On with Kara Swisher - Roxane Gay on Guns, Kamala & Media

Episode Date: August 8, 2024

Roxane Gay is a writer, editor, podcaster, and culture critic. She has published a dozen books, including the seminal essay collection Bad Feminist, which just turned 10, and the memoir Hunger — both are best sellers. She writes a newsletter, The Audacity, and is a contributing opinion writer at The New York Times where, until recently, she wrote the workplace advice column, Work Friend. Gay recently published Stand Your Ground, an essay that explores what it means to be a Black, feminist gun owner and to exercise her constitutional right to bear arms when "the Second Amendment was never meant for Black people." Kara and Roxane discuss the essay, her burgeoning media empire, and Vice President Kamala Harris’s presidential campaign. Stand Your Ground is available now as an ebook/audiobook.  Questions? Comments? Email us at [e-mail] or find Kara on Instagram/Threads as @karaswisher Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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ConstantContact.ca and start your free trial today. Go to ConstantContact.ca for your free trial. ConstantContact.ca. Hi, everyone from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. This is On with Kara Swisher and I'm Kara Swisher. My guest today is writer, editor, culture critic, publisher, another multi-hyphenate, Roxane Gay. I've known Roxane for a long time. I'm an admirer of her work, and I also was interviewed on her podcast last fall with her wife, Debbie Millman. All lesbians know each other. That's all you need to know. She has published more than a dozen books, nonfiction and fiction, which span from her best-selling memoir, Hunger, to the Marvel comic series, World of Wakanda. She's had two successful podcasts and has been a New York Times contributing writer for years.

But she started out as a blogger and writer for online magazines, and she's back in that space again with her newsletter, The Audacity, and as a curator for an e-book series. Roxanne came on the scene in a big way about a decade ago with her groundbreaking book of essays, Bad Feminist, in which she questioned whether there was a right or wrong way to be a feminist, which feminists don't like to question. For example, is she a bad feminist for liking rap music with misogynistic lyrics and pink dresses? Or in the case of her latest essay, are you a bad feminist if you're a black woman, a staunch Democrat, and also a gun owner? As we all know, U.S. gun politics are tricky and controversial,

but Roxanne is very good at teasing out the nuances between all the little boxes we inhabit and probably shouldn't. As you'll find, Roxanne is spicy, she's tough, she's funny, and she's daring, and she doesn't see herself that way. I'm excited to talk to her about guns, the political movement we are in right now, and because she's not only a strong player, but also a keen observer of the media business, we'll talk about where that's going. It should be interesting. Hi, Roxanne. Thanks for being on On. Hi, Cara. Thanks for having me on. Hi, Roxanne. Thanks for being on On. Hi, Cara. Thanks for having me on. So before we get to your essay about America's gun problem, let's go over some news things, because Roxanne, it's been a busy news month. It has been.

We're taping on July 31st. Biden is out. Harris is in. But you wrote in your newsletter, The Audacity, for once the Democrats have consistent, forceful, unified messaging. So now we know it is possible if you want to do it badly enough. Do you think that's been the problem, unified messaging? Talk a little bit about what's happening now from your perspective. There's a lot happening. will. They are perfectly capable of making change and making radical change and doing so quickly, efficiently, and in unison, which I did not previously think them capable of. And it just lets us know that they have chosen not to do this before. They chose not to primary Biden and give

Democrats an actual choice. So it's encouraging, but it's also frustrating to see just what they're capable of. And then you mean the quickness to the quickness. It happened so quickly. Now, I believe Biden probably made the decision well before it was announced because the rollout was so flawless and everyone got on board so quickly. So, you know, heads were rolling backstage, so to speak, where people were like, if we do this, you better come out enthusiastically. And we saw that. And I was glad to see that. So, talk about the idea of unified messaging. What do you think has been effective beyond the fun stuff, right? Beyond the brat and the dancing and things like, which are very delightful, but doesn't necessarily translate into votes or might or

could. But what do you think when you think about unified messaging? You know, you want to make clear that the majority of Democrats are on the same page. It doesn't mean we agree about everything. And it also doesn't mean that we are uncritically supporting Harris, which I've seen a lot of rhetoric about. Like, she's not my friend. I'm not trying to be her friend. I'm considering her as a presidential candidate. And anyone who wants to be president, you know, these are not people who are unwilling to have blood on their hands.

And so I recognize that. And instead of assuming that we are uncritically supporting Harris, instead I think that everyone recognizes we have time to really consider this candidate, to support this candidate, and to also make demands of the candidate and hopefully push her further left. And so for me, unison is just like, we all agree that she is the best choice. And we can also do more with that choice than just sit here quietly and not really engage with her. I want to talk about those differences and how that should be, because one of the things is feeling unified is a good thing, right? That it doesn't feel chaotic. It doesn't feel argumentative, doesn't feel, you know, Democrats in disarray, that kind of thing, and now it feels like they're in array. I'd love you to get your thoughts on the messaging that's happening. Right now, this Donald Trump is weird, and it seems to be working and better than democracy is at stake,

even though democracy might be at stake, but weird seems to be a better way to get to it. I'm really surprised by the messaging of weird and how effective it is. They simply cannot figure out a response to it. It has really caught them off guard. And I love that. It's also accurate. They are weird. Partly they're dangerous and racist, homophobic, transphobic, xenophobic, etc.

