On with Kara Swisher - Olympian Caster Semenya on Fighting to Run

Episode Date: November 27, 2023

Who gets to compete as a woman? And who decides whether someone is “woman enough”? When it comes to South African runner Caster Semenya, it could be the European Court of Human Rights. The two-time Olympic gold medalist has been in a legal battle since 2019 with World Athletics, the global governing body for track and field, after it banned her from competing because of her naturally-occurring higher levels of testosterone. She discusses her experience, what labels get wrong and her new book A Race to Be Myself. Questions? Comments? Email us at [e-mail] or find us on social media. We’re on Instagram/Threads as @karaswisher and @nayeemaraza Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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all backed by their expert live customer support. It's time to get going and growing with Constant Contact today. Ready, set, grow. Go to ConstantContact.ca and start your free trial today. Go to ConstantContact.ca for your free trial. ConstantContact.ca Hi everyone from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. This is On with Kara Swisher and I'm Kara Swisher. And I'm Naeem Araza. Today, we're talking about sports, which we rarely do. This whole week, we're going to talk about sports, actually.

We are, but we're picking the sports people we like. So that's how it's going to go here. It's about sports, but it's also about the regulation of sports and what we think about competition and equity, equality, and inclusion in many ways. We're going to have a conversation with Kastor Semenya. This is a champion middle distance runner from South Africa. She is the two-time Olympic gold medalist and a three-time world champion in the women's 800 meter. But as she says in her new book, The Race to Be Myself, that's probably not what captured people's attention. It's that she seemed different. Yeah. I think one of the issues was around a condition, a genetic condition. She was born with high testosterone,

and it's called hyperandrogenism, which is sort of a catch-all term. People have used other terms. She doesn't like most of them, like intersex, et cetera. But basically, she has XY chromosomes instead of the typical female XX. This is something she was born with. So she wants to compete. And of course, as usual, a group, especially the World Athletics President, Sebastian Coe, has got to have a say here. It's very unusual. I mean, even sitting here taping this, it feels awkward to be discussing our guests' medical history and gender, sex.

I think it's a strange conversation to have. And I really feel for Kastor because as she describes in this book, she went in for what she thought was this routine. She thought it was a drug test, really. Exactly. People with this condition, particularly what she has, this 5-alpha reductase deficiency, a scientific term, it's not unusual that they may not know about their condition growing up because there's nothing that could be visible or seen. could be visible or seen. And then in 2009, when she was 18 years old, she was already a world class runner. She pulled in for what she thought was going to be this drug test, and it ends up being her first OBGYN exam, basically her first gynecological exam. And then quickly makes its way into global papers, and it's pretty shocking. Pretty shocking. And I think one of the issues is, as we debate the issues around trans athletes, which of course has become a Republican talking point, largely because the bathroom thing didn't work for them.

So they try to find some other way to be vile to trans people. You know, she gets dragged into this because she's a world-class athlete and is incredibly gifted. And in this case, it makes it very confusing because this is genetic. This is who she is. And so, again, the attempts to regulate her are laughable in many ways. I find it laughable in all ways, actually. Well, we should be very explicit here that Castor is not trans, as we said. No.

This is a very separate situation to the Republican talking point, as you called it, of trans sports. But there is a shared cause in understanding how sports are defined and how women's sports, who gets to play, basically, in women's sports. You know, not to quote Lady Gaga, she was born this way. And so what happens here? You can always quote great Lady Gaga on the show. Yes. She is so dignified and such a great athlete in the face of whatever this group has been trying to attack her for so long. And I say attack and I don't say that lightly. It's inexplicable what has happened to her. It's a really tricky topic because sports is entertainment. It's fun, but it's also competition.

And it's also women's sports is by definition an exclusive category, right? And one of the things that has been shocking to me in seeing some of the work that we did at the Times, in particular, Lindsay Krauss's work, is the extent to which women's bodies are policed in sports. Compared to men's bodies. And I think that's the question is why is that? And of course, we all know the answer, but- Why is it, Kara? Sexism. Sexism, once again. Oh, God. Thank you. Once again. And I think it is, nobody polices men like this. And many of them have genetic

anomalies, right? A lot of them. You could say that, you could figure out a lot of them have it. And of course, they're hyper-focused on sexual parts. And so, because this is what happens. We first started talking about Castor back when we were at the Times in 2020, I think. What did you find so intriguing or what did you relate to in her story? Dignity, her dignity throughout it. Dignity and her athleticism and love of excellence. I really appreciate someone who just really, she loves to run and it shows, and she just has dignity. Yeah.

