. So he was like, you better pray that you get out now. How do you feel about that?

I feel okay. I think that it's the closest to McCarthyism. I think the straightest line is McCarthyism. I do think what's really amazing about Trumpism is two things. One, he's not so good at this. That is what's so striking. For example, these law firms that went along with Trump, a lot of them are now getting pushback from their clients.

So I do actually think that, I actually feel a little better, because I think that even though a lot of billionaires have really caved to him in a disgusting way that was shocking, but it turned out it wasn't necessary. Like they could have just pushed back and survived. And so I feel like it's a really amazing cautionary tale for all of us, which is that you can be brave and you can do the right thing.

And there's no incentive, in fact, for caving. So you're feeling more hopeful that there is pushback is occurring. That said, I want to finish up talking about the Democrats. You wrote an article in Vanity Fair about President Joe Biden just after his cancer diagnosis was announced. This was personal because your husband's cancer treatment.

You wrote, one of my few positive aspects of being a cancer family is that you really get connected to your man and the humanity of people around you. Cancer is nonpartisan. But still, there's a lot of Sturm and Drang around how he had ringing and blaming gaming within the Democratic Party. In March, you wrote a party's very existence relies on elevating a new suite of leaders. So talk a little bit about if there's been pushback, how do you think, why do you think elected Democrats are having a hard time figuring out what to do to show they're relevant and that they're actually doing something to stop this

slide away from democracy? Look, Trump is Trump. Republicans cave to him. They set this in motion. Democrats had a hard time trying to push back on these authoritarian impulses. Part of it was because it's very hard to be sort of the one party that believes in norms and institutions. That's an impossible situation to be in. Part of it was that they really got in their own ways. They thought too much about themselves. A lot of times you'll hear people will say, well, it's the online left that is having too much power.

But I actually think that it's not. I actually think that the problem isn't, I mean, maybe at one time it was, but I think really the problem now is the consultant class that gets in there and says, you can't say this, you can't say that, you have to be careful, you shouldn't do that interview, you shouldn't do this interview. Like if we learn anything from Donald Trump, Donald Trump went everywhere. He said crazy stuff. It didn't matter, right?

Because you have so little of people's attention and you just have to be everywhere. And I think one of the worst moments for me was those Google searches on election day where people didn't know that Joe Biden had dropped out of the race. Like, this is a country of 300 plus million people. They are not reading the newspaper. You just have to get in front of them any way you can. And it doesn't matter if your message is brilliantly tailored or not. And in fact, I think the worst thing Democrats do to themselves is talking points. You know, like there are some really, really smart Democrats who you can't hear what they

have to say because they are like, you know, McKinsey talking point to McKinsey talking point. And I actually think just talking like a human to another human is the way to go. Who do you think that's going to be? You interviewed Vice President Kamala Harris for Fannie Farron in 2022. You were a supporter through the presidential campaign. But who do you think should be the Democratic ticket? How are you looking at when you're starting to assess? Because people will be now focused on 2026 and 2028. First of all, I think that they should have a really strong primary process where everybody gets out there and

is on the stage and is taking, is having the conversation, as many people as possible and they should, and those people, I don't know who the pick should be, but I think that the pick should be someone who goes everywhere, who goes on Thiel Vaughn and the Milk Boys and who goes on Joe Rogan and who will literally go on everything. There is no path to the presidency that doesn't lead through every single news influencer, even the ones you don't like. The one thing I think the online left did really, really wrong, and I am guilty of this too, and I think it was a huge mistake, is the idea that you should only go on things that agree with you.

You should go on everything. You should go on the Fox and Fox and Friends and everything you don't, Newsmax, everything you don't like, whatever the most objectionable, even if you don't ideologically jive with it, even if you feel that they say bad things about vaccines, you should go on everything. That's my feeling. Yeah, it's interesting because you do reach people, you know, as opposed to your mom. My mom loves Fox News.

Right. You don't have that nightmare to deal with. Thank God. But the one thing I would say also is like Newsom did a podcast and what he did, which was wrong, was he platformed those people. What he should have done is gone on Charlie Kirk's podcast, not brought Charlie Kirk to his people. So go on their podcast, don't necessarily bring them to yours.

Mm-hmm, come to your house, go to their house. Yes, exactly. So are you feeling, you seem like you're feeling more confident. Where do you feel we are right now in this process? And then I have a final question about your mom. So here's what I would say. I would have been really, really incredibly worried had Democrats lost that judicial election in Wisconsin, because that would have been, I think, game over.

The fact that Elon Musk poured 30 million plus plus plus into it, and they lost, I think is a big deal. If Democrats can win back the House in the midterms, and the elections go off without a hitch, then I will feel pretty confident. That said, there needs to be a huge reckoning within the Democratic Party. The gerontocracy has to be dealt with. They need to elevate people who are good communicators

and not just their friends. They have a real problem with connecting with voters. I think a lot of it has to do with just their reliance on traditional media and their inability to get out of their reliance on traditional media and their inability to get out of their comfort zones. But I do think that's a real thing. I am worried still.

I think there has to be new anti-corruption laws that come into place. There has to be more focus on norms and institutions. There has, I mean, there certainly are things I'm quite worried about, but I do think that they're, I mean, I'm sort of 60-40 that it's going to be okay. You know, I wrote these pieces about what I got wrong during the 2024 cycle, and one of the things I really did discover is that I'm a little overly optimistic. So, you know, but I still see a way through I have one final question One of the things that's interesting is when we talk about politics you become very confident and come alive in a lot of ways And when you were talking about your mom, you were sort of

Regretful about what you might have done here Why is that? I? Did this book because I thought it was what I should be doing. I Don't love talking about myself. I'm not so interested in it. I'm not so interesting. And I also don't, I mean, look, I matter in the fact that there are interesting things to take from my experience, which I think can help people, but I don't love to talk

about myself. And I don't think that I am so, you universal. I grew up in a very weird way. I'm largely an only child. I'm an alcoholic, sober alcoholic, but an alcoholic. I just think my experience is very sort of siloed and weird. But I think that story is interesting, and people can relate to it. Whereas I'm quite interested in what's

going to happen in American politics, because it's going to affect all of us. All right, on that note, we'll end. Thank you to affect all of us. All right. On that note, we'll end. Thank you, Molly. Thank you. Thank you. On with Kara Swisher is produced by Christian Castro-Osel, Kateri Yocum, Dave Shaw, Megan

Burney, Alison Rogers, and Kailin Lynch. Nishat Kurwa is Fox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Special thanks to Maura Fox and Kaylin Lynch. Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Special thanks to Maura Fox and Catherine Barner. Our engineers are Rick Kwan and Fernando Arruda and our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, you get to stay at the world's most expensive nursing home. If not, you're a nepasaurus. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On with Kara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network and us.

We'll be back on Thursday with more.