But also they are weird. They have weird ideas. They have weird ideas. They have weird affects. They make weird decisions. And I love that Kamala and her team seem willing to take the gloves off to ignore when they go low, we go high and just sort of go where they go. Yeah, it's very attack oriented, which I think is effective. It's very attack oriented. And it's about time because they attack and they go where they go. Yeah, it's very attack-oriented, which I think is effective. It's very attack-oriented, and it's about time.

Because they attack and they attack and they attack, and the Democrats are like, let's hold hands and reach across the aisle. No, they don't care about us. Right. Let's not. When they did Weird, people were saying deplorables didn't work for Hillary. Why does Weird work? I think because Weird feels less judgmental. I mean, it is a judgment, but

deplorables made a lot of people feel like they were unworthy of existence. And weird is just like, huh, weird. And it really puts the onus on the weird person to justify why they're weird. Whereas when you called people deplorable, they were like, I'm human, I matter. I still think that deplorable was an excellent and accurate term, but weird just seems to be more effective. Also, nobody wants to be the weird kid. Right, that's true. That's true. I did a little bit. But anyway, you've been critical also of the so-called gerontocracy, so have I. It's not just Joe Biden, right? You hit hard against Nancy Pelosi running again. Vice President Harris is 59, which is young for this gang, but isn't young like Obama was when he first

ran. Do you think this is the turning point on the gerontocracy? Obviously, Biden's calling for term limits at the Supreme Court. There's a lot of activity going on there, and there is sort of a passing of the torch, whether she's as young. Talk to me a little bit about gerontocracy and your thoughts on it. You know, it's interesting that you bring up Kamala Harris's age because 59 is relatively young, but it isn't someone in their 40s or even early 50s. But given what we've been dealing with, it's an improvement. And I certainly believe that people of any age have lots of things to contribute. But when we decide that only people of a certain very advanced age can lead this country, there's a problem with that. It overlooks a great many younger politicians

who are ready, willing, and able to step up. And everyone underestimated Vice President Harris. I think everyone underestimated her. She has done phenomenally. My parents, who live in Florida, were not excited to vote for Biden. My father, in particular, was going to, I think, leave that blank because he certainly wasn't going to vote for Trump. But they watched Harris in Atlanta, and they were energized by her. And they are 78 and 75. They thought she was wonderful. They

thought she was exciting. It seems like everyone is just interested in something different. It's not only about age. It's a fresh face. Right. Why talk a little bit about that underestimating, because I've known her since she's been district attorney. And I kept saying that to people. I'm like, she's fantastic in the room, right? And she's just, and I don't agree with her on everything. We've had lots of beefs about, I thought she was a little too conservative in some areas, not conservative in others, and this and that, which is fine. She's willing to engage in that way. And one of the things we did talk about when we talk is I said, your genuine self is never out there. I never see it, right? Which are actually, this is what she's like, like in my experience. You know, a lot of

people felt like she was a very good senator, very good AG, not such a good VP. It's not a great job to be good at, by the way, so let's put that into place. Why do you think people underestimated her? Was it the presidential run? Lots of white men have had bad presidential runs and then come right back. I think it was partly the presidential run, but the reality is that year that a lot of people had flawed presidential runs, and perhaps she wasn't ready then, but she's certainly ready now. I think that once she was elected vice president, I mean, the reality is that the vice president job is not the most glamorous or exciting job, but you are the second most powerful person in the world. You are ready to step up should something, God forbid, happen to the president. And so I believe that once she was given that responsibility, she prepared herself to be ready for her moment, particularly because of Biden's advanced age. age. And, you know, 81 is older, but it's not the end of the line by any stretch of the imagination. So she quietly bided her time. And she has nothing to lose at this point. Trump is capable of

anything he can say and do whatever without consequence. And she realizes that. So why behold herself to rules that don't apply to the other candidate. And yet she's doing so with a reasonable sense of decency. She's not just letting her freak flag fly unfettered, but she is saying, yes, I'm going to fight fire with fire. Yes, I am ready for center stage. And presidential candidate is a vastly different role from vice president, where as vice president, you don't want to draw attention away from the president. You don't want to take up too many headlines. And so people misunderstand the position. She wasn't supposed to shine as vice president. She was supposed to do her job, and that's exactly what she did. And now her job is to shine, and that's exactly what she's doing.

Mm-hmm. One of the attack lines is she's a DEI hire, but then, of course, she just turned black, so maybe that's not true. How do you assess the attack lines they're going to use right now? And what do you think their greatest asset is on the Trump side, if you had to pick it? And where do you think their greatest problem is that they have to control themselves. And they don't know how to attack her on anything but her race and her gender. They are just completely wrong-footed on this. And it's interesting because they've now had like a week and a half or so to adjust and they still can't seem to figure out how to proceed because they have no ideas. They have no policies that aren't abhorrent to the majority of Americans. So they want to attack her as not really Black. Like, she's an AKA. Let's start there. Okay. And so, frankly- This is a sorority for people that don't know. Yes. It just makes them look, it made Trump look kind of not well. I mean, he already looked not well, but it just made him look even nuttier to say that she just turned black when there's just so much history of her identifying as both black and South Asian. And over the past two years, really, as they always do, Republicans have taken control of messaging.