And she also has like, she's also a winning athlete, right? And she has a desire to win and she has fought the World Athletics Organization, formerly the International Association of Athletics Federations. She has fought the President Sebastian Coe. She's now moving her case

from the Court of Arbitration for Sports, so the sports category, to a broader human rights court. And let's see if she wins. She wins a lot. So that is going to be a big question we have for her. I certainly hope she wins. She deserves it. Let's take a quick break, and we'll be back with Kastor Semenya. Fox Creative. This is advertiser content from Zelle. When you picture an online scammer, what do you see? For the longest time, we have these images of somebody sitting crouched over their computer with a hoodie on, just kind of typing away in the middle of the night.

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Learn more at www.nissanusa.com slash 2025 dash kicks. Available feature. Bose is a registered trademark of the Bose Corporation. Kester, thank you for joining us. Your book begins with a very powerful prologue where you detail your accomplishments, winning two Olympic gold medals, being the winningest athlete in the 800-meter distance of almost four years. And then you say, quote, unfortunately, it is not what I have achieved on the track that has likely brought me to your attention. Your book is called The Race to Be Myself. Let's talk about myself. I know people try to define you in ways and with labels. I want you to tell listeners how you

define yourself. How I define myself, I define myself, I'm cast out and I'm a woman. So that's what I define myself and that's my identity. I'm a strong woman. I'm a masculine woman. And I love everything about myself. I love my life. And people need to understand that when you know who you are, when you know what you stand for, it's about knowing also your personality

and also knowing your purpose of life. I always believe that I'm the change. I was brought in this world for a reason, to educate, to guide, to make sure that people understand their basic rights. So for me, I'll say I'm a woman and I'm fast. Right. So one of the things that you have been defined by others, and you have rejected those labors, whether it's intersex, there's a whole bunch of them, right?

Why have you rejected them? Explain for people to understand. No, that's not a rejection. Okay. It's knowing who I am. You have to understand one thing about life. Other people's opinion of me is their business, not mine. What stands the most is that knowing what I am, knowing who I am, you understand?

And it's very simple. And it's a very simple statement that I always portrayed out there to say, I identify myself as women and identify myself as a different woman. And it ends there. How you identify yourself is always your business because that's how you feel. And that's what you see. That's how it makes you feel, you know, happy. And, you know, how people label themselves, I always tell people it's up to them.

It's their choice. And I can never let anyone define me, but I will define myself, how I see myself, how I see, you know, how I want to live my life. You get what I'm saying? So the definition of those labels, if that's how they see it, it's not how they see it. It's a language that they use scientifically. It's okay. That's why even in the book, I explain that. Yeah. Let me read that. Let me read that portion. The things I did not know about my body, I found out along with the rest of the world that I did not have a uterus or fallopian tubes.

Newspapers reported I had undescended testicles that were the source of my higher than normal levels of testosterone. They went on to call me a hermaphrodite. In my culture, the term does not apply to people like me, but the world media forced a label on me, and that is what I'm called to this day. I talk a little bit about that, this idea, first of all, that you found out with others, and that it was forced upon you, because I think it's a really interesting idea of why people felt the need to define you. I think people, when they try to diminish you, they try to take you down.

Remember then I'm 18 years of age. I'm in the wealth stage. And when people are threatened by success, of course, they always come up with ideas of trying to discourage you, try to make you feel like you don't belong. But I knew myself. I knew what I stand for. So even if people came and labeled me, say whatever they wanted to say, remember it's their opinion, not my opinion. The opinion of myself, it's me. It's what makes me happy.

It's what drives me. So for me, I always say, because I remember I mentioned that I see it as a joke because at the end of the day, that has got nothing to do with me. That's their assumption. That's what they feel like it's right for them. But for me, no. No. Okay. So when you were growing up, I'm interested because you grew up in a conservative community. Your family accepted you were basically, quote, a tomboy. I was called a tomboy when I was growing up. It was not meant in a positive way in the United States, at least.

Of course. I'm remembering being told I had to wear dresses and play with dolls and I threw the Barbie across the room. I know, I know. And I just didn't. And it was really, it was sort of negative. You did not experience that with your family. Remember, for me, I've always been strong.

I've always been fair. I've always been fearless. So I stood for what I believe it was right for me. And for me, there was no way if my mom does not tell me to wear a dress, I'm going to wear a dress. You hear what I'm saying? So for me, it has always been about me feeling comfortable in what I want, no matter what dresses or what. If I wanted to wear a dress, I'll wear a dress. But it shouldn't be someone suggesting that I should wear a dress.

And that didn't happen when you were growing up? It did not happen. But I decided to wear a dress when I wanted to wear a dress. I remember when I moved to my grandmother's place, I was like, you know what? I want to experience, you know, this new life, see how it feels for me to be wearing dresses and like that. I wore those dresses for certain months and I feel like, you know what, this is not me. This is not what I like.

I'll go back to wearing my shorts, you know, wearing my trousers. And there's nothing wrong about it. The community accepts you if you do not question yourself. Right. So let's fast forward to that because, so you had not questioned that until you were 18 in 2009, the World and the World Organization confronted you about your gender after you won gold in the 800 meter race at the World Championships in Berlin. Rumors circulated, not rumors. It weren't really rumors.

They just were talking about it out loud. The International Track Governing Body called World Athletics. It was then called the IAAF. Put you through gender testing. Yes. You went in for what you thought was a drug test, correct? Of course. Yes, yes.

You wrote this, Afterward, I learned that I had an XY chromosomes rather than typically female XX pairing and high levels of testosterone produced by undescended testicles I didn't know I had. Talk about that experience because you went in thinking one thing, and then this was forced upon you, this test. The test, of course, it was forced upon, because if you go into any test, and then you think

it's a doping, and you get there, you get surprises, you'd be like, oh, what's this? And when I exchanged words with the gynecologist then he tells me like yes because these are gender tests I was like okay if it's gender test then fine let's do it because at the end of the day for me as a woman I am I got nothing to hide you understand I remember after that he said the results might be you know slightly different I say look, I'm happy with the person I am. Any results that come upon it, I'm going to take it because at the end of the day, what I know is that I'm a different woman. You understand?

Which is the term you use, a different woman, correct? Yeah, I'm just a different woman. That's the term because I'm different. Of course, you know, I'm not going to label myself to be something that I don't believe in. Right. Talk a little bit about the test, though, because you said, I would say I was being treated like an animal, but I grew up tending to my family's livestock and we treated them with more respect than that. When these results came out, supposedly, they say, you know, it was accidentally leaked. There's no freaking way you can accidentally leak the results. It was released for a purpose. And the purpose about it was for them to get into my head,

to make me feel like I don't belong, to make me feel like I'm in the wrong spots. You know, I'm not woman enough. No, for me, having high testosterone level don't make me less a woman. For me, not having a uterus, excuse me, does not make me less a woman. If I don't have a vial of penchant, it don't make me less a woman. At the end of the day, those are just things that I was born without. Right. Now, as you know, they dispute that was an intentional leak. You were alleging that.

Yeah. Yeah. Of course. In this treatment, was this a surprise to you or you were expecting it? Had it been growing? Of course, I expected it. I expected it because once I discovered that, you know, this is a gender test, I knew there was more coming. And I prepared myself for that. And I knew when it was leaked before the final, I was like, oh, they're trying to get into my head. They think this will disturb me.

And in my mind, I was like, if anyone wants to stop me to run, they will come drag me off the track. You understand? And for me, my mentality, it was, you know what? I'm going to stand firm, go compete, win the gold medal. If I win the gold medal, if whatever position I get is whatever position I get. And that's it. You had no idea they would find that, right? No, you can't have an idea of that because...

Because you had never had these tests. I never heard about these tests. I've never heard about this condition. But when I heard about it, no, I embraced it because that's me. That's myself. I love everything about myself. And I told myself I'll never change for anyone. I'm going to ask you, can you process that moment for us when you, was it like, oh, all right, it was just a piece of information? Yeah, it was just a piece of information because end of the day, they've done me a favor. They've done me a favor because if maybe I didn't do that, if I didn't go through those tests, I was not going to discover that up until, you know, I find my own time to do that.

And for me, I think it's just a leaning curve to educate people out there to say, look, there are people who are different out there. There are people with differences. And you must just accept your differences and live your life. At the end of the day, you are not a mistake. At the end of the day, God created you for a reason. There is a purpose for your life. Live for your purpose.