And now DEI is a euphemism for the N-word. And it's a great way for them to sort of just let the racism fly. that they can be racist, that they can admit that they don't want immigrants in this country, that they can air their grievances and those grievances will be heard even if they will not be addressed by policy. They're really counting on the lesser natures of people, which is sad, but that's what they have going for them. Unfortunately, they don't have messaging going for them in terms of vision for the country because everything they do is backwards looking, apocalyptic. Well, I think it's good that finally see a presidential candidate starting to have actual policy discussions. We deserve that. And we deserve to consider those policies and critique those policies and ask questions. And so I'm excited to see her doing that. I hope that she

continues to engage in those kinds of discussions along the campaign trail. And I hope that voters also engage her. It's supposed to be participatory. What would you engage her on? Everyone's like, it's a honeymoon. It keeps going. It seems like it's a very long honeymoon. So different and so unexpected. I really just didn't think the Democrats had it in them. So I would love to engage her on Gaza and, you know, like what is the actual plan for finding a two-state solution? What is the actual plan for bringing an end to this just seemingly unending loss of life in Gaza? seemingly unending loss of life in Gaza. Yeah. And I would also love to hear her talk more about criminal justice and what she sees as the way forward, given her experience as attorney general and district attorney.

Right. And it's so interesting when people talk about her being a liberal, I'm like, she's really not. Just, I live there. No, she's, I mean, when you look at some of her decisions in San Francisco, in particular. She's down the line. She is conservative. some of her decisions in San Francisco in particular. Down the line. She is conservative.

For San Francisco, she's conservative, actually. Yes. Regular people, she's centered. It's actually interesting that she became elected there because. Yeah. Well, she almost didn't, if you remember. So that gets us in this idea of your latest essay, which I found fascinating. I'm going to read the title, Stand Your Ground, A Black Feminist Reckoning with America's Gun Problem.

There's a lot in that title, including the name of the controversial law. Talk a little about the title and your impetus for writing the essay. Yes. So I've been interested in, well, interested is not really the word, but gun violence in this country is out of control. And the topic has interested me for a long time. And my middle brother, Joel, was an avid gun enthusiast, which was always kind of weird to my family because we were not a gun family. And so we all wondered like, where did he pick this up from? And over the years, he always encouraged us to buy guns and to sort of understand the hobby and the interest and we never did. sort of understand the hobby and the interest and we never did. But during COVID, I've always gotten weird threats because of my work. But during COVID, those threats started to become very

specific, very detailed, and they started to include my wife. And that for me was a bridge too far. And so I thought, I want to be able to do more than just call 911 or throw a baseball bat at someone. And so I decided to buy a gun. But in doing so, I started to think, huh, who are gun rights actually for? Because most of our Second Amendment rhetoric is actually for white men. It excludes women and it excludes black people and black women. And so that was the beginning of the inquiry. That you're having.

I spent months. Yeah. So we had actually two years ago when you co-hosted Pivot With Me, we talked about that on Twitter, how toxic it had become for you, the trolls, the attacks. And you write in the essay about the connection between online threats and your decision to buy a gun. And you say you didn't grow up in gun culture. threats and your decision to buy a gun, and you say you didn't grow up in gun culture, I'd love to understand what surprised you the most when you started learning about it. And let me confess, I take shooting lessons. I've taken them. I do like to shoot guns. I do not own one because I have so many children, and I just don't want that to happen, anything possible to happen.

If I didn't, I'd probably own one in my home. I would. Talk a little bit about the experience, because I think a lot of people are always surprised when I say, oh, I kind of like shooting. I see the appeal. I see the appeal completely. Shooting is actually a lot of fun. And also, I like to be great at things. I'm a perfectionist. I'm an overachiever. And so when you first pick up a gun, most of the time your shooting is quite terrible. You have to deal with the recoil and figure out aim and all kinds of things. And so for me, I took it as a challenge. I was like, oh, that was lousy. I can do better.

But also there's something very satisfying about it, especially within the context of a gun range where everything is controlled. And if you are a responsible gun user um you're safe and you know it's interesting that you bring up children the only reason we own a gun is because we do not have children right if we had children it would simply be a non-starter yes exactly because like you said you just don't ever want to take that chance kids get into things it's not their fault but you know there's no safe safe enough is my feeling. There truly isn't. They're also too interesting to people.

They're too curious. Yeah, absolutely. Kids are curious. Absolutely. And they wouldn't even know. And so we would never take that chance. But because we don't have children and our dog cannot get into the safe, it was a good decision for us. Explain to people what you did and the decision to buy a gun and what you bought.

Talk about that. Yes. I decided to buy a gun during COVID. And I live in California, well, at least half the time. And I certainly bought the gun here in California. And so I went to a gun store. At the time, because of COVID, you had to make an appointment. There's a 10-day waiting period in California, which I think is great.

California is much stricter. Yeah, it is to make an appointment. There's a 10-day waiting period in California, which I think is great. California is much stricter. It is much stricter. And it's funny because I think that the laws here are perfectly reasonable. And I wish every state used what California uses as guidelines. But I did some research. My brother gave me some advice on what to buy. He was, of course, ecstatic. ecstatic. And I ended up buying a Beretta. And it was a lot of gun. And so after that, I was like, oh, this is too big. And so I ended up buying something smaller, a Sig Sauer. And the Sig Sauer, both are nine millimeters, but the Sig Sauer is a little smaller. It was easier for both my wife and I to handle. And we took shooting lessons. There's a great gun range in Inglewood called LAX Range, and they have really great instructors. And I learned a lot, and it's been fun. Talk about the people there, because when you went there, I mean, people who own guns surprise

people, I think, a little more. It's not who you think it is, although sometimes it's exactly who you think it is. Talk about how you look at yourself as a gun owner, because it's such a wide range of people, and it is a little stereotyped in a weird way, if you think about it. It is. You know, I've lived all over the country, and I've lived most of my life in rural places, and in those places, yes, gun owners are exactly who you expect. But, you know, Los Angeles is a very big, very diverse city. And one of the impetuses for the essay wasn't merely that I decided to get a gun. That's not inherently interesting. What was interesting is that I expected to only see white people at the gun range.