All right. So after Berlin, the World Athletics governing body suspended you from competing. And they said due to hyperandrogenism, which is characterized by higher levels of testosterone. Talk about the options you had at that point. They wanted me to do a surgery. It was only one option, remember? One option, surgery or you walk away. Yeah, or no racing. No racing.

Yes. Right. Right. And I was like to my team and say, look, there must be other option than doing all the surgeries. And my gynecologist came up with an idea to say, look, yes, maybe we can have a treatment that she can do. And then we went down. That was in consideration. This is hormone therapy. Yes, this hormone therapy.

To bring the levels of testosterone down. To take the level down. And it was agreed that I must be 10 or below. You understand? I was like, OK, I'll try it. And then they gave me that six months and we immediately jumped into it and we tried to make it work and then it worked then they got me back to competition then between those years that five years we did that yeah but it was a sacrifice

because you do things out of desperation because you still want to be in the game. You still want to be running again. So for me, I did it because I wanted to run. It's not just because I wanted to take this medication to do anything. Nonsense. I wouldn't do that if I wasn't desperate to get back to the track. Okay, so you took six months for the drug to settle in, but you kept racing. And you said you were never the same after Berlin.

It did get into your head and your body, and that you weren't the caster your parents knew and raised. And you wrote this. How do you explain how it feels to be recategorized as a human being, that one day you were a normal person living your life, and the next day you were seen as abnormal? Talk about the impact of the drugs on you. The impact of the drugs, you know, they were awful.

They often made me sick. You know, you have a burning stomach, panic attacks. Of course, it started creating, you know, a little bit of blood clots. You can't sleep. You're always stressed. You have this anxiety. You're never happy. You know, you're always stressed, you have this anxiety, you're never happy, you know, you're just unhappy every day. And you eat a lot, you gain a lot of weight. You know, those are the

things that, you know, of course, my gynecologist explained to me to say, look, we're going to limit it. The only thing that we're doing this is because you only want to do Olympics. Right. You wanted to compete. Yeah, I wanted to compete. The only thing that, the only reason for us to take the medication, it was because we wanted to do 2012 Olympics. And after that, the option was for me to walk away. And for me, I was like, I'm not going to walk away anytime soon because I still have a lot of things to accomplish.

But it was never easy. I'll explain it as hell. It's like for me, I digged a hole that I can never fill up. I was walking into a tunnel that is dark. You know, there's no light in the end. So it was hard. But I had to learn through the process to say, you know what? I'm going to do it.

I had to learn through the process to say, you know what, I'm going to do it. Whether it's hard, whether it's not easy, whether it's all those odds, I'll make sure that I conquer through that. I think for me, I've always been that person who always believe in yourself, always make sure that I make sure that if I touch something, I finish it. For me, if I have to go run with this thing, I'll make it work, even if it's difficult, but I'll make it work. Was there a moment, though, when you thought, I can't do this? You know, especially from a psychological point of view.

Of course, there are times where you feel like, you know, what the hell am I doing? Why am I even doing this? Because it does not make me happy. Because remember, for the longest, I was never happy. I was just doing it because I want to run. So you competed at the 2012 Olympics where you were taking the drugs and then took home a silver medal that was later revised to gold. We'll get to that in a second. And then in 2016, you raced without drugs because an Indian athlete, Duti Chand, with high testosterone, filed a claim against IAAF and won a temporary reversal until the organization can prove that high testosterone gave women an unfair advantage. Talk about tossing the drugs and entering the 2016

race and how you felt. Oh, it felt great. I was happy. I remember I appreciated, you know, what Dudi Chan did. And I was like, you know what, if I had courage, you know, like that, I'll say, yeah, you know, I could have saved a lot of lives out there. And for me, when that happened, I was like, you know what, I'm just going to go with the flow. You know, I stopped taking the medication. And then I go back to the drawing board.

Then I start training hard. And I told myself, you know what, from now on, because I know these people are still going to go back to the court, I'll make sure that everything that I touch, I destroy. So you won the gold for the 800 meter outright in 2016. So after the Chan case in 2017, the IAF, now again World Athletics, published research claiming that women athletes with high testosterone levels had a competitive advantage. What did you make of this? Because they continued to fight on this issue.

It's nonsense. There's nothing as such as that. It's just a makeup research because testosterone, to be honest, does not play any role in any performance because why I say so. If you, especially genetically, if you're born with it, it's elevated. It's just elevated because based on their studies, because you have the disorder or whatever they call it. So it's just there in your body, does not play any role because if it played a role, why as women 800 meters, we can't run 141.