Right. And instead, I actually primarily see people of color at the gun range. Black people and black women in particular, also Latinos, Asian people, and then a sprinkling of white people. Part of that is because the range is in Inglewood, which is a predominantly black community. But I was just intrigued because so often

we're basically told that the Second Amendment is the purview of white masculinity. And here I had so much evidence to the contrary. Even our range instructor was a person of color. I actually don't know his exact ethnicity, but everyone that we have encountered along this journey has not been the kind of person that you might expect to see. Right.

And so that really got me thinking about, wow, who really is owning guns these days? And also, it's complicated by the reality that we talk a lot about stand your ground, but not everyone gets to stand their ground. That's correct. Especially when it comes to black people. You talked about that between the Second Amendment and your stand your ground laws give Americans the right to defend themselves. So I'd love for you to talk a little bit about that idea as a political act. Do you look at it that way?

In part. You know, it started out of entirely practicality. Yeah. Simply. The trolls scared you. Whether or not I could use it or would use it against another person, I would rather need a gun and have one than need a gun and not have one or some means of self-defense in my own home, not walking out and about, but in my house. And so it started practically. But then, you know, I realized almost everything you do as a Black person, as a Black woman,

as a queer woman, I mean, these are political acts. And we have as much right to the rights endowed by the Constitution as anyone else. Like, let's maybe take advantage of it. the rights endowed by the Constitution as anyone else. Like, let's maybe take advantage of it. And as I did research for this, and I did research for almost a year, a lot of people during the Civil Rights Movement were using guns, a lot of Black people in the South. And we often primarily hear about nonviolence.

And it's important to hear about nonviolence, because that is an entirely valid way forward. But there were plenty of Black people who were like, you know what? I'm going to arm myself. I'm going to protect myself. And violence is the only language that these people understand. So I'm going to meet them with it. So that was interesting. And yeah, that was a political act. We'll be back in a minute. Fox Creative. This is advertiser content from Zelle. Fox Creative. This is advertiser content from Zelle.

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It's an AI-powered customer platform that builds campaigns for you, tells you which leads are worth knowing, and makes writing blogs, creating videos, and posting on social a breeze. So now, it's easier than ever to be a marketer. Get started at HubSpot.com slash marketers. So you also talk about the danger for Black people to exercise the right to stand your ground. There was obviously the recent shooting of Sonia Massey. She was shot by police in her own kitchen after calling 911. Philando Castile, the Black man in Minnesota, was shot dead by a police officer during a traffic stop after it was revealed he was licensed to carry a weapon and had one in the car. You read a lot about this idea of safety and how factors like race, gender, sexuality, and wealth also play a role.

They do. There have been plenty of people, plenty of black people who have tried to stand their ground, and the ground really instead was put upon them. Just recently, and I can't remember his name, but there was a young Air Force soldier who thought someone was intruding. It was the police. He had a gun. He was standing his ground in his home, as was his legal right, and they killed him. And we have a lot of examples of Black people who owned guns legally and who used them to stand their ground, and the legal system worked against them. Right.

And so— So how do you feel in that? Do you feel that when you say the ground is not, you don't get to stand your ground? Do you think about that? I do, absolutely. You know, I'm 6'3", I'm fat, I have tattoos. There are lots of times where people mistake me for a man, even though I don't think I look like a man. It doesn't matter, though. It's how you're perceived. And so I do worry about

standing my ground in my own house and being mistaken for an intruder in my own home. It's absolutely a concern. And it's something I don't take lightly. And I just hope it never becomes an issue. Do you feel that the gun makes you less safe sometimes in that people aren't expecting you to have one, right? I think people would not expect me necessarily to have one. And it does create a sense of safety, but it also creates a sense of unease and a sense that perhaps we aren't as safe

as we would like to be. And I write about this in the essay, the thing that makes me feel most safe is my yappy little dog, who makes it very well known whenever anyone approaches the house. He is like the most vibrant little alarm system. But the gun, you know, there's some precarity there, but I find that it's a more tolerable form of precarity than worrying about all of these random threats that probably are nothing, but you never know. And I'm just no longer willing to take that chance. You may not want to, but would you give people an idea of what you mean? You've told me before,

but if you want to, what people have written to you? Oh, God, there are all kinds of things. The real threats started when I was teaching at Purdue, and I blocked this guy on Twitter. And he got so angry that he called my department chair and then my dean, and I think it went all the way up to the university president asking them to force me to unblock him. And so I went online to look him up, and he had a picture of an AR-15 as his Twitter banner. And he lived in, I think, Noblesville, which was about 40 minutes away. And so it wasn't just some random guy on the internet

hundreds of miles away or thousands. This guy was right down the road on I-65. And so I realized, I have to take this seriously. I'm teaching other people's children in the classroom. And the university did take it very seriously. And I was grateful for that. But they just continue to accelerate. And it's random people.

You never know what's going to trigger them. And it's not the one-offs. It's the guy, like there's a guy who emailed me every single day for about two years. And most of the time it was just unhinged verbiage. And most of the time it was just unhinged verbiage. And when I met my wife, it started to include a lot of anti-Semitism because she's Jewish. And that what freaked me out because it meant that they had Googled her and done research on her. And, you know, the threats became more and more specific, detailed, like, we know where you live, we see what you're doing, blah, blah, blah. And I saved everything, of course, but it just made me feel so alarmed. And of frankly, my opinions are fairly, I've been accused of being a centrist, and I don't think I'm a

centrist, but I do get that I am not as far left as people perhaps would like to be. And that's why when I get these threats, it's always like, wow, like, what exactly bothers you about something so like women or people? Most of them are from the right, correct? Oh, absolutely from the right. You know, any threats I've gotten from the left are more about like hold yourself accountable, be better. It's not even threats, it's criticism. There's a huge difference. Lecturing.

I get a lot of lecturing. Yeah, it's more lecturing. Yeah, it's a lot of sort of do better. And I hear that and I take it as well as I can. Now the threats entirely come from the right or the mentally ill and right. It's hard to even tell where mental illness ends and conservative politics begins. Yeah, well, okay.

I'm just going to leave that there. But would you say you're advocating for gun ownership when you think about it? Because there are many black communities that have worked hard to reduce the number of guns in their neighborhoods. So talk about the idea of what you're advocating gun ownership with the harms that they've created. Talk a little bit about that concept. Yeah, I wouldn't say I'm advocating gun ownership. What I am advocating is making the best decision for you and your family. And sometimes that decision does mean, yes, gun ownership. And I think people should be open to that and sort of truly educate themselves on what it means, how to use a gun, et cetera. It's not mindless. It's not

just go buy a gun by any stretch of the imagination. It's a huge responsibility and you have to be willing to take on that responsibility. I think I'm just advocating for let's think more carefully about guns. And also, also you know one of the main things that I talk about is like we really do have to eradicate access to certain kinds of weapons and if that means we all have to give up our guns I'm 100% on board right I'm fine with giving it up you didn't go for rifles and machine guns or things like that oh hell no that I have less than no interest in that no one should have access to those things no there's exactly one photo of caraholi in ar-15 I was in a store and it's never going to be seen by anybody ever.

But they're scary. I only pick it up because I wanted to see what it felt like. They're terrifying and we see what they do. We see what they do. And the violence is unfathomable. It really is. So coming back to this idea of safety though, who gets to feel safe and how? It's also a different story for women. And you'd start off the essay, the song Janie's Got a Gun from Aerosmith, fantastic song. The idea of a woman who was a victim of sexual and domestic violence taking matters into their own hands. You write in the essay, it was not lost on me that women in many states have more rights as gun owners than they do as women. The power to take a life is more constitutionally and culturally valuable than a woman's right to live freely.

I do not know how to reconcile this reality in my feminism. And you're right, we should be asking ourselves why. Talk a little bit about this. Have you found an answer to this? And do you think these two things, the attack on women's rights and women's turning to guns are connected? I don't know that they're explicitly connected,

but I don't think they're not connected either. I believe that a lot of women, and particularly Black women, feel unsafe and, more importantly, feel unprotected. I mean, look what happened to Sonia Massey. She had called the police for help. The first thing she told them was, don't hurt me. And what did they do? They did exactly what she was afraid of. And so, there's a reason why we do turn to self-protection. If we don't protect ourselves, oftentimes no one else will. And I also think that a lot of women just generally feel unsafe right now because our rights are being attacked in many states. And if, God forbid, the Republicans regain power at the presidential level, we are looking at a federal abortion ban. We are looking at an end to no-fault divorce and many other things that will only

continue to harm women. So it's no wonder women feel unsafe. And it's not, you know, oftentimes gun marketing is about like empower yourself, you know, protect yourself from attackers, but the call is coming from inside the house. Right, and you really can't shoot them. Right. The things they tell us to be afraid of are not the scary things. It's the legislation and the surveillance and all of these things that seek to curtail women's freedoms that we should be afraid of. And perhaps gun ownership allows some women to feel like they have a measure of autonomy.

They have more autonomy. I think you're absolutely right. Did you buy yourself a pink gun? I didn't. That whole marketing thing is fascinating to me. It's fascinating. There's so much pink merchandise. I mean, everything is pink, like for women, like whether we're talking about toys or dishes or vacuums.

But the gun stuff is hilarious. You know, it's so funny. The idea of a lesbian with a gun is my favorite fear thing for certain men, which is interesting. I always joke that I'm going to start a militia, Etheridge. Anyway... Nailed it. Nailed it. Nailed it.

Feminism has also been affiliated with pacifism, though. And in your book, Bad Feminist, which is a huge deal, when it came out a decade ago, you analyzed feminist ideology and the question of whether you're, quote, bad feminist for loving things that are at odds with feminist ideals. So here, too, you ask the question, as a feminist, can I justify owning a gun? What's your conclusion? Yeah, I mean, I think that we justify anything we need to to, like, sort of get through the day. But I think there are two ways of thinking about it. You know, a lot of feminist rhetoric is based in the idea of empowerment. And I actually think it's a bunch of schlock.

But there is that, that sense of taking control, of protecting yourself, of not being passive and waiting for someone to save you when you can save yourself. when you can save yourself. But because so much of what we value as feminists is trying something different, is rethinking power and our relationship to it. I do think that there is a huge contradiction and I do struggle with that contradiction. But I don't think feminists are about pacifism all the time because pacifism has not served us.