Right. You tweeted this, that this is international athletic rules would only allow you to train for short sprints and long distance races due to your testosterone levels, not the 800, which you were dominating. Now, in 2022, you tweeted about the ridiculousness saying, so according to World Athletics and its members, I'm a male when it comes to 400 meter, 800 meter, 1500 meter and 1600 meter than a female in the 100 meter, 200 meter and long distance events. You did some emojis. What a research. What kind of fool would do that? I'm not on that Twitter at the moment, but I think it's all about just saying to people

to say, look, people sometimes are just crazy. They make up things that they don't even understand what they're doing. But obviously in terms of that, I was just showing that the research these people, you know, are saying they've done the research, that's not good enough research. Because if you're saying women with high elevated testosterone, you know, have an advantage, there's no advantage because even if the results, you look at the results, times and everything, we don't even run close to men's time. Actually now women are running times close to men times. Now, as we speak, you see at women's at 1,500, they're running

349. I can't run even close to that time. I couldn't run close to that time. But you're telling me I have advantage. It just shows you that when people are discriminatory, people are racist, people are focused on, you know, one part of the world to destroy, they will do that. And for me, I always raise the question to say, why regulate women's sports? You understand?

If we embrace genetics, why embrace men's genetics only? Right, we're going to get to that. We're going to get to that in a minute. So you've been fighting world athletics in various courts for several years, but recently you moved the cases from sports court to human rights court. Why was that? I do that because I fight for what is right. You know, IWF need to start learning how to respect people, how to respect humans. I think

first, before you can do any regulations, you need to look at, you know, human rights, you know, first. You need to treat people with respect and dignity. And then for me, my main purpose and goal is to make sure that no one has to go through what I went through. People should be respected for who they are. People should be accepted for who they are. You understand? For me, that's the only reason to make sure

that those who cannot fight for themselves, those who cannot voice out, those who are not vocal enough, you know, I fight for them. And it's my purpose, it's my responsibility to make sure that all those young girls are protected. So in July, Europe's top human rights courts ruled that you should have another chance to appeal the World Athletics Testosterone Regulations. What's next in this battle? And I'd love you to comment on Sebastian Coe, why you think they're being so

stringent here, I guess. That's a kind word. When people are threatened by women's success, that's what they will do. You understand? Because at the end of the day, I don't know what his agenda can answer on his behalf. But at the end of the day, he needs to go work his brains. You understand? He needs to start thinking like a human because at the moment, I don't know what he thinks he's doing. I don't know what he thinks. He tries to prove to people to say you're supporting women, you know, women's sports. He's not doing that. If he wants to support women's sport, he must step out of that position and whoever that is in the board, those two women that in the board, that are board members, let them run the show and see what they will do for women. That's what I can say at the moment to him. But my point is, I'll always ask that question, why is it so important to him to

regulate women's sports? Have you talked to him directly? No, I can't talk to that. I don't talk to idiots. Okay. Have you tried to talk to him? No, we once pass on. We greeted each other, but he's acting like a fool. So he's a grown-ass man

that needs to start understanding how to respect women, how to treat women with respect. Wow. You know, Kastor, I found that mostly it's grown-ass men who act like children, but that's different. So what's next for you in this battle? Where does this go then? The battle still continues. We still fight for diverse inclusivity. We still fight for what is right. But at the moment, we know that a Supreme Court may appeal. They have a right to do that. We will just wait for that. If they take it to the

high chamber, we still do the same thing. We still continue on fighting for what is right, but making sure that we rectify these mistakes where men rule women's spots. So why do you think these regulatory bodies police men's bodies and women's bodies differently? Because it's always about men thinking that women don't belong in sports. It's always about, you know, men trying to, you know, paint a picture of how women should look like based on them.

So that should stop. Paint a picture of how women should look like based on them. So that should stop. This is the modern era where women are involved and they've allowed women to partake into sports. They should start respecting women's sports. They should start allowing women embrace their bodies, enjoy sports. So for me, that's what I can say. But till women come together, we as women come together, fight for what is right, make sure that we stand for one another, this nonsense will

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LegalZoom is not a law firm and does not provide legal advice except for authorized through its subsidiary law firm, LZ Legal Services, LLC. So you've tried to, interestingly, I really want to read from your book. You've tried to create your biological differences with other genetic gifts of athletes. Let me read from the book. gifts of athletes. Let me read from the book. Yet they thought nothing of cheering on the seeming inevitability of wins by genetically gifted athletes like the sprinter Usain Bolt, who boasted a stride that's far longer than his peers. No one suggested Michael Phelps' dominance in the pool was unfair, and he should have to take medications to ensure that he produced just as much lactic acid as his competitors, or have surgery to fix his hyper mobile joints.

Do you think there's anything different about gender because it's more complex or just one more physiological feature? I don't think there's no differences when it comes to that because we all build differently. If you look into sports, only men should be the ones who are gifted, should be the one who embrace their genetics, should have all these supernatural powers. But then women, when you're born with your differences, maybe high testosterone, it may be whatever it is, there's something wrong about it. At the end of the day, sports can never be fair. Sports has never been fair because we all come from different backgrounds. Genetic background or different genetic advantages and disadvantages.

All of us, genetic advantages. So that means when you are a different woman, you are not woman enough. Right. But when you are a different man, you are man enough. You get what I'm saying? Should world athletics be the definer of women's sports? No. Or who should define it?

We as women, we should define that. They must allow us to come in, have discussion for us to have a say as women. Not them getting to a final decision to say, this is what women should be considered. This is how women should look like. At the end of the day, men and women, we come with our own differences. But one thing that I know is that we are all human. We are all here for one purpose, one common goal, is to entertain people in sports. Sports is made for entertainment, nothing else. So given women's sports is an inherently protected category, can and should it be inclusive? Women's sports, by definition, is exclusive. Yeah, but why should we protect women's categories?

That's my question. What's the reason behind protecting women's category if we say sports is for all women. Right. Regardless of what women, because if you are born a woman, you are considered a woman. Don't come here to me with biology telling me because of you have high testosterone, because you have low estrogen, or you have, you know, you don't have uterus, you don't have fallopian tube. That does not make me less a woman. Right. because you have low estrogen or you have, you know, you don't have uterus, you don't have

vile opium tube. That does not make me less women. Right. So do you think they have talked, World Athletics has also talked about a separate inclusive category, possibly in the future, separate from women's and men's sports. Do you think that's a good idea? That's never going to be a good idea because you can't categorize women. Why categorizing women? They must go start with categorizing men by their size, by their height, by the length of their arms and all those things. If they can do T1, 210, 220, I'll respect them.

Because they're cowards, they always come after women because we as women, we are not designed to be great. We are designed to carry babies. We are designed to carry babies. We are designed to cook for them. We are designed to iron for them. That's how they define us as women. Just because now we're coming into sports, we're coming and we're equivalent to them, we're doing great things, we're breaking records, it's a problem. So it should get into their mind to say, if we're saying sports is for all, do that. And if you want to regulate, come, do sanction events, come, and we must be in the conferences, hear us out, how we feel about how you treat us as female.

So it's obviously become a hot button issues and many people, I'd be curious to see your story is something about trans inclusion also in sports, which let me be clear, you're absolutely, it's a biological issue with you, but you share a lot with the cause of trans athletes in that your gender non-conforming is how they would describe you, but it's completely different. Talk a little bit about how it represents it, because it's such a hot-button issue here in the United States, for example, and has really gotten traction. For me, it would be unfair for me to talk on behalf of trans in a community.

I don't have a problem with trans community. I love them. I love them as my own. But at the end of the day, we need to have a definition between, we draw a line between biological and transition. It explains itself. And I can't go further than that. But I support them.

I think they're special. I think, of course, they should be included in sports. And if you talk about regulating, I can't say anything about how to regulate because I don't know how to do that. But what I know from the bottom of my heart, I support them. I love them. And I think they should be included in sports. You know, those who think they're the best in regulating, they need to sit down with, you know, trans community and discuss the issues rather than disrespecting them. So the world is a different place than in 2009. Obviously, youth culture has become more accepting of gender differences, certainly. Although it does feel like we're also moving backwards. Do you overall think we've moved forward or backward? We are not moving forward because when it comes to that, especially in women,

we are always suppressed. People suppress everything that women do. Instead of allowing women into sports to lead, allowing women into everything, maybe political or anything, we are not given opportunities to govern, you understand? Only thing that we're being given is just to be in the mix. It's all about gender equality based on the number of women that should be in. We're not given authority. We're not given a chance to showcase that we as women, we can be the change as well. We can do as well as men.