And I don't think violence is the answer either, but I do think that we do need to be more aggressive and less passive. And if this is one way of doing so, then I support that. I'm going to add one more to your title, Democrat. Democrats are gun control legislation. You mentioned it. How do you look at what you're looking for in gun control? Because, you know, there's a lot of different ways to do this, correct? There are so many different ways. And what's so disappointing is what most gun control advocates are asking for is easily within our reach, is like low stakes, like low bar, the bars in hell,

Each is like low stakes, like low bar. The bar is in hell easy, like background checks, like that we can't pass background checks. Makes no sense. And waiting periods. And perhaps, you know, like maybe we should end conceal carry. Like, do we really all need to be walking around? Or at least let's end open carry. And there's no willingness to have real conversations about what gun control could look like.

We're still sort of scraping the bottom of the barrel, like let's go for the lowest hanging fruit, and even that is unachievable. So it's frustrating, but I do hope moving forward, especially with... Do you would like background checks? Background checks? I think that there should be waiting periods.

You know, U.S. has more guns per capita than any other country in the world by a factor of two. Anyone else. We have more guns than people. And I also think, like, bullet regulation wouldn't be a bad idea. Mm-hmm. A gun is only as useful as the bullet in it. Mm-hmm. And so I think there are lots of common sense things we could do that would still preserve the spirit of the Second Amendment, which was literally written in the 18th century.

And guns were very, very different then. And needed probably for more people. So if you are opting to be armed, is that set us back? If everyone's going to say, well, if they're armed, I'm going to be armed, right? That's really where it's from. Does that solve a problem? Or is just this is the oxygen of our country is guns? It's never going away. I hope it's not the oxygen of our country. I genuinely hope it isn't,

but it does seem like it is. It does. It really does. Like it just does. When you look at the amount of money that the NRA has put into our political system. It's unbelievable. And I can't remember the exact statistic, but it is in the essay. Like 30, 35% of Americans own guns, which is to say that the majority of Americans don't. So I do believe that we can stem the tide. I do believe that, again, if we exert enough political will,

we can actually change this. We can say, oh, and also ban assault weapons, period. That should have happened years and years and years ago. So you'd like to see Vice President Harris take that on. They've tried. I would love to see her really step up and say, you do not need an AR-15. And if you do, then perhaps you should seek therapy and figure out what you're trying to compensate for. We'll be back in a minute.

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This essay on guns is part of a series Roxane Gay presents that you've launched with a subscription e-book company, EverAnd. I want to talk about your bigger media empire because you're doing a lot. We're not unsimilar. We do it in different ways. But you've become an entrepreneur, a media entrepreneur, among a small group of people, although there's an increasing number of them. Talk about what you're doing with this e-book company. So this is a partnership with Scribd. And I've worked with them before.

I wrote an essay a few years ago. And they came back and said, we would love for you to curate a series of essays. And what I loved about the partnership is that, you know, because it's a tech company, really. Scribd is, yeah. Yeah, Scribd. They have more money than a traditional publisher. And so I said, yes, I'm happy to do this, but I want to be able to pay the writers a good rate,

not just the kind of pennies that we're used to accepting. And they were willing to do so. And so it was exciting to be able to approach four writers and just say, if you could write about anything, anything you want, what would you write about? And that led to these four essays from Julia Tertian, Elaine Castillo, Gabrielle Ballot, and Ronda Gerard. And the essays are incredibly different. And the topics are? Yeah. So Elaine Castillo wrote about basically a cultural history of dog training and German shepherds and how she became a dog person by fostering a German shepherd, which is a very unique breed. It is. The Monks of Skeet is a great book on that.

Truly. And then Julia Tertian, who is a chef and cookbook author, wrote an incredible essay about taking up powerlifting and how that really helped her develop a stronger relationship to her body and to appreciate her strength. Gabrielle Ballot wrote about becoming kind of like a psychonaut and experimenting with psychedelics and how that really helped with her mental health and really allowed her to understand her mind in different ways. And then finally, Ronda Gerard wrote about becoming a parent. And her essay is written as a kind of instruction manual. And she's a Palestinian-American. And she wrote about, you know, what it means to raise a Palestinian son as a single mother.

And it's just wry and witty and beautiful. So it's whatever you feel like. Yes, whatever they wanted. Did you have a problem with publishers? You know, you wrote blogs early and you wrote for online magazines. You also write books with traditional publishers and columns with traditional newspapers like the New York Times. You've had a couple podcasts, Book in Print. You have a newsletter on Substack. We've talked about the Audacity and Book Club and Writing Academy. How does this all knit together? Is it just you got interested in e-books to add to it? How are you seeing the independent publishing world at large? You know, it's all of a piece. Like, it's primarily, I like being able to give opportunities

to other writers because I have been very lucky. You know, I work my ass off, but the reality is that it takes a lot of luck and just being in the right place at the right time. And so when I can share opportunities with other writers, that is, you know, very gratifying because there are just far too few. And so everything is kind of connected to also just articulating my worldview and my ideas and being able to put them out into the world in different ways. And so with Scribd, you know, what's great about them is that they handle all of the infrastructure. I edited the essays, I chose the writers, etc. But like, they're the ones who do all of the mechanics and really help with the kinds of stuff that, quite frankly, writers are not good at. And so it's great to be able to have that kind of partner.

With my newsletter, I miss blogging. I miss Google Reader. I left Twitter. And so it's nice. I did. Me too. I still have my name there because I don't want that asshole to take it. My name is there exactly because I don't want someone to take it.

Right. But I just decided about seven or eight months ago that I was done. I miss it, but I miss a version of Twitter that has not existed in a very long time. And so this was a small way of being able to continue to connect with people. It's not as immediate. It's not as exciting. But I do also have a little Blue Sky account. And it's not quite the same, but it's something.

You wrote an essay about TikTok, too. Yeah, I love TikTok. I don't post on TikTok, but I just watch TikToks far more than I should. Yeah. So when you're talking about this alternative route, not through traditional publishers, is it a good time to be in this space? Because I do think social media shifted the balance of creatives in a lot of ways. And people can break through quicker. It's still, if you have a great idea, you can do rather well and don't need to go through the mainstream, even though you have written for the New York Times and so have I. You don't have to. You don't have to necessarily. However, in my experience, it's easier to try independent

things when you already have an audience. When you start from nothing and try to build an audience, it is very, very challenging. And so I try to balance, like I still have my, I still write at the Times and I still publish my books through traditional publishers. And so I'm trying to balance independence with recognizing that one thing that's steady is, like traditional publishers exist for a reason. And I do think we should disrupt and try different things, but it's really, really hard. And one of the key things that we've lost with Twitter being good is like, how do you reach readers? How do you find them? Twitter does not translate into book sales at all. But it does bring attention to things you publish online.

And so even with not having that, I find it to be a bit of a struggle to find new readers. It's challenging. Will that make it difficult with your ebooks besides doing podcasts and things like that? I think it's challenging. However, I have a very good publicist. And so, you know, it's funny that I'm doing a bunch of traditional media to bring attention to this non-traditional media. I think these things work in concert. They don't exist in isolation. And it's important to recognize that you need a little bit of both. little bit of both. Right. So once we get the stuff you do, you've made decisions. One of the things is a lot of these platforms are fraught also, just like traditional publishers are. You've stepped away from outlets. In 2017, you pulled your book from Simon & Schuster after they struck a deal with alt-right figurehead Milo Yiannopoulos. In 2021, you took your podcast, The Roxane Gay Agenda, off of Spotify because of Joe Rogan. You didn't come off of Substack. They had a little back and

forth with Nazi content. Talk a little bit about this now, because there's so many different things, and then you sort of have to take a stand, and yet every platform is compromised in some fashion. Yeah. You know, the reality is that everything is compromised. Including your times, by the way. Absolutely. Oh, absolutely. You know, and I believe in making stands when and where I can. I think everyone should. But at some point, where do you go? Where do you go? And with Substack, yes, they publish some people that I find odious, the Nazis and of course the transphobes. And it's not okay. But I just don't know of any media ecosystem that does not have terrible people on it and so people keep trying to find new places but guess what the bad people follow you there and so with substack in particular i just it's not that i'm okay with some of the content that they allow published on their thing, but it just, there's only so far you can run. And all I can control is what I put on my sub stack.

And that's what I try to focus on. And it's not a popular decision with everyone, but it's my choice. You just wrapped up a four-year stint at the New York Times that said workplace advice columnist, which I think people were surprised with. You started answering questions in the workplace in May of 2020, in the early months of the pandemic. The workplace has changed a lot in that time. Any takeaways as you leave? I know you wrote a whole essay about it. I did. But, you know, it's interesting. I still think about it. And, you know, I loved doing that gig. It was fun. It was unexpected. But the thing that continues to surprise me is just how many people are unhappy professionally and how many people are trapped in unhappy or frankly, unhealthy professional situations because they need health insurance,

because they need to support their families and themselves. The things that I find that the more stable my life becomes, the more, I guess, success I achieve, the more radicalizing it is. Everybody should have access to health care. I just can't even believe it's a debate. Everyone should be able to go to work and not deal with harassment and bigotry. It's such a low bar. And yet so few people seem to have really healthy work situations. When you were writing about it, when you would get letters from people, one of the big workplace

pendulum schemes has been DEI. We just talked about earlier diversity, equity, and inclusion. We saw the pro-DEI movement in 2020, 2021. You've seen massive rollbacks in the past year. You said DEI is a euphemism for the N-word. You just said that. We talked about the Trump campaign calling Kamala Harris a DEI hire, so was J.D. Vance, FYI. As someone who analyzed and part of the social movements, did that surprise you? Because you've written about it quite a lot.

And it also impacted your first cousin, former Harvard president, Claudine Gay. I don't think people realize that. It's a strong pushback. Where do we go from here? Well, that's a good question. We're seeing pushbacks. And the thing is, change is incremental, and these things are cyclical.

However, I think that liberal people need to stop allowing conservatives to dictate how we talk about these issues. Corporations were always going to try to roll back DEI initiatives because they cost money and they require shifting attention, so they believe, from whatever their primary purpose is, like tractor supply, deciding, oh, we're done with DEI, like tractor supply, okay, whatever. I mean, that's frustrating, but expect it. But what's equally frustrating is like now liberal people like use dei as a punchline too we take their language we take their ideas and we legitimize them by using them ourselves instead of pushing back and saying you know what no dei is actually necessary critical race theory is a very small segment of what academia actually studies.