For me, I think if we are given that opportunity to do that, I'll see a movement. But do you see it moving backwards or forwards? I see backwards myself. Me, I see backwards because there's nothing happening. It's just all about talks, talks, talks, talks. But we as women, we need to just be there for a picture to be part of it. But when it comes to us making decisions, no. It's backwards.

We're moving backwards. There's no improvement. So one of the things you wrote about, and especially, and it's a depressing thing, but you wrote that others with DSD, which is differences in sex development, have attempted or committed suicide because of how the world has treated them. And that has caused you unbearable mental anguish. What do you think ultimately got you through it? Because in your book, you talk a lot about the role of your wife, Violet Rasaboya, has played.

I think when you are in a situation like this, you're going to need strong love and support. You're going to need people who appreciate you, people who will make you feel special, people who make you feel your existence, you know, means a lot, you understand? And most of time when we go through these times, you find yourself alone, you find yourself isolated, You find yourself, you know, in a space where you can't even communicate with anyone, you understand? And that leads to a mental problem, you know, mental disturbance, wife or your husband or it may be, and that love and the support that you get, it strengthens you. It keeps you going. It makes you to feel like there's still a reason for you to live. So what has motivated you more? I recall when I was called a tomboy, it was anger.

I was pissed off. I was like, it made me so angry rather than anguished. I was sort of like, yeah, really? Of course. Some people are motivated by support around them. You were more motivated by what, if you had to say? Would it be anger or determination or? For me, I think for me, I get motivated by rejection because, you know, when you reject me, it shows that I'm the best in the game.

There's something good I'm doing about myself because sometimes people, they're scared of rejection. For me, I like being rejected because it helps me build myself. It helps me go work hard. It helps me go improve whatever I need to improve, you know, in life. It helps me to also want to be the change, you know, to bring change. Also, it helps me to treat people with respect, dignity. It helps me how to love, you know, how to care, you know, and how to support. It does not mean because I'm being rejected by two people.

Two percent in the world that rejects me, it means nothing to me. I'm being loved by 98. So why should I care about the two percent that is going to tell me you are a man? The two percent that is going to tell me you are not woman enough? No% that is going to tell me you are not woman enough. No! 98% is telling me, Kasta, you look beautiful. We like you the way you are.

That should motivate you. That means when you are rejected, that's where you turn that into positivity because it's just that small negative thing that can just turn things into wrong. But for me, I cannot allow that. It makes me feel good. It makes me feel present.

It makes me feel valuable. It makes me feel that I matter the most because people talk about me. Even if they talk bad, I don't really care because I know what I stand for. So you have two baby girls. I have children. I have four kids, have two baby girls. I have children. I have four kids, but two of the same age as yours. One born last year. So congratulations, by the way.

Thank you. I try to think of who motivates me, and I would say it's my kids. Of course. Are you hopeful or hopeless for the next generation's ability to be themselves? No, I'm hopeful. That's what I'm teaching to my kids. As well as now, I'm a parent. Those kids, they teach me how to be a good parent. They teach me how to love. They teach me how to care, how to appreciate, how to accept, you know, all those things. But most

important thing, they teach me how to make them happy. You understand? But what I'm going to do is to make sure that I support my kids in any how. It does not matter what. And I'm going to allow them to explore themselves. I'm going to allow them to be who they want to be. Do they run? Not yet. They're doing swimming. I hope they don't run.

Why? Why? No. I hope they don't run. Why? No, I don't like it for them to be in a sport that I've done and then do the sports that I've done, how I've been treated in the very same sports. As they are women, I don't want them to go through that. But if they want to run, I'll definitely welcome that. I'll help them to become the champions that they want to be. But at the moment is that I hope they don't do athletics. Well, they can run in circles.

Toddlers run in circles. They can run in circles. They can run with me. They can train with me. But competitively, I hope they do something different. Swimming, golf, tennis, squash, badminton, you call it. If they want to go to motorsports, it's fine. They can do that.

Motorsports. Okay. And what about for you? What's your next thing? For me, my next thing is I keep on fighting the case. Of course, that's the main goal. But now, as I run the foundation with Violet and the club, we are running developmental programs, which is the main goal.

That's where we want to see ourselves making sure that we build these humans. We make sure that they're great athletes and they're great future. You know, they have a great future. They are going to be those great leaders in future. So for me, that's the main goal. All right. Castor, you're a real hero to me, I have to say. And I really appreciate all the efforts you're making. I'm so sorry you're having to fight on everybody's behalf. I'm glad it's you doing it. Thank you. If not me, who? I really appreciated two things in that conversation. One was the intersectionality of the causes, that duty chance fight connected with Caster's fight, that Caster's fight,

which is not the trans fight, does connect with this broader push for inclusion in U.S. sports. But two was hearing you connect to Caster's story. It was interesting to hear you talk about being a tomboy. I didn't know that was such a negative term. Oh my God, it was terrible. When I was growing up, a tomboy was a really cool thing. No. No? Joey from Dawson's Creek? No, it was terrible. When I was growing up, a tomboy was a really cool thing. No. No? Joey from Dawson's Creek? No, it was not cool. Well, you made it cool, Kara.

Yeah, I guess. What are you, a boy? So many times. What are you, a boy? When I cut my hair short, it was even worse. It was a big controversy. Yeah. The question of what a woman is and how women should behave is obviously one that everyone has to deal with. And you get shoved.

And men do, too. Get shoved into categories that are not comfortable for most people. But everybody, this sort of group of people that insist that things don't change or people's visions of themselves don't change, continue to have wide sway in this world. And they should really just shut up and sit down is my feeling. It sounded like her childhood was more accepting in some ways in South Africa. Fantastic. Until it's actually her professional career where she starts being confronted with so much animosity. Because she's successful, right? They want to find a way to kneecap her in some fashion. And of course, her family was very, it's very unusual. I was surprised how accepting her family is having not had that. But I mean, and broader in society that they were more interested in her development and who she was versus who she should be.

And she's a badass. I loved when she said she gets motivated by rejection. I feel that too. She said, when you reject me, it shows that I'm the best in the game. And I believe that. Not every minute, but yes. Yeah, but people are threatened when you're good. Sometimes, yeah. But she really does believe in herself. And I think that. Not every minute, but yes. Yeah, but people are threatened when you're good. Sometimes, yeah. But she really does believe in herself. And I think that's born from being raised by people who believed in her and having a basic sense of decency that she has. And she's a person who, when you watch interviews, she likes to be confronted. She's not someone who wants to be soft-footed around with.

She's like, ask me the hard question on my Michael Phelps comparison, and I want to take it on. She gets more animated and excited by it. By the way, did you buy that Michael Phelps comparison? Yeah, sure, why not? Why don't we look at that? Why don't we look at his arm? Why don't we look at lactic acid?

Why do we pick this as the thing we look at, right? There's lots of people. Gender as a thing we look at. Yeah, there's all kinds of ways people have advantages in life, and so we never look at those. We just accept them for what they are. She said sports is meant for entertainment, nothing else. Do you agree with that? Part of it, yes, of course.

But I feel it is also about competition. That's why it is more regulated. It's also some kind of yardstick, right? I think it's a business. It's more fun to watch, I guess, for a lot of people. right it's some i think it's a business it's fun it's more fun to watch i guess for for a lot of people yeah um but you know again it's about excellence and that's what she she trained and she made herself excellent and uh she deserves all the awards she got do you think she'll win her court her case i hope so if all is good in the world she should well she has many supporters but including you it sounds like but also has very loud critics, including tennis great Martina Navratilova. And we actually are going to interview Martina on the topic of inclusion. She's been an outspoken critic on greater inclusion in women's sports. That interview

will be coming out on Thursday. Yeah, that'll be interesting. Someone who suffered from a lot of attacks on seeming mannish. She was much attacked for her size and her incredible athleticism when women's tennis was a much more dainty affair. Yeah, so we'll have to understand how she reconciles those to her past and her current positions. So that'll be out Thursday. And in the meantime, Carol, want to read us out? Yep. Today's show was produced by Neha Miraza, Christian Castro-Roisel, Kateri Yoakum, Megan Burney, Claire Tai, and Cody Nelson.

Special thanks to Kate Gallagher and Lindsey Krause. Aaliyah Jackson engineered this episode. Our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, you'll be running until you're 80. If not, join Motorsports. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On with Kara Swisher and hit follow.

Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Thursday with more. Support for this show is brought to you by Nissan Kicks. It's never too late to try new things. And it's never too late to reinvent yourself. The all-new reimagined Nissan Kicks is the city-sized crossover vehicle that's been completely revamped for urban adventure. From

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