It doesn't encompass sort of everything. Right. They've managed to define the narrative. Yeah. They continue to dictate terms. One of the things I say is that the opposite of diversity, equity, and inclusion is homogeneity, unfairness, and exclusion. I said the opposite of woke is asleep. Absolutely. You can start to really redefine it for yourself. But has it been, did you expect the pendulum to swim back if, say, Kamala Harris were to be elected?

Or more retrograde as you're watching those letters come in? Well, we're currently dealing with an ongoing backlash for Obama being president. Oh, right, yes. So the pendulum is going to swing back and forth quite a few times if Kamala Harris is. That khaki suit is still pissing me off. Oh, my God. Did you see the khaki suit that Mitch McConnell wore in Congress? No, did he?

Yes. The audacity. I am offended. The audacity. I'm offended. Oh, my God. Sir, we see you. It's terrible.

But I think that Kamala Harris becoming president is going to do a lot of wonderful things. I think Kamala Harris becoming president is going to do a lot of wonderful things. I do believe we're still going to deal with some backlash toward DEI, and then we're going to see more improvement again. And then after she's out of office, the pendulum's going to swing back. It's going to go back and forth. I don't know what it's going to take to create permanent change where we recognize that diversity, equity, and inclusion are necessary. permanent change where we recognize that diversity, equity, and inclusion are necessary. But as long as we continue to allow the right to weaponize it and dictate the terms of engagement, we're not going to make any progress.

Were you surprised they attacked your cousin so strongly? I was shocked. I mean, we were so, and I remain so incredibly proud of her. She's an incredible scholar. She's an incredible leader. And that she was not given a chance, that she was not supported by her institution in the way she deserved to be, that they allowed billionaires to dictate who runs their university. But it was really devastating to see what they did to her. And after a lifetime of working in academia, a lifetime of teaching,

of working in academia, a lifetime of teaching, and many, many years spent specifically at Harvard. I really didn't think they would do it. Yeah, she became a cartoon character. She did. And she became diminished, and they diminished her and her accomplishments, and they tried to malign her and her scholarship. So last question. In your last column, you wrote this, I wish we lived in a world where I could offer you frank, unfiltered professional advice, but I know we did not live in such a world. Is it just advice, like quit your job, ask for a raise, tell your boss you don't work

weekends, or deeper, more meaningful stuff you didn't feel you could really say? Because you've been a writer, an editor, a publisher, podcast host. You've shifted jobs a lot. And so have I. I have. I have. I think it's the Caribbean in me that takes on like 20,000 jobs. I mean, you're the exact same way. I think some people just have this relentless work ethic. I think many people have it, to be fair. And those of us who are lucky get to use it to our own benefit. lucky get to use it to our own benefit. But I feel like oftentimes people are afraid to just say the real thing for a number of reasons. Sometimes there are things that frankly shouldn't be said, but like, it's hard to just tell someone like, yes, quit your job and et cetera. And I

struggle to tell people some of that unvarnished truth because I don't know the circumstances of their lives. You know, it's very easy to sit in my little home office and say, quit your job. But I don't know what their life is like. I don't know what their saving situation is like, et cetera. And when it comes to advice beyond the workplace fear, you know, I think a lot of times we're just afraid of saying the wrong thing. I think a lot of times we're just afraid of saying the wrong thing. And to our detriment at times, we're so afraid of saying the wrong thing that we actually say nothing or we say things that have no teeth, that have no consequence. And that doesn't help.

Is there anything in that column you would have liked to have said? I think you pretty much say what you think. No, I put it all out there in that column, you know, because it was my last one. I just knew that it was worth it to just say what I needed to say. And I'm very happy with how that column turned out. I'm very proud of that work. So I'm glad that in the end I said it. In that vein, what next job would you want? I want to be a New York Times columnist. I'll admit it. You do? I very much do.

You kind of are. I kind of am, but I want a permanent berth. I feel like I have interesting things to say. I think I'm too bad with deadlines to make it happen. But that's the one media job that I would very much like and or to be on The View. Oh. I think I'd be fun on The View. You'd be good on The View. Oh. I think I'd be fun on The View. You'd be good on The View. I really think so.

I'm a real... You'd have a throwdown with Joyce, wouldn't you? Oh, all the time. I feel like I could really get into it with those women. Yeah, Whoopi runs that show. I just was on it. She does. And I actually really like Whoopi.

She's fantastic. Okay, put it out there. She's so smart. Like in hacks. Yes. Put it out there. Exactly. If you're listening and you're auditioning anyone new, I'm available. Okay, put it out there. She's so smart. Like in hacks, put it out there. Exactly. If you're listening and you're auditioning anyone new, I'm available.

Okay. Well, keep that in mind. You'd be excellent. Anyway, Roxanne, thank you so much. And I recommend everybody read The Gun Essay. And just remember, lesbians with guns, they're out there. Thank you so much, Cara. It's been a pleasure. On with Cara Swisher is produced by Kristen Castro-Russell, Kateri Yochum, Megan Burney, Jolie Myers, and Gabriela Bielo. Special thanks to Kate Gallagher, Kate Furby, and Kaylin Lynch. Our engineers are Rick Kwan and Fernando Arruda. And our theme music is by Trackademics.

If you're already following the show, we'll see you at the firing range. If not, you get a very small pink gun. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On with Kara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Monday with more. Support for this podcast comes from Stripe. Stripe is a payments and billing platform supporting millions of businesses around the world, including companies like Uber, BMW, and DoorDash.

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